What you all need is cables created in a quantum tunnel, formed in zero-g space near a black hole. Only then can you truly experience audio the way it was meant to.
+o0Donuts0o LMAO! :P At least something to this effect is what some complete audio *nuts* would have you believe!... Oh, and don't forget that the "quantum tunnel" cables also have to be kept at or near absolute zero using liquid nitrogen around the cable at all times for the treble to be completely "open and airy"! LOL!... Oh, and of course these magic cables have to cost upwards of a million dollars per meter, otherwise they simply *couldn't* be as good as they could be! LMFAO!
Haha! Yeah, I agree, to a certain extent, but there is a limit before the price of "high-end" audio cables just gets exorbitantly high for no real useful reason, and the performance doesn't really get any better... I try to use cables that are right at the best curve of the price/performance ratio, especially since (I will admit that) I don't have the absolute best equipment in the world, just good enough for me, (and the best my budget will allow)... Anyway, I was just being sarcastic there above, as was the oODonutsOo guy, I'm pretty sure!
Concert halls or our houses are not anechoic chambers. Noise is everywhere. Even our ears make their own noises. In nature there is no absolute silence. All instruments produce intermodulation, noise and jitter, none can create a perfect sound. It's just a matter of "how much" is "too much". If you can't hear it, why obsess about it?
That's the best thing that the Hi End Audio industry has to sell countless absurd things at an unjustifiable extremely high prices. Can anyone realy think that the Oracle V1.5 HR Ultra Wide speaker cables costs $53,000.00 and really are good enough for that price? www.thecableco.com/Product/Oracle-V1-5-HR-Ultra-Wide
can you explain me what this cable will change (with electric and electronic laws) when you have Cap resistor and coil for passive crossover in you re speaker ?!!
I've felt my soul shivering to the dark, booming rock of "Queen II" on a muffled old cassette in a bus on the highway at 6 AM, watching the first light of dawn. I went to ecstasy watching a live orchestra making the whole hall rattle with a shattering performance of Holst's Planets on a Tuesday night. I drifted off to some sublime musical land with Boards of Canada's "Geogaddi" on my cheap MP3 player in a crowded bus on the way to college. I've explored new musical galaxies with Com Truise's "In Decay" playing off an USB stick on my (rented) car radio as I drove up the hills under red skies at dusk. Emotions are not in the music, much less on the audio format. Emotions are inside us. Every format has its charm, every experience has its worth; and when you can get the good out of every experience, there's no room for frustration. When the *music* is "high end", the noise and the distortion are secondary; heck, they can even become part of the enjoyment. So here's to all the high end music in the world, and all our shitty low end gear. Cheers!
+Fernie Canto Hear hear! Amen. I too have been ENJOYING music my whole life since my first memories with my family and friends in every situation that life has to offer. Every genre of music reminds me of certain life events, history, time, and most importantly, PEOPLE! Whether it was on my broken free earbuds I found and used for several years, the horrible rigged system I had in my $500 first car (that was the best time ever), to my current nice system in my new car... it is ALL NICE and can't live without it!
Alfonso, you are a wise man, but trust me, digital high resolution formats come very close to the perfect sound. The real problem is quality of production these days.
lets create new technology, an alternative route to measure audio directly to digital... More efficient ways of registering data... I believe that rethinking the system from scratch is necessary... How about mimic nature...
High End refers to PRICE. High Fidelity refers to the sound quality. Jitter is not inherent to Digital file based music. It is in the transmission medium of Streaming files. Playing a CD in a CD Player does not experience Jitter because it is not transmitted. The transmission Reading and Converting does not have to be synchronized in the way that series transmitted data does. Further, serial transmission of data has been going on for a very extended period of time. They are Error Detection and Error Correction down to the point where you can be assured of Bit-For-Bit perfection on the receiving end. In modern Streaming Players, there are way to reduce Jitter to nearly nothing. Next, what matters is the music and how it effects you, not the technical aspects behind it.
My audio system consists in: A beautiful pair of Martin Logan CLS IIz pure electrostatic panels, two improved ASL “Hurricane” monoblocks in triode operation, an Audio Research SP9 Mk III with a famous and remarkable phono stage, an especial and limited edition VPI/Denon DP-75 turntable with DD High Torque Motor without cogging, split heavy platter with the Achromat on it, has a very heavy sandwiched plinth (steel, aluminum, lead and wood) over four springs that are in a wood base with spikes and with a total weight of 60 pounds; includes a GST 801 Lustre dynamic “magnetic” arm and a special limited edition Denon DL-103SA MC cartridge and other things like a MHZS CD88KE CD player that has the famous Burr-Brown PCM1794 DAC chipset but also very important, a Reel to Reel Technics RS 1506 almost professional recorder/player. I own some original master tapes and back-up copies (half track, 15 ips), more on 1/4 track at 7.5 ips, some of them with Dolby B (Noise Reduction System), almost a thousand LP Jazz records and less than 300 CDs and of course a VPI 16.5 vinyl washing machine and the appropriate cleaning fluids and brushes.
+Alfonso Viladoms Puse en un comentario de que lo que Ud. dice es Exacto. Unas dos veces me pasó de escuchar música y que la batería sonara como en vivo así como voces, núnca el tema completo.
With the accurate use of dither and a bit depth depth allowing sufficient dynamic range, the jitter of digital resampling can be made negligible to the point where it is below our threshold of hearing. There is no such thing as perfect replication however, it is no longer the aim for recorded sound to present an accurate representation, but rather it presents an enhanced version. "Perfecting sound forever" by Greg Milner is well worth a read if anyone's interested in this area.
I am not seeking for a “perfect or pure sound”, since that is impossible. The point is about the current formats that are not Hi End. No one with common sense can say that listening to music with scratches, clicks and pops can be a true HI Fi audio reproduction, even with the best equipment in the world. It is important to note that these noises are only on the vinyl format, not in the original master tapes, not in the other formats and of course not in live concerts, only if are allowed the audience to eat potato chips during the performance. The Compact Disc has four times less information than the master tapes, the vinyl and the 24 bits SACD and DVD-Audio. There is no a CD player, regardless the price, that can include the information that was not recorded originally and also they cannot convey the full emotion of music, as analog. Obviously with such limitations cannot be a true Hi End format. Now DVD-Audio and SACD are dead and gone and for something would be. A real Hi-End format must be a REPLICA of the original analog master tapes that are by no means perfect, but current formats are far away from them. Maybe this link could be interesting for you: tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” Thanks for the tip of Greg Milner’s book.
THE EVOLUTION OF GREAT SOUND.....XRCD! XRCD allows the listener to hear what the producer and artist intended... the sound of the original master tape!
I own almost all the Blue Note Audio Wave’s XRCDs and their sound is the best I ever heard on the CD format, but I also own the old original same titles in vinyl and except for the scratches, clicks and pops the sound is more natural and emotive. Thanks for your comment.
Thank You Alfonso I agree with your Observations on music. I met a man 40 years ago who gave me insight on what a good sound system should sound like, This is what he said. When you go listen to a live performance then Go home and play it on your system If it sounds like the concert this is all you need in a system. Too many WACK JOBS are making money selling over the top expensive systems that Musicians NEVER intended their music to be listened on. I Love Music and seeing it live is the best. I saw and listened to Julien Bream, Igor Stravinsky perform The Firebird ballet, Sonny and Terry, Andre Segovia The Rolling Stones, John Lennon and his wife in Toronto, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison many times, Janis Joplin, Canned Heat, The Grateful Dead Etc. Now I am enjoying the bird songs in the Morning and day in Northern Thailand. The Birds are the best by far and they give free concerts. My Instrument is a Nikon and my Photos are silent. Your System is as good as you need, Anything more is a waste of money.
It's a shame you have convinced yourself that digital audio sounds artificial. The reality is that no other capture and replay system in existence can match or better the performance of a well designed digital PCM system. This is usually influenced by a misunderstanding of how digital audio works. That data in between samples is lost, or that there is a stair-step like effect on the captured audio as popularly used in visual aids. The biggest idea that most can't wrap their heads around is, how can a digital system possibly reproduce clean sound when it only has 2-3 samples per cycle at high frequencies? It must sound artificial. In fact this was solved by Nyquist and proved by Shannon over 60 years ago and if you look at the output of a DAC at high frequencies, you will see a smooth analog sine wave with vanishingly low distortion and noise that no analog system can compete with. It's not even a fair game. Jitter is also so low these days with even moderately well designed systems that you're just playing into a fantasy. Do either digital or analog recordings sounds like nature? No, a 2 channel system is unable to realistically emulate a volumetric space as you would hear in nature. That is a limitation of the recording and playback methods and has nothing to do with the actual storage of the audio. Again, it's a shame you and many others have convinced yourselves that digital is somehow compromised, when you are actually sitting on the most accurate and consistent audio storage/playback system in existence.
+dwindeyer Many people say that the sound of PCM is artificial and also TEAC agrees. The new Teac NT-503 DAC has a PCM to DSD converter because the last has better, more analogical sound: www.teac.com/product/nt-503/
Yea, I can record any turntable with a laptop and play it back to the 100K idiot and he will never know the difference. Fact. But hey, each to his own.
Jitter errors are no different than amplitude errors or noise. If small enough, they are not audible. If you sample a sine wave with jitter, equivalent errors can be modeled as amplitude errors. Double blind ABX testing can quickly determine the threshold of audibility of jitter. You can do it yourself and see what level you can hear. Every thing has errors. What matters is the size of the error. If it is below the threshold of perception, what you have is indistinguishable from perfection.
+Dana Olson As I know, jitter affects the listening in many ways and is not audible like one type of distortion. I read this on “Effects of Jitter in Audio” www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/jitter2_e.html
Time based errors in nature are caused by variances in gas density and composition, causing very muc impedance like phenomenon with the phase shift, distortion and temporal shift usually associated. "Jitter" does exist in nature too and there is no perfect sound. When it comes to digital vs analog, the moment the discussion goes to "infinite waveform" or "sound is analog", we know that the person has no formal training, does not use science as the basis for their theories and most of all; does not understand how digital audio works. It is not like analog, we have to throw away our "analog brain" and start to think more in abstracts. I've done this since the 80s, have formal education as sound engineer and electronics. I still do not understand digital sound like i do analog. Analog is intuitive, digital is anything but. Just understanding why the "stairstep waveform" we so often see is wrong takes quite a bit of understanding. Trust is the key here, just trust what science says about it and find your way to get the sound you need. I warn you, it might lead one to admit they like distortion and non linear response. Nothing wrong with that, just as long as it is not called "real, natural" or any of such nonsense.
sure - there are a number of both turntables and cartridges which are able to 'reduce' surface noise to SOME degree. for example there are some dynavector moving coil cartridges which - using a smaller stylus - sit a bit lower in the groove and manage to avoid some of the existing damage which may have been captured by the vinyl surface...
There is not a turntable, tonearm or cartridge that can reduce the scratches, clicks and pops. But yes, there are some styluses like the Shibata that can reduce somehow these noises, but there is not a needle or any other thing that can completely eliminate them.
Hi-End Audio is a whole made of several parts and if only one part is poor or bad the sound of the whole system is poor or bad. The poor or bad part is the software - sources of music - not the hardware. No one with common sense can say that listening to music with scratches, clicks and pops can be a true HI End Audio reproduction, even with the best equipment in the world. It is important to note that these noises are only on the vinyl format. It not in the original analog master tapes, not in the other formats and of course not in live performances, so what the term High Fidelity means, is not for the anachronistic vinyl because scratches, clicks and pops are faithful to nothing, unless if the audience was allowed to eat potato chips in concerts. The Compact Disc with 16 bits has around four times less information than the master tapes, the vinyl and the 24 bits SACD, DVD-Audio and most Hi-Rez files. There is no a CD player, regardless the price, that can include the information that was not recorded originally. Obviously with such limitation cannot be a true Hi End format. But the Compact Disc's superiority to Vinyl in a number of sonic parameters are precision, outer detail, speed stability, dynamic range, channel separation which means better soundstage, up to 80 minutes of continuous recorded music, no noise floor, scratches, clicks and pops; no mistracking, wow and flutter, eccentric center holes and warped discs; no rumble, hum, record wear, without corrosive dust attracted by electrostatic charges, no friction and harm of the laser beam to the disc and no wear of it, no pre or post echoes, no coloration by acoustic reflections and vibrations, easy to handle, play, clean and store and without the necessity of adjustments on the pick-up system by the user. Unfortunately, it also subtracts those aspects of the sound which are the vital essence of music; ie convey of individuality and emotions. That is why Digital is more intellectually than emotionally satisfying. This is especially true for those who are very familiar with excellent analog sound. Now, if the Compact Disc would be better in ALL parameters the noisy, impractical and anachronistic Vinyl had disappeared more than 30 years ago as the audio cassette, but Vinyl is very alive with increasing sales year by year worldwide and this is because the analog format can convey ALL the emotion and “soul” of music and many people prefer it even with pops and clicks*, than the clean but less emotive sound of the digital formats. *(By logic, only one single click and/or pop is enough to disqualify vinyl as a Hi End Audio product). Now take in mind that those who disappeared were the two modern and superior 24 bit formats, DVD Audio and SACD. So, something is wrong with digital audio. The new Hi-Rez formats are “analog-like”, their slogan. That automatically confirms the superiority of analog sound which is the reference. But how much “analog-like” are those files? Nobody knows because there is no standard or measure to determine that. More subjective and ambiguous cannot be this “analog-like” term. Many audiophiles found that the sound of these files is not as good as they should be and reject the so-called PC-Audio because among other things, computers are not Hi End Audio products, they do not have discrete circuits and premium parts with very low tolerances. Therefore, the current formats are limited, corrupted and away from the original master analog tapes that are far from perfection, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital. A true Hi End format at least, must be a replica of those masters and so far only the high quality Reel to Reel (R2R) tapes can be extremely close to them and of course with an authentic 100% pure analog sound. Because I own some original master tapes and a few back-up copies, I know the huge difference between them and any other format. By the way, the so-called Hi End Audio is only for very rich people, not for audiophiles. They want to own the most expensive things in the world that most people cannot reach and that is their real pleasure, not the music. For logic, they are not true music lovers and even they have not enough time to listen to it. More information about The “new” R2R format in tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend www.analogarts.net/project-r2r www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ www.analogarts.net/project-r2r www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/ Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier. www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback (Short article that mentions some R2R vintage high quality 2 tracks and 15 IPS of velocity). And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions: th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html Unfortunately right now the tapes are very expensive with a few titles and I hope that this reborn and improved format grow enough to down the prices.
I agree that there are limits to the storage of sound waves. I think many would say that the sound of the music on a pair of 2.99 earbuds may be worse than some 75.00 headphones. There is a law of diminishing returns that applies to music as well as many other subjects.
Only 1.6% of people tested can correctly pick 6 out of 6 songs in the uncompressed WAV file format versus a compressed 320 kbps and 128 kbps file when all three three are juxtaposed for their comparison: and with no time limit for the test. 4.5% can pick 5/6 songs correctly.
I'm not the least frustrated listening to recorded music... I can listen for hours upon hours without listener's fatigue. But I've found that possible only with tube equipment regardless of the original source of the music... I'm never frustrated and I have an extensive classical and jazz library. Tubes let some air into the music and noticeably expand the soundstage where it sounds far more relaxed and alive. I recommend that people start looking into affordable Hybrid Tube Amps and experience the difference from all solid state amps themselves. I say this as a professional musician.
I still have an Audio Research D200 Solid State amplifier with Multiple-Emitter Transistors or METs. These devices have the rugged, high-heat, high-current capability of single emitter bipolar transistors (which can have a rougher, harder sonic character), but they also have a natural sweetness and musicality often associated with MOSFET transistors (which can be more fragile and prone to failure). In short, the METs deliver the best of both worlds. This power amplifier also does not produce any listening fatigue, but later I found a pair of ASL “Hurricane” 200 watts monoblocks, 100 W in triode mode that I am using, to be a perfect match for my Martin Logan CLS IIz pure electrostatic panels. With these amps, the bass power and deepness is incredible for this kind of speakers. I am really glad with my audio system but not with the current formats. Thanks for your comment.
My Martin Logan pure electrostatic panels are really great. But even with the best speakers of the world, if you know or think which are those, is impossible to take out the annoying noises of vinyl and they cannot eliminate jitter and other flaws of digital formats.
True high end audio does not exists. Personal preference in audio does exist. If you listen to a 20000 dollar speaker and a 500 dollar speaker the one you choose to fit your musical tastes needs is the high end for you. Sorry people the only true to life recording is an true analog source recorded on true analog equipment. No way around it no matter what you say or want to say. Noise is part of life. If it's present in the recording. True every device adds noise but digital devices add artificial noises not natural to life. I love my cds and records and listen to both. But I listen to lps anytime I get a chance.
rbeez2004 Your comment is not new for me. Some others wrote basically the same thing. You can read about it here. Anyway I am going to repeat some of the things I answered before. I own an excellent HI FI system and details about it are somewhere here. Scratches, clicks and pops are inherent of the vinyl format and are not present in the original analog master tapes. The invention of the CD format was primordially to eliminate those annoying noises. Noise is not part of music. For instance, all professional recording studios over the world are isolated from external noise. In a concert hall with classical music, the audience tries to stay as quiet as is possible during performance and if someone coughs, she or he feels very badly. Neither, you can go into the hall when the performance was started. It is not allowed to talk, sing, tap your feet or clap your hands. Now if I go to a classical performance, I would like to listen only the music and I do not concentrate to hear the rustle of clothing or the breath of the musicians or if someone makes some noise changing the score page. I read somewhere about that the American audiophiles listen through their audio systems these non-musical noises and are very happy if these are present, thinking that the equipment has better detail and therefore is better. If you are that kind of audiophile, is easy to understand why you enjoy noise with the music, even in the not scratched digital formats.
I agree with Sorin below. When attending live music, there is all kinds of ambient noise. People coughing, fans blowing, musicians moving instruments about. When a musician plays the flute you never hear the pure sound of the flute, but also the noise of the breath being blown across pipe. Same with a plucked Double Bass or Harpsichord - you can hear the pluck. Digital which seemingly has absolute quiet in places doesn't seem quite right to me and can actually make me a little edgy at times. :)
Thanks for your comment. Nobody hears scratches, clicks, pops and rumble in a live concert. This is the point, the additional noise present in vinyl records. By other way, recording studios are insulated of outside noise. Engineers try to reduce all the noise that is not intrinsic in the expression of music and definitely wanted to eliminate the annoying noise of vinyl records, that is the principal reason of the invention of CD format. Best regards.
It does exist in some places. For example, the original source, there the sound has not gone through analogue processing where it can be affected by noise, and harmonic distortion, and it has not been sampled and turned digital. I guess for the purpose of perfect sound we need to enjoy it at it's source!
I think this information would be interesting for you: tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer: “Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right. We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.” I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site. www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend This is an abstract: “Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests. One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl. What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better. It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed. Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity. Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download. The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.” More sites about R2R www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ horchhouse.com/project-r2r/ www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/ (Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier or a HQ CD reproducer). www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions: th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html Thanks for your comment.
I chopped off my ears years ago and poured drano in my ear canals. I was sick of my ears not hearing in high fidelity as they are just a result of blind evolution. So stupid. I'm waiting for engineers to design something better than these idiotic ears.
One's critical hearing and contentment level with what they're hearing count for something too. Science rocks, but there are still many who still marvel and love listening to their 'imperfect formats' with great gear!
Actually, recent scientific discoveries are beginning to point to the idea that life as we know it is nothing more than a computer simulation in which we are all taking an active part. Therefore, everything IS digital and 'time-based'. Reality is quantized which means that digital reproduction is actually the most accurate way of capturing sound which itself is digitized.
It's amazing how the System uses "experts" as those because it wants us to behave like robots, without feelings, not free minds and above all to be machines of insatiable consumption. If you believe you are digital I do not blame you, but sound waves in Nature are sinusoidal not staggered and recorded sound is more natural and exciting than digital.
If I go to see a live artist,playing an acoustic guitar, and singing, He or she will have some imperfections in the voice, the guitar will have imperfections in the tuning, there will be noise from other people in the room, the room will have effects on the acoustics, your ears are not perfect, does this mean music does not exist!!
Music and sound exists, Hi-End Audio not because the current formats do not qualify for that. I do not seek perfection or pure sound because that is impossible. In your example of live music you don't listen to scratches, clicks and pops, only if are allowed the audience to eat potato chips during the performance. Those annoying noises only are present in the anachronistic vinyl, not in the other formats and of course not in real life. On the other hand the Compact Disc with only 16 bits has four times less information than the original master tapes, vinyl and the 24-bit formats like DVD-Audio and SACD, which incidentally are gone and for something would be. There is no a CD player, regardless the price, that may include the information that was not originally recorded on those discs. They also have other anomalies such as jitter, which distorts the sound wave producing a less natural sound and they cannot convey the full emotion of music, as in the analog formats. Obviously with such limitations cannot be a real Hi End format. A true Hi-End format must be a REPLICA of the original analog master tapes that are neither perfect, but AnoiseLog and DiJitter are far away from them. Maybe this links could be interesting for you: www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend tapeproject.com/ www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ www.analogarts.net/ www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
HDCD is a format that comes from 20-bit master tapes, but is reduced to 16 so that can be played on standard CD players. And since I know, the production of those discs was stopping eleven years ago.
I am sorry but I do not understand what you wrote. But if is what I presume, this is the answer: Some formats with master tapes of 20 or 24 bit like HDCD or XRCD are converted to 16 bits, because is the only way to be reproduced in CD players.
So....care to offer any substitutions or options? Kinda hard to get performers to play in your listening room all the time. Especially the dead ones. Maybe just use MP3 for convenience?
Maybe these sites can help: tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer: “Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right. We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.” I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site. www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend This is an abstract: “Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests. One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl. What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better. It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed. Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity. Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download. The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.” More sites about R2R www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ www.horchhouse.com/home-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-2-1 www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/ (Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier or a HQ CD reproducer). www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions: th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html
I disagree because as equipment gets better jitter is reduced to a point where it is so insignificant that it no longer is an issue, also records are recorded partly mono, ie. The bass, so it is not truly stereo because the stylus would jump the grooves and some of the low notes from instruments are missing, which also you need when listening to a piece of music for a full reproduction of the event.
+John Gordon To your first comment, I am not comparing vinyl to digital. I am saying as a music lover, that both are not enjoyable for the reasons exposed. To your second comment: jitter does not have a standard for comparison; “quite reduced “, “insignificant”, “almost eliminated” and things like that are used by manufacturers and nobody knows what exactly is about. Jitter is present in a way that contaminate the sound more or less as more or less the scratches, clicks and pops pollute the vinyl. I own many vinyl records where the contrabass is for instance in the left channel and the piano on the right and almost all at the bottom of the soundstage. Stereo is present in all instruments regardless the frequency. Digital's superiority to Analog in a number of sonic parameters: precision, outer detail, speed stability, noise reduction, dynamic range, easy to handle, clean and store and without the necessity of adjustments on the pick-up system. Unfortunately, it also subtracts those aspects of the sound which are the vital essence of music; ie convey of individuality and emotions. That is why Digital is more intellectually than emotionally satisfying. This is especially true for those who are very familiar with excellent analog sound. Now, if Digital would be better in all parameters the noisy, impractical and anachronistic Vinyl had disappeared 30 years ago, instead two modern and “superior” 24 bit formats, DVD Audio and SACD are now dead and gone. So, something is wrong in DiJitter formats and of course in AnoiseLog also.
But nowadays with femtosecond clocks like in the DACs from MSB, jitter is pretty much a thing of the past. It is not noticeable by the human ear I'm pretty sure. www.msbtech.com/products/femto.php?Page=dacSelect And now with most USB DACs being Async, it's not that big of an issue.
Thanks for giving to me the site of MSB Technology, because some people wrote here that jitter in these days is not an issue even on cheap commercial players and DACs, since there is no standard specification of this anomaly to make comparisons. “Quite reduced jitter“, “insignificant”, “almost eliminated” and ambiguities like that, are used by manufacturers and no one knows exactly concerned. MBS emphasizes the importance of jitter reduction using very precisely and expensive quartz clocks and is important also, that jitter has a different value in the low frequency region than in the high frequency region. Jitter is very complex and MBS confirms that there is not a type of measurement common that all engineers agree. Anyway, players and DACs can have a great reduction in jitter but as I know, only on the reproduction stage, but cannot reduce jitter that comes already recorded. The XRCD format has a huge reduction in the mastering process using rubidium clocks which are even much more accurate than the best quartz clocks: www.elusivedisc.com/xrcd24digprocess.pdf www.elusivedisc.com/xrcdinfo.asp A real huge reduction of jitter must be not only in the reproduction stage but also in the mastering process. Many people say that XRCD at 16 bits sounds better than SACD at 24 bits, because this has not such reduction on jitter in the digital master tapes. But we can guess that the XRCD digital masters at 24 bits sound better than the XRCD at 16 bits and the original analog master tapes sound even better without any conversion, than that the digital masters. The true is that digital and vinyl formats are far from the original analog master tapes and far also for a really Hi-Fi or Hi End audio reproduction.
I am sorry if that bothers you. In my country this does not matter and nobody thinks that that is agresive, it is only indicative. Thanks for your comment.
Hi End is a whole made of several parts and if only one part is poor or bad the sound of the whole system is poor or bad. The poor or bad part is the software - sources of music - not the hardware or equipment: No one with common sense can say that listening to music with scratches, clicks and pops can be a true HI End Audio reproduction, even with the best equipment in the world. It is important to note that these noises are only on the vinyl format. It not in the original analog master tapes, not in the other formats and of course not in live performances, so what the term High Fidelity means, is not for the anachronistic vinyl because scratches, clicks and pops are faithful to nothing, unless if the audience is allowed to eat potato chips in concerts. The Compact Disc with 16 bits has around four times less information than the master tapes, the vinyl and the 24 bits DVD-Audio, SACD and most Hi-Rez files. There is no a CD player, regardless the price, that can include the information that was not recorded originally. Obviously with such limitation cannot be a true Hi End Audio and it reproduction is less natural and emotive than the analog formats because the complexity of the conversions analog to digital and again to analog. Take in mind also that the two modern and superior 24 bit formats, DVD Audio and SACD are disappeared and for something would be. The digital HiRez formats are “analog-like”, their slogan. That automatically confirms the superiority of analog sound which is the reference. But how much “analog-like” are those files? Nobody knows because there is no standard or measure to determine that. More subjective and ambiguous cannot be this “analog-like” term. Therefore, the current formats are limited, corrupted and away from the original master analog tapes that are far from perfection, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital. A true Hi End format at least, must be a replica of those masters and so far only the high quality Reel to Reel (R2R) direct copies at 2 track and 15 IPS can be extremely close to them and of course with an authentic 100% pure analog sound. Because I own some original master tapes and a few back-up copies, I know the huge sound difference between them and any other format. More information about the “new” R2R format in www.tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer: “Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right. We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.” I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site. And this is very interesting also: www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend This is an abstract: “Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests. One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl. What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better. It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed. Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity. Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download. The company catalog includes 27 other albums (now are more and coming other titles on the way). Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.” You can find lot information about the “new” R2R format, probably an authentic gourmet food, on Google. Thanks for your comment.
