Win Conditions and their Impact on Commander | Analyzing How Players Win Games
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
- There's plenty of different ways to win a Commander game, but all of them can feel drastically different, and it's part of what leads to Rule 0 discussion in the first place. We're taking a look at the pros and cons of many common forms of game-winning spells.
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I like "large" over infinite. There's something way cooler about doing something and generating 37 Blightsteel Colossus than a combo that makes an infinite number of them.
I agree completely
The other day I was playing my brudiclad deck and cast aquire. Ripped a blightsteel colossus onto the field, then cast quasidupilcate and ran over my opponents with 16 blightsteels. It was good times
@@JCOLD55 beautiful
Exactly why I love my Adrix and Nev deck so much. Anytime anyone asks if I have infinite combos I’m usually like “No just *exponential* ones”. I packed it full of just every decently costed creature token generator that exists in Simic, threw Oko in just for shiggles, it’s been a hell of a deck. Easily my favorite one to play
@@willstebbins5338 technically infinitive doesn’t have to be exponential. You should probably respond “no, just combos”
Really enjoying this content that explores the social aspect of the game more
Friday will be a similar video
I like that you mentioned tension = fun. Adding that to my deck building.
tension is super fun
That's why I love izzet. Does he have a counterspell? Nobody knows, but everyone changes the way they play because of it
Along the combo conversation about feels bads: a game that you played and enjoyed is never a waste of time. A lot of commander games (at least in my group) are an excuse to hang out. Something to fill the silence between conversations. Usually when a game ends, we shuffle up, switch decks and play again.
I actually disagree with most of the "feels bad" from critical mass combos, regular combos, and overkill damage like craterhoof. If those feel like they invalidated a game because "your decisions previously didn't matter" - you were making the wrong decisions, either during the game or during deck building.
Attack the combo player so they have: less life and a shorter clock; less critical mass pieces available as you deplete their resources; punish overextension.
Attack the overkill combat by: removing the creatures they have to deal combat damage; invalidating combat damage for a turn; damage reversal or instant speed wipes.
If it feels like it invalidates the decisions from the rest of the game, that usually means *the table made the wrong decisions*. Ask yourself: "what could have stopped the critical mass? Surgical removal? More pressure throughout the game? Did the combo player spin wheels and draw cards uninterrupted or unimpeded? Did the overkill player have too many creatures sitting around for too long, obviously building up for something? Was someone using their graveyard uninterrupted? Did I fail to identify what the important pieces are and act accordingly?"
Yes, some cards like Thoracle, or Protean Hulk, or Craterhoof, or Expropriate can end games abruptly, and there's nothing you could have done.
But it certainly feels like now the format has become "well, I don't like how you won because I didn't win" or "I don't like how you won because we were both durdling and it was too late to act".
How is the average game supposed to end now, if everything except chip damage feels bad? Does the game ending abruptly invalidate the fun / pace of the rest of the game?
Ask "Why does this feel bad? Is my perception of feelsbad based on skewed or poor expectations?"
Yes, build tension in your games. Know that other players are going to play CM combos, or overkill damage with lots of creatures, or draw/tutor unimpeded and build your decks to both do your thing and punish others for doing their thing. That builds tension - being threatened while your doing your thing, so you don't have time to do it.
Honestly I kinda agree here I have a range of decks that do different things. It can fele bad to loose because your deck didnt work perfectly but thats the game. Hell one of my favorite overkill doesnt use craterhoof but is instead avenger of zendikar in an essix deck. Get to have 8 zendikars and 49 8/9 tokens and its super easy to disable any of that if you let that happen you deserve the loss. I intentionally ran low interaction in the deck to incentivize people to try and stop me. But people focus on their own combo or strat leave me alone to long and they die. That is not my fault like at all and if you feel bad because you didnt get your win con before one of mine showed up thats really on you.
100% agree with this.
I agree
I agree with this
I agree 100%.
I have no idea what Im "allowed" to Win with anymore. If me winning with 10 1/1s that get +5/+5 and trample "feels bad" now, what the hell am i supposed to do with my token deck?
Invalidates previous turn? How did i get to 10 tokens? Could i have been stopped? Winning has started to feel so bad that I sometimes lose on purpose. Or atleast play sub optimaly.
How I feel is that any strategy to win is 100% OK and the fun is in part about guessing and working around your opponents strategies.
When I think about a strategy and feel it's unfair or not fun, it's just the sign that I was not prepared for it.
So I just have to up my game and improve :)
Finally someone with a sensible mind state.
