I think it's great to see more experimentation (and trickle down from mtb design) happening in the dirt road world. Part of the problem is that the simplistic label "Gravel" encompasses a really wide spectrum of actual terrain and riding conditions. If you regularly bomb rough, rutted, steep fire roads in Idaho/MT/etc, your requirements could be quite different than someone who rides "gravel" in New Hampshire. Trying to shoehorn all designs under one silly label creates a narrow-minded idea of what a "gravel" bike should be (along with racing influence). For me, in the greater Yellowstone area, a dirt road bike with moderately progressive geo and a dropper makes a lot of sense, as a lot of the terrain I would ride a bike like this on borders on what could be defined as "mountain biking" more more so than "road biking." As you said, "I had my assumptions about how a bike like this would ride, but I have to say, I've been pleasantly surprised..." This has been my experience with progressive geo bikes, and it's also been my experience with attitudes toward them - people make a lot of assumptions based on numbers, but with little if any time actually in the saddle on one. More riding might cause a few light bulbs to turn on...
I've been converting 80s MTBs to drop bars for years. I tried to use either a very short stem or go down a couple frame sizes to get the right reach, and the former is definitely preferable.
@@MrTaxiRob I have installed my flat bar with very short and high stem to feel more relax and suddenly almost fell twice riding at slow speed on flat surface. It was also when I switched to this rigid bike from hardtail so I'm not sure what to blame exactly.
"Flippy floppy drunken goaty driving a shopping cart sensation.. ." I do not need to characterize this phrase, I just had to write it down somewhere... More, please, Russ!
It looks like the Cinder smokes, Russ, and those descents were somewhat faster than party pace and that's not a bad thing. it is all fun and games and that bike looks like a blast.
Interesting bike. I think another reason this is a niche bike is that if long days/long miles are your thing, high trail bikes are more work. When you’re fatigued is when you need a bike that will hold a steady line with minimal input and this does not look like that bike. But for mellow mountain bikey routes where for some reason really want a rigid drop bar bike, this is probably a good choice.
Wait you definitely got the geo of front end wrong a bike with slacker head angle & high trail[low fork offset] is slower to turn so it keeps the tire in same line ie straight even on road. & visaversa are road bikes they are far more twitchy means change direction quickly.
I have this similar set up for a gravel / touring bike...really short 32mm mountain bike stem, a bit upright riding position, slightly flared 42cm dropbars with shallow reach, 68deg slack fork...
Finally… this is closer to what I’d like as someone who often rides intermediate trails and around town. Even on my hard tail I need to get my ass way out over the back tire to keep from going over the bars on a steep downhill, on most gravel you’ll just flip over when the back tire kicks up.
Sounds like a pretty sweet rig. Glad to see some options opening up in the dropbar MTB lineup finally. Those of us who have been riding this way for a while have had far too limited options. I get the reasoning of racing driving sales but it is such a narrow lane and you may as well be riding a roadie in full spandex. Maybe we should get a dropbar MTB race series going to drive this forward a bit more....hmmm.
Reminds me a lot of Salsa's Fargo. I had often wondered why this bike was not more popular. Since I got my start in mountain biking, the Fargo didn't feel strange to me. Thanks for the explanation Russ!
I'm too low budget to consider even the wheels on these kinds of bikes, but it's really interesting to hear the theory behind the decisions made and how some bikes are put together. I've been slowly working on building up a 2009 Gary Fisher x-calibur into an Allegheny Passage bike, using parts on hand from bike shop scrap piles, a rear wheel from FB marketplace, and a couple of scrapper Walmart bikes, and so-far it's been a blast. Haven't used it on anything crazy long yet, but I have set it up with a fair bit of the theories presented in these vids to try to get it just where it needs to be to feel good.
Thank you for the cool review. I think the road geometry is still dominant because it fits most people in the market. Most people I know want to use their gravel bike as an all road machine riding lots of road much gravel and a little bit of trail. Maybe it will shift but I don't see many people on gravel bikes on the local trails. I do see a lot of gravel bikes on bumpy roads though.
I think you’re correct in pretty much all your points. I, however, would rather be on this bike on the road - even if it’s a ride with 90-100% pavement. I just feel more confident on this design than I do on a more traditional road bike. I bet there are a few others out there like me - and I’d love to build a bike for each of them!
@@willscharen8472 I believe there are too few of these bikes on the market and they are truly appreciated. It is a "minority" of the whole "gravel market" but still a pretty big group. Just not big enough for many of the big companies. As Russ mentioned there is the Hagar with a similarish looking (to me) geometry and I am sure more will follow.
Great review Russ. I'd be interested in seeing how this bike feels on a "typical" gravel loop here in the Midwest. My guess is I'd need some time to adjust to the geo. It seems like it might be better suited for some of the loops I ride where its a mix of singletrack, steep two track and super hilly gravel.
It looks (and reads) like an XC frane built with a rigid fork. Which is an idea I’ve been having for a while now. Some, not all, but some MTB frames, full suspension included, make excellent gravel bikes if built with a drop bar.
There’s a lot of truth in that. A lot of my research/testing for this model was done on a drop-bar converted 29er. But there will be compromises, whether anticipated or surprises down the road, with any sort of conversion project like that.
This build is kind of like my Marin Gestalt x10. Similar geometry and I also put Specialized Sawtooth on mine haha. It's a really versatile, comfortable bike but obviously not for everyone.
@@duduoson5278 HTA still falls in that pretty conventional 70 to 71.5 degree range. Still uses conventional stem lengths. Reach is still pretty conventional to road sizing as is wheelbase.
