@@premed808 Honesty, the issue is even deeper than that. Orthodoxy has always appropriated the culture. If a remote Amazonian tribe converted, would they have to learn Koine and/or Church Slavonic, or should their culture be wholly condemned and destroyed and artificially replaced with Hellenism for the sake of Hellenism? Even within Orthodox Hellenism there are Hebraic roots because of the unbroken continuity from the apostles and early Church. This whole mindset on display in the comments needs to be reconsidered, not even just in the context of the Western Rite.
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I agree The Liturgy of St. John Chrysosstom and the rites of the east are the most beautiful expressions of Orthodoxy and are all universal in and of themselves. That however isn't to say that the western rite is invalid. It's valid just as much as the pre-schism western saints are. However, I think trying to integrate the post-schism devotions (like the sacred heart) into the wester rite does not seem proper to me
@@premed808 Not really,there is no comparison between the two rites...Western rite is a dead rite, off for more than a thousand years with no dogmatic and spiritual development,which was technically revitalized recently but his founder regreted for it in his last years.which has not produced recent Orthodox saints as the eastern rite and which is flirting,winking the eye to Roman Catholic practices like devotions,statues and imaginative meditation...no thanks,when we have a thriving fountain of Orthodox Tradition like the Eastern rite we will not prefer western rite..after all its this rite that went astray and ended to the Great Schism...
@@evans3922 I loved this, especially when he said that the WR Is dead due to natural causes (comments) th-cam.com/video/pCPNh6wmyRU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Td-4F0tzp6sF6Qqe
maybe we will find out these bishops and patriarchs (who approved the WR) views on sacred heart and apparitions. because the argument that they are deeply patristic and biblical seems like a tough line to tow...
@@Maria-g1o3z"Submit to the bishop as you would to Jesus Christ," says St. Ignatius of Antioch. We don't just submit to bishops who are holy or sinless; that's a ridiculous idea of heretical Protestant community.
@@TheMhouk2 St. Nicodemos has warnings. Where does he condemn them? And is that your only source? You haven’t looked into this very much, I imagine? “The reason that statues are avoided in the Orthodox Church (and in some of the Eastern Catholic Churches) is not that they were seen as "heretical", but as part of the struggle to overcome the iconoclasts. Prior to the iconoclastic controversy, there were bas-relief representations of holy figures in the East, and in Russia the iconoclasts seem not to have been as virulent as they were in Constantinople. 3-dimensional figures were used to some extent again in Russia in certain places, such as the cathedral of the Ss. Peter & Paul Fortress in St. Petersburg, where the Royal Gates were topped by a small statue, or in the dome of St.Isaac's cathedral where there are statues of Angels.” (Bishop Jerome of Manhattan, ROCOR) “Professor Sergios Verkhovskoi, the conservative professor of dogmatics at St. Vladimir’s Seminary forthrightly condemns as heretical anyone who declares statues as unOrthodox or in any way canonically inferior to paintings.” (Fr. Les Bundy, Orthodox Statues?) Have you seen the Greek Madonna of Ravenna (9th century)? The Byzantine Hodegetria Statue (10th century)? Do you have a problem with venerating crucifixes?
@@TheMhouk2 St. Nicodemos has warnings. Where does he condemn them? And is that your only source? You haven’t looked into this very much, I imagine? “The reason that statues are avoided in the Orthodox Church (and in some of the Eastern Catholic Churches) is not that they were seen as "heretical", but as part of the struggle to overcome the iconoclasts. Prior to the iconoclastic controversy, there were bas-relief representations of holy figures in the East, and in Russia the iconoclasts seem not to have been as virulent as they were in Constantinople. 3-dimensional figures were used to some extent again in Russia in certain places, such as the cathedral of the Ss. Peter & Paul Fortress in St. Petersburg, where the Royal Gates were topped by a small statue, or in the dome of St.Isaac's cathedral where there are statues of Angels.” (Bishop Jerome of Manhattan, ROCOR) “Professor Sergios Verkhovskoi, the conservative professor of dogmatics at St. Vladimir’s Seminary forthrightly condemns as heretical anyone who declares statues as unOrthodox or in any way canonically inferior to paintings.” (Fr. Les Bundy, Orthodox Statues?) Have you seen the Greek Madonna of Ravenna (9th century)? The Byzantine Hodegetria Statue (10th century)? Do you have a problem with venerating crucifixes?
@@TheMhouk2 St. Nicodemos has warnings. Where does he condemn them? And is that your only source? You haven’t looked into this very much, I imagine? “The reason that statues are avoided in the Orthodox Church (and in some of the Eastern Catholic Churches) is not that they were seen as "heretical", but as part of the struggle to overcome the iconoclasts. Prior to the iconoclastic controversy, there were bas-relief representations of holy figures in the East, and in Russia the iconoclasts seem not to have been as virulent as they were in Constantinople. 3-dimensional figures were used to some extent again in Russia in certain places, such as the cathedral of the Ss. Peter & Paul Fortress in St. Petersburg, where the Royal Gates were topped by a small statue, or in the dome of St.Isaac's cathedral where there are statues of Angels.” (Bishop Jerome of Manhattan, ROCOR) “Professor Sergios Verkhovskoi, the conservative professor of dogmatics at St. Vladimir’s Seminary forthrightly condemns as heretical anyone who declares statues as unOrthodox or in any way canonically inferior to paintings.” (Fr. Les Bundy, Orthodox Statues?) Have you seen the Greek Madonna of Ravenna (9th century)? The Byzantine Hodegetria Statue (10th century)? Do you see a problem with venerating crucifixes?
@@Kosta_Man There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites. There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china. They all used the same liturgy and same rite. Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite. To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions But to somehow be Orthodox? This is progressive modernistic ecumenism This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
@@Maria-g1o3z - no. The hate is to Western Rite… folks just pretend it’s a stand against ecumenism… ecumenism is when folks come together saying doctrines and dogmas don’t matter… and that folks should agree to disagree… Pretty sure the major things that led to the Great Schism are removed… maybe you have witnessed a bumbling attempt of WR that was executed poorly … and you feel justified in yourself to declare ‘Western Rite is already dead’…. I guess in your mind, Christ God is limited on what He can do.
There's always so many Eastern Orthodox people in the comments section who haven't a clue what they are talking about. I spent seven months in a Western Rite Orthodox monastery and I learned very much. What do we Orthodox say all of the time? "You have to live Orthodoxy!" Yet here we are again in the comments section with good Christian Orthodox people who should know better, dispensing their uneducated opinions. SMH
The ethos of the WR is wrong, in that it assumes something is missing from the pre-existing tradition in EO as it stands today, and therefore a new rite is required to "express the full catholicity of the church" The church always has the fullness of the faith, if you believe it is lacking in something/you need to change/add to it, then its a you problem. Also St John of Shanghai made far more polemic comments about WR liturgical practices after his initial nice comment which WR always use to show he's "their guy"
The Roman Rite comes from the period when Rome was Orthodox and was affirmed as fully Orthodox by the 8th Ecumenical Council... It is part of our tradition. Some things fall out of practice and then restoring them is fully valid. It is not adding to the tradition something that it lacked, but restoring something that is inherently part of the tradition.
As an example, we might note how the "kiss of peace" fell out of use among laity in the Byzantine Liturgy, but is being restored... Bringing back something from our own history can hardly be construed as "adding to the tradition."
@@ishitrealbad3039bro the pre schism western rite isn’t the same as was in Byzantium. The western rite existed for 1000 years ,and now we are just bringing it back.
I'm eastern european and orthodox. I like traditiknal Western aestetics too and i wannna say you don't have to pretend to be greek slavic or georgian to be orthodox.
Yes, have a conversation. But the passion ridden hate and assault on persons - on full display in the comments here - does more damage than assist in the work of conversion. (East or West) The willingness to be in a constant state of bitter unease is disturbing. And, please, don't guess my position on this issue.
pretty interesting quote mine from a Serbian Saint who was pretty clear about his advocacy for authentic Orthodox teachings. what are you trying to convey by posting this quote?
@@georgepatton5380 i want to tell that WR is false, it’s ecumenism.Why would I need a WR that is about 100 years old when I have my faith that is 2000 years old ER
@@hhahahakkkk1791Okay but no one is trying to force you to attend a WR parish. Why would Westerners have to give up their perfectly Orthodox 2,000 year old Liturgy? They believe all the same things as we do. It's not another religion. It's a liturgical Rite within Orthodoxy
I think he makes a great argument for Kievan chant, jettisoning the alien (to western ears) ‘byzantine’ (actually Syrian) chant that Greek, Serbian, Romanian, Bulgarian church culture imposes. I wonder, has he ever visited an OCA church, or ROCOR? Westerners have a taste for simultaneous intervals in music, which is denied pretty much in Byzantine chant, a solo virtuoso art. Modern chant forms, like Kievan and the work of Russian composers (also Americans for the last half-century) come out of the western choral tradition which never developed in the East. He really ought to take a closer look at what the OCA has been doing. Also, Gregorian Chant is a product of the post-schism Latin church under Pope Gregory Hildebrand, a completely synthetic musical style imposed by fiat on the assumption that older Roman and Milanese, etc. chant styles were somehow ‘corrupt’, an a priori assumption on the part of Frankish princes of the Latin church. When we Eastern Orthodox complain about the West, it is this spirit of REFORMISM that problematizes existing church culture and imposes fixes where they weren’t needed.
