"And since when does the opinion of the smallfolk matter? It's also an odd statement to say the smallfolk loved Baelon. Which smallfolk? All of them? Was there a pole or something?" Most underrated humor, right here (small)folks.
Ohh, the dance of dragons, or how the mighty Velaryons fall! It is such a sad view to see the once proud house being nothing more than a footnote of Stannis' minor lords of the narrow sea by start of the main story.
Yeah, little Monterys Velaryon is the ”rightful” king according to Westerosi succession (Jaehaerys -> Rhaenys -> Jacaerys/Addam? -> Baela & Alyn -> house Velaryon -> Monford -> Monterys.
This succession of the Iron Throne thing reminds a lot about succession in the Russian Empire for the first 100 years. Peter the Great left a rule "The current Emperor chooses the successor", without even stating that the successor has to be Romanov. And he didn't even apply it himself. Or he did, but as soon as he died no one cared. His wife (kinda Shae) was chosen by the court and the most powerful people around the throne. After Catheryn I died, Peter's grandson Peter II at the age of 11 became an emperor. There was a kinda-coup during his reign, the old Moscow aristocracy kinda took over, but he quickly died of smallpox anyway. After that Anna, the daugher of Peter's brother, became the Empress. On a number of "Conditions", that made her kinda-constitutional monarch. But then she just cerceied those "conditions" and punished those who wrote them. However, she was the first one to actually appoint an heir, so here is some progress. She didn't have her own kids, so she chose Peter's brother's grandson and her grand-nephew. The appointed heir, Ivan VI (fun part - he was named Ivan III on the coins at a time, apparently another 3 Ivans, dukes of Moscow, didn't count yet) wasn't even 1 year old, and he got quickly overthrown (not murdered immediately, though) by Peter's daughter Elizabeth. She, in turn, appointed Peter's grandson and her sister's son Peter to be the heir. Said Peter III was the emperor for about half a year and then was overthrown and suffered "a severe attack of hemorrhoidal colic and an apoplectic stroke" (it is unclear what exactly penetrated his rectum or hit his head). Peter III's wife, Catherine, became the Empress. For, like, no real reason at all. She was a reasonably good ruler, though. She even didn't forget to murder the imprisoned Ivan VI. It was somewhat expected that she would appoint her grandson Alexander the heir, but after her death her son Paul took the throne. Paul finally settled the succession in a clear way with male preference. He died pretty soon, though, from an apoplexic stroke with a snuffbox. His son Alexander succeeded him, according to the law. However, he left no legitiomate male heirs himself, so the throne was to be passed to his eldest eligible brother. There was a catch with eligibility, though: morganatic marriage was considered to be a reason for exclusion from succession. So there was one more coup around that, the eldest brother Konstantin was passed by (and died of cholera relatively soon after), the younger brother Nicholas I became the Emperor. And finally after him the line of succession was perfectly reasonable (father to eldest living son) for another almost 100 years until nearly every Romanov was murdered. Nowadays, due to the overall severity of Paul's laws (male preference, Russian Orthodox only, no morganatic marriages), pretty much every living Romanov's claim to the throne can be discarded, and one can make a case that, like, Charles, Prince of Wales or crown prince Frederik of Denmark is the best possible option.
Not to say that Peter the Great himself was THE YONGEST son of Tzar Alexey, but his oldest brother Fedor after brief ruling died without successors, his another older brother Ivan was considered "unhealthy" and after pressure from Naryshkin family was crowned as Petr's co-ruler instead of the Tzar (Naryshkina was second wife of Tzar Alexey, Petr was her child and Ivan, Fedor and Sofia were children of the first Alexey's wife). After that oldest child of Alexey, Sofia - his oldest daughter - became regent (as Ivan was unhealthy and Petr was young) and de-facto ruler. Later she was overthrown in a coup by Peter's loyalists. Ivan died in 1696 from illness
The most ridiculous element of the Balon over Rhaenys dicision, and it being within common law and common interest of the lords of the lands, is that all second sons in westeros would love it, but all first born sons would hate it. And the later hold all the power :D
I have a theory that Mushroom was the only firsthand source simply to ensure most people would discredit his accounts due to him being a court fool, while also to spice things up in order to add to book sales
Lol...book sales. Most people can't read lol...but I have always thought too, that Mushroom was the REAL primary source, and that we have to decide his truths from embellishments. Fools both here and in our own world did have an interesting role as being perpetually "humiliated" (at least laughed at) while in turn either making fun of that same upper class to their faces, or at least a small capacity to tell the lords and monarchs "hard truths" as Tyrion would put it. There is a lot more to the Westerosi fool than being a mockery. Tyrion himself does this...he is basically being a court fool right in TWOW with Brown Ben Plumm, and seems to always have the ability to both be honest and lie in the same conversation, sometimes sentence even, like the best of them; Varys, Illyrio Mopatis, Haldon Halfmaester, Brown Ben Plumm, Doran, Little finger, Stannis, The Kindly Man, Maesters everywhere, and the list goes on. The court fools are clearly nobody's fool.
The claim of Rhaenyra talking about her unborn son being passed over might be a bit of selective quoting by Gyldayn or one of his sources. It might be something Rhaenyra did originally say, but present it in isolation and imply that it represents her general position, of tacitly accepting women being okay to always pass over and focusing only on her son. Saying that her son was being robbed of his birthright could be perfectly fine with her holding the position that she should be queen and he be king only after her. But showing her saying just that might work to make the male only rule of succession more accepted, if even Rhaenyra herself recognized that it could be something where her claim was so weak it needn't even be mentioned.
Yep I tend to agree. It reads like a line about how parents speak about providing for their new children. And monarchs tend to think in terms of succession. Also, that a son specifically if she isn't queen, would be in grave danger of assassination or being taken hostage. They'd be seen as a threat.
Your overanalysis is absolutely wonderful - keep this content coming! I'll re-watch these, Prepping for Winter, and The Thousand Worlds book club stuff and take notes if we ever see Winds!
God I love this series of videos. I love how much thought is being put into picking apart the "established" history, which shows just how unestablished everything was. Gildayne or however his name is spelled looks so freaking biased here. I was unsure about the idea that the Maesters have been subtly manipulating history, but this video conclusively shows they had an agenda. Maybe this is just a matter of history being written by the victors, but I'm not so sure. The Oldtown conspiracy looks really strong here.
@@konradvonschnitzeldorf6506 Well history is written by the historians on the winning side. And if that is all we have access to then thats the same thing.
My favorite moments are when it is to laughable degrees for the 7. Let’s say there were 6 hits to take down a dragon (last one for the stranger), they were trying to convert someone to the 7, etc
Worth mentioning is a maester wrote a book about Corlys' most famous 9 voyages, and he was called Sea Snake in conjunction with using it for most of those trips (including travelling to Asshai) so it's not neccessarily an insult.
Oldtown crew: does literally anything Jahaerys: the power that that has, the intelligence that that has, the clearance that that has, the access that that has, the influence that that has, the profile that that has, the international implications that that has
When he says Rhaenyra argues her son should take over, I think that's a reference to The Anarchy, the English conflict this is all based on, where in the end it was agreed Steven (the rough comparison to Aegon 2) will take over, but Matilda's (Rhaenyra's) son Henry (at the start of the conflict Jacaerys Velaryon, but ended up being Aegon 3) will succeed him.
Sorry, I'm mixing Rhaenys and Rhaenyra there. But I think there is still a point- it seems pretty illogical, but that's the nature of succession, often political pragmatics were put first.
@@mankytoes I think the thing that's on GRRM's mind is Queen Isabella of England from the Accursed Kings series (books we *know* he's familiar with). IRL, she claimed the French throne for her son rather than herself, because by that time there had been at least one 'official' declaration that women couldn't assume the throne of France. GRRM's penchant for mixing and matching comes back to bite him here, because there's no reason for Rhaenys to make the same kind of claim Isabella did.
It's really easy to see Rhaenys, and by extension Rhaenyra, as nothing more than a modern example of an Empress Matilda-esque character who was passed over in the line of succession because she was a woman in a patriarchal society. Even if everything about the "Dragon X" gene is wrong, it is very VERY obvious that the Maesters and the Hightowers knew that something about certain Targaryen women, who are on record as being the ones who were given dragon eggs to hang out with while in the cradle, made dragons hatch and they were working to eliminate this threat from the world. They may not have the genetic sciences we do, but even Medel could figure this stuff out based on cross-breeding peas in his garden. Imagine what a cult of extremely intelligent scientists could figure out when they put their minds together. There is simply too much evidence to prove that the Maesters, who are very picky about he history that they, the historians, choose to record, are working to create a status quo that does not involve the Targaryens, magic, or dragons.
I disagree. Of course it is a patriarchal society but her being a woman was not the cause in my mind. Keep in mind that the Targaryen dynasty nearly collapsed after Meagors reign. Of all the warring parties the Faith militant was one of the most significant. They rejected Targaryen rule based on the legal law of marriage and the religious view of incest. Maegor crushed the faith brutally, abandoned his first wife who was a Hightower, and executed several grand maestors. There was a huge faith gathering outside of Oldtown and a Hightower army within. He was a disaster in so many ways but the reasons above are relevant. Jaehaerys was incredibly intelligent and knew his grip on power was weak at this time. But after corresponding with the Hightowers the leaders of the fanatics outside are killed, the problematic High Septon refusing to view the children as natural due to incestuous birth is killed, and after arriving a renegade Warriors Son is publicly added to the Kings Guard. Then he actually starts a movement to change the religion inregards to Targaryen marriage practices, which succeeded. To me Jaehaerys always had an empire state of mind, a utilitarian morality regarding the Targaryen dynasty. Simply put Rhaenyra was valuable in securing the wealth and stability of the Reach, Oldtown, and important cultural institutions. He had come to terms with the Hightowers and making good on those promises passed over his daughter. He had that luxury given the number of kids he had. In fact a great deal of time in the book is spent on the arraignment of their marriages where Jaehaerys viewed them as pieces to bind powerful houses to their regime. I am not excluding other conspiracies hatched by any of the parties involved but Rhaenyra is a political casualty that makes sense without it being about dragons or magic or whatever. He is keeping the peace just like I am sure he told himself after essentially usurping his older sisters claim. That resentment is clear in the book.
@@charlese2714 I mean, yeah, he was a good statesman in some ways, but instead of fighting the Faith and The Hightowers, he basically invited them into his bed and shared all of his secrets with them at the slumber party. Instead of fighting them and slaughtering people by the thousands, he let them become his closest advisors and promised he would never hurt them so long as they advised him and, without his knowledge, conspired against his reign from within. Rhaenys was a political casualty because they knew she was special AND she threatened a Targaryen-Hightower(Citadel-Faith) alliance that would have seen all of them sacked and replaced with her own advisors, killing their influence in King's Landing and with the royal family. That's how I see it, anyway.