I think Russ nailed it about fit adjustments. Not only is reach not really adjustable, but to some degree stack ( I often use stems with a lot of rise , as steering posts may be too short). If it fits, no issue. If it doesn't, tough to fix.
That’s true. These bikes are made to order, so I try to dial in each customer’s vertical and horizontal fit numbers so there is little to no adjustment needed later. Other elements like trail, BB drop, and rear center are fixed. So the Cinder is sort of like a stock model with custom sizing.
I’ve always hated it when I’d hit my foot on the front wheel (and or fender) if I was running flat pedals. I’m hoping a frame like this would give me more clearance.
Looks like a great ride... Louisiana roads make me feel like I'm on gravel at times. .no what I can with my road bike or mountain bike... seeing a gravel bike in my future..
Bikes that don't fit the RBIC mold! Nice! How refreshing! Let's put some drop bars on a Kona Honzo ESD 63°HT next! I want diversity in my biking outside of 73°-71°HTs! Review a Pashley Roadster and see if we've really improved design at all since 1926!
"When you change geometry to make something better, you inevitably make something else worse" I think is a saying attributed to Chris Porter, one of the early propenents of progressive mountain bike geometry. I think this bike is a case in point.
Hmm. What if we replace the front with suspension fork and put flat bar instead of drop bar. Would it be more effective on single trail adventure ride?
Troublemaker. Would you like me to ask my Hammer Race what it thinks? I'll be right back... Yes. My old Hammer Race Says yes. My drop bar Equipe isn't so sure...
I don't know about how "blank slate" it was, The Chamois Hagar from Evil has been out for a few years now, but happy to see some competition. Personally, I believe the 68deg HTA is dialing back to what's more realist. I have to imagine before too long, the stuff coming out in the "aggressive" realm will setting on something around 69deg with around a 50-70mm stem to give the rider at least a little wiggle room for stem length.
True, the Evil has been out for a while and it's one of the bikes I looked at for inspiration. I do realize a 33mm stem leaves little wiggle room, which is why I offer a semi-custom sizing for the Cinder. I try to match the rider compartment specified by the customer, keeping the same contact points, but fitting them on the Cinder platform. Any extra stem length on the rider's measured bike gets transformed into a longer effective top tube on the Cinder. Vertical measurements come into play too, so that the head tube and seat tube are the proper lengths for the specified rider position and dropper post.
Is this content for me? My great grandfather was the mayor of Independence back in 1904. I’m in Ashland. I need to get a test ride on a Scharen! I have an XC bike with a 69.5 degree head tube angle. The Cinder is 68? Wild. I would guess that it has a long offset or rake to avoid flop, correct? In general, I like a short rake for a linear steering feel, but this bike might change my mind. Great content. Thanks!
Hi, Jon! Please look me up and stop by some time. I’d love to set you up with a test ride to see what you think of the design. This bike has a production fork by Dedacciai, which has 50mm of offset.
@@willscharen8472 - Thanks Will! I’ll get in touch. BTW, 50mm offset sounds just right. I generally prefer a low offset (44 or less) for linear steering, but that’s for steeper head angles. My road bike has a steep head angle and 43mm rake, and it’s snappy. My endurance/winter bike has a 72.5 degree head angle and a 50mm rake, and it’s… not great. On the XC bike, I upgraded the fork and went from 51mm to 44mm, which works great for climbing and agility. With your long, slack design, it definitely needs more offset, and 50 seems to be just right - on paper. I’m curious to experience it when pointed down a hill!
They are not catering to some mythical bike-industrial complex. Road geometries are used because they are more aero and more aero means better times in gravel races, as simple as that. I also question how comfortable these bikes are in long rides, it seems like the drops are not a very comfortable position on these, and drops are not comfortable in general. At a certain point, if you aren't using the drops, might as well get a mountain bike or a hybrid. I can't say for certain, but when I converted my hybrid in the 90's to draob bars the first time, I used too long a stem, and it was uncomfortable in the drops as I can imagine these are. However, if one is using this to barrel down a mountain like 90's era MTBs, this would be more comfortable for sure. There is a reason those MTBs now use this geometry.
" they are more aero and more aero means better times in gravel races, as simple as that" that mentality sounds exactly like catering to the Industrial Roadie Bike Complex to me :) Drops can be comfortable. Not if you set them up like some psuedo pro. At that, if you watch any Grand Tours they are more often in the hoods than the drops.
As an owner of a “progressive” gravel bike, the one thing I’ve noticed is the VAST majority of reviews are done by folks who barely ride it. THEN they talk about the “floppy” front end when climbing. Here’s an answer, climb better and be a better bike handler. Harsh? Maybe, but I’ve been riding my 66 degree head angle bike for a year now and climbing on it is an absolute dream. ZERO….I REPEAT…ZERO FLOP. So…Russ, thank you for ACTUALLY spending REAL time on this bike. I think what a lot of people are missing on is the opposite side of the spectrum and that’s when a trail gets real techy, standard gravel bikes with their short front centers and steep head angles, ride like shit and are sketchy AF. Thanks for a great review! 😃
That loose [phone GPS?] on your bag flopping around made my stomach drop the first time it flopped. I almost reached out into nothingness to try to catch it! Ha you should get a gub brand phone holder, no more flop
I ride what I consider a very road like gravel bike (Topstone Carbon), and I'm waiting for a modern hardtail to arrive (Canyon Stoic). I'm super curious to see how it feels like since I don't ride an MTB for a few years for more than a few times (rentals, friends bikes), and never tried a modern (low slack long) bike. Without testing it I can only guess how it feels like, but I don't see the point for this kind of bike. I think you get a lot of the worse of both worlds. A slow road bike, and a slow MTB. It's versatile... but if you can afford to maintain 2 bikes, (and most people can't even afford one by today's prices) this one doesn't make any sense in my head. It's a rigid XC.
