Caitlyn X VI: Gay as Hell or Just Friends?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ธ.ค. 2021
- This got released at 12 am by mistake and I'm blaming that if this vid tanks lmao. Hope y'all enjoy the vid though!
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“She’s rich, she’s tall, and has breathing parents”
I-
About the parents part... Is one enough to be on that list?
Can’t breathe? You have that in common with vi’s parents
That was when I hit subscribe. XD
BRUCE WAYNE
Or a Tony Stark reference. Cant tell
Jinx took that last part personally.
Jinx: "FUCK THE POLICE!!!"
Vi: "I'm trying to, okay?!"
Beat me to it.
Damn, good joke
Huzzah! A woman of quality!
Jinx: What?
Vi: What?
Caitlin: 😳
Jayce: 😏
Silco: 🙄
I wish I came up with this joke XOX
"She's the opposite of Vi. Rich, tall, with breathing parents" OK DAMN
Guess we know who's his favorite
better change that to parent soon
I mean he ain't pulling any punchs
@@whitecat5782 oh god.
That part took me out
“punched your neurodivergent sister in the face”
HIT WAYYY TOO HARD
I KNOW DAMN
So did vi 💀
@@ratking7219 I hit translate and it said "so we did", I have a feeling Jinx is going to get punched, thrice.
That neurodivergent sister just killed her father and 2 siblings lol
If anyone unironically thinks they're "Just Friends" they're currently in Denial
your implying that they weren't in denial to begin with?
I’d offer them copium but let’s face it: the Viktor/Jayce shippers need it more.
Add onto that with the writers basically without straight up saying it that there chemistry was 100% intentional, but even then they’d still be in denial
“Fuck the police!”
Vi later that day to powder/jinx
“So guess who I fucked last night!!?
“Oh, who?”
“Captan cupcake!”
“….”
“What?”
“You fucked….. a police woman?!,”
“But I thought we said fuck the the police”
Stares at vi like she’s a dumb bitch.
“Oh you didn’t mean liter”
“Literally! Yeah! I didn’t think you would fuck that police women!”
“.ahhhh.”
“Jeez I called you two girlfriends as a insane joke but Jeez vi”
“But she’s hot!,!, a hot cupcake… with boobs, lips like a steak and ale pie and”
Stares at vi in disapproval
“I mean she’s rich ok?!?! She’s also a cupcake, extremely sweet”
Continues to stares
“Ok, I get it I’ll stoping seeing her, ok!!?”
“Why would you do that?”
“What?”
“Why? She’s hot isn’t she??!”
“Yeah….”
“So fuck her!”
“Oh ok, but i thought you dislike me!”
“Nah, good for you sis! She’s a great shot and I can respect that!”
“Oh so I can fuck the police women?”
“Yes! But kill any other police, ok!? This is the only exception, ok?”
“Oh thanks!”
Catlin comes out of the closet next to them.
“So I can come out now?”
“Yes cup cake”
Jinks mouth goes agape, “right, I’m gonna go genocide”
Jinks starts to walk away
“…….”
Catalin and vi, “wait, noooo!”
"MY WAIFUS CAN'T BE GAY!!!" -LoL players apparntly
Vi: we are like oil and water!
Me, a man of science: Love is an emulsifier!
I said the same thing when I watched it!
Woah, great pfp, what's it from?
Love is egg
me: it's ok take a shower together and ad some soap plus some friction and you good to go
I too read the stormlight archive
Harry: "Sorry Cho, I prefer gingers."
Cho: "Apparently so do I."
HELP LMFAO
Chiaaaaleee 😂
goooold
LMAOOOO
Gwen and Cho’s Sexcellent Adventure
vi really went from "fuck the police" to "fuck the police"
damn i love character progression
and lesbians
"And there's no homewrecker in sight."
Well, Jinx is certainly trying her best.
Idk if Cait's her type though and Vi would be a pretty big yikes.
@Nuva•Nephri•Hezzu don't worry. =)
I got what was meant, I was just being obtuse for the sake of the joke.
@@willowarkan2263 "...anyone else hearing Sweet Home Alabama?"
AYEE YMIR
@@willowarkan2263 I'm screaming lol
"After nearly killing a man in Act 1, Cait decided to make a career out of it by joining the enforcers."
This man has no chill😭💀
*My memory is a bit fuzzy, who did she almost kill in Act 1?*
@@AzNightmare seconding
Girlboss
@@dianafelizia6141 *who??*
@@AzNightmare Jayce. The implication is that Cait and Jayce's talk after his expulsion from the academy kinda pushed him towards his suicide attempt.
“There is no home wrecker in sight.”
Jinx quite literally nukes Caitlyn’s home
Caitlyn does not live in the council's room??
@@tintincruz8660She loves in Piltover.
😂
@@a_moth5584 damn right the sex scene with Vi is gonna be in her room alright
Whereas I'm like, wait - if Mel's out of the picture now...
Vi: “topside always finds a way to screw us”
Caitlyn: challenge accepted
Who's the top tho 🗿
most definitely Vi. But I feel like Caitlyn could be a switch@@doge99-ri4tl
@@doge99-ri4tl I hope they settle this by Rock, Paper, scissors
@@user-pi6qr7zm7mboth keep on picking scissors tho
@@wolfiegames1572 how, it's not like they read each others minds
Fun Fact that someone pointed out to me!
When Jinx does her little silver platter trick, the flash of Caitlyns face that Vi sees in her mind has been slightly changed from the original scene to make her look more flirty and pretty. (Eyes wider and lips fuller)
Vi had already started viewing her through that lense by that point.
Do a side-by-side comparison and it's pretty obvious what the animator were going for. Heh.
What episode and timestamp is this?
@@RFX91 Episode 8 bed scene vs episode 9 ending when Jinx is about to lift up the silver platter to show, what Vi assumed to be, Caitlyn's head.
anyone who wants a side by side, there already are some posted or r/arcane
“Fuck the police!”
Vi later that day to powder/jinx
“So guess who I fucked last night!!?
“Oh, who?”
“Captan cupcake!”
“….”
“What?”
“You fucked….. a police woman?!,”
“But I thought we said fuck the the police”
Stares at vi like she’s a dumb bitch.
“Oh you didn’t mean liter”
“Literally! Yeah! I didn’t think you would fuck that police women!”
“.ahhhh.”