@@manband20 just to clarify I am not someone who thinks Jaehaerys was God's gift to Westeros. However I do find him to be a practical leader who generally uses a cost benefit analysis to make decisions. These decisions are often made within the larger consideration of the kingdoms. Through the book it is obvious he has two objectives. The first is to solidify Targaryen power after they nearly lost everything. The second is to forge the disparate into a united kingdom with economic, political, and sometimes military policy. Why not continue the fight against the faith militant? Easier to just have their orders disbanded by controlling the High Septum. Why not attack the Hightowers? Because they are an ancient house running a sophisticated city that generates huge economic impact for the whole realm. Not to mention getting into a potential war with the entire Reach. This brings their wealth and resources, plus a military that can be combined with the stormlands and crown lands for considerable power. He built roads and brought about a common law system for the purpose of securing the great power his Grandfather forged. However except for mabye a few people individuals are small in his view. He did not want to improve the drinking water in King's Landing for the common people because the expense was not worth it to him. His wife had to change his mind. He argued against removing the nobles right to sleep with a bride on her wedding night. Outside of his oldest heirs the other children were political pawns he saw as nothing more than a means to bind noble houses to the Targaryen cause. He made peace with many but cut out his own daughter because her promiscuity meant she was no longer a valuable asset to the crowns diplomacy. So yes I believe he chose Baelon as the royal successor because he thought it would be better for the realm. Baelon was the masculine warrior type so many lords in Westeros idealize, even if he only existed as a puppet. Jaehaerys had no dislike for the Valeyrians. They were a minor noble family who came with them before the doom and had intermarried with them for generations. It is just the Hightower's offered more. Voice and influence in the Citadel and the Starry Sept, a huge trade network, influence in the Reach, and vast numbers of armies and navies. Again the fact that they rebelled and encouraged a religious war against his family is just too small a reason, in the mind of Jaehaerys, to not weild that power himself for "the greater good ". Though that is just my view at the moment.
I am a bit afraid that the show will ruin the mystery of the books and will settle some (Oldtown?) version. Unless they dare to add a layer and make the show kinda "educational video that they show to the Citadel scholars on history lessons".
Thanks for doing this @Preston Jacobs. I have read & listened to Fire and Blood over 100 times. No joke. And I thought I had a pretty good grasp on things by now. Of course, you make a video and shatter my know-it-all brain. Truly thank you. I have avoided watching any channels go over Fire and Blood. Can't resist your incite though, so clicked as soon as I saw this..now I have to go back to the videos ya did before this one. ✌❤ to right now
Imo Targ succession when ruling Dragonstone should be taken into account when it comes to "precedent", since clearly Westerosi (First Men/Andal) custom only seeps in via the councils. Sadly we know jack-all about that time (or Valyrian rules about that in general).
A small correction. At 10:35 you refer to princess Aerea as Jaehaerys' heir apparent. The correct term here is actually heir presumptive. Heir apparent specifically refers to an heir who cannot be displaced by the birth of someone higher in the succession order.
Well in our own history we have the English civil war known as "the anarchy", a dispute between Stephen of Blois nephew of Henry I and Empress Matilda daughter of Henry I ending with Henry II son of Matilda becoming king, so the child of Rhaenys had a claim acording to our history
So, abaout the "well estabilhed practice": One could argue that it was a well established practice among the nobility, regardless of how muddy and complicated the Targaryen succession was Especially because the targaryens would have their own customs, which didn't exclude the women from succession and allowed for the same ruler to have multiple spouses and to marry their siblings). Something that the Faith of the Seven and most of the Nobility would approve and saw as the right way to do it, because it is how they did it. Even then you could argue that it's not true because the North and the Iron Islands had (or could have, idk) different customs regarding succession, so it still does betray bians in the Maester's part, but the bias isn't that he's lying for political reasons, but that he sees this as the right way of doing it due to his background, regardless of the customs and reasons of others.
There is issues there though. Cersei is the heir to casterly rock, not kevan. It's pretty clear he's right that female daughters come before uncles, generally. There's definitely some shadiness going on. Whether it's dragons or something as simple as just... hightowers and the citadel are in league to rule over someone not as affiliated with each other.
@@e22ddie46 This exactly. Jack Goody wrote extensively on this issue in the real world. The system here is clearly a primogeniture-unigeniture-transgeneous (if these are the right words) favouring firstly inter-generation transition (described as downward by Goody), then cross-gender primogeniture ('sideways' by Goody) transition, with the direct descendants over brothers and sisters, then among them elder over younger. Cersei got the Rock over Kevan or any of Tywin's siblings, as the "downward" always goes before "sideways". It was very clear and if anything very well-established in many parts of the world.
What about the theory of Saera being the mother of Alicent Hightower. The order of the green hand has a whole series of videos about this theory and the role of the faith, the citadel and the Hightowers called the Rogue Princess…
I mean this theory is tbh quite rediculous, Alicent was born in 88 AC while Saera was in Oldtown in 85AC. So unless one assumes she lived hidden in the Hightower as Ottos secret mistress it does not hold much weight. Furthermore this would assume Ottos wife would be in on it and to an extend the family of ottos wife who we can assume were of a somewhat higher status and intrested in the pregnancy of a family member
Baelon was the best choice from Jaehaerys perspective because he and his son would have continued the Targaryen dynasty. If Rhaenys took the throne she would have been the last Targaryen ruler after her the Velaryons would be the new ruling dynasty that happened whit the Valois in real world France. My question is why Aemond never had more childrens he was still young so was his wife, a male heir would have changed evrything.
But Jaehery's mother was Alyssa Velaryon. Aegon the Conqueror's mother was Valaena Velaryon. The only difference would be that the dad is Velaryon and the mother is Targaryen. This could be more sorted by betrothing Laena to Viserys/Daemon and Laenor to Rhaenyra. A granddaughter of Baelon would become queen (if Rhaenys declares Laenor her heir) or a son of Baelon would become consort (if Rhaenys declares Laena her heir) Just intertwining the families further, and another benefit would be making the Velaryon fleet the Targaryen fleet.
I get this haunting image of Balo. Having this public announcement sprung on him as soon as he gets home, and having to grin and bear it until he can get a moment with his mom to grieve in private.
It's interesting to think about the maesters in the context of the Others. The maesters want to remove magic from the world by subverting memory. The Others want to eliminate memory.
We don't know what the Others want...other than they are searching for a fearless northern young man with a special sword, but whether they wish to crown or kill him is anyone's guess. The Others animate corpses, so really they're necromancers, probably powerful telepaths but I cannot say they want to eliminate memory, and nothing in the books points to that. In fact, Jon Snow points out that the wight they brought back who tries to kill Mormont, may have remembered where to go because he had been a man of the Night's Watch, so he seems to retain some memories. It's easy to place a lot of assumptions on the Others because of the tall tales and the show, but we honestly don't really know all that much about them, or what they want, other than they want to live
Do you think the Hightower’s were trying to shift the line of succession from Targaryen dragon riders to those less likely to ride dragons . Figured since only one of Baelons kids currently rode dragon at that time and was married to a non dragon riding Targaryen and all of Aemon kids and Grandkids were dragon riders leading to a dragon filled age. Also using your theory of needing a female to produce more dragons. Since Visaerys only rode for a year and his wife never rode a dragon it was likely that their children would not have as much dragon riding abilities. Where as the queen who never was marrying Corlys who great grandmother and great great grandmother was a Targaryen and his great aunt produced 4 dragon riders on her own the faith wanted to steer the line away from those who can produce dragons. Even the idea of Maegor marriage to a Hightower who is infertile was there way to reduce the number of dragons in the world. Since Daemon Targaryen wasn’t next in line and married off to someone in the Vale it was a way to guarantee that non dragon riding Targaryen were on the throne
Did you just state that Viserys' children should have less special genes because he rode for a year and his wife never did (he had two wives, so neither)? Lol. Literally ALL of his children who lived long enough are dragonriders...and Rhaenyra is a freaking dragon hatcher most likely. And ALL of Rhaenyra's children are dragonriders...that's a lot of dragonriders for people who "shouldn't be"... whatever that means. They're Targaryens. If the Maesters don't want dragonriders, then they don't want Targaryens because at this point in time, the two cannot be separated. The inbreeding is a big part of it...it's probably more likely they just tried to get them to not fuck their own cousins and brothers. I mean, I'm sure Oldtown would LOVE to be rid of them but that's a long term plan for sure. Lol. I love the Targaryens...but that shit is so wrong lol
I wonder if he's trying to bring in elements of the civil war between Stephen and Matilda after the death of Henry I? Henry I declared Matilda his heir as she was his only surviving child, and had children of her own, a powerful spouse, and a good deal of experience. After Henry died, Stephen realized that it would take some time for Matilda to hear the news and get to England, so he scooted over to Westminster and got himself crowned before she could. His barons had promised to support Matilda as ruler, but enough were swayed to Stephen's side that there was a years-long civil war. At some point, Matilda switched from saying that she was fighting for her own right to the English throne to saying that she was fighting for her son's right, which was apparently more acceptable to the patriarchal structures of the time. The civil war was only ended when Stephen, who had no children of his own, agreed to make Matilda's son his heir. He became Henry II and had his own incredibly dramatic succession issues. I think it's worth noting that there have been a whole lot of King Henrys but only one King Stephen; like King John, he doesn't have the best historical reputation and it seems that future rulers just didn't want to be associated with him.
Actually, Stephen had four children, 3 sons and a daughter. He tried to have his eldest son, Eustace, crowned as king but failed. He was forced to promise the throne to Henry as so many barons supported him and they wouldn't accept his son. Eustace was so enraged he went on a murderous rampage plundering church lands and died soon after in dubious circumstances, solidifying Henry's position as heir.
Septon Barth really does feel a lot more Slimey,intrusive and Manipulative on the Targeyean family under your Inspection and investigation. One question I have is how did House Baratheon separate from and Oppose Rhaenrya and House Velaryon later on?
And Gyldane, seemingly a great historian, comes across as a fool or a stooge. And here I was just thinking he was a boring old fart when I read the book (It was a struggle to read. I fell asleep many times, it was so dull. I am not happy about getting Fire and Blood pt.2 instead of the Winds of Winter.)
If Rhaenys did say that about robbing her son of his birth right it was because she believed they were making it about sex or because one of the arguments was her uncle already had male heirs.
I guess that if there are ANY potential Targaryen male heirs to choose from then females are discounted, in practise at least. That would be my guess as to why Rhaenys argues for her son rather than herself. This is still strange as to why Rhaenys would be cool with this when her grandmother is clearly a feminist and was backing her claim, so she firstly should've been arguing for herself, then her son as a last resort.
Alysanne is not really a feminist. She's just a woman who knows the value of her opinion and doesn't take it kindly when she casually dismissed without a good explanation. True, she is upholding her granddaughter's rights here, but I suspect that she would have fought just as hard to defend Rhaena's rights if she were male. Many of her other projects that she promoted could be said to be practical or modernising measures, such as ending the First Night and supporting the Nightswatch's construction of a replacement for the Nightfort.
