My Orthodox parish is pastored by a former Anglican priest - and we are Eastern Rite, and we follow the Old Calendar. Hearing you say this makes me smile…. My journey towards Orthodox moved from Pentecostalism… to Wesleyan… inquired into Anglican for a more ancient expression… and those steps were super helpful for me to ‘get it’ when I stepped foot into an Orthodox Church… when I saw the Icon of the Theotokos with Christ in her womb… I blurted out in amazement ‘The Theotokos is the Ark of the Covenant’… and the priest chuckled at my instant revelation when he turned on the lights. Haha. Trust you’re well. Be encouraged, lovingly - Cuthbert.
I am a TLM Roman Catholic who understands Christianity in an Orthodox way, as much as I know it. (Thanks, Fr Peter!) I attended an Antiochian Western Rite liturgy. It was fantastic! It is the liturgy that Vatican II should have implemented; that is to say, it is the Traditional Latin Mass said in English, which I suspect is as close to a pre-Schism Western liturgy that we can get and for which there are missals, guidance documents, etc. My one somewhat uninformed inclination is to keep out of a Western Rite liturgy post-Schism doctrinal and pious developments. Essentially, to restore what the Church in Rome practiced and believed pre-Schism. Through the WR liturgy, I do think the Orthodox Church has an opportunity to win over disaffected TLM Catholics who are being cast out from the modernist RC church for not converting to the post Vatican 2 church.
@@BryanKirchIt's about as rare as the Orthodox WR, if not rarer. The one here shut down a few years ago. It was only on Sundays, Christmas day and Easter day if the only protest was able.
@@BryanKirch There isn't one here in any of the 38 Parishes of Latin Rite anymore. But it's of no matter to me as I'm Orthodox. Even if I stayed with the RCC, I'd be Byzantine Rite.
As a WR Orthodox Christian, I think the biggest takeaway for me has been the beauty of the Western patrimony and liturgy. I quickly became burnt out on the Eastern Rite, and while I was and always will be convinced of Orthodoxy, I cannot deny that my heart is in the West. The parish used in the thumbnail is actually my parish. The first time I visited that church, I knew my search for a home parish was over. I knew that my home was in the Western Rite. Is there work to be done? Absolutely. Are we still ironing out things? You’re absolutely correct! But these things come with it being still relatively new. I trust Metropolitan Saba, and know his guidance will be superb and he will support us every step of the way. Another point I’d like to address, is that while it’s all fine and well for everyone to offer their two cents on the Western Rite, and while I absolutely respect their opinions, whether they agree with mine or not, I think the best thing ANYONE can do, is to simply visit a WR Parish. Talk with the priests. Talk with the laity and break bread with them. Pay attention to the mass. I think that’s how we can best get a grip on something unfamiliar to us, and that goes for EVERYTHING! Lastly I’d like to share an anecdote of mine. This year I experienced my first Paschal Vigil liturgy in the Roman Rite at this parish. I was blown away. The service started off in nothing but candlelight as we read the prophecies and the litany of the Saints. To me it struck me as “this must have been what it was like as Christ was in hades, preaching the good news, reading/reciting the prophecies to those who were there, explaining how he fulfilled those prophecies.” After the litany of the saints and the alleluia was intoned, the mass began. The moment the Gloria was sung, with the organ being brought back again, I was nearly moved to tears. I truly knew in my heart “He is Risen!” I leave you all with that ♥️
@@Nektariosthebased5150 I mostly didn’t connect very much with the liturgy as it felt extremely foreign to me, which I was prepared to suck up anyways. But the Mass of Pope St Gregory the Great immediately resonated in my soul and I feel at peace whenever the Mass is going on. I hope to move closer to my church so I can go for Lauds, Vespers, Adoration, and Daily Mass more often.
@@backinmyrightmind I attend a WR church & we use leavened bread...and it's not pressed down. We stand during Liturgy, there are no musical instruments used such as organs, etc., we have an iconostasis & there's no processional or recessional at the start & end of Liturgy. If the Moscow Patriarchate gives its approval to WR, and it does, then WR is NOT "wrong" & it IS Orthodox.
@@OrthodoxEthos With the possible exception of the Liturgy of St. Germanus (which was reconstructed), the Western Rite liturgies were not "engineered." There have been other examples of schismatic groups returning to the fold of the Church and being able to keep their venerable liturgies. In the 1890s, the Russian Church received a large number of former Nestorians, and they were able to keep serving according to the Liturgy of Sts. Mari & Addai. No one objected to it, since it was clearly an Orthodox liturgy, regardless of whether it had existed outside the Church for some time. The Liturgy remains venerable even if those serving it are not. With regard to Western Rite, it's not like we don't have the ancient liturgical texts, as we have manuscripts of the Verona Sacramentary, the Stowe Missal, the Gelasian Sacramentary, etc. all of which predate the schism. And these confirm that the Liturgy celebrated by the WR Antiochians is ancient and pre-schism. If you go to an Orthodox Church that serves the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory, all of it's elements can be found in the pre-schism texts. If a liturgy becomes illegitimate the instant that it's adherents enter schism, wouldn't that have been something known to Sts. John Maximovitch, Tikhon of Zadonsk, or the Russian Orthodox Church in the 1890s? If they didn't use this objection, then it's not a Patristic objection. It comes from outside the mindset of the Saints.
@@HonoriusOfAmiens It did not appear out of nowhere. The liturgy is a continuation of Old Testament worship but Christ centered and preserved by the Eastern Orthodox Church to this day. God bless you my friend
The British Liturgy of Saint John the Divine was used WITHIN THE CANONICAL ORTHODOX CHURCH until about AD1600 under Constantinople. Research done a Oxford university in recent years shown that English refugees escaping the Norman invasion, were given part of the Crimea by the Emperor in AD1072. They took clergy with them, including displaced bishops, and built towns, some of the archaeology of which is visible today. So the Liturgy of Saint John the Divine which I am blessed to use was used in Orthodoxy for the better part of 1,500 years up until about 400 years ago.
Thank you, Fr. Michael. For those interested, that English diaspora is also briefly covered in 'The Fall of Orthodox England' by Vladimir Moss, pg. 94-99. PDF is available online.
Something I’m quite interested in is the idea of applying western plainchant to the Byzantine hymography, just as when Orthodoxy came to other parts of the world local chant traditions were applied to the services. The monks at Holy Transfiguration Hermitage in Canada released 2 albums and did accompanying 2 volumes of notation using the Gregorian 8 mode system to show how it would sound, it’s very beautiful!
I'm catholic, and when I go to mass I feel like I'm in a prostestant worship, I can only feel the devotion that goes straight into people's fellings, not the real worship that our Lord deserves.Some things shouldn't be changed.
Well, he just gave his personal testimony, he didn't condemn it. I think there will be a process of reviving it after the next big schism in the Roman church. We'll see how it turns out. Also, the Saints quoted might have thought it to be a good idea, but they didn't necessarily bless existing attempts. Maybe we'll see good ones in the future, or maybe they already exist, but the parishes are small. Time will tell.
Patriarchs in Alexandria blessed female Deacons (not Deaconess'), do you accept that, or did you make judgement when you heard about it? Accepting something that the patriarchs of The Church do, and agreeing with it are two different things. Judge, yes, we are allowed to judge things and people, if it is done righteously and from the heart. Patristic Nectar has a great video on judgement, you should check it out.
@@St_Augustines_Cry8 Worship is revealed. It is given, passed on, from generation to generation. There is NO WAY around this. We have a 1000 year BREAK U N F O R T U N A T E L Y. Fr. Peter's father and mother were very zealous for the Western Rite *initially*. Fr. Gregory served the Western Rite parish in the Antiochian Archidiocese for about 7 years. Over time, however, the above inescapable truth came to bear in practical ways.
Great reflection. Father makes a lot of valid points here about the post-schism developments in the Roman liturgy, especially around the time of Trent. Most of the Mass in its essential structure & the Roman Canon in particular (Introit, Kyrie, Gloria, Gradual, Alleluia, Offertory etc.) remained the same for centuries from St Gregory the Great up until Vatican II. The Liturgy of Rome had a gradual, organic development, like the liturgy of St John Chrysostom et al. which in itself, is not a bad thing. But more study needs to be done to analyse which parts of this Mass are most in continuity with the received tradition and which parts are not.
ROCOR's WR is a little more Pre-Schism than the AWRV, who use a version of either a Tridentine Mass or an Anglican Mass. The issue is that Post-Schism Western devotions and praxis is slipping in.
Glory to God for the Western Rite. There has always been diversity in unity in the Orthodox Church. The Faith can be expressed externally in different ways. God works in many ways!! ☦️🕯️
@@wannabelikegzus I wouldn't call it pathetic, there is a real concern for the souls of the people involved. I just wish that we would hold to the traditions of the Church since the beginning and focus on providing the fullness of the faith in a way that can be comprehended by the indigenous peoples of the West. They invented an entire alphabet to evangelize the Russian peoples, and both Eastern and Western Liturgies were practiced during the conversion of the Russian people. I don't really understand why modern Orthodox turn away from these Orthodox Traditions to attack what has been preserved by the Holy Spirit at the Sixth Council. It's also disturbing when we hear from people who have never even visited a WR parish or know anyone who is WR who say that it should be shut down because of gossip and rumors they've heard on the Internet. This is neither Orthodox nor Christian. I know many Westerners are really turned off by the xenophilic nature of today's Orthodoxy. They view Orthodox Christians as LARPers who hate their own culture and traditions, and they aren't entirely wrong. It's also a problem that the Greek hierarchs are responsible for a lot of the anti-WR sentiment that currently exists, but I just can't hear a Pats. Athenagoras or Bartholomew say, "Why do we need a WR?" without finishing that question with, "Why do we need a WR when we are just going to reunite with Rome anyway?"
I find very little true concern for the souls of the lost in 99% of the criticism of the WR. The criticism is always just that we don't do some part of the Eastern praxis. It's never theological or that we've abandoned the sacraments or something like that. It's always, "Oh, well you pray the Rosary," as if praying the Our Father could ever grieve the Spirit.
@@johnbeckham9881 that should be corrected to online internet orthodoxy which is nothing compared to what actually happens within beautiful, welcoming and loving parish communities. When everybody is a theologian and content creator, it creates issue. Theres little control of whats out there.
I was very much attracted to the idea of the Western Rite in my first couple of years of encountering Orthodoxy. I still think there is a possibility of potential for an effective WR despite it falling out of canonical use - the same happened with the Liturgy of St. James for a while. That is up to the Church to decide. But the current situation is untenable, it is a mess. If a proper Synod cannot be formed to fully hash this all out properly, the WR will not be a helpful thing going forwards. What I would much rather see is a push for English language in services and the encouragement of chant forms that are more natural to the Western ear, and perhaps the toleration of certain pre-Schism Western pious traditions, and a move away from overlapping canonical boundaries. There is a desire for a truly Western expression of genuine Orthodoxy and that is being hampered by the jurisdictional issue.
The jusdictional issues can be explained by the fact that outside of Alaska, in Canada and the lower 48, Orthodoxy was an immigrant church made up of various immigrant communities all under the Russian synod. It was still in its infancy when the russian revolution happened and all of a sudden these communities became independent entities. It is a unique situation and will require a unique solution. In the USA, the Orthodox Church is too fragmented, liberal, chaotic with all sorts of different practices and calendars, democratic, not guided by their monastic communities for any coherent single church to develop at the moment.
Father what about the practice of the 150 recitations of the angelic salutations practiced in the West and by st seraphim of sarov? Should this practice be revived and promulgated?
The 8th Ecumenical Council (879-880) in it's Fourth Session ruled definitely in favor of a diversity of Rites. The Holy Fathers of that council proclaimed: "Every Church has certain old usages which it has inherited. One should not quarrel and argue about them. Let the Roman Church observe its usages; this is legitimate. But let also the Church of Constantinople observe certain usages which it has inherited from old times. Let it be likewise so in the Oriental sees. . . . " We would be wise to heed the words of this Holy and Ecumenical Council. Let us not quarrel and argue about matters of Rite.
The problem is that these Churches had their old usages yes. But the Roman Church doesn’t exist now. The Old usage has been so infected and changed with the schismatics that it’s hard to bring everything liturgical back to pre schism form. At the moment the current western right is still in development and does not have the fullness of pre schism Rome as Fr Peter is pointing out, there is a lot missing and much to work on. Sadly over time, much of the Orthodox ethos has been lost by the west. The Orthodox way of thinking is gone. Hopefully with time it can be filled in with in the WR.