“Jeez I called you two girlfriends as a insane joke but Jeez vi”
“But she’s hot!,!, a hot cupcake… with boobs, lips like a steak and ale pie and”
Stares at vi in disapproval
“I mean she’s rich ok?!?! She’s also a cupcake, extremely sweet”
Continues to stares
“Ok, I get it I’ll stoping seeing her, ok!!?”
“Why would you do that?”
“What?”
“Why? She’s hot isn’t she??!”
“Yeah….”
“So fuck her!”
“Oh ok, but i thought you dislike me!”
“Nah, good for you sis! She’s a great shot and I can respect that!”
“Oh so I can fuck the police women?”
“Yes! But kill any other police, ok!? This is the only exception, ok?”
“Oh thanks!”
Catlin comes out of the closet next to them.
“So I can come out now?”
“Yes cup cake”
Jinks mouth goes agape, “right, I’m gonna go genocide”
Jinks starts to walk away
“…….”
Catalin and vi, “wait, noooo!”
Another good thing about that scene to me is Vi in no way denied Jinx referring to Cait as her girlfriend lol.
"Cupcake"
"What about us?"
"I paid your girlfriend a visit"
Thank you for coming to my TED talk😌
This is my like, since it's at 420
Yea, these things really dont mean much.
Vi calls everyone cupcake, its in the canon lore, Men, women, children... even criminals shes interrogating.
"What about us" can just as well be a friend thing.
"I paid your girlfriend a visit" is *exponentially* more used in sarcastic fashion, in a situation like this its way more of a dig than a statement of fact, besides its Jinx saying it, something she cant possibly know for a fact which means it confirms nothing.
I think these things have been left ambiguous on purpose.
Riot is basically owned by the Chinese government.
A dictatorship that prosecutes gay people.
They know the identity politics crap is big in the west so the will play both sides.
Hinting at it but never actually confirming anything and leaving it ambiguous.
This way they can say "we never said they were gay" while letting all the people who circle their entire existence around shipping imaginary characters in games and movie believe they did say it.
And you keep falling for this bs tactic every time.
The genshin community is the same but even worse.
"WOW SHE TOUCHED HER SHOULDER! 1000% CONFIRMATION OF HOMO YAAAY!"
(Genshin is also a Chinese game btw)
At least in Arcanes case there its reasonable to think they might be gay even tho these examples you gives means little to nothing.
The body language speaks infinitely more than anything actually spoken to this being a same sex relation.
@@F1rstWorldNomaD If you want to make the argument that "Riot would never make a gay couple!!"... Boy, do I have some news for you. There's already been 1 (Leona and Diana). If you read their canonical short story "Rise With Me", Leona asks Diana to a dance, and they kiss.
@@F1rstWorldNomaD The company who created Genshin Impact has created canonically LGBTQ+ characters in their other games Honkai Impact 3rd and Gun Girls Z
u can argue with the "what about us" being about friends, but the response "wasn't meant to be" just blows said argument away lmao. no one says that to anyone that's just a friend, or even a close friend.
What I love about Arcane? They're not afraid to show the ugly.
Caitlyn is still model quality, no doubt. But there's definitely "imperfections" as pointed out in the video. Tooth gap, bags under eyes, sometimes her eyes being bloodshot.
A quality not taken away with snot, saliva, puke, and blood in the show. It's tiny details that some may even overlook, even if they're not consciously making the decision to be model perfect, but it's little touches like it that make the series so much more real.
just saying, in the brazilian dub when jinx says “i payed your girlfriend a visit this morning”, the world girlfriend (which could be understood as “girl friend”) is translated to “namorada” and that’s ALWAYS a romantic title in portuguese!
And even in the english subtitles "girlfriend" is written as a single word.
Sinceramente, não tem pra onde fugir 😆
@@Let_Toons YES HAHAH elas são um casal e pronto
Same here in Portugal.
Wonder what the spanish version says because there is a clear difference XD Novia ( girlfriend
@@90sDRgirl the spanish subtitles say novia
me: " I wish everyone did such casual signs of affection with their friends."
As someone who does, I can confirm, it's awesome
@@1234kalmar same There's no sexual tension there is letting them know that i emotionally do give a shit for em no matter how sarcastic I am
As an aro, yeah..
“Fuck the police!”
Vi later that day to powder/jinx
“So guess who I fucked last night!!?
“Oh, who?”
“Captan cupcake!”
“….”
“What?”
“You fucked….. a police woman?!,”
“But I thought we said fuck the the police”
Stares at vi like she’s a dumb bitch.
“Oh you didn’t mean liter”
“Literally! Yeah! I didn’t think you would fuck that police women!”
“.ahhhh.”
“Jeez I called you two girlfriends as a insane joke but Jeez vi”
“But she’s hot!,!, a hot cupcake… with boobs, lips like a steak and ale pie and”
Stares at vi in disapproval
“I mean she’s rich ok?!?! She’s also a cupcake, extremely sweet”
Continues to stares
“Ok, I get it I’ll stoping seeing her, ok!!?”
“Why would you do that?”
“What?”
“Why? She’s hot isn’t she??!”
“Yeah….”
“So fuck her!”
“Oh ok, but i thought you dislike me!”
“Nah, good for you sis! She’s a great shot and I can respect that!”
“Oh so I can fuck the police women?”
“Yes! But kill any other police, ok!? This is the only exception, ok?”
“Oh thanks!”
Catlin comes out of the closet next to them.
“So I can come out now?”
“Yes cup cake”
Jinks mouth goes agape, “right, I’m gonna go genocide”
Jinks starts to walk away
“…….”
Catalin and vi, “wait, noooo!”
Im a touchy person and the majority of my friends hate touch so im lonelyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
"her name means 5"
her name means 6 my dude. check your roman numerals.
Lol I thought that at first also. He intentionally says it wrong along with a list of other things
Well thats part of the whole math joke he was making tho
Both wrong, it is the Latin for 'force'.
Hmmm... if you spell it...
*V* and i. Not I as a capital letter.
So its, fivei
Pretty sure someone calls her Violet in episode 3
This is a good ship. Its not forced. Its slow, gentle and it isnt rushed. I actually want them to get to together and yes, I want a kiss on screen.
Who doesn't? (Stupid homophobes don't count, ofc) And we are actually promised a "friendly kiss" between them. Fortunately for us, I simply can't believe that this kiss is going to be on the forehead or cheek, bc.... have you seen the sexual tension between those two?