Looks like this bike would make descending on a gravel bike much more fun but it does beg the question: if you want to ride trails then why not just buy a MTB? Surely the point of a gravel bike should be that it rides pretty much like a road bike and therefore makes longer distanced mixed surface riding more efficient than a MTB.
I wanted a bike that felt more like a mountain bike AND made longer mixed-surface rides more efficient. This bike is the result. If gravel is the middle of the spectrum, I'm just approaching the middle from the opposite side of someone who rides primarily road.
The cycle continues: oh cool, a new PartyPace vid... look at that scenery... I should go ride... *pause vid, ride 20+ miles, come back and finish the vid*
Regarding geometry, ride, and handling, how does this bike differ from riding a hardtail mountain bike with drop bars and a steer tube extender installed?
thanks for the review, there was much to learn about head tube angles and trail. maybe it's my language skills, or maybe brain damage, but I didn't quite get the reference to Jan Heine's opinion of high trail bikes. are they "the schiznit" or are they just "schiznit" to ride gravel?
Maybe not that far off a current XC hardtail, but it's designed to work with the gravel components available. There are a few little things that add up to a lot of incompatibility between gravel (meaning basically road) and mountain components, like flat mount brakes, hub width, drivetrain, etc. Also, I think a purpose-built gravel bike looks better without the suspension-corrected geo of a hardtail.
I have a BMC URS ONE. 74 degree seat tube angle, 70 degree head angle, Trail measurement of 77mm. This bike is great. Would you consider this bike Progressive? If you get the opportunity to ride/test one I would be curious your impression.
Front center is different than top tube length. FC is from the bottom bracket to front axle. Looking at the geo it’s approaching something progressive but didn’t quite commit to it.
I always thought that Progressive bike meant long top tubes, long forks and builders/designers prone towards a obsessive dedication towards technical skill..... but then I realized I was mixing it up with progressive rock.
Sorry, I had to rewatch from 7:47 on because I was crazy distracted by fearing for your phone's life. I'm sure it was fine and you've ridden this way many times before, but whoo boy, that was a butt-puckerer.
I'm curious how this geometry would be affected by a full load of bikepacking bags. Looks like it was fun for day rides, but how would it do multi-day?
I've a drop bar MTB with similar geometry. It's a superb bike packing bike (I don't think any geometry will pose a problem for luggage though). You want to pay more attention to tyre volume and frame flex, IMO.
So, I'll share. While I cringe every time someone barks "Gravel Bikes aren't a thing, it's juast an MTB/CX/Tour/Blarghety Bike with Blarghety Bits and extra blargety blargh" - and on an on it goes. Yeah, it's a consumption driven society, and sometimes, the degrees and millimeters and marketing and tweaking can be a bit forth with the back and retro with the progressive, and etcetera with the such as. And yes, we can make do with what we have, and naught part with our hard earned cash-monies. But sparkly things are sparkly, yes, and there is nothing wrong with either innovation, nor the elusive quest for that balance of purpose specific yet broad enough capabilities that can make a bike ride dreamy, and stable, or fast, or packed with smiles. I ride relatively cheap bikes, mostly out of fiduciary necessity. I purchase them second-hand, thrift, new old stock, clearance, and yesterday's middle of the road technology. And I tinker, and I fidget, and I dream. I rode all manner of 1990's 26" steel hardtails, many with drop bar conversions, and that worked. Stable, affordable, reliable, durable. Then, in about 2014 or so, when one was murdalized in an "alterslamination" with a motor vehicle, I purchased an overbuilt Surly Ogre; a monster tour/monster commuter 29" MTB abomination of a steel beast. Within two years, I had converted it to Drop Bars, and it is my 30+ pound gravel monster. I also still have my 2002 Trek 520 touring bike, with the widest 47mm tires that I can stuff into it, and it also see's mostly gravel. For that matter, my old ~2001 Specialized Allez with it's 23c tires sees as much gravel, single-track, and crushed limestone as it does pavement or tarmac -- so, yes, technically, "any" bike can be a "gravel" bike... albeit, to varying degrees of efficacy, comfort, stability, and safety. Do I want a gorgeous, and well-engineered Salsa Cutthroat, a Chamois Hagar, something like a Scharen or another lightweight, slack headtube, long trail, MTB-inspired, drop bar, stable stretch land rover that comes in under 25 pounds, instead of well over 30, and natively fits the wheels and tires that I want, and the shifty bits that I want, without a lot of fuss, and tinkering, continual adjustment, and trail woes that come with whatever MacGyvered bin of madness I've cobbled together to make my dreams fit my waking nightmare existence? Yeah, that might be nice... But how often do we think we've found the quiver-killer; the final utilitarian speedster family car/work truck/commuter doo-ji-ma-bob bike or whatever for our kitchen counter, only to find out, over the years and months, that it has one, or two, or five, niggling, nagging, minor, or not so minor, little things that it just doesn't quite do as slick as we might have hoped and dreamed? This looks like a sweet ride; and I am absolutely down with the idea; I think this is definitely what is needed, for stability, confidence, and command of most gravel riding. Will it be the choice for racing? Nope. Will it fill all gaps and niches? Narply so, sayeth the naysayer; to each their six and a half a dozen of another. But I likes it. It makes much more sense to me than trying to get someone who really isn't gunning for the podium something to ride that just might give them a fair shot at keeping their clavicles intact. Cuz I hate seeing someone go down and snapping one of those... which seems far too common an occurence on the cross/tour/road geometry that is so prevalent out there, and I can't help but think that this geo would help prevent some of that.
