Only at night when you are by the Academy, looking at the Erdtree it's transparent, and you can see the Moon behind it through the illusion, it's no surprise the Carians worshipped the Moon instead of the Erdtree.
@@jakevuckturd1201 You can't just make something transparent as an oversight. It's usuaully just a property of the surface and is really easy to spot for developers when they are flying in editor
@@saniel2748 the tree could just be apart of the skybox and they just stuck the moon in front of the skybox/dome because it moves with the time of night.
My God, this makes the "Look at the sky, it burns" sentence in the 2019 trailer so damn fitting, since in the first trailer we're witnessing the Shattering...we finally know that is the Erdtree burning, for the first time
So that’s why during the chaos ending you only see the stump, not just a different alteration of the illusionary tree like all the other endings. The chaos ending just burns everything down, every illusions included.
Indeed. Incidentally, in agrarian societies before the advent of machinery, burning was the method of choice for getting rid of pesky and persistent tree stumps.
No, thats just bechause we set the Tree on fire, and probably burned it to a crisp in this Ending. A thing we dont do in the other Endings. Also the Tree gets realistic looking wood in Fias Ending, making it look a lot more genuine. Also we can set the Thing aflame. How would that be possible with an Illusion? And how can the Tree make its leaves fall? Are those Illusions to? They cant be, considerung the Erdleaf-Flower Item Discription tells us, that it grew when an Erdtree-leaf hit the Ground. You require a physical Form to have those kinds of Impacts. And finally: The Word illusinary has multiple Meanings. You can for Example, discribe a ghost as illusionary. So that could just refer to the trees ghost-like Nature. Dont get me wrong. This Theory is fun to think about, I just dont think the Evidence holds up. That will be all.
I just wanted to point out the erdtree entrance looks to be broken into multiple times, and the presence of flower blooms that require very specific events to be fertilized tells me there used to be a natural cycle of life, rot and then fire to burn away the rot for the new world cycle. It's reminiscent of ashes of ariandel, a dlc for ds3 which showed a world that would normally burn itself to prevent rot, instead rotting forever.
Like Ranni, the body of the ErdTree was destroyed, but it’s soul persists. Similarly, the body of the Great Roots persist, yet the soul corrupted/ destroyed; like Godwyn
Nice video. Some believe Goldfrey is a manifestation of Morgott's magic, which is an interesting take on it. If you believe the gold of the Erdtree's trunk is an illusion, how do you feel about the way it lights up from the inside in the mending endings? A bit of an editorial suggestion: It was a little difficult hearing you at times. It might help keeping your voice ~20dbs higher than the background music. (-10dbs for voice, -30dbs for music is a common practice)
Thanks! Appreciate the input. Yes we are working on the audio... Regarding the first point, whether you want to call Godfrey a sprite conjured by magic, or an illusion, the idea is the same. He is summoned from the power of the Elden Ring rather than taking his original physical form. And as for the Erdtree itself, I think the takeaway is that it was once corporeal like the Minor Erdtrees, and was subsequently burnt, resulting in the current illusory form which is "more an object of faith", and ending the Age of Plenty. The fact that it regenerates (so to speak) in the mending endings seems consistent with it being, again, a manifestation of the now mended Elden Ring. PS: We very nearly had a section that referenced your Great Tree / Erdtree work, and how this would work into the notion of the Erdtree being previously burnt, but it didn't make it. Regardless it was very helpful! Keep up the good work!
@@tarnishedarchaeologist considering the usual berserk influences. I feel like the fake tree is a repeat of the idea of a fake sun in anor londo or the idea of evil in berserk being something that the minds of people conjure to give them meaning but they are ultimately the source of. the tree is less of a tree and more of the idea of a tree to worship, when it's taken away, the collective will of the people either pray for a new tree or just never admit that it disappeared and thus it continues to be because it is core to their entire identity. hewg burning is a good example of this.
Exactly! When I heard that the Erd Tree was burned down before, I was like:' Whut?' ' No way!' 'By Melina!' And all we're doing is helping her finish the job!
I like the idea that after the first burning, the citizens of Leyndell tried to sweep the ash off to the side, to hide what had happened. There's obviously that area locked by the big door with the Misbegotten with most of the ash. But there's also quite a bit of ash just off in the corners of the main city.
I wonder why the ash wasn't totally removed from Leyendel by its occupants in the long amount of time that supposedly passed since the first/previous burning of the Erdtree. The city seems to have the resources to do it if it wanted to. So why would it not want to finish the job?
@@shayneweyker could be a religious thing, since it's the ash of their holy tree disposing of it proper might be seen as crass. I mean what would christians do if they believed they had the ashes of jesus or something? main difference here being scale. could also just be that since the shattering they haven't really had the resources to do it, honestly the soldiers might be the only people left in leyndel at this point.
Very well spoken. I think you might be on to something here. Even Melina, with her burned and bodiless form implies she may have already been once used for kindling. Or at least an attempted one. Not to mention that item descriptions tell us Vyke was presented with the same choice as us. This means that the burning of the tree is not some one off event, but one tarnished are planned to partake in. Notice how Gideon and the Finger Reader are so quick to approve of you committing this great sin against the Greater Will. And let's not forget Bernahl is said to have thrown his maiden into the fire. He may be the one who caused the first burning.
you know i used to think bernahl went into his obvious suicidal depression because he sacrificed his maiden to the forge and nothing happened. But what if it did work and he couldn't cope with the consequences of that? No more sap blessings mean no more births after all. Bernahl may not only have killed his beloved maiden, but also doomed his entire civilization with it.
@@SophiaLilithUwU It's possible that Melina was that kindling maiden. "I have to ascertain for myself: The reason, for which I live, burned and bodiless". When you summon her her dagger glows with what seems to be deathflame. She may be cursed to persist much like headless knights; cursed perhaps because she failed in her purpose the first time around.
@@Xandros999 Melina is 100% the kindling maiden. Whats ambiguous or not is whether she is the only one, or if all finger maidens can be used as kindling.
I’m not entirely convinced by the thesis that the Erdtree is fully illusory at this point - that the first burning killed it, rather than maiming it. I do not believe the Shattering was the same as the first burning, as while the burning is the ‘first cardinal sin’ and may have led to the end of the golden age of flowing blessings, the Shattering did not involve fire, and it was at the shattering that the golden seeds spread - at least, the ones we find. The lesser Erdtrees, material in form, could have been born of an earlier seeding from the first cardinal sin; notably, the Crimson Seed Talisman reads “The Erdtree was once perfect and eternal, and thus was it believed that Erdtree seeds could not exist.” This period of disbelief in Erdtree seeds presumably predates the creation of the talisman, and could be either before the shattering, or before the first cardinal sin. Regardless, there’s much to think about, and I really appreciate your methodical approach; this is much more convincing to me than the Erdtree/Greattree distinction many theories make. Another small note: in the Age of Order ending, there are no longer falling leaves; we know the leaves are material enough for Erdleaf flowers to use them as mulch, and we know they are a sign of the tree’s decline. This points to a physical tree protected or sheathed by the illusory gold, one perhaps first scarred by fire, then later shattered in spirit. After all, there is a dualism to Elden Ring - body and soul die two deaths, so why not suffer two ailments?
Maybe the first burning didnt kill the erdtree, but maimed it enough to no longer give out sap? And the shattering was an attempt by marika to remedy this by reforging the order of the world? That may explain her motivation behind shattering the elden ring. She felt her hand was forced because as the one who gave out the erdtree's bounty, she would be the first to notice when the erdtree no longer gave out blessings. She saw her civilisation in decline and tried to go for a wild card.
While this doesn't disprove your point, the shattering most certainly did involve fire. According to the item description for the spark perfume, fire was once banned as a weapon by Leyndell, but as the shattering raged on this taboo was forgotten. So fire did seem to play a role in the shattering, enough that the devs felt a need to include an item description discussing the role of fire in it. Though, that doesn't mean the erdtree had to have been burned in the shattering. Ihave no idea when that would have happened.
I agree. It doesn't look like the phantom trees. At 5:45 it looks like a tree coated with gold, not a phantom. Given the golden orders propensity to repurpose things, this may have been the golden order repurposing the great tree. The seeds item tells us real seeds were spread. Also, when you set the Erd tree on fire, why would a phantom burn? It could be figurative but it strikes me as a more strained interpretation.
" we know the leaves are material enough for Erdleaf flowers to use them as mulch" Actually, their description specifically says that the leaves gave rise to them "in antiquity," implying that they don't anymore.
@@mrroams5812 I've had doubts about this theory since the OP. But if it is the case I'd say only those deemed worthy by the fingers to be graced by gold can see it as a beacon to compel them. But once they've lost the fingers favor that's no longer necessary. The one comment about the NPCs in the burning cutscene brings to question what they actually saw. Clearly something did burn to creat the ashes over Lyndell. But then again even illusions have been proven to take physical form such as Godfrey and the rest of Morgots magic. After all Morgot only fades away AFTER the burning.
As someone with a PhD in Elden Ring lore, I can confirm this theory. That tree is an illusion made by Gwyndolin, and the real Erdtree is searching for the Nameless King.
So, just as golden rememberances are hewn into the erdtree, the tree itself is a rememberance of the long dead tree Edit: the initial burning makes sense considering that burning the erdtree is considered the ‘first cardinal sin’ implying that it has already been committed to be the first despite the fact that the dialogue this was in happens before you burn the tree
Kinda like those ghost trees that you find in the Mountaintops of the Giants and Consecrated Snowfields. Speaking of the latter, strange that that's the only place where petrified wood is present in the game.
