4:27 Hitting at Tony and Chelsea, ladies and gents. Thank you for this! Edit: I genuinely believe they're amazing photographers. It's just that I more appreciate Maarten, Joe Edelman and David Thorp's philosophy in photography as I started with a film camera just like them almost 30 years ago. T&C's philosophy is, and look at the cameras they use: Nikon D850, Canon 5DS R and not even 5DS, and now the a7riv,.... your level of photography is determined by how many MP's your full frame (I stress full frame here) has. They obviously didn't make such a statement, but if you follow their channel, you come to such conclusion very easily.
I really enjoined this commentary. A thought from the crowd here: "Professional" photography is difficult to describe. People don't identify with the job description like they would with office manager. Case in point- I recently went to my 20 year high school reunion and met up with my classmates from 1999. Wow, Time has flown by. When people would ask me of my profession, I would reply that I am a wedding photographer. The rebuttal to my response would be, "..but what do you do full time?", or something to that effect. Other than my clients and my family, I have found that most people respond similarly. I think the reason the term "professional" has lost its meaning is because it's used so much that it doesn't carry the concept it denotes.
Thanks for the kind words, appreciated. Yes, there are too many professionals these days who don't seem to be able to make a living from their profession.
@@MaartenHeilbron Yes! And I think that makes it harder for people to understand what a photographer is; nevermind adding the superlative, "professional". I'm a small business owner. Being a Photographer only makes up a small percentage of what I do. I'm mostly advertising for new clients, meeting with wedding planners and venues, making albums, and the list continues. I would suppose this to be true of anyone making a living without a traditional brick and mortar store. I suppose the my answer to the questions about "Pro" photographers is that photography isn't a profession, it's a trade. There is a difference, even if one presents themselves professionally. Cheers and thank you for our chat!
I think lawyers, MBAs and Pols decimated creative professionals. I have no buisness education or experience and had architectural and design eduction. No family or other connection and lower middle class (I should not just blame that but) and so I ended up Civil Servant even though I have some design and phototgraphic talent. Business, drive and being right personality count more. OK.
Maarten, #1 - it is very impressive the attention you give to respond to all comments. Kudos and thank you. #2 - This format is a nice change. The canoe episodes have a soothing ASMR feel to them, where this format has more energy and really shows your personality. #3 - I am in the market for a camera for stills and video - I fit into the pro-sumer category. I have been researching what to buy since the beginning of the year and as a side note I upgraded my smartphone in the spring. I have found that every time I think I have found a camera that will suit my needs, it isn’t any better image/video capability-wise than my phone. And so I have held off on buying a dedicated camera. I have instead bought accessories to enhance the capabilities of the phone for image making. Conclusion on a dedicated camera: What I have come to find is this - if I want to be a pro-sumer, I need a dedicated camera - that dedicated camera could be a smartphone, but it cannot be the smartphone I carry around in my pocket. I need that for communicating. When I’m out making content, many times I need to be in communication with someone. I cannot do that if I am using the phone to make images. Conclusion on differences between a smartphone camera and a traditional camera: Where I find that the dedicated camera still outshines the smartphone is in terms of - Battery - running the screen a long time for video and stills drains the phone quickly, form factors like viewfinders/tilt-screens - doing run-n-gun video is tough without a monitor, appropriate amount of mass to make steady hand-held shots.
1) Thanks, I appreciate the kind words 2) Noted, but will likely continue to canoe, chat with Paul, review cameras and tackle topics that engage by ADHD brain. 3) If you are looking for my approval, you have it. Use the phone, or two phones. Or buy a camera. All good, as long as it fits your needs and suits your purpose.
I loved this discussion. As an iPhone software developer *and* a photographer who loves the feeling of holding a "proper" camera in my hands, it baffles me that more of the camera companies have not integrated smartphone-level touch interfaces into their camera designs. This stuff has been around for 10+ years at this point and it seems to only recently be starting to make its way into the industry. If a decent Android phone screen can be produced for
@@MaartenHeilbron Perhaps the time is near for some truly disruptional start up to launch? The Android phone was done, a couple of times, without much traction at all, (A Nikon a number of years ago and the Zeiss, which I don't believe has been seen in the wild yet).