I feel like there's expected to be a "cooperative storytelling" aspect with my commander group. We all understand that we subtly pull punches to try and let everyone's deck be a part of the story and then when it's time to close it out, whoever gets there gets there. We might never know who would've really won if we went all out; but it doesn't really matter. It's not like there's anything to prove. We already know who's decks are more powerful, etc. No point in flexing as hard as you can every game, that's what we play cEDH and 60 card 1v1 for.
I think it is import in game to try and win and in deck building to make the game as fun as possible
@@NitpickingNerds That too, but there are vast differences in building proficiency and not everyone actually can (or ever will be able to) fine tune a deck to a deliberate level of "fun" as they should be able to in theory. For example, I build for a lot of friends because they simply don't have time in their lives to develop that skill or don't have the desire to. There are even a lot of professional magic players who never brew - only pilot and optimize.
I do not like the idea of pulling punches. If you can win the game I would much prefer you just win the game than make drag out for another 15 turns, but my playgroup is also full of people who have a variety of different decks and want to play as many of them as they can on our game night
@@HomeCookinMTG For me it's contextual. When I see a player who has a neat jank dank is finally going off after losing game after game, sometimes I look at the control pieces in hand and on board and pretend they aren't there.
I want my friends to have fun and do the cool thing too. It's got me into trouble before though.
@@HomeCookinMTG Yeah, I understand. That really doesn't happen though in my case. The games might extend a cycle or so; but it's mainly just us selecting different lines of play at certain points in the game. Not just as simple as reserving threats/answers.
It'd be cool to see an episode of shuffle scuffle with a cube sometime. It sounds like a cool idea but nobody in my playgroup has ever made one so it'd be interesting see one at work!
I really want to get that into an episode one day!
Me first viewing the NN: hey this is a cool channel, I’ll sub
Me after learning of Amber: this channel must be protected at all costs
I love this comment
Personally, my favourite win conditions are overkill combat. I smile when I lose to it, I get excited for my opponent like "HOW MUCH DAMAGE DID YOU DO?!?!?!" it's like trying to get a new high score of arbitrary numbers. After that I personally like critical mass (specifically jank 5+ card combos) because I'm like "omg I didn't know these cards interacted that way! That's so cool!"
As far as winning goes, I only really like to win with critical mass combos and overkill combat. Winning with pure combat feels a bit sluggish, and I hate like the sheepish apology if I win with a combo cause I know how bad it feels.
So yeah personally more big splashy massive numbers and more jank combos!
I like the Jank as well!
If you love jank, you'll love toxrill
Math is for blockers.
"I attack with 64,000 scute swarms!"
This is really a rule 0 conversation. Infinite combos that are mana-cheap are high power, and don't belong in mid and lower power games.
In lower power, you play creatures (or another strategy like lifegain or enchantress) and you all see who overwhelms everyone first. Games go long and nobody goes off. Gg.
Mid is about building advantage, before someone snowballs and wins (sometimes by combat and sometimes by a janky combo). And I think that's a fun place to be.
High power is all about the interaction, especially the Fierce Guardianships and Force of Wills of the world, to stop people trying to combo and win. This is my favourite form of EDH, because it more resembles higher power 60 card formats, and is interactive and fast.
cEDH is high where everything is optimised, your deck is worth $10,000 (or is proxied), and you're now playing a different game altogether, essentially singleton vintage. I'm sure this would be fun if I had the budget.
Cube and limited can be fun, but I'd rather be allowed to deckbuild (which includes targeting a power level). It's the most fun part of the game IMHO.
I'm a big fan of critical mass combos. I usually like put in a complicated 3-4 card combo in my decks and make sure that the notable combo pieces have to be in a visible zone. And I'm never upset to see one across the table from me.
I think C.M. combos also encourage paying attention and reward people for learning more about the game, which is what makes magic fun... you're rewarded the more yoooooo learnin and think ahead. I mean who doesn't feel like a boss when you see a combo coming and have the perfect response?!
I love the "be the change you want to see in the world" in terms of magic. I love playing big goofy decks and I love seeing them too.
Always playing to win is such an important part of gameplay, but that doesn't mean I won't try to win with my 5.8 average cmc prismatic bridge deck or making a million mana rocks with osgir
I'm listening and I'm like "yeah, losing feels bad". The only feels not so bad lose was when I chained too many draw spells having thousand years storm and decked myself.
Losing in certain ways will make some people feel bad and that is ok
My favorite loss was when I bet I had more cards left in my draw heavy Glint-Horn deck then the Oloro player had life.