As a Catholic, and to be specific- a traditional Catholic who celebrates the Tridentine/Latin/Gregorian Liturgy or Mass, I find this interesting. I have never seen the Catholic Mass taken out of Catholicism. I would like to see how it is applied to the Orthodox jurisdictions and how "Orthodoxed" it is.
@@JORA52 I do not feel any adverse way about it. What I do feel is a lot of curiosity because the Tridentine Mass or the "Western Rite" as it is called in Orthodoxy is seen as something very "Catholic", The Latin Mass/Tridentine Mass that is ancient rite of the West is one of the pillars of the RC Church and orthodox in its Catholicity. I cannot compare it to the situation of the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church which are the Catholic counterparts of the Orthodox Byzantine Churches and other "eastern" churches, because they have always existed whether they never broke away from the Church or came back to the Church. Correct me if I am wrong, but was this Western Rite in Orthodoxy constructed out of the RC Church's rite and how much does it actually adhere to all the rubrics of the Tridentine Mass? I am sure, that some rubrics were probably taken away, edited, or added in to make it Orthodox.
There should actually be a debate or conversation between an orthodox theologian/scholar or priest and a wr advocate like Fr Cardine instead of both sides constantly talking past one another to their respective choirs. Fr. Trenham has published and spoken material directly contradicting much of what this priest says is “perfectly orthodox” and they’re in the SAME jurisdiction. Anyone who doesn’t see the problem here is deluded. It’s supposed to be the one holy catholic apostolic church.
I feel like the Antiochian WR has gone off the rails. If Bishop John is all for this that’s honestly even more concerning. I’m in GOARCH and I’m not a “ROCOR onlyist” but IMHO if there’s gonna be an authentic Western Rite it’s going to be the one under ROCOR. Antioch, what in the world are y’all doing.
Academic "theologians" are often the least trustworthy on these matters, as the institutions which formed them are often hostile towards anything that transcends and/or opposes the present seculum. Conversations between bishops, clergy and monastics on this topic occur regularly (almost entirely in private) and should continue, but secular academics must never hold any power over the Church.
@@Peter-en6bc How exactly have they "gone off the rails" in your opinion? Having visited them at one of their western rite conferences as an eastern riter out of curiosity, I saw nor heard anything of major concern. You must remember the antiochian western rite vicariate is over half a century old at this point, all the initial major issues have been ironed out and now they just handle minor ones as they crop up.
Fr Josiah is entitled to his opinions I suppose. But there’s a lot of “memes” out there about the West that you hear in mainstream Orthodox media that just don’t hold up. Not just from Fr Josiah, but from figures like Mathewes-Green and Fr De Young. Most of these are not original Orthodox critiques of Roman Catholicism. Most originate in 20th century figures like Romanides, who were big on anti-West polemics. Less polemical, more balanced Orthodox scholars-like St Dimitru Staniloae, Florovsky, and Ware, as well as popular figures like Seraphim Hamilton-don’t just trash the West as a sea of darkness. A sober discussion of all this would be positive, I agree, but-in my opinion-precisely because it’d help expose some of the false dichotomies between Orthodoxy and the West, and clarify where the conflict and problems really lie. (Spoiler: It’s things like the nature and scope of the papacy, not whether you wear a clerical collar!)
Fr. Josiah is such an intelligent priest. It is a shame he doesn't take time to educate himself on WR. For example, he opposed Eucharistic adoration.... But that's a pre-schism practice. St. Victorian of Asan (6th century) practiced Eucharistic adoration on a daily basis and was sanctified through it.
Can you do a video on how the Western Rite (Orthodox) survived in the West and hadn’t gotten absorbed into Roman Catholic Church? And how it wasn’t affected by the enlightenment?
@@rustbeltpipesAlaskan spirit houses and totem poles in Russian Orthodox churches up in Alaska though… I mean, technically wedding rings are pagan. Is there an issue there?
I see a distinction between translating local customs into valuable ways to communicate the faith and seeing pagan practices as "good and beautiful" and folding them into the faith. It might be a thin distinction, but I think it's important. Admittedly not a scholar in this area, just sharing my thoughts.
Why would anyone agree with that? People sacrificed their lives to keep the Holy tradition, and that is what we're being offered? Lost help us, destroy the heresies 🙏☦️🙏
I don't see the appeal to copying a group of Protestants who split off of other Protestants who split off of papal Protestants, and copying a form of worship that's less than 200 years old, but maybe someone else does. I had enough of the Catholic and Episcopalian experience growing up. Not for me!
The Roman Rite is 2,000 years old, and most of the changes occurred during the first thousand years, while Rome was still in community with the Orthodox... There's entire books on the subject like that by Adrian Fortescue.
There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites. There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china. They all used the same liturgy and same rite. Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite. To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions But to somehow be Orthodox? This is progressive modernistic ecumenism This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
@@momus2424 At what points in history was the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom the only liturgy in practice in every parish throughout the entire world, from Pentecost to today?
There have always been different types of rites depending on where you are in the world. I don't see where the problem is that the westerners have their own rite as long as it complies to the norms of Orthodoxy.
They didn't change the Eucharist. The practice of using wafers has been in place in French dioceses since the time of St. Wandregisel (d. 665). The use of azymes was defended by Sts. George the Hagiorite and Theophylact of Ohrid, and even the most anti-Latin Fathers only insisted that leaven be used; they never made any specifications about the shape.
And - remember the good ole days, when the Eastern Churches didn’t have the mode of giving the Eucharist on a spoon from the common cup? Yeah. There was a change there in practice a long time ago… but a change did occur.
As a Greek, Fr understands Orthodoxy and its relation to local Culture very very well. Its engrained here, it should be engrained in the West. I support the Western Rite.
Fatima was yet just another strategic attack by the Bishop of Rome on Orthodoxy via the back door - Russia. The Ukraine and the Middle East are the pope's specialties.
Not it's not, the the Western Rite is its current form is very new, but it's liturgical practices and chanting predate Byzantium. As for being more orthodox. Would you put the Russian Style of Liturgy and chant over the Greek, or Greek over Serbian, or Serbian over Balgarian, or Balgarian over Afrian, or African over Appalachian? Because you would need to have an argument and knowledge that is great then that of the combined wisdom of the church, the saints and all the bishops. Same goes for the distrust of Western Rite.
The Byzantine Rite has gone through far more changes than the Western Rite. Please read one of the many books that go over the history and development of the Roman Rite in detail, such as the one by Adrian Fortescue.
@@kyledawson4535 its not the style whether it's Greek or Russian or Srbian in fact all these styles are allowed always it were and are allowedo BUT the rite is one and the same for all;Eastern Rite Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St.John Chrysostom and NO papist devotions statues and other innovations.. In Africa the Orthodox parishes after they finish the ONE COMMON DIVINE LITURGY they dance and sing their traditional songs in the church...Noone forbid their customs ...ur point is invalid
There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites. There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china. They all used the same liturgy and same rite. Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite. To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions But to somehow be Orthodox? This is progressive modernistic ecumenism This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
th-cam.com/video/fa6FPILcwg4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ok51UKRBlBpK8QZ1 For those interested, this is a recording of Western Rite Vespers (from the Rule of St. Benedict) held at the Clergy Symposium at Antiochian Village in July 2024, with His Eminence Metropolitan SABA, His Grace Bishop JOHN (Abdalah), and His Grace Bishop THOMAS presiding.
2 Timothy 3:5- having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
all the superficial talk about superficial things....so concilliary in his speech.....but what does " western rite Catholicism" think of St Gregory Palamas? what does he think of "created grace" of the West? what does he think of the energy and essence teaching? there are deeper differences than Icon stands and how the chanting sounds.....all the cultural "feel" has nothing to do with the differences that are important......the problem is all the "innovations" that Rome added for centuries after the schism of 1053.....this is just naked Ecumenism and not the good kind
Evangelicals Incognito - the hatred that is not learned of Christ, fully presents itself from the shadows against anything Western. My steps into Holy Orthodoxy began in a loving and thriving Western Rite parish … the Mass of Saint Gregory is all together lovely. Many here speak out of their biases, their preferences, and their ignorance - many of my Western Rite friends know and live out their Faith in Christ God well - and they also know the Mass of Saint Gregory, the Divine Liturgies of Sts John Chrysostom and Basil - quite well. Can you say the same? I won’t pretend that the WR and ER are the same, they’re not - as there are practices on both sides that differ. But, I don’t think a ‘Rite’ is the theology and soteriology itself, rather it is the medium by which the transformative Gospel is relayed to the eyes willing to see, and the ears willing to hear. But, since one has tightly tied oneself to an opinion, you have neither eyes nor ears to perceive the Holy Gospel and its effectual working power…
@@realmccoy124 Have you heard Orthodox chants in the Appalachian style? It’s so powerful and moving to me to hear the rich theology and glory to God not only in my own language but in a musical style that deeply resonates with my heritage as an American.