@@athena8335 I know right? They need a proper snog on screen.
Tbh when I first saw Caitlyn and Jayce I thought they'd be doing a cliché story arc with them (friends to lovers). I was quite shocked at the amount of sexual tension she and Vi had, it was actually quite refreshing
a relationship between a minor (14-16) with an adult male would not be cliché, but abusive
@@bml9783 ..Caitlyn doesn't look only 16.
@@rappingbeaniedog347 in the first act she was 16
@@bml9783 broooo she looks 14
@@bml9783they never say her age in the show. My headcannon ages?
Act 1: Caitlin 15, Vi 16, Jayce 24, Powder 9-10
Acts 2-3: Caitlin 22, Vi 23, Jayce 31, Jinx 16-17
These ages and a 7 year jump just make the most sense to me. Allows for everyone's mental development into who they are now, visually makes sense for each character's design and physical development, allows time for the city to change and for hextech to settle in as a new normal, etc.
Some lines from the games
Miss Fortune: "Vi, i should've brought flowers"
VI: "ha ha, try cupcakes"
Miss Fortune: "hows your uptight sheriff?"
Vi: "Shes still got a sweet tooth for bad cops"
One of Caits death lines, "Tell Vi that I...."
"tell vi that i....... really appreciated her friendship..."
@@Zekentaru I just spat my drink out 😂😂😂
It’s the graves death animation all over again.
YOUR uptight sheriff? 😳😳😳
“Tell vi that i…. Love her work ethics”
The tender cheek touch after Vi's story about her and Powder making up monsters is all the confirmation I need.
Everything else is just tightening the bolts on the *SS "But you're so sweet...like a cupcake"*
▪"What about us?" asked with clear romantic undertones. You don't just ask that if you're friends.
▪"I paid your girlfriend a visit" Even the schizophrenic crazy girl knows what's up
▪Literally that entire shower scene
I see a lot of people sexualizing that shower scene, sometimes jokingly and sometimes not. I personally don't think that was the intention, but at the same time, it's still such a romantically coded moment. She's filled with sadness and regret at the idea of never seeing Vi again, and the physical intimacy of her "nakedness" is so symbolic of those raw emotions that she can't suppress or hide. It feels like Vi is the first person Caitlyn has felt such a strong connection with, so the rejection hit her hard. 🥺
@@brennakingsbury9657 Yeah it really struck me actually how well they managed to make the shower scene romantic, but non-sexual. Despite several camera angles of a hot, wet naked woman, it just felt *raw*.
@@emdivine
That's a great description: romantic but not sexual in nature. It's raw and - as people said above - she cannot hide or deny the feelings, hence she's out in the open. Aka naked and exposed. That's how clear and raw her feelings are.
@@brennakingsbury9657 that lip bite though...🙈
@Malin Hazer Yeah, that lip bite is more than half of why people keep thinking that, lol. She's trying not to cry, but it's an odd choice. I wonder if the animators have any regrets on that one...
"Shes the opposite, she's rich tall, with breathing parents."
THE GASP I LET OUT.
The “you’re hot cupcake” scene literally gave me butterflies and made my jaw drop
It's interesting how the game character designs just end up looking like lifeless dolls, with the exact same evil-eyed smirk facial expression. Meanwhile the Arcane characters look like actual people. Instantly more relatable.
yeah, this vision just ... shocks the view of things in the game! But, we can't help that in the game they are basically the same movements again, again and again so yes it kinda makes us see the characters as dolls now we've seen them more "alive", I think so many people are agreeing with your comment
I was super impressed to notice most the characters have asymmetrical faces and their faces always have them, it wasn't just lazy animation or continuity issues. they went out of their way for each character to have flaws like real people
@@mischr13 Flaws? They looked regular
@@kingexplosionmurderfuckoff9376 well, yeah, cuz regular people have asymmetrical faces. a lot of artists draw faces with both sides being a mirror image of each other and it looks weird (consider disney princesses. their faces are perfectly symmetrical and they look less human). often if a character is drawn asymmetrical it's cuz the artist messed up and didn't notice, but in this show each characters particular facial asymmetry is in every shot, meaning the artists did it on purpose to make them look more like real people. it's awesome attention to detail
There's more chemistry between Vi and Caitlyn than in Singed laboratory
okay , this one is amazing i'm gonna tell it to alllll my friends X)
thank you :)
Hahahah loll nice one!
@L D but their lab is more of a tech and magic and stuff. Singed IS FULL of chemicals
Can we all just appreciate for a second how freaking hard it is to say "singed's"???
Try it!! It's impossible!!!!!
@@violetsmith8693 why are you so right
There was way more intimacy in their quick little goodbye hug on the bridge than 30 minutes worth of Jayce/Mel scenes
I think that's deliberate, too
It's pretty heavily implied that at least early on, Mel is just manipulating Jayce, or seeing it as part of the game she's been playing. I think the moment she starts to be more interested is when he opens up to her about his concerns with Viktor, which is something she wasn't expecting. Her childhood was full of everything needing to be shows of force or power, and she's taken those lessons into a more subtle arena with politics, but she isn't used to anyone willingly being vulnerable with her. Jayce surprised her, and she shares something vulnerable with him in return, and I think that's where she finally sees him as more than just a useful political tool.
@@DarthRayjyes, great analysis. Nothing in this show is simple.
"Vi's life pretty much starts at rock bottom... Before free-falling into the Earth's core" LMAO
Vi is average height, cait is just a giraffe. Jayce is like 6'5, which begs the questionhow fucking big is Mother Medarda??? Are Noxus and Freljord full of 7ft tall metahumans?
God mother medarda can crush me
@@MB-ux9me if the council room didnt explode, i would be fully convinced that mother merdarda crushed the bomb with her thighs or jayces dummy thicc ass clapped the bomb and it reduced to lesser than atoms.
Yes......... I suppose?
I mean Freljordians have a living legend strong man who uses a magical door as a shield and he is taller than said door when it is supposed to be a door from the Howling Abyss (which is a ravine with a castle in it) so I think yeah
LOL Jayce is def not 6'5. The animators of the show intentionally made Cait shorter so the scenes can blend better together. One of the animators said that Cait and Jayce are around the same height. Jayce is def above 6' foot but just not that tall. IIRC Jayce and Cait are both supposed to be 6'
I like to think that despite the time jump Jinx still knows Vi better than anyone else, so when she sees how her sister is interacting with this other girl she *knows* they're not just friends.
