Adam Ondra's #1 Rule for Training | ft. Neil Gresham
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
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About The Guest:
Neil Gresham is a British climber and coach who has been at the cutting edge for over two decades.
We talked about using ballet as part of his training for his FA of ‘Lexicon’ E11, the importance of developing your finishing game, extensor training for stronger fingers, go-to ring and TRX exercises, sticking our training in the bank, thumb crimping, climbing his first 5.14c (8c+) at age 45, and much more. You can learn more about Neil at 👉 neilgresham.com
Full Show Notes 👉 thenuggetclimb...
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RE: 3:47
Wrist extensor strength improves overall finger strength in flexion because of the mechanical advantage it provides.
Increasing the angle of the wrist in extension preloads the flexor tendons so less muscle contraction is required to exert the same amount of force. Try making a fist with a fully flexed wrist.
This is why climbers 'wing' their elbows when they are fatigued. What is usually happening is that the wrist extensors are burned out and cannot support the wrist shape, so in order to maintain the same mechanical advantage, we will use the shoulder to move the elbow. This however causes the angle of attack for the fingers against the hold to move away from 90 degrees which becomes a positive feedback loop for fatigue!
I think I picked this up in that One Move Too Many book.
I don't see how that applies here. Strengthening extensors doesn't change the hand shape of a crimp grip.
(Also I'm skeptical of that explanation of "winging". My finger flexion strength feels strongest in a neutral or slightly flexed wrist position. A much simpler explanation is just that it's a different posture, so it recruits different things than the ones that are already fatigued. Same reason form breaks in any exercise as you get tired.)
@@codyheiner3636 slight extension of your wrist increases your ability to further load the fingers in a full crimp, but this is because you would otherwise be loading the actual tips of the fingers and in a weak flexed position of the DIP. As well, the advantage of the wrist in extension is elongation of the fds and fdp and greater reliance on mechanisms of passive tension, but this requires the shoulder to reposition and rely on smaller muscles for pulling, which means the arm is mechanically in a great spot to hold on but not to generate any force, and you’re greatly constricting blood vessels which reduces the ability to clear metabolites.
The extensors themselves do not play a significant role, but they can get more engaged in a wrist extended position when the flexor muscles are fatigued, but strengthening those to an extent has uses.
@@codyheiner3636 extending the wrist actually shortens the finger flexors, providing a mechanical advantage for contraction. Try looking up the “tenodesis effect” for wrist and fingers!
The reason you can't make a fist with a fully flexed wrist is just passive insufficiency of the extensor tendons, not a limitation of muscular force or anything. You can see this easily if make a fist normally and then try to use your other hand or a wall or something to flex your other wrist while keeping your fingers balled up [be careful doing this because you can hurt yourself]. At some point you have to uncurl your fingers if you want to fully flex that wrist because the muscles and tendons on the back of your hand simply aren't long enough. Sure with enough force you could theoretically overcome that resistance even without assistance by just tearing the extensors, but I feel like you'd regret the pain and losing the ability to open your hand.
@@codyheiner3636 Because the most important finger flexors cross the wrist (they actually go all the way up to the elbow), your wrist position affects them. The strongest grip is obtained with a slight extension of the wrist (~30 degrees or so) when it comes to simply applying more torque to the finger joints. I can't explain all the reasons why this is the case (as far as I know, to this date no one is completely sure) but it's been empirically well-established.
Because hands are complex, individual variation exists, and climbing often relies on more than just crushing whatever is in your hand as hard as possible, there might be a little more nuance for a particular application, but the basic principles don't change. In every case, the finger flexors flex both the finger joints and the wrist because they cross all of those joints. If you want your fingers to flex but don't want your wrist to flex, something has to stop it, and that's where wrist extensors come in. The harder you can lock that joint into position, the harder your flexors can pull on your fingers.
Neil is a living legend, I am currently following one his training plans with some nutritional advice he gave me and I am feeling the strongest, healthiest and most robust I’ve ever been in my life and all this after hitting my 40’s last year.
which program did u purchase
@@Jaydan originally an 8 week plan, I hadn’t climbed for 3 years and was 3stone over weight, the 8 week got my base back and kept me injury free, that was around September then in January I started an 16 week plan to take up to Kalymnos, got about 4 weeks left and I feel absolutely psyched to put it to the test next month. I would highly recommend Gresh. I also had a 1 to 1 with him as well but obviously only works if you’re U.K. based.
Eat right.
Sleep right.
Train right.
Intensity matters.
Be consistent.
Trust in the process.
Climbing less + lifting more = Quicker gains.