@@premed808 That is good and a is a start. Are these books from Rome or Frankish? The problem is still that the holy tradition was lost. This is something passed down and cannot just be read or created from books like protestants do. There is still a lot of innovations which are done in western right parishes which even stem from protestantism. They are foreign to the Orthodoxy of Rome. I think this is something Fr Peter is getting at. There is definitely some hope but much to be worked on.
“To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from Godʼs law but am under Christʼs law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.”
Unfortunately what he says is actually not true. A lot of the same misinformation about the Western Rite. I have to question if he has been to WR parishes really. And have you been to a WR parish? Try the Antiochians. I suspect you have not been yourself..
@@St_Augustines_Cry8 why is it always some guy named “Augustine?” Could you try giving him the benefit of the doubt? I understand if this is becoming personal because of your experiences, but Fr. Peter is still a brother in Christ.
Everything that was done from beginning to end and now at the beginning of the end of the age is manifesting as you expressed. The Righteous Souls are also referred to as Saints. Theosis is the Goal of Creation and produces a fully corrected Soul. However, once it's fully corrected there's a time period associated with the position the person is in at their personal judgement. If one is seated or standing determines the Time Period until the Manifestation begins to occur. You are not aware and are caught off-guard so your position is what it is. The longest period is approximately 30 years and that would be if you are in the seated position. So as you expressed...a Saint (Righteous Soul) is coming (Manifesting). Hence, "He is coming (manifesting) and is already here" (has been completed).
@@dga2135 I was kinda hoping you'd just have a person in mind and not necessarily just overcomplicate that God has already had an ongoing plan because of his omnipresence but yes I agree.
To the Orthodox Ethos speaker in this video: It only takes One Deified Soul to...with, In, and through God Most High in the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth Crucified on His Holy Cross and Resurrected on the third day to Join the East AND the WEST... and the Two become One. It has been done and the Manifestation of the One Body/Church is coming and is already here. Amen. Wherever two or more are gathered together in my Name...do not be amazed at such an accomplishment...what is impossible for man is simple for God Most High. Amen. You have More Important matters to tend to my brother and friend in Jesus Christ. YOU MUST PREPARE YOU!!!! "LOVE each other AS I have LOVED you, by this ALL will know that you are My Disciples". Amen.
Well hello golden chain. So you meant to comment on the Holy Message shared with the Elder (Priest) speaking in this video???? "Speaking like a sanctimonious douche doesn't make you right". So to understand your comment we have to dive deep into the word sanctimonious and the word douche, no? Sanctimonious comes from the word Saint and in the sense of the appearance of Sainthood ONLY with the implication of not being an actual Saint. Easier said a false Saint or one who has not reached Sainthood yet . Douche - jet or shower of water for the purpose of cleansing. Producing a stream or streams of water. Obviously on a spiritual level it would be Streams of Living Water. Alrighty then what was intended to be an INSULT/curse is revealed as a Blessing/veneration So you know the insult/curse YOU intended goldenchain, but do you realize the Blessing/veneration revealed unto YOU. JUST IN CASE you were referring to the speaker in the video? Yeah so it is the same revelation for my brother and my friend in Christ Jesus.
Where did goldenchain go???? I hope you didn't get booted off due to your comment being so nasty. On the other hand each soul gets what it needs to wake up and smell the coffee.
I had the option to become Orthodox through a western rite parish. One of the priests there was an Episcopal priest. So I knew him from the Episcopal Church. The western rite parish was using a modified 1928 Book of Common Prayer liturgy with a few words changed to conform to Orthodox doctrine. I ended up entering the Orthodox Church in a regular eastern rite parish. Yet I’ve always had a soft spot for that western rite parish. It’s my understanding there’s a Mass of Saint Gregory that has roots in the first millennium. I’d certainly be more open that liturgy than the modified Anglican one. But in the end I prefer the eastern rite liturgies of Saints John Chrysostom and Basil. The above examples are Antiochian parishes. I’ve heard ROCOR also has western rite parishes.
Tikhon's and Gregory's liturgies are remarkably similar. I'd need to check our service book, but I think Gregory's doesn't have the Canon of the Mass and one or two other prayers. That's basically the only real difference.
My journey into Orthodoxy began in an incredible Western Rite Parish - in fact, I think the still frame photo you used in your conversation promotion is, in fact, that very parish. I found that this particular parish understood the Eastern practices, as much as they did their Western practices. I absolutely love the stillness in the WR liturgy… oftentimes I find the all the movements in the ER liturgy likened to a Pentecostal revival… St Peter sliced off an ear - and Christ God restored that ear to its proper place. With God, nothing is impossible… No where can we see a mandate to be Orthodox - you have to be Eastern. I don’t think all jurisdictions venerate the Latin saints. I know the Russians brought the Western saints into the mix? But by no means, am I an expert. Be encouraged - Lovingly, Cuthbert
Um, how are the "movements" in the Byzantine Rite even remotely comparable to heterodox Pentecostal meetings? The pre-schism western Orthodox Saints were Saints before Rus', if glorified before. Post schism, no, not in any Orthodox church.
@@LadyMaria - Hi there and thanks for your question… I think it would be best to ask if you have been to a WR Mass of Saint Gregory - as they have at Saint Patrick Orthodox Church, in Bealton, VA… they have a TH-cam channel - and they do post content there, so you could check out one of their Matins or Mass. I am not being disrespectful to the Divine Liturgy of Saints John Chrysostom or Saint Basil. I am part of an incredible parish of the Russian Tradition…. So. Obviously - I love and appreciate the Eastern Rite… and by no means do I think of it as ‘heterodox’ as I perceive you may have assumed and may have taken offense… Sometimes, I do feel, that cradle Orthodox tend not to know the faith as well as they should… and sometimes folks, not just cradle Orthodox - tend to move about too much when they should be standing still…. Especially when the gifts are being consecrated - no one should be approaching the solea to venerate and light candles - as I understand it. Perhaps I am wrong here… I have seen folks disrupt the Great Entrance - etc. in the Mass of Saint Gregory - there is absolutely no movement by the laity … before the consecration …. And post reception of the Eucharist when one returns to the pew. It’s very still and contemplative. Very rarely, does anyone move in the WR …. And approach the solea, or disrupt the Introit. Hope you are well. Be encouraged. Lovingly, Cuthbert.
@@realmccoy124 That movement is still not comparable to Pentecostals. That comparison is rather offensive. I've never seen any of what you said in any Parish I've been to or seen on TH-cam. And we sure don't roll on the floors and spout gibberish as Pentecostals do, which would be the movements of Pentecostals. I've been to the TLM. It was too sterile and quiet for me. In fact, coming from the RCC, I've found peace in the Byzantine Rite and this is where I stay.
@@LadyMaria - it sort of feels like you have latched onto something in your mind’s eye, which I wasn’t actually saying and have decided to take offense. Hailing from a Pentecostal Holiness Movement myself, complete with the rolling, the gibberish, the running the aisles, the slapping of heads of folks etc… my comparison was the stillness verses non stillness between WR and ER - and specifically the laity’s moving about… and not the structure of the Divine Liturgy. You think TLM is too sterile. It seems many ER folks do not understand the ‘sterility’ as you called in the WR…. And the Mass of Saint Gregory is in the local vernacular… and in the case of my experience - it was in English, with Latin and Greek interspersed. All of our experiences are unique, some are more, some are less. You shared you opinion based on your experiences. Who am I to think my experiences are superior to yours… I am in love with Christ God - first - and the Divine Liturgy is just a tool that transforms us - the Mass of Saint Gregory is equally valid as the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, Saint Basil… and let’s not forget the rather intense Divine Liturgy of Saint James - another ancient rite from the Eastern Church. Point is - Orthodox is Orthodox. And. Let’s not be so critical of the WR - when each of the jurisdictions of Eastern Orthodox - have slight variances in and amongst themselves. If Orthodox was merely a ‘rite’ - well… I digress. Trust you are well. Lovingly, Cuthbert.
One question, then. If the biggest issue is the lack of Liturgical continuity, then should we just relegate the Western style of worship to the waste bin (save for the miracle of the Roman patriarch repenting and returning to Orthodoxy)? We still use Pope St. Gregory's Presanctified Liturgy in the Byzantine rite, so why couldn't we use his Divine Liturgy for regular use? Western Christians have an ancient liturgical tradition too
The Presanctified Liturgy never fell out of use nor was it required to be "resurrected" or "rediscovered," but has been handed down to us by the Holy Fathers. It is also referenced in the canons of the Quinisext Council.
@OrthodoxEthos Father, what do you think of the prayer rule of the Theotokos? It was rediscovered by St Seraphim Sarov. If we followed your logic, we should not use it either.
@@OrthodoxEthos The Roman Rite is also referenced, and affirmed, by the 8th Ecumenical Council: Every Church has certain old usages which it has inherited. One should not quarrel and argue about them. Let the Roman Church observe its usages; this is legitimate. But let also the Church of Constantinople observe certain usages which it has inherited from old times. Let it be likewise so in the Oriental sees. . . . (Fourth Session)
@@premed808Fr Peter here is talking about a continual unbroken tradition passed down. Something people in the west can’t seem to understand in the comments.
@@vanfja The Kiss of Peace fell out of use but is now being restored in many parishes. Is it no longer legitimate just because it temporarily fell out of use? What you and Fr. Peter seem to be suggesting is that the moment some tradition falls out of use within the Church, THAT'S IT, it MUST be forgotten and lost forever. That's a very deleterious approach to the traditions.
My main rub with WR is that it’s a tradition as old as Dispensationalism. You can claim an ancient pedigree all you want, but it’s documented to have become an “Orthodox tradition” in the late-1800s. Or even an inversion of Eastern Catholicism. Eastern Rite Catholic: “We’re Orthodox but with a Pope.” Western Rite Orthodox: “We’re Catholic but without a Pope.”
I think it is a mistake to try and make the Orthodox Church only Eastern Rite. The Western Rite existed for a reason. It allows the West to keep certain traditions while still being in full communion with the East. The RC Church understands this very well and it is why the Eastern Catholics and Ordinariates are flourishing.
"Make"? The Orthodox Church normative liturgy is that of Saint John Chrysostom. The WR is the innovation, practiced by 0,0001% of the orthodox, unheard of by the vast majority of orthodox, and it exists because people are more attached to their previous liturgies than to the Church they're coming to.
@@oimss2021 And what of us that drive an hour each way to attend a WR church because it's the only Orthodox church for 200 miles in any direction other than a schismatic Ukrainian Church? Are we "not Orthodox"? Are we "less"? Are we not devout? I'm sorry, but we have the same beliefs as every other Orthodox & divisiveness is counterproductive & destructive to Orthodoxy.
I'm not sure the Unia are flourishing. The idea that there is a "bridge" to Holy Orthodoxy is not true. Instead, the Unia were a tool to poach Orthodox Christians to the Papal institution, a lot of the time without them knowing it was a Uniate and not actually Orthodox. Other times they were used to force Orthodox to submit to the Papacy or be martyred. And other times Orthodox jurisdictions were in distress and were offered a deal to become a Uniate or suffer. So the Unia are not a bridge between Holy Orthodoxy and the Papal institution but a trap.
From my european point of view, the issue isn't necessarily about the rite itself but is related to everything evolving around : not gonna lie, parishes who practice it are very largely eucumenists ones with bizarre ways of spirit and even heretical beliefs. It doesn't render a correct image of orthodoxy.
Unless the West goes back to the tlm there is no way Roman has lost the faith just like our lady said but I will stay in the western rite until our lady's triumph of her heart!
I've been asking for years: what is the goal of western rite? To restore a previous version of western Orthodoxy, as if loading a checkpoint? Or to baptize the current western practices into Orthodoxy? I have never gotten a straight answer. It has been yes, no, both, neither and something in-between, depending on who's answering. I also find it quite offensive to hear the liturgy of John Chrysostom referred to as "eastern". It's a liturgy for everybody. My local Greek parish celebrates the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and is it not a western Orthodox liturgy because we celebrate it in the west? I doubt the apostles told people they were bringing an "eastern" liturgy when they traveled into the west.
