The names of the two sides (the Blacks and the Greens) not coming up at the time is probably another "Wars of the Roses" reference - the term never comes up in contemporary records but was popularised by Sir Walter Scott (400 years later), though Shakespeare (written about a century after the events) does have a scene where nobles choose their side by plucking red or white roses. Always important to brand your wars!
The symbols of that conflict manage to endure into the present. Fun fact the animosity between English football clubs Leeds United and Manchester United does appropriate the war of the Roses symbolism. Leeds being a club that represents greater Yorkshire with pride wears an all white kit (was originally blue and yellow until Don Revvie borrowed the white kit idea from real mad.rid) and the club crest features the white rose of York. Manchester United who are a leading club of greater Lancashire have a mainly red kit and their club crest features/d the red rose of Lancaster
@@unstoppableExodia Oh no. York and Lancaster has that in common Michigan and Ohio. There's a football rivalry based on a war called the Toledo war. Northerners claim wolverines as a symbol of being fierce fighters (even though they lost) while Ohioans claim it's a symbol of their gluttony for land. Ohio's sigil is an inedible nut. I'm so mad.
Well, if Alicent usually wore the colors of her husband's house but wore green in this instance it would seem to be some sort of political statement. As far as I know, in this society, the wife usually displays the colors of her husband's house.
The best way I can describe the Rhaenyra/Alicent rivalry is honestly by pointing out how much of a victim Rhaenyra is in all of this: An eight year old girl watches helplessly as her mother and day-old baby brother die within the span of twenty-four hours. She then watches her dad become an alcoholic and get into a fight with her cool uncle that rides a motorcycle, resulting in her cool uncle being kicked out of the house. Within a year, her mom gets replaced by a girl who was old enough to reasonably be her older sister and soon after, she has multiple step-siblings that she thinks are going to get the family estate when their dad dies. I can't imagine why this little girl would hate her stepmother so much when you factor all of these issues in.
and then when she turns 12 her new step-mother starts insistently calling her a whore in private and spreading rumors about her supposed sex life with her assigned guard.
1. Rhaenyra definitely had supporters at court: "When the second of her brothers died soon after being born, Viserys himself began to treat Rhaenyra as his heir, keeping her by his side in court and at council meetings. Many of the nobles of the realm took note, so the young princess was surrounded by flatterers and favor-seekers all through her childhood." - So Spake Martin
yeah but there is a diffrence between people flattering and seeking favor from a 12 year old, and that 12 year old being the mastermind behind assembling a faction of lords to her political positions
What do you think would have happened if Viserys proclaimed publically "I henceforth declare that I consider what the Council of 101 did and implied a mere recommendation. I henceforth have concluded that it is much simpler for the realm that absolute primogeniture as in Dorne is best for my realm and shall be the law for inheritance to the Iron Throne, though this ruling does not change the inheritance laws and traditions of each Kingdom I rule".
@@fakenodj this. even after dorne finally joins the realm they're viewed with distrust, so to say "i wanna do what they do in dorne :)" is only going to piss a lot of lords off.
at timestamp 4:19... Why is it only half the lords are sworn to Rhaenyra? Hasn't it only been just a few years since she was named heir? Are they saying that only half the lords showed up to see her named heir? Or in this time of mostly-peace, a ton of lords died in the past 5 years? It reminds me of a quote from much later, at the Green Council: Ser Tyland pointed out that many of the lords who had sworn to defend the succession of Princess Rhaenyra were long dead. “It has been twenty-four years,” he said. “I myself swore no such oath. I was a child at the time.” ...so, is this another point where Gyldayn is fudging the timeline a little?
@@Dragonshade64 This is absolutely bizarre. Whether by omission or deliberate defiance this was sedition. Are we supposed to believe that Viserys was cool with it? Or was he very ill, like in the show, and didn't really know what was happening!
@@alanpennie8013 A missing plague, an organized campaign of assassination by the Greens or a greater involvement in the war of the stepstones that was conveniently left out by a biased historian could all explain why so many lords could have died within the span of a quarter century. That the Maester writing the history may have never left oldtown or felt safe in the knowledge that his lord was illiterate could keep the king from calling him up on sedition charges. It's not like there's an impartial body who has to check his work or anything.
Yeah when he first read the line that seemed seemed metaphorical to me, the targs on both sides having petty conflicts and arguing. It did not occur to me it may be literal until Preston interpreted it that way.
Alicent being a bully does remind us of Saera (who used to bully Daella). Saera did spent about a year MIA after running away from the motherhouse in Oldtown. And it was the Hightowers who lead the search party for Saera during that year. Just sayin’
About the green dress... I believe F&B does mention that the green beacon is a signal for war in Oldtown, but it does so wayyy earlier in the context of Maegor's reign. So... do we think GRRM intended the green thing to be a provocation, as it was in the show? Would be an especially weird choice on his part, especially since I think "the Rogue Prince" and "The Princess and the Queen" were published long before that section about Maegor. Maybe he called them Blacks and Greens, then later retconned some extra significance for the color green?
I think it was just a a show addition and that it never crossed GRRM's mind. Plus, why would Alicent be declaring war at that moment? Rhaenyra hasn't done anything. In the show, she had a clear reason.
Exactly! Like what other uncles does she have at this point? Alyssa's son who died way before Rhaenyra was even a glint in her father's eye, her great-uncle Vaegon at the Citadel who she's never even met, and her uncle-by-marriage Corlys Velaryon (he's technically the husband of her cousin once removed, but let's be generous here). But yeah, Daemon is her absolute favorite. She can't contain her excitement at him being back from the war he left to fight in 106AC, when she was all of 9 years of age. Like why are even discussing this? Rhaenyra at the party where she dressed "dramatically" in red and black is the *very picture* of a woman waiting for her lover to come back home from the war. And there he lands, all dressed in gold and silver, leaping from his dragon right into her eager arms. Lol, jk. It's clearly an attempt by the Masters to bring "evidence" that there was some pre-existing affinity between Rhaenyra and Daemon, and meant to give some extra credibility to rumors that they eventually started banging.
10:32 I think the "dragons" might refer to Targaryens and not actual dragons, as in Targaryens of one party spitting "flame" (hatred, insults, etc.) at Targaryens of the other party.
Does that fit with needing to be "sharp-eyed" to notice? Also, this isn't Mean Girls where lords and ladies would always travel together and occasionally pass each other in the halls. Its court. Dozens of people would be fluid, constantly interacting is all sorts of different ways. It just doesn't fit.
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin Maybe their gestures of hatred were subtle and those "sharp-eyed" could see the truth beneath it. Though, maybe it really wasn't that subtle, but enough to at least fool Viserys into thinking they were not feuding.
@@iliaponomarev1624 Not really. As Preston pointed out, although he was talking about actual dragons, there seems to be a misplacement of events in the timeline by Gyldayn.
@@iliaponomarev1624 Or it could be that the "dragons" are the Targaryen SUPPORTERS of each party. Kinda like how Stark armies are called "wolves" and Lannister armies are called "lions".
18:33 I got the feeling it was some how related to the black and green glass candles at the Citadel. Not sure how but after reading house of the Dragon and then rereading the book series that is what caught my eye and made me think of Black's and Greens when they talk about the three glass candles in the Citadel being black or green
I think another point that is worth noting that is that as far as we can tell based on the actual events removed from the various writers bias, the idea that there is an upswelling of anti-Rhanaerya sentiment isn’t born out. At the end of the day, the Greens only attract the support of the Hightowers, Lannisters, the Baratheons and their assorted lackeys. And the Baratheons only enter the war once they are in a position to seize power, after the Lannisters and Hightowers have effectively been knocked out of the war, which doesn’t imply a deep commitment in my view. In contrast, the blacks are supported by the Starks, Tullys, Arryns and Greyjoys as well as many of the major houses in the Reach and the Crownlands and of course House Velaryon. Notably, of these only the Greyjoys need serious prompting and only the Velaryons have familial ties to Rhanaerya. By all appearances, the majority of Westeros is not nearly as troubled by a ruling queen or Daemon as king as the histories try to make out. The greens in this light are very much a court based conspiracy with limited support elsewhere. And to be honest I’m not sure how surprising this is. The greens have been the dominant faction politically for nearly a generation by 129 and there are probably many lords who for one reason or another they have antagonised. It could well be that for many, the thought of Daemon making Otto Hightower quake in his boots was a massive plus, not a negative.