I think remembrance is a far better term than illusion, as the world illusion implies it's just an image. The remembrance of Godfrey is more than an image when he hits you with his axe afterall... It fits the overall metaphors of the golden order grasping onto power entirely by evoking the memory of their past glory. Irl the cultural myth of 'how great our nation used to be' is more than an illusion, it has real tangible power and affects the world greatly. It's also something that needs to be let go of before anything new can be built.
before the erdtree there was the great tree maybe that was burned it was like the erdtree but it came long before it and the faron azula we learn that the mausoleum was created long before the erdtree but it had its own version of thr elden rings and also an elden lord before the greater will fled so basically the first tree the great tree was burned and so the greater will abandoned that planet for some time before coming but and making the erdtree and appointing the 2 fingers and new elden lord and also marika
So... Rykard? He did commit "Blasphemy", his manor was the location of "the most appalling fight of the Shattering", he's connected to fire and heir of a lineage that "considered the Giants their neighbours". Probably with the help of Melina (Who _could_ be the Gloam Eyed Queen, and thus someone _very_ adept with Fire Magic).
@NoctisloligMessmer likely did it himself. if the current theory holds any validity, Messmer wields a combination of both the flame of ruin and destined death. The tree (and more specifically Radagon’s barbs) don’t burn until we’ve unleashed the rune of death back into the world. This would also explain why snakes are traitors to the GO and are seen as heretical.
@@joshvanzuydam True that the DLC is very weird in terms of lore. Too obscure as much as he's too evident. At least we have another point to tell Melina is Marika's daughter. Is Messmer could be the one to impale Marika for her punishment pose tho ?
This is really interesting. I'd assumed the tree was overridden or consumed by the gold, but it always gnawed at me that the tree is partially transparent. The simplest explanation of course: most of the tree isn't there any more
yes thought the same. At first i thought maybe they did not let the Entrance Glow because of Practical issues or for signalising that the Entrance wounded the Tree. But that it is not a Wound but the rest of the Tree XD funny
At the phantom tree site of grace, apart from being literally named a phantom tree, there sits a finger reader who says something about you being able to see "it". The gold that covers the heavens. Which made me think maybe "seeing the guidance of grace" had been construed as being able to see to see the Erdtree. It doesn't seem like the Erdtree is generally invisible to others though.
I'm not going to hold you I always to start was intended to be to be golden because*magic all powerful tree* but I'd be lying if I didn't say that these propositions didn't make sense
The only weird thing to draw attention to with the Erdtree is that the silther of original wood left over is shaped in such a way that the top holographic portion of the tree looks to have been deliberately grafted on to an alternative tree base. Seems to suggest the erdtree as being more of a parasitic addition to the great tree rather than a spiritual/holographic prosthesis.
It was in front of us all along!! It explains the uneasiness it gave me thoughout the game. The amount of awe this game throws at you is, unbelievable. The illusion is the manifestation of faith and belief into a mirage. Many real faiths have these "illusions" in form of miracles maybe? Thank you Sir.
When it came to the Erdtree scattering its seeds, what first came to my mind is how most trees (and other plants in general) produce as many flowers and fruit as they can when they're under some kind of stress. Basically, they "feel" that they may die and throw as much energy as possible at the next generation. Perhaps the Erdtree (being divine and all) knew that someone or something was about to destroy it and that's what caused it to produce and scatter its seeds.
That immediately came to my mind too. I liked the example of the burning trees the author presented to us but this kind of "last resort" is very common in nature. I personally have an example. Had a scorpion once and it (she) usually had babies once per year. The only time it did it too early, it died days later. It's like it already knew about it's passing and wanted to leave as much descendants as possible. I think the same logic can be applied to the Erdtree
A bit late but I just wanna add that I'm pretty sure there is a painting depicting a burning erdtree in the Volcano Manor. First I thought it was made with imagination, but it may be that the painter actually saw the tree burn down.
I think from the very first time I played the game and listened to the NPCs about the guidance of grace and other things it was always in my mind that the golden Erdtree was an illusion that only us tarnished could see, either that or that the Erdtree is real but only us can see its true light and form. Coming from other Fromsoft games, the themes of beautiful illusions masking something that had decayed or disappeared long ago are very common across a lot of their games.
I didn’t want to believe this theory was correct but as I watched it I realize how perfectly this whole idea fits into the thematics of Elden Ring, Sekiro, and the Souls Series The Erdtree is supposed to be burned for its life cycle to properly happen as just like the Age of Fire or the Pained Worlds or other living things like Men, Kings, and Gods, nothing is supposed to go on forever and be eternal (except for dragons I guess, idk they get a pass it seems)
wow. great video! I thought it was obvious that the erdtree had been burned before and that it's current manifestation is merely a phantom, and I'm surprised that you don't mention two items that seem intended to make that abundantly clear as we approach leyndell: the outer wall phantom tree site of grace (its name) and the minor erdtree church (its existence). in the case of the church, it's built around a tree that was previously alive (it's surrounded by broken jars) but now isn't (it wouldn't make sense to build a church around a still-growing tree), and its trunk is golden just like the erdtree's and unlike every other minor erdtree in the game -- even the one on mt. gelmir that was burned -- suggesting that it is an apparition rooted in faith.
Can't believe this is the first time I've seen this video or heard this theory. Also can't believe I didn't make the connection that the erdtree could be an illusion myself this whole time, it even matches the same ethereal yellow as Morgott's conjured weapons and the illusion of Godfrey.
I mean even in game if you stare at the Erdtree from a far you can notice that is transparent. In the beginning I thought it was something like a glitch but it turned out its actually transparent (you can test it yourself for example by going to church of Vows or to the "first step" site of grace at nighttime, you can clearly see the mountains behind it and even the stars through the tree)
This is a great theory, and I'm almost convinced - but if it's true, then why does Leyndell get covered in ash when we burn the illusion? If it's illusory, what effect is it even having?
This is exactly what I was thinking. The ash even physically blocks the passage to underground. Not to mention that illusion would not burn in the first place. I would say that erdtree had simply grown anew from the same roots, and naturally enveloped the last standing part of its old trunk. Then the different coloration is due to difference between living wood of actual tree and dead wood of the previous one.
It is an illusion only in the sense that it is not a complete, healthy, living tree. Much like other illusions such as Margit and Godfrey's shade, there is still a physical aspect to their existence that we are able to interact with. They are still "real" despite not being the original natural beings. Depending on how much of the tree remains underneath the illusion there is still something there to burn and produce real ash.
Illusions in this game have a sort of physicality to them, we fight lots of illusions and they still damage us and impact the world as real. I think perhaps the word illusion is misleading, perhaps it's better to think of them as spirits? Like the rememberence of what something once was is given physical form by a divine force. The glorious memory of hoarah loux becomes the legend of godfrey- that remembrance is given physical form by divine power to fight us. Similarly I think it's the cultural memory of how glorious the erdtree was that lets the current erdtree take form. So I guess it's not really an illusion, in the sense that it really is 'there' and has power, and when we use the giantsflame it's like were purging the power of remembrance away, so that the world can be ready for a new tree.
@@DisgruntledPeasant I'm more willing to believe this idea. All the boss remembrances are supposedly hewn into the Erdtree, so what if the Erdtree is built out of remembrances?
Your audio, pacing, videography...everything you do in these videos has improved so much. Which is great, because these videos were gripping right from the start. Nice job man!
Melina is closely linked to Destined Death, the name of the rune of death which was wielded by the Gloam-eyed Queen before Maliketh defeated her. So if the Erdtree was burned sometime in the past, then perhaps it was with the black flame. The Frenzied Flame ending, if you didn’t let Melina sacrifice herself makes it seem very likely that Melina once was the Gloam-eyed Queen.
the original cutscene text for when you burn the tree state that you used the black flame to burn the tree. Assuming this, it pretty much solidifies melina as the gloam eye queen and confirms she did indeed burn the erdtree before in her war against the greater will but later lost to Maliketh. But it was changed before launch so id guess the reveal at the end of the frenzy ending is mostly just oversight or something that they just didnt care enough to cut since she'll no longer be relevant for future dlc
@@jinji_xo maybe melina would've used the black flame in the game, and then we would defeat maliketh to restore it's power, this would make the forge of the giants pointless tho
@@jinji_xo or maybe she will still play a Role in the DLC´s, by changing her personal quest settings like giving her the opportunity to use the Black Flames for the Tree. Or more Content for what happens when you heal your Frenzy flame curse with the unnaloyed Needle. She still disappearsd then and it looks for me like unused possibilities.
@@jinji_xo Based on my (admittedly limited) experiences with FromSoft game design, NOTHING is oversight. We WILL see the loose ends wrapped up in DLC. The depth of detail is beyond anything else--everything is where it's meant to be.
@@jinji_xo I think it’s more likely that they changed their minds and now the story goes that the Giants almost burned down the Erdtree and the last war of Godfrey thus begun, cementing the use of fire as the first cardinal sin. I’m inclined to think that the conflict against the Gloam-eyed Queen goes before that, since Destined Death was sealed away at the creation of the Order. This would make the Age of Plenty coincide with Godfrey’s reign and the first period of constant war, since at the time the Erdtree’s blessings would need to be personally spread by Marika “in order to spread the faith” - logically, once the Erdtree ruled over anything, spreading the faith would stop being a main concern. Morevore, there’s still the possibility the Gloam-eyed Queen was a rival empyrean to Marika, vying to become a god, that had acquired the Rune of Death kind of like the Tarnished does. This doesn’t preclude Melina fom being the GEQ, since mother and daughter might have been opposed (in true Martin fashion), or Melina might have been personally reborn by Marika after her defeat by Maliketh. None of this is conclusive, of course, and even so I think there are still some pieces missing, but we love Elden Ring for this reason as wel. EDIT: I forgot to mention that such a shame at the hands of the Giants, the last glorious war of conquest ot herald a new age of civilisation unbroken, would be obviously covered up, also to downplay the trauma of the Age of Plenty coming to a close. EDIT 2: it just occured to me that, if Melina is indeed the GEQ, she might have been the one to burn down the Crucible, leaving the door open for Marika to turn it into the Erdtree. This would make this “cycle” more of a recurring theme through hostory, like in Dark Souls, than a metaphysical necessity. Besides, it would strengthen the theory according to which there has been a previous Shattering event with the dragons, leading to a long age of outer gods vying for power until an empyrean stood triumphant along an elden lord.