Because Constantinople was the eastern half of the Roman Empire and Rome was the Western one. The western half of Europe has been under the influence of Rome, either through the empire or the Church to this day and the Roman rite is thus called the Western Rite. I don't see a problem. The West (geopolitically speaking) has always worshipped in the western rite or some derivation of it.
It depends if you ask ROCOR or Antioch. Antioch is generally understood to take the “Baptise” ethos of approach to the WR. Sifting through what can be kept and blessed what needs to be tossed. ROCOR has best been understood to take the “reconstruction” approach to the WR where it wants to reconstruct it as it is thought to have been at a certain point in history. AWRV however is the pre-eminent of the WR, and will likely be the forefront of the Western Rite mission, as ROCOR’s Vicariate was abolished a while back, with the project falling to the individual bishops’ discretion. Hope that helps.
@@OrthodoxPhilip no problem! I myself go to an AWRV parish here in Virginia. If you happen to be close to St Michael’s or St Patrick’s I encourage you to visit!
Given my attempts to enter orthodoxy (for some reason it's just not happening), I had looked into the Western Rite. My sense is that something is not right with it (understandably so).
I believe a Western Rite Orthodox tradition to succeed without rot creeping in in the case of a genuine serious breakdown of western society on a political and civilizational level. Otherwise the influence of Catholic/Anglican beliefs are inevitable to creep in. This is just my opinion. However, we should do our best to preserve Western liturgies.
Father I just met you at our local liturgy, what a great honor. To comment here, you are a priest and theologian, I am a father and a husband and in a totally different field. I am not expected to know what you know.
Western Rite was only ever intended for entire congregations to convert. It was only ever meant as a bridge. There comes a time when you need to get off the bridge, though. --from an Christian in the Orthodox Church 20yrs... still unsettled the last few years as the only Orthodoxy available is Western Rite. As a frmr papist, it was like nails on a chalkboard the first 2yrs.
Personally, I hope to eventually have a liturgical tradition, which is distinctly American. I also hope my Orthodox brothers in Heterodox nations are blessed in a similar way.
@@LadyMariaThat's rich considering what happened in Greece awhile ago. Yeah, what a real great Orthodox society you have there, totally impervious to corruption.
In 1066, Battle of Hastings, The Orthodox Anglo-Saxon king, Harold Godwinson was killed, along with Western Rite Orthodoxy, by the Normans with the blessing of their schismatic pope, Alexander II. It's time for Western Rite Orthodoxy to return.
@david_porthouse So? The filioque can be read economically. 680 AD the Church was still in communion, one Church. The Great Schism doesn't happen for another 374 years, until 1054. The Battle of Hastings 1066 is 12 years after, more fallout from the Great Schism. Pope Alexander II wanted England broken and cut off with Constantinople. He had already been in squabbles with the English bishops over his schismatic actions. After the battle was lost, Anglo-Saxon knights and noblity, to avoid Norman persecution, fled to Constantinople.
@@david_porthouse What matters is what is in communion with the remainder of Orthodoxy. The filioque would have eventually been destroyed without Papal intervention
The West remained in communion with the Orthodox for a long time after the Battle of Hastings. Read Sir Steven Runciman's "The Eastern Schism," and the work of Fr. Andrew Louth, Fr. John Meyendorff, Archbishop Seraphim Dulgov, and Archbishop Methodios Fouyas on the matter. Also see what St. George the Hagiorite and St. Theophylact of Ohrid had to say. Macarius of Ancyra, an actual Byzantine source, dated the schism to 1170. The idea that 1054 was a schism comes from manuals of Western history, written by schismatics and not from Orthodox Saints. Likewise, the thesis that England ceased to be Orthodox in 1066 comes from Vladimir Moss, a schismatic. Why are we adopting ideas from schismatic historians and applying them, when they contradict the conclusions of actual Orthodox Saints and historians?
One could try to serve St John's Liturgy "Western Style", i.e. vestments, rood screen rather than Iconostas, entry and departure processions. Merely a thought!
Thank you for your reflection father! I have a question: could you elaborate on what is meant by the western church not having a transmission of tradition from saints to saints? I’m thinking of saints like Francis of Assisi and Catherine of Siena who convicted the western church to make changes. For clarity, the church I go to generally recognizes saints in both traditions!
I hope this can be discussed more at some point because I have so many family members that are WR. I choose not because my heart tells me it's not fully Orthodox but it's hard to explain this to family who think there's no difference ☦️
Father, if tradition cannot be lost and then reclaimed, then how could the priesthood of Melchizedek be revived in the Church when it had been defunct for just as long?
@@colestockdale5616 That's an interesting point. If Righteous Josiah could rediscover Deuteronomy, and it's falling out of use did not make it any less legitimate, then clearly we can rediscover portions of the tradition and bring them back into use.
The Western Rite is not strictly about re-storing what was pre-schism; the Vicarate are not crypto-historians sifting for what was. I attend a Weatern Rite parish, the one in your thumbnail. I was ER for 11+ years. I still regularly attend my baptismal home church, it was a move that took me out of it, but I am not Greek, Russian, Serb or any other Eastern ethnicity. I have always been welcomed in the Eastern churches and felt at home, but the blessing it isbto feel Orthodoxy connected to my culture... there is no reason that should not be possible not native to these ethnic groups. Their traditions were new once too. I can tell you first hand the interest I have seen in speaking to Western Christians who realize they will not have to LARP as Russians or Greeks, is 100 times greater than before. What you said has not been my experience and misses entirely the aim by Antioch, at least stated by the Vicarates documents, statements by priests and bishops. Antioch has identified things that are pre-schism but is redeeming post-schism things that are Western and edifying to salvation. Correcting what needs correction and disposing of what is incorrect or antithetical to salvation. We do commeorate more Pan-Orthodox saints than in the ER churches. Especially since ER, largely, only commemorate ER saints. The lives of Western saints is greatly important for Orthodox people and continued to the schism. St. Wolfgang died post-schism, but is no less a saint; the bishops of Rome fought for Orthodoxy at times the East had given in. We can largely thank the West for not giving in to iconoclasm (for whatever reasons that may have been) God worked through Western saints. I do appreciate this being less bombastic than most flat-out rejections and hatred I see from most. If this is such an issue, let there be a Synod. When you see the quality of the people, the genuine love and happiness to be together, the beauty of the music, this cannot be anything other than the work of the Spirit in my opinion.
We should not be commemorating any RCC exclusive "saints" as after Rome was cut off, they no longer were part of the Church. Before Rome's schism, fine, we share these as Rome came from the Orthodox Church but after the cut of Rome was final, they were not part of the Orthodox Faith. So if WR Parishes are doing that, they are wrong and that's why so many Faithful have an issue with it. To the latter, there are people who have that description in Protestantism and the Papal institution but that doesn't mean that their unique beliefs not shared by the Orthodox Faith are not heterodox. So if there are any post schism innovations then that is what we need to concentrate on letting go.
@LadyMaria we do not commemorate any RCC saints. Where did you get that from what I said? St. Wolfgang? He was martyred in the 1070s but remained Orthodox. The point is the West had Orthodoc saints all the way up to and after the schism. Not that the schism is easy to nail down. 1054 isba tidy date, but Alexandria remained in communion with Rome until the 1200s. Nobody knew in 1054 that the schism was the schism, just a break in communion. These things happened in the first millenium and happen now even in the Orthodox Church.
@@MR1895Cowboy Huge difference is now we know immediately when there's a break. How do we know certain ones continued in the Orthodox Faith and didn't embrace the Papal innovations? Yes I'm aware the separation took time, but these things we have to look into.
@LadyMaria the Orthodox Church, not the Western Rite, cannonized him. He is Orthodox. The line is not as clear as many EO like to think. I was very harsh on this myself, but 11+ years of study has shown there is far more nuance to the schism (which we understand better than the Catholics) than most Orthodox give credit for. Honey draws more than vinegar, and we also have a problem with biased polemics. WR speaks to Western people in a way that they are more readily able to hear.
@@MR1895Cowboy I'm not even talking about the one you mentioned. I'm saying in general for Saints. For many who convert in the West, the WR did not speak to them. I'm one of them. I've been to the RC Traditional Latin Mass before, and it was sterile and had too much quiet. Anyway, the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil no matter what tradition they are in are the ones who brought me home, and many others too. The WR should be an economia, of course, for those in the West who need it, but it needs to be purged of all Papal institution innovations. Bottom line. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Lutheran trying to tease out how authority works in Orthodoxy. Can the church bind consciences with its authority on new matters today if a doctrinal question were to arise? For example, could it bind the conscience of an Orthodox Christian on birth control? If a dispute within orthodoxy arose on the sainthood of a candidate, is there a final say? Can an ecumenical council be convened today?
Hello, Orthodox catechist here under Archbishop Daniel of Chicago 1 quick disclaimer: birth control is basically unanimously condemned by the Fathers; it is a scandal that some Orthodox priests and bishops teach otherwise. To your questions: yes ecumenical councils can be called (insofar as what we mean is a universally binding council of bishops to be received by the Church). It's not really binding consciences on something new; it's bringing the fullness of the Faith to shed light on how Christians ought to live in whatever situation they find themselves in. Orthodox teaching isn't a collection of teachings on various topics that gets updated as new things arive, rather it is the Church's expression of the eternal life of Christ which He gave to His disciples in its fullness. Authority is understood as the exercise of Christ's kingship as it is mediated through the Divine Council of angels and saints. We understand salvation to be the act of Christ defeating death and giving us eternal life, and making us like Himself and like the angels which govern the world in His will. All that to say: we understand authority to come from above and is properly exercized as the administration of Christ's kingdom in His name. Hope that helps begin to answer some questions!
@@mikekatalenich131thank you for the detailed response. Roman Catholics often accuse Protestants of not having any authority that can teach in a binding manner. Orthodox typically make a similar case when it comes to the canon of scripture and the correct interpretation thereof, but with there having been no ecumenical Council for over a thousand years, I don’t see how the Orthodox Church has a binding authority that is active today any more than any Protestant sect may have. I’m not being critical, I just never typically hear RC level the claim at you all, so I didn’t know if there is a mechanism for the whole Orthodox Church to make a binding, infallible statement to which all orthodox Christians are bound today. In a way, I don’t see a functional difference between orthodoxy and the Lutheran church in this regard. We hold only scripture to be infallible, but we look to church tradition and the fathers to inform our understanding of scripture. This seems to be the same with you, except you hold the councils to be infallible in and of themselves, and the patristics consensus to be infallible as well.
For me, the WR is a big problem. The church before the schism never adopted the WR. The WR is 100% catholic. Their rite is full of modifications, something the early church didn't do, that's why we, orthodox, don't follow this. There are some churches in USA which mix anglican rites with orthodox rites, something unacceptable. It's either you're in the truth, or not. I saw one day an interview of a priest of an orthodox church in USA on Roots of orthodoxy saying that for his church, some eastern orthodox saints are heretics, something i can't accept. You're right, father, the eastern orthodox rite has preserved its rites, since the beginning of the church, and it can't mix with the others. No compromise.
I used to live in a city with a Western Rite church (there were also parishes belonging to various other synods) and these members claimed they were using the Liturgy of St. Tikhon. What in fact they were using was an Anglican liturgy with a few changes made that mentioned Orthodoxy. It seems to me that these parishes "make it up as they go along". There may have been various other liturgies used in the early years of the Church but it was God's will that those liturgies ultimately did not survive. There should only be one liturgy for the sake of church unity,
@@georgfriedrichhandel4390 Your comment seemed like an RC unaware of his or her institution's many rites. My bad. I'm not pro WR, however if we go down this rabbit hole, will we only be having the Greek tradition of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?
@@LadyMaria All synods that I'm aware of use the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (except during a few weeks of the year when the Liturgy of St. Basil the Great is used). It's not a question of "Greek" tradition; it's the maintenance of ecclesiastical unity.
After watching "Western Rite Orthodox" priest talk and approve a lot of papist dogmatic development starting with heretical "saints" to statue worship to Christ's body part worship ("sacred heart") Situation is far worse than what Fr Peter describes
I think the problem is that a lot of WR adherents want to be legally Orthodox but have not spent the time and effort to completely gain a mindset of orthodoxy and remove the very sneaky western philosophy out of their minds.