Ah, OK, looks like Jaehaerys was both Oldtown doormat and his sister-wife's doormat. And they fought for influence over him for a long time, with Oldtown seemingly winning in the end. Ah, yes, he also was Rogar Baratheon's doormat for some time before his sister planned a coup with Oldtown and married him.
I think the thing with Rhaenys' son inheriting is a parallel to Salic and Semi-Salic laws of inheritance of the early middle ages. Under Salic Law women cannot inherit. Under Semi-Salic Law inheritance can pass through a woman so the grandson can inherit. So allowing Rheanys' son to inherit might be a proposal made by the most sexist agents at court as a compromise or a compromise aimed at appeasing said agents. That Gyldane pushes this as the main point of contention is quite revealing.
Just listened to all 3 of these again :) Still think you are somewhat off with Corlis' nickname. 1. Jamie do not like "Kingslayer", but dreams of "Goldenhand". 2. "Seasnake" is probably more like "sea-monster" or even "sea-dragon" than alluding to mythical attributes of sneaky land snakes :) 3. It makes narrative sense that the names alludes to Corlis being a power on the sea. With the Velaryons' power over sea and, maybe more importantly, overseas trade, and the Targaryans' power over land and air, the old power dynamics of Westeros is about to be thourogly overturned. For ages the centers of economic power have been seated on the east coast (why it's so is a bit of a mystery, geographicly speaking, but anyways). With trade and commerce through Old Town, Gold and minerals flowing from Landisport, and most of the bread basket in the Reach. The Targaryans setting up shop in King's Landing only somewhat changed this with a new big commercial Harbour. But they are still somewhat beholden to Old Town and the east coast for trade, commerce, learning, religion, naval power and maybe banking? The rise of Driftmark puts that dynamic in danger. More or less all of it. That kind of long distance trade is a threat to the citadels monopoly on knowledge too, for example. And to stop the Velaryons and the changing power structures, they need to be kept as far away from the Iron Throne as possible. That being said, it may very well coincide with a plan to kill off the dragons. But I don't think those geo-political elements should be overlooked.
In a world where TWOW drops posthumously, all I need for closure is a Preston Jacobs series outlining how you would predict ADOS would go. The longer the better. Maybe some videos for plot and then full character retrospectives. So much potential given how deeply you know the world. Especially considering I've spent more cumulative time watching your content than I did reading the books, you're as integral to my understanding of ASOIAF as George is at this point. Me reading the books vs these videos is completely different stories.
Hey Preston, would ever do a video on planetos Ancient Aliens i.e. the Great Empire of the Dawn? I loved the sci fi vids. Are we getting more of those?
i just realized dany's dragons might be growing faster/bigger under the pyramids. in America alligator's farmers keep their gators in the dark because it grow's them 2x-5x-6x faster. they can get a 2-3 year old gator as big as a 5-6 year old i know this fact about gators (reptiles).. and i wonder if this is the same for dragons also (reptiles) and the people who tricked dany into putting her dragons under the pyramids knew it to because they also have crocodilians there tyrion saw crocs sub bathing. they are secretly helping her dragons. might be varys minions he's from there..... they are still feeding the dragons down there.
I'm sorry...ALLIGATOR FARMERS?? Goddamn, I live here, why the fuck is the first I am hearing of this, and what in the old gods' names are we farming them for?? Also...really interesting take. I love it
@@nyz7971Well I'm not from Florida or Louisiana but I doubt they eat them much...I guess for their leather, more than likely. Gross. I learned something today though, so I am thankful
The case of Rhaenys and Laena reminds me of Frances Brandon and Jane Grey. Even though Frances (the daughter of Henry VIII’s sister) was still alive, her daughter was the heir.
Weren't Mary and Elizabeth restored to the line of succession as well at that time? And Edward passed them all over for Jane Grey when he was about to die? Or am I getting mixed up.
Probably because the king’s advisors didn’t like Frances’ husband, the Duke of Suffolk, or didn’t want him to become too powerful. Or something like that.
@Matt Eldridge No, I think you’re absolutely right. First, Edward only wanted Jane’s male heirs to inherit, but then he edited this letter to include her. It’s a fascinating document. Sounds like this hypothetical child could be a parallel to Laenor.
I was thinking the same thing! It took a bunch of weird circumstances to make Jane the nine-days-queen. If I recall correctly: King Edward VI (Henry VIII's son) wanted a Protestant male heir. As the last male Tudor left, he needed one of his Protestant female relatives to have a son. His eldest sister (Bloody Mary) was Catholic. His next sister (Elizabeth I) was Protestant, but Edward couldn't justify Elizabeth's claim over Mary, so both sisters were excluded. Edward's cousin Frances Brandon had no sons and was unlikely to have more children. Edward's made Frances' firstborn daughter Jane Grey's future son heir. Jane Grey was quickly married to the son of the Duke of Northumberland (an advisor and regent of Edward). Jane had no children yet when Edward was on his deathbed, so he changed his Will from "Lady Jane's sons" to "Lady Jane and her sons".
@@PurpleAlogia The War of the Roses and the Tudor dynasty that followed is such an incredible collection of history. It is a joy to read about. I became familiar with Jane Grey after watching a BBC documentary about her short reign. Mary and Elizabeth gathered their own army after the country rallied to the side of Henry's children instead of the relatively unknown Jane Grey. While in some ways people tried to use Jane Grey as a tool she fully intended to be a queen in her own right by making her husband a King Consort instead of the full title of King. And when captured she took full responsibility for her decisions denying she was forced into any of them. She did this knowing the consequences were death but it was more important to ensure her agency as a person, as a queen, was what was remembered. And it is.
Aenys named Aegon the Uncrowned his heir. Also, Jaehaerys became king over his older brother's daughters, so there was a precedent for passing over females.
Princess Rhaena never tries to gather support in the West to become Queen of Westeros over King Jaehaerys I. She went back to Fair Isle to find peace after the losses she endured during Maegor's reign.
In sad summary the Citadel & the Lords in Westeros want to retain their control. George does a phenomenal job in Fire & Blood. In Condal & Sapochnik I trust to fill in this outline!
I know this is literally an "overanalysis" but I will say that I actually don't think it's that crazy for Rhaenys to make the argument that her son should inherit. The reason being that if she was genuinely skipped on the basis that "you're female" then a male successor would be acceptable to those people who wanted one (which a hypothetical son would have been) and placated them. While at the same time Rhaenys herself is placated because it's still her line and her son that inherits. So it's, essentially, a compromise that would make both sides moderately satisfied. The people who wanted a male heir get a male heir and Rhaenys gets to have her line on the throne (and she would retain influence). So it kind of works in that way as a compromise between the two sides. Of course, that doesn't mean it wasn't desperate. She didn't know whether her child would be male, it wasn't even born yet and her being female probably was not the only reason why other people were opposing her (ie the Hightower plot) and so it was certainly unlikely that this compromise would have been accepted.
I think you are overthinking it. Why would Jaehaerys choose to Rhaenys if her children would be Valeryons? He wants Targaryens to continue to inherit the throne there for he goes with the next male child.
At this point, there's a targaryen blood in most Velaryons and Velaryon blood in most Targaryens. Aegon The Conqueror's mother was a Velaryon and Jaehaerys himself had a Velaryon mother (Alyssa Velaryon). The only difference this time would be the Targaryen being from the mother's side and Velaryon being the father's side.
I don't see the issue with Balon who is an adult man and experienced being chosen over a teenager like Raenys. Kings can choose their successors anyway.
Preston do not under estimate the love of the smallfork..don't you remember how they hid Robert Baratheon in the riverlands while the King''s men searched for him
Well...Prince Oberyn was the Red Viper. Would you dare think of him as a Red Dragon? A snake is a snake, and a dragon is a dragon. I do not think they are interchangeable in this context
@@hopedixon2133 I don't think that's necessarily true. In scandinavian/proto german mythology snakes in the sea are huge, legendary monsters while land snakes are devious creepers. They had a tendency to call them all worms tho, geberally speaking. I guess it cones down to if westeroshi/crown land westeroshi are familiar with actual snakes living in salt water environtments. Corlis himself might be, but i doubt the average, even learned man would be?
@@a.k.summers5633 You are correct in stating that Planetos does like to mix around the terms of worm, snake, dragon, wyvern...it's very reminiscent of the mixing of crows and ravens. And I'm not gonna lie, the first time I read Corlys' nickname, I too thought sea dragon in a sense. But I think GRRM does this on purpose so we make those assumptions, and get misled in the process. He's such a punk sometimes lol. I imagine GRRM links it to the German/Norse mythology as you did, and that sea snakes and land snakes are different as far as metaphors go. I mean, Prince Oberyn was definitely a sneaky snake if his brother Doran is telling the truth when he says that he (Doran) is the mild, safe grass hiding the bite of the Red Viper...but Doran is a lying liar who lies soooo who knows lol.
You could also turn it around and ask, does the snake as a devious nickname makes sense in the story? Are we supposed to think of Obyren? And if so, why and how? I think sea snake as "sea dragon" makes a lot more sense. It's an affectionate nickname, used by people in the book to descripe his adventuriousness and power, not his deviousness or shadyness. There's also the obvious reading where the Targs are the dragons of the air and the Velaryons are the dragons of the sea. A combination of air and sea power unseen in westeros before.
@@a.k.summers5633 I mean both of you, Charles the Bald was extremely hairy and went down in history as Charles the Bald. The grandson of Charlemagne. But Oberyn in particular since Dorne is admittedly based in Iberia, you should have a look at what the Portuguese monarchs went down as, from "The Useless" to "The Warrior King" to "The Philosopher" and "The wrathful". When it comes to animals you have the example of Carolus Rex being the Lion of Sweden and Sigurd Snake-in-the-eye.
Preaton, you ignored a very logical reason for Jahaerys to stop Rhaenys's succession. Her children, by name, are VELARYONS. Her marriage with Corlys was NOT matrilineal. If her line inherits, the Targaryens lose the Iron Throne, and the Velaryons become the top dog. This is something that Targs plotted vs other dragonlords during the doom of Valyria. Jahaerys would understand perfectly that should Rhaenys succeed, their house would at best become secondary.
Well, Rhaenys' child could've assumed the Targaryen name upon ascension to the throne after Rhaenys' death, like Harry the Heir will become an Arryn upon becoming lord of the Vale. Even in real history there have been cases of male descendants taking their mothers' name. Queen Maria Theresa, who was a Habsburg, and her husband Holy Roman Emperor Francis I, who was from the House of Lorraine, gave their children a new family name which combined both of theirs into Habsburg-Lorraine (House of Habsburg-Lorraine also became the legit successor House to the Habsburg and Lorraine dynasties at the same time). Similar thing could've been done in case of Rhaenys' kids.
The Targaryen/Velaryon bloodline is already very intertwined at this point. Remember Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys were all half Velaryon. Even Jaehaerys was half Velaryon. As said earlier, any child could just take up the Targaryen name when it came time to rule. At this point in time Targaryens either marry their siblings or a Velaryon. Only Maegor looked outside of his 2 bloodlines.