Jinx has way too much IQ for her own good.
Jinx is a total genius. She just looks at stuff and figures it out. Totally insane by the end of the show but brilliant.
I mean... She was probably the only one who knew Vi's sexual orientation.
@@lucianofrancesco4742 She probably knew and probably Mylo and Klaggor. They were all pretty tight.
@@lucianofrancesco4742 in lol world things like sexual orientation are not that big of a deal, it's a world without discrimination, so it's very likely that nobody really cared if she liked girls or not lmao (I wish I lived there 🤡)
The Caitlyn.shower scene is the most 'down bad' shit i've seen in a while
Down horrendous
Their just friends
@@nelzelpher7158 the writers literally stated oterwise but ok
@@nelzelpher7158 how could you say such a thing
"As the third worst company in gaming gave the French a chance to make a show about Korea's national pastime."
The amount of fact that is in this statement is amazing and also making me choke with laughter.
HI! What is Korean pastime , I do not understand the reference??
@@lakaperse6995 A joke about how many Koreans play League of Legends, I assume
Yes yes yes to the height difference!!! Totally agree! There’s just something about the stronger one being shorter that gets me every! Single! Time!!!
my lanky femme ass is living for it omg
this is a thing, seriously
its the heels bro
@@ijornhribrudkrvir Same same same same
Vi’s taller though
6:34 "The writers CLEARLY wanted to give someone a heart attack, which they PROBABLY succeeded."
Oh, boy, did they succeed 😧😵
Yup
VI ain't in to "D"
they succeed everytime i watch that scene-
I laughed real hard on that kabedon
6:33 very interesting type of pant the women was wearing 🤔
@@praeweee you mean none?
"She showed me how it really is down there."
Friendship goals!
LMAOOOO
True power of friendship 😁 At least she got priorities strait.
@@alesksander only the priorities.
To anyone who says there’s nothing there to suggest they’re romantically involved, if one of them was a dude, you’d have no doubt they’re an item.
Homophone time:
"I am a male, I do gaze."
"I am a male, I do gays."
Wait- I thought he said gays
as a french girl, this is what i firstly understood :')
@@meloettafg it’s gaze, because he was just talking about “the male gaze” which is a saying for when media is designed specifically for men to feel attracted.
@@mrybird4044 it’s more of a subconscious part of filmmaking. It’s not “designed for men to be attracted to”
@@thomasffrench3639 it’s both, may be subconscious sometimes, but the function follows the same path, prioritizing female character’s worth based on male approval.
If one group always benefits in a situation, that’s rarely a accident.
Biggest problem with the Vi and Caitlin ship is definitely the in-laws.
Caitlin’s parents aren’t likely to approve of there daughter dating a street rat former criminal. Assuming Caitlin still has parents in season 2.
And the last surviving member of Vi’s family, Jinx. Is likely to skip straight to the “till death do they part,” phase of the relationship. So some prissy piltover doesn’t take her sister.
Oh! You don't have to worry about parents, they won't be sticking around...both of them 😁
good thing they will be squared away soon enough
@@mukamuka0 wasn’t it just her mom the got sploded though? Her dad seemed a bit more chill than her mom when she snuck into her room with vi, maybe he wouldn’t mind
I actually don’t think her parents would be the problem in season 2, I think not having one of them will be the problem
The "go after her" look from her mom in the council scene tho...
I'm a middle aged straight dude. I can't think of the last time I felt invested in fictional character romances. (outside of some novels) I feel absolutely personally invested in a lesbian relationship more than any relationship I can think of. It's also fucking weird in that everything about this show blows me away. There is shit hiding in damn near every scene that is interesting that I didn't notice on the fifth watch through. (I didn't know, until your video, that Caitlyn has a top hat on the coatrack in her bedroom.) I've also watched this show so many times more than 5. I is literally in masterpiece in my opinion. To the point where I kind of feel bland about other shows.
I feel you on the Arcane withdraw
Vi: "but you're so sweet, like a cupcake"
me: wright that down, right that down!
the amount of times i had to pause because I was laughing uncontrollably during your breakdown of Vi😭😭😭 "never skipping arm day", "they'll give you a black eye just for taking a bath", "powering through on nothing but rage and great hair"😂😂😂 "Vi got gains and tatts"
Lol Cait's intro "she's rich, tall with breathing parents"💀💀"Cait is the thirsty one in this relationship"
In conclusion, they gay as hell and we all ship them😂😭
riiight ! XD
I CANT BREATHE!!!🤣🤣🤣
Ikr I enjoyed the hell outta this vid
Actually, they are attracted to each other but also really good friends. This makes this feel more real to me since it's not just that they find each other hot(though they do) but actually care about each other as people and are there for each other. It really makes me look forward to season two since Jinx's actions could result in Caitlyn's mother getting killed. That's something that will put a strain on a relationship, and unlike most other relationship drama this actually doesn't feel forced or out of place. It's ironic that the only thing that could actually jinx this ship is Jinx.
I agree, reluctant co-workers to friends to lovers is way better development than "they hook up right away because they're gay and hot" approach that you usually see. I like seeing more realistic relationships in media.
@@hawkins347 I wish more people saw it this way. This is the first gay, romantic onscreen relationship(if one can call it that at this point, its very early stages) that I've seen in a while which I actually find compelling. I think the reason is exactly as you stated. It's a subtle relationship that the writers are clearly not rushing. Vi and Caitlyn are fully realized characters beyond their sexuality, or their relationship. Too often gay relationships in media these days feel like they are checking a diversity box instead of feeling real. I also kind of hate people liking them because they might(or are) lesbians, it cheapens a pair of well written characters who are likable for far more compelling reasons.
It is weirdly fitting that only Jinx could Jinx it
@@stephendoe7594 The problem is that we've had to settle for scraps and subtlety as our only representation in mainstream media that now we need *more* than this vague "will they won't they' stuff.
@@ravenfrancis1476 I think you need to be prepared for at least another season before they "get together." It seems to make sense given the events of the story that Jinx poses a significant obstacle to their relationship. Caitlyn will almost certainly feel duty bound to bring Jinx to justice, and Vi will be compelled to try and protect Jinx. I think it is shaping up to be a great romance, a tale of star crossed lovers akin to Romeo and Juliet. To want to rush such a potentially wonderful thing, just because you feel the need for representation is frankly appalling. I don't want another instance of, "look it's a lesbian couple. Isn't our show so progressive." The problem these days isn't a lack of representation, it's a lack of good, well written representation. I want the latter, and I refuse to agree to the necessity of the former in this day and age.
thank u for mentioning the fact that powder CLEARLY neurodivergent. as someone with adhd, the scenes where she was crying and hitting her head resonated with me more than id like to admit. ive never felt so seen??
same!!!