Do Russians, Greeks celebrate pre-schism western saints? Why is it so important the other way. I’d even bet they probably do celebrate a lot of modern orthodox saints. I think western rite is great. God only knows how many people have been pushed away because of strange ethnic cliches in orthodoxy. If the bishops had vision the church could explode, and could have exploded a long time ago instead of being, “best kept secret.” John Maximovitch had the heart, he had the vision. “Do not let anyone tell you that you must be eastern to be orthodox.”
We do not commemorate post schism RCC "saints" as they weren't part of the Body of Christ, the Church. Sadly the Parishes that St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco helped to build in the WR apostatized.
@@LadyMaria Only the one in France fell into schism... But what exactly about the French Church falling into schism makes you think that Western Rite as a whole is invalid or illegitimate?
@@premed808 Did I say that they're illegitimate? No. Do not read into text what is not written. However, the Western Rite is rough at the moment and needs smoothing to rid itself completely of any post schism Papal or Anglican innovations. That is not saying something is illegitimate before you claim that again.
@@LadyMaria I think that agreement on a date for the schism would be one of the main things that has to be done. The date 1054 is extremely unreliable, comes from Western manuals of history (written by schismatics), and is contradicted by the majority of clergy and at least two saints, and one Byzantine Metropolitan. Alexandria kept communion with Rome until 1308. Nevertheless the majority of priests and clergy view 1204 as a more definitive symbolic date. From what I've studied regarding Western Saints and history, 1204 would certainly be a "safe" date, insofar as the majority in the West still kept an Orthodox approach to faith and spirituality until the 13th century. The latest Western Saint that the Orthodox Church currently accepts is St. John Theristus, who reposed in 1129, so based on that precedent, we can certainly receive Western commemorations into the 12th century.
such arguments is why I find it very hard to convert to orthodox church or get to believe it is indeed the original church. most arguments you guys make about the west honestly insinuates you are a small balkan country club believing everyone should worship the way as dictated by your own isolated culture. You are far too legalistic and rigid for your own liturgical practices as if liturgical additions were never made in the East the same way they were in the West. You must think byzantine notation system and melismatic chanting was handed down by the Apostles as well at this rate. And what is ironic is that you guys wouldn't have such stance or reaction to a German attending Antiochian Rite. That german is not antiochan, everything is foreign and for him none of it was organically developed from and within his culture. that alone shows how hypocritical so many of you get. If this is what orthodoxy is about, I can understand why it is the Christian church that is the weakest in successful evangelization.
This is the first time i'm hearing about a "western rite", no idea what it is. but from my understanding it sounds like it's something useless when you already have EO way of liturgy. i don't see the use of "rediscovering a second wheel" so to say.
I will never get the eastern orthodox superiority complex of their liturgy over other liturgy especially Latin rite, when we know the latin mass and the roman canon was made by St.Gregory the great, which is pre schism. There's no good reason to dismiss the latin rite other than their own ego.
There are two unanswered questions regarding Western Rite Orthodoxy. I would like to know if anyone on this thread can point me to a source that would resolve these two issues. 1. Have any specific liturgy books been unearthed anywhere in the West that indicate a predominate liturgy used other than St. Basil's or St. John's within the first fifteen hundred years? 2. I'm aware of the Sarum Rite, but once again this appears to be an amalgamation of many different practices. What is the genesis and purpose for these Rites if the East already had a fairly unified structure and practice elsewhere?
Priests stay shaved. Iconostasis is rare, dressings are still late medieval, chants are Frankish feminine and not probably as they were (google ensemble organum Rome chant). Better if they do the Divine Liturgy in English tbh and their priests grow beard
Also: they call their services "Mass", they often use instruments like Organs... and of course, Western Rite is not "one thing", it's not unified, and so this gives the platform for "innovation" and "choice", whilst providing a defense. The moment you say "look, their priests don't shave", they point to the one parish where they don't shave. And they never go after their own, it's more about the unity of these varying Western Rite "flavors".
Don't be hypocrites. The Roman Rite has been passed on from generation to generation, so we have received it from Saints many centuries ago. On the opposite, I would like to know where is the so called defense of the Tradition in the Orthodox Church, seen that the Greek Patriarch has approved women to the Diaconate. Oh right, I was forgetting, that makes part of the Tradition too.
Saliba (of blessed memory) did no favours for orthodoxy by allowing protestants en mass into the church back in the 90's. And the most egregious thing done, my opinion, is allowing proddy clergy to fast track into orthodox priesthood. This never should have been allowed.
Both western rite orthodox and bizantine rite roman catholics are comparable in a sense that they know they are a transitional state for converts from the other side to jump to their side (orthodox or latin church) they are ecumenical tools not a genuine attempt of practicing the faith in obedience. I actually met a western rite orthodox and he later apostatizedd and became roman catholic. I know this felling really well because I'm an inmigrant, I had two options when I arrived here, either I got fully inmersed in the local culture or get together with other expats, I chose the first options and I know I was right, that's why I chose a russian parrish and not a western rite one.
A mutual priest friend told me they are not Orthodox but their priests can become Eastern Orthodox priests because they are correctly ordained by EO Bishops. Antiochian Diocese.
They don't like you to switch back and forth in the AWRV. You are either a Western Rite Orthodox priest or Eastern however all WR priests today are ordained according to the Eastern ordination service.
@@acekoala457 I would extend that to their congregants, as well. Saying WR Orthodox aren't Orthodox because they use a different Rite would be like saying a Russian Orthodox parish isn't Russian Orthodox if the Liturgy is said in English instead of Russian or Church Slavonic.
The Western Rite was reclaimed by St. Tikhon of Zadonsk (Patron Saint of the Western Rite), and St. John Maximovitch. One of St. John Maximovitch's disciples, Blessed Dennis Chambault, became a wonderwork and an example of holiness.
This stuff is such a reality check. Jesus taught one way. The western and eastern churches teach two ways. But both churches say the rites of the other are kosher. Complete BS.
@@OrthodoxEthos I've heard from Orthodox clergy as well as members that the Orthodox church recognizes the Catholic rites as valid, and that the Catholic church has Priesthood, even though the rites don't match that of the Orthodox church. Am I close?
@@OrthodoxEthos If Jesus gave the sacramental ordinance to the Apostles, and the Apostles spread it throughout the world, why does the Eastern and Western sacramental ordinance vary? There were varying ordinances even before the Creeds were established.
The early Church had many different liturgical Rites. Differences in liturgical expression can't be equated with differences in dogma. It's the shared Orthodox faith that unites the Churches, not a specific ancient Liturgy, of which there are many.
@@arscheerio Because the Apostles handed down different liturgies. In the far east, for example, the East Syriac Rite was handed down ultimately from St. Thaddeus. It differed in some specifics from that handed down from St. Mark in Alexandria, but the substance was the same. The faith was the same. And the "varying ordinances" were united in containing everything necessary for salvation.
@@katherinegeorge2400 Why is it wise to "stay away from" our brothers and sisters in Christ? What would cause someone to want to avoid fellow Orthodox Christians?
This huge obstacle is people not having a mind of their own and not following the good in their hearts. You can find god anywhere because god is creation. I legitimately spend all my time in purposeful motion towards building my family and myself through joyful suffering in fasting, work(purposeful work!!), reflecting on how I talk and who I am on a daily basis. I am 22 and have salvation through god but only found it through facing my demons without the armor of god. I feel in this day and age we need warriors of god and not young men who put most of their efforts digging into religion and instead digging into why they are here. The word god scared our younger generation and it should which is why I talk more like a inspiration speaker because that is where it started for me.. thank you and please correct or lead me differently if you feel I am out of place for my tounge!
We need men who are humble and follow, obey, study Christ and His saints - not those who follow their hearts. The heart must be purified before we can follow it! This humility brings about courage to struggle against the evil ones. When one has Godly courage and humility.. this is a true man
@@OrthodoxEthos yes gods creation is all around us. You take my words out of context.. god, Jesus, and man I believe in the three as the Orthodox Church does but the world is gods creation and that is how I worship him by giving all that I am to this world by making it a better place on the frontlines by being a example. Don’t be afraid because someone is doing it differently
Tell me, in which verse(s) in the New Testament does Jesus, or his disciples, teach us about eastern or western "rites?" There are many mystical, ascetic, whatever words you want to use, throughout Christianity. It is a crying shame that so few who proclaim the oneness of God actually promote it. My Saint name is Elias. I easily got permission from the Roman Catholic Church to have that name. Do you think denying the perfect love of Christ is really the path you want to choose? Especially now?
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My dad was an Anglican Priest who became an Eastern rite Orthodox priest.
My Orthodox parish is pastored by a former Anglican priest - and we are Eastern Rite, and we follow the Old Calendar. Hearing you say this makes me smile…. My journey towards Orthodox moved from Pentecostalism… to Wesleyan… inquired into Anglican for a more ancient expression… and those steps were super helpful for me to ‘get it’ when I stepped foot into an Orthodox Church… when I saw the Icon of the Theotokos with Christ in her womb… I blurted out in amazement ‘The Theotokos is the Ark of the Covenant’… and the priest chuckled at my instant revelation when he turned on the lights. Haha. Trust you’re well. Be encouraged, lovingly - Cuthbert.
Glory To Christ
May God make us worthy of a fully realized return of the Latin Mass to the Orthodox Church
The Latin Mass led to a schism. It will do so again.
I am a TLM Roman Catholic who understands Christianity in an Orthodox way, as much as I know it. (Thanks, Fr Peter!) I attended an Antiochian Western Rite liturgy. It was fantastic! It is the liturgy that Vatican II should have implemented; that is to say, it is the Traditional Latin Mass said in English, which I suspect is as close to a pre-Schism Western liturgy that we can get and for which there are missals, guidance documents, etc. My one somewhat uninformed inclination is to keep out of a Western Rite liturgy post-Schism doctrinal and pious developments. Essentially, to restore what the Church in Rome practiced and believed pre-Schism. Through the WR liturgy, I do think the Orthodox Church has an opportunity to win over disaffected TLM Catholics who are being cast out from the modernist RC church for not converting to the post Vatican 2 church.
Exactly.
Im confused bro. Are you actually catholic?
@@BryanKirchIt's about as rare as the Orthodox WR, if not rarer. The one here shut down a few years ago. It was only on Sundays, Christmas day and Easter day if the only protest was able.
@@BryanKirch There isn't one here in any of the 38 Parishes of Latin Rite anymore. But it's of no matter to me as I'm Orthodox. Even if I stayed with the RCC, I'd be Byzantine Rite.
@@BryanKirch I'm not part of any RC diocese and I can't say for privacy reasons.
As a WR Orthodox Christian, I think the biggest takeaway for me has been the beauty of the Western patrimony and liturgy. I quickly became burnt out on the Eastern Rite, and while I was and always will be convinced of Orthodoxy, I cannot deny that my heart is in the West. The parish used in the thumbnail is actually my parish. The first time I visited that church, I knew my search for a home parish was over. I knew that my home was in the Western Rite. Is there work to be done? Absolutely. Are we still ironing out things? You’re absolutely correct! But these things come with it being still relatively new. I trust Metropolitan Saba, and know his guidance will be superb and he will support us every step of the way.
Another point I’d like to address, is that while it’s all fine and well for everyone to offer their two cents on the Western Rite, and while I absolutely respect their opinions, whether they agree with mine or not, I think the best thing ANYONE can do, is to simply visit a WR Parish. Talk with the priests. Talk with the laity and break bread with them. Pay attention to the mass. I think that’s how we can best get a grip on something unfamiliar to us, and that goes for EVERYTHING!
Lastly I’d like to share an anecdote of mine. This year I experienced my first Paschal Vigil liturgy in the Roman Rite at this parish. I was blown away. The service started off in nothing but candlelight as we read the prophecies and the litany of the Saints. To me it struck me as “this must have been what it was like as Christ was in hades, preaching the good news, reading/reciting the prophecies to those who were there, explaining how he fulfilled those prophecies.” After the litany of the saints and the alleluia was intoned, the mass began. The moment the Gloria was sung, with the organ being brought back again, I was nearly moved to tears. I truly knew in my heart “He is Risen!”
I leave you all with that ♥️
How do you get burnt out on the tradition of the Church?
@@Nektariosthebased5150 I mostly didn’t connect very much with the liturgy as it felt extremely foreign to me, which I was prepared to suck up anyways. But the Mass of Pope St Gregory the Great immediately resonated in my soul and I feel at peace whenever the Mass is going on. I hope to move closer to my church so I can go for Lauds, Vespers, Adoration, and Daily Mass more often.