Plus, that could also be sorted by betrothals into the Targaryen family. Laena could marry Viserys or Daemon and Laenor could marry Rhaenyra and she would become queen after Rhaenys, ensuring their children are Targaryen's proper.
By saying well established practice he may have just been referring to succession in general, not just royal succession. The andal culture was heavily predisposed to only have male successors, Dorne is probably the only place in the 7 kingdoms where it wasn't a well established practice.
Why are you not the lore master for GoTs for HBO? How have they not offered you that job, how are you not helping write or at least keep story's straight compared to the source.
Well, for all we know, it's the Royal succession that has no-women rule, not the lordly succession. We should take a look at andal kingdoms and their monarchs to figure out if Rhaenys indeed had a claim
The Arryns of the Vale are "of the purest noble Andal blood" and they are primarily ruled by men, even when they are kings. I only saw one Queen...only a Queen Regent however, Sharra Arryn, who was visited by me (Visenya), and I took both her and her young son's crowns, and brought the Vale of Arryn into the dragon's hands. Not the Andals. The Gardeners had one Queen apparently, but just the one it seems, and they're First Men. So another no unfortunately...only Dorne.
Hmm, Jon Arryn didn't die of a "wasting sickness" Pycelle tells Ned that the "illness" that took him was rather sudden. It may have taken him time to die once he got sick from his poisoning, but he went from being in very good health for his age to suddenly being bedridden.
You are right, I suppose I connected the wasting to the "wasting potions" he was getting. But, as you say, it was fairly fast and there's only so much weight one can lose in a few days.
That was the show runner's decision to depict them as dark skin. In the books they are Valyrian. However, in universe this can be justified by Corwyn Velaryon (Corlys' father) marrying a Summer Islander or a person with the same colouring.
But that's after the great councils and Targs followed different rules on many things. Queen Victoria couldn't inherit Hannover in our world because of the salic law of Germany where she could inherit the British crown and that's two titles right next to eachother, westerosi and valyrian rules are probably further apart (you have to account for incest, polygamy and all combinations of both so how could normal westerosi succession even be implemented).
Lol at the quick recap of succession at about 40% through the video. Or, you could listen to about 64 hours of carmine and Preston discussing it together.
Another important point that should be made is that Valyrians are egalitarian when in comes to sucession. Or at least supposed to be. Yet the Old King cemented a precedent that is more sexist than the traditional Andal sucession. Maybe to prevent a dragon hatcher on the throne?
I hate to be that guy but as of 92 Jaehaerys hasn't had multiple *heirs apparent* it has just been Aemon. Everyone else before was *heir PRESUMPTIVE*, meaning they could (and in this case were) bumped down by future births, which *heirs apparent* can't be. Eg Bran was heir presumptive to Robb, not heir apparent, because Robb's potential children would replace him. Queen Elizabeth too was heir presumptive, not heir apparent, until er father's death, since it was possible (even if unlikely) for him to have a son who would replace her as heir, becoming heir apparent.
PLEASE read the whole thing before anyone comes at me. I see people get Male-preference Primogeniture wrong a lot (understandably, it's confusing). Under male preference the male line closest (descended) to the CURRENT king inherits over the female line. So Rhaenys would only be the rightful heir (if you can call a dictatorship rightful) if her father Aemon had been the king (he would have been the king and had no male line so then his daughters line would be next). Since he wasn't it follows through the male line, in this case Bealons. Now all that being said as Preston pointed out, there has never been a clear succession so we cant really say that the Targaryen's follow male-preference. It seems they just do whatever suits there fancy in the moment lol.
Hey Preston. Quick question I hope you can respond to. This certainly is more of a subconscious element or a thought not said out loud but Jaehaerys basically usurped his older sister's position and potentially even abandoned his eldest brother when he faced off against Maegor in battle. After that he could have married his elder sister but chose the younger, pushing Rhaena out of official power. Do you think some part of him supports the male line of succession because that would validate his own thoughts and actions? I could see him having conscious concerns whether the kingdoms would accept her given the masculine view of what a leader should be, hence the rebellions against is father. It just seems he really has no sympathy at all for Rhaena and is polite for appearances sake. He no doubt believes he was the best person to lead the kingdoms and to restore Targaryen power. But if he has some buried regret about how he at best abandoned his Aegon and Rhaena and at worst betrayed them to obtain the crown, could naming Baelon provide some post justification to ignore any guilt? A "I do this because it is right and therefore was right when I claimed the crown ". Again I don't think that was his conscious reasoning but succession issues plague him throughout his life to the point where he gives up and passes the decision on to others. For someone who restored Targaryen power and wrote about their genetic superiority that just seems like an out of character decision without an underlying reason.
With regard to Jaehaerys not supporting Aegon the Uncrowned - Jaehaerys was really young at that point, and a hostage of Maegor. Can't really fault him for that. As for Rhaena and Aerea... yeah there's definitely something there. If you say that Aegon the Uncrowned was the legitimate heir, then his daughter Aerea is the obvious successor, with his widow Rhaena as regent. If Maegor was legitimate, he named Aerea heir and his widow Rhaena is still a good candidate for regent. If you adopt Dornish succession laws, or say that Aerea is too young to sit on the throne, then Rhaena should rule. Jaehaerys is only king if being male matters more than anything else (and in practice Baratheon support is also important). Regardless, would Jaehaerys really think people would doubt his legitimacy if he chose Rhaenys over Baelon? Rhaena and her children are long dead. Jaehaerys has pulled off a pretty successful propaganda coup - all the histories love him. Your idea that its his subconscious guilt driving his decisions is really intriguing.
@@Mj_Jetson If I remember correctly they were held on Dragonstone by Visyna and they escaped on the night of her death, taking Dark Sister. Now their next appearance is after Aegons death in battle where Jaehaerys with the backing of his youngest sister, mother, and the full might of House Baratheon is declared King. Now Aegon had put out letters beseeching power houses for military support. They demand Aegon gain a victory for their support, which is where Jaehaerys and his remaining family now. Now how much Jaehaerys influenced the decision to wait, given his older siblings were at great risk, I don't think was confirmed. However given his commanding presence and that he is not far off from the day of complete power i do believe Baratheon and Jaehaerys discussed this at length. In the end let the dragons, throne claimants and their forces destroy each other. That is the simplest and safest way for your claim to have real wheight. Which is why you abandon Aegon to his fate. Or an even more manipulative tactic like if we don't keep the forces required here then you Jaehaerys, your sister and mother will meet a terrible death. All of course to build a relationship with Jaehaerys that will certainly making the Baratheons and the stormlands one of the preeminent families in Westeros
Timing-wise, Jaehaerys was actually unable to marry Rhaena. So, during the time of Jaehaery's early reign, he was a puppet of Rogar Baratheon. The Faith was super against incest marriages and married Rhaena to Andrew Farman. They had also sent up a marriage for Alysanne with Orryn Baratheon and Jaehaerys jumped in married her first.
@@Mj_Jetson i was not saying there is a direct one to ratio, not at all. I explained more of my practical thoughts in a response to another comment. What I meant to say is thing's go from bad to worse with Rhaena, who is a dragonrider. The circumstances at hand made Jaehaerys ascension the most likely to succeed and was therefore the right thing to do. Did he know this was stepping over Rhaena, after all she fought and suffered, absolutely. Now there is a succession issue between siblings that mirrors his past. In his mind he has to see himself as Baelon, even subconsciously. There really is some juicy stuff in this book for Jaehaerys and dealing with his family is a big part of that.
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin However a betrothal between Jaehaerys and Rhaena was perfectly feasible especially since she had already birthed the twins. It would easily link the two Targaryen claims into a united family because Jaehaerys and his group really screwed over Rhaena. I believe as a political alliance they were going to try and wed Rhaena and Orys. That's why she married the no account son of a minor lord who sheltered her. She wasn't helping Jaehaerys anymore faith was incredibly against children produced via incest but that High Septum mysteriously dies the night before Jaehaerys and Allisane show up in old town. The leaders of the remaining fanatics are killed. Jaehaerys arrives and gets quite a lot of personal time with Hightower. Targaryen exceptionalism allows for a different coupling/mating process that eventually wins the day.
this will probably be ignored as it is super late. But i always saw it as "you take my claim, and you would take my child's claim! Not prioritizing her kid but more like "me and then my children"
"And since when does the opinion of the smallfolk matter?
It's also an odd statement to say the smallfolk loved Baelon.
Which smallfolk? All of them?
Was there a pole or something?"
Most underrated humor, right here (small)folks.
Ohh, the dance of dragons, or how the mighty Velaryons fall! It is such a sad view to see the once proud house being nothing more than a footnote of Stannis' minor lords of the narrow sea by start of the main story.
Yeah, little Monterys Velaryon is the ”rightful” king according to Westerosi succession (Jaehaerys -> Rhaenys -> Jacaerys/Addam? -> Baela & Alyn -> house Velaryon -> Monford -> Monterys.
This succession of the Iron Throne thing reminds a lot about succession in the Russian Empire for the first 100 years.
Peter the Great left a rule "The current Emperor chooses the successor", without even stating that the successor has to be Romanov. And he didn't even apply it himself. Or he did, but as soon as he died no one cared. His wife (kinda Shae) was chosen by the court and the most powerful people around the throne.
After Catheryn I died, Peter's grandson Peter II at the age of 11 became an emperor. There was a kinda-coup during his reign, the old Moscow aristocracy kinda took over, but he quickly died of smallpox anyway.
After that Anna, the daugher of Peter's brother, became the Empress. On a number of "Conditions", that made her kinda-constitutional monarch. But then she just cerceied those "conditions" and punished those who wrote them. However, she was the first one to actually appoint an heir, so here is some progress. She didn't have her own kids, so she chose Peter's brother's grandson and her grand-nephew.
The appointed heir, Ivan VI (fun part - he was named Ivan III on the coins at a time, apparently another 3 Ivans, dukes of Moscow, didn't count yet) wasn't even 1 year old, and he got quickly overthrown (not murdered immediately, though) by Peter's daughter Elizabeth. She, in turn, appointed Peter's grandson and her sister's son Peter to be the heir. Said Peter III was the emperor for about half a year and then was overthrown and suffered "a severe attack of hemorrhoidal colic and an apoplectic stroke" (it is unclear what exactly penetrated his rectum or hit his head).
Peter III's wife, Catherine, became the Empress. For, like, no real reason at all. She was a reasonably good ruler, though. She even didn't forget to murder the imprisoned Ivan VI. It was somewhat expected that she would appoint her grandson Alexander the heir, but after her death her son Paul took the throne.