"Vi is what you'd get if _Orange is the New Black_ were an anime" has me CRYING
I liked watching the emotional intimacy, trust, and affectionate touches grow between these two. Maybe they are oil and water, but with a little spice and some action to mix things up, they can be a hell of a salad dressing... I, uh... not sure where I was going with that. It sounded better in my head. Regardless, looking forward to season 2.
Vi: oil
Caitlyn: water
Their love: emulsifier
Wait, you don't put oil and water on your salad...?
The shower scene pretty much implies that they're more like blood and water, two different things but they mix. The symbol is the blood dripping off of Caitlyn's leg wound, and mixing with the water (and also their hair color).
Two very different backgrounds (Caitlyn being the sheltered privileged girl, Vi being the more expressive thug) that work well together. That's basically their whole dynamic.
Really though, it'd be a crime to not have these two confirmed after all this teasing.
From now on I will address this ship as "Salad dressing" to confuse everyone. Thank you random commenter
No no you hit a strike
After watching Supergirl and being queerbaited into oblivion through Supercorp, I was so terrified to start this show because I didn't want to be queerbaited again.
But after listening to Vi call Cait Cupcake... And the other stuff they pulled. At the very latest at the bed scene I started being utterly convinced that they'll be canon.
Because honestly, you don't write this intense of a (sub)text and then refuse to make them canon. Like... It's literally impossible.
If they do queerbait, it'll be the last one for any franchise, because its impact would be immense.
I legitimately think the fallout would be huge if they try to be too coy about it or pull it back, because their relationship seems to have a very broad spectrum appeal, as does Vi herself. Even straight housewives are 'shipping this, and straight men are deeply analyzing the emotional build up instead of just lusting over them. They've designed the characters so well and made the subtext so text that it seems like 80% of the fanbase doesn't just see it, they're genuinely emotionally invested in it. I do get the sense, based on comments from the writers and animators, that they absolutely know what they did and did it on purpose and intend to follow it through. (Edit: I'm not implying the relationship is more valid because straight people like it, btw, just that the broad appeal is relevant in terms of sheer numbers. If they screw it up, 80% of the show's fanbase is coming for them. It's not a niche 'ship.)
Still, the relationship seems to have been set up with a slow burn type of development with some hefty obstacles set up for them, so I hope fans don't get too upset when it's not all smooth sailing and they don't get together right away. It seems like something that will build, and be absolutely worth that build-up in the end.
If you listen to their game lines, its heavily implied that they're a couple, so I really do think they're going to be in a relationship
You’re right. At this point, there is no subtext. It’s up in lights as one of the big attractions. There’s posters for this shit, and now they’ll have to follow through.
@@brennakingsbury9657 (preface, I agree with the vast majority of your comment) I would actually say that having straight people like a gay relationship does validate it. Not because straight people's opinions matter more(or something equally as silly), but because it means it's a human relationship that appeals beyond the sexuality of it. To me Vi and Caitlyn seem to work together as characters full stop. They'd even work together as really good friends or sisters from another mister. They don't need to be gay to make them work. I'd say this is the reason there isn't as much lusting after them, because we are made to care about them as characters absent their sexuality first. It's the difference between writing a gay character and a character who happens to be gay. As a straight man and a writer I find the second far more appealing than the first, because I can relate to these characters as people and then simply accept that they are gay. After all, one's sexuality is almost meaningless in terms of the content of one's character. I much rather people like Caitlyn and Vi for who they are rather than who they choose to love, and I'd like to live in a world where people don't champion characters like this because they are gay. It's as silly as liking a character because they are straight. Either way you're admiring an effectively meaningless attribute of their being.
Someone that worked on the show (I think he’s an animator) said on twitter that Caitlyn is a lesbian :) so there is a big chance they get together in season 2
Honestly, "you're hot, cupcake" was an instant classic line and all I needed to ship them to the ends of the earth.
“I paid your girlfriend a visit this morning”
“What did you do to her”
“I made her a snack :D”
Honestly that cupcake looks good.....oh shit I just got it CUPCAKE
Please talk about Jayce and Viktor!
Like we all know this shit is never going to happen (altho I dunno about Mel getting hit point-blank by a goddamn rocket) but the scene where they kept transitioning from Jayce and Mel having sex to Viktor fucking dying in the laboratory was simply a masterpiece.
Also the "Wait a minute, this isn't my bedroom" needs to be recognized as one of the best lines from this show.
Those 2 and their story is just frickin perfect and almost comes full circle by the end-
COME ON JAYCE DISCOVER BISEXUALITY NOW
Agreed, that's one of the best lines in the show. It makes me bust a gut laughing
Viktors first thought was that it‘d be a plausible explanation if he was trying to sneak some hot piece into his room.
the first time they showed viktor and jayce i thought they liked each other 😭🤦🏻
Can we like get one actually supportive and not toxic male friendship for once where they understand each other?
Caitlyn's race change was also addressed in the in game lore, that one of her parents was from Ionia (Asian based country with a little bit of South American), which seems to be her father, making the mother be the actual boss since she's from Piltover.
Also big spoilers for S2:
If the series ends up following the game's story, instead of branching into its own thing, Caitlyn's mother will survive 100%, since... Well both parents are needed for her story to continue, just saying.....
Maybe they'll only use one of her parents for that storyline though. They can make it work with her mom dying in the explosion
They've slowly redesigned a bunch of the popular female champions to appeal to the games massive Korean and Chinese audience either with in game skins or splash arts or in cinematics
Ahri looks much more cat-like in A New Dawn but in the K-Pop videos she looks like a regular person but with cat ears
@@jak1165 tbf, Ahri looks different in any media shes in. period. We have her in game model wich looks kinda generic fantasy babe, we have KDA where shes kinda just a white girl, we have ruined king were she looks much more feral and in Project L she yet again looks slightly different. And im not Counting A New Dawn since thats a hella old cinematic that aplies that summoners rift would be still canon but yes, she does look alot more cat like in there
I don't play lol but i know a bit about the legends/characters story. Though i dont know why are both Caitlyn's parents needed for her story. Can you please explain? I dont care about spoilers fyi. (:
@@fmt_pineapllbgr1294 In her original lore, she rescued her parents from a kidnapping before becoming the Sheriff of Piltover. Cant rescue them if they're dead
Yeah, the whole “your crazy sister killed my mom” thing is definitely going to be a major obstacle in terms of them forming a proper romantic relationship. But I have faith that the writers are going to do a good job with it in Season 2.