Have you considered or tried loss-less audio formats. The problem your having with Cd's is the compression and bit rate. With loss-less formats there is minimal if any compression and the bit-rate can go as high as necessary to accurately reproduce the entire audible frequency range and then some. If you can find loss-less audio files taken from the master recording, then, the only limitation is the system and the environment,(room acoustics). You will need a decent computer and a fast and accurate DAC . My philosophy is to put as little equipment as possible between the original recording and my ears, giving less chance for colouration of the music. Therefore I run my DAC straight into class A amplifiers, with decent interconnects, then straight to a set of Martin Logans through a pretty hefty set of bi-amped speaker wires. Not sure of your music tastes but a on good copy of say Diana Krall, off the top of my head, you can literally hear the saliva in her mouth when she moves her lips. It's really like sitting in the studio critiquing the final mix. If it still doesn't sound good it's the engineers fault for mixing wrong and even that can be objective. Hope this helps. I agree with all the flaws you mentioned but i think you may be surprised at how far dijitter audio has come. ;)
A friend of mine will come soon to my home with his high quality lap-top, Hi-Res audio files (some of them that I have in vinyl and reel tape formats to make a comparison) and his last generation digital to analog converter. Anyway here is more of what I think about the digital sound. The XRCD format has 16 bit like any CD, but comes from a 24 bit special cared tape that has a remarkable reduction of jitter in every stage of the recording process. The difference in favor of the XRCD against the CD of the same analog recording is quite notable. Obviously the 24 bit master tape with four times more information than the XRCD would sound better and the original analog tapes without jitter and other digital artifacts must sound even much better. Now if you want to translate for instance a book in English to Spanish some things are going to change and if this book in Spanish is translated again by other person to English, there will be a quite different text than the original. Digital and analog are different languages. The conversion of analog to digital and then to analog again it never will be exact and I think this is the main problem. Anyway, listening and compare the Hi-Res files with my analog reel tapes and vinyl records, I am sure it will be very interesting. Thanks for your comment and best regards
well records are not perfect but for me my hi end turntable plays very quiet but not perfect but close enough that 99 percent of the time i hear no background noise even in quiet musical passages but you are basically right in your presentation ty
assaf shmueli The cavities, protuberances and record wear that are present in vinyl discs and sound like scratches, clicks, pops and hiss are reproduced better in the best turntables, cartridges and tonearms. None of these devices can reduce to zero those anomalies. Thanks for your comment.
assaf shmueli Some of the problems of turntables, cartridges and tonearms are their inaccuracy. For instance most arms, even very expensive are pivoted, but the recording cutting arm is tangential. Only a few are of that kind, but also introduces other problems; that why most are pivoted. It is impossible to adjust the height of an arm for all the records because they have different thickness. Mistracking is also quite common in very expensive moving coil cartridges. The whole turntable, arm and cartridge has colored sound due the vibrations of those elements with the reproduction of music. Vibrations are impossible to eliminate. Many people note the difference in sound with headphones. Record wear increases the noise of vinyl discs. Warped records also distort the sound, and if you add the intrinsic noise of the vinyl format, there is no expensive "Hi End" turntable that can reproduce the sound accurately, without distortion and noise.
"Digital Jitter is a time base error and deforms the audio signal. Instead of a continuous sine wave, is staggered. This defect cannot be heard like a typical audible distortion, but the sound is not natural and without the full emotion of the music." I've been hearing this argument for 30 years and it's never made any sense to me.
+Carew Martin Precisely. If the Compact Disc would be better, 30 years ago the vinyl had disappeared as happened with the audiocassette. However, it continues to grow significantly as you can see only in this store that has more than 7,000 titles: audiophile.elusivedisc.com/search?view=grid&w=vinyl&x=13&y=4 These facts speak by themselves. But for me, a true Hi-End audio format must have the natural and emotive sound of vinyl, but without its annoying noises. Thanks for your comment
I would agree that many Recordings are Flawed .Some to the point of being unlistenable. But i have been to so many live Concerts with bad sound that the Controlled enviroment of a Recording studio seems a way better place for musical joy to unfold . Vinyl Can be supremely Quiet, to the point of having a pitch black background. You will never hear this with cheap phono stages and Dirty Vinyl.This is the Point of having a High-end audio System: To bring you Closer to the music.
Hi. I own a special edition VPI/Denon DP-75 Direct Drive High Torque turntable with a Lustre GST-801 tonearm and a special and limited edition Denon 103SA MC cartridge. Also I have a VPI Scout belt driven turntable and a VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine, using enzymatic and other cleaning fluids. My preamplifier is an Audio Research SP9 Mk III with a highly praised phono stage. I am from the vinyl era with more than 900 albums including some new “audiophile” records. Only a few old records pressed in Japan and Germany are quite clean, but all the rest has more or less clicks, pops and scratches. This additional annoying and abnormal noise that is not present in the original master tapes is intrinsically into the grooves of vinyl records and because of that, I made this video and say that vinyl is the “Anoiselog” (noisy) format. With more than 900 records I have excellent studio and live recordings. And I would like to hear them in the original master tapes without the vinyl noise. But that is a very special placer of the sound engineers like Rudy Van Gelder for instance. Thanks for your comment and best regards. Alfonso
+Scott Lowell Yes of course! As I said many times, Hi End is made of several parts and if one of them is bad, the whole thing is bad. All is important, including formats.
+Scott Lowell first and most important secret of the high end systems are speakers, and how the wood boxes are made. a nice powerfull amplifier is allways an advantage but as i said the main secret is the speakers. that was my Job for a long time. :)
+Zeeadster TV For me as I wrote, everything is important but if the source is dirty, the best speakers in the world do not clean it. Also, if the source loses information, the best speakers of the world do not restore it. And I can say that I am really glad with my Martin Logan CLS IIz electrostatic speakers and I will not change them for any others.
Except that scratches, clicks and pops are not eliminated with DBX and any other conventional noise reducer. The best for those annoying noises is the FM 223 that can eliminate pops and clicks and reduce to a considerable level the scratches: th-cam.com/video/0-AW6lZLcuA/w-d-xo.html
OF COURSE high-end audio exists! What is meant by 'high-end' is better quality equipment, so one can achieve better quality sonics. A pair of floorstanding Magneplanar or Martin-Logan speakers are going to sound MUCH better than a pair of inexpensive, cheap bookshelf speakers. Ditto regarding your equipment or source material. I think the most important point one can make though, is that system synergy is important, and often hard to predict, and that a 'point of diminished returns' is reached where no matter what you spend, or what you buy is not going to sound better, because of our hearing limitations!
As I said many times, Hi-End is a whole made of several parts and if only one part is poor or bad the sound of the whole system is poor and/or bad. Even if you own the best audio system of the world, listen to music with scratches, clicks and pops cannot be a Hi End performance. Considers that those annoying noises are present only in the vinyl format, they are not in the original master tapes and either in live music performances. Listen to a clean digital source that cannot convey the full emotion of the music as the vinyl and analog open reel tapes, cannot be a real Hi End reproduction either. You can own a Ferrari but if it is filled with gasoline of bad quality or even contaminated with some portion of water, the car is Hi End but the performance not. The reel to reel tape with hi quality half track copies at 15 ips that comes from the original analog master tapes is the only format that until today can deserve the name of Hi End Audio. Maybe these sites would be interesting for you: tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with Why Tape? www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ www.analogarts.net/ www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html
According to your philosophy in this movie, fridge noise coming from the kitchen means High end does not exist. Jitter is below the noise floor, cannot be heard, there for does not exist (in practice), The fridge in the kitchen, traffic outside birds dogs etc, air conditioner noise , toilet flushing all noises much more intrusive than jitter or aliasing, and those do exist.
I do not understand what do you mean. Vinyl has scratches, clicks and pops. Digital do not, but cannot convey the full emotion of the music. I do not listen to my discs in the kitchen.
Sir, in your movie you complained about jitter noise in digital, ( you should also mention digital aliasing noise...) and yet I am saying that there is much more noise coming from other parts of the house or the outside, that are far worse. I have Otari R2R analog, and I assure you %100 that converting analog tape and LP's to digital keeps absolutely ALL information at 24\96 and even things you do not need at 24\192, even tape bias oscillator used during recording at 50Khz-70Khz is perfectly visible in the digital capture, LP-Turntable motor noise is captured in the digital waveform, but rarely heard just as it is not heard when connected to amplifier. someone walking near the turntable is seen in the digital captured waveform, If digital capturing FM stereo, the 19Khz multiplex signal is seen in the digital waveform. some old European LP's that where cut 50 years ago contain mains 50hz hum, this is not always heard by ear but the digital capture shows it and fully captures everything. Digital has reached a point where it is so perfect it retains all information from the source. Even a $100 computer card vs expensive studio gear is better than any analog recording device, with a noise floor below most power amplifiers and listening rooms. Digital is so sensitive, that faint sources of noise into digital are like what the connecting cables pick up from electromagnetic radiation , and the single analog stage usually an opamp that comes before the converter, you cannot record such faint signals using tape, digital far better than tape. tape noise and LP noise much higher than the cables noise obviously, and jitter noise is lower than than that of the cable input noise. so practically it does not exist, it exist psychologically perhaps that is the problem .... If I have to complain about something, it is the terrible way recordings are mixed, and the missus of dynamic compressors. engineers are attempted to press buttons just because they can... so Conveying emotion is a state of mind, has nothing todo with fidelity or technology,
If you listen again to what I say in my video, my complaint is about the AUDIBLE annoying noises of vinyl. What I am saying also, is that the sound of DiJitter formats is CLEAN but artificial because they have time base errors and as I know, does not have an audible noise. I hope you have the Otari MX-5050. In that case I think it would be interesting for you these links: tapeproject.com/ www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ www.analogarts.net/ www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback I own a R2R Technics 1506 and several original master tapes and some back-up copies and believe me, nothing like that.
I love R2R, I was threading tape since I was 5 years old, first technology I ever had. for decades I hoped for a better format, it came in the form of Digital. Time based errors in Analog are terrible, in LP in the form called WOW where the record hole is not %100 centered, and how do you know that the original cutting machine speed was accurate? and that the source to cut the LP was accurate? so you have time base error already engraved forever in the Vinyl before you play it. If I must use a turntable, I prefer Direct drive, because belt is not uniform, every turn the speed might varies a little bit. In R2R, and cassettes there are time based errors worse than in LP, called flutter, These time based fluctuations are easily seen when capturing to digital and viewing them on a computer. Pinch roller is never perfect, tape tension and length slightly change over the years. recording fades over the years, even for master tapes. unlike wow and flutter jitter is high frequency, worst case scenario is it is -90db below the music in the form of noise, not time. tape and LP motor speeds can be different to the speed of the original, what is acceptable difference? 1%? 3%? I will tell you a little dark secret, most analog LP's today are cut directly from 24\96 or 24\192 digital files. and sometimes new originals are only 24\48. about Jitter ethanwiner.com/audibility.html cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs-wm/39369.pdf Jitter is an imaginary problem, aliasing might become a noticeable problem during digital processing in the studio if too many generations are incorrectly used (usually in software).. BTW I would love to have a Technics 1506, I cannot justify the price.
As I know there are not time base errors in analog sound. Analog jitter in the past was called wow and flutter, as you wrote, and are small speed variations or fluctuations of turntables, R2R and cassette decks motors. (I think that jitter and fluctuation are synonymous, that is why now jitter is used instead wow and flutter) These motor speed fluctuations are measured in percentage. My DD turntable for instance, has less than 0.015% a really very low figure. Digital jitter is a complete different thing and does not affect the speed in any way. It is caused by time base errors. This is that the “zeros and ones” are not of the same length, some are longer and others are shorter in different time lengths. These deform the audio sine wave in a way that it not has a continuous trace and causes an artificial sound compared with analog. These links shows better and graphically what I am trying to explain: www.apogeedigital.com/knowledgebase/fundamentals-of-digital-audio/what-is-jitter/ www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diginterf1_e.html www.stereophile.com/reference/1093jitter/index.html#75s2oqjGh3CWvllF.97 www.by-rutgers.nl/PDFiles/Audio%20Jitter.pdf www.sitime.com/support2/documents/AN10007-Jitter-and-measurement.pdf audiophilleo.com/definitions.aspx?jitter Digital jitter is very complex and quite difficult to measure and there is not a standard specification. You will never going to find in the specifications of DACs or digital players: 0.1% or 0.02%, of jitter for instance. You will see terms like these: “very low jitter, quite reduced, insignificant, almost eliminated, etc.” What you say about the speed fluctuations in analog sound as I know less than 0.1% are not perceived for most people. Musicians are more susceptible to notice these tiny pitch oscillations. I know that most analog LP's today are cut directly from digital sources, even from CD’s. I found this when I bought new vinyl records of my favorite titles with scratches, clicks and pops and the sound of the renewed is more alike at the CD version than the original analog disc. Then in a Blue Note modern vinyl there is a text saying that the record comes from the original digital master tapes, I think from those re-mastered by Rudy Van Gelder. The XRCD’s that comes from the original master tapes, sound more analog that those false LP’s which have the worst of both worlds: digital sound with scratches clicks and pops. Anyway, what you exposed in general terms confirms that Hi End Audio does not exist.
the source of music is the very instruments that produced it not the vinyl record. high end audio is designed to re-produce this as faithfully as possible be it analogue or digital
+janine fawcett If you listen to the original master tapes is true what you are saying but the annoying scratches, clicks and pops are only in the vinyl format and do not represent fidelity of nothing. Among other flaws, the Compact Disc has four times less information than the original analog master tapes, so it is not fully faithful to those recordings. Hi-End does not exist if vinyl and digital formats are limited and contaminated. Only a replica of those master tapes deserve that name. Maybe this site would be interesting for you: tapeproject.com/
But what's Hi End? if Hi End is the "best known way to reproduce the sound" the Hi End exist even the errors and reproduction mistakes, so far from the perfection but like some of the best that we can get, we can believe that really the so called Hi End exists.
I am not seeking for a “perfect or pure sound”, since that is impossible in audio. The point is about the current formats that are not true Hi-Fi. Hi-End Audio is a WHOLE made of several parts and if only one part is poor or bad the sound of the WHOLE system is poor or bad. The poor or bad part is the software - sources of music - not the hardware or equipment.. No one with common sense can say that listening to music with scratches, clicks and pops can be a true HI End Audio reproduction, even with the best equipment in the world. It is important to note that these noises are only on the vinyl format. It not in the original analog master tapes, not in the other formats and of course not in live performances, so what the term High Fidelity means, is not for the anachronistic vinyl because scratches, clicks and pops are faithful to nothing, unless if the audience was allowed to eat potato chips in concerts. The Compact Disc with 16 bits has around four times less information than the master tapes, the vinyl and the 24 bits SACD, DVD-Audio and most HiRez files. There is no a CD player, regardless the price, that can include the information that was not recorded originally. Obviously with such limitation cannot be a true Hi End Audio and it reproduction is less natural and emotive than the analog formats. Also the two superior 24 bit DVD Audio and SACD are disappeared and for something would be. The digital HiRez formats are “analog-like”, their slogan. That automatically confirms the superiority of analog sound which is the reference. But how much “analog-like” are those files? Nobody knows because there is no standard or measure to determine that. More subjective and ambiguous cannot be this “analog-like” term. Therefore, the current formats are limited, corrupted and away from the original analog master tapes that are far from perfection, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital. A true Hi End format at least, must be a replica of those masters and so far only the high quality Reel to Reel (R2R) direct copies at 2 track and 15 IPS can be extremely close to them and of course with an authentic 100% pure analog sound. Because I own some original master tapes and a few back-up copies, I know the huge sound difference between them and any other format. More information about the “new” R2R format in tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer: “Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right. We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.” I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site. www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend This is an abstract: “Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests. One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl. What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better. It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed. Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, surface noise, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity. The Tape Project, which peddles legacy albums ranging from Sonny Rollins’ Saxophone Colossus to The London Philharmonic’s Arnold Overtures. The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall. Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.” You can search in Google more information about this “new” format, the only until now that can deserve the name of Hi End Audio.
This time I don't have enough time, so I must to use the Google tranlator: Mr. Alfonoso Viladoms if I misinterpreted him thinking he was looking for something quasi-perfect, please excuse me; but the other thing I said is simply a matter of logic, my attempt at definition: "" The most advanced and faithful form for the time to reproduce the sounds, read electronically-acoustically .... "" It is going to be that the Hi End sound as such if it exists, if we can not access it is something else. The master tapes of which you speak would be an example of Hi End sound, to which the players, amps and speakers should be added at the same height. The other is a matter of "devaluation of the terms" High Fidelity since it was used as an advertising phrase for teams that were not already sticks, Hi End is the new term that as no, in many cases will be something false, but still in the cases when it is true I DO NOT DISCUSS THE OVERPRICE. A pair of studio monitors rated as Hi End usually cost more than $ 2,300 a pair and up there! Worry that those who have so much money enjoy music or not for me is something banal ... there will be some yes, others not ... but it's not my problem. Yes, there are teams that are pure price, that is: luxury, but not that they are as much as their manufacturers boast.
Thanks for take your time in typing...the article quoted by you I already read it, and......other time the price is too high! the best Hi End is over our budgets.
I answered also in the Spanish version of this video. You can see in the description of my equipment that it is a real Hi End Audio system, but not very expensive. Anyway, the price of my beloved Martin Logan CLSz pure electrostatic panels was 4K dls. in 1994, including customs taxes and shipping to my country and which are the most expensive pieces of my audio system. I am sure that the sound of it is better than many Hi End systems costing a lot more. I heard many expensive systems at the CES of 1994 when I bought my electrostatics, and for instance the the Wilson Watt/Puppy speakers at US$35,000.00 does not sound as transparent and natural like my Martin Logans. Greetings.
He likes tape. But no one listens to studio tape. And no one is selling it. So be it. The digital formats are flawed, but they're good enough. Audiophiles are so thoroughly full of shit and this is the problem. No one takes them seriously anymore, because while their theories are well founded they fail time and time again in double blind tests. Is studio tape the best. Probably. But I'm guessing you could play an SACD and studio tape and you'd fool them more often than not. Human ears aren't very accurate in what we hear. Our own psyche literally fills in the gaps and convinces us we hear things that aren't there. That's why CD's are just fine.
Please see these sites about studio tapes: tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer: “Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right. We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.” I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site. www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend This is an abstract: “Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests. One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl. What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better. It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed. Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity. Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download. The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.” More sites about R2R www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ www.horchhouse.com/home-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-2-1 www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/ (Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier or a HQ CD reproducer). www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions: th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html
Despite digital jitter and analog noise most people could still perceive the music therein. And our brain is pretty impressive in filtering out both jitter and noise in our perception in order to enjoy the music. I listen to both CD and vinyl plus anything in between mp3, aac, flac, so on. In case I don't have the music in my preferred format I could still enjoy the music. Its how the brain adapts. Similar thing happens in entertainment. Watch a horror movie at cinema or on laptop computer it still delivers the horror although in varying degree. Its how the brain adapts. Remember when we were young we mostly cared less where the music came from be it from radio, tv, hifi or live band. Its because younger brain adapts easily, forgives most imperfection and just focus to the music. Stop listening to music for few weeks or months until your body aches to listen to your favourite song. Too much of a good thing is not good for the body. When you start to listen again I think you won't care much what format it came from.
High End Audio does exist. I was at the Hi End in Munich just last week and it was Very Hi End indeed. I agree that Hi Fidelity does not exist. Vinyl is closest due to it's analog nature and music instruments and voice make analog waves. But vinyl has a high noise floor and this make CD or digital formats shine. The only real Hi Fi is a live performance.
ANoiseLog Vinyl and DiJitter are far from the original analog master tapes. A format as a replica of those tapes, is not as a live performance but very much better indeed and truly Hi End. Maybe in Munich you listened to the sound of high quality Reel to Reel tapes. Here is some information about: tapeproject.com/ www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ www.analogarts.net/ www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
Analog Master Tapes used by many recording studio's in the past, still have a higher noise floor than CD's and other digital formats that have 0 noise floor. Heard an awesome of Reel to Reel and Vinyl records played on some very expensive equipment. I have all three formats and enjoy them all. Still they are all illusions of the real thing; some better than others.
I own a Technics RS 1506 almost professional Reel to Reel tape deck. Commercial ¼ pre recorded tapes at 7.5 IPS without Dolby B noise reduction system has audible hiss, but those half track at 15 IPS even without Dolby not. In The Tape Project site I recommend to read “Why Tape?” which has detailed information about that. I am a Jazz fan and thanks to recorded music; I can listen to John Coltrane, Lee Morgan, Horace Silver, Dave Brubeck and many, many other Jazz giants that otherwise was impossible to me and most people to hear to them alive and as well as all the other great musicians of classical music, pop, rock, etc. and even we can hear their recordings as many times as we want, which is impossible in live performances. Also many of them have electronic amplification, many times bad equalization and if you do no sit in a good place, the listening is not too good also. Sit on front of your good audio system alone, could be better than many live performances. A demanding audiophile as me, the current formats do not qualify for Hi End, except the Reel to Reel high quality half track direct copies at 15 IPS.
A true Hi End format at least, must be a replica the original analog master analog tapes that are not perfect either, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital that are far from them. So, only the “new” high quality Reel to Reel (R2R) direct copies at 2 track and 15 IPS can be extremely close to them. More information about the “new” R2R format in tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer: “Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right. We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.” I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site. www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend This is an abstract: “Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests. One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl. What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better. It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed. Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity. The Tape Project, which peddles legacy albums ranging from Sonny Rollins’ Saxophone Colossus to The London Philharmonic’s Arnold Overtures. The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall. Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.” More sites about R2R www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ horchhouse.com/project-r2r/ www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/ (Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier or a HQ CD reproducer). www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions: th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html Unfortunately right now the tapes are very expensive with a few titles and I hope that this reborn and improved format grow enough to down the prices. So, Hi End or H Fi exists only with this high quality R2R format, with the others not.
Until today the best audio format, especially the “new” R2R with high quality copies that come from the original analog master tapes: tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” And www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ www.analogarts.net/ horchhouse.com/project-r2r/ www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/ www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions: th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html
I never tried because I read somewhere that the liquid changes somehow the inner structure of the groove and the records lose some high frequencies. For that reason vinyl discs sound with less scratches and there is no return to the original state. I think you have to research about this in Google.
There might not be speed variations in nature, but there sure as hell are in analogue tape and vinyl records - here it's just called wow and flutter, and the amounts of wow and flutter are much, much greater than jitter in any digital audio (unless very faulty). Have you ever heard jitter? The reason I ask is that everybody's talking about jitter but nobody seems to know how it sounds. And I do mean nobody, because all the people who talk about jitter as being a problem have clearly never heard jitter, because their description of how it sounds is completely off. Until six months ago I had never heard jitter either, but I had been told that it smeared the stereo image and created a grating, unpleasant sound, and it was ALWAYS audible. It It's simply all incorrect. It IS however correct that all converters produce jitter, but none of them produce jitter in audible levels, UNLESS you use extremely faulty equipment. Even a $50 CD player from a warehouse won't produce audible jitter. So when a magazine like Stereophile tells a story about how they sent a CD player back and it had the clock replaced with another clock with lower jitter amounts, and they hear a great audible improvement, it's simply placebo, unless the manufacturer changed something else. First of all, you can hear jitter here (you might have to write down the links, as they might not be clickable): hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,107570.msg905631.html#msg905631 (the sound clips are attached just below the post). Clearly, jitter doesn't sound like how the jitter-phobic audiophiles say. It sounds like an old worn cassette tape! Secondly, you can read the following great scientific report which concludes that the threshold for audibility of jitter is more than 250 nanoseconds. The test subjects were all audiophiles who used their own equipment, and the engineers also measured jitter levels in their equipment, and the highest level they found was 3 nanoseconds. Again, the threshold for audibility was more than 250 nanoseconds - around 100 times higher. Many converters only produce 0,5 nanoseconds of jitter. It's also worth noting that there hasn't a single reliable report in 30 years that concluded jitter was audible in the amounts found in converters today. The reports that state that it is audible, were all faulty somehow (e.g. not based on listening tests, and when they were asked for listening tests, they failed these tests) www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/26/1/26_1_50/_pdf Then, there's vinyl. I've collected records for more than 15 years, and I still buy records. Now I've compared more than 700 albums and singles on vinyl and CD. I have heard many CDs that sound cold, hard, shrill, thin and clinical, where the vinyl edition was much better - more pleasant, more lively, more "right". However, most of these CDs were from the 80s or early 90s, where A/D converters were poor and mastering wasn't done quite right, or they were mastered in Japan, where they enjoy this overly trebly sound. Or they were reissues of old albums (and often old tapes deteriorate and have to be baked - just ask Steve Hoffmann). There were of course exceptions to these general trends. Please also remember that some vinyl albums are not cut flat from the source, and therefore sound different ("better"), while others are cut flat from the source, even from a 16/44.1 source, but the vinyl material colours the sound, which to some people is "better". The fact of the matter is that if you take any analogue (or digital) master tape and make a properly converted CD of it, it is audibly indistinguishable from the original - and show me any properly conducted blind test that proves otherwise. But not everybody likes how the master tapes actually sound. But saying "digital can't convey the emotion of music" is simply very, very subjective. Some albums I would never buy on CD, but because a certain percentage of albums sound better on vinyl doesn't mean that the entire vinyl medium as a whole is superior - quite the opposite, every SINGLE technical argument supports that digital is better. Of course, some vinyl albums are audibly indistinguishable from the master tape, but these are the exceptions - not the rule. With CDs, the rule is that the CD is indistinguishable from the master, and the exception is that the CD sounds different than the master. But many audiophiles don't really like "transparency" or "neutrality" - they want a coloured sound that sounds "nice". Me too. That's why I chose for instance an amplifier from Naim. I don't think it's neutral, but it makes music "fun". And I have several albums where the CD is "better" - more clean, better treble, less messy, etc., but nevertheless I prefer the vinyl edition, because the imperfections makes it "fun" somehow. So, in some cases lower fidelity is actually "preferable" - "better" for a lack of a better word.
+mcnyregrus Thanks for your very well exposed comments that I agree in most of them, but let me tell you more of what I think and my experience about jitter. First it is not funny to me to hear scratches, pops and clicks with music. That really bothers me, especially because those annoying noises are exclusively of the vinyl format and are not in the original master tapes and in the other formats either. Digital's superiority to Analog in a number of sonic parameters are precision, outer detail, speed stability, dynamic range, channel separation, up to 74 minutes of continuous music, no noise, no record wear, no harm of the laser to the disc, no coloration by acoustic reflections and vibrations, easy to handle, play, clean and store; and without the necessity of adjustments on the pick-up system. Unfortunately, it also subtracts those aspects of the sound which are the vital essence of music; ie convey of individuality and emotions. That is why Digital is more intellectually than emotionally satisfying. This is especially true for those who are very familiar with excellent analog sound. I know that you do not agree with this but if digital audio would be better in ALL parameters the noisy, impractical and anachronistic vinyl had disappeared 30 years ago, but not only is alive, but also two modern and “superior” 24 bit formats, DVD Audio and SACD are now dead and gone. So, something is wrong with digital audio. One thing I learned is that reduction of jitter is very important. I own several XRCDs that play in any CD reproducer. Their sound is similar but not equal to the vinyl and much better than any conventional CD and any one can hear that difference. This is because jitter is reduced at the maximum in every step of the process to make the digital master tape. www.elusivedisc.com/xrcdinfo.asp en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Resolution_Compact_Disc www.elusivedisc.com/xrcd24digprocess.pdf Some people say that these 16 bits digital discs are even better than SACD at 24, which has not such jitter reduction in the mastering process. But XRCD compared with the same titles in vinyl, the sound of this to me is more “alive”. Maybe is subjective, but for someone who does not like the annoying noises of vinyl, is hard to admit that vinyl sounds better than XRCD. I own several original analog master tapes and a few back-up copies at 2 tracks and 15 ips and believe me; the sound is hugely superior to any current formats. Maybe would be interesting for you this link: tapeproject.com/ I recommend to start with: Why tape? Thanks again for your comments that increase my knowledge of digital audio and confirms what I think about the subjectivity of the listening to recorded music. My best regards.
+Alfonso Viladoms I'm just curious now: Did you delete my response to your comment above? I remember seeing my comment posted the next day, but now it's gone. It wasn't meant to be harsh or abusive or anything. After all, you have been one of the easiest people to debate these issues with :-).
+mcnyregrus I remember that and when I was going to answer, it disappeared. I thought that you decided to delete it. I do not know what happened, therefore, you can write it again. Because English is not my language, I cannot respond quickly. I need more time and help from Google Translator. Thanks and best regards.