What gravel world did I step into where 42 tires are not very wide? Yikes. I must already need a new gravel bike because I'm tapped out at 40 in the rear. I suppose if you rock progressive geometry, it just comes with the territory?
Also, my first serious touring bike was a '93 Giant Iguana, which was quite slack-fronted, I tried drops on it and it was twitchy AF!, I settled on a Xoom Brahma Bar. I ran that ride for 20 years. Still the best bike I've ever owned for all roads riding. 26x1.5 tyres crunked it out for sweet commuting, touring and rough road exploring. Quill stem rusted solid in the fork. The only reason I gave it away. Was still ridable, but desperately needed new head bearings. So many stories, that bike. Like a 90s equivalent of a Surly Trucker, only hella cheaper.
Kinda similar, kinda not. This bike is designed around drop bars and the DSX 1 is a flat bar bike. The geo is not quite there in terms of being the "mountain biker's gravel bike" that they claim.
These slack head angles and high trails show gravel bikers are starting to learn the same thing mountain bikers learned: steer with your body, not your bars.
So, road cyclists very much don't steer with the bar, or rather they counter steer: small movements to rotate the contact patch and then tune the lean of the bike with your butt. This is incredibly effective and efficient on roads at speed. But it doesn't really work on single track or loose gnar, as even Jan Heine admits.. It's always horses for courses, and how a bike fits with your riding style and the terrain your riding on. That's why it's important to have as many bikes as you have room for.
@@TheGotoGeek n+3 aint even worth it. The price you pay for crap quality of the bike nowadays plus bike fit costs. Yeh no. Not worth of roi. Just enjoy the bike you currently ride and accept it has limitations.
@@willscharen8472 Yes I know the rim width greatly affects the true size and shape of the tire. Sawtooth is pretty old tire design so I was thinking it might be 42mm in pretty narrow rim (at least in todays standards)
Thank you! Super slack - makes sense. I remember thinking the Gary Fishers shifted weight farther back than most. Would this bike be similar in that respect? It surely doesn’t matter; just trying to get a sense of what it’d feel like to ride.
That hotel in OR needs to put you and Laura up so you can feature the hotel and film the local trails.
Man, your reviews are just so comprehensive! It's wild that you take the time to ride a bike for weeks
I think it's great to see more experimentation (and trickle down from mtb design) happening in the dirt road world. Part of the problem is that the simplistic label "Gravel" encompasses a really wide spectrum of actual terrain and riding conditions. If you regularly bomb rough, rutted, steep fire roads in Idaho/MT/etc, your requirements could be quite different than someone who rides "gravel" in New Hampshire. Trying to shoehorn all designs under one silly label creates a narrow-minded idea of what a "gravel" bike should be (along with racing influence). For me, in the greater Yellowstone area, a dirt road bike with moderately progressive geo and a dropper makes a lot of sense, as a lot of the terrain I would ride a bike like this on borders on what could be defined as "mountain biking" more more so than "road biking."
As you said, "I had my assumptions about how a bike like this would ride, but I have to say, I've been pleasantly surprised..." This has been my experience with progressive geo bikes, and it's also been my experience with attitudes toward them - people make a lot of assumptions based on numbers, but with little if any time actually in the saddle on one. More riding might cause a few light bulbs to turn on...
So it looks like a drop bar MTB, and rides like a drop bar MTB. No surprises.
Nice that we have these options.
👍😂
I've been converting 80s MTBs to drop bars for years. I tried to use either a very short stem or go down a couple frame sizes to get the right reach, and the former is definitely preferable.
@@MrTaxiRob doesn't the front wheel lives its own life and tends to slip in corners when riding on the tops in this case?
@@b75723 I don't know what you mean by slip in corners, it's not an extreme enough angle to lose traction
@@MrTaxiRob I have installed my flat bar with very short and high stem to feel more relax and suddenly almost fell twice riding at slow speed on flat surface. It was also when I switched to this rigid bike from hardtail so I'm not sure what to blame exactly.
Everyone is entitled to their preferences. For me this is what a gravel bike should be rather than just a road bike with wider tires.
"Flippy floppy drunken goaty driving a shopping cart sensation.. ."
I do not need to characterize this phrase, I just had to write it down somewhere...
More, please, Russ!
It looks like the Cinder smokes, Russ, and those descents were somewhat faster than party pace and that's not a bad thing. it is all fun and games and that bike looks like a blast.
Interesting bike. I think another reason this is a niche bike is that if long days/long miles are your thing, high trail bikes are more work. When you’re fatigued is when you need a bike that will hold a steady line with minimal input and this does not look like that bike. But for mellow mountain bikey routes where for some reason really want a rigid drop bar bike, this is probably a good choice.
Wait you definitely got the geo of front end wrong a bike with slacker head angle & high trail[low fork offset] is slower to turn so it keeps the tire in same line ie straight even on road.
& visaversa are road bikes they are far more twitchy means change direction quickly.
I have this similar set up for a gravel / touring bike...really short 32mm mountain bike stem, a bit upright riding position, slightly flared 42cm dropbars with shallow reach, 68deg slack fork...
Basically similar to my mtb --> gravel bike conversion. Relaxed head angle, short stem, dropper post, 650b wheels.
'Industrial road complex', yes man, I appreciate the thoughtful approach!
I would be genuinely interested to see Russ review a current salsa Fargo.
Agreed!
Finally… this is closer to what I’d like as someone who often rides intermediate trails and around town. Even on my hard tail I need to get my ass way out over the back tire to keep from going over the bars on a steep downhill, on most gravel you’ll just flip over when the back tire kicks up.