You know when you look at Jinx’s jealously at Caitlyn, you begin to realize it’s more than just that Vi is trying to replace her, Vi is in love with an enforcer aka the people who killed their family.
People who think they are just friends, are the classic people who never know when other people are flirting whit them.
they were just close close friends according to historians totallyyyyy
I mean, I'm a clueless lesbian and I still see they're obviously gay for each other
This is the most obviously gay couple in an animated show since Marceline and PB in Adventure Time. But people also tried to say “they’re just good friends” for years too.
no that's not it, they're just homophobic lol
If Vi were a dude or hell even Cat (shower scene would've become an implied fapping one) they'd totally say they're romantic. Plus people have shipped hetero for lesser reasons. Chun Li X Vega makes no sense but it's popular.
If iI had a nickel for every time i enjoy a show, where the protagonist is a lesbian in a red jacket, I'd have two nikles
Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happend twoce.
You can say it. You can say Adora.
there are at least 4 I enjoyed with a strong fighter lesbian and her dark haired girlfriend
shera fans unite
.....Why was my first thought Carmen Sandiego?
@@redballoon9007 OH MY GOD I FORGOT ABOUT HER even tho she wears more of a coat but still, red jacketed lesbian trinity
"cait is the opposite of vi. she's rich, tall, and has breathing parents." this entire video made me laugh so hard
0:12 CARESSING THEIR FACES LMAO-
you said how Vi is jacked in the show. And she is.
But everybody seems to forget how Caitlyn is jacked too (I mean look at her 10:15 and tell me she isn't). She's just not a muscle beast like Vi is (Vi being larger, AND a bit smaller doesn't help either)
Caitlyn is just more slender than Vi
Yeah dude! She her arms are pretty buff! And I like the fact that this only happens in Act 2. Why Act 2? Cause she’s a police officer by then, abs she takes it seriously. So it makes sense that she had the body of someone who trains to fight. A lot of female characters that are some form of warrior in media are always depicted as either slender or muscular in the wrong way. Like, they’d have an athletic body but like that of a gymnast. Caitlyn is actually built like someone who trains to fight, which would show a developed upper torso like we see in arcane. Broad shoulders and big arms
Yes, love that she has a lean, muscular body tone. Shows that she has stamina and can run long distances, which she would need, being an enforcer chasing down suspects / crooks, and her arms and shoulders are quite well defined, as she uses a rifle. She would need that strength to handle the recoil
The proper term is athletic....
She's definitely fit and has done physical training for being a cop, but she's not jacked lol
Ship name PSA: Violyn.
Also, I never noticed that lip bite before. This show truly is the gift that keeps on giving. Thanks for pointing that out.
Edit: Yes, I know Piltover's Finest is a great ship name, but it's not so good for shorthand. Besides, Violyn is such a pretty name.
It has been Piltover's finest for the longest time.
@@SuperHongTay Piltover's finest it is. 👍👍👍
That ship name is perfect.
In the scene Caitlyn gives Vi the shimmer to heal her wound, Caitlyn subconsciously brushes Vi’s cheek with her fingers while she stares into her eyes. Later, she brushes the same side of Vi’s cheek in the scene in her room
Violynce is my joke name even tho Piltover's Finest is clearer.
9:26 Those "random goggles" are actually of the friend she has lost - Claggor.
Jinx: "I paid your girlfriend a visit"
Me: "JINX STOP GIVING SPOILERS TO THE SECOND SEASON! "
"Korra, she did this to me."
Me too man. Me too.
Uh HUH
Mikasa Ackermann was the one that did it for me
me 3
'I made her a snack!'
'But she's already a snack...?'
Directed by Robert B. Weide
my clueless aro/ace ass couldn't agree more, this was so fucking obvious.
Edit: not like that is a bad thing, shit gets complicated on the aro/ace spectrums. I really enjoyed it and hope something doesn't come out of left field next season whenever they are ready to drop it because it is ready, I would rather wait 3 or 4 years than have it rushed.
SC: "Her name means 5"
Me: "Bruh, VI is 6 in roman numerals"
Cait: what about us?
Vi: Top and Bottom wasn't meant to be.
Me: Well technically in that case you're meant to be. If you know what i mean. 🥴🥴🥴
Notice how vi is the one from the undercity, this is a subtle nod to how she is the bottom and secretly wants cait to top her.
you could just have said “top and bottom” and leave it there 😂👌
No problem, Vi can head into the jungle.
yooo that blew my mind because i cant help but view vi as a total bottom so it all makes sense omggg
Cait is so much top and Vi is a bottom to the earth core
Aight, I’m a just drop my own two cents that nobody asked for on why I DON’T think this relationship was rushed and has actually been progressing rather nicely in the context of the show.
Sorry if this gets long. It’s 3 am and I have thoughts
See, decades of poorly written romance stories has convinced us that for a good relationship to blossom it has to go through the “slow burn”, but this will only culminate in a very tedious will they won’t they situation and the writers constantly teasing its target audience for their favorite ship to happen. And LGBT romances have historically gotten the worst of this. While it may seem weird that Vi and Caitlyn have gotten over their animosity over each other in such a short amount of time, nowhere in the story itself did they actually give each other any reason to keep that animosity on a personal level. Vi is initially dismissive of Caitlyn because she expected her to be what she has always thought a Piltover enforcer to be; a person with no regard to the well being of those from the undercity. But what does Caitlyn do? She frees her from prison, saves her life even after being ditched, then proceeds to change her worldview after being presented with the reality of the Zaunites’ depressing situation and even goes so far as to actively do something to fix it. Vi has been screwed over by so many people for so long that she didn’t count on the one person that comes from an environment that has made her life miserable to be a genuinely good person. And that misplaced resentment gradually erodes each time Caitlyn proves she is not her enemy and will in fact look out for her in any way that she can. The situation is a little different on Caitlyn’s end though. She doesn’t hold the same level of hatred for Zuanites’ as they do for Topsiders precisely because she grew up as a sheltered privileged rich kid. She never had to face the same kind of agonizing loss like Vi had at the hands of other enforcers. She has no personal reason to hold any reservations against Vi, but she still keeps her guard because she was trained to believe all Zaunites’ were lowly criminals. However, her loyalties to her government starts to waver because even she admits that keeping a young woman incarcerated without documented cause and being regularly beaten is pretty fucked up. Vi has every right to keep herself guarded from someone like her, but the brief moments of vulnerability and humor that Vi lends to Caitlyn shows how even as a damaged product of her environment she still maintains her good nature.