It should be noted that the Starks effectively needed to be bribed to join the war with a future marriage proposal, and the Tullys needed to be threatened by a dragon to align with a side and thus had to commit lest their House get decimated by the Greens. As for the Arryns? Their head was a woman who empathized with Rhaenyra's plight so aligned with her. So basically only the Arryns was actually loyal to the Blacks. And even then Lady Jeyne Arryn hated Daemon's guts and didn't wish to support him, so Daemon almost lost Rhaenyra a Great House.
Thomas Goodwin Great post. The Hightowers have always been very powerful because of their association with the maesters and The Faith. During the reign of Viserys they made their power too visible and accordingly attracted great hostility. It was a mistake they would be careful not to make again.
I'd argue that the change from Otto to Lyonel isn't so much meaningless, and more strategically irrelevant; you could say that Viserys didn't want to overtly upset the Hightower faction, but also wanted to reduce the things causing him personal strife and stress. "Shut the fuck up", but as a heavy-handed order from the Crown. show!Viserys, at least is a man broken by the life-long wear and tear of stress physically manifest on his body, let alone mind; so maybe that's what conjures that idea in particular to me.
Pretty sure the "Dragon's snapping" is supposed to be a metaphor about the party members, not literally about their dragons. Rhaenyra may not have had "supporters" like Alicent, but there were surely people loyal to the king who were not fond of Alicen'ts party seemingly acting against his wishes.
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin yes, if you didn't notice that the greens were subtly acting against rhaenyra you probably wouldn't notice the people who disliked and sought to undermine them. In the same way some can be involved and some oblivious to office politics.
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin I believe it does. The factions under the false social decorum would probably use subtle cutting remarks or small rude actions.
> the Queen wore a green gown, whilst the Princess dressed dramatically in Targaryen red and black Should really be: "The Princcess dressed appropriately in Targaryen red and black, whilst the Queen dramatically wore green, the colour of the Hightower flame when Oldtown calls its banners".
I see Preston is bringing back this series with some truly spicy takes... Didn't expect that, but I like this series a lot. Not necessarily because I agree with most of it, but I do find it very intriguing. It gives one something to chew on throughout the fandom hiatus.
@@aleksandarnikolov3182 could it be because more people will search for the show than book? For more views? Original post has been edited anyway and my answer doesn't make any sense anymore lol
Interesting usage of "hector" as harass, irritate, etc. when it is directly etymologically related to Greek mythology. What, pray, is the origin of the Westerosi usage of "hector"?
I assumed that "the dragons snapping and spitting fire at each other" was metaphorical. The "dragons" meant Targaryens and their supporters, not their literal dragons. I could be wrong though
The Hightowers totally magicked the favor that Lynesse gave to Jorah. That's why he was never able to recreate the "magic" (his word) in subsequent tourneys
A friendly reminder that Viserys was a shit king who made shit decisions, and naming Rhaenyra as his heir was one of the worst decisions made by any king Westeros has ever known.
I believe Aegon the 4th made the worst decision by legitimizing his bastards. That decision made a ripple affect that is still affecting the realm in the main story
I took the line ‘snapping dragons’ as meaning that the children were snapping at each other. With the benefit of the show, we can see the seeds of the children’s (dragons) growing hatred and disdain for one another. Just my two cents.
(analysis 2/3) Reading on: "Here is where our sources diverge." a.k.a. "Bullshit ahoy!". as in "We don't know what actually happened, but this won't stop us from laying it on thick." First, we get a sensible accounting, from an actual Maester (i.e. the person *officially in charge* of keeping records). "Grand Maester Runciter says only that the brothers quarreled again, and Prince Daemon departed King’s Landing to return to the Stepstones and his wars. Of the cause of the quarrel, he does not speak. Others assert that it was at Queen Alicent’s urging that Viserys sent Daemon away." Viserys and Daemon fought, Daemon was sent away and fucked off back to the Stepstones, because, I conjecture, all the spears and arrows the Triarchy could muster were infinitely preferable to sharing a roof with Rhea Royce. That part with "others assert ..." is about as trustworthy as a Myrish mountebank. Who exactly would these "others" be? The blacks at court who have thus far remained anonymous? Daemon and Viserys seemed to fight as a hobby, so I don't think they needed any help from Alicent to start another quarrel. Meanwhile, the other two sources point to an altogether different cause: Rhaenyra. Eustace and Mushroom both have tea to spill, and, as luck would have it, one offers Earl Grey, while the other servers up full on English Breakfast. So whether you're a moderate reader looking for some plausible explanation, or a complete lecher looking for salacious details, Maester Gyldain has you covered. Eustace just says Rhaenyra and Daemon slept together, were caught by Arryk Cargyll of the Kingsguard and "brought before the king", where Rhaenyra asked to marry Daemon, but Viserys refused because Daemon was already married. Viserys grounded Rhaenyra (likely so she wouldn't take off with Daemon), exiled Daemon and, importantly, *commanded both of them never to speak of what had happened.* But then ... who blabbed? Ser Arryk is sworn to silence, Daemon and Rhaenyra are told to stfu. There's no indication anyone else was there. Given that Viserys wanted to keep it on the DL, he wasn't bloody likely to invite spectators. So how did this story make it to Septon Eustace? Through confession? But then shouldn't the good Septon keep it to himself? At the end of the day, Eustace's story boils down to: Rumpy-pumpy => Rhaenyra requests marriage to Daemon => Refusal because Daemon is wed => Quarrel Now, let's consider Mushroom's story, which you will have already read 100 times and which, for that reason, I won't repeat in full on here. Basically, other than it being complete filth which would have made Caligula blush, the only thing of note is that that, whatever they might have done in this story, Daemon went about it in secret: "flew with her on dragonback to lonely rocks in Blackwater Bay, where they could disport naked all day unobserved", "smuggle her from her rooms dressed as a page boy and take her secretly to brothels on the Street of Silk". If they were unobserved in Blackwater Bay, then who the everlasting fuck would even know what they were doing? People just saw them flying off and coming back. They could have been doing rolly pollies or playing checkers. Rhaenyra is never said to participate in activities on the Street of Silk, only to observe. How would people even know it's her and how would this carry on for any length of time? In the series, they're basically caught on the first outing. And the involvement of Cole in this whole sorry tale doesn't make any sense either, because Rhaenyra's betrothal to Laenor, and her allegedly offering herself to Criston on the night of her betrothal, was said to have happened "long before any man had reason to doubt her innocence". It's said "the whole tale soon came out" - who did it come out to, exactly? Clearly, it wasn't public, otherwise there wouldn't be 3 different versions of it. We'd have one version, as we do for the whole scandal with Saera. So it seems that, according to Mushroom's tale, Mushroom just went blabbing to Viserys and "Prince Daemon confirmed the tale was true", again according to Mushroom. So this is *Mushroom telling us that Daemon told Viserys that what Mushroom told Viserys is true*. So, basically, it's mushrooms all the way down! Also, we have it from Mushroom that "Lord Strong, the King’s Hand, argued that the prince should be put to death immediately as a traitor, but Septon Eustace reminded His Grace that no man is as accursed as the kinslayer." However, Septon Eustace makes no mention of this in his story. Perhaps he toned it down for the pearl-clutching brigade? Then why mention it at all? At the end of the day, Mushroom's story boils down to: Hanky-Panky => Daemon requests marriage to Rhaenyra => Refusal because Daemon is wed => Quarrel So, considering these two tellings, let’s just take out the guff and see what we’ve got. Daemon-Rhaenyra action => Marriage request => Refusal because Daemon is wed => Quarrel There are some questions: How much action took place? Who requested the marriage? To answer, let's consider one more aspect. In 112 AC, concurrently with the whole Daemon situation, Rhaenyra was being heavily courted, and the matter was decided by Viserys and the council: "The best choice, king and small council finally agreed, would be Rhaenyra’s cousin Laenor Velaryon." This was against Rhaenyra's wishes: "King and council had neglected to consult the princess, however, and Rhaenyra proved to be very much her father’s daughter, with her own notions about whom she wished to wed." So what were Rhaenyra's notions about who to wed? - There's Cole, who's Kingsguard. Rhaenyra can't be serious about eloping with him and hoping she'd still get the throne. - There's Harwin, who was her lover later. However, there's no notion Rhaenyra ever asked to wed him and she only gets with him later. - And finally, there's the obvious candidate: Daemon. Both Eustace and Mushroom mention requests for a Daemon-Rhaenyra wedding, that got shot down by Viserys because Daemon was already married. Rhaenyra seemed to enjoy his company, so it's likely he was either her first choice, or she was not opposed to it. Daemon had previously asked Viserys to set his own marriage aside, which indicates that there was just cause to set the marriage aside: it was probably not consummated, as we see in the show. Viserys was using the marriage that he himself refused to set aside as an excuse to deny Rhaenyra to Daemon. Daemon is pissed off, and rightfully so, in my opinion. Half of the pox-ridden lords of the realm, grey beards and green boys, are allowed to court Rhaenyra, but he, the Targaryen prince, the dragon rider, the war hero with the blood of old Valyria coursing through his veins, isn't allowed to shoot his shot. That's gotta hurt! Instead, Viserys wanted to marry her to Laenor, a gay man, only to appease Corlys Velaryon. At this stage, the Velaryons have 3 dragons, while the Targaryens have only 2, so that might have had something to do with his decision. The council also likely opposed any marriage of Daemon to Rhaenyra to keep him as far away from power as possible. So what did actually happen, in the book, between Rhaenyra and Daemon? 