Paul finally settled the succession in a clear way with male preference. He died pretty soon, though, from an apoplexic stroke with a snuffbox. His son Alexander succeeded him, according to the law. However, he left no legitiomate male heirs himself, so the throne was to be passed to his eldest eligible brother. There was a catch with eligibility, though: morganatic marriage was considered to be a reason for exclusion from succession. So there was one more coup around that, the eldest brother Konstantin was passed by (and died of cholera relatively soon after), the younger brother Nicholas I became the Emperor. And finally after him the line of succession was perfectly reasonable (father to eldest living son) for another almost 100 years until nearly every Romanov was murdered.
Nowadays, due to the overall severity of Paul's laws (male preference, Russian Orthodox only, no morganatic marriages), pretty much every living Romanov's claim to the throne can be discarded, and one can make a case that, like, Charles, Prince of Wales or crown prince Frederik of Denmark is the best possible option.
I found this comment very enjoyable and informative, thank you!
You should make a video out of this comment. Awesome!
After Elizabeth, they weren't even Russian (or romanovs for that matter)
The story of Ivan VI is one of the saddest stories I’ve ever heard. I used to listen to the Russian Rulers History Podcast.
Not to say that Peter the Great himself was THE YONGEST son of Tzar Alexey, but his oldest brother Fedor after brief ruling died without successors, his another older brother Ivan was considered "unhealthy" and after pressure from Naryshkin family was crowned as Petr's co-ruler instead of the Tzar (Naryshkina was second wife of Tzar Alexey, Petr was her child and Ivan, Fedor and Sofia were children of the first Alexey's wife). After that oldest child of Alexey, Sofia - his oldest daughter - became regent (as Ivan was unhealthy and Petr was young) and de-facto ruler. Later she was overthrown in a coup by Peter's loyalists. Ivan died in 1696 from illness
The most ridiculous element of the Balon over Rhaenys dicision, and it being within common law and common interest of the lords of the lands, is that all second sons in westeros would love it, but all first born sons would hate it. And the later hold all the power :D
“choice itself is not the obvious choice”
is a solid gold take on monarchy
I have a theory that Mushroom was the only firsthand source simply to ensure most people would discredit his accounts due to him being a court fool, while also to spice things up in order to add to book sales
Lol...book sales. Most people can't read lol...but I have always thought too, that Mushroom was the REAL primary source, and that we have to decide his truths from embellishments. Fools both here and in our own world did have an interesting role as being perpetually "humiliated" (at least laughed at) while in turn either making fun of that same upper class to their faces, or at least a small capacity to tell the lords and monarchs "hard truths" as Tyrion would put it. There is a lot more to the Westerosi fool than being a mockery.
Tyrion himself does this...he is basically being a court fool right in TWOW with Brown Ben Plumm, and seems to always have the ability to both be honest and lie in the same conversation, sometimes sentence even, like the best of them; Varys, Illyrio Mopatis, Haldon Halfmaester, Brown Ben Plumm, Doran, Little finger, Stannis, The Kindly Man, Maesters everywhere, and the list goes on. The court fools are clearly nobody's fool.
@@hopedixon2133 the only ones interested in a history book would be political leaders, maesters, students, and bookworms
People who can read
The claim of Rhaenyra talking about her unborn son being passed over might be a bit of selective quoting by Gyldayn or one of his sources. It might be something Rhaenyra did originally say, but present it in isolation and imply that it represents her general position, of tacitly accepting women being okay to always pass over and focusing only on her son. Saying that her son was being robbed of his birthright could be perfectly fine with her holding the position that she should be queen and he be king only after her. But showing her saying just that might work to make the male only rule of succession more accepted, if even Rhaenyra herself recognized that it could be something where her claim was so weak it needn't even be mentioned.
That was my instinct as well
Yep I tend to agree. It reads like a line about how parents speak about providing for their new children. And monarchs tend to think in terms of succession.
Also, that a son specifically if she isn't queen, would be in grave danger of assassination or being taken hostage. They'd be seen as a threat.
Rhaenys*
@@shannond7437 Yes, not Rhaenyra, details matter.
Your overanalysis is absolutely wonderful - keep this content coming! I'll re-watch these, Prepping for Winter, and The Thousand Worlds book club stuff and take notes if we ever see Winds!
God I love this series of videos. I love how much thought is being put into picking apart the "established" history, which shows just how unestablished everything was. Gildayne or however his name is spelled looks so freaking biased here. I was unsure about the idea that the Maesters have been subtly manipulating history, but this video conclusively shows they had an agenda. Maybe this is just a matter of history being written by the victors, but I'm not so sure. The Oldtown conspiracy looks really strong here.
Everyone is biased. History isn't written by the victory, but by historians. And every person has their agenda, willingly or not.
@@konradvonschnitzeldorf6506 Well history is written by the historians on the winning side. And if that is all we have access to then thats the same thing.
My favorite moments are when it is to laughable degrees for the 7. Let’s say there were 6 hits to take down a dragon (last one for the stranger), they were trying to convert someone to the 7, etc
@@konradvonschnitzeldorf6506 American history textbooks over the years are an easy example of biases all too often favoring the winning side.
@@shannond7437 all textbooks are biased mate
Worth mentioning is a maester wrote a book about Corlys' most famous 9 voyages, and he was called Sea Snake in conjunction with using it for most of those trips (including travelling to Asshai) so it's not neccessarily an insult.
Oldtown crew: does literally anything
Jahaerys: the power that that has, the intelligence that that has, the clearance that that has, the access that that has, the influence that that has, the profile that that has, the international implications that that has
god im living for this 💀💀💀
I’ve been leeching myself all week in anticipation for this
Good, you need to keep those humours in check
When he says Rhaenyra argues her son should take over, I think that's a reference to The Anarchy, the English conflict this is all based on, where in the end it was agreed Steven (the rough comparison to Aegon 2) will take over, but Matilda's (Rhaenyra's) son Henry (at the start of the conflict Jacaerys Velaryon, but ended up being Aegon 3) will succeed him.
Sorry, I'm mixing Rhaenys and Rhaenyra there. But I think there is still a point- it seems pretty illogical, but that's the nature of succession, often political pragmatics were put first.
@@mankytoes I think the thing that's on GRRM's mind is Queen Isabella of England from the Accursed Kings series (books we *know* he's familiar with). IRL, she claimed the French throne for her son rather than herself, because by that time there had been at least one 'official' declaration that women couldn't assume the throne of France.
GRRM's penchant for mixing and matching comes back to bite him here, because there's no reason for Rhaenys to make the same kind of claim Isabella did.
It's really easy to see Rhaenys, and by extension Rhaenyra, as nothing more than a modern example of an Empress Matilda-esque character who was passed over in the line of succession because she was a woman in a patriarchal society.
Even if everything about the "Dragon X" gene is wrong, it is very VERY obvious that the Maesters and the Hightowers knew that something about certain Targaryen women, who are on record as being the ones who were given dragon eggs to hang out with while in the cradle, made dragons hatch and they were working to eliminate this threat from the world. They may not have the genetic sciences we do, but even Medel could figure this stuff out based on cross-breeding peas in his garden.
Imagine what a cult of extremely intelligent scientists could figure out when they put their minds together.
There is simply too much evidence to prove that the Maesters, who are very picky about he history that they, the historians, choose to record, are working to create a status quo that does not involve the Targaryens, magic, or dragons.
I disagree. Of course it is a patriarchal society but her being a woman was not the cause in my mind. Keep in mind that the Targaryen dynasty nearly collapsed after Meagors reign. Of all the warring parties the Faith militant was one of the most significant. They rejected Targaryen rule based on the legal law of marriage and the religious view of incest. Maegor crushed the faith brutally, abandoned his first wife who was a Hightower, and executed several grand maestors. There was a huge faith gathering outside of Oldtown and a Hightower army within. He was a disaster in so many ways but the reasons above are relevant. Jaehaerys was incredibly intelligent and knew his grip on power was weak at this time. But after corresponding with the Hightowers the leaders of the fanatics outside are killed, the problematic High Septon refusing to view the children as natural due to incestuous birth is killed, and after arriving a renegade Warriors Son is publicly added to the Kings Guard. Then he actually starts a movement to change the religion inregards to Targaryen marriage practices, which succeeded. To me Jaehaerys always had an empire state of mind, a utilitarian morality regarding the Targaryen dynasty. Simply put Rhaenyra was valuable in securing the wealth and stability of the Reach, Oldtown, and important cultural institutions. He had come to terms with the Hightowers and making good on those promises passed over his daughter. He had that luxury given the number of kids he had. In fact a great deal of time in the book is spent on the arraignment of their marriages where Jaehaerys viewed them as pieces to bind powerful houses to their regime. I am not excluding other conspiracies hatched by any of the parties involved but Rhaenyra is a political casualty that makes sense without it being about dragons or magic or whatever. He is keeping the peace just like I am sure he told himself after essentially usurping his older sisters claim. That resentment is clear in the book.
too much evidence to prove, huh
No magic, no Targaryens, no dragons, sounds b-b-b-BASED
@@charlese2714 I mean, yeah, he was a good statesman in some ways, but instead of fighting the Faith and The Hightowers, he basically invited them into his bed and shared all of his secrets with them at the slumber party.
Instead of fighting them and slaughtering people by the thousands, he let them become his closest advisors and promised he would never hurt them so long as they advised him and, without his knowledge, conspired against his reign from within.
Rhaenys was a political casualty because they knew she was special AND she threatened a Targaryen-Hightower(Citadel-Faith) alliance that would have seen all of them sacked and replaced with her own advisors, killing their influence in King's Landing and with the royal family.
That's how I see it, anyway.
@@manband20 just to clarify I am not someone who thinks Jaehaerys was God's gift to Westeros. However I do find him to be a practical leader who generally uses a cost benefit analysis to make decisions. These decisions are often made within the larger consideration of the kingdoms. Through the book it is obvious he has two objectives. The first is to solidify Targaryen power after they nearly lost everything. The second is to forge the disparate into a united kingdom with economic, political, and sometimes military policy. Why not continue the fight against the faith militant? Easier to just have their orders disbanded by controlling the High Septum. Why not attack the Hightowers? Because they are an ancient house running a sophisticated city that generates huge economic impact for the whole realm. Not to mention getting into a potential war with the entire Reach. This brings their wealth and resources, plus a military that can be combined with the stormlands and crown lands for considerable power. He built roads and brought about a common law system for the purpose of securing the great power his Grandfather forged. However except for mabye a few people individuals are small in his view. He did not want to improve the drinking water in King's Landing for the common people because the expense was not worth it to him. His wife had to change his mind. He argued against removing the nobles right to sleep with a bride on her wedding night. Outside of his oldest heirs the other children were political pawns he saw as nothing more than a means to bind noble houses to the Targaryen cause. He made peace with many but cut out his own daughter because her promiscuity meant she was no longer a valuable asset to the crowns diplomacy. So yes I believe he chose Baelon as the royal successor because he thought it would be better for the realm. Baelon was the masculine warrior type so many lords in Westeros idealize, even if he only existed as a puppet. Jaehaerys had no dislike for the Valeyrians. They were a minor noble family who came with them before the doom and had intermarried with them for generations. It is just the Hightower's offered more. Voice and influence in the Citadel and the Starry Sept, a huge trade network, influence in the Reach, and vast numbers of armies and navies. Again the fact that they rebelled and encouraged a religious war against his family is just too small a reason, in the mind of Jaehaerys, to not weild that power himself for "the greater good ". Though that is just my view at the moment.