I was, in fact, wrong by 8 life. And Curiosity isn't a may 😀
This shows the importance of rule 0. But all the same, sympathizing with the friends in your playgroup is a key piece of good sportsmanship. This was a good watch. :)
NN talked up Grave Titan in a powerful context. What a time to be alive.
The main take away I got from this is that it's better to have a consistent pod or pods than going to an lgs. I might completely disagree with everything in this video, but so do the people I play with. So countering people's stuff, comboing of, and playing with thousands of dollars of proxied cards leads to fun games, not feel bad moments. Obviously there wouldn't be the same reaction if we branched out to other play groups
I love how Beezy referred to C.M combos as a Rube Goldberg machine. I run a Colfenor deck that feels exactly that way with my lower power playgroup. I have a bunch of ways to go infinite, but all af those ways require like, 5-6 cards. I always thought of the deck as a doomsday clock, but a R.G machine is what I will call it from now on.
Doomsday clock is a good way to put it as well. The thing that can be frustrating is if you are the only play with that Doomsday clock
I think you guys really hit the nail on the head with your tension = fun analogy. It very succinctly summarizes where I think almost all of the feels bad come from in commander games. When you think you are playing a fun battlecruiser game and someone drops a combo that has to be interacted with on the stack *cough* Thoracle *cough* and you look at your golgari commander and sigh, it can feel pretty bad. It's also not fun to bring a CEDH deck to a table, and have no one interact with your combo, or the stack, it takes all the tension and interest out of piloting the deck as well.
Regarding the tidbit: For better or for worse, COVID-19 responses have been politicized. I really like how you handled your story here. It didn't feel preachy on the one hand or apologetic on the other. Just "this is our lives, and this is what we're doing." The best aspect of the tidbits (IMHO) is that the audience gets to keep up with you guys, without being too far into your business.
This was a great video idea I appreciated hearing your opinions.
Also like both of your shirts 😂
These shirts are cool
@@NitpickingNerds very cool!
there is an amazing card thats just like craterhoof behemoth. overwhelming stampede. its on par with craterhoof in some instances.
It can be but requires going wide and tall, we do love that card
Triumph of the hordes is in the same boat depending on how your meta feels about infect.
Pathbreaker Ibex and God Eternal Rhonas are functionally Craterhoof in most circumstances.
got hit with an OS and monstrous onslaught in a mono green multani deck. now the owner wants to make a mono green tap deck because 50 damage is “too easy”
Good luck with what yall mentioned at the end of the video; hope things go well
Thanks for the well wishes much appreciated
the way I feel about Critical Mass Combos works along the lines of what y'all said with invalidating people's work. I think that if you've put in the work on your side of the battlefield but suddenly someone else just goes "okay I untap and I win", they didn't invalidate your work, you just didn't do the work that would interact with them. You could see everything very slowly coming together, you could stop it, but either because of draws or whatever else you didn't stop it, and that's a loss I'm willing to take.
Recently switched from MTGgoldfish to moxfield. Being able to playtest is great.
Also, I agree with Beezy on quick games. Combo wins allow us to shuffle up and play again. Maybe 1 long game during a play session is alright, but if you can win easily, do it and let's play another game.
Im the opposite if you want to play quick games play CEDH.
It is a tough line. I am on the side of a long swingy games from 30 to 60 minutes
Under 1 card wins. You guys should have mentioned Defense of the Heart. It's basically Tooth and Nail with suspend, on an enchantment. For four mana
I'd really love to listen to you guys talking about your commander cube for two hours straight. Really looking forward to test that.
Thanks guys for the content. I hope you are feeling well!!
I don't mind 40 life/ somewhat longer games. Gives me (and others) a chance to play more than just a few of my 100 cards. I do understand wanting to be able to end the game quickly enough to play again, but in my opinion, faster doesn't usually = funner
I love the philosophical edge to magic that you guys are putting out today! A super unique and useful video 🙏
I personally believe that combat based games require more brainpower to calculate optimal attackers/blockers. It also has the best political aspects.
I think they do make for the most interesting games as well
I have combat damage decks, but I think I’m more amused with my alternative win cons than I am the main one. 😂
I love using Stuffy Doll type creatures with Revenge of the Hunted or Lure effects to make all of an opponent’s creatures block it, and then swing with my other creatures. This also makes commander damage more feasible.