Awesome choice. Will Scharen is a fantastic builder (and also a badass Trombonist).
Sounds like a pretty sweet rig. Glad to see some options opening up in the dropbar MTB lineup finally. Those of us who have been riding this way for a while have had far too limited options. I get the reasoning of racing driving sales but it is such a narrow lane and you may as well be riding a roadie in full spandex. Maybe we should get a dropbar MTB race series going to drive this forward a bit more....hmmm.
Beautiful bike. Ty Russ and Laura.
if anyone is going to mass produce one of these it will be Norco or Kona. As a mountain biker looking for my first drop bar bike this looks great!
They already did, it's called the salsa Fargo.
@@reedwhetstone9904 The Fargo is close, but not quite there. No accommodation for an internally routed dropper post and the reach is too short.
Reminds me a lot of Salsa's Fargo. I had often wondered why this bike was not more popular. Since I got my start in mountain biking, the Fargo didn't feel strange to me. Thanks for the explanation Russ!
I'm too low budget to consider even the wheels on these kinds of bikes, but it's really interesting to hear the theory behind the decisions made and how some bikes are put together.
I've been slowly working on building up a 2009 Gary Fisher x-calibur into an Allegheny Passage bike, using parts on hand from bike shop scrap piles, a rear wheel from FB marketplace, and a couple of scrapper Walmart bikes, and so-far it's been a blast. Haven't used it on anything crazy long yet, but I have set it up with a fair bit of the theories presented in these vids to try to get it just where it needs to be to feel good.
Thank you for the cool review.
I think the road geometry is still dominant because it fits most people in the market. Most people I know want to use their gravel bike as an all road machine riding lots of road much gravel and a little bit of trail.
Maybe it will shift but I don't see many people on gravel bikes on the local trails. I do see a lot of gravel bikes on bumpy roads though.
I think you’re correct in pretty much all your points. I, however, would rather be on this bike on the road - even if it’s a ride with 90-100% pavement. I just feel more confident on this design than I do on a more traditional road bike. I bet there are a few others out there like me - and I’d love to build a bike for each of them!
@@willscharen8472 I believe there are too few of these bikes on the market and they are truly appreciated. It is a "minority" of the whole "gravel market" but still a pretty big group. Just not big enough for many of the big companies. As Russ mentioned there is the Hagar with a similarish looking (to me) geometry and I am sure more will follow.
Great review Russ. I'd be interested in seeing how this bike feels on a "typical" gravel loop here in the Midwest. My guess is I'd need some time to adjust to the geo. It seems like it might be better suited for some of the loops I ride where its a mix of singletrack, steep two track and super hilly gravel.
I love that talk about bike culture and the tendency of bigger companies to be stuck in their ways… can you talk about this more?
Cool review! You’ve definitely held true to your goal of testing interesting bikes. Thank you
Really interesting! Lots of people try to ride gravel bikes on terrain that just isn't suitable. This is more what we need!
It looks (and reads) like an XC frane built with a rigid fork.
Which is an idea I’ve been having for a while now.
Some, not all, but some MTB frames, full suspension included, make excellent gravel bikes if built with a drop bar.
There’s a lot of truth in that. A lot of my research/testing for this model was done on a drop-bar converted 29er. But there will be compromises, whether anticipated or surprises down the road, with any sort of conversion project like that.
This build is kind of like my Marin Gestalt x10. Similar geometry and I also put Specialized Sawtooth on mine haha. It's a really versatile, comfortable bike but obviously not for everyone.
It’s nothing like the Gestalt in the geometry.
@@PathLessPedaledTV how come?
@@duduoson5278 the gestalt borrows from road this borrows from mtb.
@@PathLessPedaledTV Are you sure you are not confusing the Gestalt with the Gestalt X10? They're widely different.
@@duduoson5278 HTA still falls in that pretty conventional 70 to 71.5 degree range. Still uses conventional stem lengths. Reach is still pretty conventional to road sizing as is wheelbase.
I think Russ nailed it about fit adjustments. Not only is reach not really adjustable, but to some degree stack ( I often use stems with a lot of rise , as steering posts may be too short). If it fits, no issue. If it doesn't, tough to fix.
That’s true. These bikes are made to order, so I try to dial in each customer’s vertical and horizontal fit numbers so there is little to no adjustment needed later. Other elements like trail, BB drop, and rear center are fixed. So the Cinder is sort of like a stock model with custom sizing.
I like the length and slack head tube angle. If my wife didn't already think I had too many bikes...
You should give the Specialized Diverge Evo or a Marin DSX 1/2 a go - they're both flat bars, but VERY much in keeping with this Scharen
I’ve always hated it when I’d hit my foot on the front wheel (and or fender) if I was running flat pedals. I’m hoping a frame like this would give me more clearance.
Yes.
I think you could pedal that thing with swim fins and be fine.
@@cjohnson3836 it's one of many natural extensions of bikepacking...
being a cx mountain biker, I've been looking for a gravel like this for a while
XC?
Thanks for reviewing interesting bike! Also, I'd go with "Roadie Industrial Complex"
Great review as always Russ.
I love the quality of your videos :) Thanks for the review, it's a beautiful bike IMO
Well... It's to bad you don't reply to comments :(
Lael basically made this bike out of her old MTB & won Unbound on it this year...
I think we'll be seeing some more like this soon.
She won the the women’s XL category. The 200 mile distance is still vastly dominated by road/cross gravel bikes.
I think the frame has the look of the Whyte r7 series.
Looks like a Specialized Dolce Evo. Love that old school cruiser shaped frame.
The line between "gravel" and dropbar hardtails is growing thin....