1. Daemon returned to King's Landing and joined the court. 2. In that capacity, he got to spend time with Rhaenyra. 3. Eventually, Daemon started courting Rhaenyra, as every other eligible lord was doing, except, being Daemon, he excelled at it. How far did the physical relationship get? It's really immaterial, but there was no real reason for them to be sleeping together, given that Daemon's getting his needs met on the Street of Silk, and Rhaenyra has no reason to jeopardize her position. 4. After spending some quality time courting Rhaenyra, Daemon concluded that marrying her would be a smashing idea, and she likely agreed. She does marry him later, so she's clearly into him. 5. Daemon, possibly accompanied by Rhaenyra, went to Viserys with the marriage proposal, but it was shot down. Daemon's marriage to Rhea was put forth as the reason, but this was most likely an excuse and the real reason was that Viserys had already agreed to wed Rhaenyra to Laenor, without consulting her. 6. Rhaenyra seemingly has to choose between the throne and marrying who she wants (Daemon). She picks the Throne. 7. All hell breaks loose and, enraged at both his brother and niece, feeling once again rejected by his family, Daemon leaves for the Stepstones. This also explains Daemon and Rhaenyra's later relationship. You see, later in the story, Rhaenyra married Laenor and moved to Dragonstone, while Daemon was with Laena on Driftmark. Their families saw each other constantly and spent a lot of time together. However, none of Rhaenyra's oldest sons are fathered by Daemon, even though there was plenty of opportunity for that to happen, and it would have prevented a lot of discussion about their legitimacy. So why didn't this happen? Well, with this version of the events, Daemon found himself rejected by Rhaenyra. Either he got over Rhaenyra and found love with Laena (most likely, given the book) or was still pining for Rhaenyra, but was still upset she didn't choose him (this is the version we get in the show). In the books, it's not clear who fathered Rhaenyra's children, despite their brown hair, because genes they might have inherited from their Baratheon and Arryn ancestors. So either Rhaenyra is faithful to Laenor, or is happy enough with Harwin to not go chasing after her uncle. It's definitely clear though that Rhaenyra and Daemon's "fatal attraction" is a show-only concoction. Otherwise, they would have never been able to keep off each other for 10 whole years, and we'd have seen some silver-haired babies. So there's my best guess of Rhaenyra's relationship with Daemon, as can be ascertained from the testimonies of the three blind mice.
nah it was always named overanalyzing hotd, but preston and carmine had podcast episodes analyzing fire and blood when it came out, so they were titled things like Fire and Blood-Heirs of the Dragon Podcast Ep Etc. maybe that’s what you’re thinking of
I mean, very clearly not as the dragons’ behavior is observed by sharp-eyed people and the dragons are described as passing each other by chance, but I appreciate the benefit of the doubt that you allow George. :)
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin I don't see how being observed by sharp-eyed observers or passing eachother by chance makes this more literal? In fact, it doesn't make sense literally. You don't need to be keen-eyed to notice dragons spitting fire on eachother, most people would notice a flamthrower going off. To me it seem like a pretty clear metaphor for the factions appearing cordial to eachother but observant people would notice the underhanded comments and the like when they passed eachother. It is likely written in such a weird poetic way for 3 reasons: GrrM loves weird poetic prose, the maester want to make Alicents side appear as Targaryens instead of what they actually were, Hightowers and their cronies, and lastly because actually describing the kind of off-handed shade throwing would make it clear that Rhaenyra (a child) didn't participate and the feud was one-sided.
@@jonttopia Oh my lord, this is just ridiculous. Dragons are big, powerful creatures. Lickspittles aren't dragons. GRRM would never make that metaphor, ever.
The only sense I see to the naming of the Blacks and Greens would be a sort of symbolism of the Black brothers of the Night's Watch, founded by the First Men, against the Greenseers of the Children of the Forest. Just a guess 🤷🏾♂️
(analysis 3/3) Look for parts 1 and 2 somewhere in this comment section. TH-cam limits comments to 10,000 characters, so I had to chop this thing up. To recap, this is what I think happened in 111AC, after the first round of fighting in the Stepstones: 1. Daemon returned to King's Landing and joined the court. 2. In that capacity, he got to spend time with Rhaenyra. 3. Eventually, Daemon started courting Rhaenyra, as every other eligible lord was doing, except, being Daemon, he excelled at it. How far did the physical relationship get? It's really immaterial, but there was no real reason for them to be sleeping together, given that Daemon's getting his needs met on the Street of Silk, and Rhaenyra has no reason to jeopardize her position. 4. After spending some quality time courting Rhaenyra, Daemon concluded that marrying her would be a smashing idea, and she likely agreed. She does marry him later, so she's clearly into him. 5. Daemon, possibly accompanied by Rhaenyra, went to Viserys with the marriage proposal, but it was shot down. Daemon's marriage to Rhea was put forth as the reason, but this was most likely an excuse and the real reason was that Viserys had already agreed to wed Rhaenyra to Laenor, without consulting her. 6. Rhaenyra seemingly has to choose between the throne and marrying who she wants (Daemon). She picks the Throne. 7. All hell breaks loose and, enraged at both his brother and niece, feeling once again rejected by his family, Daemon leaves for the Stepstones. It is, more or less, what happened in the show with Rhaenyra's courtship. She made out with Daemon, but they didn't sleep together. Rhaenyra could have refused Laenor and ran away with Daemon when he came back from the Vale, the night of the feast, but chose to stay, do her duty and inherit the Throne. Viserys could have wed Daemon to Rhaenyra, but chose not to do it, because he wanted to keep Daemon away from the throne and he wanted to patch things up with Corlys. In the show, the Cole affair serves to sour things with Alicent. In the books, there's no reason for it because Alicent can't stand Rhaenyra and is already determined to take the throne. Book Cole stops being Rhaenyra's sworn protector because he becomes Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. He later turns on her when she starts sleeping around with Harwin. It's possible he loved her and wanted to run away with her, but was turned down. At any rate, I'm probably wrong about half of this, and we'll hear what Preston has to stay in his next video.
Can we talk about how "the Blacks and the Greens" is no different than two people in the same family wearing different jerseys during Sunday Night Football? Two people who are lifetime fans of, say, the Jaguars and the Packers (literally the Blacks and the Greens) just happen to wear their favorite team's colors because that's what they've done their entire lives? Unless Rhaenyra rolls up into Philly wearing a Penguins dress, she's not going to get actual hate for wearing her family's colors at her family dinner. It's so ridiculous lol
Wouldn’t Sunfyre and Syrax have been in the dragonpit in the years Rhaenyra was in the red keep after Aegons birth. Maybe they hissed fire at eachother
One way you should try to make It clear you talking about the books is by not using images from the show. That can be a little confusing especially how diferent the show is
While I agree that in modern terms Rhaenyra is a child and Alicent is an adult we need to take into account context. In medieval society, which is what this is just fantasy medieval society, once you were old enough to conceive children you were considered an adult. So Rhaenyra being 12 or 13 in these times she was an adult by the standards of the time. So The argument that Alicent is feuding with a child doesn't hold water because she wasn't by those times standards. 12 and 13 year old boys were regularly going off to war so it is not unreasonable to assume that Rhaenyra was sleeping with Cole. Hell In the Books Robb was like 14 years old and leading a rebellion so people grew up a lot faster. Rhaenyra wasn't a child.
You'd be surprised to see how often these medieval structures often lead to older upstarts in the royal court usurping the royal baby. In fact; it's kinda a hallmark.
It seems reasonable to assume that the so - called Blacks or Princess' Party were a reversionary interest who for one reason or another were at odds with The Hightowers and hoped to take power in the name of Rhaenyra if Viserys should die. Gyldayn misunderstanding this can be ascribed to hindsight bias since Rhaenyra did take a leadership role many years later. Unreliable narrators are amazingly convenient for excusing author error.