If you are in black I love to sacrifice them! I have a Zaxara deck where sacrificing big creatures to Jarad Golgari Lich Lord or Rite of Consumption does a lot of damage to everyone. Then I have a mutate deck that is fragile as far as creatures dying, but one mutate stack creature comes apart and counts for (typically) 2 or 3 creatures in the graveyard, so Lord of Extinction + Jarad is glorious. If Lord of Extinction wasn’t big enough to kill everyone outright I can mutate on top of Jarad to get the +1/+1 counters and swing at whoever is left (typically 1 player).
I love that stuffy doll idea so much!
I’m very much the same. But I’ve been playing board games for years and magic for 1. I don’t associate myself as a Timmy or a Johnny. I have decks that fall into critical mass or a Gruul deck that runs like 3 single target threat removal spells, because I always call it, “I am the threat” and it’s all about ramping and dropping bombs. All types have strengths and weaknesses. So I don’t get the feel bads really, because I play all styles.
I've recently added a batch of commanders to my cube and it was a lot of fun. I have combos in my cube, but I'm definitely thinking about cutting them because it's unfair to people who don't know the cube inside and out, and also doesnt signal people to just grab combo pieces and ignore synergy.
I hear decent things about moxfield, how does it compare to scryfall? That’s what I use to build and maintain my decks
I really like it, it shows you some really cool breakdowns based on color and mana value. It also lets you playtest, which can be really fun all by itself 😁
Idk if scryfall has this but moxfield allows you to tag cards so you can sort into custom groups. And you can tag a card globally (i.e. sol ring is always #ramp) or just for a deck (i.e. rite of replication makes #bigtokens in my brudiclad deck)
i think for deck building moxfield is much better. Scryfall is an amazing tool for research and looking up cards but not deck build IMO
Stay healthy boys! I would love to see a gameplay video of your commander cube drafted.
Why when we talk about winning with combat are we always saying that you have to deal 120 damage? there are 3 others at the table. and with commanders like Adeline, Galea, winota, Lathril. they want multiple combats. realistically you will need to deal 50-80 damage to win.
Well from a point of building and discussion you can't assume other players are gonna do damage for you. If you know your group and it has a lot of combat then you can but we are talking overall
My favorite win con was with my Tiamat beatdown, but it was done with burn damage! I managed to fake out someone's board wipe, then bring out Morophon, the Boundless while I had Fist of Suns out so every Dragon was free to cast.
Start out with Terror of the Peaks, then Scourge of Valkas, and with an infinite hand from reliquary tower, play a couple Dragon's from my hand, then play tiamat, tutor 5 Dragon's, play them all and burn damage my enemies until they lose. A very interesting burn combo that can be set up easily if someone isn't paying attention
I love when going infinite has backfired on you so many times that, when you do go infinite, you start picking numbers like 250 instead of 50million. Had a plan backfire on me and my mate gained 150million life with a Sangromancer once, never forgot...
I don't really agree with the 30 life proposition. If I have lower starting life, I know I have less time to impact the board. It would just lead to having faster decks (fast mana) and faster wincons (combos) with tutors back up to always have it.
A One-time 30 life commander game without modifying my deck would be interesting but I'd feel bad when I draw my Avenger of Zendikar :(
Oh man, my Chatterfang deck got me to slap someone with 528 damage a couple weeks ago, got left alone with a Skeletal Swarming, Parallel Lives, and Maskwood Nexus for a few turns, put down Chatter, made a load of tokens, swung for 78 damage, then 528 the next turn. Felt pretty damn cool. 😁
I enjoy building decks probably more than even playing the game lol. One thing I've noticed that's very fun is when a field domination deck goes against an unorthodox combo deck. Staring down an army? then tainted remedy and beacon of immortality to reverse heal them for their life total lol. However my viewpoint is probably different than many because I'm more used to 1v1
A lot of the guys that go to my lgs have really really high power decks getting really close to cedh, so ive taken a liking to a surprise Sage of Hours in my Ezuri, Claw of Progress deck.
I have developed a love for making decks with mixed win conditions so if one route is blocked off because of certain cards on the table, I have another path to take around it. My best example is my Beledros deck which of course does aristocrat things but there are also creatures and such in it that let me go the combat route if an opponent keeps removing my enchantments and artifacts. Going infinite is there as well, but it is not easy to pull it off fast and when it happens its obvious and doesn't drag out to playing a twenty minute turn which would not be fun for the other players. My first deck was far more focused and it really fell out of favor over time, a deck that is flexible and plays a bit different each game is WAY more fun.
When I built my decks I made one combo win deck one aggro beat down one board manipulation one mutate beat down and a mono white deck. I enjoy playing all of them. I also change each depending on rule 0. Paying attention to my opponents commander may decide which deck I pull out.