Just got back home from work, what a blessing. Thank you!
I feel you
I will never get tired of how your over the top musical introductions cut straight to basic narration. The juxtaposition gets me every time
House of the Dragon is definitely a series worth exploring and digging into every chapter to explore.
Edit:I mean Fire and Blood.
Fire and Blood is the book, House of the Dragon is the TV show
I am a bit afraid that the show will ruin the mystery of the books and will settle some (Oldtown?) version. Unless they dare to add a layer and make the show kinda "educational video that they show to the Citadel scholars on history lessons".
Thanks for doing this @Preston Jacobs. I have read & listened to Fire and Blood over 100 times. No joke. And I thought I had a pretty good grasp on things by now. Of course, you make a video and shatter my know-it-all brain. Truly thank you. I have avoided watching any channels go over Fire and Blood. Can't resist your incite though, so clicked as soon as I saw this..now I have to go back to the videos ya did before this one. ✌❤ to right now
Imo Targ succession when ruling Dragonstone should be taken into account when it comes to "precedent", since clearly Westerosi (First Men/Andal) custom only seeps in via the councils. Sadly we know jack-all about that time (or Valyrian rules about that in general).
A small correction. At 10:35 you refer to princess Aerea as Jaehaerys' heir apparent. The correct term here is actually heir presumptive. Heir apparent specifically refers to an heir who cannot be displaced by the birth of someone higher in the succession order.
Man I love your analysis of these books. I seem to miss all of the small details
Love this series so far!!! Can’t wait for the next one please don’t make me wait a whole week lol
This is just what I’ve been waiting for. Thank you!
Well in our own history we have the English civil war known as "the anarchy", a dispute between Stephen of Blois nephew of Henry I and Empress Matilda daughter of Henry I ending with Henry II son of Matilda becoming king, so the child of Rhaenys had a claim acording to our history
That comes in later with Rhaenyra and her son Aegon III
(Only after Stephen of Blois ruled all his life and died.)
@@Hana9916 Yes, he died a year after the truce with Henry II where he became Stephen’s heir
So, abaout the "well estabilhed practice": One could argue that it was a well established practice among the nobility, regardless of how muddy and complicated the Targaryen succession was Especially because the targaryens would have their own customs, which didn't exclude the women from succession and allowed for the same ruler to have multiple spouses and to marry their siblings). Something that the Faith of the Seven and most of the Nobility would approve and saw as the right way to do it, because it is how they did it.
Even then you could argue that it's not true because the North and the Iron Islands had (or could have, idk) different customs regarding succession, so it still does betray bians in the Maester's part, but the bias isn't that he's lying for political reasons, but that he sees this as the right way of doing it due to his background, regardless of the customs and reasons of others.
I interpreted it as that also
There is issues there though. Cersei is the heir to casterly rock, not kevan. It's pretty clear he's right that female daughters come before uncles, generally. There's definitely some shadiness going on.
Whether it's dragons or something as simple as just... hightowers and the citadel are in league to rule over someone not as affiliated with each other.
@@e22ddie46 This exactly. Jack Goody wrote extensively on this issue in the real world. The system here is clearly a primogeniture-unigeniture-transgeneous (if these are the right words) favouring firstly inter-generation transition (described as downward by Goody), then cross-gender primogeniture ('sideways' by Goody) transition, with the direct descendants over brothers and sisters, then among them elder over younger. Cersei got the Rock over Kevan or any of Tywin's siblings, as the "downward" always goes before "sideways". It was very clear and if anything very well-established in many parts of the world.
What about the theory of Saera being the mother of Alicent Hightower. The order of the green hand has a whole series of videos about this theory and the role of the faith, the citadel and the Hightowers called the Rogue Princess…
I mean this theory is tbh quite rediculous, Alicent was born in 88 AC while Saera was in Oldtown in 85AC. So unless one assumes she lived hidden in the Hightower as Ottos secret mistress it does not hold much weight. Furthermore this would assume Ottos wife would be in on it and to an extend the family of ottos wife who we can assume were of a somewhat higher status and intrested in the pregnancy of a family member
Just found your channel mate, and loving every bit!
Thank you for another excellent video, Preston! Keep up the great work.
I'm enjoying this series & looking forward to the next one. But when is the next time traveling Bran video coming out!?
It will be before Winds of Winter, so stop your complaining.
Baelon was the best choice from Jaehaerys perspective because he and his son would have continued the Targaryen dynasty.
If Rhaenys took the throne she would have been the last Targaryen ruler after her the Velaryons would be the new ruling dynasty that happened whit the Valois in real world France.
My question is why Aemond never had more childrens he was still young so was his wife, a male heir would have changed evrything.
But Jaehery's mother was Alyssa Velaryon. Aegon the Conqueror's mother was Valaena Velaryon. The only difference would be that the dad is Velaryon and the mother is Targaryen. This could be more sorted by betrothing Laena to Viserys/Daemon and Laenor to Rhaenyra. A granddaughter of Baelon would become queen (if Rhaenys declares Laenor her heir) or a son of Baelon would become consort (if Rhaenys declares Laena her heir) Just intertwining the families further, and another benefit would be making the Velaryon fleet the Targaryen fleet.
I get this haunting image of Balo. Having this public announcement sprung on him as soon as he gets home, and having to grin and bear it until he can get a moment with his mom to grieve in private.
It's interesting to think about the maesters in the context of the Others. The maesters want to remove magic from the world by subverting memory. The Others want to eliminate memory.
We don't know what the Others want...other than they are searching for a fearless northern young man with a special sword, but whether they wish to crown or kill him is anyone's guess.
The Others animate corpses, so really they're necromancers, probably powerful telepaths but I cannot say they want to eliminate memory, and nothing in the books points to that. In fact, Jon Snow points out that the wight they brought back who tries to kill Mormont, may have remembered where to go because he had been a man of the Night's Watch, so he seems to retain some memories. It's easy to place a lot of assumptions on the Others because of the tall tales and the show, but we honestly don't really know all that much about them, or what they want, other than they want to live
Great analysis as always. Preston needs to go ahead and write a fan fiction version of TWOW.
Do you think the Hightower’s were trying to shift the line of succession from Targaryen dragon riders to those less likely to ride dragons . Figured since only one of Baelons kids currently rode dragon at that time and was married to a non dragon riding Targaryen and all of Aemon kids and Grandkids were dragon riders leading to a dragon filled age. Also using your theory of needing a female to produce more dragons. Since Visaerys only rode for a year and his wife never rode a dragon it was likely that their children would not have as much dragon riding abilities. Where as the queen who never was marrying Corlys who great grandmother and great great grandmother was a Targaryen and his great aunt produced 4 dragon riders on her own the faith wanted to steer the line away from those who can produce dragons. Even the idea of Maegor marriage to a Hightower who is infertile was there way to reduce the number of dragons in the world. Since Daemon Targaryen wasn’t next in line and married off to someone in the Vale it was a way to guarantee that non dragon riding Targaryen were on the throne
Did you just state that Viserys' children should have less special genes because he rode for a year and his wife never did (he had two wives, so neither)? Lol. Literally ALL of his children who lived long enough are dragonriders...and Rhaenyra is a freaking dragon hatcher most likely. And ALL of Rhaenyra's children are dragonriders...that's a lot of dragonriders for people who "shouldn't be"... whatever that means. They're Targaryens. If the Maesters don't want dragonriders, then they don't want Targaryens because at this point in time, the two cannot be separated.
The inbreeding is a big part of it...it's probably more likely they just tried to get them to not fuck their own cousins and brothers. I mean, I'm sure Oldtown would LOVE to be rid of them but that's a long term plan for sure. Lol. I love the Targaryens...but that shit is so wrong lol
AWESOME. Preston King!
I wonder if he's trying to bring in elements of the civil war between Stephen and Matilda after the death of Henry I? Henry I declared Matilda his heir as she was his only surviving child, and had children of her own, a powerful spouse, and a good deal of experience. After Henry died, Stephen realized that it would take some time for Matilda to hear the news and get to England, so he scooted over to Westminster and got himself crowned before she could. His barons had promised to support Matilda as ruler, but enough were swayed to Stephen's side that there was a years-long civil war. At some point, Matilda switched from saying that she was fighting for her own right to the English throne to saying that she was fighting for her son's right, which was apparently more acceptable to the patriarchal structures of the time. The civil war was only ended when Stephen, who had no children of his own, agreed to make Matilda's son his heir. He became Henry II and had his own incredibly dramatic succession issues.
I think it's worth noting that there have been a whole lot of King Henrys but only one King Stephen; like King John, he doesn't have the best historical reputation and it seems that future rulers just didn't want to be associated with him.
Actually, Stephen had four children, 3 sons and a daughter. He tried to have his eldest son, Eustace, crowned as king but failed. He was forced to promise the throne to Henry as so many barons supported him and they wouldn't accept his son. Eustace was so enraged he went on a murderous rampage plundering church lands and died soon after in dubious circumstances, solidifying Henry's position as heir.
Septon Barth really does feel a lot more Slimey,intrusive and Manipulative on the Targeyean family under your Inspection and investigation.
One question I have is how did House Baratheon separate from and Oppose Rhaenrya and House Velaryon later on?
And Gyldane, seemingly a great historian, comes across as a fool or a stooge. And here I was just thinking he was a boring old fart when I read the book (It was a struggle to read. I fell asleep many times, it was so dull. I am not happy about getting Fire and Blood pt.2 instead of the Winds of Winter.)
If Rhaenys did say that about robbing her son of his birth right it was because she believed they were making it about sex or because one of the arguments was her uncle already had male heirs.
I guess that if there are ANY potential Targaryen male heirs to choose from then females are discounted, in practise at least. That would be my guess as to why Rhaenys argues for her son rather than herself.
This is still strange as to why Rhaenys would be cool with this when her grandmother is clearly a feminist and was backing her claim, so she firstly should've been arguing for herself, then her son as a last resort.
Alysanne is not really a feminist. She's just a woman who knows the value of her opinion and doesn't take it kindly when she casually dismissed without a good explanation. True, she is upholding her granddaughter's rights here, but I suspect that she would have fought just as hard to defend Rhaena's rights if she were male. Many of her other projects that she promoted could be said to be practical or modernising measures, such as ending the First Night and supporting the Nightswatch's construction of a replacement for the Nightfort.
I hope you never stop to overanalyzing stuff Preston!
Ah, OK, looks like Jaehaerys was both Oldtown doormat and his sister-wife's doormat. And they fought for influence over him for a long time, with Oldtown seemingly winning in the end.
Ah, yes, he also was Rogar Baratheon's doormat for some time before his sister planned a coup with Oldtown and married him.