A trend I totally applaud.
So...?
@@bsmithhammer yeah personally I love more options for bikes! Every person has different riding styles!
Did you see DKlein's video from 6/25/21, someone in the video was rocking a Supple t-shirts...CONGRATS to YOU!!!!!
Really gorgeous bike.
Looks like a great ride... Louisiana roads make me feel like I'm on gravel at times. .no what I can with my road bike or mountain bike... seeing a gravel bike in my future..
Bikes that don't fit the RBIC mold! Nice! How refreshing! Let's put some drop bars on a Kona Honzo ESD 63°HT next! I want diversity in my biking outside of 73°-71°HTs! Review a Pashley Roadster and see if we've really improved design at all since 1926!
Oooh feelin the clunker mention!
"When you change geometry to make something better, you inevitably make something else worse" I think is a saying attributed to Chris Porter, one of the early propenents of progressive mountain bike geometry. I think this bike is a case in point.
Lael Wilcox's Specialized Epic HT with drop bars comes to mind.
Hmm. What if we replace the front with suspension fork and put flat bar instead of drop bar. Would it be more effective on single trail adventure ride?
Troublemaker. Would you like me to ask my Hammer Race what it thinks? I'll be right back... Yes. My old Hammer Race Says yes. My drop bar Equipe isn't so sure...
I am a mountain biker and I need this bike.
I don't know about how "blank slate" it was, The Chamois Hagar from Evil has been out for a few years now, but happy to see some competition.
Personally, I believe the 68deg HTA is dialing back to what's more realist. I have to imagine before too long, the stuff coming out in the "aggressive" realm will setting on something around 69deg with around a 50-70mm stem to give the rider at least a little wiggle room for stem length.
True, the Evil has been out for a while and it's one of the bikes I looked at for inspiration. I do realize a 33mm stem leaves little wiggle room, which is why I offer a semi-custom sizing for the Cinder. I try to match the rider compartment specified by the customer, keeping the same contact points, but fitting them on the Cinder platform. Any extra stem length on the rider's measured bike gets transformed into a longer effective top tube on the Cinder. Vertical measurements come into play too, so that the head tube and seat tube are the proper lengths for the specified rider position and dropper post.
Is this content for me? My great grandfather was the mayor of Independence back in 1904. I’m in Ashland. I need to get a test ride on a Scharen!
I have an XC bike with a 69.5 degree head tube angle. The Cinder is 68? Wild. I would guess that it has a long offset or rake to avoid flop, correct? In general, I like a short rake for a linear steering feel, but this bike might change my mind.
Great content. Thanks!
Hi, Jon! Please look me up and stop by some time. I’d love to set you up with a test ride to see what you think of the design. This bike has a production fork by Dedacciai, which has 50mm of offset.
@@willscharen8472 - Thanks Will! I’ll get in touch.
BTW, 50mm offset sounds just right. I generally prefer a low offset (44 or less) for linear steering, but that’s for steeper head angles. My road bike has a steep head angle and 43mm rake, and it’s snappy. My endurance/winter bike has a 72.5 degree head angle and a 50mm rake, and it’s… not great. On the XC bike, I upgraded the fork and went from 51mm to 44mm, which works great for climbing and agility. With your long, slack design, it definitely needs more offset, and 50 seems to be just right - on paper. I’m curious to experience it when pointed down a hill!
Bigger circumference is better in going over roots, rocks but 26 is still the best for climbing and handling. My thoughts only and not hating.
I want to go to that hotel and ride that bike!
I think that this is the next level of gravel bikes. A bike with a geo like this is easier to ride even on nasty roads and paths.
Cool bike!
They are not catering to some mythical bike-industrial complex. Road geometries are used because they are more aero and more aero means better times in gravel races, as simple as that.
I also question how comfortable these bikes are in long rides, it seems like the drops are not a very comfortable position on these, and drops are not comfortable in general. At a certain point, if you aren't using the drops, might as well get a mountain bike or a hybrid. I can't say for certain, but when I converted my hybrid in the 90's to draob bars the first time, I used too long a stem, and it was uncomfortable in the drops as I can imagine these are.
However, if one is using this to barrel down a mountain like 90's era MTBs, this would be more comfortable for sure. There is a reason those MTBs now use this geometry.
" they are more aero and more aero means better times in gravel races, as simple as that" that mentality sounds exactly like catering to the Industrial Roadie Bike Complex to me :)
Drops can be comfortable. Not if you set them up like some psuedo pro. At that, if you watch any Grand Tours they are more often in the hoods than the drops.
Love the Jan Heine quote!
Surly Bridge Club with Ritchey Flare Dropbar.. 🔥
As an owner of a “progressive” gravel bike, the one thing I’ve noticed is the VAST majority of reviews are done by folks who barely ride it. THEN they talk about the “floppy” front end when climbing. Here’s an answer, climb better and be a better bike handler. Harsh? Maybe, but I’ve been riding my 66 degree head angle bike for a year now and climbing on it is an absolute dream. ZERO….I REPEAT…ZERO FLOP. So…Russ, thank you for ACTUALLY spending REAL time on this bike. I think what a lot of people are missing on is the opposite side of the spectrum and that’s when a trail gets real techy, standard gravel bikes with their short front centers and steep head angles, ride like shit and are sketchy AF. Thanks for a great review! 😃
which progressive gravel bike are you on... curious as I'm shopping around for something just like this... or a hagar, or other options??
It is exactly as my Specialized Rockhopper with dropbars
It looks like 2012 mtb geo w/ dropbars & 700c tires. It would probably be a pretty fun ss.
