Reckoning with Mountain Meadows - Richard Turley and Barbara Jones Brown
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- In September of 1857, one of the greatest atrocities in the history of Mormonism was carried out. Now known as the Mountain Meadows Massacre, a group of Latter-day Saints led a siege in Southern Utah against a wagon train of emigrants on their way from Arkansas to California. After the siege had dragged on for several days, and under the guise of a truce, leaders of the Mormon party lured the emigrants out of their protective circle of wagons and marched them a short distance across the valley before turning on them in surprise and slaughtering at least 120 unarmed men, women, and children.
The details of this evil are difficult to talk about at all - much less dive deep on - but at the same time, historians Richard E. Turley and Barbara Jones Brown believe that it’s important that we confront history, even its most difficult episodes, with as much honesty and depth as we can.
Rick has served in many roles at the Church over many years, including as managing director of the Family and Church History Department, and managing director of the Public Affairs Department. Barbara is the director of Signature Books Publishing and former executive director of the Mormon History Association.
Together they are the authors of a new book called Vengeance is Mine: The Mountain Meadows Massacre and its Aftermath, which is the second in a two-volume series of exhaustively researched masterworks on the subject. The first book, Massacre at Mountain Meadows, on which Rick was one of the authors and Barbara was a content editor, was published in 2008, and this second volume is the culmination of over 18 years of research, writing, and editing by countless contributors. Though brilliant historians have written about the Massacre before, these books include new research from documents and records that have never before been available.
As we spoke with Barbara and Rick, we were struck by not just their comprehensive knowledge of these tragic events, but by the depth of their empathy for the victims, and insights about how knowledge of difficult history can be part of a larger story of healing and reconciliation. They and many others have been important in spearheading efforts in recent years to allow for that healing, including working with the Church itself and organizations of victims’ descendants.
In fact, Henry B. Eyring credited the work done on the first book in 2007 in an official statement given at the site of the massacre on its sesquicentennial. As part of that statement, he said, “What was done here long ago by members of our Church represents a terrible and inexcusable departure from Christian teaching and conduct. We cannot change what happened, but we can remember and honor those who were killed here…We express profound regret for the massacre carried out in this valley 150 years ago… and for the undue and untold suffering experienced by the victims then and by their relatives to the present time."
What we hope for this episode is what we think Barbara and Rick hope for their book: that it can promote the same work of at-one-ment that is at the core of the Gospel by fully acknowledging the sins of the past, actively listening and working toward healing in the present, and looking forward to a future of deep relationship and connection.
Thank you for all the time and work involved in bringing this story out factually. Very tragic 😢💔
Excellent interview!Definitely going to buy the book.
It was savagery and cant be justified.. these were men of God..supposedly...
Men of God don't murder in cold blood. Men full of themselves and delusions of grandeur.
@@integralawareness Sounds like members of any religion!
@@geonerd not sure what you mean by that. If you mean that religion creates obedient people who don't use their critical thinking skills and carry out atrocious things in the name of religion, then yes. However, few religious people actually shoot strangers in the head and beat them to death with murderous tools. I wouldn't say that "members of any religion" have that level of cold hearted blood thirst. However, I do think that religion fosters a sort of limited thinking capacity. Religion asks people to not think about the particular beliefs and to not question authority, but to obey and to pray. Usually that never leads to a great outcome because it keeps people small and easily manipulated.
As it pertains to history, ‘we should drink deeply or drink not at all.’ - Rick Turley 1:07
Worth the listen!
Grateful we as a community are starting to value open, honest, and straight-forward communication so that we can foster healing and at-one-ment =]
Thank you for this book. My great grandfather is Jacob Hamblin and my great great grandfather is John Doyle Lee. I've read what has been out there which was never much information. I've pondered on this a lot. Often I think on why John Doyle Lee was the only one executed 20 yrs. later. I know he had a big burden of guilt in the matter, but it seems others would have some blame along with him. I'm going to get the book and thx again for your research and efforts to find as much truth as you have. I've come to grips with what he did.
I’m a Hamblin and have family who was there when Lee was executed. I’ve had the same thoughts and wondered why the leaders were ok with Lee being the fall guy. Also, after listening to this interview I get why Haight and Lee felt they needed to do what they did. The saints would have been wiped off the earth had the feds learned what really happened.
The failure to prosecute the others is explained by the authors of this well researched work. They cover these and other questions.
My great great grandfather was also John Doyle Lee. I have a copy of his diary. I suggest you get one and you can read his confession in his own words and also what church leadership was involved and to what extent… then also Read Turleys/Browns book and make up your own mind. I find it always best to get all the information and verify all the facts. I believe I’m the only one on this thread that has done that. You’ll find the very valid answers to your questions!