Great video, I bought the X-T3 based on your review. Absolutely delighted with it. I am still watching your videos. Your videos are a great resource and great fun to watch.
MAARTEN-- About 9 months ago I left a comment with you about that I was still using my MY d4 FROM 2012 IN RESPONSE TO YOUR REVIEW OF THE z6! your exact words were the D4 Nikon remains a solid performer! Thank you for reminding of that, still using my D4 ! By the way Maarten you have a great sense of humor as well as your dear friend Paul. That's Maarten for every thing! Randy B.
I have a camera with a viewfinder because when I'm outside in daylight I can't make out anything on an LCD screen. I never use the camera on my phone because I hate the weird perspective of the ultra-wide angle lens.
Nice to have a photographic channel where everything doesn't have to be "dope" all of the time. Just straight forward, useful shared information without tons of pixel peeping, fps, MP, pro-res and HDR. Think I'll name you guys the "scope squad" ... it has an honest ring to it! Thanks guys, as an approximate contemporary I'm really enjoying your content.
I have never seen your channel before today. But I just wanted you to know how much I appreciated this video and the laugh I got from the end with the cameras on the ground. I enjoyed the interaction very much. I will be watching more. Thank you again.
@@MaartenHeilbron It is likely my graying hair and friendship with several Canadians? That said, I am delighted to see other polite conversation videos on your channel.
(sigh) I do. Mostly due to what I see via social media apps. Photos and video clips are technically competent due to phone software and hardware, but composition, but framing and proportion leave much to be desired. Perhaps I'm just too old school. Although I've been using digital for decades now I still shoot like I'm using film.
Duane Miyagishima As the phone cameras are so good doesn't that help make most people better photographers? Practice doesn't make absolutely perfect but I am sure it helps. Being a classical photographer is a cumbersome affair. Camera bodies, lenses etcetera. Hoist out of camera bag, choose lens, set up, then shoot. Whereas phone is probably in your hand anyway. With a smartphone, shoot a couple of dozen shots then make a choice in the time it takes to get a "real" camera out. Many more photographers exist because smartphones exist.
@@MaartenHeilbron exactly!! While everyone is a photographer these days, the limitations of viewing photos on smartphones make people think they're amazing. I'd like to refer to the Hybrid Shooter channel where he compared the a7iii to the iPhone 11 and came to a conclusion that they IPhone's pics look amazing until you view them on a 32 inch monitor lol.
Photographs are sold by the gigabyte today. We are so overwhelmed by the quantity of images, both still and video, that individual images have lost their value. What is the length of time an image is typically viewed today? 2 seconds maybe? On a 3" screen? Might as well sell or share images by the pound. It's ironical in a way that, although inundated with imagery, imagery has little real value. Images are a commodity now. What seems to have the value now in the enthusiast demographic is the equipment, not the quality of the image, aside from a few pixel peepers of course. As for the "consumer" demographic, when you go to a beautiful spot, and the photographers are lined up to take their selfies or pictures of their friends to post, the quality of the image is of secondary importance. After all, it will be viewed for a day or two, and then the stream will move on. You get your "likes" of course, which seems to be the point of it all, but the whole process is fleeting. Does anybody even print any more? I'm sure there will always be a relatively small group of enthusiasts, who value quality over quantity, but it is shrinking fast. Camera photography will go the way of film photography, a specialized pursuit for a small group of "purists."
'Wonderful discussion on the state of cameras today! A number of years ago, I shot an entire video documentary just using a now discontinued Flip camera, which recorded in 720p HD. The beauty of that camera is that it had a similar form factor as an I-phone, but it still delivered the results in a horizontal format. I'm with you guys. I hate vertically formatted videos!
Great video that mirrors so many thoughts I’ve had regarding digital photography. Of course this is more eloquent and informed, the result is somehow calming.