That loose [phone GPS?] on your bag flopping around made my stomach drop the first time it flopped. I almost reached out into nothingness to try to catch it! Ha you should get a gub brand phone holder, no more flop
I ride what I consider a very road like gravel bike (Topstone Carbon), and I'm waiting for a modern hardtail to arrive (Canyon Stoic). I'm super curious to see how it feels like since I don't ride an MTB for a few years for more than a few times (rentals, friends bikes), and never tried a modern (low slack long) bike.
Without testing it I can only guess how it feels like, but I don't see the point for this kind of bike. I think you get a lot of the worse of both worlds. A slow road bike, and a slow MTB. It's versatile... but if you can afford to maintain 2 bikes, (and most people can't even afford one by today's prices) this one doesn't make any sense in my head. It's a rigid XC.
Looks like this bike would make descending on a gravel bike much more fun but it does beg the question: if you want to ride trails then why not just buy a MTB? Surely the point of a gravel bike should be that it rides pretty much like a road bike and therefore makes longer distanced mixed surface riding more efficient than a MTB.
I wanted a bike that felt more like a mountain bike AND made longer mixed-surface rides more efficient. This bike is the result. If gravel is the middle of the spectrum, I'm just approaching the middle from the opposite side of someone who rides primarily road.
The cycle continues: oh cool, a new PartyPace vid... look at that scenery... I should go ride... *pause vid, ride 20+ miles, come back and finish the vid*
Have you done a review of the Lauf suspension fork or the Lauf bike with the suspension fork?
Nice vid and nice bike! I love bikes, all of them, but jeezzz this is my hardtail mtb hybrid i think lol
I like it! I'm not aero nor am I ever likely to be 🙂
Regarding geometry, ride, and handling, how does this bike differ from riding a hardtail mountain bike with drop bars and a steer tube extender installed?
It would have been interesting to see how this compares to the Cutthroat since that has a 69* hta & your Timberjack.
My cutthroat had a 70 HTA. It was pre geo upgrade.
@@PathLessPedaledTV ah that makes sense. Maybe it's time to also test out the new gen.
Chamois Hagar next? It was the 1st of these right? I like this style of gravel…but I am a mtb’er sooo..
Hey Russ, which Ergon saddle is it that you’re running?
we're about to go full circle, and before you know it, we're back to mountain bikes.
thanks for the review, there was much to learn about head tube angles and trail. maybe it's my language skills, or maybe brain damage, but I didn't quite get the reference to Jan Heine's opinion of high trail bikes. are they "the schiznit" or are they just "schiznit" to ride gravel?
Jan doesn’t like high trail bikes. He prefers low trail bikes.
How far is it from a XC hardtail MTB fitted with dropbar?
Maybe not that far off a current XC hardtail, but it's designed to work with the gravel components available. There are a few little things that add up to a lot of incompatibility between gravel (meaning basically road) and mountain components, like flat mount brakes, hub width, drivetrain, etc. Also, I think a purpose-built gravel bike looks better without the suspension-corrected geo of a hardtail.
I have a BMC URS ONE. 74 degree seat tube angle, 70 degree head angle, Trail measurement of 77mm. This bike is great. Would you consider this bike Progressive? If you get the opportunity to ride/test one I would be curious your impression.
Not really. Has to be in the 60s at least with a long front center and built for short stems.
@@PathLessPedaledTV okay. Top tube of 588mm, stem 70mm. Close.
Front center is different than top tube length. FC is from the bottom bracket to front axle. Looking at the geo it’s approaching something progressive but didn’t quite commit to it.
@@PathLessPedaledTV oh didn’t know that. Thanks! Front Center on this is 648mm.
With the proper tires any bike can be a gravel bike. Gravel is just a name after all.
Hi, whats with that sattle? Anything you can say about it 😁?
I thought only Kona knows the meaning of slacker head tube since 1990-ish. Better late than never lol
I always thought that Progressive bike meant long top tubes, long forks and builders/designers prone towards a obsessive dedication towards technical skill..... but then I realized I was mixing it up with progressive rock.
Is this bike similar to the Sutra ULTD? (Feb 23 partial review, when will this full review be done?))
Similar but different.
That's a beautiful looking trail. Glacier?
How does the geometry compare to the OG - Salsa Fargo?
Sorry, I had to rewatch from 7:47 on because I was crazy distracted by fearing for your phone's life. I'm sure it was fine and you've ridden this way many times before, but whoo boy, that was a butt-puckerer.
I'm curious how this geometry would be affected by a full load of bikepacking bags. Looks like it was fun for day rides, but how would it do multi-day?
I don’t see why it would be a problem. People do multi day bikepacking trips with slack mtbs all the time.
I've a drop bar MTB with similar geometry. It's a superb bike packing bike (I don't think any geometry will pose a problem for luggage though). You want to pay more attention to tyre volume and frame flex, IMO.
So, I'll share. While I cringe every time someone barks "Gravel Bikes aren't a thing, it's juast an MTB/CX/Tour/Blarghety Bike with Blarghety Bits and extra blargety blargh" - and on an on it goes. Yeah, it's a consumption driven society, and sometimes, the degrees and millimeters and marketing and tweaking can be a bit forth with the back and retro with the progressive, and etcetera with the such as. And yes, we can make do with what we have, and naught part with our hard earned cash-monies. But sparkly things are sparkly, yes, and there is nothing wrong with either innovation, nor the elusive quest for that balance of purpose specific yet broad enough capabilities that can make a bike ride dreamy, and stable, or fast, or packed with smiles.