It seems FromSoft is making this world cyclical like they did Dark Souls. The Erdtree burned once before, and the Elden Ring was then mended by a former tarnished; a new age bloomed and prospered, until things started going bad again, requiring a new cycle of burning and re-mending
The very first item you are given ingame says that.. "The memory of first grace, which once guided bygone Tarnished to the Lands Between. Lose all runes and return to last site of grace visited. It is merely a cycle. Stand before the Elden Ring. Become the Elden Lord"
In the teaser trailer a burning sky is said to have coincided with the Elden Ring's shattering, this burning sky most likely being caused by the Erdtree being set on fire. th-cam.com/video/e5wwSxl0atc/w-d-xo.html time: 1:09
An excellent analysis in most matters concerning the subject matter, but one sticking point I have (admittedly minor in the context of the video) is the source of the wax sealing the various houses within Leyndell. It is possible, as you alluded to, that they were sealed to protect their inhabitants from the ash of a potential first burning of the Erdtree, but there are another pair of plausible scenarios that come to mind. The first is that the wax itself may be adipocere, more commonly referred to by its moniker of corpse wax; such a disastrous event as the Erdtree burning would likely have proved a nigh-apocalyptic occurrence, suffocating those closest to it and leaving their cadavers to gradually transform into the substance due to the lack of oxygen within the buildings post-burning. The other mentioned scenario is that a plague has afflicted Leyndell, forcing those within to quarantine themselves by sealing their doors with said wax (less likely admittedly due to a lack of evidence supporting such a theory, whether description-based or environmental). Both scenarios mentioned were originally detailed in Reddit posts I cannot link to due to the current bot crisis, but which can easily be searched for by typing in "Leyndell wax" in your search engine of choice.
I'm going through each of your videos after watching the Farum Azula one, you provide such FASCINATING insights and a perspective I've not heard anywhere else. Thanks for what ya do, it's really interesting and so fun to geek out and savor all of these environmental details!
Yeah. You truly understand this lore in a way most people just do not. When I try to explain that the Erdtree has burned before people act like Im making shit up. Lol. Its so hard to explain to people that the things they arent told are more important and accurate than the things they are explicitly told. Keep doing these great videos. Please.
which is wild because when you first go to Leyndell there is clearly ash everywhere that has been sorta "cleaned" up, it was pretty clear the reason why is because that tree had burned before. The incantation "Fire's Deadly Sin" even states "the burning of the Erdtree is the first cardinal sin. That is not the domain of mere man" How could it be the first sin if it hadn't occurred already? The prophets aren't seeing a future burning, they are seeing a past burning and putting it forth as prophecy, creating effectively something self fulfilling.
This makes a lot of sense because even after we burn the tree, most endings will show the tree "intact", albeit changed in some way for some endings. Furthermore, I'm not sure if this was intentionally alluding to this but throughout the game you can sometimes make out the land features *behind* the erdtree when looking at it from a distance, like it's transparent. It very much feels incorporeal, and doesn't even cast a shadow (though the latter is probably a bit of an artistic choice to make sure the sun properly shines on those areas especially the capital which would've been heavily shaded with a very different aesthetic).
The problem with this theory is... There HAS to be something solid there, behind the golden sheen. There HAS to be. The ash the buries the capital is NOT an illusion. Branches have crushed buildings, bridged gaps, and ash is literally filling giant chasms. If there isn't SOMETHING behind that sheen, more than just the sliver with the doorway, then there'd be nothing to turn to ash. This theory is proven at least partially wrong, just by the mere existence of the Ashen Capital.
In somewhat random order, a couple of comments and opinions. 1) I was pretty skeptical about the idea of the "Erdtree being just an illusion because it was once burnt" but I have to admit, this is a pretty compelling argument. I am not so much persuaded by descriptions about the seed and the tree itself, but Melina's nature as an already burned being and the parallel with the Erdtree is extremely fitting. 2) The Erdtree being burned as result of Melina sacrifice on the orders of Marika fits as well with the idea of the Shattering being a very messy moment as well. At the same time there were people griefing the death of Godwyn, Ranni was doing her thing and Marika shattered the Elden Ring. Burning the Tree might as well have been just a step to be able to destroy the ring, not unlike we have to burn it to access it. The Erdtree appearing again as a semi-real thing fits the "broken but still there" nature of the Elden Ring and rather than being a seat of power it became a cage for Marika, now an enemy of the Greater Will. On the other hand, I don't think that the end of the "Age of Plenty" is related with this burning. That happened well before the Shattering IMO. The idea that the reign of Marika was short enough to describe the end of the blessings as "sudden" seems absurd to me. If anything, the end of the blessings is comparable with the end of an older period of her rule. We know that there has been a change in the way the Golden Order was between the age of Godfrey and Radagon (the primal and warrior heavy ancient period and the modern enlighted and intellectual recent on). Personally I see this Age of Plenty as a cultural period between the two, when Godrey was about to get axed out of the Order and early Radagon. 3) Rather than "Illusion", I would call it a "Phantom". An Illusion is something only sensorial, used to fool people and/or hide something. In the context of From Soft games (which, at this point, even if separated have mantained some stylistic choices), "Phantoms" are the ways other players manifests, including some NPCs and enemies. Phantoms in this context aren't simply something you see, it's something that can act on the world. Invaders can kill you, summoned allies can kill your enemies. The "Golden Godfrey" looks exactly like a player would with that shade of gold as colour. Melina looks slightly different because her nature is more "in-between" I guess, and so does the Tree. They look physical, but they aren't. There are some point I would argue a bit more about but, well, I am 6 months late to the video so whatever. I'll just add that... 4) Holy shit nice channel dude, why the uck didn't YT suggest me your videos sooner!
Fantastic points. We may use your "phantom" term in an upcoming video, if you don't mind. Stay tuned, by the way, for more -- we have some good episodes coming soon. And even though you're 6mo late, we're glad to have you.
(Smoughtown brought me here and I am very thankful) Amazing video. I never once considered the Erdtree was burnt before. The only part I think I disagree on is the time at which the first burning happened. I think the first burning likely happened before the Shattering. Item descriptions from the Amber Medallion Talismans as well as various others indicate that there was an age of Plenty which ultimately came to an end, and then the Erdtree became more of an object of Faith. Also, there are many real minor Erdtrees around the Lands Betweens that all seem to be around the same size which may mean that they were all planted around the same time.
Great video! I'm so happy someone else agrees that the Erdtree is an illusion, similar to the illusory Godfrey fight. However, what's the significance of the two Margits NOT being golden, yet still an illusion (possibly along with the Astels, but that may be a different kettle of fish)? Now, could the Minor Erdtrees be the direct result of the Erdtree's first burning and the tiny golden saplings - from which we gain the golden seeds - be some illusion? Or, if there was an older, corporeal Great Tree that pre-dated the golden Erdtree that we now see, are the corporeal Minor Erdtrees spawned from a burning or destruction of the Great Tree and then the golden saplings the spawn of a previous burning of the golden Erdtree?
5 minutes in and I subscribed and this is my first video. Your research is phenomenal based on your references and your interpretation is beyond what I've seen on other channels in some aspects. I still enjoy MadLuigi's targeted histories, but your videos are a great complement to his and may soon overtake his as my favorites.
The Old finger Maidens in the way to the Mountaintop of the Giants and in the Two Fingers Room, point out that it indeed was burned before, that's why it is a "cardinal sin". However, what it's bugging me right now, is that Giddeon states (no one trusts Gideon but) That MArika want's the Tarnished to Endure this suffering. Giddeon didn't bat an Eye when the Erdtree was burned but he sure didn't want us to get to the throne. (Even though, Marika said that she would make Godfrey Elden Lord again, and Godfrey was there) Damn
Gideon says that for only one reason: he doesn't know that Radagon is Marika. Radagon is the one who wants the tarnished to fight forever and he's the one who wants to keep the status quo, with the Erdtree sealed for good. Seems that his name should be Gideon the almost allknowing.
@@domfar5380 But that makes things worse: Giddeon says he was presented Marika's own plans by Marika herself, Not Radagon. We know Marika is Radagon but Marika (through Melinas dialogue in the bedchamber) says that Radagon wasn't always Marika, but there would be a time when He would be so. So to the Inner Circle (The Two Finger, The Fundamentalists, Their Kids AND GIDDEON) Marika Isn't Radagon and they would be right about that. +It seams the translation for this game is really bad so I imagine there's a lot we wo'nt get until someone share's that information
I find it weird those arguments below being like : "if the tree is an illusion, why the ashes ? hmmm ?" Pretty sure the golden-ghost version of Godfrey is also an illusion , yet it can still beat the shit out of you . I think the use of the word "illusion" here does not mean "immaterial" , just "not what it seems"
For the point on Golden Godfrey- I've heard it said that that boss is actually the Remembrance of Godfrey. That's why you don't get one when you kill it, and why the Remembrance you get in the real fight is of Hoarah Luix.
Maybe there was just as much or more ash after the shattering of the Elden Ring like when we burn the Erdtree, but the wind carried it away and the remaining inhabitants tried to clean it up. That would explain why there is only ash in corners and less used passageways.