Well, that's a show invention (the connection between the dress and flame), but in F&B, it wouldn't really make sense. Why would Alicent be declaring war at that moment? What has Rhaenyra done? In the show, Rhaenyra lied to her best friend, betraying her trust. In F&B, Rhaenyra...did nothing.
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin rhaenyra flowers/becomes a women she's wearing a dress. girls unflowered girls wear skirts not dresses.(even in 18th-19th century american young girls would wear skirts and as they get older their skirts become longer longer as dresses) rhaenyra wearing that dress is symbolizing adulthood and ferity, lords not sworn could use that as cover to not swear to her and they could say her mother had difficulty with childbirth she might not even be able ferity be able to flower, have kids. 2. i cant remember in the first book if anya wore skirts as a young girl and even tho sansa as a unflowered girl did wear dresses she was expected to soon flower. 2.5 but in the books girls who act tomboyish wear shirts (or with/pants under them )not dresses her wearing. goes on to point 3. 3. her wearing a dress at the dinner is symbol she's now an adult and can have kids she's taking/distancing alicents kids spot at the throne . 4. relooking at the little sentence i dont think it says rhaenyra is wearing a dress unless its 1 of those unsaid things. 5. most girls flower at 12-13 so rhaenyra flowers at the dinner/feast. 6. maybe alicents brother(cousins) asked for her hand but being beaten by her sworn sword. no way. 7. if rhaenyra wore a skirt at the dinner she could hade/been saying im still immature and i dont want the throne. 8. also alicent could just take rhaenrya wearing a dress as a declaration of war.
9. the dinner could be og a 5th wedding anniversery and all/alot the lords are coming to it but right before rhaenrya flowers at age 12-13 and all the congratulations are going to her for becoming a women/flowering.
I feel like your analysis in this episode, while thorough, is exploring things from an especially critical lense on the part of the author. GRRM very obviously intended for Rhaenyra and Alicent to be feuding/rivals at this point, and while the playing field obviously isn’t equal, going as far as to suggest that it’s just one sided attacks is kinda silly. I think GRRM allowing for the age up in HOTD was to correct for an error he made in his narrative- that being the massive age difference between Rhaenyra and Alicent completely screwing up the dynamic.
Sounds very show watcher, unless you’ve read all the books your perspective will always differ and will most likely side with how things are depicted in the show versus the actual literature. GRRM isn’t fixing anything in the show, he more or less says yes it no to whatever the showrunners decide to do. He’s not heavily influencing anything he just makes sure they don’t completely change his work by changing the narrative completely or it’s ending. Other than that, they have carte Blanche to do as they please. And although they lie and say they’re unbiased the show runners heavily favor the Green Party. Just as D &D favored the Lannisters in GOT though they claimed unbiased yet they murder the main character in the last episode for no illogical reason.
@@clownpendotfart that’s not my point. The show maintains all of the various accusations against Rhaenyra and the rivalry that builds between her and Alicent as depicted in the books, but at appropriate ages. The entire point of the show is that it’s a more accurate telling of what happened. While George can’t retcon the ages of characters, he can allow for a more popular but consistent and logical interpretation of his narrative to be put to screen.
@@elliottwilliams9221 I’ve read fire and blood twice, find a better way to dismiss my opinion. Acting like GRRM’s influence is merely advisory when the script and dialogue are very, *very* heavily influenced by his style- filled with Georgisms and the like- is silly. Also, really? You think the show runners are greens? They go out of their way to make Alicent more sympathetic, sure, but that’s because she was a cartoon villain in the books. I mean christ, they made again commit SA and showed one of his terrified victims on screen. Otto acts like a Latin American dictator purging the former government, and Aemond up until Luke’s death acts like an unrepentant psychopath. Just because they’re trying to add nuance to the story it doesn’t mean they’re anti-Rhaenyra.
I dont at all think the book age difference between Rhaenyra and Alicent is an error. Neve thought that at all while reading the books. Why do you think its an error in the books? That point isn't entirely clear in your comment.
@@mschell8022 I mean that the narrative George seems to be crafting, both in previous source material and in HOTD, is of a feud between Alicent and Rhaenyra, not one sided bullying.
Archmaester Gildayne is so biased 😂😂 it’s ridiculous, I tend to believe the fool’s accounts over his. One favors the greens the other the blacks and then the other maester adds more context to both. But most certainly the Hightower’s are the original Lannisters, wealth power influence and taking out Targaryens and noble houses to stay on top. And the Baratheons help along the way all the way until Stannis. Blackfyres too but with different motivations.
Why would you skip part 2 of your HotD season review to go back to analyzing the text? If the goal is to separate book and show, wouldn't it make sense to finish your show review first?
The names of the two sides (the Blacks and the Greens) not coming up at the time is probably another "Wars of the Roses" reference - the term never comes up in contemporary records but was popularised by Sir Walter Scott (400 years later), though Shakespeare (written about a century after the events) does have a scene where nobles choose their side by plucking red or white roses. Always important to brand your wars!
I'm definitely on board with that.
The symbols of that conflict manage to endure into the present.
Fun fact the animosity between English football clubs Leeds United and Manchester United does appropriate the war of the Roses symbolism. Leeds being a club that represents greater Yorkshire with pride wears an all white kit (was originally blue and yellow until Don Revvie borrowed the white kit idea from real mad.rid) and the club crest features the white rose of York. Manchester United who are a leading club of greater Lancashire have a mainly red kit and their club crest features/d the red rose of Lancaster
@@unstoppableExodia Oh no. York and Lancaster has that in common Michigan and Ohio. There's a football rivalry based on a war called the Toledo war. Northerners claim wolverines as a symbol of being fierce fighters (even though they lost) while Ohioans claim it's a symbol of their gluttony for land. Ohio's sigil is an inedible nut. I'm so mad.
Or a Byzantine Greens and Blues reference (a long shot, though, no sport connection)
Well, if Alicent usually wore the colors of her husband's house but wore green in this instance it would seem to be some sort of political statement. As far as I know, in this society, the wife usually displays the colors of her husband's house.
And we are back
*FOR A THOUSAND YEARS, HE LAY DORMANT-*
The best way I can describe the Rhaenyra/Alicent rivalry is honestly by pointing out how much of a victim Rhaenyra is in all of this:
An eight year old girl watches helplessly as her mother and day-old baby brother die within the span of twenty-four hours. She then watches her dad become an alcoholic and get into a fight with her cool uncle that rides a motorcycle, resulting in her cool uncle being kicked out of the house. Within a year, her mom gets replaced by a girl who was old enough to reasonably be her older sister and soon after, she has multiple step-siblings that she thinks are going to get the family estate when their dad dies.
I can't imagine why this little girl would hate her stepmother so much when you factor all of these issues in.
and then when she turns 12 her new step-mother starts insistently calling her a whore in private and spreading rumors about her supposed sex life with her assigned guard.
Her dad didn't become an alcoholic. He spent so much so time into Lego sets and got diabites.
@@senmafugu show vs book
@@chrisrubin6445 yeah in the book he super fat.
I love that description of Daemon and Caraxes!!! 🤣
...yeah, cool uncle with a motorcycle is a fitting way to describe Daemon.
1. Rhaenyra definitely had supporters at court:
"When the second of her brothers died soon after being born, Viserys himself began to treat Rhaenyra as his heir, keeping her by his side in court and at council meetings. Many of the nobles of the realm took note, so the young princess was surrounded by flatterers and favor-seekers all through her childhood." - So Spake Martin
yeah but there is a diffrence between people flattering and seeking favor from a 12 year old, and that 12 year old being the mastermind behind assembling a faction of lords to her political positions
@@chrisrubin6445 likely a faction began forming around her. Maybe not a cohesive faction just individuals acting to gain her favor
The Champ always has lots of friends.
The ex champ, not so much
what's the source of that quote?
Yes! I LOVE these. The live streams are ok but these scripted pieces are really where it’s at!
It's been too long. As fun as the streams and podcasts are, THIS is what I subscribed for.
Damn I never realized Rhaenyra was THAT young when the rumors started
The snapping dragons might be a metaphor for the supporters of each faction having short tempers with each other in public.
What do you think would have happened if Viserys proclaimed publically "I henceforth declare that I consider what the Council of 101 did and implied a mere recommendation. I henceforth have concluded that it is much simpler for the realm that absolute primogeniture as in Dorne is best for my realm and shall be the law for inheritance to the Iron Throne, though this ruling does not change the inheritance laws and traditions of each Kingdom I rule".