Video about "always playing to win" would be a great topic
With Beezy sick this week. Friday might be a solo Cherries rant on exactly that
I say “good sleeves” in my head whenever I hear dragon shield now
My favorite combo win was with echoing equation (backside of augmenter pugilist from strixhaven). Just turn 9 Tokens into omnath, locus of creation, hit 3 landdrops -boom 40 life, 40 mana and 40 damage in each opponents face. Best thing is that I never thought of that combo when I was building the deck.
I'm so glad I got 6 foil copies of craterhoof coming to me sometime in the next couple of weeks hopefully. I bought 3 foil copies of the most recent extra life secret lair because it helps out a children's hospital and nets me 6 copies of craterhoof, so I went from having 0 copies, to inevitably having 6 copies once it shows up in the mail. Lol... I can't wait.
Card is insanely strong!
Dude same! I have a Torrens deck that I build from Crimson Vow that’s waiting for mine to show up!
And my selfish purchase at least goes to a good cause as well. So as much as I don't like the predatory practices wotc employs, these extra life lairs have been a win win, both having something worth spending the price of it on within the drop, and helping sick kids. Extra life lairs benefitting children's hospitals is pretty cool. I only managed to snag two last time, but I got 3 this time, so I'm happy.
badass shirts guys!!! are those from INTO THE AM? great video really needed to go over this topic WIN CONDITIONS!! we need more lol. thanx
The way they describe commander legends is literally just the way my playgroup plays. I don’t think we ever have a game were we don’t have to be tactical about who to kill first. But that’s also because we don’t play infinite wincons.
Hope you guys get better soon, but not really…because now we get more quality videos
I love some good old combat
In most games its actually my only wincondition, just feels the most fair and rewarding way to win or even lose a game
The big difference to me between combos and critical mass is: Intention.
If someone's built their infinite combo deck, and designed it to get that combo ASAP, that can start to feel like solitaire. Commander is a slower format, it's a lot safer to be less competitive on board in many playgroups.
While critical mass is more just "I run a bunch of synergy. My cards are made to work with each other, and I got several of them at once.". You're still aiming to play and interact with the other player's decks. If you get all your synergistic pieces out at the same time, you probably win. But you're usually being more realistic and expecting to just get one or two and have a decent board.
Cube is usually not balanced because the cube constructors have prior knowledge of what is in the cube which gives them a massive advantage in both deck construction and gameplay. That said, playgroups can mitigate this by having everyone contribute cards or give everyone a list of cards in the cube with enough time to analyze prior to play. That isn't any less difficult that a rule 0 talk, or, as mentioned in the video, adjusting rules like life totals.
I don't mind 2-3 hr games as long as things are happening. It is slower but you get to learn each other's deck and everyone usually gets to do at least one huge cool move they were super excited to do. The best and worst game I've ever been in though was against Silverquill who had Nils, and I had a counters deck. The Silverquill player was too weak to attack anyone and the rest of us had too many counters on our creatures to be able to kill Silverquill. It was so fun seeing people get huge creatures (I got over 180 +1/+1 counters and trample on a single creature) but we all knew from the second Nils came out who would win. Sadly did have interaction but didn't draw any of it in time to remove Nils
I'm sad to hear you're quarantined. I wish you well!
Thanks for the nice words
I personally have a ton of fun playing Jazal Goldmane. He’s basically a worse craterhoof yet when you get the ability off it feels that good. I have an Emera deck and it’s mad fun to smash someone for 200.
Games do have to end. And I'm like Beezy. I will virtually play against anything you wanna throw at me; so long as its scaled to the other decks at the table.
I think its good to have a kill switch in every deck, like even if combo is your main wincon you still want a way to combo off if the game is grinding out too far. I think the main issue is you wanna make sure its as close to the pieces deserving a place in your deck for synergy reasons anyway. That usually reduces the feel bads to a minimum.
While I do enjoy some things more than others, I really will play against literally anything, but I do respect the mentality other people have of being resistant to playing games against certain wincons. It's a really deep topic!
@@NitpickingNerds it really is. My only real bug bear is unbalanced tables. I don't like people punching downwards, but ill otherwise give anything a go. I still get it though, spare time is limited, you want to spend it getting as much enjoyment as you can.
I've watched quite a lot of videos from you guys, cause you are awesome, but it seems i thought you were spikier than you actually are. i was trending towards building spikier decks for a while, but now have to say i dig the kind of magic you describe here. i'm still rather on the johnny side, liking cool synergies way more than haymakers and thus some combos on the jankier side are still cool with me.
was a cool video. it's wholesome to see how important the topic is for you.