I don't remember what I wrote, and I had actually promised myself never to debate these issues again, as it exhausts me (my comments here would be my last), so I think I will stop here. However, I do have one last question which is: Have you ever done a properly conducted blind test (volume levels matched) between your analogue master tapes and a properly converted digital copy? I ask because you keep insisting that the analogue tapes are audibly far better than a digital copy. I haven't read everything there is to read, but so far I have not seen a single study that supported that claim. We all have our preferences, and I have no problem with that. I also enjoy certain expensive things where I might not be able to tell the difference to a cheaper variant in a blind test. It's just a preference than makes me feel good. And about your claim that CDs only contain 25 % of the master, where do you get that number from? The basis for all digital audio is the Nyquist sampling theorem, which was proven already in 1928, and it says that as long as the sampling frequency is more than twice that of the bandwidth, the digital file will contain ALL the information and detail with NO loss and NO distortion. And of course, the bandwidth is limited. On CDs it goes to 22 kHz, on 96 kHz downloads it goes to 48 kHz. But analogue lovers seem to misunderstand the capabilities of analogue tapes a lot: Some of the finest analogue tapes (Studer 810) are only spec'ed to go to 20 kHz +/- 2 dB. They don't go to infinity as some people seem to think. So, a CD will contain all the information of an analogue master tape that only goes to 20 kHz. I hope this doesn't sound harsh, but that's not up for debate - it's simply a fact :-). As for conversion, then early A/D converters from the 80s are reported to sound harsh, clinical or industrial, and almost all CDs I have heard from the 80s (and some from the early 90s) are worse than the vinyl editions. Nowadays, even moderatly priced A/D and D/A converters are audibly transparent. I have a Naim CD 5X CD player, originally priced at around £1.500, and to me it's audibly indistinguishable from my Marantz DVD-6500 DVD/SACD player. This only cost around £350 when new. I think many expensive converters simply employ a bit of EQ to either sound more "relaxed" (lowering of the treble) or more "exciting" (boosting the treble). So, conversion is of course not completely trouble-free, but when you consider everything that can and often will go wrong in analogue formats, even with expensive equipment, and you consider how little actually goes wrong with digital formats, then digital is easily technically superior - although I might happen to like a certain analogue recording due to its shortcomings (euphonic and harmonic distortion, wow/flutter, etc.) better than a digital one.
I understand the difficulty of discussing these issues, because now I have to respond to two other people, but it's my video and I have that responsibility. About D/A converters: My modest US$700.00 MHZS CD player has exactly the same CS4398 DAC chip-set as the first most expensive model of Esoteric Audio at US$100,000.00 The new Esoteric gear has several different Asahi Kasei DAC at 32 bit and Teac (mother of Esoteric) has a few DACs with these “velvet sound” devices: www.teac.com/product/nt-503/ Yes, I can say that new D/A converters are better than others from the past. About CD/SACD: I read somewhere several years ago, when manufacturers were promoting SACD, that this format has four times more information than the CD. Because I do not have that information now, I think that the technical characteristics between both formats could be enough to see why SACD has much more information than CD. I found this on Wikipedia: CD capacity is up to 700 MB and for SACD is up to 4.7 GB SACD. Well, this is almost seven times more information than the CD. SACD probably is not compressed and perhaps additional factors that give a result of four times more information. More about is on: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CD About blind tests: I do not believe in blind tests, because there is a lot of subjectivity in listening to sound systems and is very easy to misdiagnosis in these tests. For instance: Amplifier A vs. B: 89% of listeners say that A is better, 5% do not know what is best and the rest 6% say that B is better. We may think that A is the winner, but because it has stronger bass and amplifier B not, but it has a balanced frequency response. Most people like stronger bass, but 6% found that the real winner is B. This is just one example. Another thing is that just being on front the speakers and in the middle between them at certain distance, is possible to appreciate the stereo image, soundstage, air, etc. Real stereo listening is possible if only a single person is in that situation, not in an auditorium with people that are seating on many different places. As an audiophile I learned with the years, to perceive differences between different components. Is important to do this with my own equipment and with a source with music that I like very much and I know pretty well. Differences between cartridges are complicated, because some records can go very well with one cartridge and other discs with another. That is why some turntables have the possibility to install up to three arms. About this, I really found a noticeable better sound when I listened to MC cartridges against the others in all my records. Because I build my own cables, I make comparisons between them. I can find differences in favor of one over others. On one occasion, after listening for some time a winner pair of cables, something I do not like at all and return to the previous. This can show how subjective it may be listening. Several types of cables can have very slight differences in bass, middle frequencies, treble, timbre, soundstage, etc. Trying to know which is the better, I discovered that some cables convey the emotion of music and others not. I think it is very difficult to other people to perceive things like this at first hearing. What I can say about the sound of high quality open reel tapes on my equipment is that everything is better in general terms, but more important is that I feel that the music has life. It is not the illusion to be in a live performance, it is something different. If you are in a live concert, you do not feel that the musicians are alive, or anyone on front of you and this is because you know that. When I was young I went to a museum that had a temporary exhibition of paints of Picasso, Velazquez, Dali and others that came from other museum in France. I remember especially the work of a Russian painter. The paint shows a farmer as tall as me and I felt that this man on the fabric, had life. Really it was very impressive that feeling. I read than most people feel something like that with the sculpture the “Pietá” of Michelangelo in the basilica of Saint Peter. Listening to my tapes the music has life itself and is what I feel. I own a Sony RCD-1 CD recorder and after your post, I made a transfer of one of my tapes to a CD-R and that feeling was gone, also the sound is less natural. I want to post some paragraphs of the sites with information of high quality R2R format. Maybe this can help: “Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests. One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl.” www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend "Audio tape is the only format that can record and play back pure, natural sound in its whole and original state," Horch House says. "Every other format requires some form of interference with the original audio signal. Audio tape is therefore the only format which allows the listener to hear a recording exactly the way the original artist and producer intended it to sound, before it was altered to fit on a vinyl record, sampled for a CD or squashed down to MP3 size." www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ I think that simple is better and in audio, as less steps are in the chain much better. Also I like very much this definition: “There are some audiophiles that listen to music through their equipments and others, the most that listen to their equipments through the music” Now I have a question for you: When you listen to your stereo with digital audio, the music really makes that you to forget the sound of your equipment?
I used to agree with you regarding CDs. A couple friends have very high-end digital source components (Chord and Mark Levinson). And for the longest time, they lacked that emotional engagement and nuance you speak of. But after they did some rather expensive tweaks and upgrades, my impression of digital has changed. It really can sound as emotionally engaging as live music. Of course, all the components downstream have to be commensurate with the source components. These are the upgrades that took the sound to a place that I’m sure would astound even you: (1) High Fidelity CT-IE analog and digital interconnects (2) HiDiamond 4 power cord on the transport (3) Mojo Enigma SE power cord with Furutech FI-50 plugs on the DAC (4) Marigo Audio Lab Ultima Signature CD Mat (5) Bedini Hex-Beam Clarifier (6) Symposium Rollerblock Series 2+ above and below the Superballs underneath the transport (7) Svelte Shelf below the Rollerblocks (8) Mapleshade Isoblocks below the Svelte (9) Mapleshade Micropoint Megafeet below the DAC (10) 4” thick Mapleshade platform with Isoblocks below the Megafeet (11) Sound Application power conditioner (12) Furutech GTX-D Rhodium wall outlet with carbon fiber receptacle cover (13) Densen DeMagic CD. Most audiophiles have never heard a stereo in which the entire system (components, cables, clean electricity, tweaks, isolation platforms, and room acoustics) have been optimized, in which case it's very easy to reach the same conclusions that you've had.
+LorenzoNW Hi Lorenzo, Thank you very much for your advices but as you mentioned most of these things are quite expensive and for now out of my budget. Anyway I will give this list of components to some of my rich friends. I hope they can buy all these things and that is a way for me to listen to these improvements. My best regards.
+Alfonso Viladoms The best part is that you can audition them all for free. And most (if not all) the products mentioned have a money back satisfaction guarantee. I would suggest your friends try one upgrade at a time so there’s only the one variable. Almost forgot, replacing the fuses with Synergistic Research Red fuses led to an improvement too. The next step they can take following the upgrades I already mentioned is to improve room acoustics (if they haven’t done so already). Much to my surprise, these little HFT high frequency transducers in conjunction with the FEQ Frequency Equalizer by Synergistic Research really improves the sound. In my friend’s case, there wasn’t a noticeable difference when he placed the HFTs on his speakers but on the walls, they cleaned up a lot of distortion.
+LorenzoNW Hello Lorenzo, I live in Mexico and any purchases made outside my country pays customs duties. So there is no way to return those components. Anyway, some of my friends often go to US and they will be very happy to try to improve their audio systems with things you recommended Thanks again and regards.
+Alfonso Viladoms I forgot to mention, the heart of both their systems is a First Sound Paramount Mk III Special Edition preamp. One of them recently upgraded his with high-end Duelund capacitors. Fortunately, the owner of the company lives nearby, making upgrades easy. I listened to it last night after 200 hours of break-in and almost cried. Believe it or not, it was more emotionally engaging than live music! Very few audiophiles have heard systems at that level. If your wealthy friends want the best, I suggest they look into getting a First Sound. Keep in mind that in order to reproduce music like that, EVERYTHING matters. For instance, when my friend didn’t use his Marigo CD mat, some of the magic was gone. And when he turned off his Synergistic Research FEQ, some of the dimensionality collapsed.
So, your idea of high end audio is fumbling around with winding master tapes costing an average of 500 dollars a pop on a reel 2 reel machine --GOT IT!
It's funny, but I've heard records without pops, clicks and scratches. They left me with goose bumps. I've also heard classic music played through cheap single driver speakers that was very pleasant.
Jitter was pretty much a thing of the past many years before this video was posted. Reading an old CD from an old drive where the error correction can't keep up is one thing. However, most "audiophiles" are listening to lossless audio with a modern DAC. There is no jitter in that scenario. If anything, it's 100db or more below the music at 24-bit, anyway. I think I'll keep taking advice from sound engineers like Alan Parsons, who know what they're talking about because they do it for a living. And yes, I'd rather create the warmth of vinyl with a tube or even digitally, rather than listen to pops and scratches.
I do not think that jitter is thing of the past. Jitter is an anomaly caused by time base errors and as I know is not relative to quantization which is another issue of the digital sound. Jitter cannot be eliminated and even measured accurately, so there are no parameters of comparison. For instance, you will not find DAC specifications of jitter at 5%, 3% or 1%. So manufacturers talk about minimal or imperceptible jitter which is a subjective indication. Yes, jitter can be reduced in “good” DACs with complex circuits with Quartz and even expensive Rubidium clocks that make some amount of correction of the time base errors caused by that anomaly, but only in the reproduction way because is not possible to do that in the jitter that comes already from the digital master tapes. I discovered this with the XRCD format that reduces jitter considerably in the mastering process and the sound is much more natural: www.elusivedisc.com/xrcdinfo.asp www.elusivedisc.com/xrcd24digprocess.pdf About the article of Gregorio about quantization and that there is no audible difference between 16 an 24 bits, I am sure that many people including audio engineers do not agree with this. I cannot say anything about, because I do not have a SACD player to make comparisons. I have discovered that the analog sound is more natural than warm.
MUCHOS SALUDOS Y RESPETOS.MI NOMBRE ES YBER LAGUNA ,SOY UNA PERSONA DISCAPACITADA HACE UN AÑO,(ORTOGRAFIA MALA) PERO SOY AMANTE DE SONIDO Y DE LA MUSICA CON BUEN SONIDO..DESEARIA SI PUDIERA DAR O TENER CURSOS DE SU PERSONA EN LA PARTE DE PROBLEMAS EN EN LOS QUE EL SONIDO PUEDE TENER PEBLEMAS DE CANBIOS DE FORMA Y ESCUCHA....GRACIAS..
Hola Yber. Perdona la respuesta tardía pero no la he podido escribir antes. No entiendo bien tu pregunta, pero te comento que a mí personalmente me lastima el sonido del Compact Disc a intensidades moderadamente altas (unos 80 decibeles), causándome inflamación en los oídos, zumbido o Tinnitus al igual que sucede con sonidos muy altos analógicos de 120 decibeles o más, muy comunes en los conciertos de Rock. No soy el único y esto afecta a otras muchas personas, sobre todo a quienes utilizan audífonos escuchando el formato digital MP3 ó MP4. Esto parece ser debido a ese fenómeno llamado “jitter”. Pero además amplíame con más detalle tu pregunta, para saber cuáles son los problemas que mencionas. Recibe un cordial saludo, Alfonso
You're mistaking 'hi-end' with 'perfection'. What does not exist is perfection, because vinyl, digital and audio tapes are all compromised in their own specific ways. Hi-end exists, it means 'state of the art'. However I admit I'm one of the majority who feels he can live with the compromises of digital audio far easier than I can live with the compromises of vinyl records and analogue tapes.
I never used the word perfection because I am not seeking for a “perfect sound”, since that is impossible. No one with common sense can say that listening to music with scratches, clicks and pops can be a true HI End audio reproduction, even with the best equipment in the world. It is important to note that these noises are only on the vinyl format. It not in the original analog master tapes that are not perfect either, not in the other formats and of course not in live performances, so what the term High Fidelity means, is not for the anachronistic vinyl because scratches, clicks and pops are faithful to nothing. The Compact Disc has four times less information than the master tapes, the vinyl and the 24 bits SACD and DVD-Audio. There is no a CD player, regardless the price, that can include the information that was not recorded originally. Obviously with such limitation, cannot be a true Hi End format. Now DVD-Audio and SACD are dead and gone and for something will be. The new digital high resolution formats are “analog-like”. That automatically confirms the superiority of analog sound which is the reference. But how much “analog-like” are those files? Nobody knows because there is no standard or measure to determine that. More subjective and ambiguous cannot be this “analog-like” term. So, current formats are limited and corrupt and far from the original master tapes that are far from perfection but indisputably superior to vinyl and digital. A true Hi End format must be a replica of those masters and so far only the high quality reel to reel tapes can be like them in practical terms or if you prefer in technical terms, extremely close to them and of course with an authentic 100% pure analog sound. Because I own some original master tapes and a few back-up copies, I know the huge difference between them and any other format. More information about this in tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” And www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
Everyone talk about the LP be the best, fully analog and so on! But the LP has a sort of resolution. The LP can not be cut with infinite details, the needle have to have a minimum of variation in the groves to be able to "detect" them, in other words, the LP have to have fairly rough groves to work, fare more then any digital media. On the other hand, do the LP sound as perfect as we can hear, so the rough resolution have to be enough for our limited hearing. That means that wary high resolution digital media, have to be extremely more detailed then we can hear. So yes High End do exists, it is a system that make ask yourself if you are listening live or not.
The deficiencies of the anachronistic vinyl are even more than those you are mentioning. The digital HiRez formats are “analog-like”, their slogan. That automatically confirms the superiority of analog sound which is the reference. But how much “analog-like” are those files? Nobody knows because there is no standard or measure to determine that. More subjective and ambiguous cannot be this “analog-like” term. Therefore, the current formats are limited, corrupted and away from the original master analog tapes that are far from perfection, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital. A true Hi End format at least, must be a replica of those masters and so far only the high quality Reel to Reel (R2R) direct copies at 2 track and 15 IPS can be extremely close to them and of course with an authentic 100% pure analog sound. Because I own some original master tapes and a few back-up copies, I know the huge sound difference between them and any other format. More information about the “new” R2R format in tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer: “Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right. We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.” I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site. www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend This is an abstract: “Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests. One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl. What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better. It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed. Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity. Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download. The company catalog includes 27 other albums (now are more and coming other titles on the way). Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.” You can search in Google more about the analog Reel to Reel format and fine a lot of information. For instance: hifipig.com/keeping-it-reel-reel-to-reel-at-high-end-munich/
Thanks for a great and wary interesting answer!! And yes, the original R2R are a world for it self, if you have heard that, all other popular media can go home:-)
+Dazlidorne Jenkins Here it is: The LaserDisc had analog sound using an FM carrier. Now is possible to convert the original analog master tapes in a carrier of FM, transfer them to master tapes and then to memory cards eliminating the problems of Laser devices. This could be a real replica of the original master tapes and this technology is not expensive and the reproducers with slots for memory cards neither. This is the secret, now it is necessary that some company do it.
You can not quote that there is no such ting as high-end audio! The audio components that have smaller tolerances than those with big tolerance, can be seen as high-end audio. If the quality chain from the recording to the players, amplification and the speakers that have small tolerance, we can call those components high end audio.
Hi-End Audio is a whole made of several parts and if only one part is poor or bad the sound of the whole system is poor or bad. The poor or bad part is the software - sources of music - not the hardware. No one with common sense can say that listening to music with scratches, clicks and pops can be a true HI End Audio reproduction, even with the best equipment in the world. It is important to note that these noises are only on the vinyl format. It not in the original analog master tapes, not in the other formats and of course not in live performances, so what the term High Fidelity means, is not for the anachronistic vinyl because scratches, clicks and pops are faithful to nothing, unless if the audience was allowed to eat potato chips in concerts. The Compact Disc with 16 bits has around four times less information than the master tapes, the vinyl and the 24 bits SACD, DVD-Audio and most Hi-Rez files. There is no a CD player, regardless the price, that can include the information that was not recorded originally. Obviously with such limitation cannot be a true Hi End format. But the Compact Disc's superiority to Vinyl in a number of sonic parameters are precision, outer detail, speed stability, dynamic range, channel separation which means better soundstage, up to 80 minutes of continuous recorded music, no noise floor, scratches, clicks and pops; no mistracking, wow and flutter, eccentric center holes and warped discs; no rumble, hum, record wear, without corrosive dust attracted by electrostatic charges, no friction and harm of the laser beam to the disc and no wear of it, no pre or post echoes, no coloration by acoustic reflections and vibrations, easy to handle, play, clean and store and without the necessity of adjustments on the pick-up system by the user. Unfortunately, it also subtracts those aspects of the sound which are the vital essence of music; ie convey of individuality and emotions. That is why Digital is more intellectually than emotionally satisfying. This is especially true for those who are very familiar with excellent analog sound. Now, if the Compact Disc would be better in ALL parameters the noisy, impractical and anachronistic Vinyl had disappeared more than 30 years ago as the audio cassette, but Vinyl is very alive with increasing sales year by year worldwide and this is because the analog format can convey ALL the emotion and “soul” of music and many people prefer it even with pops and clicks*, than the clean but less emotive sound of the digital formats. *(By logic, only one single click and/or pop is enough to disqualify vinyl as a Hi End Audio product). Now take in mind that those who disappeared were the two modern and superior 24 bit formats, DVD Audio and SACD. So, something is wrong with digital audio. The new Hi-Rez formats are “analog-like”, their slogan. That automatically confirms the superiority of analog sound which is the reference. But how much “analog-like” are those files? Nobody knows because there is no standard or measure to determine that. More subjective and ambiguous cannot be this “analog-like” term. Many audiophiles found that the sound of these files is not as good as they should be and reject the so-called PC-Audio because among other things, computers are not Hi End Audio products, they do not have discrete circuits and premium parts with very low tolerances. Therefore, the current formats are limited, corrupted and away from the original master analog tapes that are far from perfection, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital. A true Hi End format at least, must be a replica of those masters and so far only the high quality Reel to Reel (R2R) tapes can be extremely close to them and of course with an authentic 100% pure analog sound. Because I own some original master tapes and a few back-up copies, I know the huge difference between them and any other format. By the way, the so-called Hi End Audio is only for very rich people, not for audiophiles. They want to own the most expensive things in the world that most people cannot reach and that is their real pleasure, not the music. For logic, they are not true music lovers and even they have not enough time to listen to it. More information about The “new” R2R format in tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ www.analogarts.net/project-r2r www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/ (Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier). www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions: th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html Unfortunately right now the tapes are very expensive with a few titles and I hope that this reborn and improved format grow enough to down the prices.
Here are some abstracts of the sites about R2R that I recommend: tapeproject.com/ Why Tape? These are two paragraphs of the first answer: “Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right. We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.” I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site. www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend This is an abstract: “Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests. One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl. What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better. It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed. Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity. The Tape Project, which peddles legacy albums ranging from Sonny Rollins’ Saxophone Colossus to The London Philharmonic’s Arnold Overtures. The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall. Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.” Some more abstracts on the next sites: www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ "Audio tape is the only format that can record and play back pure, natural sound in its whole and original state," Horch House says. "Every other format requires some form of interference with the original audio signal. Audio tape is therefore the only format which allows the listener to hear a recording exactly the way the original artist and producer intended it to sound, before it was altered to fit on a vinyl record, sampled for a CD or squashed down to MP3 size." www.analogarts.net/project-r2r As music lovers, we’re spoilt for choice. Our favorite tunes are now available in a wider variety of formats than ever before. But whether you’re a vinyl collector, a digital convert or one of a growing number of audiophiles who are now rediscovering the joy of reel-to-reel tapes, one thing’s clearly agreed: nothing can ever sound - or feel - quite like the original master tape. And when it comes to masters, analogue will always trump digital, hands down. Listen to an original analogue master tape and you’re hearing exactly what the sound engineer heard on that day, in the studio or on stage, with the band. No remixing, no interference, no compression. Just you and the artist, right there, in the moment - captured in its original essence.” www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/ (Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier). www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback (Short article that mentions some R2R vintage high quality 2 tracs and 15 IPS of velocity).
I think your are absolutely right, but the consequence would be, never hear to not-live-music again. In my case that would mean, there were no more music in my live, because where i live, it is hard to find live-music. So i live with this compromiss. The best music i know (and i mean that seariously) is to go in the woods and listen to the music of nature, thats the most beautiful sounds on earth. After that, in my opinion comes CDs. Vinyl is great, too.
I live in a place that only eventually I can listen good live jazz. Thanks to the invention of the recorded music I enjoy as much as is possible, the great musicians like John Coltrane, Lee Morgan, Horace Silver, Charles Mingus, etc. When someone have a good audio system, it is possible to discover many beautiful things that are in those recordings and also the bad things like the annoying noise from vinyl and no emotion with the digital sound. I know that Laser Disc and Reel to Reel tape were superior formats, without many of the flaws than those of these days that are also excessively expensive. My critic is because it is possible to make much better recorded music at affordable prices. Thanks for your comment.
Digital audio does have its issues, but it is the way forward. It does not degrade over time like analogue. The key is the conversion from analogue to digital, and then back to analogue when you want to listen. Modern dacs can have very, very low noise and no jitter. Check Chord Electronics, I believe you will appreciate the work they are doing.
Alfonso - you are correct to some extent - however it is not just the source - there is 'corruption' of the signal thru out the signal processing chain - from room acoustics, recording microphones, recording media, transcription, amplification, speakers etc. The point of audio from the 'audiophile' or enthusiast perspective is to try to replicate a live musical event as realistically as possible - acknowledging that it is impossible to actually reproduce the event! So, that said - in my opinion some equipment (and combination of equipment) do a better job of reproducing the event than other. As you 'upgrade' components in the audio chain you can come closer to realizing the original event. You will soon reach a point of diminishing returns - where a greater investment in equipment yields you very little return in said reproduction. At this point you are truly in the land of 'high end' audio.
Please see the description of my audio system. When I seat in front of it and close my eyes, I feel that the musicians are there in my listening room. Of course that is an illusion that breaks when the scratches, clicks and pops of my LPs appear. And with digital, the sound is less natural, less alive and cannot convey the whole emotion of the music. The best experience that I have in terms of that illusion is with a few original master tapes that I own and some other back-up copies.
+Alfonso Viladoms "Digital music cannot convey the emotion of music, the soul of music as vinyl does" Have you data on the proportion of soul and emotion missing from dijitter music formats to support the above ...facts? Examples for CD and SACD will be fine thanks!
+KeenAesthetic1 You know that human emotions cannot be measured and “the soul of music” is a metaphoric expression. But here are some data: Digital's superiority to Analog in a number of sonic parameters are precision, outer detail, speed stability and noise reduction. Unfortunately, it also subtracts those aspects of the sound which are the vital essence of music; the conveyor of individuality and emotions. That is why Digital is more intellectually than emotionally satisfying. Now, if Dijitter would be better in all parameters the noisy, impractical and anachronistic Vinyl 30 years ago had disappeared. Instead, two modern and “superior” 24 bit formats, DVD-A and SACD are now dead and gone. Those are facts!
A concert (live) without any speaker/amplifiers gives you the most pure sound, it is just you and the performers and the instruments. Nothing can beat this. But hey, the performers cannot visit you every day on every time so there must something in between to overcome this problem as close as is possible. Digital is not bad however what they do with the recordings could be bad, amplifying for example, mess with the recordings. High end does exist, it is just a term to identify quality, as close as can be or as good as can be in the format it supports. Every format can be high end in it's range, that's the tricky part. High-end doesn't mean the best, unbeatable in performance and sound of ALL formats, just of the format. A high-end turntable is really a good turntable but in it's range. High-end audio exists but is not what you think it is, doesn't have to be suberb in all kind of scenario's.
No one with common sense can say that listening to music with scratches, clicks and pops can be a true HI Fi audio reproduction, even with the best turntable / cartridge in the world. It is important to note that these noises are only on the vinyl format, not in the original master tapes, not in the other formats and of course not in live concerts, only if are allowed the audience to eat potato chips during the performance. The Compact Disc has four times less information than the master tapes, the vinyl and the 24 bits SACD and DVD-Audio. There is no a CD player, regardless the price, that can include the information that was not recorded originally and also they cannot convey the full emotion of music, as analog. Obviously with such limitations cannot be a true Hi End format. Now DVD-Audio and SACD are dead and gone and for something would be. So Hi End as supposes it be does not exist.
I have received many comments like yours. Here is my answer again: Young people hear scratches, clicks, pops and specially hiss much better than people of my age.
Yes, but is our nature. I do not think that if we could hear 25,000 cycles or more, the emotion and beauty of music would be better. At my age hardly a can hear more than 12,000 cycles, maybe less, but I can enjoy the music as well as when I was young.
teofilo gill Hi End must be a whole thing. You can own the best turntable, amps and speakers and you heard dirty music with vinyl records or without emotion with clean Compact Discs. The recordings of Rudy Van Gelder in Blue Note and Fantasy Records are excellent for me, no complaints. I own a few reel tapes of those recordings and are great. Thanks for your comment.
Jitter is inherent in oversampling aka high speed digital systems with digital filters. They are actually obsolete, in this day and age and prevail only due to their low cost, not to mention they are fundamentally flawed if the filter is programmed linear phase (the whole point of the method). They are cheaper than true linear n-bit current weighing devices. Although they can can pull off 124dB of silence, where as CWD cant do much more than 17.5bit at 192khz via a 20bit device, Its important to remember following for context: 1. Reel to Reel is the benchmark medium. It wasnt much better than 72dB = 14bit. Did I say 14bit? 24 bit+ is only desirable for processing, its overkill but due to the nature of floating point arithmetic, that needed to be doubled to compete wit integer in terms of precision. double float is 53bit whilst double int is 64bit, go figure. Marketing, sale, numbers. 2. We can hear 20dB into/below noise in the most sensitive region of hearing, this is because noise is usually an averaged measurement, which is why older mediums might measure bad but sound not that bad afterall. Welcome to capitalism. For recording and playback of effects in studio via 17bit CWDs are more than enough, as was the case in the old tape/sampler days leading upto 1997, which was the last time a sampler had CWD, due to the ever increasing needless obsession with bit depth. For transmission 17bit+ is desirable to maintain the artists products, so that its delivered and heard as intended. Theres very little playback equipment can do enhance the signal. Do not fall for it. Its up to artists and engineers to ensure quality recording. In an age where recording technology is widely accessible to non professionals and quality ever increasingly rare, good luck with that. The stark realization that only music issued on LP before 1987 is worthy of titl hifi, with the year 2000 at a push if one researches how it was recorded (i,e, reel to reel straight into HDCD, which do exist but in smaller numbers).