Ooh, great question!
Otto Hightower would cut off his own manhood and find some goat to feed it to.
@@fakenodj if only we had huge winged fire breathing lizards that make rebellious lords a non issue
@@chrisrubin6445 i think one of the points of the targs is that dragons are great for conquering, not so much for actually ruling.
@@fakenodj this. even after dorne finally joins the realm they're viewed with distrust, so to say "i wanna do what they do in dorne :)" is only going to piss a lot of lords off.
at timestamp 4:19... Why is it only half the lords are sworn to Rhaenyra? Hasn't it only been just a few years since she was named heir? Are they saying that only half the lords showed up to see her named heir? Or in this time of mostly-peace, a ton of lords died in the past 5 years? It reminds me of a quote from much later, at the Green Council:
Ser Tyland pointed out that many of the lords who had sworn to defend the succession of Princess Rhaenyra were long dead. “It has been twenty-four years,” he said. “I myself swore no such oath. I was a child at the time.”
...so, is this another point where Gyldayn is fudging the timeline a little?
Or some event that he conveniently forgot to mention.
@@Dragonshade64
This is absolutely bizarre.
Whether by omission or deliberate defiance this was sedition.
Are we supposed to believe that Viserys was cool with it?
Or was he very ill, like in the show, and didn't really know what was happening!
@@alanpennie8013 A missing plague, an organized campaign of assassination by the Greens or a greater involvement in the war of the stepstones that was conveniently left out by a biased historian could all explain why so many lords could have died within the span of a quarter century. That the Maester writing the history may have never left oldtown or felt safe in the knowledge that his lord was illiterate could keep the king from calling him up on sedition charges. It's not like there's an impartial body who has to check his work or anything.
The dragons snapping line was symbolic, not actual dragons, just the ladies supporting either of them. That's the best interpretation I've got.
Yeah when he first read the line that seemed seemed metaphorical to me, the targs on both sides having petty conflicts and arguing. It did not occur to me it may be literal until Preston interpreted it that way.
Does that meanTyrion amidst snarling dragons ist Tyrion amidst fighting Tagaryens?
Alicent being a bully does remind us of Saera (who used to bully Daella).
Saera did spent about a year MIA after running away from the motherhouse in Oldtown. And it was the Hightowers who lead the search party for Saera during that year.
Just sayin’
And on top of that, Rhaenyra is Daella's granddaughter.
And here I was afraid you’d dropped this series! Glad to see you’re keeping it going after the season finished.
About the green dress... I believe F&B does mention that the green beacon is a signal for war in Oldtown, but it does so wayyy earlier in the context of Maegor's reign. So... do we think GRRM intended the green thing to be a provocation, as it was in the show? Would be an especially weird choice on his part, especially since I think "the Rogue Prince" and "The Princess and the Queen" were published long before that section about Maegor. Maybe he called them Blacks and Greens, then later retconned some extra significance for the color green?
I think it was just a a show addition and that it never crossed GRRM's mind. Plus, why would Alicent be declaring war at that moment? Rhaenyra hasn't done anything. In the show, she had a clear reason.
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin I actually prefer the show in how Rhaenyra and Alicent are portrayed. A much more personal conflict.
I always took it as she is envious of her aka GREEN of envy.
Wait, why does it say that Daemon was Rhaenyra's "favourite uncle"? He's her only uncle??
There's the dead one....so, not much competition.
I guess they could count the half uncles on the Arryn side!
Exactly! Like what other uncles does she have at this point? Alyssa's son who died way before Rhaenyra was even a glint in her father's eye, her great-uncle Vaegon at the Citadel who she's never even met, and her uncle-by-marriage Corlys Velaryon (he's technically the husband of her cousin once removed, but let's be generous here). But yeah, Daemon is her absolute favorite. She can't contain her excitement at him being back from the war he left to fight in 106AC, when she was all of 9 years of age. Like why are even discussing this? Rhaenyra at the party where she dressed "dramatically" in red and black is the *very picture* of a woman waiting for her lover to come back home from the war. And there he lands, all dressed in gold and silver, leaping from his dragon right into her eager arms. Lol, jk. It's clearly an attempt by the Masters to bring "evidence" that there was some pre-existing affinity between Rhaenyra and Daemon, and meant to give some extra credibility to rumors that they eventually started banging.
@@PfcDupuis You're right, but is there any evidence she even met these people?
Well, sons of Runaway Saera, cousins of Viserys, are somewhat uncles... but yes, it's a stretch.
Glad to see this series back, I've been rereading the book
10:32 I think the "dragons" might refer to Targaryens and not actual dragons, as in Targaryens of one party spitting "flame" (hatred, insults, etc.) at Targaryens of the other party.
Does that fit with needing to be "sharp-eyed" to notice? Also, this isn't Mean Girls where lords and ladies would always travel together and occasionally pass each other in the halls. Its court. Dozens of people would be fluid, constantly interacting is all sorts of different ways. It just doesn't fit.
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin Maybe their gestures of hatred were subtle and those "sharp-eyed" could see the truth beneath it. Though, maybe it really wasn't that subtle, but enough to at least fool Viserys into thinking they were not feuding.
So, was it 12 year old Rhaenyra and 2 year old Aegon trading insults? :)
@@iliaponomarev1624 Not really. As Preston pointed out, although he was talking about actual dragons, there seems to be a misplacement of events in the timeline by Gyldayn.
@@iliaponomarev1624 Or it could be that the "dragons" are the Targaryen SUPPORTERS of each party. Kinda like how Stark armies are called "wolves" and Lannister armies are called "lions".
I mean it in the best way possible that these videos are great to fall asleep to, it's relaxing lmao
We are back , I'm back , everyone's back....let's do this
Gyldayn must be drinking some good stuff everytime he writes. From well-established practices to a child Rhaenyra wooing anyone. The guy's just: 🍻🍺🍻🍺
yessss i was just rooting around youtube searching for something good to listen to
18:33 I got the feeling it was some how related to the black and green glass candles at the Citadel. Not sure how but after reading house of the Dragon and then rereading the book series that is what caught my eye and made me think of Black's and Greens when they talk about the three glass candles in the Citadel being black or green
I think another point that is worth noting that is that as far as we can tell based on the actual events removed from the various writers bias, the idea that there is an upswelling of anti-Rhanaerya sentiment isn’t born out.
At the end of the day, the Greens only attract the support of the Hightowers, Lannisters, the Baratheons and their assorted lackeys. And the Baratheons only enter the war once they are in a position to seize power, after the Lannisters and Hightowers have effectively been knocked out of the war, which doesn’t imply a deep commitment in my view. In contrast, the blacks are supported by the Starks, Tullys, Arryns and Greyjoys as well as many of the major houses in the Reach and the Crownlands and of course House Velaryon. Notably, of these only the Greyjoys need serious prompting and only the Velaryons have familial ties to Rhanaerya. By all appearances, the majority of Westeros is not nearly as troubled by a ruling queen or Daemon as king as the histories try to make out. The greens in this light are very much a court based conspiracy with limited support elsewhere.
And to be honest I’m not sure how surprising this is. The greens have been the dominant faction politically for nearly a generation by 129 and there are probably many lords who for one reason or another they have antagonised. It could well be that for many, the thought of Daemon making Otto Hightower quake in his boots was a massive plus, not a negative.
It should be noted that the Starks effectively needed to be bribed to join the war with a future marriage proposal, and the Tullys needed to be threatened by a dragon to align with a side and thus had to commit lest their House get decimated by the Greens. As for the Arryns? Their head was a woman who empathized with Rhaenyra's plight so aligned with her.
So basically only the Arryns was actually loyal to the Blacks. And even then Lady Jeyne Arryn hated Daemon's guts and didn't wish to support him, so Daemon almost lost Rhaenyra a Great House.
Wish this was top pinned comment
Thomas Goodwin
Great post.
The Hightowers have always been very powerful because of their association with the maesters and The Faith.
During the reign of Viserys they made their power too visible and accordingly attracted great hostility.
It was a mistake they would be careful not to make again.
I'd argue that the change from Otto to Lyonel isn't so much meaningless, and more strategically irrelevant; you could say that Viserys didn't want to overtly upset the Hightower faction, but also wanted to reduce the things causing him personal strife and stress. "Shut the fuck up", but as a heavy-handed order from the Crown.
show!Viserys, at least is a man broken by the life-long wear and tear of stress physically manifest on his body, let alone mind; so maybe that's what conjures that idea in particular to me.