My Galea Kindler of Hope deck is essentially aura voltron. Very low mv. Can be very aggressive, but I have two alt win cons. Squirrel Nest/ Earthcraft, Siona/ Shielded by faith. I have zero haste, except for Swift Foot Boots. Very aggressive, but it's so focused on auras. One good boardwipe and it's a tough climb back.
Having a solid plan to win is probably the hardest part of building a deck for me
I would love if you could record some real gameplay scenarios with discussions like these. I know most of the cards... but somehow i often have trouble imagining the impact of what you describe to 3 other players. It would be amazing if you could play some real games where stuff like this happened and use the footage to visualise the combos, splashy plays and interactions talked about in the video.
Excellent discussion btw.
Your point about assembling 4-5 pieces to making an infinite combo should feel okay to everyone because the table allowed it/didn't interact is the same argument I have for craterhoof. It's only good if your board presence is already large and creatures are the easiest killable permanent in the game.
I think my previous comment was flagged because it included an external link but I built a Commander Legends cube for under $200 that accommodates 8 players. It is really fun and it avoids a lot of the issues people have with EDH as a format (rule zero, bans, staples, power levels, etc.).
Both of your shirts are incredible!
To me the most invalidating thing after a long close game is Torment of Hailfire for 23. I don't think someone comboing out when there has been a lot of interaction between players feels bad.
The "I have a bunch of mana so I win by playing this one card that in no way synergizes with my deck" just suck. Expropriate in blue, Tooth and Nail in green, and Torment of Hailfire in black. Worst ways to end a hard fought game.
C.M. combo in Magda I discovered. Magda, brazen outlaw, 5 dwarves, smuggler's copter, relentless assault. Never knew the combo was in the deck until all those pieces hit the board! I found that it was pretty fair lol
That is so many cards lol
My favorite win of all time was in zedru the greathearted. I pulled off a transcendence donate kill.
That is what the kids call a spicy meatball
Fell better boys. Let's get some games going on spelltable and have your discord go NUTS!
Is there a Nitpicking Nerds video about the most fun combat oriented decks? Some low-/mid-budget suggestions for a four player group? Which groupings of 4 decks ended in the most fun matches for you guys?
Casting a 2 mana Hydra Omnivore from Gargos' reduction, giving it boots or Concordant and swinging w/ Berserk and another pump is my favorite
Idk. I've played EDH for so long that to me a loss is just that. Over the .. almost 15 years I've probably lost more games than other people I play with now have participated in at all. You just scoop up and try again. Being sad about losing, regardless of the way you lost, in a game where you're supposed to win 25%~ of the time in a four person pod is ridiculous. Not everyone feels like their turns didn't matter because they always do. Not everyone is sad when a combo goes off. Some of us aren't that emotionally invested in a game where a loss state is more common than a winning one. It really is as simple as shuffle a stack of card board and try again.
Well your feelings and response to losing is 100% valid so is the guy who feels like the game was not fun because of combos. We all view the game differently.
A big source of critical mass combo is Enchantress strategies, if I get to land 3 enchantresses and an Earthcraft the game is basically over, problem is Enchantresses are eminently removable. The thing I like about critical mass combos is that they are usually flashy and big and use lots of fun cards and I just like it when people do flashy combos, one of my fondest Magic memories is when a player Mindslavered me and took my Enchantress Storm list, killed the other two players with Opalesence and decked me with Enchantress draw.
My lathril deck is definitely a token generating go wide deck. Beastmaster ascension, triumph of the hordes, craterhoof, overwhelming stampede, etc. BUT, it cast Torment of Hailfire for an X of 76 last time i played it on turn 5, and runs altar of dementia in case of board wipes. Its definitely worth it to run alternates to combat wins, even if combat is the MAIN goal. 🤷♂️
Just like my Krenko runs impact tremors, goblin bombardment, purphoros, etc. Its a ton of fun and gets around other token board states and propoganda style effects
last night i played against a deck with gyruda and after they cast it they managed to clone and/or flicker it like 4 times over the course of the next turn or two and put 1/5th of my library in my graveyard. a couple turns later i played praetor's counsel and now had 25+ cards in my hand and on the next turn i played the great aurora and everyone had to shuffle all their permanents and hand into library and draw that many cards then put all lands in play. i drew 37 cards, twice as many as the next player and three times as the person with the least and ended up wth 11 lands in play and a hand size of 25 for pretty much the rest of the game.
i ended it 2 turns later with a dungrove elder enchanted with indomitable might that was up to 33/33 because i had 27 lands in play. knocking 33 life off the player with the most life and then i cast squall line for 20 dmg to each player through some shenanigans with 2 nyxbloom ancients and a helm of the host that i stole wth masterwork of ingenuity.