Love the channel. This video rocks, but the ‘ash’ In lyndell is probably from the rubble from the two defenses, the shattering and time passing. Additionally, the doors are sealed well before we arrive, most likely with amber. I agree, it could be corpse wax, but it seems far more likely there is root resin forming around the base of the erdtree. With that said, I thing elden ring is a repeating cycle, so having the town sealed to stop the ash is a very enticing concept
Holy sh1t...You are the first One to answer my questions "why the Doors are sealed w wax, why there is so much Ash? And why Melina's hands are already Burned?"... You are a Genius!
Well done video, well said. The Erdtree being illusory would also fit thematically with characters having illusory/spirit selves(Godfrey, Mellina, Ranni).
Yooo just realised, what if melina's accomplice in burning the tree was messmer and thats why he got sent to the land of shadow and kept secret even though he's a demigod
I just wanna say, that coming here after watching your last video the difference in audio quality is apparent so much that it hurts my ears 😂 You've come a long way TA, both with audio quality and the information presented, keep up the good word! (subscribed haha)
This would make sense when you consider he possibly being the Gloam Eyed Queen, who burned the Erdtree in the past with the Godskin Apostacy using the Blackflame before being defeated by Malaketh and having the Rune of Death taken and hid away outside time, that explained by the fact we can kill Malaketh in Farum Azula and then feed him death root in Bestial Sanctum til we end the game.
Ranni stole a fragment of destined death which started the shattering. If the gloam eyed queen is Melina then after the tree was burned and being defeated by Malaketh she helped Ranni. The fact that she is the kindling for burning down the erdtree and it can only be burned with blackflame, which is destined death paired with fire, it would make sense that she is still connected to it. I suspect she worked with Ranni in getting the fragment and used it to burn it down the second time too.
Interesting theories, although I do agree that the erdtree did burn before the player's time beause there are already piles of ash all over leyndell when we get there and possibly melina was also responsible having burn scar on her arms, but I do not believe that the gold on the erdtree is just an illusion but something like how ancient dragons are gold beneath thier gravel stone scales, the series of events I would propose is after the shattering war and the return of the tarnished, Morgott might have been more cooperative then as the tarnished are supposedly the people of his father, vyke was widely the most favoured champion but on his way to the mountain tops he met shabriri and we know how that went, the next was probably bernahl and he was able to best the fire giant hence the splint on its the left leg, and he did burn the erdtree with melina but they didn't know what to do next, melina lost her body, bernalh lost his faith seeing that burning his maiden only burnt the outer layer of the erdtree and morgott horrified to the burning of the erdtree began his champion hunts and became more hateful towards the tarnished, which also explains when we met melina she wanted to go to leyndell again, because I think she knows she has to burn the erdtree but the last time didn't work because destined death is out of the equation and it was only after leyndell did she keep going on about the lands needs death
I find this very agreeable. It didn't completely work the first time, hence only bits of ash as opposed to the mountain of it once Death was unleashed.
Hearing your theory that Melina is the one who burns the tree, couldn't that make her the original maiden of Bernahl? Since his armour description? (maybe the hammer) claims that he was destined to be the next elden lord before his maiden cast herself into a fire.
No, seperate characters. Frenzy ending reveals to us that Melina is the gloam eyed queen, not Bernahls maiden. She burnt the erdtree during the war with Marika but lost to Maliketh and had her power sealed away. Melina's mother isnt Marika, the base of the erdtree is far below ground.. where the Nameless Eternal City and Godwyn the Golden lay to rest. Theres so much context missing from the story that anyone could throw a theory at it and itll make sense, thats Fromsoft storytelling for ya
@@jinji_xo Small issue with that one, the Deeproot Depths are specifically said to be the roots of the Greattree, not the Edrtree. It is also stated in, I believe, the deathroot description that the Greattree is worshipped because it's roots are said to intertwine with the roots of the Greattree (not sure if singular or plural, there do seem to be multiple), but they are very much separate objects.
Interesting take ma dude! good video! as for the erd tree being an illusion, we get lore stating the shattering is what severed the roots of the great tree from the erd tree, we see a lot of art work depicting the erd tree in the past before the shattering standing upright when it was still rooted, and it still holds that shining golden glow. The ash could have been from the siege we see in one of those cutscenes depicting the shattering. the golden seeds state they are found at the foot of an illusory tree, but its explained that not everyone can even see grace, so i think seeing the illusory trees with the golden seeds may just be an offshoot of our tarnished connection with grace.
I think you're onto something with this. This would explain all the ash that's in Leyndell and it explains why Melina is "burned and bodiless", you can even seen scars on her hands. This honestly may be what happened.
'We knew not whether we were on heaven or on earth': exactly this! I've long thought that entering Leyndell for the first time is supposed to make you feel like a Viking entering Mickelgard.
I just "discovered" this channel and I think that the content is not good. Not at all. IT IS FUCKING AMAZING! Great and amazing work, man. I hope your talent and dedication is being rewarded. I really do.
When you die you leave runes behind. The runes manifest as tiny sprouts. If something with a titanic ammlunt of runes died, it would make sense that it would leave behind a gigantic marker.. Hey, dont all the erd trees sit right on top of catacombs, graveyards and ancient tombs?
Possible, sure. My initial thought when I was playing was that Mt. Gelmir had previously erupted and covered the area in volcanic ash that was swept aside, and that one of the reasons Liurnia is so overcast is there's still enough of an ash cloud blocking sunlight down there. The Altus Plateau is substantially higher (and the non-elevator route is blocked by a Magma Wyrm then a freaking dragon, after you're told to go that way by a resident of Mt. Gelmir). The problem is that the peak of Gelmir is higher still (hard to tell elevations in this game, but you do go up a ton of ladders before dropping back down).
Your point about some trees needing to burn in order to release seeds got me thinking about the themes of the cyclical nature of the world and the futility of attempting to resist it present in previous FromSoft games. Fire in Elden Ring is heavily associated with death, through the Flame of Ruin and the god-slaying Black Flame of Destined Death. Marika contained the Flame of Ruin within the Forge of the Giants and sealed away Destined Death within Maliketh, thus creating the Golden Order. I suspect this is why Marika is known as “the eternal”, because she removed the fire which leads to death and change. Melina, who is the kindling maiden, also seems to be associated with the Gloam Eyed Queen and Destined Death. Maybe when Ranni stole the Rune of Death, thus unleashing that god-slaying black flame for the first time since the Rune of Death was removed from the Elden Ring, it allowed the Erdtree to be burned.
I’m not saying this theory is false but if you go way up into the Erd Tree (like almost at the top high) you can find a long, huge branch that is made of real physical bark like the minor Erd Trees.
If we compare the burning of erdtree with the burning of the rainforest in Brazil done by nomadic people, we could interpret the ash of being the root of fertility and that the age of plenty was caused by this fertile ash and only lasted shortly as the nutrition was absorbed by the world.
This is what I think about the dlc.....we're gonna find the real tree in the land of shadow. It's being hidden by the greater will and was when it took over
Only at night when you are by the Academy, looking at the Erdtree it's transparent, and you can see the Moon behind it through the illusion, it's no surprise the Carians worshipped the Moon instead of the Erdtree.
Dude nice
It's possible that's just a rendering oversight
@@jakevuckturd1201 You can't just make something transparent as an oversight. It's usuaully just a property of the surface and is really easy to spot for developers when they are flying in editor
@@saniel2748 the tree could just be apart of the skybox and they just stuck the moon in front of the skybox/dome because it moves with the time of night.
@@Ghorda9 I find this to be highly unlikely
My God, this makes the "Look at the sky, it burns" sentence in the 2019 trailer so damn fitting, since in the first trailer we're witnessing the Shattering...we finally know that is the Erdtree burning, for the first time
So that’s why during the chaos ending you only see the stump, not just a different alteration of the illusionary tree like all the other endings. The chaos ending just burns everything down, every illusions included.
Indeed. Incidentally, in agrarian societies before the advent of machinery, burning was the method of choice for getting rid of pesky and persistent tree stumps.
I initially thought it was to show how severely the Frenzied Flame destroyed the Erdtree. But just removing the illusion fits in nicely aswell.
@@tarnishedarchaeologist You're a true Elden Lore Lord, we appreciate your fine work. A giant of insight among mere men.
@@tarnishedarchaeologist when I look at our history... burning shit is our go to for solving a myriad of life's problems lol
No, thats just bechause we set the Tree on fire, and probably burned it to a crisp in this Ending. A thing we dont do in the other Endings. Also the Tree gets realistic looking wood in Fias Ending, making it look a lot more genuine. Also we can set the Thing aflame. How would that be possible with an Illusion? And how can the Tree make its leaves fall? Are those Illusions to? They cant be, considerung the Erdleaf-Flower Item Discription tells us, that it grew when an Erdtree-leaf hit the Ground. You require a physical Form to have those kinds of Impacts. And finally: The Word illusinary has multiple Meanings. You can for Example, discribe a ghost as illusionary. So that could just refer to the trees ghost-like Nature. Dont get me wrong. This Theory is fun to think about, I just dont think the Evidence holds up. That will be all.
I just wanted to point out the erdtree entrance looks to be broken into multiple times, and the presence of flower blooms that require very specific events to be fertilized tells me there used to be a natural cycle of life, rot and then fire to burn away the rot for the new world cycle. It's reminiscent of ashes of ariandel, a dlc for ds3 which showed a world that would normally burn itself to prevent rot, instead rotting forever.
Good point! Miyazaki certainly loves a good cycle.
Rot, represented by Malenia, fire by Melina and new life by Miquella
Very spot on nice
Like Ranni, the body of the ErdTree was destroyed, but it’s soul persists.
Similarly, the body of the Great Roots persist, yet the soul corrupted/ destroyed; like Godwyn
Nice video. Some believe Goldfrey is a manifestation of Morgott's magic, which is an interesting take on it. If you believe the gold of the Erdtree's trunk is an illusion, how do you feel about the way it lights up from the inside in the mending endings?