Pretty sure the "Dragon's snapping" is supposed to be a metaphor about the party members, not literally about their dragons. Rhaenyra may not have had "supporters" like Alicent, but there were surely people loyal to the king who were not fond of Alicen'ts party seemingly acting against his wishes.
Does that fit with needing to be "sharp-eyed" to notice?
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin yes, if you didn't notice that the greens were subtly acting against rhaenyra you probably wouldn't notice the people who disliked and sought to undermine them. In the same way some can be involved and some oblivious to office politics.
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin I believe it does. The factions under the false social decorum would probably use subtle cutting remarks or small rude actions.
This is how I interpreted that, it's metaphorical
> the Queen wore a green gown, whilst the Princess dressed dramatically in Targaryen red and black
Should really be:
"The Princcess dressed appropriately in Targaryen red and black, whilst the Queen dramatically wore green, the colour of the Hightower flame when Oldtown calls its banners".
I see Preston is bringing back this series with some truly spicy takes... Didn't expect that, but I like this series a lot. Not necessarily because I agree with most of it, but I do find it very intriguing. It gives one something to chew on throughout the fandom hiatus.
Nice! Preston's finally getting back to these.
Yes!!!! It's back!!!! Missed these doing HotD!
Good to have this series back. Thank you Preston
One of the best eps so far. Very eye opening
Preston, I love you and your extremely thoughtful analyses. But why is this series still called Overanalysing Hotd instead of overanalysing F&B?
because he's overanalyzing the book Fire & Blood, not the TV show
@@clownpendotfart Then shouldn't this be called Overanalyzing “The Dance of the Dragons”? At the end of the day, it's all about that
@@clownpendotfart good point btw
@@nyz7971 Yeah, exactly. That's the thing. He is not overanalyzing the show - why does it have its name?
@@aleksandarnikolov3182 could it be because more people will search for the show than book? For more views? Original post has been edited anyway and my answer doesn't make any sense anymore lol
“Good place to stop” gave me Michael Penn maths flashbacks
Interesting usage of "hector" as harass, irritate, etc. when it is directly etymologically related to Greek mythology. What, pray, is the origin of the Westerosi usage of "hector"?
and the text of fire and blood is written in english when theres no england in westeros😱😱😱
Preston Jacobs -- Though you express frustration with HotD, and rightly so at times, you are deeply a fan.
Happy Thanksgiving Preston
I assumed that "the dragons snapping and spitting fire at each other" was metaphorical. The "dragons" meant Targaryens and their supporters, not their literal dragons. I could be wrong though
been waiting for the return of the series :)
Would their rivalry seem more legit if they both wore the same dress to the tourney and that started the beef?
The Hightowers totally magicked the favor that Lynesse gave to Jorah. That's why he was never able to recreate the "magic" (his word) in subsequent tourneys
Back with a bang.
I thought this was a podcast at first, lol, forgot about this series. Woot!
A friendly reminder that Viserys was a shit king who made shit decisions, and naming Rhaenyra as his heir was one of the worst decisions made by any king Westeros has ever known.
I believe Aegon the 4th made the worst decision by legitimizing his bastards. That decision made a ripple affect that is still affecting the realm in the main story
@@LaloWick
No Dance, no Aegon IV as king. His ascension was a direct result of the Dance.
@@honkeykong4049 very true
@@honkeykong4049 so the dance created the worst king.
@@LaloWick
The Dance was *caused* by the worst king.
I took the line ‘snapping dragons’ as meaning that the children were snapping at each other. With the benefit of the show, we can see the seeds of the children’s (dragons) growing hatred and disdain for one another. Just my two cents.
Rhaenyra didn't have any kids yet.
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin haha, my mistake. I think I’m obviously having the show conflate my memory of events.
(analysis 2/3)
Reading on: "Here is where our sources diverge." a.k.a. "Bullshit ahoy!".
as in "We don't know what actually happened, but this won't stop us from laying it on thick."
First, we get a sensible accounting, from an actual Maester (i.e. the person *officially in charge* of keeping records).
"Grand Maester Runciter says only that the brothers quarreled again, and Prince Daemon departed King’s Landing to return to the Stepstones and his wars. Of the cause of the quarrel, he does not speak. Others assert that it was at Queen Alicent’s urging that Viserys sent Daemon away."
Viserys and Daemon fought, Daemon was sent away and fucked off back to the Stepstones, because, I conjecture, all the spears and arrows the Triarchy could muster were infinitely preferable to sharing a roof with Rhea Royce.
That part with "others assert ..." is about as trustworthy as a Myrish mountebank. Who exactly would these "others" be? The blacks at court who have thus far remained anonymous?
Daemon and Viserys seemed to fight as a hobby, so I don't think they needed any help from Alicent to start another quarrel. Meanwhile, the other two sources point to an altogether different cause: Rhaenyra.
Eustace and Mushroom both have tea to spill, and, as luck would have it, one offers Earl Grey, while the other servers up full on English Breakfast. So whether you're a moderate reader looking for some plausible explanation, or a complete lecher looking for salacious details, Maester Gyldain has you covered.
Eustace just says Rhaenyra and Daemon slept together, were caught by Arryk Cargyll of the Kingsguard and "brought before the king", where Rhaenyra asked to marry Daemon, but Viserys refused because Daemon was already married. Viserys grounded Rhaenyra (likely so she wouldn't take off with Daemon), exiled Daemon and, importantly, *commanded both of them never to speak of what had happened.*
But then ... who blabbed? Ser Arryk is sworn to silence, Daemon and Rhaenyra are told to stfu. There's no indication anyone else was there. Given that Viserys wanted to keep it on the DL, he wasn't bloody likely to invite spectators.
So how did this story make it to Septon Eustace? Through confession? But then shouldn't the good Septon keep it to himself?
At the end of the day, Eustace's story boils down to:
Rumpy-pumpy => Rhaenyra requests marriage to Daemon => Refusal because Daemon is wed => Quarrel
Now, let's consider Mushroom's story, which you will have already read 100 times and which, for that reason, I won't repeat in full on here. Basically, other than it being complete filth which would have made Caligula blush, the only thing of note is that that, whatever they might have done in this story, Daemon went about it in secret: "flew with her on dragonback to lonely rocks in Blackwater Bay, where they could disport naked all day unobserved", "smuggle her from her rooms dressed as a page boy and take her secretly to brothels on the Street of Silk".
If they were unobserved in Blackwater Bay, then who the everlasting fuck would even know what they were doing? People just saw them flying off and coming back. They could have been doing rolly pollies or playing checkers.
Rhaenyra is never said to participate in activities on the Street of Silk, only to observe. How would people even know it's her and how would this carry on for any length of time? In the series, they're basically caught on the first outing.
And the involvement of Cole in this whole sorry tale doesn't make any sense either, because Rhaenyra's betrothal to Laenor, and her allegedly offering herself to Criston on the night of her betrothal, was said to have happened "long before any man had reason to doubt her innocence".
It's said "the whole tale soon came out" - who did it come out to, exactly? Clearly, it wasn't public, otherwise there wouldn't be 3 different versions of it. We'd have one version, as we do for the whole scandal with Saera. So it seems that, according to Mushroom's tale, Mushroom just went blabbing to Viserys and "Prince Daemon confirmed the tale was true", again according to Mushroom.
So this is *Mushroom telling us that Daemon told Viserys that what Mushroom told Viserys is true*. So, basically, it's mushrooms all the way down!
Also, we have it from Mushroom that "Lord Strong, the King’s Hand, argued that the prince should be put to death immediately as a traitor, but Septon Eustace reminded His Grace that no man is as accursed as the kinslayer." However, Septon Eustace makes no mention of this in his story. Perhaps he toned it down for the pearl-clutching brigade? Then why mention it at all?
At the end of the day, Mushroom's story boils down to:
Hanky-Panky => Daemon requests marriage to Rhaenyra => Refusal because Daemon is wed => Quarrel
So, considering these two tellings, let’s just take out the guff and see what we’ve got.
Daemon-Rhaenyra action => Marriage request => Refusal because Daemon is wed => Quarrel
There are some questions:
How much action took place?
Who requested the marriage?
To answer, let's consider one more aspect. In 112 AC, concurrently with the whole Daemon situation, Rhaenyra was being heavily courted, and the matter was decided by Viserys and the council: "The best choice, king and small council finally agreed, would be Rhaenyra’s cousin Laenor Velaryon."
This was against Rhaenyra's wishes: "King and council had neglected to consult the princess, however, and Rhaenyra proved to be very much her father’s daughter, with her own notions about whom she wished to wed."