Also, don’t underestimate the power of physical attraction.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Caitlyn’s romantic feelings developed initially because she found Vi attractive, because that’s how 80% of most relationships start in the real world. The fact that Vi reveals to be a good natured ally in the brief time they’ve known each would only cement those feelings even further. Same goes for Vi, I mean she said it right to her face for fucks sake.
The fact that Arcane was able to get through the whole “I don’t trust you” phase relatively quickly is honestly really refreshing because now it can focus on the “I want to do right by you because of how much I’ve grown to care for you” chapter in their lives.
Just imagine what an absolute power couple these two would be if they decide to become official within the first act of season 2. Think of the fluffy comfort they can give to each other cuz lord knows they both need it after that ending. Don’t you just want to get to that good shit? It’s very clear that the writers want them to be together, and they’ve done a pretty good job showing why they would want to be together, they just have to make it explicit.
I.e. stop beating around the bush and let one of them confess/ kiss the other.
Apologies for the gay ramblings of a sleep deprived bisexual
I agree. I think their experiences together should make the “I dont trust you phase.” Pass quickly. I mean cait literally saved Vi’s life and took care of her when she could’ve just left her for dead. Makes sense why Vi would trust her.
Yeah I mean even if it was rushed I prefer this and the owl houses dynamic over dragging it out for 10 seasons. I think will they won’t they is fine for 2-3 seasons but after that it gets old and adds unnecessary drama and love triangles to keep the relationship apart.
honestly though (and i’m saying this as a lesbian) i keep wondering, what would caitlin otherwise have done if she didn’t save vi? what other person did she have around to help her find silco? i could be wrong, but it’s biting at me. i had to say it
Fantastic analysis
@@sabrinanezaj9940 luckily for the ship, up until they went down into the mines, Caitlyn didn't know that Vi was legit the *only* option to help her. Prior to that she doesn't know just how much power Silco has over the people of Zaun. They either fear him, disagree with him but are too powerless to do anything, work for him or are hooked on shimmer. But Cait only knows how bad things are until they go to the mines.
6:55 Hey no need to be sarcastic at that. She gave her drug to safe her life. Shimmer healed that wound from shot that Vi had
"Cait is the polar opposite of Vi: She's rich, tall, with breathing parents."
This sent me lol
The weirdest thing for me on the shipping front was thinking about Jayce and Victor only platonically, like brothers. I'm a simple NB, I see affection, i ship. Yet here, i didn't. I surprised myself
I got scared of the possible shipping wars with jayce and victor but since jayce is in a kinda relationship it might be alright. -poly relationships existing-
I think it might be because their main shared point of interest is Hextech, not each other. Viktor goes to Jayce because he thinks Hextech has potential, not because Jayce personally interests him. They definitely grow to care about each other, but their relationship is more professional and ideological in the beginning.
Personally, same. I tend to ship rather easily, but in their case, although there was definitely chemistry and they could have had something, Jace got too occupied with the council thing and Viktor seemed to really focus on his science and experimentation. If Victor wasn't dying and if Jace wasn't so easily influenced by the council they could have definitely had a thing
Jayce was busy with sextech
@@monikakavaliunaite8017 I feel like there could be something if little effort were put. They could have had made that they have interest in each other from the begining, or have a slowly falling in love kind of thing(intended for after the time skip), yet they never did and even wrote it so their friendship has it's rough times. I had the initial desire to ship, but nothing to work with, it just felt like a friendship at the end(not that it's bad or anything). I then opened twitter and the rest is history(copium!!!!)
Zaun: "FUCK THE POLICE!"
Vi: "I'm trying!"
This comment is criminally underrated xD
Is it strange when we look at arcane vi vs original concept art I think she’s more beautiful in arcane than the male gaze version
I'd imagine it's the authenticity of it. And probably the fact that, aside from hair colour, hair style and clothing, the majority of the women like... Literally look the same.
NAH, vi is SO more beautiful in game version, bro. sorry. she is pretty in arcane, but splashart version is perfect Vi
9:08 *Literally shows 5 skins of the same set that are meant to look alike*
11/10 best roommates ever (this is coming from someone who hasn’t watched arcane yet but ive seen the clips + love this video’s opening!)
TO THE PPL SAYING I SHOULD WATCH ARCANE LMAO: im planning to dw, i just need to wait for my xmas school break to start since i prefer binge watching :D
watch arcane
watch arcane
watch arcane, it will literally blow your mind
watch arcane
@@lordmeow and your friends minds
Another reason why I think Vi and Cait works is because Vi has a very forward and naturally flirty. It's her "charming personality." Given her life, romance and partners are the last thing she's thinking about. She's not looking for anyone to be by her side, so when one unexpectedly sticks with her and actually reciprocates her charming banter, that's when Vi starts thinking that this person is someone she can not only trust, but can also enjoy being around.
Some people have said they feel like Vi and Cait got along too fast, but I don't think so. First off, there's a lot of physical attraction, and even though we try not to admit it, hotness is a big factor in relationships. Then there's Vi's fast and loose personality, coupled with Cait's frustration with her boss and family not taking her seriously. They're the kind of couple that just click right off the bat. They can be rare IRL, but they exist.
yeah, I approve of this so bad! Like ... The way she finally acts with her (not only the romantic ones) she's just leaving prison and then Caitlyn is with her, trusting her, helping her... she's feeling like a human again! And I also really love how they also develop a friendship ( not only for the "love-ship")
honestly the jokes in this land so well i watch this on repeat or when i need something in the background. funny stuff!