A bit of an editorial suggestion: It was a little difficult hearing you at times. It might help keeping your voice ~20dbs higher than the background music. (-10dbs for voice, -30dbs for music is a common practice)
Thanks! Appreciate the input. Yes we are working on the audio...
Regarding the first point, whether you want to call Godfrey a sprite conjured by magic, or an illusion, the idea is the same. He is summoned from the power of the Elden Ring rather than taking his original physical form. And as for the Erdtree itself, I think the takeaway is that it was once corporeal like the Minor Erdtrees, and was subsequently burnt, resulting in the current illusory form which is "more an object of faith", and ending the Age of Plenty. The fact that it regenerates (so to speak) in the mending endings seems consistent with it being, again, a manifestation of the now mended Elden Ring.
PS: We very nearly had a section that referenced your Great Tree / Erdtree work, and how this would work into the notion of the Erdtree being previously burnt, but it didn't make it. Regardless it was very helpful! Keep up the good work!
@@tarnishedarchaeologist considering the usual berserk influences. I feel like the fake tree is a repeat of the idea of a fake sun in anor londo or the idea of evil in berserk being something that the minds of people conjure to give them meaning but they are ultimately the source of. the tree is less of a tree and more of the idea of a tree to worship, when it's taken away, the collective will of the people either pray for a new tree or just never admit that it disappeared and thus it continues to be because it is core to their entire identity. hewg burning is a good example of this.
Three brilliant, brilliant videos. Feels like the first time in a long time that something new has been brought to the table. Keep up the good work.
Exactly! When I heard that the Erd Tree was burned down before, I was like:' Whut?' ' No way!' 'By Melina!' And all we're doing is helping her finish the job!
I like the idea that after the first burning, the citizens of Leyndell tried to sweep the ash off to the side, to hide what had happened. There's obviously that area locked by the big door with the Misbegotten with most of the ash. But there's also quite a bit of ash just off in the corners of the main city.
I wonder why the ash wasn't totally removed from Leyendel by its occupants in the long amount of time that supposedly passed since the first/previous burning of the Erdtree. The city seems to have the resources to do it if it wanted to. So why would it not want to finish the job?
@@shayneweyker could be a religious thing, since it's the ash of their holy tree disposing of it proper might be seen as crass. I mean what would christians do if they believed they had the ashes of jesus or something? main difference here being scale. could also just be that since the shattering they haven't really had the resources to do it, honestly the soldiers might be the only people left in leyndel at this point.
Very well spoken. I think you might be on to something here. Even Melina, with her burned and bodiless form implies she may have already been once used for kindling. Or at least an attempted one. Not to mention that item descriptions tell us Vyke was presented with the same choice as us. This means that the burning of the tree is not some one off event, but one tarnished are planned to partake in. Notice how Gideon and the Finger Reader are so quick to approve of you committing this great sin against the Greater Will. And let's not forget Bernahl is said to have thrown his maiden into the fire. He may be the one who caused the first burning.
This guy gets it.
you know i used to think bernahl went into his obvious suicidal depression because he sacrificed his maiden to the forge and nothing happened. But what if it did work and he couldn't cope with the consequences of that? No more sap blessings mean no more births after all. Bernahl may not only have killed his beloved maiden, but also doomed his entire civilization with it.
@@SophiaLilithUwU He is after all now devoted to blasphemy, and carries the weapon that symbolizes the serpent devouring the entire world.
@@SophiaLilithUwU It's possible that Melina was that kindling maiden. "I have to ascertain for myself: The reason, for which I live, burned and bodiless". When you summon her her dagger glows with what seems to be deathflame. She may be cursed to persist much like headless knights; cursed perhaps because she failed in her purpose the first time around.
@@Xandros999 Melina is 100% the kindling maiden. Whats ambiguous or not is whether she is the only one, or if all finger maidens can be used as kindling.
I’m not entirely convinced by the thesis that the Erdtree is fully illusory at this point - that the first burning killed it, rather than maiming it. I do not believe the Shattering was the same as the first burning, as while the burning is the ‘first cardinal sin’ and may have led to the end of the golden age of flowing blessings, the Shattering did not involve fire, and it was at the shattering that the golden seeds spread - at least, the ones we find. The lesser Erdtrees, material in form, could have been born of an earlier seeding from the first cardinal sin; notably, the Crimson Seed Talisman reads “The Erdtree was once perfect and eternal, and thus was it believed that Erdtree seeds could not exist.” This period of disbelief in Erdtree seeds presumably predates the creation of the talisman, and could be either before the shattering, or before the first cardinal sin.
Regardless, there’s much to think about, and I really appreciate your methodical approach; this is much more convincing to me than the Erdtree/Greattree distinction many theories make.
Another small note: in the Age of Order ending, there are no longer falling leaves; we know the leaves are material enough for Erdleaf flowers to use them as mulch, and we know they are a sign of the tree’s decline. This points to a physical tree protected or sheathed by the illusory gold, one perhaps first scarred by fire, then later shattered in spirit. After all, there is a dualism to Elden Ring - body and soul die two deaths, so why not suffer two ailments?
Maybe the first burning didnt kill the erdtree, but maimed it enough to no longer give out sap? And the shattering was an attempt by marika to remedy this by reforging the order of the world? That may explain her motivation behind shattering the elden ring. She felt her hand was forced because as the one who gave out the erdtree's bounty, she would be the first to notice when the erdtree no longer gave out blessings. She saw her civilisation in decline and tried to go for a wild card.
While this doesn't disprove your point, the shattering most certainly did involve fire. According to the item description for the spark perfume, fire was once banned as a weapon by Leyndell, but as the shattering raged on this taboo was forgotten. So fire did seem to play a role in the shattering, enough that the devs felt a need to include an item description discussing the role of fire in it. Though, that doesn't mean the erdtree had to have been burned in the shattering. Ihave no idea when that would have happened.
I agree. It doesn't look like the phantom trees. At 5:45 it looks like a tree coated with gold, not a phantom. Given the golden orders propensity to repurpose things, this may have been the golden order repurposing the great tree.
The seeds item tells us real seeds were spread.
Also, when you set the Erd tree on fire, why would a phantom burn? It could be figurative but it strikes me as a more strained interpretation.
" we know the leaves are material enough for Erdleaf flowers to use them as mulch" Actually, their description specifically says that the leaves gave rise to them "in antiquity," implying that they don't anymore.
@@JMCrookston Clearly looking at the base of the tree which is acknowledged in the video as the only remaining part.
I think it's fair to assume all the other tarnished who can't see the grace of gold also can't see the tree at all.
This is a really interesting point.
If that were to be true. How come they see it burn?
I very much doubt it
What would be the point of the illusion if almost no one can see it? Surely its purpose is to convey false strength which it cannot do if invisible.
@@mrroams5812 I've had doubts about this theory since the OP. But if it is the case I'd say only those deemed worthy by the fingers to be graced by gold can see it as a beacon to compel them. But once they've lost the fingers favor that's no longer necessary.
The one comment about the NPCs in the burning cutscene brings to question what they actually saw. Clearly something did burn to creat the ashes over Lyndell. But then again even illusions have been proven to take physical form such as Godfrey and the rest of Morgots magic.
After all Morgot only fades away AFTER the burning.
As someone with a PhD in Elden Ring lore, I can confirm this theory. That tree is an illusion made by Gwyndolin, and the real Erdtree is searching for the Nameless King.
First time Fromsoft players won't understand this. =[
I freaking loved it lol hahaha
I see you
I'm NOT a first time FromSoft player and I have no idea what you're talking about.
@13mrservon ...
I think its a "Elden Ring takes place in the Dark Souls universe" reference.
So, just as golden rememberances are hewn into the erdtree, the tree itself is a rememberance of the long dead tree
Edit: the initial burning makes sense considering that burning the erdtree is considered the ‘first cardinal sin’ implying that it has already been committed to be the first despite the fact that the dialogue this was in happens before you burn the tree
Kinda like those ghost trees that you find in the Mountaintops of the Giants and Consecrated Snowfields.
Speaking of the latter, strange that that's the only place where petrified wood is present in the game.
I think remembrance is a far better term than illusion, as the world illusion implies it's just an image.
The remembrance of Godfrey is more than an image when he hits you with his axe afterall...
It fits the overall metaphors of the golden order grasping onto power entirely by evoking the memory of their past glory.
Irl the cultural myth of 'how great our nation used to be' is more than an illusion, it has real tangible power and affects the world greatly. It's also something that needs to be let go of before anything new can be built.
before the erdtree there was the great tree maybe that was burned it was like the erdtree but it came long before it and the faron azula we learn that the mausoleum was created long before the erdtree but it had its own version of thr elden rings and also an elden lord before the greater will fled so basically the first tree the great tree was burned and so the greater will abandoned that planet for some time before coming but and making the erdtree and appointing the 2 fingers and new elden lord and also marika
The tree that WE see, is the biggest Rememberance in all the Lands Between (that we know of!) DAMN!
So... Rykard? He did commit "Blasphemy", his manor was the location of "the most appalling fight of the Shattering", he's connected to fire and heir of a lineage that "considered the Giants their neighbours".
Probably with the help of Melina (Who _could_ be the Gloam Eyed Queen, and thus someone _very_ adept with Fire Magic).
and with the new dlc it looks like we’re gonna learn more about the first burning
@NoctisloligMessmer likely did it himself. if the current theory holds any validity, Messmer wields a combination of both the flame of ruin and destined death. The tree (and more specifically Radagon’s barbs) don’t burn until we’ve unleashed the rune of death back into the world. This would also explain why snakes are traitors to the GO and are seen as heretical.
And the DLC has provided absolutely nothing on this topic unfortunately and pretty much excludes Messmer from having done it.