So what were Rhaenyra's notions about who to wed?
- There's Cole, who's Kingsguard. Rhaenyra can't be serious about eloping with him and hoping she'd still get the throne.
- There's Harwin, who was her lover later. However, there's no notion Rhaenyra ever asked to wed him and she only gets with him later.
- And finally, there's the obvious candidate: Daemon. Both Eustace and Mushroom mention requests for a Daemon-Rhaenyra wedding, that got shot down by Viserys because Daemon was already married. Rhaenyra seemed to enjoy his company, so it's likely he was either her first choice, or she was not opposed to it.
Daemon had previously asked Viserys to set his own marriage aside, which indicates that there was just cause to set the marriage aside: it was probably not consummated, as we see in the show.
Viserys was using the marriage that he himself refused to set aside as an excuse to deny Rhaenyra to Daemon. Daemon is pissed off, and rightfully so, in my opinion.
Half of the pox-ridden lords of the realm, grey beards and green boys, are allowed to court Rhaenyra, but he, the Targaryen prince, the dragon rider, the war hero with the blood of old Valyria coursing through his veins, isn't allowed to shoot his shot. That's gotta hurt!
Instead, Viserys wanted to marry her to Laenor, a gay man, only to appease Corlys Velaryon. At this stage, the Velaryons have 3 dragons, while the Targaryens have only 2, so that might have had something to do with his decision. The council also likely opposed any marriage of Daemon to Rhaenyra to keep him as far away from power as possible.
So what did actually happen, in the book, between Rhaenyra and Daemon?
1. Daemon returned to King's Landing and joined the court.
2. In that capacity, he got to spend time with Rhaenyra.
3. Eventually, Daemon started courting Rhaenyra, as every other eligible lord was doing, except, being Daemon, he excelled at it. How far did the physical relationship get? It's really immaterial, but there was no real reason for them to be sleeping together, given that Daemon's getting his needs met on the Street of Silk, and Rhaenyra has no reason to jeopardize her position.
4. After spending some quality time courting Rhaenyra, Daemon concluded that marrying her would be a smashing idea, and she likely agreed. She does marry him later, so she's clearly into him.
5. Daemon, possibly accompanied by Rhaenyra, went to Viserys with the marriage proposal, but it was shot down. Daemon's marriage to Rhea was put forth as the reason, but this was most likely an excuse and the real reason was that Viserys had already agreed to wed Rhaenyra to Laenor, without consulting her.
6. Rhaenyra seemingly has to choose between the throne and marrying who she wants (Daemon). She picks the Throne.
7. All hell breaks loose and, enraged at both his brother and niece, feeling once again rejected by his family, Daemon leaves for the Stepstones.
This also explains Daemon and Rhaenyra's later relationship. You see, later in the story, Rhaenyra married Laenor and moved to Dragonstone, while Daemon was with Laena on Driftmark. Their families saw each other constantly and spent a lot of time together. However, none of Rhaenyra's oldest sons are fathered by Daemon, even though there was plenty of opportunity for that to happen, and it would have prevented a lot of discussion about their legitimacy.
So why didn't this happen? Well, with this version of the events, Daemon found himself rejected by Rhaenyra. Either he got over Rhaenyra and found love with Laena (most likely, given the book) or was still pining for Rhaenyra, but was still upset she didn't choose him (this is the version we get in the show). In the books, it's not clear who fathered Rhaenyra's children, despite their brown hair, because genes they might have inherited from their Baratheon and Arryn ancestors. So either Rhaenyra is faithful to Laenor, or is happy enough with Harwin to not go chasing after her uncle. It's definitely clear though that Rhaenyra and Daemon's "fatal attraction" is a show-only concoction. Otherwise, they would have never been able to keep off each other for 10 whole years, and we'd have seen some silver-haired babies.
So there's my best guess of Rhaenyra's relationship with Daemon, as can be ascertained from the testimonies of the three blind mice.
Am I crazy or did this series used to be called Overanalyzing Fire & Blood? Did you rename it to correlate with the show?
nah it was always named overanalyzing hotd, but preston and carmine had podcast episodes analyzing fire and blood when it came out, so they were titled things like Fire and Blood-Heirs of the Dragon Podcast Ep Etc. maybe that’s what you’re thinking of
The snapping dragons is a metaphor for the targs factions people verbally snapping at each other at parties...
I mean, very clearly not as the dragons’ behavior is observed by sharp-eyed people and the dragons are described as passing each other by chance, but I appreciate the benefit of the doubt that you allow George. :)
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin I don't see how being observed by sharp-eyed observers or passing eachother by chance makes this more literal? In fact, it doesn't make sense literally. You don't need to be keen-eyed to notice dragons spitting fire on eachother, most people would notice a flamthrower going off.
To me it seem like a pretty clear metaphor for the factions appearing cordial to eachother but observant people would notice the underhanded comments and the like when they passed eachother.
It is likely written in such a weird poetic way for 3 reasons: GrrM loves weird poetic prose, the maester want to make Alicents side appear as Targaryens instead of what they actually were, Hightowers and their cronies, and lastly because actually describing the kind of off-handed shade throwing would make it clear that Rhaenyra (a child) didn't participate and the feud was one-sided.
@@jonttopia Oh my lord, this is just ridiculous. Dragons are big, powerful creatures. Lickspittles aren't dragons. GRRM would never make that metaphor, ever.
No as we all know whenever it talks about dragons it's being 100% literal all the time, there's no such thing as metaphors
@@willowwright4638 Do you have an example of "dragon" being used metaphorically for anyone that wasn't a Valyrian?
I would love to see a debate between you and Hill's Alive about what side was correct.
My favorite series!
The only sense I see to the naming of the Blacks and Greens would be a sort of symbolism of the Black brothers of the Night's Watch, founded by the First Men, against the Greenseers of the Children of the Forest. Just a guess 🤷🏾♂️
The emotions that ran through me when I saw the thumbnail
1:23 F&B2 teaser
Hey Preston, thanks for putting this out today. I needed something to lift my spirits. This was that something.
Preston, nice work as always!
The green and black dress story is funny now looking back at it
Yeah making the incident where the factions pop up about Alicent who dramatically wears a green dress makes more sense
Fair to assume this is book only
This isn't related to ASOIAF but do you enjoy going through historical facts to put in your videos or did you start when you began to make theories?
2am was just about to sleep then got this notification. Cheers Preston ffs
Since the end of house of the dragon I found out your channel and have seen like 50 videos of yours lol
(analysis 3/3) Look for parts 1 and 2 somewhere in this comment section. TH-cam limits comments to 10,000 characters, so I had to chop this thing up.
To recap, this is what I think happened in 111AC, after the first round of fighting in the Stepstones:
1. Daemon returned to King's Landing and joined the court.
2. In that capacity, he got to spend time with Rhaenyra.
3. Eventually, Daemon started courting Rhaenyra, as every other eligible lord was doing, except, being Daemon, he excelled at it. How far did the physical relationship get? It's really immaterial, but there was no real reason for them to be sleeping together, given that Daemon's getting his needs met on the Street of Silk, and Rhaenyra has no reason to jeopardize her position.
4. After spending some quality time courting Rhaenyra, Daemon concluded that marrying her would be a smashing idea, and she likely agreed. She does marry him later, so she's clearly into him.
5. Daemon, possibly accompanied by Rhaenyra, went to Viserys with the marriage proposal, but it was shot down. Daemon's marriage to Rhea was put forth as the reason, but this was most likely an excuse and the real reason was that Viserys had already agreed to wed Rhaenyra to Laenor, without consulting her.
6. Rhaenyra seemingly has to choose between the throne and marrying who she wants (Daemon). She picks the Throne.
7. All hell breaks loose and, enraged at both his brother and niece, feeling once again rejected by his family, Daemon leaves for the Stepstones.
It is, more or less, what happened in the show with Rhaenyra's courtship. She made out with Daemon, but they didn't sleep together. Rhaenyra could have refused Laenor and ran away with Daemon when he came back from the Vale, the night of the feast, but chose to stay, do her duty and inherit the Throne. Viserys could have wed Daemon to Rhaenyra, but chose not to do it, because he wanted to keep Daemon away from the throne and he wanted to patch things up with Corlys.
In the show, the Cole affair serves to sour things with Alicent. In the books, there's no reason for it because Alicent can't stand Rhaenyra and is already determined to take the throne. Book Cole stops being Rhaenyra's sworn protector because he becomes Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. He later turns on her when she starts sleeping around with Harwin. It's possible he loved her and wanted to run away with her, but was turned down.