A few years ago an audio engineer told me this: “If you have a book in English and you give it to the best translator to write it in Spanish and then give it to another real good translator to make it again in English and compare it with the original version, you will find many changes in words, grammar and even concepts. Vinyl and digital are two completely different languages that will have several changes, missed things and other added that were not in the original analog source, after the conversion Analog to Digital and then to Analog again. He said: It is impossible to have an identical analog sound than the original, after the digital conversions”. For instance, a back-up copy of an original analog master tape is accurate because it is made with exactly the same language. I think also that the digital formats have too much processing and in my opinion in audio as simple is the thing, it is better. I think you saw these links but anyway I include them again: tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer: “Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right. We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.” I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site. I do not know what is the signal-to-noise ratio of the IEC EQ is, but the tape project people say it's better than Dolby B and DBX and I think also these noise reduction systems have also to much processing. This link is very interesting: www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend This is an abstract: “Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests. One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl. What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better. It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed. Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity. Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download. The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.” More sites about R2R www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ www.horchhouse.com/home-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-2-1 www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/ (Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier or a HQ CD reproducer). www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions: th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html
actually, any bandlimited signal can be perfectly reconstructed using digital sampling. digital audio has been improving for decades but even at its beginning its specs were approaching the limits of human perceptibility
The problem is that all digital formats and vinyl records are far from the original analog master tapes. Too much processing in any case. Maybe this information would be interesting for you: tapeproject.com/ I recommend start with, Why Tape? And www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
@@cinequadom tape is very good, perhaps the best thing that we have short of digital audio. i would argue that the time based errors of digital audio are less perceivable than those from even the best tape machines, and far below the limits of human perception digital audio is almost perfect, its errors mostly pop up in situations requiring processing of digital audio. for instance, nonlinear digital processing can not be properly bandlimited, and therefore will produce aliased harmonics which cannot be eliminated (only reduced), but surely jitter from digital systems is less than the wow and flutter from even the best tape machines
No, that is not the point. I am not seeking for a “perfect or pure sound”, since that is impossible in audio. The point is about the current formats that are not true Hi End or Hi Fi. Hi End is a whole made of several parts and if only one part is poor or bad the sound of the whole system is poor or bad. The poor or bad part is the software - sources of music - not the hardware - equipment -. No one with common sense can say that listening to music with scratches, clicks and pops can be a true HI End Audio reproduction, even with the best equipment in the world. It is important to note that these noises are only on the vinyl format. It not in the original analog master tapes, not in the other formats and of course not in live performances, so what the term High Fidelity means, is not for the anachronistic vinyl because scratches, clicks and pops are faithful to nothing, unless if the audience was allowed to eat potato chips in concerts. The Compact Disc with 16 bits has around four times less information than the master tapes, the vinyl and the 24 bits SACD, DVD-Audio and most Hi-Rez files. There is no a CD player, regardless the price, that can include the information that was not recorded originally. Obviously with such limitation cannot be a true Hi End format. Take in mind also that the two modern and superior 24 bit formats, DVD Audio and SACD are disappeared and for something would be. The new Hi-Rez formats are “analog-like”, their slogan. That automatically confirms the superiority of analog sound which is the reference. But how much “analog-like” are those files? Nobody knows because there is no standard or measure to determine that. More subjective and ambiguous cannot be this “analog-like” term. Therefore, the current formats are limited, corrupted and away from the original master analog tapes that are far from perfection, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital. A true Hi End format at least, must be a replica of the original analog master analog tapes that are not perfect either, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital that are far from them. So, only the “new” high quality Reel to Reel (R2R) direct copies at 2 track and 15 IPS can be extremely close to them and of course with an authentic 100% pure analog sound. Because I own some original master tapes and a few back-up copies, I know the huge sound difference between them and any other format. By the way, the so-called Hi End Audio is only for very rich people, not for audiophiles. They want to own the most expensive things in the world that most people cannot reach and that is their real pleasure, not the music. By logic, they are not true music lovers and even they have not enough time to listen to it. More information about the “new” R2R format in tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer: “Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right. We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.” I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site. www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend This is an abstract: “Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests. One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl. What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better. It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed. Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, surface noise, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity. Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download. The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.” More sites about R2R: www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ horchhouse.com/project-r2r/ www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/ (Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier or a HQ CD reproducer). www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions: th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html So, Hi End or H Fi exists only with this high quality R2R format, with the others not! Unfortunately right now the HQ tapes are very expensive with a few titles and I hope that this reborn and improved format grow enough to down the prices. Thanks for your comment.
Alfonso Viladoms Even though you made this two years ago, I feel compelled to comment on this. I have been around R2R a lot over the course of my career, and while I agree with you that it is far superior to vinyl, I have to take issue with you about your comments regarding digital. For one thing, the CD format using 16 bits that equates to 96dB of dynamic range is not 4 times less than tape. I worked on professional tape recorders and about the best dynamic range they can provide is around 75bB. So tape provides about 100 times LESS dynamic range than the CD. Also the CD has much lower distortion than tape especially at the higher levels of music. About the jitter in digital, it has been eliminated through buffering and reclocking and in any case is much less audible than the speed variations accompanying tape or vinyl. I really can’t understand why you have so much distain for good digital sound. Please explain. But do try to be briefer than this post of yours. Thanks
couldnt agree more,,,its like being in theather listenin orchestar,,,,and then go home and listen it on wav,or flac format,,,no mather what quality of digital format,what mics,plugins,equipment,,,there is no emotion,,,i played a lot of time on acusstic instruments,,,really beautifull songs ,,,and people cried like river flows,,,,, merry xmas by the way,,great video
Audio is an industry, and they do have to come up with « new » systems, gear, etc . in order to renew interest. It works like any other big business and marketing is doing the rest.
+lizichell2 Jitter is more important than any other thing and in my experience reducing it at the maximum makes the sound more analogical. Try the XRCD format with quite reduced jitter in the mastering process, that even at 16 bits/44.1K sounds better than the SACD at 24 bit/96K. www.elusivedisc.com/xrcdinfo.asp www.elusivedisc.com/xrcd24digprocess.pdf
+lizichell2 Jitter is present from the beginning to the end in the digital media. Many expensive CD players are made to reduce jitter in the reproduction but cannot reduce it if is present from the original digital master tapes. For the cost and the general acceptance of CDs an expensive process like that of XRCD is not an option.
I do not understand what you mean. As I know, electronic music is a genre as classical music, jazz, pop, etc. All types of recorded music on vinyl and digital formats cannot qualify for Hi End Audio.
What I mean is that most music looses information in the steps between being recorded -> distributed -> played on your stereo through your speakers. BUT music made in a digital environment in an lossless format will not loose any information before it's played on your speakers. Then of course you could argue that the only true version of the song made is if you listen to it on the same headphones/studio monitors that the producer of the song used as he made the music, but still, you understand what I mean, right?
As I know there is another kind of losses in the digital sound when the analog signal is converted to a binary process and then again to analog. All digital and the vinyl format are far from the original analog master tapes. Here is some information about this: tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” And these are two paragraphs of the first answer: “Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right. We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.” Is interesting that all digital formats have an “analog-like” sound but, what about the pure analog sound of the vinyl format? www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend This is an abstract: “Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests. One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl.” “What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better. It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed. Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity.” “Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.” www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ "Audio tape is the only format that can record and play back pure, natural sound in its whole and original state," Horch House says. "Every other format requires some form of interference with the original audio signal. Audio tape is therefore the only format which allows the listener to hear a recording exactly the way the original artist and producer intended it to sound, before it was altered to fit on a vinyl record, sampled for a CD or squashed down to MP3 size." www.analogarts.net/ “As music lovers, we’re spoilt for choice. Our favorite tunes are now available in a wider variety of formats than ever before. But whether you’re a vinyl collector, a digital convert or one of a growing number of audiophiles who are now rediscovering the joy of reel-to-reel tapes, one thing’s clearly agreed: nothing can ever sound - or feel - quite like the original master tape. And when it comes to masters, analogue will always trump digital, hands down. Listen to an original analogue master tape and you’re hearing exactly what the sound engineer heard on that day, in the studio or on stage, with the band. No remixing, no interference, no compression. Just you and the artist, right there, in the moment - captured in its original essence.” www.analogarts.net/project-r2r www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback internationalphonographinc.com/master_tapes.html (See comments)
1. High end audio does exist if you know what makes music emotional and evolving. 2. Digital has its limitations but has evolved dramaticaly. 3.Turntables are the way to music bliss, but you need to invest a ''high end'' ammount of money to match todays dacs. 4.Listening to music with shity equipement and loving it is only a romantic fact, we all have felt it before but hadn't known high end audio. Listening the same music with a high end audio system is an entirely differed experience, plus your ears dont hurt. 5.In a good audio system, not ultra expencive, even mp3 can sound decent.
+vagomaniac As I said many times, Hi-End is a whole made of several parts and if only one part is poor or bad the sound of the whole system is poor and/or bad. Listen to music with the annoying scratches, clicks and pops cannot be a Hi-End or Hi-Fi reproduction, even with the best equipment.. Now if the Compact Disc would be better than vinyl, 30 years ago this format had disappeared as the Audio Cassette, even the 24 bit DVD-Audio and SACD are dead. Instead the sales of vinyl records, turntables, cartridges, etc. are increasing year by year worldwide and this is because the analog format can convey the full emotion and soul of music and many people prefer it even with pops and clicks, than the clean and cold sound of digital formats. As better is the equipment, the flaws of the actual formats are more evident. For me a true Hi-End format must be a replica of the original analog master tapes and the current formats are far from that. Maybe this link could be interesting for you: tapeproject.com/
+dndlionx Much better for me are the original analog master tapes that I have and some back-up copies. Maybe this site would be interesting for you: tapeproject.com/ Happy New Year.
Your right. neither format is perfect... I prefer vinyl personally, maybe cos I was brought up listening to it and I like the aesthetic n interaction u get with it. Thanks for this vid, made me feel better about the cheap antiquated audio gear I use. You have probably saved me hundreds of pounds on trying to get a better sound that I might not achieve anyway lol, all the best.
Alfonso Viladoms CD quality is sufficent for me but if it's not to you then there is 24-bit/192kHz which is 9 million bits per second which is 6 times more than CD. It's still not unlimited but the quality should be indistinguishable from master tape
Andre Hallqvist The problem is not to store more or less bits. Why don’t you try to listen a XRCD against the same title in CD, both are 16 bit formats. You are going to hear a notable difference in favor of the much less jitter XRCD format. You can try with these titles: XRCD: www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=9071360&style=music&setpref=none&x=17064478859400 CD: www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=6823855&style=music&setpref=none&x=17064478859400 Here is the link for XRCD if you prefere to try other titles: www.elusivedisc.com/Home-Of-XRCD/products/859/
The comments in the video have merit, no audio playback form is perfect. Nothing is better than live music itself. I do however find the satisfaction of listening to high end audio music playback in the comfort of my own home and convenience of my own time to be a reasonable trade off.
I think it's still current. For instance DVD- Audio and SACD are disappeared. The new Hi-Rez formats are “analog-like”, their slogan. That automatically confirms the superiority of analog sound which is the reference. But how much “analog-like” are those files? Nobody knows because there is no standard or measure to determine that. More subjective and ambiguous cannot be this “analog-like” term. Therefore, the current formats are limited, corrupted and away from the original master analog tapes that are far from perfection, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital. A true Hi End format at least, must be a replica of the original analog master analog tapes that are not perfect either, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital that are far from them. So, only the “new” high quality Reel to Reel (R2R) direct copies at 2 track and 15 IPS can be extremely close to them and of course with an authentic 100% pure analog sound. Maybe these links could be helpful: tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer: “Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right. We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.” I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site. www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend This is an abstract: “Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests. One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl. What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better. It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed. Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity. Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download. The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.” More sites about R2R www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ www.horchhouse.com/home-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-2-1 www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/ (Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier or a HQ CD reproducer). www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions: th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html Unfortunately right now the tapes are very expensive with a few titles and I hope that this reborn and improved format grow enough to down the prices.
High end audio is = Live music in an acoustically correct environment. And Alfonso as the only person in the audience so no one can make any noises. Hopefully someone have greased up the drummer chair so it does not squeek.
+Jørgen Mengshoel As you I never heard scratches, clicks and pops in live music. These anomalies appear only in the vinyl format and are not in the original analog master tapes. Listen to music with those annoying noises cannot be a Hi End reproduction even in the best acoustically environment. I can play my drum set and the chirping of birds and other external noises without being disturbed.
the truthful nature of music is it disappears into the air as soon as it is created by design,,, it is unnatural to capture that magic in a bottle.. or a vinyl.. or a tape and recreate all the natural beauty of its creation. I like tape and vinyl.
It's scary. I am an audiophile. I look like Alfonzo, I have a drumset in my music room which I play to recordings and I agree with him. It's a trade off that you don't get with love music.
One cannot argue with their own ears and what they hear. I used to hear music, but didn't pay attention to the nuances of music. I grew up in the so called golden age of stereo, but l wasn't in to music and audio like I am to today. Since I will most likely spend the rest of my days on earth in pursuit of best system and recordings I can afforded and probably not afford, I will continue my journey. In a chaotic world, music is the only thing I can count on, and one of the few things left that I truly can enjoy.
It is not necessary a blindfold test to hear scratches, clicks and pops of the vinyl format. But analog recording always trumps over digital, especially with a high quality format like the Reel to Reel tape. More information on the following sites: tapeproject.com/ www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ www.analogarts.net/ www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
The pops and clicks of the vinyl format are ok and make it that much more special. Record a vinyl format on tape and cd. Then do a blind test to listen and see if you actually know what you are listening to.
High Fidelity tries to reproduce the sound as close as is possible as live music and nobody listen to scratches, clicks and pops on live performances, only if are allowed the audience to eat potato chips during the event. Those annoying noises only are present in the anachronistic vinyl, not in any other format, and of course not in real life. If you like to hear music with those noises and you think that is very special, well that is not relevant for anybody. It is also irrelevant and a waste of time to record a vinyl to R2R or CD and try to perceive or not the differences between them in a blind test. That is not the point, the real thing is that vinyl and digital formats are quite far from the original analog master tapes. Obviously you did not read anything about the new Reel to Reel format, so I made some abstracts of the information on the sites I gave you. tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” And these are two paragraphs of the first answer: “Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right. We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.” Is interesting that all digital formats have an “analog-like” sound but, what about the pure analog sound of the vinyl format? www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend This is an abstract: “Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests. One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl.” “What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better. It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed. Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity.” “Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.” www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ "Audio tape is the only format that can record and play back pure, natural sound in its whole and original state," Horch House says. "Every other format requires some form of interference with the original audio signal. Audio tape is therefore the only format which allows the listener to hear a recording exactly the way the original artist and producer intended it to sound, before it was altered to fit on a vinyl record, sampled for a CD or squashed down to MP3 size." www.analogarts.net/ “As music lovers, we’re spoilt for choice. Our favorite tunes are now available in a wider variety of formats than ever before. But whether you’re a vinyl collector, a digital convert or one of a growing number of audiophiles who are now rediscovering the joy of reel-to-reel tapes, one thing’s clearly agreed: nothing can ever sound - or feel - quite like the original master tape. And when it comes to masters, analogue will always trump digital, hands down. Listen to an original analogue master tape and you’re hearing exactly what the sound engineer heard on that day, in the studio or on stage, with the band. No remixing, no interference, no compression. Just you and the artist, right there, in the moment - captured in its original essence.” www.analogarts.net/project-r2r www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback internationalphonographinc.com/master_tapes.html (See comments) store.acousticsounds.com/s/462?keywords=NL100416&NL100416&Banner&AS_NL (New titles)
The pops and clicks are what make vinyl unique. The entire point of CD was to eliminate the noise generated by records and hiss on tapes. High Fidelity clean audio will trick you into believing that you are hearing a natural sound. I have seen it for myself. Try a blindfold test and you will see most people don't know what is natural or not. Just like those snooty whine tasters that don't know what they are drinking unless there is a label on it.
What you say about the “unique” pops and clicks of vinyl it was a headache of sound engineers and audiophiles all over the world. That why was the invention of the CD, primordially to eliminate those annoying noises. I do not believe in blind tests because the sound listening is very subjective and is important to have very high quality audio equipment that can reproduce the most minimum detail. For instance: if I record a vinyl to a CD recorder (I have one) the reproduction it will be different because the circuit and electronic parts are different and additional to the circuits of the preamplifier. The same thing occurs with a tape recorder. A non experienced listener can hear no significant differences between the original vinyl and their copies. Anyway, you believe in blind tests but I do not. There will never be a coincidence between our two radically different appreciations.
I agree wth you Mr. Viladoms, at least in principle, that "high-end" audio does not exist. Perhaps vinyl is indeed "purer" in audio quality than digital but, if we discussing the most accurate reproduction of recorded audio then, today's consumer electronics is arguably and subjectively superior. I simply do not hear "clicks," "pops" and "hissing" in my digital music...only absolutely beauty that indeed transports me to other times and places! As Mr. Larson has previously well articulated, digital "jitter" has at the very least, become inaudible to most of us. Today, better sourcing of digital recordings, more affordable DACs (crutial) and audio componentry now greatly compliment today's listening experience thus, 'fooling' (if you will) one's ears and mind into believing great digital audio can be experienced. I am well into my 60's and I grew up during the periods of the 60s and 70s when "33rpm" and "45rpm" vinyl discs were prolific. Thanks to good friend's dad long ago passed, I learned to listen to great music in vinyl and I prefer digital audio. No, "high-end" audio does not exist, only better delivery to one's ears of the original recording. Semantics....? Best wishes and Happy listening to all!
Thanks Lupe for your comments. Because I bought many years ago a prosumer Technics RS 1506 Reel to Reel recording machine and I own some original professional tapes and a few back-up copies, all in 2 tracks and 15 inches per second (IPS), I can hear the huge difference between these and the music from vinyl and digital formats. First, the open reel professional tapes does not have scratches, clicks and pops and very, very low hiss, much greater dynamic range than vinyl, absolute accurate traced of the tracks and immune to resonances and vibrations. It is pure analog sound without the issues of the conversion to digital. The commercial tapes of 4 tracks and 7.5 IPS are without scratches, clicks and pops but yes with higher hiss, reduced dynamic range and an absurd way of recording on four narrow tracks two sides A & B as on vinyl. Unnecessary because it is possible to put the whole recording in just one side of the tape and with much better sound at 2 tracks and easier to handle. These complications and the advent of the audio cassette much easier to handle, less expensive and perfect for car-audio were the killers of R2R the most promising format for a real HI Fi reproduction. Now some audio companies are trying a reborn of R2R with very high quality copies in two tracks and at 15 ips and those are like replicas of the original analog master tapes. Unfortunately there is a shortage of titles and expensive as the new recording machines. So Hi End Audio is only for very rich people, not for audiophiles. Meanwhile we are hearing not a really Hi End Audio reproduction, some like you without the annoying noises of vinyl and others with clicks and pops but with a more natural sound with the full convey of the emotion of music. I think there is not a theme of semantics. As I said many times, Hi-End Audio is a whole made of several parts and if only one part is poor or bad the sound of the whole system is poor or bad. In this case the bad part are the current formats. Well, happy listening of recorded music, to all of us, as much as we can until now. I include some information about R2R: First the great piece of engineering, the Studer 820: th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html And these other sites: tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with Why Tape? www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ www.analogarts.net/ www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
No part of affordable(whatever that word means to you, 50euro or 5000eur, it doesn't matter, it's still true;-) audio reproduction chain is as limited or as you say "corrupted" as transducers (speakers, headphones...). Ok and microphones, but recording studios can afford a whole colletion of hi-end mics. And hopefully know which to use.
The best Hi End microphones can give an excellent recording sound in the studio but without scratches, clicks and pops that appears only in the vinyl format and that is what I call corruption. Not for instance, the acceptable distortion values on speakers, amplifiers and the other components of the chain.
Well yes, i ment that even completely untrained person can hear difference in sound from different speakers. Or headphones... Not necesarily telling which one is better, but once you listen to like 3 different pairs you can easily say which one is connected without looking... It is hard or impossible for someone not really into HIFI to tell apart different decent amplifiers by sound. Or semi-decent DACs/CD or other digital sources. Never really considered vinyl to be of real consideration for majority, or for me, you know, because lazyness (and fragility of records if improperly handeled), i think good DAC and silent computer is good enough. For me.
You should try digital music with a dac (digital to analog converter). Sounds just as natural or even more natural than vinyl, since vinyl adds noice and all sorts of prolems. But i made the same mistake myself, and listened to digital music in binary for many years :(
The new DACs are more and more analog than before or more “analog-like” and those are their slogans. That automatically confirms the superiority of analog sound which is the reference. But how much “analog” are those DACs? Nobody knows because there is no standard or measure to determine that. More subjective and ambiguous cannot be this “more analog” term. Yes, vinyl has many flaws and the worst is the annoying surface noises, but it is not the only source of analog sound. Because those vinyl flaws, now some audio companies are trying to reborn the Reel to Reel or R2R format with direct copies from the Master tapes at 2 tracks and 15 IPS, which is until now the best format and the only one that deserves the Hi End Audio qualifier. More information about the “new” R2R format in tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer: “Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right. We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.” I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site. www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend This is an abstract: “Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests. One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl. What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better. It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed. Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity. The Tape Project, which peddles legacy albums ranging from Sonny Rollins’ Saxophone Colossus to The London Philharmonic’s Arnold Overtures. The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall. Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.” And more sites about R2R www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/ www.horchhouse.com/home-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-2-1 www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions: th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html Unfortunately right now the tapes are very expensive but more and more titles are appearing and prices will be more affordable in the future. I think that this format is growing more and more and soon will see new machines in the market at reasonable prices. www.unitedhomeproducts.com/the_uha_phase1_tape_deck.htm US$6,500.00 is less expensive than many “Hi End” turntables and / or cartridges or even phono preamplifiers and step-up-transformers. Here more models of this company (and more expensive): www.unitedhomeproducts.com/prices_and_features.htm
Alfonso Viladoms: Here comes one right back at you Al Baby! I don't think he even knows what "HE" is writing about. You need to edit your comment for errors and omissions. LOL
English is not my language, that's obvious. The minimum mistakes anyone can have, even the Anglo people, does not matter if the message is understandable. Somehow silly your comment:)
Alfonso Viladoms: The message you are sending is very understandable but using your words it is simply SILLY. Perhaps you should change the title of your video. As far as the human ear is able to detect, very good to high end audio can faithfully reproduce the live studio sound. The actual sound one prefers may not be what was created in the studio anyway.
When digital came out, sound engineers didn't know how to set up for the BEST digital recording. Record companies just took analog(vinyl) recordings and put them on a CD. BOTH sounded AWFUL. I lost a great deal of money on throwing away those bad recordings. But the engineers learned and the vinyl was mastered and cleaned up to the point that it could be digitized and sound very good.
As I know, the first Compact Discs came from digital master tapes that had 16 bits and 44.1 kHz. Those digital tapes were transfers from the original master analog tapes or sub-masters of them. Later for instance, with the 75° Anniversary of Blue Note Records, Rudy Van Gelder made new re-mastered digital tapes at 20 and 24 bits with 96 and even 192 kHz. I think the others are making the same thing. In my experience a new re-mastered Blue Note CD has slightly better sound than the same old disc, but a really significant improvement is the XRCD format that has a huge reduction of jitter in the digital mastering process. The sound is close to the analog sound of vinyl but without noise. But vinyl conveys more the emotion of music. www.elusivedisc.com/xrcdinfo.asp www.elusivedisc.com/xrcd24digprocess.pdf
What you all need is cables created in a quantum tunnel, formed in zero-g space near a black hole. Only then can you truly experience audio the way it was meant to.
+o0Donuts0o
very good advice...
+o0Donuts0o LMAO! :P At least something to this effect is what some complete audio *nuts* would have you believe!... Oh, and don't forget that the "quantum tunnel" cables also have to be kept at or near absolute zero using liquid nitrogen around the cable at all times for the treble to be completely "open and airy"! LOL!... Oh, and of course these magic cables have to cost upwards of a million dollars per meter, otherwise they simply *couldn't* be as good as they could be! LMFAO!
+JoeJ8282 The cost of this cables are normal price of Hi-End Audio.
Haha! Yeah, I agree, to a certain extent, but there is a limit before the price of "high-end" audio cables just gets exorbitantly high for no real useful reason, and the performance doesn't really get any better... I try to use cables that are right at the best curve of the price/performance ratio, especially since (I will admit that) I don't have the absolute best equipment in the world, just good enough for me, (and the best my budget will allow)... Anyway, I was just being sarcastic there above, as was the oODonutsOo guy, I'm pretty sure!
+JoeJ8282 Of course, all we are sarcastic about the absurds of Hi-End Audio.
I make my own cables buying the parts in DIY stores. Happy New Year.
Concert halls or our houses are not anechoic chambers. Noise is everywhere.
Even our ears make their own noises. In nature there is no absolute silence.
All instruments produce intermodulation, noise and jitter, none can create a perfect sound.
It's just a matter of "how much" is "too much". If you can't hear it, why obsess about it?
The truest comment on the entire post.
Because "audiophiles" are mostly gullible people.
That's the best thing that the Hi End Audio industry has to sell countless absurd things at an unjustifiable extremely high prices.
Can anyone realy think that the Oracle V1.5 HR Ultra Wide speaker cables costs $53,000.00 and really are good enough for that price?
www.thecableco.com/Product/Oracle-V1-5-HR-Ultra-Wide
Maybe they aren't really audiophiles, just stupid people who were told they would be audiophiles if they bought overpriced products.
can you explain me what this cable will change (with electric and electronic laws) when you have Cap resistor and coil for passive crossover in you re speaker ?!!
I've felt my soul shivering to the dark, booming rock of "Queen II" on a muffled old cassette in a bus on the highway at 6 AM, watching the first light of dawn.
I went to ecstasy watching a live orchestra making the whole hall rattle with a shattering performance of Holst's Planets on a Tuesday night.
I drifted off to some sublime musical land with Boards of Canada's "Geogaddi" on my cheap MP3 player in a crowded bus on the way to college.
I've explored new musical galaxies with Com Truise's "In Decay" playing off an USB stick on my (rented) car radio as I drove up the hills under red skies at dusk.
Emotions are not in the music, much less on the audio format. Emotions are inside us. Every format has its charm, every experience has its worth; and when you can get the good out of every experience, there's no room for frustration. When the *music* is "high end", the noise and the distortion are secondary; heck, they can even become part of the enjoyment.
So here's to all the high end music in the world, and all our shitty low end gear. Cheers!
Fernie Canto Thanks for your comments.
+Fernie Canto Hear hear! Amen. I too have been ENJOYING music my whole life since my first memories with my family and friends in every situation that life has to offer. Every genre of music reminds me of certain life events, history, time, and most importantly, PEOPLE! Whether it was on my broken free earbuds I found and used for several years, the horrible rigged system I had in my $500 first car (that was the best time ever), to my current nice system in my new car... it is ALL NICE and can't live without it!
+Fernie Canto thank you for introducing me to Com Truise
+Fernie Canto Props for BOC
dndlionx
It's amazing how music connects us! Cheers!
It should simply be renamed 'high price audio'!
Alfonso, you are a wise man, but trust me, digital high resolution formats come very close to the perfect sound. The real problem is quality of production these days.
MuristekTV Very interesting your comment. Thanks...
01egna Actually, DSD is inferior to PCM because DSD files have lots of noise in the ultra high frequencies while PCM has none.
I'd argue both are superior until they are filtered. DSD is alright with careful design but pointless when PCM can already do it at less disk cost.
lets create new technology, an alternative route to measure audio directly to digital... More efficient ways of registering data... I believe that rethinking the system from scratch is necessary... How about mimic nature...
High End refers to PRICE. High Fidelity refers to the sound quality.
Jitter is not inherent to Digital file based music. It is in the transmission medium of Streaming files. Playing a CD in a CD Player does not experience Jitter because it is not transmitted. The transmission Reading and Converting does not have to be synchronized in the way that series transmitted data does.
Further, serial transmission of data has been going on for a very extended period of time. They are Error Detection and Error Correction down to the point where you can be assured of Bit-For-Bit perfection on the receiving end.
In modern Streaming Players, there are way to reduce Jitter to nearly nothing.
Next, what matters is the music and how it effects you, not the technical aspects behind it.
My audio system consists in:
A beautiful pair of Martin Logan CLS IIz pure electrostatic panels, two improved ASL “Hurricane” monoblocks in triode operation, an Audio Research SP9 Mk III with a famous and remarkable phono stage, an especial and limited edition VPI/Denon DP-75 turntable with DD High Torque Motor without cogging, split heavy platter with the Achromat on it, has a very heavy sandwiched plinth (steel, aluminum, lead and wood) over four springs that are in a wood base with spikes and with a total weight of 60 pounds; includes a GST 801 Lustre dynamic “magnetic” arm and a special limited edition Denon DL-103SA MC cartridge and other things like a MHZS CD88KE CD player that has the famous Burr-Brown PCM1794 DAC chipset but also very important, a Reel to Reel Technics RS 1506 almost professional recorder/player.
I own some original master tapes and back-up copies (half track, 15 ips), more on 1/4 track at 7.5 ips, some of them with Dolby B (Noise Reduction System), almost a thousand LP Jazz records and less than 300 CDs and of course a VPI 16.5 vinyl washing machine and the appropriate cleaning fluids and brushes.
+Alfonso Viladoms Puse en un comentario de que lo que Ud. dice es Exacto.
Unas dos veces me pasó de escuchar música y que la batería sonara como en
vivo así como voces, núnca el tema completo.
+Buddy Holly Nuevamente gracias por tus comentarios y disculpa la tardanza en mi respuesta.
+Alfonso Viladoms Gracias a tí por por responder !!!!!!
lol Martin logans are very very good this guy is so boring ha ha
+jonas Dogue de Bordeaux
Show this video at mass.