Well this year I invested in an entry level DSLR and I am loving the experience but I will get the 11 Pro as well for occasions where I do not want to bring my DSLR with me. Lovely video as always
That’s exactly what I was explaining to someone. Even a D3500/5600 lens combo+ an iPhone 8 gives you the best of both worlds. The only difference is normal people are blown away with phone cameras every few years whereas that just doesn’t happen with a DSLR.
This is such a great conversation ! Taught me a lot about how far photography has come from, and how far it can still go. Maarten, you should do these kind of discussions videos between ol'timers photographers more often. Lots of insights have been shared during these 20 minutes, and it was a joy to watch.
There are NO dedicated cameras that can communicate with the web/internet/cloud the way phones do. On my Note9, all I have to do is push the shutter button, the exposure is correct, color balance is good, AND the photo is automatically stored on the phone and onto Google Photos AUTOMATICALLY WITHOUT ME DOING ANYTHING ELSE. I can send that photo to anyone on the planet connected to the internet (several billion people) instantly and without problem. NO DEDICATED CAMERA CAN DO THAT. And until they do, the dedicated camera market will continue to drop 30% per year to year.
What if your picture takes 50mb of storage? Do you want to automatically upload bunches of them? Your phone's microdot sized sensor produces smaller files, which are still way bigger than you need for the web.
You know, when I first got into photography back in the film days I always thought " Gosh I wish somehow several billion people could see this photo of my lunch right now.."....but I soon degraded my fantasies to wondering why painters had chosen certain subjects and what that meant for a relatively newer medium....
The market has segments. The point and shoot (Brownie, Tourist, Instamatic) segment has combined with the phone. For a time digital cameras caused a market boom. During film people bought a camera and kept it for many years. There was no need to "upgrade" film cameras frequently. As the tech of dedicated cameras is maturing the benefit of upgrades is less, so "serious" camera sales may just decline to the rate they were before digital.
An orange has segments too, but sales of oranges are going strong. While there is no single factor, size, complexity and powerful computing solutions are all contributing to a large shift in imaging device purchases.
I have G.A.S. really bad. Is there a 12 step program for that? I think the convenience of the smartphone is just too much for a traditional camera to compete with for most people who shoot photos. Not only does it produce great pictures but you can use it to stay connected via the web and gasp.. the phone. I have cameras from all of the major brands as like you said they are all great. I did find on my recent trip to Las Vegas I used my phone much than the A7iii or RX100vii I brought with me.
"Why Are Cameras Disappearing?" - They are not. They are just getting smaller and integrated into first-need devices, like phones. A lot more people carry cameras today than ever before.
@@skakdosmer Let's see. How many camera retailers were there in your area ten years ago? Now? Look around in a crowd at any tourist location. How many cameras (not phones) do you see? How many newspapers still have photographers on staff? I could go on, but there's no yellow ribbon around that old oak tree and the writing is on the wall.
@@enLARGE.darkroom The only skills humans (photographers) need to develop is composition and timing. Let the camera handle the details of exposure (which are confusing in the extreme) and focus.
Really enjoyed this. Thanks guys. Personally, I have just returned back to photography after almost 25 years. I recently purchased a Nikon D500 as I started to photograph major pétanque tournaments, where I needed a monster camera. However, I also just acquired a Fuji x100s which I am loving as it is helping me to slow down and really think about each shot instead of being trigger happy. A bit like when I first used a film camera. Much like you guys touched on in the video, we choose cameras which fits our ethos and goal. Great video and I'm definitely subscribing.
Personally, since I have poor eyesight and have a lot of difficulty with the glare off the cell phone screens in bright sunlight, I will always prefer something with a viewfinder. My smartphone takes marvelous photos, but I still prefer the ones coming out of my camera. Thanks guys for a fun discussion.
Let's see how that plays out, I hope that there will always be cameras with viewfinders, but that's not the norm for those taking pictures with phones.