I did attend a WR Liturgy….they served communion with an unleavened wafer! No thank you. I did not go forward to receive.
@@backinmyrightmind it is leavened, it is just pressed down.
@@backinmyrightmind I attend a WR church & we use leavened bread...and it's not pressed down. We stand during Liturgy, there are no musical instruments used such as organs, etc., we have an iconostasis & there's no processional or recessional at the start & end of Liturgy. If the Moscow Patriarchate gives its approval to WR, and it does, then WR is NOT "wrong" & it IS Orthodox.
Agreed. Liturgics isn't something you can engineer, it is passed down and transmuted organically from generation to generation.
Exactly.
@@Cyrus_II so how exactly do you think the Liturgics even came to exist in the first place? Did it fall from the sky?
@@OrthodoxEthos With the possible exception of the Liturgy of St. Germanus (which was reconstructed), the Western Rite liturgies were not "engineered." There have been other examples of schismatic groups returning to the fold of the Church and being able to keep their venerable liturgies. In the 1890s, the Russian Church received a large number of former Nestorians, and they were able to keep serving according to the Liturgy of Sts. Mari & Addai. No one objected to it, since it was clearly an Orthodox liturgy, regardless of whether it had existed outside the Church for some time. The Liturgy remains venerable even if those serving it are not.
With regard to Western Rite, it's not like we don't have the ancient liturgical texts, as we have manuscripts of the Verona Sacramentary, the Stowe Missal, the Gelasian Sacramentary, etc. all of which predate the schism. And these confirm that the Liturgy celebrated by the WR Antiochians is ancient and pre-schism. If you go to an Orthodox Church that serves the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory, all of it's elements can be found in the pre-schism texts. If a liturgy becomes illegitimate the instant that it's adherents enter schism, wouldn't that have been something known to Sts. John Maximovitch, Tikhon of Zadonsk, or the Russian Orthodox Church in the 1890s? If they didn't use this objection, then it's not a Patristic objection. It comes from outside the mindset of the Saints.
@@HonoriusOfAmiens It did not appear out of nowhere. The liturgy is a continuation of Old Testament worship but Christ centered and preserved by the Eastern Orthodox Church to this day. God bless you my friend
Passed down from generation to generation? St John Chrysostom and his contemporaries will not recognize the present day Byzantine liturgy.
The British Liturgy of Saint John the Divine was used WITHIN THE CANONICAL ORTHODOX CHURCH until about AD1600 under Constantinople. Research done a Oxford university in recent years shown that English refugees escaping the Norman invasion, were given part of the Crimea by the Emperor in AD1072. They took clergy with them, including displaced bishops, and built towns, some of the archaeology of which is visible today. So the Liturgy of Saint John the Divine which I am blessed to use was used in Orthodoxy for the better part of 1,500 years up until about 400 years ago.
Thank you, Fr. Michael.
For those interested, that English diaspora is also briefly covered in 'The Fall of Orthodox England' by Vladimir Moss, pg. 94-99. PDF is available online.
Stop coping the Wester rite is GONE
@@tqrss the Western rite is dead
Something I’m quite interested in is the idea of applying western plainchant to the Byzantine hymography, just as when Orthodoxy came to other parts of the world local chant traditions were applied to the services. The monks at Holy Transfiguration Hermitage in Canada released 2 albums and did accompanying 2 volumes of notation using the Gregorian 8 mode system to show how it would sound, it’s very beautiful!
Can you share the link?
Yes, please let us know where to find this!
I'm catholic, and when I go to mass I feel like I'm in a prostestant worship, I can only feel the devotion that goes straight into people's fellings, not the real worship that our Lord deserves.Some things shouldn't be changed.
Then you need to go to the Orthodox Church.
that's because at V2 they got Protestant ministers to give them guidance
If it's been blessed by the Bishops, Metropolitans, and Saints, who are we to judge?
Well, he just gave his personal testimony, he didn't condemn it. I think there will be a process of reviving it after the next big schism in the Roman church. We'll see how it turns out.
Also, the Saints quoted might have thought it to be a good idea, but they didn't necessarily bless existing attempts. Maybe we'll see good ones in the future, or maybe they already exist, but the parishes are small.
Time will tell.
Patriarchs in Alexandria blessed female Deacons (not Deaconess'), do you accept that, or did you make judgement when you heard about it?
Accepting something that the patriarchs of The Church do, and agreeing with it are two different things.
Judge, yes, we are allowed to judge things and people, if it is done righteously and from the heart.
Patristic Nectar has a great video on judgement, you should check it out.
Saints? What saints?
The western rite church by a literal saint fell into schism a few years after he repoused. Many such cases.
They are all falliable, like us.
Thank you for this analysis father
misinformation.
@@St_Augustines_Cry8 Worship is revealed. It is given, passed on, from generation to generation. There is NO WAY around this. We have a 1000 year BREAK U N F O R T U N A T E L Y. Fr. Peter's father and mother were very zealous for the Western Rite *initially*. Fr. Gregory served the Western Rite parish in the Antiochian Archidiocese for about 7 years. Over time, however, the above inescapable truth came to bear in practical ways.
@@OrthodoxEthos For example?
Great reflection. Father makes a lot of valid points here about the post-schism developments in the Roman liturgy, especially around the time of Trent. Most of the Mass in its essential structure & the Roman Canon in particular (Introit, Kyrie, Gloria, Gradual, Alleluia, Offertory etc.) remained the same for centuries from St Gregory the Great up until Vatican II. The Liturgy of Rome had a gradual, organic development, like the liturgy of St John Chrysostom et al. which in itself, is not a bad thing. But more study needs to be done to analyse which parts of this Mass are most in continuity with the received tradition and which parts are not.
ROCOR's WR is a little more Pre-Schism than the AWRV, who use a version of either a Tridentine Mass or an Anglican Mass.
The issue is that Post-Schism Western devotions and praxis is slipping in.
Glory to God for the Western Rite. There has always been diversity in unity in the Orthodox Church. The Faith can be expressed externally in different ways. God works in many ways!! ☦️🕯️
The hostility displayed to the Western Rite by much of Orthodoxy is honestly pathetic.
@@wannabelikegzus I wouldn't call it pathetic, there is a real concern for the souls of the people involved. I just wish that we would hold to the traditions of the Church since the beginning and focus on providing the fullness of the faith in a way that can be comprehended by the indigenous peoples of the West. They invented an entire alphabet to evangelize the Russian peoples, and both Eastern and Western Liturgies were practiced during the conversion of the Russian people. I don't really understand why modern Orthodox turn away from these Orthodox Traditions to attack what has been preserved by the Holy Spirit at the Sixth Council.
It's also disturbing when we hear from people who have never even visited a WR parish or know anyone who is WR who say that it should be shut down because of gossip and rumors they've heard on the Internet. This is neither Orthodox nor Christian.
I know many Westerners are really turned off by the xenophilic nature of today's Orthodoxy. They view Orthodox Christians as LARPers who hate their own culture and traditions, and they aren't entirely wrong. It's also a problem that the Greek hierarchs are responsible for a lot of the anti-WR sentiment that currently exists, but I just can't hear a Pats. Athenagoras or Bartholomew say, "Why do we need a WR?" without finishing that question with, "Why do we need a WR when we are just going to reunite with Rome anyway?"
I find very little true concern for the souls of the lost in 99% of the criticism of the WR. The criticism is always just that we don't do some part of the Eastern praxis. It's never theological or that we've abandoned the sacraments or something like that. It's always, "Oh, well you pray the Rosary," as if praying the Our Father could ever grieve the Spirit.
We have eastern rite from fathers, western rite from heretics...
@@johnbeckham9881 that should be corrected to online internet orthodoxy which is nothing compared to what actually happens within beautiful, welcoming and loving parish communities. When everybody is a theologian and content creator, it creates issue. Theres little control of whats out there.
I was very much attracted to the idea of the Western Rite in my first couple of years of encountering Orthodoxy. I still think there is a possibility of potential for an effective WR despite it falling out of canonical use - the same happened with the Liturgy of St. James for a while. That is up to the Church to decide. But the current situation is untenable, it is a mess. If a proper Synod cannot be formed to fully hash this all out properly, the WR will not be a helpful thing going forwards. What I would much rather see is a push for English language in services and the encouragement of chant forms that are more natural to the Western ear, and perhaps the toleration of certain pre-Schism Western pious traditions, and a move away from overlapping canonical boundaries. There is a desire for a truly Western expression of genuine Orthodoxy and that is being hampered by the jurisdictional issue.
Liturgy of St. James was maintained on Mount Athos all this time. It was never a dead Rite.
The jusdictional issues can be explained by the fact that outside of Alaska, in Canada and the lower 48, Orthodoxy was an immigrant church made up of various immigrant communities all under the Russian synod. It was still in its infancy when the russian revolution happened and all of a sudden these communities became independent entities. It is a unique situation and will require a unique solution. In the USA, the Orthodox Church is too fragmented, liberal, chaotic with all sorts of different practices and calendars, democratic, not guided by their monastic communities for any coherent single church to develop at the moment.
@@NoeticInsightSt James is also served on his feastday every year by the various bishops and Patriarchs, always preserved.
Father what about the practice of the 150 recitations of the angelic salutations practiced in the West and by st seraphim of sarov? Should this practice be revived and promulgated?
The 8th Ecumenical Council (879-880) in it's Fourth Session ruled definitely in favor of a diversity of Rites. The Holy Fathers of that council proclaimed: "Every Church has certain old usages which it has inherited. One should not quarrel and argue about them. Let the Roman Church observe its usages; this is legitimate. But let also the Church of Constantinople observe certain usages which it has inherited from old times. Let it be likewise so in the Oriental sees. . . . "
We would be wise to heed the words of this Holy and Ecumenical Council. Let us not quarrel and argue about matters of Rite.
The problem is that these Churches had their old usages yes. But the Roman Church doesn’t exist now. The Old usage has been so infected and changed with the schismatics that it’s hard to bring everything liturgical back to pre schism form. At the moment the current western right is still in development and does not have the fullness of pre schism Rome as Fr Peter is pointing out, there is a lot missing and much to work on. Sadly over time, much of the Orthodox ethos has been lost by the west. The Orthodox way of thinking is gone. Hopefully with time it can be filled in with in the WR.
@@vanfja We have pre-schism Sacramentaries still extant.
@@premed808 That is good and a is a start. Are these books from Rome or Frankish? The problem is still that the holy tradition was lost. This is something passed down and cannot just be read or created from books like protestants do. There is still a lot of innovations which are done in western right parishes which even stem from protestantism. They are foreign to the Orthodoxy of Rome. I think this is something Fr Peter is getting at. There is definitely some hope but much to be worked on.
@@vanfja There's both Sacramentaries from Rome such as the Verona Sacramentary and Frankish ones like the Leofric Missal.
@@vanfjadang i guess the council was wrong then, thanks for correcting it.
St. John of San Francisco already gave the correct teaching on this matter.
St John regretted being involved with the WR according to French translations of his sayings.
.......which was?
which was???????????
“To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from Godʼs law but am under Christʼs law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.”
Your experience tracks with what I have seen knowing people in the WR.
Unfortunately what he says is actually not true. A lot of the same misinformation about the Western Rite. I have to question if he has been to WR parishes really. And have you been to a WR parish? Try the Antiochians. I suspect you have not been yourself..
@@St_Augustines_Cry8
"This is my experience"
He's talking about what happened with his father's Parish in the 90's.
@@St_Augustines_Cry8 Did you watch the video????
@@St_Augustines_Cry8 why is it always some guy named “Augustine?”
Could you try giving him the benefit of the doubt? I understand if this is becoming personal because of your experiences, but Fr. Peter is still a brother in Christ.
@@St_Augustines_Cry8 You suspect he is lying about his father being an Antiochian priest? I'm extremely curious about your basis for this suspicion.
I feel a saint will come and set things straight in the western practices
He is coming and is already here!!!!
@@dga2135 please do tell
Everything that was done from beginning to end and now at the beginning of the end of the age is manifesting as you expressed. The Righteous Souls are also referred to as Saints. Theosis is the Goal of Creation and produces a fully corrected Soul. However, once it's fully corrected there's a time period associated with the position the person is in at their personal judgement. If one is seated or standing determines the Time Period until the Manifestation begins to occur. You are not aware and are caught off-guard so your position is what it is. The longest period is approximately 30 years and that would be if you are in the seated position. So as you expressed...a Saint (Righteous Soul) is coming (Manifesting). Hence, "He is coming (manifesting) and is already here" (has been completed).