With the accurate use of dither and a bit depth depth allowing sufficient dynamic range, the jitter of digital resampling can be made negligible to the point where it is below our threshold of hearing. There is no such thing as perfect replication however, it is no longer the aim for recorded sound to present an accurate representation, but rather it presents an enhanced version. "Perfecting sound forever" by Greg Milner is well worth a read if anyone's interested in this area.
I am not seeking for a “perfect or pure sound”, since that is impossible. The point is about the current formats that are not Hi End.
No one with common sense can say that listening to music with scratches, clicks and pops can be a true HI Fi audio reproduction, even with the best equipment in the world.
It is important to note that these noises are only on the vinyl format, not in the original master tapes, not in the other formats and of course not in live concerts, only if are allowed the audience to eat potato chips during the performance.
The Compact Disc has four times less information than the master tapes, the vinyl and the 24 bits SACD and DVD-Audio. There is no a CD player, regardless the price, that can include the information that was not recorded originally and also they cannot convey the full emotion of music, as analog. Obviously with such limitations cannot be a true Hi End format.
Now DVD-Audio and SACD are dead and gone and for something would be.
A real Hi-End format must be a REPLICA of the original analog master tapes that are by no means perfect, but current formats are far away from them.
Maybe this link could be interesting for you: tapeproject.com/
I recommend starting with “Why Tape?”
Thanks for the tip of Greg Milner’s book.
I want to express my gratitude to all the people who have been subscribing to my channel. Really THANK YOU!
THE EVOLUTION OF GREAT SOUND.....XRCD!
XRCD allows the listener to hear what the producer and artist intended... the sound of the original master tape!
I own almost all the Blue Note Audio Wave’s XRCDs and their sound is the best I ever heard on the CD format, but I also own the old original same titles in vinyl and except for the scratches, clicks and pops the sound is more natural and emotive. Thanks for your comment.
Thank You Alfonso I agree with your Observations on music. I met a man 40 years ago who gave me insight on what a good sound system should sound like, This is what he said. When you go listen to a live performance then Go home and play it on your system If it sounds like the concert this is all you need in a system. Too many WACK JOBS are making money selling over the top expensive systems that Musicians NEVER intended their music to be listened on. I Love Music and seeing it live is the best. I saw and listened to Julien Bream, Igor Stravinsky perform The Firebird ballet, Sonny and Terry, Andre Segovia The Rolling Stones, John Lennon and his wife in Toronto, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison many times, Janis Joplin, Canned Heat, The Grateful Dead Etc. Now I am enjoying the bird songs in the Morning and day in Northern Thailand. The Birds are the best by far and they give free concerts. My Instrument is a Nikon and my Photos are silent. Your System is as good as you need, Anything more is a waste of money.
+Daniel Shara
I agree what you say. Thanks for your comment and best regards.
Well stated and very true.
It's a shame you have convinced yourself that digital audio sounds artificial. The reality is that no other capture and replay system in existence can match or better the performance of a well designed digital PCM system.
This is usually influenced by a misunderstanding of how digital audio works. That data in between samples is lost, or that there is a stair-step like effect on the captured audio as popularly used in visual aids.
The biggest idea that most can't wrap their heads around is, how can a digital system possibly reproduce clean sound when it only has 2-3 samples per cycle at high frequencies? It must sound artificial. In fact this was solved by Nyquist and proved by Shannon over 60 years ago and if you look at the output of a DAC at high frequencies, you will see a smooth analog sine wave with vanishingly low distortion and noise that no analog system can compete with. It's not even a fair game.
Jitter is also so low these days with even moderately well designed systems that you're just playing into a fantasy. Do either digital or analog recordings sounds like nature? No, a 2 channel system is unable to realistically emulate a volumetric space as you would hear in nature. That is a limitation of the recording and playback methods and has nothing to do with the actual storage of the audio.
Again, it's a shame you and many others have convinced yourselves that digital is somehow compromised, when you are actually sitting on the most accurate and consistent audio storage/playback system in existence.
+dwindeyer Many people say that the sound of PCM is artificial and also TEAC agrees.
The new Teac NT-503 DAC has a PCM to DSD converter because the last has better, more analogical sound: www.teac.com/product/nt-503/
You don't think they have a horse in the race? This is just outright gullibility
something tells me teac wants to sell some DSD units. you know, them being a business and all...
Yea, I can record any turntable with a laptop and play it back to the 100K idiot and he will never know the difference. Fact. But hey, each to his own.
www.cambridgeaudio.com/gbr/es/node/511
Jitter errors are no different than amplitude errors or noise. If small enough, they are not audible. If you sample a sine wave with jitter, equivalent errors can be modeled as amplitude errors. Double blind ABX testing can quickly determine the threshold of audibility of jitter. You can do it yourself and see what level you can hear. Every thing has errors. What matters is the size of the error. If it is below the threshold of perception, what you have is indistinguishable from perfection.
+Dana Olson
As I know, jitter affects the listening in many ways and is not audible like one type of distortion.
I read this on “Effects of Jitter in Audio” www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/jitter2_e.html
Nice video :) and loved your use of words - digitter, etc :)
+dhruvgrg Thanks for your comment.
Time based errors in nature are caused by variances in gas density and composition, causing very muc impedance like phenomenon with the phase shift, distortion and temporal shift usually associated. "Jitter" does exist in nature too and there is no perfect sound.
When it comes to digital vs analog, the moment the discussion goes to "infinite waveform" or "sound is analog", we know that the person has no formal training, does not use science as the basis for their theories and most of all; does not understand how digital audio works. It is not like analog, we have to throw away our "analog brain" and start to think more in abstracts. I've done this since the 80s, have formal education as sound engineer and electronics. I still do not understand digital sound like i do analog. Analog is intuitive, digital is anything but. Just understanding why the "stairstep waveform" we so often see is wrong takes quite a bit of understanding. Trust is the key here, just trust what science says about it and find your way to get the sound you need. I warn you, it might lead one to admit they like distortion and non linear response. Nothing wrong with that, just as long as it is not called "real, natural" or any of such nonsense.
Thanks for your interesting comment. Sorry, until now I can respond to you.
sure - there are a number of both turntables and cartridges which are able to 'reduce' surface noise to SOME degree. for example there are some dynavector moving coil cartridges which - using a smaller stylus - sit a bit lower in the groove and manage to avoid some of the existing damage which may have been captured by the vinyl surface...
There is not a turntable, tonearm or cartridge that can reduce the scratches, clicks and pops. But yes, there are some styluses like the Shibata that can reduce somehow these noises, but there is not a needle or any other thing that can completely eliminate them.
Hi-End Audio is a whole made of several parts and if only one part is poor or bad the sound of the whole system is poor or bad.
The poor or bad part is the software - sources of music - not the hardware.
No one with common sense can say that listening to music with scratches, clicks and pops can be a true HI End Audio reproduction, even with the best equipment in the world.
It is important to note that these noises are only on the vinyl format. It not in the original analog master tapes, not in the other formats and of course not in live performances, so what the term High Fidelity means, is not for the anachronistic vinyl because scratches, clicks and pops are faithful to nothing, unless if the audience was allowed to eat potato chips in concerts.
The Compact Disc with 16 bits has around four times less information than the master tapes, the vinyl and the 24 bits SACD, DVD-Audio and most Hi-Rez files. There is no a CD player, regardless the price, that can include the information that was not recorded originally. Obviously with such limitation cannot be a true Hi End format.
But the Compact Disc's superiority to Vinyl in a number of sonic parameters are precision, outer detail, speed stability, dynamic range, channel separation which means better soundstage, up to 80 minutes of continuous recorded music, no noise floor, scratches, clicks and pops; no mistracking, wow and flutter, eccentric center holes and warped discs; no rumble, hum, record wear, without corrosive dust attracted by electrostatic charges, no friction and harm of the laser beam to the disc and no wear of it, no pre or post echoes, no coloration by acoustic reflections and vibrations, easy to handle, play, clean and store and without the necessity of adjustments on the pick-up system by the user.
Unfortunately, it also subtracts those aspects of the sound which are the vital essence of music; ie convey of individuality and emotions. That is why Digital is more intellectually than emotionally satisfying. This is especially true for those who are very familiar with excellent analog sound.
Now, if the Compact Disc would be better in ALL parameters the noisy, impractical and anachronistic Vinyl had disappeared more than 30 years ago as the audio cassette, but Vinyl is very alive with increasing sales year by year worldwide and this is because the analog format can convey ALL the emotion and “soul” of music and many people prefer it even with pops and clicks*, than the clean but less emotive sound of the digital formats. *(By logic, only one single click and/or pop is enough to disqualify vinyl as a Hi End Audio product).
Now take in mind that those who disappeared were the two modern and superior 24 bit formats, DVD Audio and SACD. So, something is wrong with digital audio.
The new Hi-Rez formats are “analog-like”, their slogan. That automatically confirms the superiority of analog sound which is the reference. But how much “analog-like” are those files? Nobody knows because there is no standard or measure to determine that. More subjective and ambiguous cannot be this “analog-like” term.
Many audiophiles found that the sound of these files is not as good as they should be and reject the so-called PC-Audio because among other things, computers are not Hi End Audio products, they do not have discrete circuits and premium parts with very low tolerances.
Therefore, the current formats are limited, corrupted and away from the original master analog tapes that are far from perfection, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital.
A true Hi End format at least, must be a replica of those masters and so far only the high quality Reel to Reel (R2R) tapes can be extremely close to them and of course with an authentic 100% pure analog sound.
Because I own some original master tapes and a few back-up copies, I know the huge difference between them and any other format.
By the way, the so-called Hi End Audio is only for very rich people, not for audiophiles. They want to own the most expensive things in the world that most people cannot reach and that is their real pleasure, not the music. For logic, they are not true music lovers and even they have not enough time to listen to it.
More information about The “new” R2R format in tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?”
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
www.analogarts.net/project-r2r www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
www.analogarts.net/project-r2r
www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/
Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier.
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
(Short article that mentions some R2R vintage high quality 2 tracks and 15 IPS of velocity).
And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions:
th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html
Unfortunately right now the tapes are very expensive with a few titles and I hope that this reborn and improved format grow enough to down the prices.
I agree that there are limits to the storage of sound waves. I think many would say that the sound of the music on a pair of 2.99 earbuds may be worse than some 75.00 headphones. There is a law of diminishing returns that applies to music as well as many other subjects.
Thanks for your comments.
Only 1.6% of people tested can correctly pick 6 out of 6 songs in the uncompressed WAV file format versus a compressed 320 kbps and 128 kbps file when all three three are juxtaposed for their comparison: and with no time limit for the test. 4.5% can pick 5/6 songs correctly.
Thanks for your comment.
I'm not the least frustrated listening to recorded music... I can listen for hours upon hours without listener's fatigue. But I've found that possible only with tube equipment regardless of the original source of the music... I'm never frustrated and I have an extensive classical and jazz library. Tubes let some air into the music and noticeably expand the soundstage where it sounds far more relaxed and alive. I recommend that people start looking into affordable Hybrid Tube Amps and experience the difference from all solid state amps themselves. I say this as a professional musician.
I still have an Audio Research D200 Solid State amplifier with Multiple-Emitter Transistors or METs. These devices have the rugged, high-heat, high-current capability of single emitter bipolar transistors (which can have a rougher, harder sonic character), but they also have a natural sweetness and musicality often associated with MOSFET transistors (which can be more fragile and prone to failure). In short, the METs deliver the best of both worlds.
This power amplifier also does not produce any listening fatigue, but later I found a pair of ASL “Hurricane” 200 watts monoblocks, 100 W in triode mode that I am using, to be a perfect match for my Martin Logan CLS IIz pure electrostatic panels. With these amps, the bass power and deepness is incredible for this kind of speakers. I am really glad with my audio system but not with the current formats.
Thanks for your comment.
one thing for sure is you need high end speakers lol to output whatever quality as it should
My Martin Logan pure electrostatic panels are really great. But even with the best speakers of the world, if you know or think which are those, is impossible to take out the annoying noises of vinyl and they cannot eliminate jitter and other flaws of digital formats.
True high end audio does not exists. Personal preference in audio does exist. If you listen to a 20000 dollar speaker and a 500 dollar speaker the one you choose to fit your musical tastes needs is the high end for you. Sorry people the only true to life recording is an true analog source recorded on true analog equipment. No way around it no matter what you say or want to say. Noise is part of life. If it's present in the recording. True every device adds noise but digital devices add artificial noises not natural to life. I love my cds and records and listen to both. But I listen to lps anytime I get a chance.
rbeez2004 Your comment is not new for me. Some others wrote basically the same thing. You can read about it here.
Anyway I am going to repeat some of the things I answered before.
I own an excellent HI FI system and details about it are somewhere here.
Scratches, clicks and pops are inherent of the vinyl format and are not present in the original analog master tapes. The invention of the CD format was primordially to eliminate those annoying noises.
Noise is not part of music. For instance, all professional recording studios over the world are isolated from external noise.
In a concert hall with classical music, the audience tries to stay as quiet as is possible during performance and if someone coughs, she or he feels very badly. Neither, you can go into the hall when the performance was started. It is not allowed to talk, sing, tap your feet or clap your hands.
Now if I go to a classical performance, I would like to listen only the music and I do not concentrate to hear the rustle of clothing or the breath of the musicians or if someone makes some noise changing the score page.
I read somewhere about that the American audiophiles listen through their audio systems these non-musical noises and are very happy if these are present, thinking that the equipment has better detail and therefore is better.
If you are that kind of audiophile, is easy to understand why you enjoy noise with the music, even in the not scratched digital formats.
well I'm glad I have low fi stereo system lol th-cam.com/video/4Fujudzro64/w-d-xo.html
I agree with Sorin below. When attending live music, there is all kinds of ambient noise. People coughing, fans blowing, musicians moving instruments about. When a musician plays the flute you never hear the pure sound of the flute, but also the noise of the breath being blown across pipe. Same with a plucked Double Bass or Harpsichord - you can hear the pluck. Digital which seemingly has absolute quiet in places doesn't seem quite right to me and can actually make me a little edgy at times. :)
Thanks for your comment. Nobody hears scratches, clicks, pops and rumble in a live concert. This is the point, the additional noise present in vinyl records. By other way, recording studios are insulated of outside noise. Engineers try to reduce all the noise that is not intrinsic in the expression of music and definitely wanted to eliminate the annoying noise of vinyl records, that is the principal reason of the invention of CD format. Best regards.
i bet he likes to tell kids that santa does not exist.
Santa does not exist!
Do you mean that my video is for naive audiophiles?
It does exist in some places. For example, the original source, there the sound has not gone through analogue processing where it can be affected by noise, and harmonic distortion, and it has not been sampled and turned digital. I guess for the purpose of perfect sound we need to enjoy it at it's source!
I think this information would be interesting for you:
tapeproject.com/
I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer:
“Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right.
We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.”
I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site.
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
This is an abstract:
“Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests.
One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl.
What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better.
It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed.
Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity.
Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.
The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.”
More sites about R2R
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
horchhouse.com/project-r2r/
www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/
(Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier or a HQ CD reproducer).
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions:
th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for your comment.
Tempo is time based in nature, as is tone frequency constant changes between notes. get your music direct from the string for best results.
I chopped off my ears years ago and poured drano in my ear canals.
I was sick of my ears not hearing in high fidelity as they are just a result of blind evolution. So stupid.
I'm waiting for engineers to design something better than these idiotic ears.
CD's have a course sound. They recreate the music, relying on guesswork
to fill in the gaps. SACD and 24Bit 192KHz is where it's at.
There has been extensive scientific research that refutes your claims. I'd believe science rather than some random noob any day.
One's critical hearing and contentment level with what they're hearing count for something too. Science rocks, but there are still many who still marvel and love listening to their 'imperfect formats' with great gear!
Hahahahaha. You spend your money fool. :)
They certainly recreate it better than any other format - except the real thing. Sorry man. You need education.
Actually, recent scientific discoveries are beginning to point to the idea that life as we know it is nothing more than a computer simulation in which we are all taking an active part. Therefore, everything IS digital and 'time-based'. Reality is quantized which means that digital reproduction is actually the most accurate way of capturing sound which itself is digitized.
It's amazing how the System uses "experts" as those because it wants us to behave like robots, without feelings, not free minds and above all to be machines of insatiable consumption.
If you believe you are digital I do not blame you, but sound waves in Nature are sinusoidal not staggered and recorded sound is more natural and exciting than digital.
If I go to see a live artist,playing an acoustic guitar, and singing, He or she will have some imperfections in the voice, the guitar will have imperfections in the tuning, there will be noise from other people in the room, the room will have effects on the acoustics, your ears are not perfect, does this mean music does not exist!!
Music and sound exists, Hi-End Audio not because the current formats do not qualify for that.
I do not seek perfection or pure sound because that is impossible. In your example of live music you don't listen to scratches, clicks and pops, only if are allowed the audience to eat potato chips during the performance.
Those annoying noises only are present in the anachronistic vinyl, not in the other formats and of course not in real life.
On the other hand the Compact Disc with only 16 bits has four times less information than the original master tapes, vinyl and the 24-bit formats like DVD-Audio and SACD, which incidentally are gone and for something would be.
There is no a CD player, regardless the price, that may include the information that was not originally recorded on those discs. They also have other anomalies such as jitter, which distorts the sound wave producing a less natural sound and they cannot convey the full emotion of music, as in the analog formats. Obviously with such limitations cannot be a real Hi End format.
A true Hi-End format must be a REPLICA of the original analog master tapes that are neither perfect, but AnoiseLog and DiJitter are far away from them.
Maybe this links could be interesting for you:
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
tapeproject.com/
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
www.analogarts.net/
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
hdcd is 24bit
HDCD is a format that comes from 20-bit master tapes, but is reduced to 16 so that can be played on standard CD players. And since I know, the production of those discs was stopping eleven years ago.
so when the it's written on the cd that it is 24bit they are telling lies
I am sorry but I do not understand what you wrote. But if is what I presume, this is the answer:
Some formats with master tapes of 20 or 24 bit like HDCD or XRCD are converted to 16 bits, because is the only way to be reproduced in CD players.
Thank you for your excellent analysis of the various recording and playback mediums and the problems with said mediums .
Thank you for your comment and best regards.
So....care to offer any substitutions or options? Kinda hard to get performers to play in your listening room all the time. Especially the dead ones. Maybe just use MP3 for convenience?
Maybe these sites can help:
tapeproject.com/
I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer:
“Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right.
We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.”
I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site.
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
This is an abstract:
“Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests.
One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl.
What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better.
It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed.
Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity.
Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.
The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.”
More sites about R2R
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
www.horchhouse.com/home-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-2-1
www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/
(Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier or a HQ CD reproducer).
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions:
th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html
I disagree because as equipment gets better jitter is reduced to a point where it is so insignificant that it no longer is an issue, also records are recorded partly mono, ie. The bass, so it is not truly stereo because the stylus would jump the grooves and some of the low notes from instruments are missing, which also you need when listening to a piece of music for a full reproduction of the event.
+John Gordon
To your first comment, I am not comparing vinyl to digital. I am saying as a music lover, that both are not enjoyable for the reasons exposed.
To your second comment: jitter does not have a standard for comparison; “quite reduced “, “insignificant”, “almost eliminated” and things like that are used by manufacturers and nobody knows what exactly is about. Jitter is present in a way that contaminate the sound more or less as more or less the scratches, clicks and pops pollute the vinyl.
I own many vinyl records where the contrabass is for instance in the left channel and the piano on the right and almost all at the bottom of the soundstage. Stereo is present in all instruments regardless the frequency.
Digital's superiority to Analog in a number of sonic parameters: precision, outer detail, speed stability, noise reduction, dynamic range, easy to handle, clean and store and without the necessity of adjustments on the pick-up system.
Unfortunately, it also subtracts those aspects of the sound which are the vital essence of music; ie convey of individuality and emotions. That is why Digital is more intellectually than emotionally satisfying. This is especially true for those who are very familiar with excellent analog sound.
Now, if Digital would be better in all parameters the noisy, impractical and anachronistic Vinyl had disappeared 30 years ago, instead two modern and “superior” 24 bit formats, DVD Audio and SACD are now dead and gone. So, something is wrong in DiJitter formats and of course in AnoiseLog also.
I remember what was said about CD's lack of audible noise. "That silence is not golden".
But nowadays with femtosecond clocks like in the DACs from MSB, jitter is pretty much a thing of the past. It is not noticeable by the human ear I'm pretty sure.
www.msbtech.com/products/femto.php?Page=dacSelect
And now with most USB DACs being Async, it's not that big of an issue.
Thanks for giving to me the site of MSB Technology, because some people wrote here that jitter in these days is not an issue even on cheap commercial players and DACs, since there is no standard specification of this anomaly to make comparisons. “Quite reduced jitter“, “insignificant”, “almost eliminated” and ambiguities like that, are used by manufacturers and no one knows exactly concerned.
MBS emphasizes the importance of jitter reduction using very precisely and expensive quartz clocks and is important also, that jitter has a different value in the low frequency region than in the high frequency region.
Jitter is very complex and MBS confirms that there is not a type of measurement common that all engineers agree.
Anyway, players and DACs can have a great reduction in jitter but as I know, only on the reproduction stage, but cannot reduce jitter that comes already recorded.
The XRCD format has a huge reduction in the mastering process using rubidium clocks which are even much more accurate than the best quartz clocks:
www.elusivedisc.com/xrcd24digprocess.pdf
www.elusivedisc.com/xrcdinfo.asp
A real huge reduction of jitter must be not only in the reproduction stage but also in the mastering process.
Many people say that XRCD at 16 bits sounds better than SACD at 24 bits, because this has not such reduction on jitter in the digital master tapes.
But we can guess that the XRCD digital masters at 24 bits sound better than the XRCD at 16 bits and the original analog master tapes sound even better without any conversion, than that the digital masters.
The true is that digital and vinyl formats are far from the original analog master tapes and far also for a really Hi-Fi or Hi End audio reproduction.
Sei un grande. Nomination best audio/related video !!!
Grazie mille.
Nothing like someone jabbing their finger in your face for four minutes.
I am sorry if that bothers you.
In my country this does not matter and nobody thinks that that is agresive, it is only indicative.
Thanks for your comment.
By this kind of argument, we can also say gourmet food does not exist.
Hi End is a whole made of several parts and if only one part is poor or bad the sound of the whole system is poor or bad.
The poor or bad part is the software - sources of music - not the hardware or equipment:
No one with common sense can say that listening to music with scratches, clicks and pops can be a true HI End Audio reproduction, even with the best equipment in the world.
It is important to note that these noises are only on the vinyl format. It not in the original analog master tapes, not in the other formats and of course not in live performances, so what the term High Fidelity means, is not for the anachronistic vinyl because scratches, clicks and pops are faithful to nothing, unless if the audience is allowed to eat potato chips in concerts.
The Compact Disc with 16 bits has around four times less information than the master tapes, the vinyl and the 24 bits DVD-Audio, SACD and most Hi-Rez files.
There is no a CD player, regardless the price, that can include the information that was not recorded originally. Obviously with such limitation cannot be a true Hi End Audio and it reproduction is less natural and emotive than the analog formats because the complexity of the conversions analog to digital and again to analog.
Take in mind also that the two modern and superior 24 bit formats, DVD Audio and SACD are disappeared and for something would be.
The digital HiRez formats are “analog-like”, their slogan. That automatically confirms the superiority of analog sound which is the reference. But how much “analog-like” are those files? Nobody knows because there is no standard or measure to determine that. More subjective and ambiguous cannot be this “analog-like” term.
Therefore, the current formats are limited, corrupted and away from the original master analog tapes that are far from perfection, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital.
A true Hi End format at least, must be a replica of those masters and so far only the high quality Reel to Reel (R2R) direct copies at 2 track and 15 IPS can be extremely close to them and of course with an authentic 100% pure analog sound.
Because I own some original master tapes and a few back-up copies, I know the huge sound difference between them and any other format.
More information about the “new” R2R format in www.tapeproject.com/
I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer:
“Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right.
We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.”
I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site.
And this is very interesting also:
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
This is an abstract:
“Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests.
One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl.
What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better.
It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed.
Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity.
Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.
The company catalog includes 27 other albums (now are more and coming other titles on the way). Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.”
You can find lot information about the “new” R2R format, probably an authentic gourmet food, on Google.
Thanks for your comment.
@@cinequadom Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. Highly appreciate it.
@@JungPuLin Your welcome.
Have you considered or tried loss-less audio formats. The problem your having with Cd's is the compression and bit rate. With loss-less formats there is minimal if any compression and the bit-rate can go as high as necessary to accurately reproduce the entire audible frequency range and then some. If you can find loss-less audio files taken from the master recording, then, the only limitation is the system and the environment,(room acoustics). You will need a decent computer and a fast and accurate DAC . My philosophy is to put as little equipment as possible between the original recording and my ears, giving less chance for colouration of the music. Therefore I run my DAC straight into class A amplifiers, with decent interconnects, then straight to a set of Martin Logans through a pretty hefty set of bi-amped speaker wires. Not sure of your music tastes but a on good copy of say Diana Krall, off the top of my head, you can literally hear the saliva in her mouth when she moves her lips. It's really like sitting in the studio critiquing the final mix. If it still doesn't sound good it's the engineers fault for mixing wrong and even that can be objective. Hope this helps. I agree with all the flaws you mentioned but i think you may be surprised at how far dijitter audio has come. ;)
A friend of mine will come soon to my home with his high quality lap-top, Hi-Res audio files (some of them that I have in vinyl and reel tape formats to make a comparison) and his last generation digital to analog converter.
Anyway here is more of what I think about the digital sound.
The XRCD format has 16 bit like any CD, but comes from a 24 bit special cared tape that has a remarkable reduction of jitter in every stage of the recording process.
The difference in favor of the XRCD against the CD of the same analog recording is quite notable.
Obviously the 24 bit master tape with four times more information than the XRCD would sound better and the original analog tapes without jitter and other digital artifacts must sound even much better.
Now if you want to translate for instance a book in English to Spanish some things are going to change and if this book in Spanish is translated again by other person to English, there will be a quite different text than the original.
Digital and analog are different languages. The conversion of analog to digital and then to analog again it never will be exact and I think this is the main problem.
Anyway, listening and compare the Hi-Res files with my analog reel tapes and vinyl records, I am sure it will be very interesting.
Thanks for your comment and best regards
well records are not perfect but for me my hi end turntable plays very quiet but not perfect but close enough that 99 percent of the time i hear no background noise even in quiet musical passages but you are basically right in your presentation ty
Thanks for your comment.
If turntable, arm, cartridge that minimizes noise and distortion close to 0, then its hi-end. And you have to pay a lot of money for such thing.
assaf shmueli The cavities, protuberances and record wear that are present in vinyl discs and sound like scratches, clicks, pops and hiss are reproduced better in the best turntables, cartridges and tonearms. None of these devices can reduce to zero those anomalies.
Thanks for your comment.
I said close to zero, not zero.
And its by reducing destortion from device not from the vinyl itself.
assaf shmueli Some of the problems of turntables, cartridges and tonearms are their inaccuracy.
For instance most arms, even very expensive are pivoted, but the recording cutting arm is tangential. Only a few are of that kind, but also introduces other problems; that why most are pivoted.
It is impossible to adjust the height of an arm for all the records because they have different thickness.
Mistracking is also quite common in very expensive moving coil cartridges.
The whole turntable, arm and cartridge has colored sound due the vibrations of those elements with the reproduction of music. Vibrations are impossible to eliminate. Many people note the difference in sound with headphones.
Record wear increases the noise of vinyl discs.
Warped records also distort the sound, and if you add the intrinsic noise of the vinyl format, there is no expensive "Hi End" turntable that can reproduce the sound accurately, without distortion and noise.
"Digital Jitter is a time base error and deforms the audio signal. Instead of a continuous sine wave, is staggered. This defect cannot be heard like a typical audible distortion, but the sound is not natural and without the full emotion of the music." I've been hearing this argument for 30 years and it's never made any sense to me.
+Carew Martin Precisely. If the Compact Disc would be better, 30 years ago the vinyl had disappeared as happened with the audiocassette. However, it continues to grow significantly as you can see only in this store that has more than 7,000 titles: audiophile.elusivedisc.com/search?view=grid&w=vinyl&x=13&y=4
These facts speak by themselves.
But for me, a true Hi-End audio format must have the natural and emotive sound of vinyl, but without its annoying noises.