There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites. There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china. They all used the same liturgy and same rite. Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite. To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions But to somehow be Orthodox? This is progressive modernistic ecumenism This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
@premed808 It is not just that but there is a dress code and they have to have a beard. You can't wear anyrhing you like, especially the collar of a Church that you are not in a communion with.
@@user-tg3tj2nq6v - interesting. Which dress code? Are you suggesting that there are no differences in cassocks and vestments between jurisdictions? And what about monastic standards and cathedral standards?
@@TheMhouk2 It’s not even salt, that’s just an objectively stupid way to measure whether you’re right. Especially since it was only two haha, but even if it was 5,000
@@ImTiredOfThisChurch Such sentiments are one of multiple things that are obstacles to me fully considering Eastern Orthodoxy. It's not been easy as I've been pondering and trying to discern between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Lord have mercy coming from a Protestant background is hard.
@@siervodedios5952you have to basically ignore Online Orthodoxy, even the “good” parts of it - the nature of the internet, of the one-way interaction with a two dimensional image, it just distorts and flattens everything into a false & unreal version of itself, and Orthodoxy is no exception. This is why “orthobros” are so messed up - imagine the absolute damage that is done to one’s mind by complete surrender to the online world. The only thing to do is to attend the Liturgy, speak to your priest, LIVE it. Of course even at church you will meet those infected, scrupulous people who are beholden to the world of online Orthodoxy. It is an unfortunate reality of our time, but if it were a different era, it would just as easily be something else.
Overall, I disagree. However, to say we embrace the good in paganism, is not very wise. We reject paganism. Culture is different than paganism. That being said, Western culture and Eastern culture did, in fact, live together before the schism and thenfsct thatbwe cannot come together with a liturgy that's accepted shows the downside of religion.
There have always been different types of rites depending on where you are in the world. I don't see where the problem is that the westerners have their own rite as long as it complies to the norms of Orthodoxy. Catholicism means unity of faith, not unity of rite. Good video
I think what you are saying might be something I would need to wrestle with having been raised all my life with no statues or organs. I wonder if they are on Mt Athos. I was told we know the Holy Spirit is in the Orthodox Church but we don't know where else the Holy Spirit is. We don't say that it is only in the Orthodox Church but that that's the only place we know where it is. It could be with others but we don't know for sure.
Everyone in here arguing about Eastern vs Western rite are gonna need to figure it out quick since Orthodoxy is going to takeover Rome soon God willing.
In mý prayer cell I have about about 70 saints on the wall. After the ones of our Lord and the Theotokos, St. Stephen Protomartyr hangs at eye level right above his relic (first class, bone fragment). To his left and right are icons of those who brought me into the Church (having various roles): SS. Palamas, John Damascene, Ephrain the Syrian (hugely so), and St. Columbus. Sectioned next to them the Alaskan saints, especially Herman, who interceded twice in my life: once off Monks Lagoon & via a wonderworking icon which I no longer possess. Many more saints. Each one selected for a past and present role they had/have in *hounding* me towards the Kingdom. Included among them are at least 20 Irish, Old English, Welch and Scottish saints. Now, you tell me. Please do. Shall I take them off the wall and pack them in a crate for being Wrstern? Chop them into kindling, pile them up for a burning? Odd thing - walking into the cell morning after morning - I have begun to see amazing connections between Celtic/Old English spirituality and that of Syria: which in my 74th year has become the anchor of my prayer life. (What is it about Syria?) The pairing is so striking that upon reading Ephraim's Hymns on Paradise it's almost as if I wrre on Ionia Island on the Irish Sea. But, then, that's just my own hard earned humiliation. The droppings of my poor meditations. I understand all that. Yet, here is the point. The nut & nub of this little diversion. My Eastern saints hang very much at ease with my Western saints. So easily do they sit one forgets the distance of time and place which separates them. Tomorrow at my morning prayers - when I venerate St. Stephen's little bone - I'll ask him what he thinks. He never leaves me unanswered. As when the first time he came - when I was awaken from a horribly frightful sleep - and commanded I go retrieve his relic. It had lain in drawers and boxes for thirty years unseen and un-kissed. Still . . .but . . . All this to say - and I do so steely eyed - if any one should besiege my prayer cell to yank my Western saints off the wall, you are forewarned. . . THE HOUND IS ON THE PORCH. (The Mother Lode, California)
1. The good, true and beauty - is the trinity of man, not the heavenly trinity of God ! The tabernacle was inventet by franziscans in 13. century. 2. The iconostase means: to hide the invisible triune God of heaven and otherworldly from people's greedy gaze, was e.g in the west a temple over the altar by the temple cloths that hidden God from view. Where he is? See your coenopaeum. It was not until the Enlightenment in the 16th century (Baroque) that people were allowed to see priests and altars. So: "iconastase" always exists. All of this and much more - is not a common christian heritage, is not orthodox and comes from non-Christian thinking, but rather the worship of man and serves man and not God. 3. the "linearity" of liturgy of the west is a myth, nothing more.
There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites. There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china. They all used the same liturgy and same rite. Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite. To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions But to somehow be Orthodox? This is progressive modernistic ecumenism This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
@@piotrjozwiak7951 oh yes sure...They would say: Alas our descendant Popes went astray, WE should have kept the Eastern Rite of St.Chrysostom without the western sentimanytality,rationalism and other heretic paraphernalia...if we only knew..!!!
@@evans3922 do you really think that the rite they followed was responsible for this? It would mean that no saints could actually rise from their tradition, bc it was faulty from the very beginning. How on earth could a faulty rite give us so many pre-schism saints? That's illogical
@@piotrjozwiak7951 not the rite per se as it was from the beginning(which we don't know exactly how it was) but little by little by the development of those elements I mentioned it shaped the Western Latin mindset that ended in the Schism... And during the second Millenium this Western rite was more developed by the Papists... So what just lately is being tried to be revived it has very apparent these elements... You can see ur self... Their priests are open to sacred Heart devotions, stations of the cross, Marian apparitions of the Latin Church etc...when one sees a Western rite priest automatically is thinking of Papism...
@@evans3922 did you ever consult any western rite liturgy? Not contemporary, but eg. the 1962 Roman Missal (the las edition of so called Tridentine Mass). I mean the very liturgical rite, without any ideology built over by any man, just the texts and what they say. Take the texts of the Roman Mass and compare it to the Divine Liturgy of st. John Chrysostom. Except for the differences in the Creed, nothing stands against the Orthodox Church teaching. Moreover, compare especially the prayers of the Offertory to the Proskomidia in the byzantine rite. Or the beginning prayers before the altar. I highly recommend you to do so - not to prove you are just wrong and period, but to present what the western rite actually is. Compare the Liturgies on your own, think a bit on your own, maybe later ask a priest who knows the case. Even 100 years ago there was one Western parish in the Polish Orthodox Church
In the WR, every host is intincted (dipped into the chalice), and then placed on the tongue of the communicant. When the communicant is very young (pre-solid foods), the intincted host is placed partially and briefly in the infant’s mouth, and then the rest of the host is received by whoever’s holding them (parent/godparent). When they’re older, they can take a fragment of a host, and then a full one. Being able to commune with my infants is one of the greatest joys as an Orthodox parent!
There literally isn't a single canon against unleavened bread in the Eucharist. The canon from Trullo was against the *Jewish* feast of unleavened bread. That interpretation is obvious on face value, but if you an authority Demetrius Chomatenos gave that same interpretation.