At any rate, I'm probably wrong about half of this, and we'll hear what Preston has to stay in his next video.
It is never a good place to stop 😢
The Dragons spitting fire at each other I think is obviously just a fancy way to talk about the Greens and the Blacks themselves, not their dragons.
Can we talk about how "the Blacks and the Greens" is no different than two people in the same family wearing different jerseys during Sunday Night Football? Two people who are lifetime fans of, say, the Jaguars and the Packers (literally the Blacks and the Greens) just happen to wear their favorite team's colors because that's what they've done their entire lives?
Unless Rhaenyra rolls up into Philly wearing a Penguins dress, she's not going to get actual hate for wearing her family's colors at her family dinner. It's so ridiculous lol
Have you watched the DJ peach cobbler video on hotd?
Thanks
Wouldn’t Sunfyre and Syrax have been in the dragonpit in the years Rhaenyra was in the red keep after Aegons birth. Maybe they hissed fire at eachother
One way you should try to make It clear you talking about the books is by not using images from the show. That can be a little confusing especially how diferent the show is
First comment!! Love your videos man. Thanks for all the hard work.
Was hoping the title would be Rhaenyra and Alicent’s so called life
While I agree that in modern terms Rhaenyra is a child and Alicent is an adult we need to take into account context. In medieval society, which is what this is just fantasy medieval society, once you were old enough to conceive children you were considered an adult. So Rhaenyra being 12 or 13 in these times she was an adult by the standards of the time. So The argument that Alicent is feuding with a child doesn't hold water because she wasn't by those times standards. 12 and 13 year old boys were regularly going off to war so it is not unreasonable to assume that Rhaenyra was sleeping with Cole. Hell In the Books Robb was like 14 years old and leading a rebellion so people grew up a lot faster. Rhaenyra wasn't a child.
back are we and
George himself addressed f&b are not his best writing but he brought up way more messed up in his writing lol. Gildayne is grrm himself.
Ahh just the perfect way to settle in for the night after a long day of eating and talking politics with family.
I want to like this video series but I can't focus
Preston King!
back in black
I wonder why in the show they have Viserys clearly accepting and presumably keeping the Stepstones crown from Daemon?
Shouldn’t this be called Overanalyzing Fire And Blood?
Woohoo! Just by not eating pizza and wings while watching election results, you're officially the best TH-camr in town.
Let's be extra vigilant... Because our sentence by sentence analysis hasn't been vigilant enough yet
I so wished they'd aged up Criston...really takes u out of the otherwise brilliant TV narrative
No, just give Wendigoon a haircut, that's enough
Gyldayn source: trust me bro
Alicent was really beefing with a child lmao.
You'd be surprised to see how often these medieval structures often lead to older upstarts in the royal court usurping the royal baby. In fact; it's kinda a hallmark.
I mean that child was in her way of getting more political power
@@Kai555100
Snow White and The One Dwarf.
@@J.lind_2012 it's not only here, every sub on Reddit have the same problem.
I so glad you read this boring book so I didn't have to. 😊👍
The scandal !!! Hahahah
Back are we and
It seems reasonable to assume that the so - called Blacks or Princess' Party were a reversionary interest who for one reason or another were at odds with The Hightowers and hoped to take power in the name of Rhaenyra if Viserys should die.
Gyldayn misunderstanding this can be ascribed to hindsight bias since Rhaenyra did take a leadership role many years later.
Unreliable narrators are amazingly convenient for excusing author error.
Other than Green dress being the color for war.
that really the only big thing about the dinner
Well, that's a show invention (the connection between the dress and flame), but in F&B, it wouldn't really make sense. Why would Alicent be declaring war at that moment? What has Rhaenyra done? In the show, Rhaenyra lied to her best friend, betraying her trust. In F&B, Rhaenyra...did nothing.
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin rhaenyra flowers/becomes a women she's wearing a dress. girls unflowered girls wear skirts not dresses.(even in 18th-19th century american young girls would wear skirts and as they get older their skirts become longer longer as dresses) rhaenyra wearing that dress is symbolizing adulthood and ferity,
lords not sworn could use that as cover to not swear to her and they could say her mother had difficulty with childbirth she might not even be able ferity be able to flower, have kids.
2. i cant remember in the first book if anya wore skirts as a young girl and even tho sansa as a unflowered girl did wear dresses she was expected to soon flower. 2.5 but in the books girls who act tomboyish wear shirts (or with/pants under them )not dresses her wearing. goes on to point 3.
3. her wearing a dress at the dinner is symbol she's now an adult and can have kids she's taking/distancing alicents kids spot at the throne .
4. relooking at the little sentence i dont think it says rhaenyra is wearing a dress unless its 1 of those unsaid things.
5. most girls flower at 12-13 so rhaenyra flowers at the dinner/feast.
6. maybe alicents brother(cousins) asked for her hand but being beaten by her sworn sword. no way.
7. if rhaenyra wore a skirt at the dinner she could hade/been saying im still immature and i dont want the throne.
8. also alicent could just take rhaenrya wearing a dress as a declaration of war.
9. the dinner could be og a 5th wedding anniversery and all/alot the lords are coming to it but right before rhaenrya flowers at age 12-13 and all the congratulations are going to her for becoming a women/flowering.
GOAT
Oh no the women wore dresses of their houses the horror - Gildane probably
I feel like your analysis in this episode, while thorough, is exploring things from an especially critical lense on the part of the author. GRRM very obviously intended for Rhaenyra and Alicent to be feuding/rivals at this point, and while the playing field obviously isn’t equal, going as far as to suggest that it’s just one sided attacks is kinda silly. I think GRRM allowing for the age up in HOTD was to correct for an error he made in his narrative- that being the massive age difference between Rhaenyra and Alicent completely screwing up the dynamic.
Sounds very show watcher, unless you’ve read all the books your perspective will always differ and will most likely side with how things are depicted in the show versus the actual literature. GRRM isn’t fixing anything in the show, he more or less says yes it no to whatever the showrunners decide to do. He’s not heavily influencing anything he just makes sure they don’t completely change his work by changing the narrative completely or it’s ending. Other than that, they have carte Blanche to do as they please. And although they lie and say they’re unbiased the show runners heavily favor the Green Party. Just as D &D favored the Lannisters in GOT though they claimed unbiased yet they murder the main character in the last episode for no illogical reason.
@@clownpendotfart that’s not my point. The show maintains all of the various accusations against Rhaenyra and the rivalry that builds between her and Alicent as depicted in the books, but at appropriate ages. The entire point of the show is that it’s a more accurate telling of what happened. While George can’t retcon the ages of characters, he can allow for a more popular but consistent and logical interpretation of his narrative to be put to screen.
@@elliottwilliams9221 I’ve read fire and blood twice, find a better way to dismiss my opinion. Acting like GRRM’s influence is merely advisory when the script and dialogue are very, *very* heavily influenced by his style- filled with Georgisms and the like- is silly.
Also, really? You think the show runners are greens? They go out of their way to make Alicent more sympathetic, sure, but that’s because she was a cartoon villain in the books. I mean christ, they made again commit SA and showed one of his terrified victims on screen. Otto acts like a Latin American dictator purging the former government, and Aemond up until Luke’s death acts like an unrepentant psychopath. Just because they’re trying to add nuance to the story it doesn’t mean they’re anti-Rhaenyra.
I dont at all think the book age difference between Rhaenyra and Alicent is an error. Neve thought that at all while reading the books. Why do you think its an error in the books? That point isn't entirely clear in your comment.
@@mschell8022 I mean that the narrative George seems to be crafting, both in previous source material and in HOTD, is of a feud between Alicent and Rhaenyra, not one sided bullying.
yay
Back are we and.
At last!
Its never a good place to stop :(
Twow next chapter when? FINISH THE BOOK OLD MAN
Most emotionally intelligent least bad faith ASOIAF gatekeepter.
Archmaester Gildayne is so biased 😂😂 it’s ridiculous, I tend to believe the fool’s accounts over his. One favors the greens the other the blacks and then the other maester adds more context to both. But most certainly the Hightower’s are the original Lannisters, wealth power influence and taking out Targaryens and noble houses to stay on top. And the Baratheons help along the way all the way until Stannis. Blackfyres too but with different motivations.
The fool claimed he had sex with Rhaenyra, sooo...
Why would you skip part 2 of your HotD season review to go back to analyzing the text? If the goal is to separate book and show, wouldn't it make sense to finish your show review first?
PJ IS BACK FOMOS