Thanks for your comment
I would agree that many Recordings are Flawed .Some to the point of being unlistenable. But i have been to so many live Concerts with bad sound that the Controlled enviroment of a Recording studio seems a way better place for musical joy to unfold . Vinyl Can be supremely Quiet, to the point of having a pitch black background. You will never hear this with cheap phono stages and Dirty Vinyl.This is the Point of having a High-end audio System: To bring you Closer to the music.
Hi. I own a special edition VPI/Denon DP-75 Direct Drive High Torque turntable with a Lustre GST-801 tonearm and a special and limited edition Denon 103SA MC cartridge. Also I have a VPI Scout belt driven turntable and a VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine, using enzymatic and other cleaning fluids. My preamplifier is an Audio Research SP9 Mk III with a highly praised phono stage.
I am from the vinyl era with more than 900 albums including some new “audiophile” records.
Only a few old records pressed in Japan and Germany are quite clean, but all the rest has more or less clicks, pops and scratches. This additional annoying and abnormal noise that is not present in the original master tapes is intrinsically into the grooves of vinyl records and because of that, I made this video and say that vinyl is the “Anoiselog” (noisy) format.
With more than 900 records I have excellent studio and live recordings. And I would like to hear them in the original master tapes without the vinyl noise. But that is a very special placer of the sound engineers like Rudy Van Gelder for instance.
Thanks for your comment and best regards.
Alfonso
You can have a perfect source, but if the speakers are poor, so is the music.
+Scott Lowell
Yes of course!
As I said many times, Hi End is made of several parts and if one of them is bad, the whole thing is bad. All is important, including formats.
+Scott Lowell first and most important secret of the high end systems are speakers, and how the wood boxes are made. a nice powerfull amplifier is allways an advantage but as i said the main secret is the speakers. that was my Job for a long time. :)
+Zeeadster TV
For me as I wrote, everything is important but if the source is dirty, the best speakers in the world do not clean it.
Also, if the source loses information, the best speakers of the world do not restore it.
And I can say that I am really glad with my Martin Logan CLS IIz electrostatic speakers and I will not change them for any others.
+Zeeadster TV box??? why use a box. open baffles are the way to approach this. sound travels in all directions from an instrument. not just forward
Theres dbx noise reduction for dbx vynil release played in dbx turntable for it and its noiseless
Except that scratches, clicks and pops are not eliminated with DBX and any other conventional noise reducer.
The best for those annoying noises is the FM 223 that can eliminate pops and clicks and reduce to a considerable level the scratches:
th-cam.com/video/0-AW6lZLcuA/w-d-xo.html
Alfonso Viladoms wow nice
Thank You very much!
OF COURSE high-end audio exists! What is meant by 'high-end' is better quality equipment, so one can achieve better quality sonics. A pair of floorstanding Magneplanar or Martin-Logan speakers are going to sound MUCH better than a pair of inexpensive, cheap bookshelf speakers. Ditto regarding your equipment or source material. I think the most important point one can make though, is that system synergy is important, and often hard to predict, and that a 'point of diminished returns' is reached where no matter what you spend, or what you buy is not going to sound better, because of our hearing limitations!
As I said many times, Hi-End is a whole made of several parts and if only one part is poor or bad the sound of the whole system is poor and/or bad.
Even if you own the best audio system of the world, listen to music with scratches, clicks and pops cannot be a Hi End performance. Considers that those annoying noises are present only in the vinyl format, they are not in the original master tapes and either in live music performances.
Listen to a clean digital source that cannot convey the full emotion of the music as the vinyl and analog open reel tapes, cannot be a real Hi End reproduction either.
You can own a Ferrari but if it is filled with gasoline of bad quality or even contaminated with some portion of water, the car is Hi End but the performance not.
The reel to reel tape with hi quality half track copies at 15 ips that comes from the original analog master tapes is the only format that until today can deserve the name of Hi End Audio.
Maybe these sites would be interesting for you:
tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with Why Tape?
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
www.analogarts.net/
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820
th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html
According to your philosophy in this movie,
fridge noise coming from the kitchen means High end does not exist.
Jitter is below the noise floor, cannot be heard, there for does not exist (in practice),
The fridge in the kitchen, traffic outside birds dogs etc, air conditioner noise , toilet flushing
all noises much more intrusive than jitter or aliasing, and those do exist.
I do not understand what do you mean.
Vinyl has scratches, clicks and pops. Digital do not, but cannot convey the full emotion of the music.
I do not listen to my discs in the kitchen.
Sir, in your movie you complained about jitter noise in digital,
( you should also mention digital aliasing noise...)
and yet I am saying that there is much more noise coming from other parts of the house or the outside, that are far worse.
I have Otari R2R analog, and I assure you %100 that converting analog tape and LP's to digital
keeps absolutely ALL information at 24\96 and even things you do not need at 24\192,
even tape bias oscillator used during recording at 50Khz-70Khz is perfectly visible in the digital capture,
LP-Turntable motor noise is captured in the digital waveform, but rarely heard just as it is not heard
when connected to amplifier.
someone walking near the turntable is seen in the digital captured waveform,
If digital capturing FM stereo, the 19Khz multiplex signal is seen in the digital waveform.
some old European LP's that where cut 50 years ago
contain mains 50hz hum, this is not always heard by ear
but the digital capture shows it and fully captures everything.
Digital has reached a point where it is so perfect it retains all information from the source.
Even a $100 computer card vs expensive studio gear
is better than any analog recording device,
with a noise floor below most power amplifiers and listening rooms.
Digital is so sensitive, that faint sources of noise into digital are like what the connecting cables pick up from electromagnetic radiation , and the single analog stage usually an opamp that comes before the converter,
you cannot record such faint signals using tape, digital far better than tape.
tape noise and LP noise much higher than the cables noise obviously,
and jitter noise is lower than than that of the cable input noise.
so practically it does not exist, it exist psychologically perhaps that is the problem ....
If I have to complain about something, it is the terrible way recordings are mixed,
and the missus of dynamic compressors.
engineers are attempted to press buttons just because they can...
so Conveying emotion is a state of mind, has nothing todo with fidelity or
technology,
If you listen again to what I say in my video, my complaint is about the AUDIBLE annoying noises of vinyl.
What I am saying also, is that the sound of DiJitter formats is CLEAN but artificial because they have time base errors and as I know, does not have an audible noise.
I hope you have the Otari MX-5050. In that case I think it would be interesting for you these links:
tapeproject.com/
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
www.analogarts.net/
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
I own a R2R Technics 1506 and several original master tapes and some back-up copies and believe me, nothing like that.
I love R2R,
I was threading tape since I was 5 years old,
first technology I ever had.
for decades I hoped for a better format,
it came in the form of Digital.
Time based errors in Analog are terrible,
in LP in the form called WOW where the record hole is not %100 centered,
and how do you know that the original cutting machine speed was accurate?
and that the source to cut the LP was accurate?
so you have time base error already engraved forever in the Vinyl before you play it.
If I must use a turntable, I prefer Direct drive, because belt is not uniform, every turn
the speed might varies a little bit.
In R2R, and cassettes there are time based errors worse than in LP, called flutter,
These time based fluctuations are easily seen when capturing to digital and viewing them on a computer.
Pinch roller is never perfect,
tape tension and length slightly change over the years.
recording fades over the years, even for master tapes.
unlike wow and flutter jitter is high frequency, worst case scenario is it is -90db below the music
in the form of noise, not time.
tape and LP motor speeds can be different to the speed of the original,
what is acceptable difference? 1%? 3%?
I will tell you a little dark secret, most analog LP's today are cut directly
from 24\96 or 24\192 digital files.
and sometimes new originals are only 24\48.
about Jitter
ethanwiner.com/audibility.html
cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs-wm/39369.pdf
Jitter is an imaginary problem,
aliasing might become a noticeable problem during digital processing in the studio
if too many generations are incorrectly used (usually in software)..
BTW I would love to have a Technics 1506, I cannot justify the price.
As I know there are not time base errors in analog sound. Analog jitter in the past was called wow and flutter, as you wrote, and are small speed variations or fluctuations of turntables, R2R and cassette decks motors. (I think that jitter and fluctuation are synonymous, that is why now jitter is used instead wow and flutter) These motor speed fluctuations are measured in percentage. My DD turntable for instance, has less than 0.015% a really very low figure.
Digital jitter is a complete different thing and does not affect the speed in any way. It is caused by time base errors. This is that the “zeros and ones” are not of the same length, some are longer and others are shorter in different time lengths. These deform the audio sine wave in a way that it not has a continuous trace and causes an artificial sound compared with analog.
These links shows better and graphically what I am trying to explain:
www.apogeedigital.com/knowledgebase/fundamentals-of-digital-audio/what-is-jitter/
www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diginterf1_e.html
www.stereophile.com/reference/1093jitter/index.html#75s2oqjGh3CWvllF.97
www.by-rutgers.nl/PDFiles/Audio%20Jitter.pdf
www.sitime.com/support2/documents/AN10007-Jitter-and-measurement.pdf
audiophilleo.com/definitions.aspx?jitter
Digital jitter is very complex and quite difficult to measure and there is not a standard specification.
You will never going to find in the specifications of DACs or digital players: 0.1% or 0.02%, of jitter for instance. You will see terms like these: “very low jitter, quite reduced, insignificant, almost eliminated, etc.”
What you say about the speed fluctuations in analog sound as I know less than 0.1% are not perceived for most people. Musicians are more susceptible to notice these tiny pitch oscillations.
I know that most analog LP's today are cut directly from digital sources, even from CD’s. I found this when I bought new vinyl records of my favorite titles with scratches, clicks and pops and the sound of the renewed is more alike at the CD version than the original analog disc. Then in a Blue Note modern vinyl there is a text saying that the record comes from the original digital master tapes, I think from those re-mastered by Rudy Van Gelder.
The XRCD’s that comes from the original master tapes, sound more analog that those false LP’s which have the worst of both worlds: digital sound with scratches clicks and pops.
Anyway, what you exposed in general terms confirms that Hi End Audio does not exist.
If I fall a sleep please wake me up lol
+jonas Dogue de Bordeaux
Please recommend it to those who suffer from insomnia.
the source of music is the very instruments that produced it not the vinyl record. high end audio is designed to re-produce this as faithfully as possible be it analogue or digital
+janine fawcett If you listen to the original master tapes is true what you are saying but the annoying scratches, clicks and pops are only in the vinyl format and do not represent fidelity of nothing.
Among other flaws, the Compact Disc has four times less information than the original analog master tapes, so it is not fully faithful to those recordings.
Hi-End does not exist if vinyl and digital formats are limited and contaminated. Only a replica of those master tapes deserve that name.
Maybe this site would be interesting for you: tapeproject.com/
But what's Hi End? if Hi End is the "best known way to reproduce the sound"
the Hi End exist even the errors and reproduction mistakes, so far from the perfection
but like some of the best that we can get, we can believe that really the so called
Hi End exists.
I am not seeking for a “perfect or pure sound”, since that is impossible in audio. The point is about the current formats that are not true Hi-Fi.
Hi-End Audio is a WHOLE made of several parts and if only one part is poor or bad the sound of the WHOLE system is poor or bad.
The poor or bad part is the software - sources of music - not the hardware or equipment..
No one with common sense can say that listening to music with scratches, clicks and pops can be a true HI End Audio reproduction, even with the best equipment in the world.
It is important to note that these noises are only on the vinyl format. It not in the original analog master tapes, not in the other formats and of course not in live performances, so what the term High Fidelity means, is not for the anachronistic vinyl because scratches, clicks and pops are faithful to nothing, unless if the audience was allowed to eat potato chips in concerts.
The Compact Disc with 16 bits has around four times less information than the master tapes, the vinyl and the 24 bits SACD, DVD-Audio and most HiRez files. There is no a CD player, regardless the price, that can include the information that was not recorded originally. Obviously with such limitation cannot be a true Hi End Audio and it reproduction is less natural and emotive than the analog formats.
Also the two superior 24 bit DVD Audio and SACD are disappeared and for something would be.
The digital HiRez formats are “analog-like”, their slogan. That automatically confirms the superiority of analog sound which is the reference. But how much “analog-like” are those files? Nobody knows because there is no standard or measure to determine that. More subjective and ambiguous cannot be this “analog-like” term.
Therefore, the current formats are limited, corrupted and away from the original analog master tapes that are far from perfection, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital.
A true Hi End format at least, must be a replica of those masters and so far only the high quality Reel to Reel (R2R) direct copies at 2 track and 15 IPS can be extremely close to them and of course with an authentic 100% pure analog sound.
Because I own some original master tapes and a few back-up copies, I know the huge sound difference between them and any other format.
More information about the “new” R2R format in tapeproject.com/
I recommend starting with “Why Tape?”
These are two paragraphs of the first answer:
“Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right.
We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.”
I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site.
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
This is an abstract:
“Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests.
One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl.
What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better.
It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed.
Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, surface noise, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity.
The Tape Project, which peddles legacy albums ranging from Sonny Rollins’ Saxophone Colossus to The London Philharmonic’s Arnold Overtures. The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.
Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.”
You can search in Google more information about this “new” format, the only until now that can deserve the name of Hi End Audio.
This time I don't have enough time, so I must to use the Google tranlator:
Mr. Alfonoso Viladoms if I misinterpreted him thinking he was looking for something quasi-perfect, please excuse me; but the other thing I said is simply a matter of logic, my attempt at definition:
"" The most advanced and faithful form for the time to reproduce the sounds, read electronically-acoustically .... "" It is going to be that the Hi End sound as such if it exists, if we can not access it is something else.
The master tapes of which you speak would be an example of Hi End sound, to which the players, amps and speakers should be added at the same height.
The other is a matter of "devaluation of the terms" High Fidelity since it was used as an advertising phrase for teams that were not already sticks, Hi End is the new term that as no, in many cases will be something false, but still in the cases when it is true I DO NOT DISCUSS THE OVERPRICE. A pair of studio monitors rated as Hi End usually cost more than $ 2,300 a pair and up there!
Worry that those who have so much money enjoy music or not for me is something banal ... there will be some yes, others not ... but it's not my problem.
Yes, there are teams that are pure price, that is: luxury, but not that they are as much as their manufacturers boast.
Thanks for take your time in typing...the article quoted by you I already read it, and......other time the price is too high! the best Hi End is over our budgets.
I answered also in the Spanish version of this video.
You can see in the description of my equipment that it is a real Hi End Audio system, but not very expensive. Anyway, the price of my beloved Martin Logan CLSz pure electrostatic panels was 4K dls. in 1994, including customs taxes and shipping to my country and which are the most expensive pieces of my audio system.
I am sure that the sound of it is better than many Hi End systems costing a lot more.
I heard many expensive systems at the CES of 1994 when I bought my electrostatics, and for instance the the Wilson Watt/Puppy speakers at US$35,000.00 does not sound as transparent and natural like my Martin Logans.
Greetings.
What about tape? Studio's record(ed) on tape.
He likes tape. But no one listens to studio tape. And no one is selling it.
So be it. The digital formats are flawed, but they're good enough.
Audiophiles are so thoroughly full of shit and this is the problem. No one takes them seriously anymore, because while their theories are well founded they fail time and time again in double blind tests.
Is studio tape the best. Probably. But I'm guessing you could play an SACD and studio tape and you'd fool them more often than not.
Human ears aren't very accurate in what we hear. Our own psyche literally fills in the gaps and convinces us we hear things that aren't there. That's why CD's are just fine.
Please see these sites about studio tapes:
tapeproject.com/
I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer:
“Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right.
We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.”
I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site.
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
This is an abstract:
“Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests.
One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl.
What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better.
It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed.
Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity.
Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.
The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.”
More sites about R2R
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
www.horchhouse.com/home-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-2-1
www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/
(Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier or a HQ CD reproducer).
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions:
th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html
Despite digital jitter and analog noise most people could still perceive the music therein. And our brain is pretty impressive in filtering out both jitter and noise in our perception in order to enjoy the music. I listen to both CD and vinyl plus anything in between mp3, aac, flac, so on. In case I don't have the music in my preferred format I could still enjoy the music. Its how the brain adapts. Similar thing happens in entertainment. Watch a horror movie at cinema or on laptop computer it still delivers the horror although in varying degree. Its how the brain adapts. Remember when we were young we mostly cared less where the music came from be it from radio, tv, hifi or live band. Its because younger brain adapts easily, forgives most imperfection and just focus to the music. Stop listening to music for few weeks or months until your body aches to listen to your favourite song. Too much of a good thing is not good for the body. When you start to listen again I think you won't care much what format it came from.
+Amir S Thanks for your comments.
High End Audio does exist. I was at the Hi End in Munich just last week and it was Very Hi End indeed. I agree that Hi Fidelity does not exist. Vinyl is closest due to it's analog nature and music instruments and voice make analog waves. But vinyl has a high noise floor and this make CD or digital formats shine. The only real Hi Fi is a live performance.
ANoiseLog Vinyl and DiJitter are far from the original analog master tapes.
A format as a replica of those tapes, is not as a live performance but very much better indeed and truly Hi End.
Maybe in Munich you listened to the sound of high quality Reel to Reel tapes.
Here is some information about:
tapeproject.com/
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
www.analogarts.net/
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
Analog Master Tapes used by many recording studio's in the past, still have a higher noise floor than CD's and other digital formats that have 0 noise floor. Heard an awesome of Reel to Reel and Vinyl records played on some very expensive equipment. I have all three formats and enjoy them all. Still they are all illusions of the real thing; some better than others.
I own a Technics RS 1506 almost professional Reel to Reel tape deck.
Commercial ¼ pre recorded tapes at 7.5 IPS without Dolby B noise reduction system has audible hiss, but those half track at 15 IPS even without Dolby not.
In The Tape Project site I recommend to read “Why Tape?” which has detailed information about that.
I am a Jazz fan and thanks to recorded music; I can listen to John Coltrane, Lee Morgan, Horace Silver, Dave Brubeck and many, many other Jazz giants that otherwise was impossible to me and most people to hear to them alive and as well as all the other great musicians of classical music, pop, rock, etc. and even we can hear their recordings as many times as we want, which is impossible in live performances.
Also many of them have electronic amplification, many times bad equalization and if you do no sit in a good place, the listening is not too good also.
Sit on front of your good audio system alone, could be better than many live performances.
A demanding audiophile as me, the current formats do not qualify for Hi End, except the Reel to Reel high quality half track direct copies at 15 IPS.
A true Hi End format at least, must be a replica the original analog master analog tapes that are not perfect either, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital that are far from them. So, only the “new” high quality Reel to Reel (R2R) direct copies at 2 track and 15 IPS can be extremely close to them.
More information about the “new” R2R format in tapeproject.com/
I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer:
“Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right.
We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.”
I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site.
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
This is an abstract:
“Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests.
One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl.
What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better.
It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed.
Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity.
The Tape Project, which peddles legacy albums ranging from Sonny Rollins’ Saxophone Colossus to The London Philharmonic’s Arnold Overtures. The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.
Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.”
More sites about R2R
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
horchhouse.com/project-r2r/
www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/
(Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier or a HQ CD reproducer).
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions:
th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html
Unfortunately right now the tapes are very expensive with a few titles and I hope that this reborn and improved format grow enough to down the prices.
So, Hi End or H Fi exists only with this high quality R2R format, with the others not.
I agree, I love vinyl but R2R blows it away.
What about open reel?
Until today the best audio format, especially the “new” R2R with high quality copies that come from the original analog master tapes:
tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?”
And
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
www.analogarts.net/
horchhouse.com/project-r2r/
www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions:
th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html
Great! And what do you think about LAST record preservative? does it really help to avoid scrath?
I never tried because I read somewhere that the liquid changes somehow the inner structure of the groove and the records lose some high frequencies. For that reason vinyl discs sound with less scratches and there is no return to the original state.
I think you have to research about this in Google.
There might not be speed variations in nature, but there sure as hell are in analogue tape and vinyl records - here it's just called wow and flutter, and the amounts of wow and flutter are much, much greater than jitter in any digital audio (unless very faulty).
Have you ever heard jitter? The reason I ask is that everybody's talking about jitter but nobody seems to know how it sounds. And I do mean nobody, because all the people who talk about jitter as being a problem have clearly never heard jitter, because their description of how it sounds is completely off. Until six months ago I had never heard jitter either, but I had been told that it smeared the stereo image and created a grating, unpleasant sound, and it was ALWAYS audible. It It's simply all incorrect. It IS however correct that all converters produce jitter, but none of them produce jitter in audible levels, UNLESS you use extremely faulty equipment. Even a $50 CD player from a warehouse won't produce audible jitter. So when a magazine like Stereophile tells a story about how they sent a CD player back and it had the clock replaced with another clock with lower jitter amounts, and they hear a great audible improvement, it's simply placebo, unless the manufacturer changed something else.
First of all, you can hear jitter here (you might have to write down the links, as they might not be clickable): hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,107570.msg905631.html#msg905631 (the sound clips are attached just below the post). Clearly, jitter doesn't sound like how the jitter-phobic audiophiles say. It sounds like an old worn cassette tape! Secondly, you can read the following great scientific report which concludes that the threshold for audibility of jitter is more than 250 nanoseconds. The test subjects were all audiophiles who used their own equipment, and the engineers also measured jitter levels in their equipment, and the highest level they found was 3 nanoseconds. Again, the threshold for audibility was more than 250 nanoseconds - around 100 times higher. Many converters only produce 0,5 nanoseconds of jitter. It's also worth noting that there hasn't a single reliable report in 30 years that concluded jitter was audible in the amounts found in converters today. The reports that state that it is audible, were all faulty somehow (e.g. not based on listening tests, and when they were asked for listening tests, they failed these tests) www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/26/1/26_1_50/_pdf
Then, there's vinyl. I've collected records for more than 15 years, and I still buy records. Now I've compared more than 700 albums and singles on vinyl and CD. I have heard many CDs that sound cold, hard, shrill, thin and clinical, where the vinyl edition was much better - more pleasant, more lively, more "right". However, most of these CDs were from the 80s or early 90s, where A/D converters were poor and mastering wasn't done quite right, or they were mastered in Japan, where they enjoy this overly trebly sound. Or they were reissues of old albums (and often old tapes deteriorate and have to be baked - just ask Steve Hoffmann). There were of course exceptions to these general trends. Please also remember that some vinyl albums are not cut flat from the source, and therefore sound different ("better"), while others are cut flat from the source, even from a 16/44.1 source, but the vinyl material colours the sound, which to some people is "better". The fact of the matter is that if you take any analogue (or digital) master tape and make a properly converted CD of it, it is audibly indistinguishable from the original - and show me any properly conducted blind test that proves otherwise. But not everybody likes how the master tapes actually sound. But saying "digital can't convey the emotion of music" is simply very, very subjective. Some albums I would never buy on CD, but because a certain percentage of albums sound better on vinyl doesn't mean that the entire vinyl medium as a whole is superior - quite the opposite, every SINGLE technical argument supports that digital is better. Of course, some vinyl albums are audibly indistinguishable from the master tape, but these are the exceptions - not the rule. With CDs, the rule is that the CD is indistinguishable from the master, and the exception is that the CD sounds different than the master. But many audiophiles don't really like "transparency" or "neutrality" - they want a coloured sound that sounds "nice". Me too. That's why I chose for instance an amplifier from Naim. I don't think it's neutral, but it makes music "fun". And I have several albums where the CD is "better" - more clean, better treble, less messy, etc., but nevertheless I prefer the vinyl edition, because the imperfections makes it "fun" somehow. So, in some cases lower fidelity is actually "preferable" - "better" for a lack of a better word.
+mcnyregrus
Thanks for your very well exposed comments that I agree in most of them, but let me tell you more of what I think and my experience about jitter.
First it is not funny to me to hear scratches, pops and clicks with music. That really bothers me, especially because those annoying noises are exclusively of the vinyl format and are not in the original master tapes and in the other formats either.
Digital's superiority to Analog in a number of sonic parameters are precision, outer detail, speed stability, dynamic range, channel separation, up to 74 minutes of continuous music, no noise, no record wear, no harm of the laser to the disc, no coloration by acoustic reflections and vibrations, easy to handle, play, clean and store; and without the necessity of adjustments on the pick-up system.
Unfortunately, it also subtracts those aspects of the sound which are the vital essence of music; ie convey of individuality and emotions. That is why Digital is more intellectually than emotionally satisfying. This is especially true for those who are very familiar with excellent analog sound.
I know that you do not agree with this but if digital audio would be better in ALL parameters the noisy, impractical and anachronistic vinyl had disappeared 30 years ago, but not only is alive, but also two modern and “superior” 24 bit formats, DVD Audio and SACD are now dead and gone. So, something is wrong with digital audio.
One thing I learned is that reduction of jitter is very important.
I own several XRCDs that play in any CD reproducer.
Their sound is similar but not equal to the vinyl and much better than any conventional CD and any one can hear that difference. This is because jitter is reduced at the maximum in every step of the process to make the digital master tape.
www.elusivedisc.com/xrcdinfo.asp
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Resolution_Compact_Disc
www.elusivedisc.com/xrcd24digprocess.pdf
Some people say that these 16 bits digital discs are even better than SACD at 24, which has not such jitter reduction in the mastering process.
But XRCD compared with the same titles in vinyl, the sound of this to me is more “alive”.
Maybe is subjective, but for someone who does not like the annoying noises of vinyl, is hard to admit that vinyl sounds better than XRCD.
I own several original analog master tapes and a few back-up copies at 2 tracks and 15 ips and believe me; the sound is hugely superior to any current formats.
Maybe would be interesting for you this link: tapeproject.com/
I recommend to start with: Why tape?
Thanks again for your comments that increase my knowledge of digital audio and confirms what I think about the subjectivity of the listening to recorded music. My best regards.
+Alfonso Viladoms I'm just curious now: Did you delete my response to your comment above? I remember seeing my comment posted the next day, but now it's gone. It wasn't meant to be harsh or abusive or anything. After all, you have been one of the easiest people to debate these issues with :-).
+mcnyregrus I remember that and when I was going to answer, it disappeared. I thought that you decided to delete it. I do not know what happened, therefore, you can write it again.
Because English is not my language, I cannot respond quickly. I need more time and help from Google Translator. Thanks and best regards.
I don't remember what I wrote, and I had actually promised myself never to debate these issues again, as it exhausts me (my comments here would be my last), so I think I will stop here.
However, I do have one last question which is: Have you ever done a properly conducted blind test (volume levels matched) between your analogue master tapes and a properly converted digital copy? I ask because you keep insisting that the analogue tapes are audibly far better than a digital copy. I haven't read everything there is to read, but so far I have not seen a single study that supported that claim. We all have our preferences, and I have no problem with that. I also enjoy certain expensive things where I might not be able to tell the difference to a cheaper variant in a blind test. It's just a preference than makes me feel good.
And about your claim that CDs only contain 25 % of the master, where do you get that number from? The basis for all digital audio is the Nyquist sampling theorem, which was proven already in 1928, and it says that as long as the sampling frequency is more than twice that of the bandwidth, the digital file will contain ALL the information and detail with NO loss and NO distortion. And of course, the bandwidth is limited. On CDs it goes to 22 kHz, on 96 kHz downloads it goes to 48 kHz. But analogue lovers seem to misunderstand the capabilities of analogue tapes a lot: Some of the finest analogue tapes (Studer 810) are only spec'ed to go to 20 kHz +/- 2 dB. They don't go to infinity as some people seem to think. So, a CD will contain all the information of an analogue master tape that only goes to 20 kHz. I hope this doesn't sound harsh, but that's not up for debate - it's simply a fact :-).
As for conversion, then early A/D converters from the 80s are reported to sound harsh, clinical or industrial, and almost all CDs I have heard from the 80s (and some from the early 90s) are worse than the vinyl editions. Nowadays, even moderatly priced A/D and D/A converters are audibly transparent. I have a Naim CD 5X CD player, originally priced at around £1.500, and to me it's audibly indistinguishable from my Marantz DVD-6500 DVD/SACD player. This only cost around £350 when new. I think many expensive converters simply employ a bit of EQ to either sound more "relaxed" (lowering of the treble) or more "exciting" (boosting the treble). So, conversion is of course not completely trouble-free, but when you consider everything that can and often will go wrong in analogue formats, even with expensive equipment, and you consider how little actually goes wrong with digital formats, then digital is easily technically superior - although I might happen to like a certain analogue recording due to its shortcomings (euphonic and harmonic distortion, wow/flutter, etc.) better than a digital one.
I understand the difficulty of discussing these issues, because now I have to respond to two other people, but it's my video and I have that responsibility.