In my opnion such issues are good to be entertained ... but you need to present others that have a different opnion on it. In my understanding rite and worship seems very much segregated here. We better watch it seriously. But I always aspire the unity of the church again ... From Ethiopia Deacon Anteneh
this priest has it right. Only issue is the roman rite is only valid with the bishop of rome, whos ordination of bishops can be traced to st peter. the Latin rite cannot be valid through the patriarchy of antioch it dosent make sencw
There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites. There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china. They all used the same liturgy and same rite. Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite. To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions But to somehow be Orthodox? This is progressive modernistic ecumenism This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
Love my orthodox brothers and sisters but Christ gave the keys to the kingdom to one apostle in particular. It resides with Peter’s successor, the Bishop of Rome. To that end I pray we reunite one day so that Christianity can be a beacon of unity. The lack of unity is a poor witness to Christ and smacks of Pride. Regardless of how you feel about this statement, I love you all and pray for Christs Church to be whole again, so we can bring in the Protestants and save more souls for God’s glory. May God bless and keep you all, from a Roman Catholic brother in Christ. Amen
@@david_porthouse if it goes beyond that, they will come together and discuss it at a synod level. Its literally just a liturgy, the entire teachings and faith are the same aside from how they perform the prayer services.
This priest’s interview draws on many holy fathers, including Sts Basil, Benedict, Ambrose, Cyril and Methodius, Theophan the Recluse, Tikhon, Raphael of Brooklyn, and John of San Francisco
There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites. There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china. They all used the same liturgy and same rite. Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite. To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions But to somehow be Orthodox? This is progressive modernistic ecumenism This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
With comments like this, attacking the person by saying ‘so called priest’, makes me think - this is not learned of Christ, and is said by ‘so called’ Christians. What have you learned of the Holy Fathers, and with that I am assuming you’re talking about the Three Holy Hierarchs - Sts John the Golden Mouth, Gregorian the Theologian, and Basil the Great - what have you learned from them, that is against this man’s theology and presentation, whom you fail to respect his priesthood?
I believe he was referring to the culture of the people in Alaska, not the liturgy itself. I have been to a Russian Orthodox liturgy before and there were no pagan practices
Yeah he's talking about traditions like the burning of the yule log at Christmas in the Serbian Church, which ultimately comes from a pagan tradition. There's many, many traditions in our church which have been adapted from pagan customs. To freak out and act like this is something terrible just shows one's historical ignorance
at best - kiiind of a funny/edgy comment (kind of) but there are other great priests who have mustaches / not full beards. that said, i don't particularly like this priest's perspectives on a few things..
They might! Now what makes you think that one day the whole orthodox church will not be brought back to full communion with the bishop of Rome one patriarchal after another? It might take centuries but it will happen young lady
That makes me question all the priests were posted before and check for collaboration with ecumenical heresy. A good reason to turn to Holy Fathers at the source of the Orthodox Christianity and monasticism, like St.Ephraim the Syrian, Saint John the Ladder, Saint Anthony the Great, and so on. We should thank this guy. May Lord help us and save from temptations. 🙏☦️💞
@@istina27852 There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites. There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china. They all used the same liturgy and same rite. Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite. To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions But to somehow be Orthodox? This is progressive modernistic ecumenism This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
You should do some research on the existence of different rites in the Church, going back to the beginning. What you’re saying isn’t even true in the Byzantine East, where churches use at least 3 rites throughout the year.
@@b.d.4746 At the first ecumenical councils church was founded and Byzantine rite is following it,some like Antiohian and Coptic were comdemned as heretics.In east we have 2 liturgies and the same yearly circle through the year with main holidays and saints celebrations some added specific to country. This dude is catholic wannabe "ortodox" like those from the Rome which wanted somerhing new and different as it was established.
@@istina27852 The Church was founded by Christ 300 years before Nicea. Various rites grew organically, as the apostles taught and handed down in different places. In the first millennium, you had several Western rites-Roman, Sarum, Gallican, Mozarabic, Ambrosian-and even more Eastern rites-of St John, of St Basil, of St James, the East Syriac rite, etc. Any later condemnation of errors (e.g. those who rejected Chalcedon, or the rise of modern papacy) had nothing to do with the ancient apostolic rites they celebrated.
@@istina27852 On a separate note, this priest is not a “wannabe”. I encourage you to listen to his full interview where he explains his journey into Orthodoxy, his initial skepticism and rejection of the WR, his time in a monastery in Greece, and his eventual ordination and service in the WR. I happen to know from many friends of his that he is a pious, sincere, wonderful priest. He’s also done his homework on these topics, and we have something to learn from him.
@@istina27852 Actually the 8th Ecumenical Council in 879, in it's Fourth Session, confirmed the Roman Rite traditions as Orthodox... Same with those of the "Oriental" Sees...
Watch the FULL length interview here: th-cam.com/video/iAB1wqAyo2E/w-d-xo.html
Make Rome Orthodox again.
It is needed.
Lord have Mercy on Rome and all the West.
real. make it unhererical again.
Make orthodoxy orthodox again
@@premed808
Honesty, the issue is even deeper than that. Orthodoxy has always appropriated the culture. If a remote Amazonian tribe converted, would they have to learn Koine and/or Church Slavonic, or should their culture be wholly condemned and destroyed and artificially replaced with Hellenism for the sake of Hellenism? Even within Orthodox Hellenism there are Hebraic roots because of the unbroken continuity from the apostles and early Church. This whole mindset on display in the comments needs to be reconsidered, not even just in the context of the Western Rite.
@@premed808 including communion with the Pope
Blessed Elder Ephraim of Arizona has founded 18 Eastern Rite Orthodox Monasteries in USA and Canada transferring the pure Holy Orthodox Phronema in America... He is the new Orthodox enlighter of America... Many converts run in these thriving vivid Orthodox monasteries and find their Salvation... Oasis for the thirsty Americans...with the living tradition of Mount Athos spirituality and the heritage of many many old and new saints like st. Paisios, st. Porhyrios st. Iakovos of Evia and many more... Stay attached to this Holy Orthodox Eastern tradition... This is the real hope of America... God bless🙏
As an Orthodox Christian in the WR, I too love the modern Athonite saints! (Especially St Porphyrios)
I agree The Liturgy of St. John Chrysosstom and the rites of the east are the most beautiful expressions of Orthodoxy and are all universal in and of themselves. That however isn't to say that the western rite is invalid. It's valid just as much as the pre-schism western saints are. However, I think trying to integrate the post-schism devotions (like the sacred heart) into the wester rite does not seem proper to me
@@premed808 Not really,there is no comparison between the two rites...Western rite is a dead rite, off for more than a thousand years with no dogmatic and spiritual development,which was technically revitalized recently but his founder regreted for it in his last years.which has not produced recent Orthodox saints as the eastern rite and which is flirting,winking the eye to Roman Catholic practices like devotions,statues and imaginative meditation...no thanks,when we have a thriving fountain of Orthodox Tradition like the Eastern rite we will not prefer western rite..after all its this rite that went astray and ended to the Great Schism...
Amen 🙏❤🙏
@@evans3922 I loved this, especially when he said that the WR Is dead due to natural causes (comments)
th-cam.com/video/pCPNh6wmyRU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Td-4F0tzp6sF6Qqe
If only the bishops and patriarchs who approved the WR had consulted a TH-cam comment section first! 🙄
Lol
maybe we will find out these bishops and patriarchs (who approved the WR) views on sacred heart and apparitions. because the argument that they are deeply patristic and biblical seems like a tough line to tow...
Being a bishop or patriarch doesn't mean to be holy or sinless. This is the ridiculous idea of heretical Roman Catholic community.
@@Maria-g1o3z"Submit to the bishop as you would to Jesus Christ," says St. Ignatius of Antioch. We don't just submit to bishops who are holy or sinless; that's a ridiculous idea of heretical Protestant community.
@@georgepatton5380You think apparitions aren’t Orthodox? Literally no apparitions?
Since when does "Catholic" mean embracing different cultures?
Catholic means same teachings across the Church. Universal teachings.
The Western Rite has the same theology… Western liturgy, Western devotional practices, fully Orthodox.
@@littlefishbigmountain except when they insist on statuary, which goes against the writings of the rudder
@@TheMhouk2
St. Nicodemos has warnings. Where does he condemn them? And is that your only source? You haven’t looked into this very much, I imagine?
“The reason that statues are avoided in the Orthodox Church (and in some of the Eastern Catholic Churches) is not that they were seen as "heretical", but as part of the struggle to overcome the iconoclasts. Prior to the iconoclastic controversy, there were bas-relief representations of holy figures in the East, and in Russia the iconoclasts seem not to have been as virulent as they were in Constantinople. 3-dimensional figures were used to some extent again in Russia in certain places, such as the cathedral of the Ss. Peter & Paul Fortress in St. Petersburg, where the Royal Gates were topped by a small statue, or in the dome of St.Isaac's cathedral where there are statues of Angels.”
(Bishop Jerome of Manhattan, ROCOR)
“Professor Sergios Verkhovskoi, the conservative professor of dogmatics at St. Vladimir’s Seminary forthrightly condemns as heretical anyone who declares statues as unOrthodox or in any way canonically inferior to paintings.”
(Fr. Les Bundy, Orthodox Statues?)
Have you seen the Greek Madonna of Ravenna (9th century)? The Byzantine Hodegetria Statue (10th century)?