I'm sorry. It seems to me, he was a "patsy", like Oswald.
I read the first book last week. Just got this one on hold from the library and am excited to read it. I don't live far from the site involved, I appreciate that the Church used a small portion of it's vast wealth to procure more of the area for the memorial.
This book was incredibly well researched and straight forward. I was impressed that these two had the courage and character to tell the story as their research and the evidence that was revealed unfolded. I couldn't put the book down because of their narrative story telling style and the unfolding of this tragic murderous historical event. Kudos to both of these researchers and authors for leaving us such an honest history. I am always intrigued by the "other side of the story" as told by others who experience the same events. Wouldn't it be incredible to get a native perspective on this history. This and many other massacres have left wide levels of mistrust of colonizers in the lands once occupied by our indigenous peoples. Thanks again for telling this story.... it has had a deep and profound affect on my heart and my mind.
Beautifully said! I agree 100%. All sides of the story need to be heard
It was a horrible incident and should never have happened. But keep in mind that a lot of atrocious things have been done in the name of Christianity. It just means that anyone can do horrible things. We need to be very careful about putting anyone on a pedestal no matter who they are or the calling they hold in the church.
Brigam Young was not innocent. His hands are not clean and you won't admit it.
This is fake. The Paiutes have always denied any involvement.
THE FACTS: It was a military operation of the Iron County Militia, a regularly constituted military division of the State of Deseret. The Mormons had left the US when they came west into Utah, unincorporated Mexican territory. They set up their own government, printed money and declared themselves independent of the federal government. With the end of the Mexican War in 1848, western lands were ceded to the US as part of that treaty. In effect, the US government followed the Mormons out to Utah. When the feds tried to impose federal authority in Utah, the State of Deseret didn't take too kindly to it. The officers that had been sent to "govern" Utah were sent packing back to Washington. The Mormons had had enough of the "constitutional" treatment afforded them in Missouri and Illinois that ended in the murder of Joseph Smith and his brother. They were in no mood to be governed by the same people who had driven and killed them. As a result of the wild tales of rebellion, President Buchanan dispatched fully 1/3 of the US military to Utah to "quash the Mormon rebellion" in 1857. Brigham Young declared martial law in the territory and the Mormons were preparing for a military assault on their community. This was the climate into which the Fancher wagon train rolled. The Mormons wouldn't trade with them because they were preparing for war. They were frustrated and threatened to go into San Bernardino and bring the troops up the southern flank of the Mormons while the army units attacked from the north. I'm no military genius but you can't have a two-front war. The wagon train was unfortunately in the middle of a conflict they couldn't control and lost their lives. As a military matter, it worked perfectly. None of those people made it to the military outpost at San Bernardino. Innocents die in war all the time. War is hell. Tragedy but understandable. The winners of war usually get to write the history and so they call this encounter a "massacre". If Washington had lost the Revolutionary War, he would have been hung as a traitor and his skirmishes would have been called "massacres"...see how it works?
But here is the one major thing left out of this conversation; Young’s declaration that he had received God’s approval and blessing for this act. The lds clearly continue to support, uphold and revere a man who lied and bore false witness of God. It is not enough to acknowledge this atrocity, true repentance can only come with a rejection of the actions, teachings and practices of BY. Why? Because there is no record of BY’s repentance, only the scapegoating of the Native Americans and some lower level lds flunkies.
Flaunting your wealth is a sin......
That wagon train should have been a little more discreet.
For me it was like that our ward's young men made troubles that even the name of the bishop and whole ward got included even though they have no Idea.
A people of moral character would never carryout such an atrocity. A people of obedient qualification and obligation always will.
No reparations have been paid to the Arkansas families.
They were not men of God but as cruel as the people that had prsecuted them.
Thank You! Cleared a lot of things out of my mind.
Were there not a few priesthood meetings that took place prior to during and after the attack ? .
Of course! The ringleaders were all very high ranking church members, from several area towns.
The Church would have you believe that it was just "one bad member" (Lee) who ran amok and *somehow* managed to single handedly convince 100+ upstanding saints to shoot innocent travelers in the back of the head. In reality, there were around half a dozen 'leaders,' and they all seemed to agree on the 'final solution' to that pesky wagon train.
@geonerd I guess you didn't listen to the video or read the book. In other words, you don't know what you're talking about.b
To those who helped make this video...o lways love listening to your podcasts, etc. But the music overwhelms his wonderful voice. It's difficult to understand him. I love both...but the volume on the music needs to be brought down or he needs,to speak louder...one of the two.
How and to whom were the spoils ( cattle and money , wagons and goods) distributed after the massacre ?
Brigham Young. Murderers
Hey were did my comment go?