About D/A converters:
My modest US$700.00 MHZS CD player has exactly the same CS4398 DAC chip-set as the first most expensive model of Esoteric Audio at US$100,000.00
The new Esoteric gear has several different Asahi Kasei DAC at 32 bit and Teac (mother of Esoteric) has a few DACs with these “velvet sound” devices:
www.teac.com/product/nt-503/
Yes, I can say that new D/A converters are better than others from the past.
About CD/SACD:
I read somewhere several years ago, when manufacturers were promoting SACD, that this format has four times more information than the CD.
Because I do not have that information now, I think that the technical characteristics between both formats could be enough to see why SACD has much more information than CD.
I found this on Wikipedia: CD capacity is up to 700 MB and for SACD is up to 4.7 GB SACD. Well, this is almost seven times more information than the CD. SACD probably is not compressed and perhaps additional factors that give a result of four times more information.
More about is on: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CD
About blind tests:
I do not believe in blind tests, because there is a lot of subjectivity in listening to sound systems and is very easy to misdiagnosis in these tests.
For instance: Amplifier A vs. B: 89% of listeners say that A is better, 5% do not know what is best and the rest 6% say that B is better. We may think that A is the winner, but because it has stronger bass and amplifier B not, but it has a balanced frequency response. Most people like stronger bass, but 6% found that the real winner is B. This is just one example.
Another thing is that just being on front the speakers and in the middle between them at certain distance, is possible to appreciate the stereo image, soundstage, air, etc. Real stereo listening is possible if only a single person is in that situation, not in an auditorium with people that are seating on many different places.
As an audiophile I learned with the years, to perceive differences between different components. Is important to do this with my own equipment and with a source with music that I like very much and I know pretty well.
Differences between cartridges are complicated, because some records can go very well with one cartridge and other discs with another. That is why some turntables have the possibility to install up to three arms.
About this, I really found a noticeable better sound when I listened to MC cartridges against the others in all my records.
Because I build my own cables, I make comparisons between them. I can find differences in favor of one over others.
On one occasion, after listening for some time a winner pair of cables, something I do not like at all and return to the previous. This can show how subjective it may be listening.
Several types of cables can have very slight differences in bass, middle frequencies, treble, timbre, soundstage, etc. Trying to know which is the better, I discovered that some cables convey the emotion of music and others not. I think it is very difficult to other people to perceive things like this at first hearing.
What I can say about the sound of high quality open reel tapes on my equipment is that everything is better in general terms, but more important is that I feel that the music has life. It is not the illusion to be in a live performance, it is something different.
If you are in a live concert, you do not feel that the musicians are alive, or anyone on front of you and this is because you know that.
When I was young I went to a museum that had a temporary exhibition of paints of Picasso, Velazquez, Dali and others that came from other museum in France.
I remember especially the work of a Russian painter. The paint shows a farmer as tall as me and I felt that this man on the fabric, had life. Really it was very impressive that feeling.
I read than most people feel something like that with the sculpture the “Pietá” of Michelangelo in the basilica of Saint Peter.
Listening to my tapes the music has life itself and is what I feel.
I own a Sony RCD-1 CD recorder and after your post, I made a transfer of one of my tapes to a CD-R and that feeling was gone, also the sound is less natural.
I want to post some paragraphs of the sites with information of high quality R2R format.
Maybe this can help:
“Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests.
One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl.”
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
"Audio tape is the only format that can record and play back pure, natural sound in its whole and original state," Horch House says. "Every other format requires some form of interference with the original audio signal. Audio tape is therefore the only format which allows the listener to hear a recording exactly the way the original artist and producer intended it to sound, before it was altered to fit on a vinyl record, sampled for a CD or squashed down to MP3 size."
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
I think that simple is better and in audio, as less steps are in the chain much better.
Also I like very much this definition: “There are some audiophiles that listen to music through their equipments and others, the most that listen to their equipments through the music”
Now I have a question for you: When you listen to your stereo with digital audio, the music really makes that you to forget the sound of your equipment?
I used to agree with you regarding CDs. A couple friends have very high-end digital source components (Chord and Mark Levinson). And for the longest time, they lacked that emotional engagement and nuance you speak of. But after they did some rather expensive tweaks and upgrades, my impression of digital has changed. It really can sound as emotionally engaging as live music. Of course, all the components downstream have to be commensurate with the source components.
These are the upgrades that took the sound to a place that I’m sure would astound even you: (1) High Fidelity CT-IE analog and digital interconnects (2) HiDiamond 4 power cord on the transport (3) Mojo Enigma SE power cord with Furutech FI-50 plugs on the DAC (4) Marigo Audio Lab Ultima Signature CD Mat (5) Bedini Hex-Beam Clarifier (6) Symposium Rollerblock Series 2+ above and below the Superballs underneath the transport (7) Svelte Shelf below the Rollerblocks (8) Mapleshade Isoblocks below the Svelte (9) Mapleshade Micropoint Megafeet below the DAC (10) 4” thick Mapleshade platform with Isoblocks below the Megafeet (11) Sound Application power conditioner (12) Furutech GTX-D Rhodium wall outlet with carbon fiber receptacle cover (13) Densen DeMagic CD.
Most audiophiles have never heard a stereo in which the entire system (components, cables, clean electricity, tweaks, isolation platforms, and room acoustics) have been optimized, in which case it's very easy to reach the same conclusions that you've had.
+LorenzoNW
Hi Lorenzo,
Thank you very much for your advices but as you mentioned most of these things are quite expensive and for now out of my budget. Anyway I will give this list of components to some of my rich friends. I hope they can buy all these things and that is a way for me to listen to these improvements. My best regards.
+Alfonso Viladoms The best part is that you can audition them all for free. And most (if not all) the products mentioned have a money back satisfaction guarantee. I would suggest your friends try one upgrade at a time so there’s only the one variable. Almost forgot, replacing the fuses with Synergistic Research Red fuses led to an improvement too.
The next step they can take following the upgrades I already mentioned is to improve room acoustics (if they haven’t done so already). Much to my surprise, these little HFT high frequency transducers in conjunction with the FEQ Frequency Equalizer by Synergistic Research really improves the sound. In my friend’s case, there wasn’t a noticeable difference when he placed the HFTs on his speakers but on the walls, they cleaned up a lot of distortion.
+LorenzoNW
Hello Lorenzo,
I live in Mexico and any purchases made outside my country pays customs duties. So there is no way to return those components.
Anyway, some of my friends often go to US and they will be very happy to try to improve their audio systems with things you recommended
Thanks again and regards.
+Alfonso Viladoms I forgot to mention, the heart of both their systems is a First Sound Paramount Mk III Special Edition preamp. One of them recently upgraded his with high-end Duelund capacitors. Fortunately, the owner of the company lives nearby, making upgrades easy. I listened to it last night after 200 hours of break-in and almost cried. Believe it or not, it was more emotionally engaging than live music! Very few audiophiles have heard systems at that level. If your wealthy friends want the best, I suggest they look into getting a First Sound.
Keep in mind that in order to reproduce music like that, EVERYTHING matters. For instance, when my friend didn’t use his Marigo CD mat, some of the magic was gone. And when he turned off his Synergistic Research FEQ, some of the dimensionality collapsed.
+LorenzoNW
OK Lorenzo, I got everything.
Thanks and regards
So, your idea of high end audio is fumbling around with winding master tapes costing an average of 500 dollars a pop on a reel 2 reel machine --GOT IT!
It's funny, but I've heard records without pops, clicks and scratches. They left me with goose bumps. I've also heard classic music played through cheap single driver speakers that was very pleasant.
Congratulations!
Jitter was pretty much a thing of the past many years before this video was posted. Reading an old CD from an old drive where the error correction can't keep up is one thing. However, most "audiophiles" are listening to lossless audio with a modern DAC. There is no jitter in that scenario. If anything, it's 100db or more below the music at 24-bit, anyway.
I think I'll keep taking advice from sound engineers like Alan Parsons, who know what they're talking about because they do it for a living.
And yes, I'd rather create the warmth of vinyl with a tube or even digitally, rather than listen to pops and scratches.
This explains it better than I did. Even at 16-bit, you can not detect any of this.
www.head-fi.org/t/415361/24bit-vs-16bit-the-myth-exploded
I do not think that jitter is thing of the past.
Jitter is an anomaly caused by time base errors and as I know is not relative to quantization which is another issue of the digital sound.
Jitter cannot be eliminated and even measured accurately, so there are no parameters of comparison.
For instance, you will not find DAC specifications of jitter at 5%, 3% or 1%. So manufacturers talk about minimal or imperceptible jitter which is a subjective indication.
Yes, jitter can be reduced in “good” DACs with complex circuits with Quartz and even expensive Rubidium clocks that make some amount of correction of the time base errors caused by that anomaly, but only in the reproduction way because is not possible to do that in the jitter that comes already from the digital master tapes. I discovered this with the XRCD format that reduces jitter considerably in the mastering process and the sound is much more natural:
www.elusivedisc.com/xrcdinfo.asp
www.elusivedisc.com/xrcd24digprocess.pdf
About the article of Gregorio about quantization and that there is no audible difference between 16 an 24 bits, I am sure that many people including audio engineers do not agree with this.
I cannot say anything about, because I do not have a SACD player to make comparisons.
I have discovered that the analog sound is more natural than warm.
I don't think you really understand what jitter is. it's timing based errors Google it
Exactly, jitter is not a kind of noise, it is a time base error.
Chord mojo helps a lot. It's all about timing and it does it very well.
MUCHOS SALUDOS Y RESPETOS.MI NOMBRE ES YBER LAGUNA ,SOY UNA PERSONA DISCAPACITADA HACE UN AÑO,(ORTOGRAFIA MALA) PERO SOY AMANTE DE SONIDO Y DE LA MUSICA CON BUEN SONIDO..DESEARIA SI PUDIERA DAR O TENER CURSOS DE SU PERSONA EN LA PARTE DE PROBLEMAS EN EN LOS QUE EL SONIDO PUEDE TENER PEBLEMAS DE CANBIOS DE FORMA Y ESCUCHA....GRACIAS..
Hola Yber. Perdona la respuesta tardía pero no la he podido escribir antes.
No entiendo bien tu pregunta, pero te comento que a mí personalmente me lastima el sonido del Compact Disc a intensidades moderadamente altas (unos 80 decibeles), causándome inflamación en los oídos, zumbido o Tinnitus al igual que sucede con sonidos muy altos analógicos de 120 decibeles o más, muy comunes en los conciertos de Rock.
No soy el único y esto afecta a otras muchas personas, sobre todo a quienes utilizan audífonos escuchando el formato digital MP3 ó MP4. Esto parece ser debido a ese fenómeno llamado “jitter”.
Pero además amplíame con más detalle tu pregunta, para saber cuáles son los problemas que mencionas.
Recibe un cordial saludo,
Alfonso
No one wants to wear an analog master when mass producing copies. This means it was stored and played for recording from a digital source.
You're mistaking 'hi-end' with 'perfection'. What does not exist is perfection, because vinyl, digital and audio tapes are all compromised in their own specific ways. Hi-end exists, it means 'state of the art'. However I admit I'm one of the majority who feels he can live with the compromises of digital audio far easier than I can live with the compromises of vinyl records and analogue tapes.
I never used the word perfection because I am not seeking for a “perfect sound”, since that is impossible.
No one with common sense can say that listening to music with scratches, clicks and pops can be a true HI End audio reproduction, even with the best equipment in the world.
It is important to note that these noises are only on the vinyl format. It not in the original analog master tapes that are not perfect either, not in the other formats and of course not in live performances, so what the term High Fidelity means, is not for the anachronistic vinyl because scratches, clicks and pops are faithful to nothing.
The Compact Disc has four times less information than the master tapes, the vinyl and the 24 bits SACD and DVD-Audio. There is no a CD player, regardless the price, that can include the information that was not recorded originally. Obviously with such limitation, cannot be a true Hi End format.
Now DVD-Audio and SACD are dead and gone and for something will be.
The new digital high resolution formats are “analog-like”. That automatically confirms the superiority of analog sound which is the reference. But how much “analog-like” are those files? Nobody knows because there is no standard or measure to determine that. More subjective and ambiguous cannot be this “analog-like” term.
So, current formats are limited and corrupt and far from the original master tapes that are far from perfection but indisputably superior to vinyl and digital.
A true Hi End format must be a replica of those masters and so far only the high quality reel to reel tapes can be like them in practical terms or if you prefer in technical terms, extremely close to them and of course with an authentic 100% pure analog sound.
Because I own some original master tapes and a few back-up copies, I know the huge difference between them and any other format.
More information about this in tapeproject.com/
I recommend starting with “Why Tape?”
And www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
Everyone talk about the LP be the best, fully analog and so on!
But the LP has a sort of resolution. The LP can not be cut with infinite details, the needle have to have a minimum of variation in the groves to be able to "detect" them, in other words, the LP have to have fairly rough groves to work, fare more then any digital media.
On the other hand, do the LP sound as perfect as we can hear, so the rough resolution have to be enough for our limited hearing.
That means that wary high resolution digital media, have to be extremely more detailed then we can hear.
So yes High End do exists, it is a system that make ask yourself if you are listening live or not.
The deficiencies of the anachronistic vinyl are even more than those you are mentioning.
The digital HiRez formats are “analog-like”, their slogan. That automatically confirms the superiority of analog sound which is the reference. But how much “analog-like” are those files? Nobody knows because there is no standard or measure to determine that. More subjective and ambiguous cannot be this “analog-like” term.
Therefore, the current formats are limited, corrupted and away from the original master analog tapes that are far from perfection, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital.
A true Hi End format at least, must be a replica of those masters and so far only the high quality Reel to Reel (R2R) direct copies at 2 track and 15 IPS can be extremely close to them and of course with an authentic 100% pure analog sound.
Because I own some original master tapes and a few back-up copies, I know the huge sound difference between them and any other format.
More information about the “new” R2R format in tapeproject.com/
I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer:
“Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right.
We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.”
I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site.
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
This is an abstract:
“Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests.
One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl.
What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better.
It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed.
Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity.
Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.
The company catalog includes 27 other albums (now are more and coming other titles on the way). Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.”
You can search in Google more about the analog Reel to Reel format and fine a lot of information.
For instance: hifipig.com/keeping-it-reel-reel-to-reel-at-high-end-munich/
Thanks for a great and wary interesting answer!! And yes, the original R2R are a world for it self, if you have heard that, all other popular media can go home:-)
Thanks for your answer and best regards.
I thought he was going to give us the secret of how to fix it.
+Dazlidorne Jenkins
Here it is:
The LaserDisc had analog sound using an FM carrier. Now is possible to convert the original analog master tapes in a carrier of FM, transfer them to master tapes and then to memory cards eliminating the problems of Laser devices. This could be a real replica of the original master tapes and this technology is not expensive and the reproducers with slots for memory cards neither.
This is the secret, now it is necessary that some company do it.
You can not quote that there is no such ting as high-end audio!
The audio components that have smaller tolerances than those with big tolerance, can be seen as high-end audio. If the quality chain from the recording to the players, amplification and the speakers that have small tolerance, we can call those components high end audio.
Hi-End Audio is a whole made of several parts and if only one part is poor or bad the sound of the whole system is poor or bad.
The poor or bad part is the software - sources of music - not the hardware.
No one with common sense can say that listening to music with scratches, clicks and pops can be a true HI End Audio reproduction, even with the best equipment in the world.
It is important to note that these noises are only on the vinyl format. It not in the original analog master tapes, not in the other formats and of course not in live performances, so what the term High Fidelity means, is not for the anachronistic vinyl because scratches, clicks and pops are faithful to nothing, unless if the audience was allowed to eat potato chips in concerts.
The Compact Disc with 16 bits has around four times less information than the master tapes, the vinyl and the 24 bits SACD, DVD-Audio and most Hi-Rez files. There is no a CD player, regardless the price, that can include the information that was not recorded originally. Obviously with such limitation cannot be a true Hi End format.
But the Compact Disc's superiority to Vinyl in a number of sonic parameters are precision, outer detail, speed stability, dynamic range, channel separation which means better soundstage, up to 80 minutes of continuous recorded music, no noise floor, scratches, clicks and pops; no mistracking, wow and flutter, eccentric center holes and warped discs; no rumble, hum, record wear, without corrosive dust attracted by electrostatic charges, no friction and harm of the laser beam to the disc and no wear of it, no pre or post echoes, no coloration by acoustic reflections and vibrations, easy to handle, play, clean and store and without the necessity of adjustments on the pick-up system by the user.
Unfortunately, it also subtracts those aspects of the sound which are the vital essence of music; ie convey of individuality and emotions. That is why Digital is more intellectually than emotionally satisfying. This is especially true for those who are very familiar with excellent analog sound.
Now, if the Compact Disc would be better in ALL parameters the noisy, impractical and anachronistic Vinyl had disappeared more than 30 years ago as the audio cassette, but Vinyl is very alive with increasing sales year by year worldwide and this is because the analog format can convey ALL the emotion and “soul” of music and many people prefer it even with pops and clicks*, than the clean but less emotive sound of the digital formats. *(By logic, only one single click and/or pop is enough to disqualify vinyl as a Hi End Audio product).
Now take in mind that those who disappeared were the two modern and superior 24 bit formats, DVD Audio and SACD. So, something is wrong with digital audio.
The new Hi-Rez formats are “analog-like”, their slogan. That automatically confirms the superiority of analog sound which is the reference. But how much “analog-like” are those files? Nobody knows because there is no standard or measure to determine that. More subjective and ambiguous cannot be this “analog-like” term.
Many audiophiles found that the sound of these files is not as good as they should be and reject the so-called PC-Audio because among other things, computers are not Hi End Audio products, they do not have discrete circuits and premium parts with very low tolerances.
Therefore, the current formats are limited, corrupted and away from the original master analog tapes that are far from perfection, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital.
A true Hi End format at least, must be a replica of those masters and so far only the high quality Reel to Reel (R2R) tapes can be extremely close to them and of course with an authentic 100% pure analog sound.
Because I own some original master tapes and a few back-up copies, I know the huge difference between them and any other format.
By the way, the so-called Hi End Audio is only for very rich people, not for audiophiles. They want to own the most expensive things in the world that most people cannot reach and that is their real pleasure, not the music. For logic, they are not true music lovers and even they have not enough time to listen to it.
More information about The “new” R2R format in tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with “Why Tape?”
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
www.analogarts.net/project-r2r
www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/
(Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier).
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions:
th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html
Unfortunately right now the tapes are very expensive with a few titles and I hope that this reborn and improved format grow enough to down the prices.
Here are some abstracts of the sites about R2R that I recommend:
tapeproject.com/
Why Tape? These are two paragraphs of the first answer:
“Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right.
We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.”
I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site.
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
This is an abstract:
“Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests.
One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl.
What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better.
It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed.
Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity.
The Tape Project, which peddles legacy albums ranging from Sonny Rollins’ Saxophone Colossus to The London Philharmonic’s Arnold Overtures. The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.
Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.”
Some more abstracts on the next sites:
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
"Audio tape is the only format that can record and play back pure, natural sound in its whole and original state," Horch House says. "Every other format requires some form of interference with the original audio signal. Audio tape is therefore the only format which allows the listener to hear a recording exactly the way the original artist and producer intended it to sound, before it was altered to fit on a vinyl record, sampled for a CD or squashed down to MP3 size."
www.analogarts.net/project-r2r
As music lovers, we’re spoilt for choice. Our favorite tunes are now available in a wider variety of formats than ever before. But whether you’re a vinyl collector, a digital convert or one of a growing number of audiophiles who are now rediscovering the joy of reel-to-reel tapes, one thing’s clearly agreed: nothing can ever sound - or feel - quite like the original master tape. And when it comes to masters, analogue will always trump digital, hands down.
Listen to an original analogue master tape and you’re hearing exactly what the sound engineer heard on that day, in the studio or on stage, with the band. No remixing, no interference, no compression. Just you and the artist, right there, in the moment - captured in its original essence.”
www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/
(Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier).
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
(Short article that mentions some R2R vintage high quality 2 tracs and 15 IPS of velocity).
People interested on developing audio codecs I would be glad to brainstorm... Imagine analog inside digits
Sorry, I do not understand you.
I think your are absolutely right, but the consequence would be, never hear to not-live-music again. In my case that would mean, there were no more music in my live, because where i live, it is hard to find live-music. So i live with this compromiss. The best music i know (and i mean that seariously) is to go in the woods and listen to the music of nature, thats the most beautiful sounds on earth. After that, in my opinion comes CDs. Vinyl is great, too.
I live in a place that only eventually I can listen good live jazz.
Thanks to the invention of the recorded music I enjoy as much as is possible, the great musicians like John Coltrane, Lee Morgan, Horace Silver, Charles Mingus, etc.
When someone have a good audio system, it is possible to discover many beautiful things that are in those recordings and also the bad things like the annoying noise from vinyl and no emotion with the digital sound.
I know that Laser Disc and Reel to Reel tape were superior formats, without many of the flaws than those of these days that are also excessively expensive.
My critic is because it is possible to make much better recorded music at affordable prices.
Thanks for your comment.
Digital audio does have its issues, but it is the way forward. It does not degrade over time like analogue. The key is the conversion from analogue to digital, and then back to analogue when you want to listen. Modern dacs can have very, very low noise and no jitter. Check Chord Electronics, I believe you will appreciate the work they are doing.
Thanks for the information. I will see it carefully.
If the audio system is able to transport you to the event of it's creation than that is all that matter folks. ..end of story
Alfonso - you are correct to some extent - however it is not just the source - there is 'corruption' of the signal thru out the signal processing chain - from room acoustics, recording microphones, recording media, transcription, amplification, speakers etc. The point of audio from the 'audiophile' or enthusiast perspective is to try to replicate a live musical event as realistically as possible - acknowledging that it is impossible to actually reproduce the event! So, that said - in my opinion some equipment (and combination of equipment) do a better job of reproducing the event than other. As you 'upgrade' components in the audio chain you can come closer to realizing the original event. You will soon reach a point of diminishing returns - where a greater investment in equipment yields you very little return in said reproduction. At this point you are truly in the land of 'high end' audio.
Please see the description of my audio system.
When I seat in front of it and close my eyes, I feel that the musicians are there in my listening room. Of course that is an illusion that breaks when the scratches, clicks and pops of my LPs appear. And with digital, the sound is less natural, less alive and cannot convey the whole emotion of the music.
The best experience that I have in terms of that illusion is with a few original master tapes that I own and some other back-up copies.
Just because it is a different experience should not disqualify recorded media.
Being "good enough" is fine.
+Ronald Santos Thanks for your comments but I only talked about facts.
+Alfonso Viladoms
"Digital music cannot convey the emotion of music, the soul of music as vinyl does"
Have you data on the proportion of soul and emotion missing from dijitter music formats to support the above ...facts?
Examples for CD and SACD will be fine thanks!
+KeenAesthetic1
You know that human emotions cannot be measured and “the soul of music” is a metaphoric expression. But here are some data:
Digital's superiority to Analog in a number of sonic parameters are precision, outer detail, speed stability and noise reduction.
Unfortunately, it also subtracts those aspects of the sound which are the vital essence of music; the conveyor of individuality and emotions. That is why Digital is more intellectually than emotionally satisfying.
Now, if Dijitter would be better in all parameters the noisy, impractical and anachronistic Vinyl 30 years ago had disappeared. Instead, two modern and “superior” 24 bit formats, DVD-A and SACD are now dead and gone. Those are facts!
A concert (live) without any speaker/amplifiers gives you the most pure sound, it is just you and the performers and the instruments. Nothing can beat this. But hey, the performers cannot visit you every day on every time so there must something in between to overcome this problem as close as is possible. Digital is not bad however what they do with the recordings could be bad, amplifying for example, mess with the recordings. High end does exist, it is just a term to identify quality, as close as can be or as good as can be in the format it supports. Every format can be high end in it's range, that's the tricky part. High-end doesn't mean the best, unbeatable in performance and sound of ALL formats, just of the format. A high-end turntable is really a good turntable but in it's range. High-end audio exists but is not what you think it is, doesn't have to be suberb in all kind of scenario's.
No one with common sense can say that listening to music with scratches, clicks and pops can be a true HI Fi audio reproduction, even with the best turntable / cartridge in the world.
It is important to note that these noises are only on the vinyl format, not in the original master tapes, not in the other formats and of course not in live concerts, only if are allowed the audience to eat potato chips during the performance.
The Compact Disc has four times less information than the master tapes, the vinyl and the 24 bits SACD and DVD-Audio. There is no a CD player, regardless the price, that can include the information that was not recorded originally and also they cannot convey the full emotion of music, as analog. Obviously with such limitations cannot be a true Hi End format.
Now DVD-Audio and SACD are dead and gone and for something would be.
So Hi End as supposes it be does not exist.
youre right
There is a limitation in the equipment but also with the human ear. My cat thinks the high frequency is lacking in my system. I’m not lion, it’s true.
I have received many comments like yours.
Here is my answer again:
Young people hear scratches, clicks, pops and specially hiss much better than people of my age.
Alfonso Viladoms I was just saying no matter how good the persons hearing, human hearing is limited.
Yes, but is our nature. I do not think that if we could hear 25,000 cycles or more, the emotion and beauty of music would be better. At my age hardly a can hear more than 12,000 cycles, maybe less, but I can enjoy the music as well as when I was young.
Alfonso Viladoms agree, that is the point - it’s the enjoyment above all else, no matter the technology.
Thanks for your comments.
I just canceled one item from my wish list, a high end audio system.
Good!
Hi end audio does exist. Perfect recording audio does not exist.
teofilo gill Hi End must be a whole thing. You can own the best turntable, amps and speakers and you heard dirty music with vinyl records or without emotion with clean Compact Discs.
The recordings of Rudy Van Gelder in Blue Note and Fantasy Records are excellent for me, no complaints. I own a few reel tapes of those recordings and are great.
Thanks for your comment.
Jitter is inherent in oversampling aka high speed digital systems
with digital filters. They are actually obsolete, in this day and age and
prevail only due to their low cost, not to mention they are fundamentally flawed if the filter is programmed linear phase (the whole point of the method). They are cheaper than true linear n-bit current weighing devices. Although they can can pull off 124dB of silence, where as CWD cant do much more than 17.5bit at 192khz via a 20bit device, Its important to remember following for context:
1. Reel to Reel is the benchmark medium. It wasnt much better than 72dB = 14bit. Did I say 14bit? 24 bit+ is only desirable for processing, its overkill but due to the nature of floating point arithmetic, that needed to be doubled to compete wit integer in terms of precision. double float is 53bit whilst double int is 64bit, go figure. Marketing, sale, numbers.
2. We can hear 20dB into/below noise in the most sensitive region of
hearing, this is because noise is usually an averaged measurement, which is why older mediums might measure bad but sound not that bad afterall. Welcome to capitalism.
For recording and playback of effects in studio via 17bit CWDs are more than enough, as was the case in the old tape/sampler days leading upto 1997, which was the last time a sampler had CWD, due to the ever increasing needless obsession with bit depth. For transmission 17bit+ is desirable to maintain the artists products, so that its delivered and heard as intended.
Theres very little playback equipment can do enhance the signal. Do not fall for it. Its up to artists and engineers to ensure quality recording. In an age where recording technology is widely accessible to non professionals and quality ever increasingly rare, good luck with that. The stark realization that only music issued on LP before 1987 is worthy of titl hifi, with the year 2000 at a push if one researches how it was recorded (i,e, reel to reel straight into HDCD, which do exist but in smaller numbers).
A few years ago an audio engineer told me this:
“If you have a book in English and you give it to the best translator to write it in Spanish and then give it to another real good translator to make it again in English and compare it with the original version, you will find many changes in words, grammar and even concepts.
Vinyl and digital are two completely different languages that will have several changes, missed things and other added that were not in the original analog source, after the conversion Analog to Digital and then to Analog again.
He said: It is impossible to have an identical analog sound than the original, after the digital conversions”.
For instance, a back-up copy of an original analog master tape is accurate because it is made with exactly the same language.
I think also that the digital formats have too much processing and in my opinion in audio as simple is the thing, it is better.
I think you saw these links but anyway I include them again:
tapeproject.com/
I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer:
“Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right.
We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.”
I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site.
I do not know what is the signal-to-noise ratio of the IEC EQ is, but the tape project people say it's better than Dolby B and DBX and I think also these noise reduction systems have also to much processing.
This link is very interesting:
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
This is an abstract:
“Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests.
One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl.
What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better.
It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed.
Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity.
Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.
The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.”
More sites about R2R
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
www.horchhouse.com/home-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-2-1
www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/
(Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier or a HQ CD reproducer).