I was a 30 year old that had never climbed before recovering opiate addict that couldn't do a push up now I'm 34 clean and bouldering 7c consistently.
Depression can be your best friend when it comes to physical self-improvement. That dark place it takes you, that self loathing and sickness is like nothing else when it comes to giving you the ability to suffer and if we are training right and training hard, then we should be suffering.
Get after it.
I eat to the fullest
Bouldering 7c after starting climbing so late and after only 4 years is absolutely insane bro. Incredible work man, keep going!
Stout rubber bands are cheaper for finger extensions
Likeliest reasoning, as someone who uses the bands infrequently but generally does pinch block work for this purpose, for the apparent increase in climbing finger strength is not about imbalances in the body exactly but where strain through the elbow and wrist caused by a significantly weaker extensor digitorum causes the golgi tendon organs there to limit finger strength to prevent injury. You could get your fds and fdp muscles to be obscenely strong, but you’ll always be limited if the elbows and shoulders sense risk which comes from strength training around those as well as gradual exposure.
Course, Neil is stating something which in application means the same thing, and I always appreciate Neil and his willingness to self test and adopt new strategies despite having this deep experience, even here when there is an unknown but he simply knows this works.
It sounds to me like you're both very much correct. It's just that you're going one step further and providing a mechanism by which the imbalance inhibits strength, right?
@@adamhaas141 yup, he is not incorrect in application, merely trying to emphasize “antagonist” training has real value for agonist work.
Hi Steven, I love your podcast, and what you've produced here is an incredible resource of climbing nuggets. There's so much value in the long form content of your podcasts but these bitesize videos are gold. Keep them up my friend.
Amazing channel, amazing content! Please don't stop! Keep doing more nugget climbing :)
Love your podcast and am really enjoying these short nuggets your putting up 😊
Yup those bands help my fingers feel a little better if I’m climbing a lot
I’m sold. Anyone have any good recommendations for finger resistance bands?
Dakuan makes them but I’m not sure which brand is being used in the video
latticd
I really like Iron Mind Bands. They're quick and effective. Sturdy too. I've had mine for ages.
great advice, cheers Neil
Even very little antagonist training for my shoulders eliminated all the problems I had in that area.
Hanging weight from the back two (pinky and wedding) is a game changer for me personally! I've found my contact strength, pinch strength and also general grip endurance have gone through the roof. And longer hangs on fingerboard (longer contact time trains endurance quicker than flying through moves quickly on a circuit. Also sorry Jerry Moffat but foot on campus boarding is massively underrated!
Hanging weight on two fingers only? Did I get this right?
Yeah.
what edge can u hold with back 2 so well that you can add weight? maybe in a drag but in half crimp surely not
I didnt say i add weight and hang. I said i hang weight from my fingers. As in Fingerboard + Kettlebell + pick up. And yeah i can hang 30kg on back three in half crimp@@lawsong6663
I never said i hang weight from and hanboard. I add weight to my fingerboard and do pick ups. And yeah 30kg on back two. When you learn what the world record is on a 10mm edge you might pass out haha@@lawsong6663
Finger extensor is also stopping my dupuytren's contracture from getting worse
Bro i just found out i have this happening to my left pinky, gma/uncle have it too
By the way, we really need the Gresh follow up 🤞🏻
I think it's more likely that the body won't *neurologically* allow a contraction with more force than the corresponding antagonist muscles can handle, or at least more than it believes they can handle.
The golgi apparatus and spindle fibers are special organs in your muscles which detect the speed and distance covered of a contraction and help the brain control the level of exertion. Without training, some research suggests they cap force production at around 80% of the actual maximum for safe contraction. If you don't train all the muscles involved to at least similar degrees of fitness, perhaps you are neurologically capped before you are physically capped.
The answer is the same either way: train your antagonists. Just interesting to think about, and could perhaps inform the way you go about doing so
could i get the same results my gripping my fingers and pushing out on my hand?
This is pure gold! Now it’s time to dig that rubber hand thing out of my junk drawer 😂
just ordered some of amazon.. let's see :D
Which brand?
rings for kings
Is this episode out yet? I can’t find it!
EP 133: Neil Gresham! The link is right there in the video description!
@@thenuggetclimbing Hack so it is, thanks! I went straight to my podcast app but didn't see it there, but I was looking for the title to be "Adam Ondra's #1 Rule for Training".
So what brand of finger extensor is best?
I personally like the Iron Mind Bands the best. Super simple and effective. I get annoyed when I have put each individual finger into a loop.
$3 ones on eBay work perfectly
Adam Ondra's #1 Rule for Training - reactivate Holocoste&Gaswagen flashbacks