@@dga2135 I was kinda hoping you'd just have a person in mind and not necessarily just overcomplicate that God has already had an ongoing plan because of his omnipresence but yes I agree.
Grant this, O Lord!
To the Orthodox Ethos speaker in this video: It only takes One Deified Soul to...with, In, and through God Most High in the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth Crucified on His Holy Cross and Resurrected on the third day to Join the East AND the WEST... and the Two become One. It has been done and the Manifestation of the One Body/Church is coming and is already here. Amen. Wherever two or more are gathered together in my Name...do not be amazed at such an accomplishment...what is impossible for man is simple for God Most High. Amen. You have More Important matters to tend to my brother and friend in Jesus Christ. YOU MUST PREPARE YOU!!!!
"LOVE each other AS I have LOVED you, by this ALL will know that you are My Disciples". Amen.
speaking like a sanctimonious douche doesnt make you right
Well hello golden chain. So you meant to comment on the Holy Message shared with the Elder (Priest) speaking in this video????
"Speaking like a sanctimonious douche doesn't make you right".
So to understand your comment we have to dive deep into the word sanctimonious and the word douche, no?
Sanctimonious comes from the word Saint and in the sense of the appearance of Sainthood ONLY with the implication of not being an actual Saint. Easier said a false Saint or one who has not reached Sainthood yet .
Douche - jet or shower of water for the purpose of cleansing. Producing a stream or streams of water. Obviously on a spiritual level it would be Streams of Living Water.
Alrighty then what was intended to be an INSULT/curse is revealed as a Blessing/veneration
So you know the insult/curse YOU intended goldenchain, but do you realize the Blessing/veneration revealed unto YOU.
JUST IN CASE you were referring to the speaker in the video? Yeah so it is the same revelation for my brother and my friend in Christ Jesus.
Where did goldenchain go???? I hope you didn't get booted off due to your comment being so nasty. On the other hand each soul gets what it needs to wake up and smell the coffee.
I had the option to become Orthodox through a western rite parish. One of the priests there was an Episcopal priest. So I knew him from the Episcopal Church. The western rite parish was using a modified 1928 Book of Common Prayer liturgy with a few words changed to conform to Orthodox doctrine.
I ended up entering the Orthodox Church in a regular eastern rite parish. Yet I’ve always had a soft spot for that western rite parish.
It’s my understanding there’s a Mass of Saint Gregory that has roots in the first millennium. I’d certainly be more open that liturgy than the modified Anglican one.
But in the end I prefer the eastern rite liturgies of Saints John Chrysostom and Basil. The above examples are Antiochian parishes. I’ve heard ROCOR also has western rite parishes.
Tikhon's and Gregory's liturgies are remarkably similar. I'd need to check our service book, but I think Gregory's doesn't have the Canon of the Mass and one or two other prayers. That's basically the only real difference.
Isn’t the Anglican one older? Because they didn’t go through Trent
Gregory's is pre-schism, compiled by St Gregory the Great (he was a pope).
I came into Orthodoxy through the western rite and eventually joined an eastern parish. I still visit my western rite church, both antiochian
My journey into Orthodoxy began in an incredible Western Rite Parish - in fact, I think the still frame photo you used in your conversation promotion is, in fact, that very parish. I found that this particular parish understood the Eastern practices, as much as they did their Western practices. I absolutely love the stillness in the WR liturgy… oftentimes I find the all the movements in the ER liturgy likened to a Pentecostal revival…
St Peter sliced off an ear - and Christ God restored that ear to its proper place. With God, nothing is impossible… No where can we see a mandate to be Orthodox - you have to be Eastern.
I don’t think all jurisdictions venerate the Latin saints. I know the Russians brought the Western saints into the mix? But by no means, am I an expert.
Be encouraged - Lovingly, Cuthbert
Um, how are the "movements" in the Byzantine Rite even remotely comparable to heterodox Pentecostal meetings?
The pre-schism western Orthodox Saints were Saints before Rus', if glorified before. Post schism, no, not in any Orthodox church.
@@LadyMaria - Hi there and thanks for your question… I think it would be best to ask if you have been to a WR Mass of Saint Gregory - as they have at Saint Patrick Orthodox Church, in Bealton, VA… they have a TH-cam channel - and they do post content there, so you could check out one of their Matins or Mass.
I am not being disrespectful to the Divine Liturgy of Saints John Chrysostom or Saint Basil. I am part of an incredible parish of the Russian Tradition…. So. Obviously - I love and appreciate the Eastern Rite… and by no means do I think of it as ‘heterodox’ as I perceive you may have assumed and may have taken offense…
Sometimes, I do feel, that cradle Orthodox tend not to know the faith as well as they should… and sometimes folks, not just cradle Orthodox - tend to move about too much when they should be standing still…. Especially when the gifts are being consecrated - no one should be approaching the solea to venerate and light candles - as I understand it. Perhaps I am wrong here… I have seen folks disrupt the Great Entrance - etc.
in the Mass of Saint Gregory - there is absolutely no movement by the laity … before the consecration …. And post reception of the Eucharist when one returns to the pew. It’s very still and contemplative.
Very rarely, does anyone move in the WR …. And approach the solea, or disrupt the Introit.
Hope you are well. Be encouraged. Lovingly, Cuthbert.
@@realmccoy124 That movement is still not comparable to Pentecostals. That comparison is rather offensive. I've never seen any of what you said in any Parish I've been to or seen on TH-cam. And we sure don't roll on the floors and spout gibberish as Pentecostals do, which would be the movements of Pentecostals.
I've been to the TLM. It was too sterile and quiet for me. In fact, coming from the RCC, I've found peace in the Byzantine Rite and this is where I stay.
@@LadyMaria - it sort of feels like you have latched onto something in your mind’s eye, which I wasn’t actually saying and have decided to take offense. Hailing from a Pentecostal Holiness Movement myself, complete with the rolling, the gibberish, the running the aisles, the slapping of heads of folks etc… my comparison was the stillness verses non stillness between WR and ER - and specifically the laity’s moving about… and not the structure of the Divine Liturgy.
You think TLM is too sterile. It seems many ER folks do not understand the ‘sterility’ as you called in the WR…. And the Mass of Saint Gregory is in the local vernacular… and in the case of my experience - it was in English, with Latin and Greek interspersed.
All of our experiences are unique, some are more, some are less. You shared you opinion based on your experiences. Who am I to think my experiences are superior to yours…
I am in love with Christ God - first - and the Divine Liturgy is just a tool that transforms us - the Mass of Saint Gregory is equally valid as the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, Saint Basil… and let’s not forget the rather intense Divine Liturgy of Saint James - another ancient rite from the Eastern Church.
Point is - Orthodox is Orthodox. And. Let’s not be so critical of the WR - when each of the jurisdictions of Eastern Orthodox - have slight variances in and amongst themselves.
If Orthodox was merely a ‘rite’ - well… I digress. Trust you are well. Lovingly, Cuthbert.
Does anyone know where I can hear the version of Axion Estin that plays at the end?
Mount Athos Channel, one of the "Cell of St John the Theologian" playlists. It's the first video.
@@wxwtf3c6bi THANK YOU God bless!
One question, then. If the biggest issue is the lack of Liturgical continuity, then should we just relegate the Western style of worship to the waste bin (save for the miracle of the Roman patriarch repenting and returning to Orthodoxy)? We still use Pope St. Gregory's Presanctified Liturgy in the Byzantine rite, so why couldn't we use his Divine Liturgy for regular use? Western Christians have an ancient liturgical tradition too
The Presanctified Liturgy never fell out of use nor was it required to be "resurrected" or "rediscovered," but has been handed down to us by the Holy Fathers. It is also referenced in the canons of the Quinisext Council.
@OrthodoxEthos Father, what do you think of the prayer rule of the Theotokos? It was rediscovered by St Seraphim Sarov. If we followed your logic, we should not use it either.
@@OrthodoxEthos The Roman Rite is also referenced, and affirmed, by the 8th Ecumenical Council: Every Church has certain old usages which it has inherited. One should not quarrel and argue about them. Let the Roman Church observe its usages; this is legitimate. But let also the Church of Constantinople observe certain usages which it has inherited from old times. Let it be likewise so in the Oriental sees. . . . (Fourth Session)
@@premed808Fr Peter here is talking about a continual unbroken tradition passed down. Something people in the west can’t seem to understand in the comments.
@@vanfja The Kiss of Peace fell out of use but is now being restored in many parishes. Is it no longer legitimate just because it temporarily fell out of use? What you and Fr. Peter seem to be suggesting is that the moment some tradition falls out of use within the Church, THAT'S IT, it MUST be forgotten and lost forever. That's a very deleterious approach to the traditions.
My main rub with WR is that it’s a tradition as old as Dispensationalism. You can claim an ancient pedigree all you want, but it’s documented to have become an “Orthodox tradition” in the late-1800s. Or even an inversion of Eastern Catholicism.
Eastern Rite Catholic:
“We’re Orthodox but with a Pope.”
Western Rite Orthodox: “We’re Catholic but without a Pope.”
I think it is a mistake to try and make the Orthodox Church only Eastern Rite. The Western Rite existed for a reason. It allows the West to keep certain traditions while still being in full communion with the East. The RC Church understands this very well and it is why the Eastern Catholics and Ordinariates are flourishing.
They are flourishing in comparison to the Novus Ordo parishes
"Make"? The Orthodox Church normative liturgy is that of Saint John Chrysostom. The WR is the innovation, practiced by 0,0001% of the orthodox, unheard of by the vast majority of orthodox, and it exists because people are more attached to their previous liturgies than to the Church they're coming to.
@@oimss2021 And what of us that drive an hour each way to attend a WR church because it's the only Orthodox church for 200 miles in any direction other than a schismatic Ukrainian Church? Are we "not Orthodox"? Are we "less"? Are we not devout? I'm sorry, but we have the same beliefs as every other Orthodox & divisiveness is counterproductive & destructive to Orthodoxy.
@@oimss2021 It is now a made up fantasy for those who wish to hover between Orthodoxy and heresy.
I'm not sure the Unia are flourishing.
The idea that there is a "bridge" to Holy Orthodoxy is not true. Instead, the Unia were a tool to poach Orthodox Christians to the Papal institution, a lot of the time without them knowing it was a Uniate and not actually Orthodox. Other times they were used to force Orthodox to submit to the Papacy or be martyred. And other times Orthodox jurisdictions were in distress and were offered a deal to become a Uniate or suffer.
So the Unia are not a bridge between Holy Orthodoxy and the Papal institution but a trap.
From my european point of view, the issue isn't necessarily about the rite itself but is related to everything evolving around : not gonna lie, parishes who practice it are very largely eucumenists ones with bizarre ways of spirit and even heretical beliefs. It doesn't render a correct image of orthodoxy.
I Love the Western rite Orthodoxy.
Unless the West goes back to the tlm there is no way Roman has lost the faith just like our lady said but I will stay in the western rite until our lady's triumph of her heart!
I've been asking for years: what is the goal of western rite? To restore a previous version of western Orthodoxy, as if loading a checkpoint? Or to baptize the current western practices into Orthodoxy? I have never gotten a straight answer. It has been yes, no, both, neither and something in-between, depending on who's answering. I also find it quite offensive to hear the liturgy of John Chrysostom referred to as "eastern". It's a liturgy for everybody. My local Greek parish celebrates the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and is it not a western Orthodox liturgy because we celebrate it in the west? I doubt the apostles told people they were bringing an "eastern" liturgy when they traveled into the west.
Because Constantinople was the eastern half of the Roman Empire and Rome was the Western one. The western half of Europe has been under the influence of Rome, either through the empire or the Church to this day and the Roman rite is thus called the Western Rite. I don't see a problem. The West (geopolitically speaking) has always worshipped in the western rite or some derivation of it.
It depends if you ask ROCOR or Antioch. Antioch is generally understood to take the “Baptise” ethos of approach to the WR. Sifting through what can be kept and blessed what needs to be tossed. ROCOR has best been understood to take the “reconstruction” approach to the WR where it wants to reconstruct it as it is thought to have been at a certain point in history. AWRV however is the pre-eminent of the WR, and will likely be the forefront of the Western Rite mission, as ROCOR’s Vicariate was abolished a while back, with the project falling to the individual bishops’ discretion. Hope that helps.