@@joshvanzuydam True that the DLC is very weird in terms of lore. Too obscure as much as he's too evident.
At least we have another point to tell Melina is Marika's daughter.
Is Messmer could be the one to impale Marika for her punishment pose tho ?
This is really interesting. I'd assumed the tree was overridden or consumed by the gold, but it always gnawed at me that the tree is partially transparent. The simplest explanation of course: most of the tree isn't there any more
yes thought the same. At first i thought maybe they did not let the Entrance Glow because of Practical issues or for signalising that the Entrance wounded the Tree. But that it is not a Wound but the rest of the Tree XD funny
At the phantom tree site of grace, apart from being literally named a phantom tree, there sits a finger reader who says something about you being able to see "it". The gold that covers the heavens. Which made me think maybe "seeing the guidance of grace" had been construed as being able to see to see the Erdtree. It doesn't seem like the Erdtree is generally invisible to others though.
I'm not going to hold you I always to start was intended to be to be golden because*magic all powerful tree* but I'd be lying if I didn't say that these propositions didn't make sense
This is some of the best Elden Ring lore content to date. Happy I could be one of your first 1000 subs! Great work!
What a wonderful comment, thank you.
The only weird thing to draw attention to with the Erdtree is that the silther of original wood left over is shaped in such a way that the top holographic portion of the tree looks to have been deliberately grafted on to an alternative tree base.
Seems to suggest the erdtree as being more of a parasitic addition to the great tree rather than a spiritual/holographic prosthesis.
Melina burned twice. First time body second time spirit. Just like the tree. Fitting
It was in front of us all along!! It explains the uneasiness it gave me thoughout the game. The amount of awe this game throws at you is, unbelievable. The illusion is the manifestation of faith and belief into a mirage. Many real faiths have these "illusions" in form of miracles maybe?
Thank you Sir.
You know, I was wondering why the wood around the front door to the Erdtree looked so weird! You explained it really well
cant believe i missed this series. binge watch time
This is the birth of Tarnished Archeologist. Enjoy the binge
When it came to the Erdtree scattering its seeds, what first came to my mind is how most trees (and other plants in general) produce as many flowers and fruit as they can when they're under some kind of stress. Basically, they "feel" that they may die and throw as much energy as possible at the next generation. Perhaps the Erdtree (being divine and all) knew that someone or something was about to destroy it and that's what caused it to produce and scatter its seeds.
This is an underrated comment
That immediately came to my mind too. I liked the example of the burning trees the author presented to us but this kind of "last resort" is very common in nature. I personally have an example. Had a scorpion once and it (she) usually had babies once per year. The only time it did it too early, it died days later. It's like it already knew about it's passing and wanted to leave as much descendants as possible. I think the same logic can be applied to the Erdtree
A bit late but I just wanna add that I'm pretty sure there is a painting depicting a burning erdtree in the Volcano Manor. First I thought it was made with imagination, but it may be that the painter actually saw the tree burn down.
I like how that has symmetry with the sculptor of marika/radagon
I think from the very first time I played the game and listened to the NPCs about the guidance of grace and other things it was always in my mind that the golden Erdtree was an illusion that only us tarnished could see, either that or that the Erdtree is real but only us can see its true light and form. Coming from other Fromsoft games, the themes of beautiful illusions masking something that had decayed or disappeared long ago are very common across a lot of their games.
This is some of the best Elden Ring lore content I've come across! Keep it up!
I didn’t want to believe this theory was correct but as I watched it I realize how perfectly this whole idea fits into the thematics of Elden Ring, Sekiro, and the Souls Series
The Erdtree is supposed to be burned for its life cycle to properly happen as just like the Age of Fire or the Pained Worlds or other living things like Men, Kings, and Gods, nothing is supposed to go on forever and be eternal (except for dragons I guess, idk they get a pass it seems)
This channel is amazing. The lore of the land has more lore then item descriptions in this game
Agreed. As in real world ancient history, the documentary evidence is only half the story...
You were 1 HP there at the end with Morgott! If that ain’t some good old fashioned TA plot armor right there. Thank you for the awesome video.
Good stuff, brilliantly put together. Keep 'em coming.
wow. great video! I thought it was obvious that the erdtree had been burned before and that it's current manifestation is merely a phantom, and I'm surprised that you don't mention two items that seem intended to make that abundantly clear as we approach leyndell: the outer wall phantom tree site of grace (its name) and the minor erdtree church (its existence). in the case of the church, it's built around a tree that was previously alive (it's surrounded by broken jars) but now isn't (it wouldn't make sense to build a church around a still-growing tree), and its trunk is golden just like the erdtree's and unlike every other minor erdtree in the game -- even the one on mt. gelmir that was burned -- suggesting that it is an apparition rooted in faith.
Hadn't thought about this but it makes a lot of sense to me 🤔
This theory has gained more weight thanks to the shadow of the erdtree dlc trailer. Messmer might have burned the tree the 1st time.
Can't believe this is the first time I've seen this video or heard this theory. Also can't believe I didn't make the connection that the erdtree could be an illusion myself this whole time, it even matches the same ethereal yellow as Morgott's conjured weapons and the illusion of Godfrey.
I've enjoyed the few videos I've seen in this series so much. So, I'm starting at the beginning and watching them in order. Cheers.
I mean even in game if you stare at the Erdtree from a far you can notice that is transparent. In the beginning I thought it was something like a glitch but it turned out its actually transparent (you can test it yourself for example by going to church of Vows or to the "first step" site of grace at nighttime, you can clearly see the mountains behind it and even the stars through the tree)
This is a great theory, and I'm almost convinced - but if it's true, then why does Leyndell get covered in ash when we burn the illusion? If it's illusory, what effect is it even having?
Maybe our first trip to lendeyll was an illusion in itself put on by the erd tree and when it's burnt that illusion dissapears
This is exactly what I was thinking. The ash even physically blocks the passage to underground. Not to mention that illusion would not burn in the first place. I would say that erdtree had simply grown anew from the same roots, and naturally enveloped the last standing part of its old trunk. Then the different coloration is due to difference between living wood of actual tree and dead wood of the previous one.
It is an illusion only in the sense that it is not a complete, healthy, living tree. Much like other illusions such as Margit and Godfrey's shade, there is still a physical aspect to their existence that we are able to interact with. They are still "real" despite not being the original natural beings. Depending on how much of the tree remains underneath the illusion there is still something there to burn and produce real ash.
Illusions in this game have a sort of physicality to them, we fight lots of illusions and they still damage us and impact the world as real.
I think perhaps the word illusion is misleading, perhaps it's better to think of them as spirits? Like the rememberence of what something once was is given physical form by a divine force.
The glorious memory of hoarah loux becomes the legend of godfrey- that remembrance is given physical form by divine power to fight us.
Similarly I think it's the cultural memory of how glorious the erdtree was that lets the current erdtree take form. So I guess it's not really an illusion, in the sense that it really is 'there' and has power, and when we use the giantsflame it's like were purging the power of remembrance away, so that the world can be ready for a new tree.
@@DisgruntledPeasant I'm more willing to believe this idea. All the boss remembrances are supposedly hewn into the Erdtree, so what if the Erdtree is built out of remembrances?
Your audio, pacing, videography...everything you do in these videos has improved so much. Which is great, because these videos were gripping right from the start. Nice job man!
Your videos are so underrated man. Absolutly mind blowing, please do a continuation of this video explaining the first attemp of burning the erdtree!
Melina is closely linked to Destined Death, the name of the rune of death which was wielded by the Gloam-eyed Queen before Maliketh defeated her. So if the Erdtree was burned sometime in the past, then perhaps it was with the black flame. The Frenzied Flame ending, if you didn’t let Melina sacrifice herself makes it seem very likely that Melina once was the Gloam-eyed Queen.
the original cutscene text for when you burn the tree state that you used the black flame to burn the tree. Assuming this, it pretty much solidifies melina as the gloam eye queen and confirms she did indeed burn the erdtree before in her war against the greater will but later lost to Maliketh. But it was changed before launch so id guess the reveal at the end of the frenzy ending is mostly just oversight or something that they just didnt care enough to cut since she'll no longer be relevant for future dlc
@@jinji_xo maybe melina would've used the black flame in the game, and then we would defeat maliketh to restore it's power, this would make the forge of the giants pointless tho
@@jinji_xo or maybe she will still play a Role in the DLC´s, by changing her personal quest settings like giving her the opportunity to use the Black Flames for the Tree. Or more Content for what happens when you heal your Frenzy flame curse with the unnaloyed Needle. She still disappearsd then and it looks for me like unused possibilities.
@@jinji_xo Based on my (admittedly limited) experiences with FromSoft game design, NOTHING is oversight. We WILL see the loose ends wrapped up in DLC. The depth of detail is beyond anything else--everything is where it's meant to be.
@@jinji_xo I think it’s more likely that they changed their minds and now the story goes that the Giants almost burned down the Erdtree and the last war of Godfrey thus begun, cementing the use of fire as the first cardinal sin. I’m inclined to think that the conflict against the Gloam-eyed Queen goes before that, since Destined Death was sealed away at the creation of the Order. This would make the Age of Plenty coincide with Godfrey’s reign and the first period of constant war, since at the time the Erdtree’s blessings would need to be personally spread by Marika “in order to spread the faith” - logically, once the Erdtree ruled over anything, spreading the faith would stop being a main concern.
Morevore, there’s still the possibility the Gloam-eyed Queen was a rival empyrean to Marika, vying to become a god, that had acquired the Rune of Death kind of like the Tarnished does. This doesn’t preclude Melina fom being the GEQ, since mother and daughter might have been opposed (in true Martin fashion), or Melina might have been personally reborn by Marika after her defeat by Maliketh.