I ride relatively cheap bikes, mostly out of fiduciary necessity. I purchase them second-hand, thrift, new old stock, clearance, and yesterday's middle of the road technology. And I tinker, and I fidget, and I dream. I rode all manner of 1990's 26" steel hardtails, many with drop bar conversions, and that worked. Stable, affordable, reliable, durable. Then, in about 2014 or so, when one was murdalized in an "alterslamination" with a motor vehicle, I purchased an overbuilt Surly Ogre; a monster tour/monster commuter 29" MTB abomination of a steel beast. Within two years, I had converted it to Drop Bars, and it is my 30+ pound gravel monster. I also still have my 2002 Trek 520 touring bike, with the widest 47mm tires that I can stuff into it, and it also see's mostly gravel. For that matter, my old ~2001 Specialized Allez with it's 23c tires sees as much gravel, single-track, and crushed limestone as it does pavement or tarmac -- so, yes, technically, "any" bike can be a "gravel" bike... albeit, to varying degrees of efficacy, comfort, stability, and safety. Do I want a gorgeous, and well-engineered Salsa Cutthroat, a Chamois Hagar, something like a Scharen or another lightweight, slack headtube, long trail, MTB-inspired, drop bar, stable stretch land rover that comes in under 25 pounds, instead of well over 30, and natively fits the wheels and tires that I want, and the shifty bits that I want, without a lot of fuss, and tinkering, continual adjustment, and trail woes that come with whatever MacGyvered bin of madness I've cobbled together to make my dreams fit my waking nightmare existence? Yeah, that might be nice... But how often do we think we've found the quiver-killer; the final utilitarian speedster family car/work truck/commuter doo-ji-ma-bob bike or whatever for our kitchen counter, only to find out, over the years and months, that it has one, or two, or five, niggling, nagging, minor, or not so minor, little things that it just doesn't quite do as slick as we might have hoped and dreamed?
This looks like a sweet ride; and I am absolutely down with the idea; I think this is definitely what is needed, for stability, confidence, and command of most gravel riding. Will it be the choice for racing? Nope. Will it fill all gaps and niches? Narply so, sayeth the naysayer; to each their six and a half a dozen of another. But I likes it. It makes much more sense to me than trying to get someone who really isn't gunning for the podium something to ride that just might give them a fair shot at keeping their clavicles intact. Cuz I hate seeing someone go down and snapping one of those... which seems far too common an occurence on the cross/tour/road geometry that is so prevalent out there, and I can't help but think that this geo would help prevent some of that.
I have a question, if under the chainstay of my steel bike have a crack should I weld it?,
So interesting !!
What gravel world did I step into where 42 tires are not very wide? Yikes. I must already need a new gravel bike because I'm tapped out at 40 in the rear. I suppose if you rock progressive geometry, it just comes with the territory?
650b x 48 is my baseline.
You really are my people. RideWithGPS LOL. No KOMs! :D
Also, my first serious touring bike was a '93 Giant Iguana, which was quite slack-fronted, I tried drops on it and it was twitchy AF!, I settled on a Xoom Brahma Bar. I ran that ride for 20 years. Still the best bike I've ever owned for all roads riding. 26x1.5 tyres crunked it out for sweet commuting, touring and rough road exploring. Quill stem rusted solid in the fork. The only reason I gave it away. Was still ridable, but desperately needed new head bearings. So many stories, that bike. Like a 90s equivalent of a Surly Trucker, only hella cheaper.
is this something similar to the Marin DSX 1?
Kinda similar, kinda not. This bike is designed around drop bars and the DSX 1 is a flat bar bike. The geo is not quite there in terms of being the "mountain biker's gravel bike" that they claim.
Is the Cinder Boost spacing?
No.
Reminds me of giant anyroad
They both have wheels :)
@@PathLessPedaledTV and drop bars. And progressive frames
Headtube angle on the any road is 72. Pretty standard road/cross geometry.
Evil chamois Hagar vibes
These slack head angles and high trails show gravel bikers are starting to learn the same thing mountain bikers learned: steer with your body, not your bars.
So, road cyclists very much don't steer with the bar, or rather they counter steer: small movements to rotate the contact patch and then tune the lean of the bike with your butt. This is incredibly effective and efficient on roads at speed. But it doesn't really work on single track or loose gnar, as even Jan Heine admits..
It's always horses for courses, and how a bike fits with your riding style and the terrain your riding on. That's why it's important to have as many bikes as you have room for.
@@TheGotoGeek n+3 aint even worth it. The price you pay for crap quality of the bike nowadays plus bike fit costs. Yeh no. Not worth of roi. Just enjoy the bike you currently ride and accept it has limitations.
IMO you only steer with the bar on city bikes, where you're almost vertical, and even then you shouldn't.
How does it do in a slow tight corner on the trail?
Probably as well as any hardtail with a similar HT angle.
industrial road complex!! haha
Prog grav!
Are those Sawtooths true to size?
Probably depends on the rim width, as there's so much variation in 700C/29" rims. Nice tire, though.
@@willscharen8472 Yes I know the rim width greatly affects the true size and shape of the tire. Sawtooth is pretty old tire design so I was thinking it might be 42mm in pretty narrow rim (at least in todays standards)
Chilliest channel on you tube.
Nothing like going for a ride and seeing all the strava weenies give so many fucks while I'm just cruising.
Bike for MTB fans. Just with drop bar. For relatively flat surface just uncomfortable
How does this geometry compare with a Jones bike?
*My first thought was late 90’s Gary Fisher MTB geo … accurate?
No. 90s bikes weren’t this slack.
Thank you! Super slack - makes sense.
I remember thinking the Gary Fishers shifted weight farther back than most. Would this bike be similar in that respect? It surely doesn’t matter; just trying to get a sense of what it’d feel like to ride.