@@HonoriusOfAmiens Thant does help and is quite interesting. Thank you.
@@OrthodoxPhilip no problem! I myself go to an AWRV parish here in Virginia. If you happen to be close to St Michael’s or St Patrick’s I encourage you to visit!
I also find it offensive to hear the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great referred to as "western." It is a liturgy for everybody.
Given my attempts to enter orthodoxy (for some reason it's just not happening), I had looked into the Western Rite. My sense is that something is not right with it (understandably so).
I believe a Western Rite Orthodox tradition to succeed without rot creeping in in the case of a genuine serious breakdown of western society on a political and civilizational level. Otherwise the influence of Catholic/Anglican beliefs are inevitable to creep in. This is just my opinion. However, we should do our best to preserve Western liturgies.
Father I just met you at our local liturgy, what a great honor. To comment here, you are a priest and theologian, I am a father and a husband and in a totally different field. I am not expected to know what you know.
Western Rite was only ever intended for entire congregations to convert.
It was only ever meant as a bridge. There comes a time when you need to get off the bridge, though.
--from an Christian in the Orthodox Church 20yrs... still unsettled the last few years as the only Orthodoxy available is Western Rite.
As a frmr papist, it was like nails on a chalkboard the first 2yrs.
Thank you for this!
Personally, I hope to eventually have a liturgical tradition, which is distinctly American. I also hope my Orthodox brothers in Heterodox nations are blessed in a similar way.
The Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (and St. Basil) is all we need.
We've seen how American bred religions look like. Very corporate and sterile.
@@LadyMariaThat's rich considering what happened in Greece awhile ago. Yeah, what a real great Orthodox society you have there, totally impervious to corruption.
@@Cobruh_Commander Again, American bred RELIGIONS. Learn to read. If you're not Orthodox then it's of no use to reply.
@@LadyMaria Honestly, you need to shut up. That isn't how liturgical traditions function, and neither is that how they are formed.
In 1066, Battle of Hastings, The Orthodox Anglo-Saxon king, Harold Godwinson was killed, along with Western Rite Orthodoxy, by the Normans with the blessing of their schismatic pope, Alexander II. It's time for Western Rite Orthodoxy to return.
amen
@david_porthouse
So? The filioque can be read economically. 680 AD the Church was still in communion, one Church. The Great Schism doesn't happen for another 374 years, until 1054. The Battle of Hastings 1066 is 12 years after, more fallout from the Great Schism. Pope Alexander II wanted England broken and cut off with Constantinople. He had already been in squabbles with the English bishops over his schismatic actions. After the battle was lost, Anglo-Saxon knights and noblity, to avoid Norman persecution, fled to Constantinople.
@david_porthouse once again... so what? 374 years with the with the filioque and still in communion with Orthodox as one Church.
@@david_porthouse What matters is what is in communion with the remainder of Orthodoxy. The filioque would have eventually been destroyed without Papal intervention
The West remained in communion with the Orthodox for a long time after the Battle of Hastings. Read Sir Steven Runciman's "The Eastern Schism," and the work of Fr. Andrew Louth, Fr. John Meyendorff, Archbishop Seraphim Dulgov, and Archbishop Methodios Fouyas on the matter. Also see what St. George the Hagiorite and St. Theophylact of Ohrid had to say. Macarius of Ancyra, an actual Byzantine source, dated the schism to 1170. The idea that 1054 was a schism comes from manuals of Western history, written by schismatics and not from Orthodox Saints. Likewise, the thesis that England ceased to be Orthodox in 1066 comes from Vladimir Moss, a schismatic. Why are we adopting ideas from schismatic historians and applying them, when they contradict the conclusions of actual Orthodox Saints and historians?
One could try to serve St John's Liturgy "Western Style", i.e. vestments, rood screen rather than Iconostas, entry and departure processions. Merely a thought!
Thank you Santa for passing on the comments from the peanut gallery. Aren't you supposed to be building your naughty & nice list "Old St Nick"????
Thank you for your reflection father! I have a question: could you elaborate on what is meant by the western church not having a transmission of tradition from saints to saints? I’m thinking of saints like Francis of Assisi and Catherine of Siena who convicted the western church to make changes. For clarity, the church I go to generally recognizes saints in both traditions!
An Orthodox WR Parish recognizes those RCC "saints"?
@@LadyMaria an Orthodox Church in communion with the Pope (Ruthenian Catholic)
@@adamvanscooter7772 That's not Orthodox, it's Eastern "Catholic" of the Papal institution. There are NO Orthodox in communion with the Pope.
Im greek orthdox ☦️
Thank you father
AOM doing it right
Many of us Orthodox love the WR - for all the Wrong Reasons.
I hope this can be discussed more at some point because I have so many family members that are WR. I choose not because my heart tells me it's not fully Orthodox but it's hard to explain this to family who think there's no difference ☦️
The western orthodox tradition and liturgy existed before the schism and lived through up until now.
Where did it live up to now?
@@FirstnameLastname-py3bc In the communities that God called back to Orthodoxy.
Father, if tradition cannot be lost and then reclaimed, then how could the priesthood of Melchizedek be revived in the Church when it had been defunct for just as long?
Oops I lost the book of the Law.
When did it become defunct
@@colestockdale5616 That's an interesting point. If Righteous Josiah could rediscover Deuteronomy, and it's falling out of use did not make it any less legitimate, then clearly we can rediscover portions of the tradition and bring them back into use.
Father Heers are you saying the western right Orthodox Church is not in communion with the Eastern Orthodox?
No, he’s not. But he is expressing concerns based on his experience with it.
@@littlefishbigmountain Do you know like what?
@@believer8793I had to re-listen to the video to understand. Definitely worth while, he explains what.
The Western Rite is not strictly about re-storing what was pre-schism; the Vicarate are not crypto-historians sifting for what was.
I attend a Weatern Rite parish, the one in your thumbnail. I was ER for 11+ years. I still regularly attend my baptismal home church, it was a move that took me out of it, but I am not Greek, Russian, Serb or any other Eastern ethnicity. I have always been welcomed in the Eastern churches and felt at home, but the blessing it isbto feel Orthodoxy connected to my culture... there is no reason that should not be possible not native to these ethnic groups. Their traditions were new once too. I can tell you first hand the interest I have seen in speaking to Western Christians who realize they will not have to LARP as Russians or Greeks, is 100 times greater than before. What you said has not been my experience and misses entirely the aim by Antioch, at least stated by the Vicarates documents, statements by priests and bishops. Antioch has identified things that are pre-schism but is redeeming post-schism things that are Western and edifying to salvation. Correcting what needs correction and disposing of what is incorrect or antithetical to salvation. We do commeorate more Pan-Orthodox saints than in the ER churches. Especially since ER, largely, only commemorate ER saints. The lives of Western saints is greatly important for Orthodox people and continued to the schism. St. Wolfgang died post-schism, but is no less a saint; the bishops of Rome fought for Orthodoxy at times the East had given in. We can largely thank the West for not giving in to iconoclasm (for whatever reasons that may have been) God worked through Western saints. I do appreciate this being less bombastic than most flat-out rejections and hatred I see from most.
If this is such an issue, let there be a Synod.
When you see the quality of the people, the genuine love and happiness to be together, the beauty of the music, this cannot be anything other than the work of the Spirit in my opinion.
We should not be commemorating any RCC exclusive "saints" as after Rome was cut off, they no longer were part of the Church. Before Rome's schism, fine, we share these as Rome came from the Orthodox Church but after the cut of Rome was final, they were not part of the Orthodox Faith. So if WR Parishes are doing that, they are wrong and that's why so many Faithful have an issue with it.
To the latter, there are people who have that description in Protestantism and the Papal institution but that doesn't mean that their unique beliefs not shared by the Orthodox Faith are not heterodox. So if there are any post schism innovations then that is what we need to concentrate on letting go.
@LadyMaria we do not commemorate any RCC saints. Where did you get that from what I said? St. Wolfgang? He was martyred in the 1070s but remained Orthodox. The point is the West had Orthodoc saints all the way up to and after the schism.
Not that the schism is easy to nail down. 1054 isba tidy date, but Alexandria remained in communion with Rome until the 1200s.
Nobody knew in 1054 that the schism was the schism, just a break in communion. These things happened in the first millenium and happen now even in the Orthodox Church.
@@MR1895Cowboy Huge difference is now we know immediately when there's a break. How do we know certain ones continued in the Orthodox Faith and didn't embrace the Papal innovations? Yes I'm aware the separation took time, but these things we have to look into.
@LadyMaria the Orthodox Church, not the Western Rite, cannonized him. He is Orthodox.
The line is not as clear as many EO like to think. I was very harsh on this myself, but 11+ years of study has shown there is far more nuance to the schism (which we understand better than the Catholics) than most Orthodox give credit for.
Honey draws more than vinegar, and we also have a problem with biased polemics. WR speaks to Western people in a way that they are more readily able to hear.
@@MR1895Cowboy I'm not even talking about the one you mentioned. I'm saying in general for Saints.
For many who convert in the West, the WR did not speak to them. I'm one of them. I've been to the RC Traditional Latin Mass before, and it was sterile and had too much quiet. Anyway, the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil no matter what tradition they are in are the ones who brought me home, and many others too.
The WR should be an economia, of course, for those in the West who need it, but it needs to be purged of all Papal institution innovations. Bottom line.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
Lutheran trying to tease out how authority works in Orthodoxy. Can the church bind consciences with its authority on new matters today if a doctrinal question were to arise? For example, could it bind the conscience of an Orthodox Christian on birth control? If a dispute within orthodoxy arose on the sainthood of a candidate, is there a final say? Can an ecumenical council be convened today?
Hello, Orthodox catechist here under Archbishop Daniel of Chicago
1 quick disclaimer: birth control is basically unanimously condemned by the Fathers; it is a scandal that some Orthodox priests and bishops teach otherwise.
To your questions: yes ecumenical councils can be called (insofar as what we mean is a universally binding council of bishops to be received by the Church). It's not really binding consciences on something new; it's bringing the fullness of the Faith to shed light on how Christians ought to live in whatever situation they find themselves in. Orthodox teaching isn't a collection of teachings on various topics that gets updated as new things arive, rather it is the Church's expression of the eternal life of Christ which He gave to His disciples in its fullness.
Authority is understood as the exercise of Christ's kingship as it is mediated through the Divine Council of angels and saints. We understand salvation to be the act of Christ defeating death and giving us eternal life, and making us like Himself and like the angels which govern the world in His will. All that to say: we understand authority to come from above and is properly exercized as the administration of Christ's kingdom in His name.
Hope that helps begin to answer some questions!
@@mikekatalenich131thank you for the detailed response.
Roman Catholics often accuse Protestants of not having any authority that can teach in a binding manner. Orthodox typically make a similar case when it comes to the canon of scripture and the correct interpretation thereof, but with there having been no ecumenical Council for over a thousand years, I don’t see how the Orthodox Church has a binding authority that is active today any more than any Protestant sect may have. I’m not being critical, I just never typically hear RC level the claim at you all, so I didn’t know if there is a mechanism for the whole Orthodox Church to make a binding, infallible statement to which all orthodox Christians are bound today.
In a way, I don’t see a functional difference between orthodoxy and the Lutheran church in this regard. We hold only scripture to be infallible, but we look to church tradition and the fathers to inform our understanding of scripture. This seems to be the same with you, except you hold the councils to be infallible in and of themselves, and the patristics consensus to be infallible as well.
And while St. John had good intentions, the WR group in France that he initially supported fell into schism and did not bear good fruit.
For me, the WR is a big problem. The church before the schism never adopted the WR. The WR is 100% catholic. Their rite is full of modifications, something the early church didn't do, that's why we, orthodox, don't follow this. There are some churches in USA which mix anglican rites with orthodox rites, something unacceptable. It's either you're in the truth, or not. I saw one day an interview of a priest of an orthodox church in USA on Roots of orthodoxy saying that for his church, some eastern orthodox saints are heretics, something i can't accept. You're right, father, the eastern orthodox rite has preserved its rites, since the beginning of the church, and it can't mix with the others. No compromise.
My thoughts exactly
You are sorely confused if you think the Byzantine Rite hasn’t changed since its inception.
@@aterrt8523 the issue is if the "rite" was changed in or outside ecumenical council.