Do you have a problem with venerating crucifixes?
@@TheMhouk2
St. Nicodemos has warnings. Where does he condemn them? And is that your only source? You haven’t looked into this very much, I imagine?
“The reason that statues are avoided in the Orthodox Church (and in some of the Eastern Catholic Churches) is not that they were seen as "heretical", but as part of the struggle to overcome the iconoclasts. Prior to the iconoclastic controversy, there were bas-relief representations of holy figures in the East, and in Russia the iconoclasts seem not to have been as virulent as they were in Constantinople. 3-dimensional figures were used to some extent again in Russia in certain places, such as the cathedral of the Ss. Peter & Paul Fortress in St. Petersburg, where the Royal Gates were topped by a small statue, or in the dome of St.Isaac's cathedral where there are statues of Angels.”
(Bishop Jerome of Manhattan, ROCOR)
“Professor Sergios Verkhovskoi, the conservative professor of dogmatics at St. Vladimir’s Seminary forthrightly condemns as heretical anyone who declares statues as unOrthodox or in any way canonically inferior to paintings.”
(Fr. Les Bundy, Orthodox Statues?)
Have you seen the Greek Madonna of Ravenna (9th century)? The Byzantine Hodegetria Statue (10th century)?
Do you have a problem with venerating crucifixes?
@@TheMhouk2
St. Nicodemos has warnings. Where does he condemn them? And is that your only source? You haven’t looked into this very much, I imagine?
“The reason that statues are avoided in the Orthodox Church (and in some of the Eastern Catholic Churches) is not that they were seen as "heretical", but as part of the struggle to overcome the iconoclasts. Prior to the iconoclastic controversy, there were bas-relief representations of holy figures in the East, and in Russia the iconoclasts seem not to have been as virulent as they were in Constantinople. 3-dimensional figures were used to some extent again in Russia in certain places, such as the cathedral of the Ss. Peter & Paul Fortress in St. Petersburg, where the Royal Gates were topped by a small statue, or in the dome of St.Isaac's cathedral where there are statues of Angels.”
(Bishop Jerome of Manhattan, ROCOR)
“Professor Sergios Verkhovskoi, the conservative professor of dogmatics at St. Vladimir’s Seminary forthrightly condemns as heretical anyone who declares statues as unOrthodox or in any way canonically inferior to paintings.”
(Fr. Les Bundy, Orthodox Statues?)
Have you seen the Greek Madonna of Ravenna (9th century)? The Byzantine Hodegetria Statue (10th century)?
Do you see a problem with venerating crucifixes?
I've never understood the hate to Western Rite. I'm Eastern Rite, and I think the Western Rite is beautiful in its own regards
The hate is to Ecumenism, not the Western Rite, it's dead already, so there's no particular reason to hate one's history.
@@Kosta_Man
There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites.
There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom
In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity
When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china.
They all used the same liturgy and same rite.
Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite.
To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions
But to somehow be Orthodox?
This is progressive modernistic ecumenism
This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity
This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done
Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc
They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE
And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
@@Maria-g1o3z - no. The hate is to Western Rite… folks just pretend it’s a stand against ecumenism… ecumenism is when folks come together saying doctrines and dogmas don’t matter… and that folks should agree to disagree… Pretty sure the major things that led to the Great Schism are removed… maybe you have witnessed a bumbling attempt of WR that was executed poorly … and you feel justified in yourself to declare ‘Western Rite is already dead’…. I guess in your mind, Christ God is limited on what He can do.
This just sounds like a gradualist attempt to corrupt the last uncorrupted expression of the true church to me.
There are so many bishops in the comment sections, too bad their decrees aren't enforceable.
You can spot the bishops by their orthodox wojak profile pics
There's always so many Eastern Orthodox people in the comments section who haven't a clue what they are talking about. I spent seven months in a Western Rite Orthodox monastery and I learned very much.
What do we Orthodox say all of the time? "You have to live Orthodoxy!"
Yet here we are again in the comments section with good Christian Orthodox people who should know better, dispensing their uneducated opinions. SMH
The ethos of the WR is wrong, in that it assumes something is missing from the pre-existing tradition in EO as it stands today, and therefore a new rite is required to "express the full catholicity of the church"
The church always has the fullness of the faith, if you believe it is lacking in something/you need to change/add to it, then its a you problem.
Also St John of Shanghai made far more polemic comments about WR liturgical practices after his initial nice comment which WR always use to show he's "their guy"
The Roman Rite comes from the period when Rome was Orthodox and was affirmed as fully Orthodox by the 8th Ecumenical Council... It is part of our tradition.
Some things fall out of practice and then restoring them is fully valid. It is not adding to the tradition something that it lacked, but restoring something that is inherently part of the tradition.
As an example, we might note how the "kiss of peace" fell out of use among laity in the Byzantine Liturgy, but is being restored... Bringing back something from our own history can hardly be construed as "adding to the tradition."
Do you know what writing“that quote” of st John comes from?
@@LadderOfDescent
I want to know too. I’ve heard this brought up a couple times now, but as of yet nobody’s given the source
@@littlefishbigmountainIts from a letter St John sent to Dom Augustine Whitfield of Christminster Monastery
why replace a thousands of years tradition with one that is barely even 100 years old?
Your church is ethnic baby
Not replaced. Still orthodox.
@@coryshelton1574 it's literally not Orthodox if it's a new invention outside of the Church (something that never was adopted)
@@ishitrealbad3039 what does your Bishop say about Western rite?
@@ishitrealbad3039bro the pre schism western rite isn’t the same as was in Byzantium. The western rite existed for 1000 years ,and now we are just bringing it back.
Thank you for a wonderful talk. The WR is beautiful🕊️☺️
I'm eastern european and orthodox. I like traditiknal Western aestetics too and i wannna say you don't have to pretend to be greek slavic or georgian to be orthodox.
Yes, have a conversation. But the passion ridden hate and assault on persons - on full display in the comments here - does more damage than assist in the work of conversion. (East or West)
The willingness to be in a constant state of bitter unease is disturbing.
And, please, don't guess my position on this issue.
You are absolutely correct brother
"the beginning of respecting other people's religions is the beginning of losing one's own" St. Bishop Nikolaj Velimirović
pretty interesting quote mine from a Serbian Saint who was pretty clear about his advocacy for authentic Orthodox teachings. what are you trying to convey by posting this quote?
@@georgepatton5380 i want to tell that WR is false, it’s ecumenism.Why would I need a WR that is about 100 years old when I have my faith that is 2000 years old ER
Truth. ❤
@@hhahahakkkk1791Okay but no one is trying to force you to attend a WR parish. Why would Westerners have to give up their perfectly Orthodox 2,000 year old Liturgy? They believe all the same things as we do. It's not another religion. It's a liturgical Rite within Orthodoxy
@@hhahahakkkk1791 oh my apologies man. I totally misinterpreted the quote from Saint Nikolaj.
I think he makes a great argument for Kievan chant, jettisoning the alien (to western ears) ‘byzantine’ (actually Syrian) chant that Greek, Serbian, Romanian, Bulgarian church culture imposes. I wonder, has he ever visited an OCA church, or ROCOR? Westerners have a taste for simultaneous intervals in music, which is denied pretty much in Byzantine chant, a solo virtuoso art. Modern chant forms, like Kievan and the work of Russian composers (also Americans for the last half-century) come out of the western choral tradition which never developed in the East. He really ought to take a closer look at what the OCA has been doing.
Also, Gregorian Chant is a product of the post-schism Latin church under Pope Gregory Hildebrand, a completely synthetic musical style imposed by fiat on the assumption that older Roman and Milanese, etc. chant styles were somehow ‘corrupt’, an a priori assumption on the part of Frankish princes of the Latin church. When we Eastern Orthodox complain about the West, it is this spirit of REFORMISM that problematizes existing church culture and imposes fixes where they weren’t needed.
As a Catholic, and to be specific- a traditional Catholic who celebrates the Tridentine/Latin/Gregorian Liturgy or Mass, I find this interesting. I have never seen the Catholic Mass taken out of Catholicism. I would like to see how it is applied to the Orthodox jurisdictions and how "Orthodoxed" it is.
I see fellow othodox debating one another about the validity of this rite tell me how do u as RC feel about this
@@JORA52 I do not feel any adverse way about it. What I do feel is a lot of curiosity because the Tridentine Mass or the "Western Rite" as it is called in Orthodoxy is seen as something very "Catholic", The Latin Mass/Tridentine Mass that is ancient rite of the West is one of the pillars of the RC Church and orthodox in its Catholicity. I cannot compare it to the situation of the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church which are the Catholic counterparts of the Orthodox Byzantine Churches and other "eastern" churches, because they have always existed whether they never broke away from the Church or came back to the Church. Correct me if I am wrong, but was this Western Rite in Orthodoxy constructed out of the RC Church's rite and how much does it actually adhere to all the rubrics of the Tridentine Mass? I am sure, that some rubrics were probably taken away, edited, or added in to make it Orthodox.