None of this is conclusive, of course, and even so I think there are still some pieces missing, but we love Elden Ring for this reason as wel.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that such a shame at the hands of the Giants, the last glorious war of conquest ot herald a new age of civilisation unbroken, would be obviously covered up, also to downplay the trauma of the Age of Plenty coming to a close.
EDIT 2: it just occured to me that, if Melina is indeed the GEQ, she might have been the one to burn down the Crucible, leaving the door open for Marika to turn it into the Erdtree. This would make this “cycle” more of a recurring theme through hostory, like in Dark Souls, than a metaphysical necessity. Besides, it would strengthen the theory according to which there has been a previous Shattering event with the dragons, leading to a long age of outer gods vying for power until an empyrean stood triumphant along an elden lord.
Love your video ! About the viking's description of Constantinple, do you have the source/reference of it?
Supposedly Vladimir the Great's envoys said this. It is oft repeated among the Greek Orthodox church, though possibly apocryphal.
It seems FromSoft is making this world cyclical like they did Dark Souls.
The Erdtree burned once before, and the Elden Ring was then mended by a former tarnished; a new age bloomed and prospered, until things started going bad again, requiring a new cycle of burning and re-mending
The very first item you are given ingame says that..
"The memory of first grace, which once guided bygone Tarnished to the Lands Between.
Lose all runes and return to last site of grace visited.
It is merely a cycle.
Stand before the Elden Ring. Become the Elden Lord"
In the teaser trailer a burning sky is said to have coincided with the Elden Ring's shattering, this burning sky most likely being caused by the Erdtree being set on fire.
th-cam.com/video/e5wwSxl0atc/w-d-xo.html
time: 1:09
Great catch!
An excellent analysis in most matters concerning the subject matter, but one sticking point I have (admittedly minor in the context of the video) is the source of the wax sealing the various houses within Leyndell. It is possible, as you alluded to, that they were sealed to protect their inhabitants from the ash of a potential first burning of the Erdtree, but there are another pair of plausible scenarios that come to mind.
The first is that the wax itself may be adipocere, more commonly referred to by its moniker of corpse wax; such a disastrous event as the Erdtree burning would likely have proved a nigh-apocalyptic occurrence, suffocating those closest to it and leaving their cadavers to gradually transform into the substance due to the lack of oxygen within the buildings post-burning. The other mentioned scenario is that a plague has afflicted Leyndell, forcing those within to quarantine themselves by sealing their doors with said wax (less likely admittedly due to a lack of evidence supporting such a theory, whether description-based or environmental).
Both scenarios mentioned were originally detailed in Reddit posts I cannot link to due to the current bot crisis, but which can easily be searched for by typing in "Leyndell wax" in your search engine of choice.
I'm going through each of your videos after watching the Farum Azula one, you provide such FASCINATING insights and a perspective I've not heard anywhere else. Thanks for what ya do, it's really interesting and so fun to geek out and savor all of these environmental details!
Your videos are on point man!
The coolest explanation for the wax I’ve seen! So insightful!
Interesting take. Great video! Some people complained about the audio but ehh, I could hear you good enough.
Yeah. You truly understand this lore in a way most people just do not.
When I try to explain that the Erdtree has burned before people act like Im making shit up. Lol. Its so hard to explain to people that the things they arent told are more important and accurate than the things they are explicitly told.
Keep doing these great videos. Please.
which is wild because when you first go to Leyndell there is clearly ash everywhere that has been sorta "cleaned" up, it was pretty clear the reason why is because that tree had burned before. The incantation "Fire's Deadly Sin" even states "the burning of the Erdtree is the first cardinal sin. That is not the domain of mere man" How could it be the first sin if it hadn't occurred already? The prophets aren't seeing a future burning, they are seeing a past burning and putting it forth as prophecy, creating effectively something self fulfilling.
This is top tier Elden Ring lore content!!!
Really enjoy your videos mate, really well made and thought through. Please keep it up!
This makes a lot of sense because even after we burn the tree, most endings will show the tree "intact", albeit changed in some way for some endings.
Furthermore, I'm not sure if this was intentionally alluding to this but throughout the game you can sometimes make out the land features *behind* the erdtree when looking at it from a distance, like it's transparent. It very much feels incorporeal, and doesn't even cast a shadow (though the latter is probably a bit of an artistic choice to make sure the sun properly shines on those areas especially the capital which would've been heavily shaded with a very different aesthetic).
The problem with this theory is... There HAS to be something solid there, behind the golden sheen. There HAS to be. The ash the buries the capital is NOT an illusion. Branches have crushed buildings, bridged gaps, and ash is literally filling giant chasms. If there isn't SOMETHING behind that sheen, more than just the sliver with the doorway, then there'd be nothing to turn to ash.
This theory is proven at least partially wrong, just by the mere existence of the Ashen Capital.
I'm going back and re-watching your videos, and damn they're good.
They're as good as jsf's little things in yharnam series.
In somewhat random order, a couple of comments and opinions.
1) I was pretty skeptical about the idea of the "Erdtree being just an illusion because it was once burnt" but I have to admit, this is a pretty compelling argument. I am not so much persuaded by descriptions about the seed and the tree itself, but Melina's nature as an already burned being and the parallel with the Erdtree is extremely fitting.
2) The Erdtree being burned as result of Melina sacrifice on the orders of Marika fits as well with the idea of the Shattering being a very messy moment as well. At the same time there were people griefing the death of Godwyn, Ranni was doing her thing and Marika shattered the Elden Ring. Burning the Tree might as well have been just a step to be able to destroy the ring, not unlike we have to burn it to access it.
The Erdtree appearing again as a semi-real thing fits the "broken but still there" nature of the Elden Ring and rather than being a seat of power it became a cage for Marika, now an enemy of the Greater Will.
On the other hand, I don't think that the end of the "Age of Plenty" is related with this burning. That happened well before the Shattering IMO. The idea that the reign of Marika was short enough to describe the end of the blessings as "sudden" seems absurd to me. If anything, the end of the blessings is comparable with the end of an older period of her rule.
We know that there has been a change in the way the Golden Order was between the age of Godfrey and Radagon (the primal and warrior heavy ancient period and the modern enlighted and intellectual recent on). Personally I see this Age of Plenty as a cultural period between the two, when Godrey was about to get axed out of the Order and early Radagon.
3) Rather than "Illusion", I would call it a "Phantom".
An Illusion is something only sensorial, used to fool people and/or hide something. In the context of From Soft games (which, at this point, even if separated have mantained some stylistic choices), "Phantoms" are the ways other players manifests, including some NPCs and enemies. Phantoms in this context aren't simply something you see, it's something that can act on the world. Invaders can kill you, summoned allies can kill your enemies.
The "Golden Godfrey" looks exactly like a player would with that shade of gold as colour.
Melina looks slightly different because her nature is more "in-between" I guess, and so does the Tree. They look physical, but they aren't.
There are some point I would argue a bit more about but, well, I am 6 months late to the video so whatever.
I'll just add that...
4) Holy shit nice channel dude, why the uck didn't YT suggest me your videos sooner!
Fantastic points. We may use your "phantom" term in an upcoming video, if you don't mind. Stay tuned, by the way, for more -- we have some good episodes coming soon. And even though you're 6mo late, we're glad to have you.
The only other Tarnished i know that witnessed a maiden toss herself to the fire was Bernal
Hmm...
This channel is awesome. You're the one I've been waiting for a long time to re explore Dark Souls lore. You just get it.
(Smoughtown brought me here and I am very thankful) Amazing video. I never once considered the Erdtree was burnt before. The only part I think I disagree on is the time at which the first burning happened. I think the first burning likely happened before the Shattering. Item descriptions from the Amber Medallion Talismans as well as various others indicate that there was an age of Plenty which ultimately came to an end, and then the Erdtree became more of an object of Faith. Also, there are many real minor Erdtrees around the Lands Betweens that all seem to be around the same size which may mean that they were all planted around the same time.
I feel like the new serpanty flame boss from the dlc might be responsible for this
And the snakes on the gladiators might be a reference to him as well, as he is that hated enemy
Great video! I'm so happy someone else agrees that the Erdtree is an illusion, similar to the illusory Godfrey fight. However, what's the significance of the two Margits NOT being golden, yet still an illusion (possibly along with the Astels, but that may be a different kettle of fish)?
Now, could the Minor Erdtrees be the direct result of the Erdtree's first burning and the tiny golden saplings - from which we gain the golden seeds - be some illusion? Or, if there was an older, corporeal Great Tree that pre-dated the golden Erdtree that we now see, are the corporeal Minor Erdtrees spawned from a burning or destruction of the Great Tree and then the golden saplings the spawn of a previous burning of the golden Erdtree?
5 minutes in and I subscribed and this is my first video. Your research is phenomenal based on your references and your interpretation is beyond what I've seen on other channels in some aspects. I still enjoy MadLuigi's targeted histories, but your videos are a great complement to his and may soon overtake his as my favorites.
The Old finger Maidens in the way to the Mountaintop of the Giants and in the Two Fingers Room, point out that it indeed was burned before, that's why it is a "cardinal sin".
However, what it's bugging me right now, is that Giddeon states (no one trusts Gideon but) That MArika want's the Tarnished to Endure this suffering. Giddeon didn't bat an Eye when the Erdtree was burned but he sure didn't want us to get to the throne. (Even though, Marika said that she would make Godfrey Elden Lord again, and Godfrey was there)
Damn
Gideon says that for only one reason: he doesn't know that Radagon is Marika. Radagon is the one who wants the tarnished to fight forever and he's the one who wants to keep the status quo, with the Erdtree sealed for good.
Seems that his name should be Gideon the almost allknowing.