@@aterrt8523 "action-reaction" guy. You get hurt, then you attack others. Truth hurts, i got you.
@@kingdm3387 how am I attacking you? Lol
This is cringe.
I used to live in a city with a Western Rite church (there were also parishes belonging to various other synods) and these members claimed they were using the Liturgy of St. Tikhon. What in fact they were using was an Anglican liturgy with a few changes made that mentioned Orthodoxy. It seems to me that these parishes "make it up as they go along". There may have been various other liturgies used in the early years of the Church but it was God's will that those liturgies ultimately did not survive. There should only be one liturgy for the sake of church unity,
Not even the RCC has just one rite.
@@LadyMaria Is that who you wish to emulate? We are supposed to be the one true church.
@@georgfriedrichhandel4390 Your comment seemed like an RC unaware of his or her institution's many rites. My bad. I'm not pro WR, however if we go down this rabbit hole, will we only be having the Greek tradition of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?
@@LadyMaria All synods that I'm aware of use the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (except during a few weeks of the year when the Liturgy of St. Basil the Great is used). It's not a question of "Greek" tradition; it's the maintenance of ecclesiastical unity.
Buddy are you Greek?
After watching "Western Rite Orthodox" priest talk and approve a lot of papist dogmatic development starting with heretical "saints" to statue worship to Christ's body part worship ("sacred heart")
Situation is far worse than what Fr Peter describes
I think the problem is that a lot of WR adherents want to be legally Orthodox but have not spent the time and effort to completely gain a mindset of orthodoxy and remove the very sneaky western philosophy out of their minds.
Do Russians, Greeks celebrate pre-schism western saints? Why is it so important the other way. I’d even bet they probably do celebrate a lot of modern orthodox saints.
I think western rite is great. God only knows how many people have been pushed away because of strange ethnic cliches in orthodoxy. If the bishops had vision the church could explode, and could have exploded a long time ago instead of being, “best kept secret.” John Maximovitch had the heart, he had the vision. “Do not let anyone tell you that you must be eastern to be orthodox.”
We do not commemorate post schism RCC "saints" as they weren't part of the Body of Christ, the Church.
Sadly the Parishes that St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco helped to build in the WR apostatized.
@@LadyMaria Only the one in France fell into schism... But what exactly about the French Church falling into schism makes you think that Western Rite as a whole is invalid or illegitimate?
@@premed808 Did I say that they're illegitimate? No. Do not read into text what is not written. However, the Western Rite is rough at the moment and needs smoothing to rid itself completely of any post schism Papal or Anglican innovations. That is not saying something is illegitimate before you claim that again.
@@LadyMaria I think that agreement on a date for the schism would be one of the main things that has to be done. The date 1054 is extremely unreliable, comes from Western manuals of history (written by schismatics), and is contradicted by the majority of clergy and at least two saints, and one Byzantine Metropolitan. Alexandria kept communion with Rome until 1308. Nevertheless the majority of priests and clergy view 1204 as a more definitive symbolic date. From what I've studied regarding Western Saints and history, 1204 would certainly be a "safe" date, insofar as the majority in the West still kept an Orthodox approach to faith and spirituality until the 13th century. The latest Western Saint that the Orthodox Church currently accepts is St. John Theristus, who reposed in 1129, so based on that precedent, we can certainly receive Western commemorations into the 12th century.
such arguments is why I find it very hard to convert to orthodox church or get to believe it is indeed the original church. most arguments you guys make about the west honestly insinuates you are a small balkan country club believing everyone should worship the way as dictated by your own isolated culture.
You are far too legalistic and rigid for your own liturgical practices as if liturgical additions were never made in the East the same way they were in the West. You must think byzantine notation system and melismatic chanting was handed down by the Apostles as well at this rate.
And what is ironic is that you guys wouldn't have such stance or reaction to a German attending Antiochian Rite. That german is not antiochan, everything is foreign and for him none of it was organically developed from and within his culture. that alone shows how hypocritical so many of you get. If this is what orthodoxy is about, I can understand why it is the Christian church that is the weakest in successful evangelization.
This is the first time i'm hearing about a "western rite", no idea what it is.
but from my understanding it sounds like it's something useless when you already have EO way of liturgy.
i don't see the use of "rediscovering a second wheel" so to say.
Not everyone prefers byzantine liturgy
@@dylanarmour6727 it's not about what you prefer, but what God has given us.
I will never get the eastern orthodox superiority complex of their liturgy over other liturgy especially Latin rite, when we know the latin mass and the roman canon was made by St.Gregory the great, which is pre schism. There's no good reason to dismiss the latin rite other than their own ego.
There are two unanswered questions regarding Western Rite Orthodoxy. I would like to know if anyone on this thread can point me to a source that would resolve these two issues.
1. Have any specific liturgy books been unearthed anywhere in the West that indicate a predominate liturgy used other than St. Basil's or St. John's within the first fifteen hundred years?
2. I'm aware of the Sarum Rite, but once again this appears to be an amalgamation of many different practices. What is the genesis and purpose for these Rites if the East already had a fairly unified structure and practice elsewhere?
The Gregorian mass is dated to the 600s based on earlier Roman liturgies. Sorry I don’t know enough about the second question
Thanks for the reply. I guess then my follow-up question would be why all Western Rite parishes do not unify around the Gregorian Mass?
@@LBBspock honestly I’m not sure. The other western orthodox liturgies are derived from it though so they’re not separate really
Priests stay shaved. Iconostasis is rare, dressings are still late medieval, chants are Frankish feminine and not probably as they were (google ensemble organum Rome chant). Better if they do the Divine Liturgy in English tbh and their priests grow beard
Also: they call their services "Mass", they often use instruments like Organs... and of course, Western Rite is not "one thing", it's not unified, and so this gives the platform for "innovation" and "choice", whilst providing a defense. The moment you say "look, their priests don't shave", they point to the one parish where they don't shave. And they never go after their own, it's more about the unity of these varying Western Rite "flavors".
Don't be hypocrites. The Roman Rite has been passed on from generation to generation, so we have received it from Saints many centuries ago. On the opposite, I would like to know where is the so called defense of the Tradition in the Orthodox Church, seen that the Greek Patriarch has approved women to the Diaconate. Oh right, I was forgetting, that makes part of the Tradition too.
Women deacons?
@@jamesMartinelli-x2t yup. Alexandria, look it up
Saliba (of blessed memory) did no favours for orthodoxy by allowing protestants en mass into the church back in the 90's.
And the most egregious thing done, my opinion, is allowing proddy clergy to fast track into orthodox priesthood. This never should have been allowed.
Dead wrong, your ethnic club parishes are dying.
@@Cobruh_Commander
Because of you
Jesus disagrees, all are welcome in His Church.
@@h1mynameisdav3
Everyone is indeed welcome into the church, but not all should be allowed into the clergy.
@@Cobruh_Commander 🥱Your fantasy rite is heresy
Both western rite orthodox and bizantine rite roman catholics are comparable in a sense that they know they are a transitional state for converts from the other side to jump to their side (orthodox or latin church) they are ecumenical tools not a genuine attempt of practicing the faith in obedience. I actually met a western rite orthodox and he later apostatizedd and became roman catholic. I know this felling really well because I'm an inmigrant, I had two options when I arrived here, either I got fully inmersed in the local culture or get together with other expats, I chose the first options and I know I was right, that's why I chose a russian parrish and not a western rite one.
A mutual priest friend told me they are not Orthodox but their priests can become Eastern Orthodox priests because they are correctly ordained by EO Bishops. Antiochian Diocese.
They don't like you to switch back and forth in the AWRV. You are either a Western Rite Orthodox priest or Eastern however all WR priests today are ordained according to the Eastern ordination service.
They're Orthodox Priests.
Just because they use a different rite doesn't make them lesser.
@@acekoala457isn’t that what I said?
@@acekoala457 I would extend that to their congregants, as well. Saying WR Orthodox aren't Orthodox because they use a different Rite would be like saying a Russian Orthodox parish isn't Russian Orthodox if the Liturgy is said in English instead of Russian or Church Slavonic.
100% agree with Fr Peter! Indeed no saints in the Western rite
The Western Rite was reclaimed by St. Tikhon of Zadonsk (Patron Saint of the Western Rite), and St. John Maximovitch. One of St. John Maximovitch's disciples, Blessed Dennis Chambault, became a wonderwork and an example of holiness.
which orthodox branch should i follow?? does coptic orthodox pope have authority over russian orthodoxy??
Coptic are not ortodox
@@moreibulinda9411 they arnt catholic either what are they
@@carlosmurillo2264heretics.
@@carlosmurillo2264Oriental
@@carlosmurillo2264They are Oriental churches of the East, monophysites, Oriental orthodox, lots of names but they are their own church.
This stuff is such a reality check. Jesus taught one way. The western and eastern churches teach two ways. But both churches say the rites of the other are kosher. Complete BS.
…. your description of things does not … make much sense to us. Can you elaborate?
@@OrthodoxEthos I've heard from Orthodox clergy as well as members that the Orthodox church recognizes the Catholic rites as valid, and that the Catholic church has Priesthood, even though the rites don't match that of the Orthodox church. Am I close?
@@OrthodoxEthos If Jesus gave the sacramental ordinance to the Apostles, and the Apostles spread it throughout the world, why does the Eastern and Western sacramental ordinance vary? There were varying ordinances even before the Creeds were established.
The early Church had many different liturgical Rites. Differences in liturgical expression can't be equated with differences in dogma. It's the shared Orthodox faith that unites the Churches, not a specific ancient Liturgy, of which there are many.
@@arscheerio Because the Apostles handed down different liturgies. In the far east, for example, the East Syriac Rite was handed down ultimately from St. Thaddeus. It differed in some specifics from that handed down from St. Mark in Alexandria, but the substance was the same. The faith was the same. And the "varying ordinances" were united in containing everything necessary for salvation.
The Church needs to bring the French back in. They are still in schism after being left hanging by the Romanians and the Serbians
I don't see neither we celebrate Latin/Western Saints (pre-Schism) in Eastern Rite.
I don't see what the saints have to do with anything considering we can just use eastern saints inside of a western rite.
I stay away from WR.
Wise decision
Staying away from it isn’t the answer. Sure there’s some parishes that have liturgical abuses in them but they’re are others that do it great.
@@katherinegeorge2400 Why is it wise to "stay away from" our brothers and sisters in Christ? What would cause someone to want to avoid fellow Orthodox Christians?
@@premed808 WR has many problems.
@@saka2456 which problems does it have?
Katoličanstvo je jeres. Papa je jeretik. Ne moli se sa jereticima.
This huge obstacle is people not having a mind of their own and not following the good in their hearts. You can find god anywhere because god is creation. I legitimately spend all my time in purposeful motion towards building my family and myself through joyful suffering in fasting, work(purposeful work!!), reflecting on how I talk and who I am on a daily basis. I am 22 and have salvation through god but only found it through facing my demons without the armor of god. I feel in this day and age we need warriors of god and not young men who put most of their efforts digging into religion and instead digging into why they are here. The word god scared our younger generation and it should which is why I talk more like a inspiration speaker because that is where it started for me.. thank you and please correct or lead me differently if you feel I am out of place for my tounge!
We need men who are humble and follow, obey, study Christ and His saints - not those who follow their hearts. The heart must be purified before we can follow it! This humility brings about courage to struggle against the evil ones. When one has Godly courage and humility.. this is a true man
@@leopistis3560Amen
God IS... creation?????
This is paganism -- panentheism. NO CHRISTIAN teaches this. Actually the opposite: God is Uncreated.
@@OrthodoxEthos yes gods creation is all around us. You take my words out of context.. god, Jesus, and man I believe in the three as the Orthodox Church does but the world is gods creation and that is how I worship him by giving all that I am to this world by making it a better place on the frontlines by being a example. Don’t be afraid because someone is doing it differently
@@brocksanger6108 I don't think Fr Peter is afraid. More concerned your theology is grounded in Orthodox belief. His is an encouraging comment.
Tell me, in which verse(s) in the New Testament does Jesus, or his disciples, teach us about eastern or western "rites?" There are many mystical, ascetic, whatever words you want to use, throughout Christianity. It is a crying shame that so few who proclaim the oneness of God actually promote it. My Saint name is Elias. I easily got permission from the Roman Catholic Church to have that name. Do you think denying the perfect love of Christ is really the path you want to choose? Especially now?