@@fernandoricaurte9437 I only heard about the WR this year I know absolutely nothing about them which is why I wanted a RC opinion about them
I commune regularly at a western rite church, when i go to the Greek church in town or Rocor church, or the monasterys,they do not deny me communion.
There should actually be a debate or conversation between an orthodox theologian/scholar or priest and a wr advocate like Fr Cardine instead of both sides constantly talking past one another to their respective choirs. Fr. Trenham has published and spoken material directly contradicting much of what this priest says is “perfectly orthodox” and they’re in the SAME jurisdiction. Anyone who doesn’t see the problem here is deluded. It’s supposed to be the one holy catholic apostolic church.
I feel like the Antiochian WR has gone off the rails. If Bishop John is all for this that’s honestly even more concerning.
I’m in GOARCH and I’m not a “ROCOR onlyist” but IMHO if there’s gonna be an authentic Western Rite it’s going to be the one under ROCOR.
Antioch, what in the world are y’all doing.
Academic "theologians" are often the least trustworthy on these matters, as the institutions which formed them are often hostile towards anything that transcends and/or opposes the present seculum. Conversations between bishops, clergy and monastics on this topic occur regularly (almost entirely in private) and should continue, but secular academics must never hold any power over the Church.
@@Peter-en6bc How exactly have they "gone off the rails" in your opinion? Having visited them at one of their western rite conferences as an eastern riter out of curiosity, I saw nor heard anything of major concern. You must remember the antiochian western rite vicariate is over half a century old at this point, all the initial major issues have been ironed out and now they just handle minor ones as they crop up.
Fr Josiah is entitled to his opinions I suppose. But there’s a lot of “memes” out there about the West that you hear in mainstream Orthodox media that just don’t hold up. Not just from Fr Josiah, but from figures like Mathewes-Green and Fr De Young. Most of these are not original Orthodox critiques of Roman Catholicism. Most originate in 20th century figures like Romanides, who were big on anti-West polemics. Less polemical, more balanced Orthodox scholars-like St Dimitru Staniloae, Florovsky, and Ware, as well as popular figures like Seraphim Hamilton-don’t just trash the West as a sea of darkness. A sober discussion of all this would be positive, I agree, but-in my opinion-precisely because it’d help expose some of the false dichotomies between Orthodoxy and the West, and clarify where the conflict and problems really lie. (Spoiler: It’s things like the nature and scope of the papacy, not whether you wear a clerical collar!)
Fr. Josiah is such an intelligent priest. It is a shame he doesn't take time to educate himself on WR. For example, he opposed Eucharistic adoration.... But that's a pre-schism practice. St. Victorian of Asan (6th century) practiced Eucharistic adoration on a daily basis and was sanctified through it.
Can you do a video on how the Western Rite (Orthodox) survived in the West and hadn’t gotten absorbed into Roman Catholic Church? And how it wasn’t affected by the enlightenment?
"If we can adopt pagan practices which are good and beautiful...". Lord have mercy ☦️
What do you think the burning of the yulog at Christmas time by the Slavic churches originally was? It originally came from paganism...
Everyone makes mistakes. We should try avoiding new ones.
@@rustbeltpipesAlaskan spirit houses and totem poles in Russian Orthodox churches up in Alaska though…
I mean, technically wedding rings are pagan. Is there an issue there?
I see a distinction between translating local customs into valuable ways to communicate the faith and seeing pagan practices as "good and beautiful" and folding them into the faith. It might be a thin distinction, but I think it's important. Admittedly not a scholar in this area, just sharing my thoughts.
Why would anyone agree with that? People sacrificed their lives to keep the Holy tradition, and that is what we're being offered? Lost help us, destroy the heresies 🙏☦️🙏
I don't see the appeal to copying a group of Protestants who split off of other Protestants who split off of papal Protestants, and copying a form of worship that's less than 200 years old, but maybe someone else does. I had enough of the Catholic and Episcopalian experience growing up. Not for me!
Good thing nobody’s throwing out the Byzantine Rite!
The Roman Rite is 2,000 years old, and most of the changes occurred during the first thousand years, while Rome was still in community with the Orthodox... There's entire books on the subject like that by Adrian Fortescue.
There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites.
There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom
In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity
When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china.
They all used the same liturgy and same rite.
Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite.
To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions
But to somehow be Orthodox?
This is progressive modernistic ecumenism
This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity
This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done
Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc
They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE
And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
@@momus2424
At what points in history was the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom the only liturgy in practice in every parish throughout the entire world, from Pentecost to today?
There have always been different types of rites depending on where you are in the world. I don't see where the problem is that the westerners have their own rite as long as it complies to the norms of Orthodoxy.
To anyone conflicted when reading the comments, the answer is to ask your priest.
No. I could understand many things, but changing the EUCHARIST no. NO! That is PROOF beyond doubt that this is not valid.
They didn't change the Eucharist. The practice of using wafers has been in place in French dioceses since the time of St. Wandregisel (d. 665). The use of azymes was defended by Sts. George the Hagiorite and Theophylact of Ohrid, and even the most anti-Latin Fathers only insisted that leaven be used; they never made any specifications about the shape.
Relax, Western Orthodoxy bread has leavened
And - remember the good ole days, when the Eastern Churches didn’t have the mode of giving the Eucharist on a spoon from the common cup? Yeah. There was a change there in practice a long time ago… but a change did occur.
Bro relax
As a Greek, Fr understands Orthodoxy and its relation to local Culture very very well. Its engrained here, it should be engrained in the West. I support the Western Rite.
Fatima was yet just another strategic attack by the Bishop of Rome on Orthodoxy via the back door - Russia. The Ukraine and the Middle East are the pope's specialties.
Great interview! ☦️
The Byzantine rite is the most ancient and orthodox
Not it's not, the the Western Rite is its current form is very new, but it's liturgical practices and chanting predate Byzantium.
As for being more orthodox.
Would you put the Russian Style of Liturgy and chant over the Greek, or Greek over Serbian, or Serbian over Balgarian, or Balgarian over Afrian, or African over Appalachian?
Because you would need to have an argument and knowledge that is great then that of the combined wisdom of the church, the saints and all the bishops.
Same goes for the distrust of Western Rite.
The liturgy of St James is actually. The Byzantine rites as we know them now were changed and developed until after the 7th council
The Byzantine Rite has gone through far more changes than the Western Rite. Please read one of the many books that go over the history and development of the Roman Rite in detail, such as the one by Adrian Fortescue.
@@kyledawson4535 its not the style whether it's Greek or Russian or Srbian in fact all these styles are allowed always it were and are allowedo BUT the rite is one and the same for all;Eastern Rite Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St.John Chrysostom and NO papist devotions statues and other innovations..
In Africa the Orthodox parishes after they finish the ONE COMMON DIVINE LITURGY they dance and sing their traditional songs in the church...Noone forbid their customs ...ur point is invalid
There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites.
There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom
In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity
When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china.
They all used the same liturgy and same rite.
Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite.
To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions
But to somehow be Orthodox?
This is progressive modernistic ecumenism
This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity
This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done
Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc
They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE
And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
th-cam.com/video/fa6FPILcwg4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ok51UKRBlBpK8QZ1
For those interested, this is a recording of Western Rite Vespers (from the Rule of St. Benedict) held at the Clergy Symposium at Antiochian Village in July 2024, with His Eminence Metropolitan SABA, His Grace Bishop JOHN (Abdalah), and His Grace Bishop THOMAS presiding.
2 Timothy 3:5-
having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Exactly so...
Where are silly women being led captive here with diverse lust? Sounds like an evangelical incognito comment.
all the superficial talk about superficial things....so concilliary in his speech.....but what does " western rite Catholicism" think of St Gregory Palamas? what does he think of "created grace" of the West? what does he think of the energy and essence teaching? there are deeper differences than Icon stands and how the chanting sounds.....all the cultural "feel" has nothing to do with the differences that are important......the problem is all the "innovations" that Rome added for centuries after the schism of 1053.....this is just naked Ecumenism and not the good kind
Evangelicals Incognito - the hatred that is not learned of Christ, fully presents itself from the shadows against anything Western. My steps into Holy Orthodoxy began in a loving and thriving Western Rite parish … the Mass of Saint Gregory is all together lovely. Many here speak out of their biases, their preferences, and their ignorance - many of my Western Rite friends know and live out their Faith in Christ God well - and they also know the Mass of Saint Gregory, the Divine Liturgies of Sts John Chrysostom and Basil - quite well. Can you say the same?