@@domfar5380 But that makes things worse:
Giddeon says he was presented Marika's own plans by Marika herself, Not Radagon. We know Marika is Radagon but Marika (through Melinas dialogue in the bedchamber) says that Radagon wasn't always Marika, but there would be a time when He would be so. So to the Inner Circle (The Two Finger, The Fundamentalists, Their Kids AND GIDDEON) Marika Isn't Radagon and they would be right about that.
+It seams the translation for this game is really bad so I imagine there's a lot we wo'nt get until someone share's that information
I love coming back to watch all of these videos
I find it weird those arguments below being like : "if the tree is an illusion, why the ashes ? hmmm ?"
Pretty sure the golden-ghost version of Godfrey is also an illusion , yet it can still beat the shit out of you . I think the use of the word "illusion" here does not mean "immaterial" , just "not what it seems"
It's not an illusion, it's Godfrey's manifested grace he's left behind
Dude, Amazing video please keep it up!
Thanks!
Thank you!
For the point on Golden Godfrey- I've heard it said that that boss is actually the Remembrance of Godfrey. That's why you don't get one when you kill it, and why the Remembrance you get in the real fight is of Hoarah Luix.
Why is there so much ash after burning the erdtree in the game, when the current tree is an illusion/ fake ?
Cant wait for Shadow of the Erdtree to confirm this theory
You can confirm it by standing next to Iji at night, it's very clearly an illusion
We need Ancient Dragon Ending with a red Pine Erdtree
I think the only thing I'm missing here is where the TONS of ash come from when you burn the tree if it's an illusion.
Maybe there was just as much or more ash after the shattering of the Elden Ring like when we burn the Erdtree, but the wind carried it away and the remaining inhabitants tried to clean it up. That would explain why there is only ash in corners and less used passageways.
Presumably what remains of the physical part of the erdtree.
I would guess that te burning of the vines of radagon.
sick lore vids man hope to see some more
Love the channel. This video rocks, but the ‘ash’ In lyndell is probably from the rubble from the two defenses, the shattering and time passing. Additionally, the doors are sealed well before we arrive, most likely with amber. I agree, it could be corpse wax, but it seems far more likely there is root resin forming around the base of the erdtree.
With that said, I thing elden ring is a repeating cycle, so having the town sealed to stop the ash is a very enticing concept
Holy sh1t...You are the first One to answer my questions "why the Doors are sealed w wax, why there is so much Ash? And why Melina's hands are already Burned?"... You are a Genius!
Great. Brilliant material. Thank you very much.
while i can't say i really agree with the thesis here, along with some of the points made throughout, i really appreciate a fresh perspective
Well done video, well said. The Erdtree being illusory would also fit thematically with characters having illusory/spirit selves(Godfrey, Mellina, Ranni).
Yooo just realised, what if melina's accomplice in burning the tree was messmer and thats why he got sent to the land of shadow and kept secret even though he's a demigod
I'd say the ash that's in leyndell before you burn the tree is from gransaxs attack
So I’d bet anything (with the dlc coming out in a few months) that Melina’s accomplice was Mesmer the Impaler
I just wanna say, that coming here after watching your last video the difference in audio quality is apparent so much that it hurts my ears 😂
You've come a long way TA, both with audio quality and the information presented, keep up the good word! (subscribed haha)
This would make sense when you consider he possibly being the Gloam Eyed Queen, who burned the Erdtree in the past with the Godskin Apostacy using the Blackflame before being defeated by Malaketh and having the Rune of Death taken and hid away outside time, that explained by the fact we can kill Malaketh in Farum Azula and then feed him death root in Bestial Sanctum til we end the game.
Ranni stole a fragment of destined death which started the shattering. If the gloam eyed queen is Melina then after the tree was burned and being defeated by Malaketh she helped Ranni. The fact that she is the kindling for burning down the erdtree and it can only be burned with blackflame, which is destined death paired with fire, it would make sense that she is still connected to it. I suspect she worked with Ranni in getting the fragment and used it to burn it down the second time too.
Peak lore right here boys! I'm here for it... just wow, this theory is probably the best one I have heard so far.
Interesting theories, although I do agree that the erdtree did burn before the player's time beause there are already piles of ash all over leyndell when we get there and possibly melina was also responsible having burn scar on her arms, but I do not believe that the gold on the erdtree is just an illusion but something like how ancient dragons are gold beneath thier gravel stone scales, the series of events I would propose is after the shattering war and the return of the tarnished, Morgott might have been more cooperative then as the tarnished are supposedly the people of his father, vyke was widely the most favoured champion but on his way to the mountain tops he met shabriri and we know how that went, the next was probably bernahl and he was able to best the fire giant hence the splint on its the left leg, and he did burn the erdtree with melina but they didn't know what to do next, melina lost her body, bernalh lost his faith seeing that burning his maiden only burnt the outer layer of the erdtree and morgott horrified to the burning of the erdtree began his champion hunts and became more hateful towards the tarnished, which also explains when we met melina she wanted to go to leyndell again, because I think she knows she has to burn the erdtree but the last time didn't work because destined death is out of the equation and it was only after leyndell did she keep going on about the lands needs death
I find this very agreeable. It didn't completely work the first time, hence only bits of ash as opposed to the mountain of it once Death was unleashed.
This is great lore, subbed
Hearing your theory that Melina is the one who burns the tree, couldn't that make her the original maiden of Bernahl? Since his armour description? (maybe the hammer) claims that he was destined to be the next elden lord before his maiden cast herself into a fire.
No, seperate characters. Frenzy ending reveals to us that Melina is the gloam eyed queen, not Bernahls maiden. She burnt the erdtree during the war with Marika but lost to Maliketh and had her power sealed away. Melina's mother isnt Marika, the base of the erdtree is far below ground.. where the Nameless Eternal City and Godwyn the Golden lay to rest. Theres so much context missing from the story that anyone could throw a theory at it and itll make sense, thats Fromsoft storytelling for ya
@@jinji_xo Um, it dosnt prove to us she is the gloam eyed queen at all, it just she inherited destined death...
@@jinji_xo Small issue with that one, the Deeproot Depths are specifically said to be the roots of the Greattree, not the Edrtree. It is also stated in, I believe, the deathroot description that the Greattree is worshipped because it's roots are said to intertwine with the roots of the Greattree (not sure if singular or plural, there do seem to be multiple), but they are very much separate objects.
This was amazing, great new cannon I haven't heard before
Holy crap this makes so much sense, it's Annor Londo all over again hahaha
Interesting take ma dude! good video! as for the erd tree being an illusion, we get lore stating the shattering is what severed the roots of the great tree from the erd tree, we see a lot of art work depicting the erd tree in the past before the shattering standing upright when it was still rooted, and it still holds that shining golden glow. The ash could have been from the siege we see in one of those cutscenes depicting the shattering. the golden seeds state they are found at the foot of an illusory tree, but its explained that not everyone can even see grace, so i think seeing the illusory trees with the golden seeds may just be an offshoot of our tarnished connection with grace.
I think you're onto something with this. This would explain all the ash that's in Leyndell and it explains why Melina is "burned and bodiless", you can even seen scars on her hands. This honestly may be what happened.
'We knew not whether we were on heaven or on earth': exactly this! I've long thought that entering Leyndell for the first time is supposed to make you feel like a Viking entering Mickelgard.
Right!
I just "discovered" this channel and I think that the content is not good. Not at all. IT IS FUCKING AMAZING!
Great and amazing work, man. I hope your talent and dedication is being rewarded. I really do.
When you die you leave runes behind. The runes manifest as tiny sprouts.
If something with a titanic ammlunt of runes died, it would make sense that it would leave behind a gigantic marker..
Hey, dont all the erd trees sit right on top of catacombs, graveyards and ancient tombs?
Possible, sure. My initial thought when I was playing was that Mt. Gelmir had previously erupted and covered the area in volcanic ash that was swept aside, and that one of the reasons Liurnia is so overcast is there's still enough of an ash cloud blocking sunlight down there. The Altus Plateau is substantially higher (and the non-elevator route is blocked by a Magma Wyrm then a freaking dragon, after you're told to go that way by a resident of Mt. Gelmir). The problem is that the peak of Gelmir is higher still (hard to tell elevations in this game, but you do go up a ton of ladders before dropping back down).
Your point about some trees needing to burn in order to release seeds got me thinking about the themes of the cyclical nature of the world and the futility of attempting to resist it present in previous FromSoft games. Fire in Elden Ring is heavily associated with death, through the Flame of Ruin and the god-slaying Black Flame of Destined Death. Marika contained the Flame of Ruin within the Forge of the Giants and sealed away Destined Death within Maliketh, thus creating the Golden Order. I suspect this is why Marika is known as “the eternal”, because she removed the fire which leads to death and change. Melina, who is the kindling maiden, also seems to be associated with the Gloam Eyed Queen and Destined Death. Maybe when Ranni stole the Rune of Death, thus unleashing that god-slaying black flame for the first time since the Rune of Death was removed from the Elden Ring, it allowed the Erdtree to be burned.
Maybe Melina was sacrificed to produce the illusory Erdtree.
Maybe the yellow wax sealing the doors is not wax, but erdtree sap? The erdtree is right there to get it from...
I’m not saying this theory is false but if you go way up into the Erd Tree (like almost at the top high) you can find a long, huge branch that is made of real physical bark like the minor Erd Trees.
If we compare the burning of erdtree with the burning of the rainforest in Brazil done by nomadic people, we could interpret the ash of being the root of fertility and that the age of plenty was caused by this fertile ash and only lasted shortly as the nutrition was absorbed by the world.
Why and how TF - this is so low on views!?
This is Myiazaki's repeated theme of illusionary sun of Anor Londo, eh...
This is what I think about the dlc.....we're gonna find the real tree in the land of shadow. It's being hidden by the greater will and was when it took over
So it makes sense that an illusion of a maiden is what burns an illusory tree.