I had to subscribe bro 🤣 I had a heavy laugh around 8:34 with the wolverine joke
I've played these characters for nearly 10 years now, two of my favourites. Seeing them get the time and care from the Arcane team to build a genuine, unforced love for eachother is so rewarding in some weird way. It's not shoehorned in and it's not their entire character. Focusing on the emotional intimacy and subtly alluding to their physical attraction to each other was a great choice too. They capture it in Cait's eyes brilliantly for an animation, so so impressed.
"There is no home wrecker in sight"
*cough* better hope they dont bring Seraphine in season 2 then *cough*
Lesbian Love Triangle? With these hot chicks? SIGN ME UP!!!
Don't know much about the timeline but wouldn't Seraphine be around Jinx's age or younger?
@@romeb.1060 I think she is about the same age as caitlyn
ok, I know nothing of League of Legends, but I keep seeing that name bantered around vitriolicly. Who is she?
@@keithharper32 League of Legends' Popstar except her backstory and lore is exceptionally controversial. Also, Cait asks for an autograph in-game so there's that.
"She chose woman fyi"
Very important. I screamed at this scene
And Cait being thirsty for Vi??? So true. So so so true. I mean - I am too cuz VI IS HOT. Waiting for Cait to return the favour of calling Vi hot like in the brothel scene.
I shall be thirsty alongside you for Vi. 😳
10:40 subtitle: "I am a male I do gays"
Ok you do you 😏
glad im not the only one who assumed that saving someone from the brink of suicide has homoerotic connotations but as a fellow angry short lesbian im much happier with the ship they decided to give us instead (because god knows u cant have two gay couples in one show)
Wait two?
@@Mortal-Knite They're alluding to Jayce and Viktor
@@DAPHNEflavored I'm not seeing that in the show. More of a brotherly bond
@@Mortal-Knite Yeah same. I get how people would ship them but with Viktor and Jayce especially seeing as Jayce referred to Viktor as "like a brother" it lowkey turned me off a slight bit. But I understand it; I like the aesthetics of the ship. I like the implications of what a romance between them would look like.
@@DAPHNEflavored I can kinda see it, but mostly feeling the brotherly bond the most of the time.
Listen... if they are 'just friends' I also wanna have a 'friend' like that. Hmu
if they are 'just friends" even with ALL we have in the game AND in Arcane .... maybe am I NOT THAT gay too :')
Damn my girlfriend would be disappointed if I just walk in our room and says "hey bestie, I think we are finally just very very very close friends" X)
What? You don't lovingly caress the homies on the cheek?
9:31 THANK YOUUU
if they were a straight couple no one would think they are just friends 💀
I don’t care what people think. Vi and Cait kissed on that bed and the animators just chose not to show it. There’s a very clear parallel there to that Jayce sex scene with how it cuts from two "partners" sharing an intimate moment to the brother/sister being at deaths door.
And if this is genuinely not the intention of the creators then Cait asking Vi "what about us" comes across as really forced. Sure they were showing many signs of caring for each other but Cait is the type to hug a mutated stranger after finding out how he ruined his life so she’s capable of showing care for anyone she thinks is oppressed or suffering. She’s known Vi for all of two or three days. It’s plenty of time to form a proper romantic bond but they never outwardly show or say "I want to be with you" in any kind of way. It’s always been a "I got your back" situation. It’s not enough to bring their relationship to a point where cait feels like there’s a "us".
However if we assume they kissed on that bed after holding hands, everything falls neatly into place. I mean what else do you do when you hold hands and stare intimately into each other’s eyes on a bed?
Oh I'm sure they had more than enough time to do other things then just kiss on that bed 😏
Like they broke back into her room in the morning, and only went to see the council that night. They had like 8-10 hours to prep for the meeting lol
This actually make sense.I mean, it could also make sense if we intend the US in a more general meaning, like an alliance, that they actually formed, with hints of a deeper relationship.But yeah, this definitly makes sense
I don't think they kissed but definitely agree it was an incredibly intimate moment. Just because it wasn't physical doesn't mean it wasn't incredibly romantic and personal.
No, we MUST see their first kiss.
@@xxlCortez Exactly; I really, REALLY doubt the writers would deprive us of that lmao. I think the bed scene is a parallel to Mel and Jayce's sex scene, absolutely, but Vi and Caitlyn have a slow burn relationship where as Mel and Jayce were, like, RIGHT on each others' asses. It makes sense that the "intimacy" scene for M & J is a 'hot, physical, passionate, 1-10' sex scene whereas V & C's scene is far deeper, calmer and more powerful. They would NEVER deprive us of that first kiss lmao.
11:26 “Her name means five.”
*Are you sure about that?*
The only math she does is fist versus face.
Ergo, Vi can't count.
@@nikytamayo And fist versus Cupcake~
It's Violet
The first time that I saw Arcane, I wondered why Vi had the Roman numerals for V and I on her cheek. Then my sister told me "it's her name, silly, not the Roman numerals." And I felt like a dummy xD
@@l.n.3372 I thought that too at first! 🙈
Vi and cailyin in the games: Oh I never thought we would fight each other
Representation starved lesbians: It must be love
No one would even question their romantic feelings for one another if Vi was a dude.
"After nearly killing a man, she decided to make a career out of it and joined the Enforcers."
OMFG 🤣
I'm a simple guy. I see a new Sarcastic Chorus video about Caitlyn x Vi, I click
I'm a simple girl, I see some sarcastic contents about two girls I ship, I click to satisfy my lesbian brain
we all have motivations X)
4:23 One of the best jokes in TV history.
10:52 honestly? understandable. sometimes the fanfiction is written better than the show. my hero is shit at writing women as well as falling into basic tropes
While I can see a reasonable person make the argument that "What about us?" is about friendship, the response "Wasn't meant to be" basicly beats you over the head with obviousnes.
I love your sarcastic comments and edits, like "Just kiss your fruitcakes" took me by surprise and made me laugh so much
Edit: Somebody should make a collection of moments like this and best one liners like the f the police one
Honestly, they're a blue-red ship, that's already putting them up there as an instant favorite.
Love a male creator that actually is a feminist 💕✨ It’s noice to see someone who isn’t a girl discussing WLW and male gaze. 👌
5:53
Why am i imagining kate with a bunch of marvel and dc posters and figurines
3:45
That ‘shut up’ has me sold on the ship. That’s the fucken flirtiest shut up that has ever been spoken.
"No homewrecker in sight"
Jinx: I'm going to do what's called a _gamer move._
All my chips on that Caitlyn's mom doesn't survive the explosion.
3:14 “im literally neurodivergent and a minor”