I won’t pretend that the WR and ER are the same, they’re not - as there are practices on both sides that differ. But, I don’t think a ‘Rite’ is the theology and soteriology itself, rather it is the medium by which the transformative Gospel is relayed to the eyes willing to see, and the ears willing to hear. But, since one has tightly tied oneself to an opinion, you have neither eyes nor ears to perceive the Holy Gospel and its effectual working power…
@@realmccoy124
Have you heard Orthodox chants in the Appalachian style? It’s so powerful and moving to me to hear the rich theology and glory to God not only in my own language but in a musical style that deeply resonates with my heritage as an American.
@@littlefishbigmountain - I have heard it. My family hails from Eastern Kentucky and West Virginia. Trust you are well. Lovingly, Cuthbert.
This just doesn’t sit right with me
Good thing it’s not your decision
@@telosbound
Eyyyyyy Telosbound!
a big fan of ur content @@telosbound
@@JC.AEP2 I’m honoured
There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites.
There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom
In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity
When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china.
They all used the same liturgy and same rite.
Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite.
To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions
But to somehow be Orthodox?
This is progressive modernistic ecumenism
This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity
This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done
Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc
They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE
And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
I don’t know why I even try to read the comments on these videos. Satan just running amok with no resistance.
What church does he belong to? has a non-Orthodox collar, a moustache....! is that serious or some kind of a joke?
You think Orthodoxy consists of wearing the right collar and having a specific style of beard? How deep
@premed808 It is not just that but there is a dress code and they have to have a beard. You can't wear anyrhing you like, especially the collar of a Church that you are not in a communion with.
@@user-tg3tj2nq6v - interesting. Which dress code? Are you suggesting that there are no differences in cassocks and vestments between jurisdictions? And what about monastic standards and cathedral standards?
@realmccoy124 Which dress code? having a Catholic collar and you tell us which dress code? Please.
@@user-tg3tj2nq6v Show me 1 Canon of the Church that forbids white collars and on my word, I promise to convert to your position on the spot.
we've heard what this man has to say about apparitions and sacred heart... in my opinion that makes his insights on western rite less significant.
Too bad your opinion counts for jack
@@mack3685 two thumbs up so far
@@georgepatton5380
Wow! Two anonymous internet people thumbed up your comment! Validation!
you've drawn some salt with your comments aha
@@TheMhouk2
It’s not even salt, that’s just an objectively stupid way to measure whether you’re right. Especially since it was only two haha, but even if it was 5,000
I’m absolutely in awe of some of the comments here.
Perhaps every homily should include the command to purchase mirrors for a while.
How Ethnic this comment section is 😂😂😂😂 you won’t believe
@@ImTiredOfThisChurch Such sentiments are one of multiple things that are obstacles to me fully considering Eastern Orthodoxy. It's not been easy as I've been pondering and trying to discern between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Lord have mercy coming from a Protestant background is hard.
Its not ethnic. Its mostly converts. We Greeks support Western Rite.
@@siervodedios5952you have to basically ignore Online Orthodoxy, even the “good” parts of it - the nature of the internet, of the one-way interaction with a two dimensional image, it just distorts and flattens everything into a false & unreal version of itself, and Orthodoxy is no exception. This is why “orthobros” are so messed up - imagine the absolute damage that is done to one’s mind by complete surrender to the online world. The only thing to do is to attend the Liturgy, speak to your priest, LIVE it. Of course even at church you will meet those infected, scrupulous people who are beholden to the world of online Orthodoxy. It is an unfortunate reality of our time, but if it were a different era, it would just as easily be something else.
@@00fgytduydrtu thank you very much
@@00fgytduydrtu
Speak for yourself will ya?
Overall, I disagree. However, to say we embrace the good in paganism, is not very wise. We reject paganism. Culture is different than paganism. That being said, Western culture and Eastern culture did, in fact, live together before the schism and thenfsct thatbwe cannot come together with a liturgy that's accepted shows the downside of religion.
There have always been different types of rites depending on where you are in the world. I don't see where the problem is that the westerners have their own rite as long as it complies to the norms of Orthodoxy.
Catholicism means unity of faith, not unity of rite.
Good video
I think what you are saying might be something I would need to wrestle with having been raised all my life with no statues or organs. I wonder if they are on Mt Athos. I was told we know the Holy Spirit is in the Orthodox Church but we don't know where else the Holy Spirit is. We don't say that it is only in the Orthodox Church but that that's the only place we know where it is. It could be with others but we don't know for sure.
So western rite does not commune with east?
The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof.
Everyone in here arguing about Eastern vs Western rite are gonna need to figure it out quick since Orthodoxy is going to takeover Rome soon God willing.
I smell ecumenism
Progressivism, modernism, revisionism and ecumenism.
This is orthodoxy Lite
And this is the creation of Orthodox-catholic Uniates
The plaque of these days.
Change your sense of smell
@@momus2424Spamming TH-cam comments isn’t going to give you theosis
@distracted900 I can't do that because I'm not God and I know im not, unlike ecumenists who believe they're their own gods.
In mý prayer cell I have about about 70 saints on the wall. After the ones of our Lord and the Theotokos, St. Stephen Protomartyr hangs at eye level right above his relic (first class, bone fragment).
To his left and right are icons of those who brought me into the Church (having various roles): SS. Palamas, John Damascene, Ephrain the Syrian (hugely so), and St. Columbus. Sectioned next to them the Alaskan saints, especially Herman, who interceded twice in my life: once off Monks Lagoon & via a wonderworking icon which I no longer possess.
Many more saints. Each one selected for a past and present role they had/have in *hounding* me towards the Kingdom.
Included among them are at least 20 Irish, Old English, Welch and Scottish saints. Now, you tell me. Please do. Shall I take them off the wall and pack them in a crate for being Wrstern? Chop them into kindling, pile them up for a burning?
Odd thing - walking into the cell morning after morning - I have begun to see amazing connections between Celtic/Old English spirituality and that of Syria: which in my 74th year has become the anchor of my prayer life. (What is it about Syria?)
The pairing is so striking that upon reading Ephraim's Hymns on Paradise it's almost as if I wrre on Ionia Island on the Irish Sea.
But, then, that's just my own hard earned humiliation. The droppings of my poor meditations. I understand all that. Yet, here is the point. The nut & nub of this little diversion.
My Eastern saints hang very much at ease with my Western saints. So easily do they sit one forgets the distance of time and place which separates them.
Tomorrow at my morning prayers - when I venerate St. Stephen's little bone - I'll ask him what he thinks. He never leaves me unanswered. As when the first time he came - when I was awaken from a horribly frightful sleep - and commanded I go retrieve his relic. It had lain in drawers and boxes for thirty years unseen and un-kissed.
Still . . .but . . .
All this to say - and I do so steely eyed - if any one should besiege my prayer cell to yank my Western saints off the wall, you are forewarned. . .
THE HOUND IS ON THE PORCH.
(The Mother Lode, California)
1. The good, true and beauty - is the trinity of man, not the heavenly trinity of God ! The tabernacle was inventet by franziscans in 13. century. 2. The iconostase means: to hide the invisible triune God of heaven and otherworldly from people's greedy gaze, was e.g in the west a temple over the altar by the temple cloths that hidden God from view. Where he is? See your coenopaeum. It was not until the Enlightenment in the 16th century (Baroque) that people were allowed to see priests and altars. So: "iconastase" always exists. All of this and much more - is not a common christian heritage, is not orthodox and comes from non-Christian thinking, but rather the worship of man and serves man and not God. 3. the "linearity" of liturgy of the west is a myth, nothing more.
May they be fruitful and multiply
Do you use unleavened bread dead azyma contrary to the Gospel? What about the epiclesis.
There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites.
There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom
In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity
When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china.
They all used the same liturgy and same rite.
Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite.
To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions
But to somehow be Orthodox?
This is progressive modernistic ecumenism
This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity
This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done
Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc
They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE
And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
St Gregory the Great, the pope of Rome, and st Patrick would like to speak a word with you
@@piotrjozwiak7951 oh yes sure...They would say: Alas our descendant Popes went astray, WE should have kept the Eastern Rite of St.Chrysostom without the western sentimanytality,rationalism and other heretic paraphernalia...if we only knew..!!!
@@evans3922 do you really think that the rite they followed was responsible for this?
It would mean that no saints could actually rise from their tradition, bc it was faulty from the very beginning.
How on earth could a faulty rite give us so many pre-schism saints? That's illogical
@@piotrjozwiak7951 not the rite per se as it was from the beginning(which we don't know exactly how it was) but little by little by the development of those elements I mentioned it shaped the Western Latin mindset that ended in the Schism... And during the second Millenium this Western rite was more developed by the Papists... So what just lately is being tried to be revived it has very apparent these elements... You can see ur self... Their priests are open to sacred Heart devotions, stations of the cross, Marian apparitions of the Latin Church etc...when one sees a Western rite priest automatically is thinking of Papism...