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions:
th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html
TAPE IS COMINCK HOLY SMOKES
actually, any bandlimited signal can be perfectly reconstructed using digital sampling. digital audio has been improving for decades but even at its beginning its specs were approaching the limits of human perceptibility
The problem is that all digital formats and vinyl records are far from the original analog master tapes. Too much processing in any case.
Maybe this information would be interesting for you: tapeproject.com/
I recommend start with, Why Tape?
And www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
@@cinequadom tape is very good, perhaps the best thing that we have short of digital audio. i would argue that the time based errors of digital audio are less perceivable than those from even the best tape machines, and far below the limits of human perception
digital audio is almost perfect, its errors mostly pop up in situations requiring processing of digital audio. for instance, nonlinear digital processing can not be properly bandlimited, and therefore will produce aliased harmonics which cannot be eliminated (only reduced), but surely jitter from digital systems is less than the wow and flutter from even the best tape machines
I think you're discussing "perfect audio," not "high end" audio here.
No, that is not the point.
I am not seeking for a “perfect or pure sound”, since that is impossible in audio. The point is about the current formats that are not true Hi End or Hi Fi.
Hi End is a whole made of several parts and if only one part is poor or bad the sound of the whole system is poor or bad.
The poor or bad part is the software - sources of music - not the hardware - equipment -.
No one with common sense can say that listening to music with scratches, clicks and pops can be a true HI End Audio reproduction, even with the best equipment in the world.
It is important to note that these noises are only on the vinyl format. It not in the original analog master tapes, not in the other formats and of course not in live performances, so what the term High Fidelity means, is not for the anachronistic vinyl because scratches, clicks and pops are faithful to nothing, unless if the audience was allowed to eat potato chips in concerts.
The Compact Disc with 16 bits has around four times less information than the master tapes, the vinyl and the 24 bits SACD, DVD-Audio and most Hi-Rez files. There is no a CD player, regardless the price, that can include the information that was not recorded originally. Obviously with such limitation cannot be a true Hi End format.
Take in mind also that the two modern and superior 24 bit formats, DVD Audio and SACD are disappeared and for something would be.
The new Hi-Rez formats are “analog-like”, their slogan. That automatically confirms the superiority of analog sound which is the reference. But how much “analog-like” are those files? Nobody knows because there is no standard or measure to determine that. More subjective and ambiguous cannot be this “analog-like” term.
Therefore, the current formats are limited, corrupted and away from the original master analog tapes that are far from perfection, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital.
A true Hi End format at least, must be a replica of the original analog master analog tapes that are not perfect either, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital that are far from them. So, only the “new” high quality Reel to Reel (R2R) direct copies at 2 track and 15 IPS can be extremely close to them and of course with an authentic 100% pure analog sound.
Because I own some original master tapes and a few back-up copies, I know the huge sound difference between them and any other format.
By the way, the so-called Hi End Audio is only for very rich people, not for audiophiles. They want to own the most expensive things in the world that most people cannot reach and that is their real pleasure, not the music. By logic, they are not true music lovers and even they have not enough time to listen to it.
More information about the “new” R2R format in tapeproject.com/
I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer:
“Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right.
We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.”
I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site.
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
This is an abstract:
“Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests.
One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl.
What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better.
It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed.
Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, surface noise, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity.
Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.
The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.”
More sites about R2R:
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
horchhouse.com/project-r2r/
www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/
(Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier or a HQ CD reproducer).
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions:
th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html
So, Hi End or H Fi exists only with this high quality R2R format, with the others not!
Unfortunately right now the HQ tapes are very expensive with a few titles and I hope that this reborn and improved format grow enough to down the prices.
Thanks for your comment.
Alfonso Viladoms Even though you made this two years ago, I feel compelled to comment on this. I have been around R2R a lot over the course of my career, and while I agree with you that it is far superior to vinyl, I have to take issue with you about your comments regarding digital. For one thing, the CD format using 16 bits that equates to 96dB of dynamic range is not 4 times less than tape. I worked on professional tape recorders and about the best dynamic range they can provide is around 75bB. So tape provides about 100 times LESS dynamic range than the CD. Also the CD has much lower distortion than tape especially at the higher levels of music.
About the jitter in digital, it has been eliminated through buffering and reclocking and in any case is much less audible than the speed variations accompanying tape or vinyl.
I really can’t understand why you have so much distain for good digital sound. Please explain. But do try to be briefer than this post of yours. Thanks
couldnt agree more,,,its like being in theather listenin orchestar,,,,and then go home and listen it on wav,or flac format,,,no mather what quality of digital format,what mics,plugins,equipment,,,there is no emotion,,,i played a lot of time on acusstic instruments,,,really beautifull songs ,,,and people cried like river flows,,,,, merry xmas by the way,,great video
+Maškov Production Thank you very much for your comment and Happy New Year.
Audio is an industry, and they do have to come up with « new » systems, gear, etc . in order to renew interest. It works like any other big business and marketing is doing the rest.
Yes you are right! Thanks for your comment.
These gentleman has absolutely right,You Tube can be great exhaust and good opportunity to get rid off all frustration.
Thanks for your comments and best regards.
this guy wants PCM sampled at 510,000 samples per second and 128-bits s/n ratio
+lizichell2 Even if that were possible, it would not eliminate the jitter and other digital artifacts.
I suppose, but it would make them much less noticeable
+lizichell2 Jitter is more important than any other thing and in my experience reducing it at the maximum makes the sound more analogical.
Try the XRCD format with quite reduced jitter in the mastering process, that even at 16 bits/44.1K sounds better than the SACD at 24 bit/96K.
www.elusivedisc.com/xrcdinfo.asp
www.elusivedisc.com/xrcd24digprocess.pdf
So, it's more to do with the mastering process than the media it end's up on.
+lizichell2 Jitter is present from the beginning to the end in the digital media.
Many expensive CD players are made to reduce jitter in the reproduction but cannot reduce it if is present from the original digital master tapes.
For the cost and the general acceptance of CDs an expensive process like that of XRCD is not an option.
But then digitally produced electronic music should be considered high end by your definition or am I wrong?
I do not understand what you mean.
As I know, electronic music is a genre as classical music, jazz, pop, etc.
All types of recorded music on vinyl and digital formats cannot qualify for Hi End Audio.
What I mean is that most music looses information in the steps between being recorded -> distributed -> played on your stereo through your speakers. BUT music made in a digital environment in an lossless
format will not loose any information before it's played on your speakers. Then of course you could argue that the only true version of the song made is if you listen to it on the same headphones/studio monitors that the producer of the song used as he made the music, but still, you understand what I mean, right?
(except the sample functions of course, they are far from lossless, but then there is sample free music)
As I know there is another kind of losses in the digital sound when the analog signal is converted to a binary process and then again to analog.
All digital and the vinyl format are far from the original analog master tapes.
Here is some information about this:
tapeproject.com/
I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” And these are two paragraphs of the first answer:
“Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right.
We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.”
Is interesting that all digital formats have an “analog-like” sound but, what about the pure analog sound of the vinyl format?
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
This is an abstract:
“Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests.
One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl.”
“What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better.
It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed.
Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity.”
“Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.”
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
"Audio tape is the only format that can record and play back pure, natural sound in its whole and original state," Horch House says. "Every other format requires some form of interference with the original audio signal. Audio tape is therefore the only format which allows the listener to hear a recording exactly the way the original artist and producer intended it to sound, before it was altered to fit on a vinyl record, sampled for a CD or squashed down to MP3 size."
www.analogarts.net/
“As music lovers, we’re spoilt for choice. Our favorite tunes are now available in a wider variety of formats than ever before. But whether you’re a vinyl collector, a digital convert or one of a growing number of audiophiles who are now rediscovering the joy of reel-to-reel tapes, one thing’s clearly agreed: nothing can ever sound - or feel - quite like the original master tape. And when it comes to masters, analogue will always trump digital, hands down.
Listen to an original analogue master tape and you’re hearing exactly what the sound engineer heard on that day, in the studio or on stage, with the band. No remixing, no interference, no compression. Just you and the artist, right there, in the moment - captured in its original essence.”
www.analogarts.net/project-r2r
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
internationalphonographinc.com/master_tapes.html (See comments)
1. High end audio does exist if you know what makes music emotional and evolving.
2. Digital has its limitations but has evolved dramaticaly.
3.Turntables are the way to music bliss, but you need to invest a ''high end'' ammount of money to match
todays dacs.
4.Listening to music with shity equipement and loving it is only a romantic fact, we all have felt it before but hadn't known high end audio. Listening the same music with a high end audio system is an entirely differed experience, plus your ears dont hurt.
5.In a good audio system, not ultra expencive, even mp3 can sound decent.
+vagomaniac As I said many times, Hi-End is a whole made of several parts and if only one part is poor or bad the sound of the whole system is poor and/or bad.
Listen to music with the annoying scratches, clicks and pops cannot be a Hi-End or Hi-Fi reproduction, even with the best equipment..
Now if the Compact Disc would be better than vinyl, 30 years ago this format had disappeared as the Audio Cassette, even the 24 bit DVD-Audio and SACD are dead.
Instead the sales of vinyl records, turntables, cartridges, etc. are increasing year by year worldwide and this is because the analog format can convey the full emotion and soul of music and many people prefer it even with pops and clicks, than the clean and cold sound of digital formats.
As better is the equipment, the flaws of the actual formats are more evident.
For me a true Hi-End format must be a replica of the original analog master tapes and the current formats are far from that.
Maybe this link could be interesting for you: tapeproject.com/
All you needs a nice source and well-designed DAC sounds fine to me.
+dndlionx Much better for me are the original analog master tapes that I have and some back-up copies.
Maybe this site would be interesting for you: tapeproject.com/
Happy New Year.
Your right. neither format is perfect... I prefer vinyl personally, maybe cos I was brought up listening to it and I like the aesthetic n interaction u get with it. Thanks for this vid, made me feel better about the cheap antiquated audio gear I use. You have probably saved me hundreds of pounds on trying to get a better sound that I might not achieve anyway lol, all the best.
And I think that your antiquated sound gear is not so far of many current audio systems at stratospheric prices.
Best regards
1.4 million zeros and ones per second is plenty of information to store two analog audio signals
I think the problem is not to store analog audio signals in the DiJitter formats.
Alfonso Viladoms
CD quality is sufficent for me but if it's not to you then there is 24-bit/192kHz which is 9 million bits per second which is 6 times more than CD.
It's still not unlimited but the quality should be indistinguishable from master tape
Andre Hallqvist The problem is not to store more or less bits.
Why don’t you try to listen a XRCD against the same title in CD, both are 16 bit formats.
You are going to hear a notable difference in favor of the much less jitter XRCD format.
You can try with these titles:
XRCD: www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=9071360&style=music&setpref=none&x=17064478859400
CD: www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=6823855&style=music&setpref=none&x=17064478859400
Here is the link for XRCD if you prefere to try other titles: www.elusivedisc.com/Home-Of-XRCD/products/859/
The comments in the video have merit, no audio playback form is perfect. Nothing is better than live music itself. I do however find the satisfaction of listening to high end audio music playback in the comfort of my own home and convenience of my own time to be a reasonable trade off.
Yes, you are right except because the current sound is not really Hi End. Thanks for your comment.
I dont care with high end audio as long as the sound reproduction that I hear is good enough for me and enjoy the music thats it
You are right. The problem is that vinyl and digital formats do not qualify for the so-called Hi End Audio that is also too expensive.
Zig you are going to compare analog to digital you should compare high speed tape not records.
This video needs to be updates in 2017 for MQA
I think it's still current.
For instance DVD- Audio and SACD are disappeared.
The new Hi-Rez formats are “analog-like”, their slogan. That automatically confirms the superiority of analog sound which is the reference. But how much “analog-like” are those files? Nobody knows because there is no standard or measure to determine that. More subjective and ambiguous cannot be this “analog-like” term.
Therefore, the current formats are limited, corrupted and away from the original master analog tapes that are far from perfection, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital.
A true Hi End format at least, must be a replica of the original analog master analog tapes that are not perfect either, but unquestionably superior to vinyl and digital that are far from them. So, only the “new” high quality Reel to Reel (R2R) direct copies at 2 track and 15 IPS can be extremely close to them and of course with an authentic 100% pure analog sound.
Maybe these links could be helpful:
tapeproject.com/
I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer:
“Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right.
We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.”
I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site.
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
This is an abstract:
“Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests.
One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl.
What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better.
It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed.
Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity.
Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.
The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.”
More sites about R2R
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
www.horchhouse.com/home-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-2-1
www.gearnews.com/revox-new-r2r-tape-machine-set-arrive-next-year/
(Interesting that the price of the R2R Revox player it could be less than a medium priced "Hi End" turntable, cartridge and a phono preamplifier or a HQ CD reproducer).
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions:
th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html
Unfortunately right now the tapes are very expensive with a few titles and I hope that this reborn and improved format grow enough to down the prices.
High end audio is = Live music in an acoustically correct environment.
And Alfonso as the only person in the audience so no one can make any noises. Hopefully someone have greased up the drummer chair so it does not squeek.
+Jørgen Mengshoel
As you I never heard scratches, clicks and pops in live music. These anomalies appear only in the vinyl format and are not in the original analog master tapes.
Listen to music with those annoying noises cannot be a Hi End reproduction even in the best acoustically environment.
I can play my drum set and the chirping of birds and other external noises without being disturbed.
the truthful nature of music is it disappears into the air as soon as it is created by design,,, it is unnatural to capture that magic in a
bottle.. or a vinyl.. or a tape and recreate all the natural beauty of its creation. I like tape and vinyl.
I like your comment, thanks for it.
It's scary. I am an audiophile. I look like Alfonzo, I have a drumset in my music room which I play to recordings and I agree with him. It's a trade off that you don't get with love music.
+nicholas cremato Thanks for your comments and best regards.
One cannot argue with their own ears and what they hear. I used to hear music, but didn't pay attention to the nuances of music. I grew up in the so called golden age of stereo, but l wasn't in to music and audio like I am to today. Since I will most likely spend the rest of my days on earth in pursuit of best system and recordings I can afforded and probably not afford, I will continue my journey. In a chaotic world, music is the only thing I can count on, and one of the few things left that I truly can enjoy.
Thanks for you comment I appreciate it.
Your welcome.
The real test is a blindfold test and see if you are listening to a natural sound or whatever.
It is not necessary a blindfold test to hear scratches, clicks and pops of the vinyl format.
But analog recording always trumps over digital, especially with a high quality format like the Reel to Reel tape.
More information on the following sites:
tapeproject.com/
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
www.analogarts.net/
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
The pops and clicks of the vinyl format are ok and make it that much more special. Record a vinyl format on tape and cd. Then do a blind test to listen and see if you actually know what you are listening to.
High Fidelity tries to reproduce the sound as close as is possible as live music and nobody listen to scratches, clicks and pops on live performances, only if are allowed the audience to eat potato chips during the event.
Those annoying noises only are present in the anachronistic vinyl, not in any other format, and of course not in real life.
If you like to hear music with those noises and you think that is very special, well that is not relevant for anybody.
It is also irrelevant and a waste of time to record a vinyl to R2R or CD and try to perceive or not the differences between them in a blind test. That is not the point, the real thing is that vinyl and digital formats are quite far from the original analog master tapes.
Obviously you did not read anything about the new Reel to Reel format, so I made some abstracts of the information on the sites I gave you.
tapeproject.com/
I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” And these are two paragraphs of the first answer:
“Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right.
We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.”
Is interesting that all digital formats have an “analog-like” sound but, what about the pure analog sound of the vinyl format?
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
This is an abstract:
“Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests.
One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl.”
“What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better.
It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed.
Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity.”
“Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.”
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
"Audio tape is the only format that can record and play back pure, natural sound in its whole and original state," Horch House says. "Every other format requires some form of interference with the original audio signal. Audio tape is therefore the only format which allows the listener to hear a recording exactly the way the original artist and producer intended it to sound, before it was altered to fit on a vinyl record, sampled for a CD or squashed down to MP3 size."
www.analogarts.net/
“As music lovers, we’re spoilt for choice. Our favorite tunes are now available in a wider variety of formats than ever before. But whether you’re a vinyl collector, a digital convert or one of a growing number of audiophiles who are now rediscovering the joy of reel-to-reel tapes, one thing’s clearly agreed: nothing can ever sound - or feel - quite like the original master tape. And when it comes to masters, analogue will always trump digital, hands down.
Listen to an original analogue master tape and you’re hearing exactly what the sound engineer heard on that day, in the studio or on stage, with the band. No remixing, no interference, no compression. Just you and the artist, right there, in the moment - captured in its original essence.”
www.analogarts.net/project-r2r
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
internationalphonographinc.com/master_tapes.html (See comments)
store.acousticsounds.com/s/462?keywords=NL100416&NL100416&Banner&AS_NL (New titles)
The pops and clicks are what make vinyl unique. The entire point of CD was to eliminate the noise generated by records and hiss on tapes. High Fidelity clean audio will trick you into believing that you are hearing a natural sound. I have seen it for myself. Try a blindfold test and you will see most people don't know what is natural or not. Just like those snooty whine tasters that don't know what they are drinking unless there is a label on it.
What you say about the “unique” pops and clicks of vinyl it was a headache of sound engineers and audiophiles all over the world. That why was the invention of the CD, primordially to eliminate those annoying noises.
I do not believe in blind tests because the sound listening is very subjective and is important to have very high quality audio equipment that can reproduce the most minimum detail.
For instance: if I record a vinyl to a CD recorder (I have one) the reproduction it will be different because the circuit and electronic parts are different and additional to the circuits of the preamplifier. The same thing occurs with a tape recorder.
A non experienced listener can hear no significant differences between the original vinyl and their copies.
Anyway, you believe in blind tests but I do not. There will never be a coincidence between our two radically different appreciations.
I agree wth you Mr. Viladoms, at least in principle, that "high-end" audio does not exist. Perhaps vinyl is indeed "purer" in audio quality than digital but, if we discussing the most accurate reproduction of recorded audio then, today's consumer electronics is arguably and subjectively superior. I simply do not hear "clicks," "pops" and "hissing" in my digital music...only absolutely beauty that indeed transports me to other times and places!
As Mr. Larson has previously well articulated, digital "jitter" has at the very least, become inaudible to most of us. Today, better sourcing of digital recordings, more affordable DACs (crutial) and audio componentry now greatly compliment today's listening experience thus, 'fooling' (if you will) one's ears and mind into believing great digital audio can be experienced.
I am well into my 60's and I grew up during the periods of the 60s and 70s when "33rpm" and "45rpm" vinyl discs were prolific. Thanks to good friend's dad long ago passed, I learned to listen to great music in vinyl and I prefer digital audio. No, "high-end" audio does not exist, only better delivery to one's ears of the original recording. Semantics....? Best wishes and Happy listening to all!
Thanks Lupe for your comments.
Because I bought many years ago a prosumer Technics RS 1506 Reel to Reel recording machine and I own some original professional tapes and a few back-up copies, all in 2 tracks and 15 inches per second (IPS), I can hear the huge difference between these and the music from vinyl and digital formats.
First, the open reel professional tapes does not have scratches, clicks and pops and very, very low hiss, much greater dynamic range than vinyl, absolute accurate traced of the tracks and immune to resonances and vibrations. It is pure analog sound without the issues of the conversion to digital.
The commercial tapes of 4 tracks and 7.5 IPS are without scratches, clicks and pops but yes with higher hiss, reduced dynamic range and an absurd way of recording on four narrow tracks two sides A & B as on vinyl. Unnecessary because it is possible to put the whole recording in just one side of the tape and with much better sound at 2 tracks and easier to handle.
These complications and the advent of the audio cassette much easier to handle, less expensive and perfect for car-audio were the killers of R2R the most promising format for a real HI Fi reproduction.
Now some audio companies are trying a reborn of R2R with very high quality copies in two tracks and at 15 ips and those are like replicas of the original analog master tapes.
Unfortunately there is a shortage of titles and expensive as the new recording machines. So Hi End Audio is only for very rich people, not for audiophiles.
Meanwhile we are hearing not a really Hi End Audio reproduction, some like you without the annoying noises of vinyl and others with clicks and pops but with a more natural sound with the full convey of the emotion of music.
I think there is not a theme of semantics. As I said many times, Hi-End Audio is a whole made of several parts and if only one part is poor or bad the sound of the whole system is poor or bad. In this case the bad part are the current formats.
Well, happy listening of recorded music, to all of us, as much as we can until now.
I include some information about R2R:
First the great piece of engineering, the Studer 820:
th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html
And these other sites:
tapeproject.com/ I recommend starting with Why Tape?
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
www.analogarts.net/
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
No part of affordable(whatever that word means to you, 50euro or 5000eur, it doesn't matter, it's still true;-) audio reproduction chain is as limited or as you say "corrupted" as transducers (speakers, headphones...).
Ok and microphones, but recording studios can afford a whole colletion of hi-end mics. And hopefully know which to use.
The best Hi End microphones can give an excellent recording sound in the studio but without scratches, clicks and pops that appears only in the vinyl format and that is what I call corruption. Not for instance, the acceptable distortion values on speakers, amplifiers and the other components of the chain.
Well yes, i ment that even completely untrained person can hear difference in sound from different speakers. Or headphones... Not necesarily telling which one is better, but once you listen to like 3 different pairs you can easily say which one is connected without looking...
It is hard or impossible for someone not really into HIFI to tell apart different decent amplifiers by sound. Or semi-decent DACs/CD or other digital sources. Never really considered vinyl to be of real consideration for majority, or for me, you know, because lazyness (and fragility of records if improperly handeled), i think good DAC and silent computer is good enough. For me.
You are absolutely right sir. Feel music not audio device or system
Thank you very much for your comment.
You should try digital music with a dac (digital to analog converter). Sounds just as natural or even more natural than vinyl, since vinyl adds noice and all sorts of prolems. But i made the same mistake myself, and listened to digital music in binary for many years :(
The new DACs are more and more analog than before or more “analog-like” and those are their slogans. That automatically confirms the superiority of analog sound which is the reference. But how much “analog” are those DACs? Nobody knows because there is no standard or measure to determine that. More subjective and ambiguous cannot be this “more analog” term.
Yes, vinyl has many flaws and the worst is the annoying surface noises, but it is not the only source of analog sound.
Because those vinyl flaws, now some audio companies are trying to reborn the Reel to Reel or R2R format with direct copies from the Master tapes at 2 tracks and 15 IPS, which is until now the best format and the only one that deserves the Hi End Audio qualifier.
More information about the “new” R2R format in tapeproject.com/
I recommend starting with “Why Tape?” These are two paragraphs of the first answer:
“Most people have not had the experience of hearing studio master tapes. Many formats have been introduced with the promise of bringing master tape sound into the home listening room. Yeah, right.
We don’t expect that this tape project will replace any of your other favorite formats, so we see no need to dwell on the drawbacks of any other format. Suffice it to say that we don’t offer an “analog-like” listening experience. We are offering a chance to have in your own listening room an actual analog listening experience as close to the original master tape as practical.”
I recommend reading all, including the IEC EQ, the 1-1/2 generation copies, about the prices of the tapes and of course, the entire page and site.
www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend
This is an abstract:
“Like string theory, audiophile subculture is complex and defined by unresolved questions. Is an insanely expensive cable really better than an outrageously expensive cable? Do tube amps trump solid-state amps? Horn, electrostatic, or ribbon hybrid speakers? What about Kind of Blue - mono or stereo? Each position can be defended or attacked with various specs, waveform graphs, and double blind listening tests.
One question, however, has been resolved: tape or vinyl? Even the most dubious critics find no ambiguity here. The verdict: tape sounds better than vinyl.
What makes tape such a smart choice? For starters, it has greater dynamic range than vinyl, with extraordinary sound at the frequency extremes: the treble and bass. Next, consider the amount of signal processing that each medium requires. Vinyl: a lot. Tape: very little. Signal processing is the enemy of hi-fidelity. The less studio voodoo the master tape (MT) is subjected to, the better.
It helps to understand how vinyl and tape albums are manufactured. To make a record, the MT signal must be compressed to match the dynamic limits of vinyl. Some of the highs and lows are slashed in the bargain. All the other audio tricks needed to shoehorn a signal into those tiny grooves compromises the signal even more. Dubbing 1/4-inch tapes is a much simpler task. With no need to squeeze or tweak the original signal, it can be transferred from the MT relatively unscathed.
Then there’s the dicey issue of playback. With turntables, all sorts of mechanical foibles - rumble, skips, speed stability, inner groove distortion, etcetera - can further degrade the signal. In contrast, R2R is an exercise in simplicity. The only moving part at the point of signal retrieval is the tape, which travels in a straight line across a stationary playback head. Efficiency equals fidelity.
The Tape Project, which peddles legacy albums ranging from Sonny Rollins’ Saxophone Colossus to The London Philharmonic’s Arnold Overtures. The company catalog includes 27 other albums, with more on the way. Some audio critics claim this is the highest fidelity ever captured on 1/4-inch tape. That may be so, considering that each album is a first-generation copy dubbed in real time, at a leisurely 30 ips, directly from the original master tape. There is no mixing or remastering involved. In essence, this is the master tape. It doesn’t get any better than this. Better is live at Carnegie Hall.
Vinyl fans may scoff at The Tape Project’s steep prices, but when licensing fees, production time (3.5 hours per album), and materials ($150 just for the blank tape) are factored into the equation, $450 seems almost reasonable to hear Lee Morgan’s trumpet riffs on The Sidewinder just as recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder heard them over half a century ago in his New Jersey studio. Incidentally, a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on tape doesn’t just sound better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on vinyl. It sounds better than a Lee Morgan trumpet riff on any audio format: CD, SACD, Pure Audio Blu-Ray, even Neil Young’s crazy 24-bit/192 kHZ hi-res files that take forever to download.”
And more sites about R2R
www.chartattack.com/news/2016/01/21/after-the-vinyl-and-cassette-revolutions-is-reel-to-reel-next/
www.horchhouse.com/home-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-2-1
www.metv.com/stories/move-over-vinyl-reel-to-reel-tape-is-on-the-comeback
And the remarkable piece of engineering the Studer A820 in their three versions:
th-cam.com/video/-lcYBHA6zLY/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/jtidyF3X1ns/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/HuJ9yNFVIFM/w-d-xo.html
Unfortunately right now the tapes are very expensive but more and more titles are appearing and prices will be more affordable in the future.
I think that this format is growing more and more and soon will see new machines in the market at reasonable prices.
www.unitedhomeproducts.com/the_uha_phase1_tape_deck.htm
US$6,500.00 is less expensive than many “Hi End” turntables and / or cartridges or even phono preamplifiers and step-up-transformers.
Here more models of this company (and more expensive):
www.unitedhomeproducts.com/prices_and_features.htm
I don't think he even knows what he's talking about!
I don't think he even knows what is writing about!
Alfonso Viladoms: Here comes one right back at you Al Baby! I don't think he even knows what "HE" is writing about. You need to edit your comment for errors and omissions. LOL
English is not my language, that's obvious. The minimum mistakes anyone can have, even the Anglo people, does not matter if the message is understandable. Somehow silly your comment:)
Alfonso Viladoms: The message you are sending is very understandable but using your words it is simply SILLY. Perhaps you should change the title of your video. As far as the human ear is able to detect, very good to high end audio can faithfully reproduce the live studio sound. The actual sound one prefers may not be what was created in the studio anyway.
When digital came out, sound engineers didn't know how to set up for the BEST digital recording. Record companies just took analog(vinyl) recordings and put them on a CD. BOTH sounded AWFUL. I lost a great deal of money on throwing away those bad recordings. But the engineers learned and the vinyl was mastered and cleaned up to the point that it could be digitized and sound very good.
As I know, the first Compact Discs came from digital master tapes that had 16 bits and 44.1 kHz. Those digital tapes were transfers from the original master analog tapes or sub-masters of them.
Later for instance, with the 75° Anniversary of Blue Note Records, Rudy Van Gelder made new re-mastered digital tapes at 20 and 24 bits with 96 and even 192 kHz.
I think the others are making the same thing.
In my experience a new re-mastered Blue Note CD has slightly better sound than the same old disc, but a really significant improvement is the XRCD format that has a huge reduction of jitter in the digital mastering process. The sound is close to the analog sound of vinyl but without noise. But vinyl conveys more the emotion of music.
www.elusivedisc.com/xrcdinfo.asp
www.elusivedisc.com/xrcd24digprocess.pdf