I do love your videos can't wait for more parts and I can't wait for the show to actually start
I think the thing with Rhaenys' son inheriting is a parallel to Salic and Semi-Salic laws of inheritance of the early middle ages. Under Salic Law women cannot inherit. Under Semi-Salic Law inheritance can pass through a woman so the grandson can inherit. So allowing Rheanys' son to inherit might be a proposal made by the most sexist agents at court as a compromise or a compromise aimed at appeasing said agents. That Gyldane pushes this as the main point of contention is quite revealing.
Sometimes overanalysis is just the right amount of analysis
Just listened to all 3 of these again :)
Still think you are somewhat off with Corlis' nickname.
1. Jamie do not like "Kingslayer", but dreams of "Goldenhand".
2. "Seasnake" is probably more like "sea-monster" or even "sea-dragon" than alluding to mythical attributes of sneaky land snakes :)
3. It makes narrative sense that the names alludes to Corlis being a power on the sea.
With the Velaryons' power over sea and, maybe more importantly, overseas trade, and the Targaryans' power over land and air, the old power dynamics of Westeros is about to be thourogly overturned. For ages the centers of economic power have been seated on the east coast (why it's so is a bit of a mystery, geographicly speaking, but anyways). With trade and commerce through Old Town, Gold and minerals flowing from Landisport, and most of the bread basket in the Reach.
The Targaryans setting up shop in King's Landing only somewhat changed this with a new big commercial Harbour. But they are still somewhat beholden to Old Town and the east coast for trade, commerce, learning, religion, naval power and maybe banking?
The rise of Driftmark puts that dynamic in danger. More or less all of it. That kind of long distance trade is a threat to the citadels monopoly on knowledge too, for example.
And to stop the Velaryons and the changing power structures, they need to be kept as far away from the Iron Throne as possible.
That being said, it may very well coincide with a plan to kill off the dragons. But I don't think those geo-political elements should be overlooked.
In a world where TWOW drops posthumously, all I need for closure is a Preston Jacobs series outlining how you would predict ADOS would go. The longer the better. Maybe some videos for plot and then full character retrospectives. So much potential given how deeply you know the world. Especially considering I've spent more cumulative time watching your content than I did reading the books, you're as integral to my understanding of ASOIAF as George is at this point. Me reading the books vs these videos is completely different stories.
Goddamn this is good. Much respect for you my friend!
Where’s time traveling bran part 5 😭😭 I was very happy about this video but I thought you would drop the bran one first. Great video
Hey Preston, would ever do a video on planetos Ancient Aliens i.e. the Great Empire of the Dawn? I loved the sci fi vids. Are we getting more of those?
After watching your videos I'm 100% rooting for euron to destroy oldtown
They deserve it
PJ IS BACK FOMOS
My favorite part of the week 😍
Loving this series!
8:04 it's basically semi salic law but the women's Descendants are above the male's
i just realized dany's dragons might be growing faster/bigger under the pyramids. in America alligator's farmers keep their gators in the dark because it grow's them 2x-5x-6x faster. they can get a 2-3 year old gator as big as a 5-6 year old i know this fact about gators (reptiles).. and i wonder if this is the same for dragons also (reptiles) and the people who tricked dany into putting her dragons under the pyramids knew it to because they also have crocodilians there tyrion saw crocs sub bathing. they are secretly helping her dragons. might be varys minions he's from there..... they are still feeding the dragons down there.
It may be. One thing to remember is the parallel to Bran whose gifts were unlocked in dark crypts. The dragons have been given the same fate.
I'm sorry...ALLIGATOR FARMERS?? Goddamn, I live here, why the fuck is the first I am hearing of this, and what in the old gods' names are we farming them for??
Also...really interesting take. I love it
@@hopedixon2133 probably food....
@@nyz7971Well I'm not from Florida or Louisiana but I doubt they eat them much...I guess for their leather, more than likely. Gross. I learned something today though, so I am thankful
@@hopedixon2133 they use their skins for bags and people eat them as well. I had some when I visited new orleans its delicious
This is beyond Amazing💯🔥🔥🔥
The case of Rhaenys and Laena reminds me of Frances Brandon and Jane Grey. Even though Frances (the daughter of Henry VIII’s sister) was still alive, her daughter was the heir.
Weren't Mary and Elizabeth restored to the line of succession as well at that time? And Edward passed them all over for Jane Grey when he was about to die? Or am I getting mixed up.
Probably because the king’s advisors didn’t like Frances’ husband, the Duke of Suffolk, or didn’t want him to become too powerful. Or something like that.
@Matt Eldridge No, I think you’re absolutely right. First, Edward only wanted Jane’s male heirs to inherit, but then he edited this letter to include her. It’s a fascinating document. Sounds like this hypothetical child could be a parallel to Laenor.
I was thinking the same thing! It took a bunch of weird circumstances to make Jane the nine-days-queen. If I recall correctly:
King Edward VI (Henry VIII's son) wanted a Protestant male heir. As the last male Tudor left, he needed one of his Protestant female relatives to have a son. His eldest sister (Bloody Mary) was Catholic. His next sister (Elizabeth I) was Protestant, but Edward couldn't justify Elizabeth's claim over Mary, so both sisters were excluded. Edward's cousin Frances Brandon had no sons and was unlikely to have more children. Edward's made Frances' firstborn daughter Jane Grey's future son heir. Jane Grey was quickly married to the son of the Duke of Northumberland (an advisor and regent of Edward). Jane had no children yet when Edward was on his deathbed, so he changed his Will from "Lady Jane's sons" to "Lady Jane and her sons".
@@PurpleAlogia The War of the Roses and the Tudor dynasty that followed is such an incredible collection of history. It is a joy to read about. I became familiar with Jane Grey after watching a BBC documentary about her short reign. Mary and Elizabeth gathered their own army after the country rallied to the side of Henry's children instead of the relatively unknown Jane Grey. While in some ways people tried to use Jane Grey as a tool she fully intended to be a queen in her own right by making her husband a King Consort instead of the full title of King. And when captured she took full responsibility for her decisions denying she was forced into any of them. She did this knowing the consequences were death but it was more important to ensure her agency as a person, as a queen, was what was remembered. And it is.
Aenys named Aegon the Uncrowned his heir. Also, Jaehaerys became king over his older brother's daughters, so there was a precedent for passing over females.
I specifically go over this in the video
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin omg! *The* Preston Jacobs replied to me! Keep over-analyzing and uploading superb ASOIAF videos!
Princess Rhaena never tries to gather support in the West to become Queen of Westeros over King Jaehaerys I. She went back to Fair Isle to find peace after the losses she endured during Maegor's reign.
Preston’s got that beautiful mind
In sad summary the Citadel & the Lords in Westeros want to retain their control. George does a phenomenal job in Fire & Blood. In Condal & Sapochnik I trust to fill in this outline!
I know this is literally an "overanalysis" but I will say that I actually don't think it's that crazy for Rhaenys to make the argument that her son should inherit. The reason being that if she was genuinely skipped on the basis that "you're female" then a male successor would be acceptable to those people who wanted one (which a hypothetical son would have been) and placated them. While at the same time Rhaenys herself is placated because it's still her line and her son that inherits. So it's, essentially, a compromise that would make both sides moderately satisfied. The people who wanted a male heir get a male heir and Rhaenys gets to have her line on the throne (and she would retain influence). So it kind of works in that way as a compromise between the two sides. Of course, that doesn't mean it wasn't desperate. She didn't know whether her child would be male, it wasn't even born yet and her being female probably was not the only reason why other people were opposing her (ie the Hightower plot) and so it was certainly unlikely that this compromise would have been accepted.
Very good, im intrigued
I think you are overthinking it. Why would Jaehaerys choose to Rhaenys if her children would be Valeryons? He wants Targaryens to continue to inherit the throne there for he goes with the next male child.
At this point, there's a targaryen blood in most Velaryons and Velaryon blood in most Targaryens. Aegon The Conqueror's mother was a Velaryon and Jaehaerys himself had a Velaryon mother (Alyssa Velaryon). The only difference this time would be the Targaryen being from the mother's side and Velaryon being the father's side.
these are way too short! I could listen to 2 hours at a time :D
I don't see the issue with Balon who is an adult man and experienced being chosen over a teenager like Raenys. Kings can choose their successors anyway.
True
It just kills me every time he starts saying "next time"
amazing vid
Preston do not under estimate the love of the smallfork..don't you remember how they hid Robert Baratheon in the riverlands while the King''s men searched for him
I wonder if being called a sea snake in a semi-northern european medieval setting isn't akin to being called a sea dragon?
Well...Prince Oberyn was the Red Viper. Would you dare think of him as a Red Dragon?
A snake is a snake, and a dragon is a dragon. I do not think they are interchangeable in this context
@@hopedixon2133 I don't think that's necessarily true. In scandinavian/proto german mythology snakes in the sea are huge, legendary monsters while land snakes are devious creepers. They had a tendency to call them all worms tho, geberally speaking. I guess it cones down to if westeroshi/crown land westeroshi are familiar with actual snakes living in salt water environtments. Corlis himself might be, but i doubt the average, even learned man would be?
@@a.k.summers5633 You are correct in stating that Planetos does like to mix around the terms of worm, snake, dragon, wyvern...it's very reminiscent of the mixing of crows and ravens. And I'm not gonna lie, the first time I read Corlys' nickname, I too thought sea dragon in a sense. But I think GRRM does this on purpose so we make those assumptions, and get misled in the process. He's such a punk sometimes lol.
I imagine GRRM links it to the German/Norse mythology as you did, and that sea snakes and land snakes are different as far as metaphors go. I mean, Prince Oberyn was definitely a sneaky snake if his brother Doran is telling the truth when he says that he (Doran) is the mild, safe grass hiding the bite of the Red Viper...but Doran is a lying liar who lies soooo who knows lol.
You could also turn it around and ask, does the snake as a devious nickname makes sense in the story? Are we supposed to think of Obyren? And if so, why and how?
I think sea snake as "sea dragon" makes a lot more sense. It's an affectionate nickname, used by people in the book to descripe his adventuriousness and power, not his deviousness or shadyness.
There's also the obvious reading where the Targs are the dragons of the air and the Velaryons are the dragons of the sea. A combination of air and sea power unseen in westeros before.
@@a.k.summers5633 I mean both of you, Charles the Bald was extremely hairy and went down in history as Charles the Bald. The grandson of Charlemagne. But Oberyn in particular since Dorne is admittedly based in Iberia, you should have a look at what the Portuguese monarchs went down as, from "The Useless" to "The Warrior King" to "The Philosopher" and "The wrathful". When it comes to animals you have the example of Carolus Rex being the Lion of Sweden and Sigurd Snake-in-the-eye.