I like rule 0, but I think the only time it should be applicable is for power level. I don’t like if I’m the reason someone doesn’t have fun, but at the end of the day I want to have fun too. I have a chatterfang deck that people HATE because I get a ton of squirrels and end up overwhelming stampeding. Kill chatterfang and that doesn’t happen. Or board wipe. Losing feels bad. If you don’t like losing then try to build a counter for whatever’s beating you.
Guess I went a different way with the "feelsbads". My playgroup didn't like my simic mill deck so I built a Chulane deck. I get to run my mill deck more now. Lol
I think the difference between a combo win and a combat win is the opportunity for interaction is limited against the combo, whereas most combat wins you can see coming. A buddy of mine has an animar deck and ancestral statue is how he wins 90% of the time. It’s a 2-card combo with a 1turn window. His other piece is his commander.
i mean if that’s how he wins 90 percent of the time hold interaction and plan accordingly
Next time you guys play commander cube, try ignoring color identity. It makes the draft a lot more open-ended and not so much on rails.
Also, an entire episode devoted to commander cube would be interesting.
Though technically not a win condition considering it doesn't technically kill people on its own right, but you haven't lived until you've become the villain of a commander game and Yosei locked everyone else. In my Ghave deck, i use ashnod's altar, yosei, and gift of immortality to lock down each opponent right before their turn begins. Then i can basically win at my leisure as the only things i really have to look out for are 0-1 mana spot removal.
That sounds awful lol
@@NitpickingNerds Whenever you two decide to do another grading video, i'd be curios about two cards i think are criminally underplayed. Gift of Immortality and Children of Korlis, a bit niche, but any aristocrat/graveyard based strategy in white should consider them IMO.
Wow, at 18:40.
I've been watching the Nitpicking Nerds for several years off and on, and I think the one "nit" I've had with this channel has been exactly this: y'all have been grading cards, talking about strategies, etc., that were often through a combo-centric lens.
Here we are 2022 and I want to say: THANK YOU JOE CHERRIES. What you say matches my own commander experience and philosophy. The first rule of the game is to have fun, and a puzzle piece that's engineered around being difficult to interact with, shutting down everyone's game at their own expense...that's not exactly enjoyable, and puts me as a player in a rough position. Am I a poor sport if I scoop? The alternative is sitting there watching it play out, and pretend to like it?
Commanders Quarters did a recent-ish episode of a game where they took their most combo-y decks and played them against one another. It was fascinating to watch it "go off", but painful to watch it in slow motion--nobody had a chance, everyone knew it, no one scooped. I don't know for how long it played out. I don't know if it was to prove a point, and it looked like everyone at the table had a good time, but I just remember thinking: in my own gaming group, once we saw the combo pieces in place, everyone would have scooped.
I appreciate the evolution of this channel and look forward to you folks rating cards in the future not just on how combo-y or powerful they are, but just fun in general. Speaking of which, I actually included Grave Titan in a deck recently and...hey, it was fun. If I ever met you in person I'd want you to sign my Grave Titan.
Thanks guys!
Only time infinite combos are enjoyable is when you’re playing in a playgroup that runs them consistently. I only recently got back into magic and started playing commander like a year and a half ago. From day one playing precons, I lost game after game. It drove me to wanna be able to beat them so I tried and tried just building strong and it wasn’t enough. I put infinites in and now I actually get dubs fairly consistently (one per night is average.
They also play a lot of stax/extra turn stuff so in effect I’m building stax urza. Gonna be a miserable deck to play against and to pilot but that’s how ya beat a stax/combo deck
your t-shirts are super cool - love them
Weird, i like all of the things apparently people don't like. On my side or the opponent's side. I like the "interaction check" moment, if we have it, use it, else we are onto the next game. But the rule 0 discussion is required for that to be a reasonable thing i suppose.
A bunch of rooms I see on Cockatrice and Untap : No infinite/stax/mld
Me, with my Elesh Norn, Mazirek, and Bosh decks : **cries unloved in corner**
I'm surprised HP win-cons like Felidar Sovereign or Test of Endurance or even cards that deny win/loss like Platinum Angel were never mentioned.