@@evans3922 did you ever consult any western rite liturgy? Not contemporary, but eg. the 1962 Roman Missal (the las edition of so called Tridentine Mass). I mean the very liturgical rite, without any ideology built over by any man, just the texts and what they say.
Take the texts of the Roman Mass and compare it to the Divine Liturgy of st. John Chrysostom. Except for the differences in the Creed, nothing stands against the Orthodox Church teaching. Moreover, compare especially the prayers of the Offertory to the Proskomidia in the byzantine rite. Or the beginning prayers before the altar.
I highly recommend you to do so - not to prove you are just wrong and period, but to present what the western rite actually is.
Compare the Liturgies on your own, think a bit on your own, maybe later ask a priest who knows the case.
Even 100 years ago there was one Western parish in the Polish Orthodox Church
Yes, it is.
How do you commune infants with those huge hosts?
Excellent question...😂
In the WR, every host is intincted (dipped into the chalice), and then placed on the tongue of the communicant. When the communicant is very young (pre-solid foods), the intincted host is placed partially and briefly in the infant’s mouth, and then the rest of the host is received by whoever’s holding them (parent/godparent). When they’re older, they can take a fragment of a host, and then a full one.
Being able to commune with my infants is one of the greatest joys as an Orthodox parent!
I think you got your answer with b.d.4746 response… it’s that easy.
To what Pathriacate is this priest belong?
Antiochian afaik
Unleavened bread is strictly against the Holy Canons
There literally isn't a single canon against unleavened bread in the Eucharist. The canon from Trullo was against the *Jewish* feast of unleavened bread. That interpretation is obvious on face value, but if you an authority Demetrius Chomatenos gave that same interpretation.
(they dont use unleavened bread)
I have never heard nor seen it. Why is it needed? Unleavened bread? Is this a psyop?
I am praying for this "priest" so he can wake up. You can NOT bring pagan rituals in orthodoxy.
you sound like an Evangelical lmao
In my opnion such issues are good to be entertained ... but you need to present others that have a different opnion on it.
In my understanding rite and worship seems very much segregated here. We better watch it seriously. But I always aspire the unity of the church again ...
From Ethiopia
Deacon Anteneh
this priest has it right. Only issue is the roman rite is only valid with the bishop of rome, whos ordination of bishops can be traced to st peter. the Latin rite cannot be valid through the patriarchy of antioch it dosent make sencw
No judgment, but it just seems so odd.
Slippery road you want to take based on selective examples and missing the union of the church and the Holy Spirit
There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites.
There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom
In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity
When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china.
They all used the same liturgy and same rite.
Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite.
To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions
But to somehow be Orthodox?
This is progressive modernistic ecumenism
This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity
This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done
Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc
They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE
And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
Amen
Love my orthodox brothers and sisters but Christ gave the keys to the kingdom to one apostle in particular. It resides with Peter’s successor, the Bishop of Rome. To that end I pray we reunite one day so that Christianity can be a beacon of unity. The lack of unity is a poor witness to Christ and smacks of Pride. Regardless of how you feel about this statement, I love you all and pray for Christs Church to be whole again, so we can bring in the Protestants and save more souls for God’s glory. May God bless and keep you all, from a Roman Catholic brother in Christ. Amen
So who decides the answer to the lead question?
The Bishops decide.
@@ChrisShockz A Panorthodox Synod will decide which is ABOVE bishops
@@ChrisShockz Which bishops?
@@david_porthouse Patriatch John X, Metropolitan Saba, Bishop John.
@@david_porthouse if it goes beyond that, they will come together and discuss it at a synod level. Its literally just a liturgy, the entire teachings and faith are the same aside from how they perform the prayer services.
Western rite sounds more like eastern catholicism. You better read the teachings of the holy fathers before listening to this so called priest.
This priest’s interview draws on many holy fathers, including Sts Basil, Benedict, Ambrose, Cyril and Methodius, Theophan the Recluse, Tikhon, Raphael of Brooklyn, and John of San Francisco
It’s actually the opposite? Eastern Catholicism is Byzantine papism…
There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites.
There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom
In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity
When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china.
They all used the same liturgy and same rite.
Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite.
To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions
But to somehow be Orthodox?
This is progressive modernistic ecumenism
This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity
This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done
Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc
They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE
And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
With comments like this, attacking the person by saying ‘so called priest’, makes me think - this is not learned of Christ, and is said by ‘so called’ Christians. What have you learned of the Holy Fathers, and with that I am assuming you’re talking about the Three Holy Hierarchs - Sts John the Golden Mouth, Gregorian the Theologian, and Basil the Great - what have you learned from them, that is against this man’s theology and presentation, whom you fail to respect his priesthood?
Uniatism was established by fraud and by force (Josaphat Kuntsevitch), not a good comparison
Did this man say adopted pagan practices? 15:00 min mark
I believe he was referring to the culture of the people in Alaska, not the liturgy itself. I have been to a Russian Orthodox liturgy before and there were no pagan practices
Yeah he's talking about traditions like the burning of the yule log at Christmas in the Serbian Church, which ultimately comes from a pagan tradition. There's many, many traditions in our church which have been adapted from pagan customs. To freak out and act like this is something terrible just shows one's historical ignorance
Never trust a priest without a beard.
That is silly. Yes, do, please, recit a Canon. Metropolitan Phillip of the Antiochians never sported a beard. What do you make of him?
@@stephengolay1273 cool story bro
at best - kiiind of a funny/edgy comment (kind of) but there are other great priests who have mustaches / not full beards. that said, i don't particularly like this priest's perspectives on a few things..
are you a troll ?
No, no it’s not. Next question
And you formed the conclusion to the matter how? That’s a great follow on question to your assertion.
We hate Ecumenism.
@@realmccoy124Probably he just doesn't like it. To be honest, that's what seems to be at the core of all of these anti-Western Rite comments
This video is a pile of bullcrap.
How satan is putting words in mouth of this poor man 😢
Our Lord will remember your pride on judgement day - repent and confess to your spiritual father
Just barely, for now.
Just became Catholic already ❤
Why would we want to join a demonic religion .
They might! Now what makes you think that one day the whole orthodox church will not be brought back to full communion with the bishop of Rome one patriarchal after another? It might take centuries but it will happen young lady
This channel had brilliant priests and videos but recently they are sharing some weird catholic wannabe ortodox "priest".
Sounds like a comment of a prideful wannabe Christian who’s sitting Christ’s seat, judging things with ones’s unlearned biases and preferences.
That makes me question all the priests were posted before and check for collaboration with ecumenical heresy. A good reason to turn to Holy Fathers at the source of the Orthodox Christianity and monasticism, like St.Ephraim the Syrian, Saint John the Ladder, Saint Anthony the Great, and so on. We should thank this guy. May Lord help us and save from temptations. 🙏☦️💞
@@istina27852
There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites.
There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom
In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity
When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china.
They all used the same liturgy and same rite.
Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite.
To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions
But to somehow be Orthodox?
This is progressive modernistic ecumenism
This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity
This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done
Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc
They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE
And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
No it is not Ortodox,there is only one rite and this "western" is some ecumenical crap.
You should do some research on the existence of different rites in the Church, going back to the beginning.
What you’re saying isn’t even true in the Byzantine East, where churches use at least 3 rites throughout the year.
@@b.d.4746 At the first ecumenical councils church was founded and Byzantine rite is following it,some like Antiohian and Coptic were comdemned as heretics.In east we have 2 liturgies and the same yearly circle through the year with main holidays and saints celebrations some added specific to country.
This dude is catholic wannabe "ortodox" like those from the Rome which wanted somerhing new and different as it was established.
@@istina27852 The Church was founded by Christ 300 years before Nicea. Various rites grew organically, as the apostles taught and handed down in different places. In the first millennium, you had several Western rites-Roman, Sarum, Gallican, Mozarabic, Ambrosian-and even more Eastern rites-of St John, of St Basil, of St James, the East Syriac rite, etc. Any later condemnation of errors (e.g. those who rejected Chalcedon, or the rise of modern papacy) had nothing to do with the ancient apostolic rites they celebrated.
@@istina27852 On a separate note, this priest is not a “wannabe”. I encourage you to listen to his full interview where he explains his journey into Orthodoxy, his initial skepticism and rejection of the WR, his time in a monastery in Greece, and his eventual ordination and service in the WR. I happen to know from many friends of his that he is a pious, sincere, wonderful priest. He’s also done his homework on these topics, and we have something to learn from him.
@@istina27852 Actually the 8th Ecumenical Council in 879, in it's Fourth Session, confirmed the Roman Rite traditions as Orthodox... Same with those of the "Oriental" Sees...
Oh no this weird "priest" again 😢😂