The fun part of when this show starts for us who already know will be watching the fans divide into Blacks n Greens🖤🖤🖤🤣
Preaton, you ignored a very logical reason for Jahaerys to stop Rhaenys's succession. Her children, by name, are VELARYONS. Her marriage with Corlys was NOT matrilineal. If her line inherits, the Targaryens lose the Iron Throne, and the Velaryons become the top dog. This is something that Targs plotted vs other dragonlords during the doom of Valyria. Jahaerys would understand perfectly that should Rhaenys succeed, their house would at best become secondary.
Well, Rhaenys' child could've assumed the Targaryen name upon ascension to the throne after Rhaenys' death, like Harry the Heir will become an Arryn upon becoming lord of the Vale. Even in real history there have been cases of male descendants taking their mothers' name.
Queen Maria Theresa, who was a Habsburg, and her husband Holy Roman Emperor Francis I, who was from the House of Lorraine, gave their children a new family name which combined both of theirs into Habsburg-Lorraine (House of Habsburg-Lorraine also became the legit successor House to the Habsburg and Lorraine dynasties at the same time). Similar thing could've been done in case of Rhaenys' kids.
The Targaryen/Velaryon bloodline is already very intertwined at this point. Remember Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys were all half Velaryon. Even Jaehaerys was half Velaryon. As said earlier, any child could just take up the Targaryen name when it came time to rule. At this point in time Targaryens either marry their siblings or a Velaryon. Only Maegor looked outside of his 2 bloodlines.
Plus, that could also be sorted by betrothals into the Targaryen family. Laena could marry Viserys or Daemon and Laenor could marry Rhaenyra and she would become queen after Rhaenys, ensuring their children are Targaryen's proper.
17:03 fun fact! The woman in this painting isn't pregnant.
I didn’t realize maegor’s reign was that long
By saying well established practice he may have just been referring to succession in general, not just royal succession. The andal culture was heavily predisposed to only have male successors, Dorne is probably the only place in the 7 kingdoms where it wasn't a well established practice.
13:45 You can be so narrow minded sometimes it stings my eyes.
Back are we and
Was looking for this comment
Why are you not the lore master for GoTs for HBO? How have they not offered you that job, how are you not helping write or at least keep story's straight compared to the source.
I sure hope there isn't a test at the end of this series; otherwise, I'm screwed!
Gotta admit, after how HBO _colossally_ screwed up GOT's final seasons, I don't care. I won't be watching this. I'm done with HBO's take on ASOIAF.
Yet here you are.
Ok…jumping the gun a bit…do we think Baelon was given tears of Lys?
Wonderful!!
At 9:07, we see the first known appearane of Eminem Jacobs
I wonder if preston is gonna do anything about elden ring or dunk and egg
Where there's Fire, there's Blood, and there's PJ
Well, for all we know, it's the Royal succession that has no-women rule, not the lordly succession. We should take a look at andal kingdoms and their monarchs to figure out if Rhaenys indeed had a claim
The Arryns of the Vale are "of the purest noble Andal blood" and they are primarily ruled by men, even when they are kings. I only saw one Queen...only a Queen Regent however, Sharra Arryn, who was visited by me (Visenya), and I took both her and her young son's crowns, and brought the Vale of Arryn into the dragon's hands. Not the Andals.
The Gardeners had one Queen apparently, but just the one it seems, and they're First Men. So another no unfortunately...only Dorne.
do you think that GRRM wrote Fire and Blood from the perspective of a Maester so that any mistakes could be written off as the maesters opinion??
Hmm, Jon Arryn didn't die of a "wasting sickness" Pycelle tells Ned that the "illness" that took him was rather sudden. It may have taken him time to die once he got sick from his poisoning, but he went from being in very good health for his age to suddenly being bedridden.
You are right, I suppose I connected the wasting to the "wasting potions" he was getting. But, as you say, it was fairly fast and there's only so much weight one can lose in a few days.
I didn't realize the members of House Velaryon were of the same foreign extraction as Moqorro. I was under the impression they were mostly Valyrian.
That was the show runner's decision to depict them as dark skin. In the books they are Valyrian.
However, in universe this can be justified by Corwyn Velaryon (Corlys' father) marrying a Summer Islander or a person with the same colouring.
@@neyragrat That would throw quite the wrench into Preston's dragon genetics theory, if true.
Jahaerys was dripping with green for Old Town.
Why doe Rhaenys look so old???
@@blaubeer8039 she had her first born un 92??? When was Dance???
Jon said a daughter comes before an uncle. 🤔
Tell that to Euron Greyjoy
But that's after the great councils and Targs followed different rules on many things. Queen Victoria couldn't inherit Hannover in our world because of the salic law of Germany where she could inherit the British crown and that's two titles right next to eachother, westerosi and valyrian rules are probably further apart (you have to account for incest, polygamy and all combinations of both so how could normal westerosi succession even be implemented).
Lol at the quick recap of succession at about 40% through the video. Or, you could listen to about 64 hours of carmine and Preston discussing it together.
Another important point that should be made is that Valyrians are egalitarian when in comes to sucession. Or at least supposed to be. Yet the Old King cemented a precedent that is more sexist than the traditional Andal sucession. Maybe to prevent a dragon hatcher on the throne?
I hate to be that guy but as of 92 Jaehaerys hasn't had multiple *heirs apparent* it has just been Aemon. Everyone else before was *heir PRESUMPTIVE*, meaning they could (and in this case were) bumped down by future births, which *heirs apparent* can't be. Eg Bran was heir presumptive to Robb, not heir apparent, because Robb's potential children would replace him. Queen Elizabeth too was heir presumptive, not heir apparent, until er father's death, since it was possible (even if unlikely) for him to have a son who would replace her as heir, becoming heir apparent.
PLEASE read the whole thing before anyone comes at me. I see people get Male-preference Primogeniture wrong a lot (understandably, it's confusing). Under male preference the male line closest (descended) to the CURRENT king inherits over the female line. So Rhaenys would only be the rightful heir (if you can call a dictatorship rightful) if her father Aemon had been the king (he would have been the king and had no male line so then his daughters line would be next). Since he wasn't it follows through the male line, in this case Bealons. Now all that being said as Preston pointed out, there has never been a clear succession so we cant really say that the Targaryen's follow male-preference. It seems they just do whatever suits there fancy in the moment lol.
The casting for this show will never not be funny. Just give some africans white hair. Lol
Hey Preston. Quick question I hope you can respond to. This certainly is more of a subconscious element or a thought not said out loud but Jaehaerys basically usurped his older sister's position and potentially even abandoned his eldest brother when he faced off against Maegor in battle. After that he could have married his elder sister but chose the younger, pushing Rhaena out of official power. Do you think some part of him supports the male line of succession because that would validate his own thoughts and actions? I could see him having conscious concerns whether the kingdoms would accept her given the masculine view of what a leader should be, hence the rebellions against is father. It just seems he really has no sympathy at all for Rhaena and is polite for appearances sake. He no doubt believes he was the best person to lead the kingdoms and to restore Targaryen power. But if he has some buried regret about how he at best abandoned his Aegon and Rhaena and at worst betrayed them to obtain the crown, could naming Baelon provide some post justification to ignore any guilt? A "I do this because it is right and therefore was right when I claimed the crown ". Again I don't think that was his conscious reasoning but succession issues plague him throughout his life to the point where he gives up and passes the decision on to others. For someone who restored Targaryen power and wrote about their genetic superiority that just seems like an out of character decision without an underlying reason.
With regard to Jaehaerys not supporting Aegon the Uncrowned - Jaehaerys was really young at that point, and a hostage of Maegor. Can't really fault him for that.
As for Rhaena and Aerea... yeah there's definitely something there. If you say that Aegon the Uncrowned was the legitimate heir, then his daughter Aerea is the obvious successor, with his widow Rhaena as regent. If Maegor was legitimate, he named Aerea heir and his widow Rhaena is still a good candidate for regent. If you adopt Dornish succession laws, or say that Aerea is too young to sit on the throne, then Rhaena should rule. Jaehaerys is only king if being male matters more than anything else (and in practice Baratheon support is also important).
Regardless, would Jaehaerys really think people would doubt his legitimacy if he chose Rhaenys over Baelon? Rhaena and her children are long dead. Jaehaerys has pulled off a pretty successful propaganda coup - all the histories love him.
Your idea that its his subconscious guilt driving his decisions is really intriguing.
@@Mj_Jetson If I remember correctly they were held on Dragonstone by Visyna and they escaped on the night of her death, taking Dark Sister. Now their next appearance is after Aegons death in battle where Jaehaerys with the backing of his youngest sister, mother, and the full might of House Baratheon is declared King. Now Aegon had put out letters beseeching power houses for military support. They demand Aegon gain a victory for their support, which is where Jaehaerys and his remaining family now. Now how much Jaehaerys influenced the decision to wait, given his older siblings were at great risk, I don't think was confirmed. However given his commanding presence and that he is not far off from the day of complete power i do believe Baratheon and Jaehaerys discussed this at length. In the end let the dragons, throne claimants and their forces destroy each other. That is the simplest and safest way for your claim to have real wheight. Which is why you abandon Aegon to his fate. Or an even more manipulative tactic like if we don't keep the forces required here then you Jaehaerys, your sister and mother will meet a terrible death. All of course to build a relationship with Jaehaerys that will certainly making the Baratheons and the stormlands one of the preeminent families in Westeros
Timing-wise, Jaehaerys was actually unable to marry Rhaena. So, during the time of Jaehaery's early reign, he was a puppet of Rogar Baratheon. The Faith was super against incest marriages and married Rhaena to Andrew Farman. They had also sent up a marriage for Alysanne with Orryn Baratheon and Jaehaerys jumped in married her first.
@@Mj_Jetson i was not saying there is a direct one to ratio, not at all. I explained more of my practical thoughts in a response to another comment. What I meant to say is thing's go from bad to worse with Rhaena, who is a dragonrider. The circumstances at hand made Jaehaerys ascension the most likely to succeed and was therefore the right thing to do. Did he know this was stepping over Rhaena, after all she fought and suffered, absolutely. Now there is a succession issue between siblings that mirrors his past. In his mind he has to see himself as Baelon, even subconsciously. There really is some juicy stuff in this book for Jaehaerys and dealing with his family is a big part of that.
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin However a betrothal between Jaehaerys and Rhaena was perfectly feasible especially since she had already birthed the twins. It would easily link the two Targaryen claims into a united family because Jaehaerys and his group really screwed over Rhaena. I believe as a political alliance they were going to try and wed Rhaena and Orys. That's why she married the no account son of a minor lord who sheltered her. She wasn't helping Jaehaerys anymore faith was incredibly against children produced via incest but that High Septum mysteriously dies the night before Jaehaerys and Allisane show up in old town. The leaders of the remaining fanatics are killed. Jaehaerys arrives and gets quite a lot of personal time with Hightower. Targaryen exceptionalism allows for a different coupling/mating process that eventually wins the day.
this will probably be ignored as it is super late. But i always saw it as "you take my claim, and you would take my child's claim! Not prioritizing her kid but more like "me and then my children"
all this talk of choosing a successor why didn’t robert passover joffery if he was so scared for him to inherit the kingdom