Felidar Sovereign and Test of Endurance are just slow combos. Platinum Angel only slows down the game
WE kinda lumped them 1 card wins but they could of been their own thing
I know it's janky af, but I love doing gain life/opponent lose life combos. I used to run ink shield as a surprise hay maker, but not enough combat lol
Love when we get a hear about the commander cube , Will there ever be another dedicated video for the cube you guys built ?
We have done one video on it and the philosophy behind it, but I'm not sure there's a huge demand for like a full breakdown. Although I DO want to have it on Shuffle Scuffle one of these days
@@NitpickingNerds I did see that one ! I was kinda hinting at some game play with the cube ;)
Fingers crossed!!!
I would like to point out, that budget craterhoof is actually groundshaker giant, +3/+3 and trample
I have had a time when Expropriate was cast, resolved, and still lost…it was glorious.
xD
My groups often play a lot of the precons without any upgrades mostly because they offer balanced games and no bad feelings.
I feel those decks are built for combat and critical mass interaction.
Anyone else agree or disagree?
I play a lot of precon-inter-games on cockatrice with my friends and the feeling is shared! Fun and equal game interactions!
This is the issue I had with casual excluding critical mass combos and combat which feels totally fine.
someone else always ends up playing a two card combo or they make infinite mana and it felt like our 10 turn game was pointless. Or I do the same and then they day dude power down your deck.
CEDH has almost zero Toxic games.
Just an opinion I would like to share with anyone who always gets pubstomped.
first time i ever cast expropriate was in my mizzix copies deck. i cast it, then copied it 4 times and everyone just quit. i love that card.
it is a really strong but annoying card
I feel like the first 2 decks are purely from a perspective that dislikes combat but I do agree craterhoof is insane but a single counterspell or destruction spell is the counter it isnt easy to get onto the board at higher levels because nobody is gonna let that hit the field even to trigger an ETB
so i think why people dislike combos boils down to the amount of points you need to earn to win. damage based things like attacking and burn need to earn around 40*players /2 points to win (60 for 3 players), other players damage each other so i assume that the winning player has to do halve the damage to be the one who's winning, while mill needs to earn 100-turns-17 *players points to win (219 for 3) and infect has to get 10*players. now combo has to get basically only x points where x is the amount of combo pieces no matter the amount of opponents of turns or anything else, also holding true for cards like triumph of the hoard being essentially a mass damage "combo"
so damage has to do 20 times as much as combo. this also isn't counting in that if you attack to win you can't just play all your creatures and that wins but you have to attack to get to your win con while combos simply have to play their win conditions.
This is a strange way to view it but I like it
I like overwhelming stampede more than craterhoof... I think that is the +x and trample equal to your highest power... that's the one I am thinking of
My Prosper has a C.M. Combo in Sensei's Top, Harnfel, & Marionette Master. Weaponized top spins until my opponents die, entirely interruptible while it's piecing together or when it gets rolling, i even have 3 other options for MM that are slower, but the important detail is that it Can fail
This sounds very Beezy lol
I feel like good synergy can turn into a CM combo. Like you guys said. If you let a board develope enough, you're gonna lose.
Agreed but when only one player builds that way it can be problematic. The key is being on the same footing
@@NitpickingNerds I mean every deck should have synergy. It's not really an argument against critical mass and more for power level/rule 0 conversation. Like yeah, a deck with more synergy is going to win against a precon. But any decks above that should have synergy. Even with minimal synergy, you can hit a critical mass if there is no interaction.
@@NitpickingNerds My point really is not that critical mass isn't a win con, it definitely can be but it's not one as intentional as one card win cons or two or three card dedicated combos. It's something that the vast majority of decks will have if left alone for long enough.
Surprisingly good video. Thanks, guys. I think combat should be played with new players too.
Feelings are undoubtedly important in Commander. It's the social format. But also, it's a format of Magic the Gathering, a game that has winners and losers. You know what feels like invalidating every game action I've taken? Losing to anything. Losing to anything feels bad, right? After a 2 hour game, if you die to regular salt-of-the-earth combat, you still feel bad. Losing is losing, and the impulsive reaction of feeling bad is totally natural, but it IS a game. You have to choose, win or lose, to have fun. I went and played at my LGS last night, my second time ever. I lost each game and I had a blast. I was in demanding positions, or getting creamed by Tergrid, and I still had fun.
Your feelings are valid, and deserve to be discussed, but its the nature of a game to lose. The sooner you find the way to wiggle past the bad feels and find the fun in Losing and winning, nothing can make Commander less fun.