PHONES take photos that are good enough for the average person! That is it folks. I just returned from holiday a few days ago where my wife took photos on her phone side by side with my Nikon and they looked the same as mine on her phone and social media accounts! Naturally when on the computer pixel peeping and editing they are shite!! But for her and 99 percent of the population they are fine.Note I had to lug around a huge bag with lenses and a massive DSLR all day lol) Even printing out holiday books with small size photos in them from average budge printing places like Kmart which everyone uses.. the photos are indistinguishable...!! Now Google Pixel is offering 10x hybrid zoom..... Lugging around that camera gear all day on my holiday with stares from everyone walking around with a huge camera setup was worth it for me, cause I love taking photos but most people... no fricken way.. phone is the go..!
So you're not a purist with photography a few bags of gear are nothing, the phone never has the glass to compete I want my lens when I'm out there and quality 4K video else it is a wasted trip get a decent carry case and it's easy.
Maarten such a great conversation that got so many comments: congratulations! I would also like to join the discussion about traditional cameras declining sales. Here are my 5 cents comments: 1) Reflex used to be Easy to Use. To take a pictures with a Reflex film camera you needed a film, with fixed ASA, a 5 years lasting battery for exposure meter and decide the Shutter Speed and Lens Opening according to subject. Nothing else to take care of. Very often, looking at the focus marks on the LO ring, wasn't even necessary to focus properly. Later the manufacturers introduced zooms with auto focus, removed the focus marks, and started increasing prices and weight. 2) Digital Cameras philosophy. The introduction of the Digital cameras, far from making effective use of micro processors and easy handling, signed an escalation of continue, often marginal, "improved" features to the point that cameras could not be used anymore without reading an instruction manual. Nowadays Fujifilm on X-T3, and I guess other makers as well, gives the opportunity to choose among 5 different ways to focus... 3) Allergy to Reading Manuals. Young generations, since many years, are not used to read manuals anymore. They simply refuse to go through 600 pages manuals to find out how to take a good picture, however camera makers seem not to have realised that and continue in their policy of increase numbers of useless features, therefore increase the number of manual pages that scares potential, young, buyers. 4) Photos or Video. Most cameras are either good at taking photos or videos, mobiles can take both in a decent and easy way, including instant or live sharing even 4K, on socials. 5) Cost Factor. Cameras are expensive comparing with good mobiles that, besides photo and video features, come along with countless apps and can be bought for as little as 299 Dollars. 6) Computational Photography and Model Renewal. Mobiles makers release models year after year taking full use of advances on computational photography and progress on micro processor capacity as well as sensor's electronic stabilisers. Camera makers are obliged to keep same models for about three years in order to recover their costs because they are still based on heavy and expensive glass lenses system and large, and expensive, sensors. 7) Size Matter. Cameras are heavy and bulky, Mobiles are slim, light, with a much bigger screen and can be easily used even by children without having to worry much about if they drop it. 8) Always Ready. Mobiles are always on our pockets, cameras have to be taken along intentionally and, due to their size and weight, are often left at home. Sorry for the lengthy comment that probably will not be read by young followers... Looking for your next review or conversation. All the Best
Thanks for the thoughtful analysis, and yes, those are all good points. However, some of the disadvantages (sunk R&D costs as a reason to extend model life) are also valid for phones and are leveraged from one year to the next as the improvements are always incremental. Some of the advantages can also apply to both. I appreciate the comment.
We’ve had a proper camera for a couple of years, but it wasn’t until I this summer that discovered the joy of a proper camera, and it oddly was connected to letting go of the pixel-peeping; if you put the time required to do manual shooting well, you start understanding that specific camera, then you start getting good, consistent shots, and then you try to get photos that resonate emotionally, and I find that that requires settings that on paper would never work. That’s where the magic and the art is, and that is very hard to do well on a phone
What a good comment - there are many who are too busy upgrading to ever appreciate their camera and acquire the expertise and experience to master its capabilities and put them to service for their images. Thanks for commenting.
New phone cameras are pretty amazing, but I completely agree about how difficult it is to keep the pictures and videos from phones organized. It's so much easier when you can pop an SD card out of the camera and import straight to Lightroom. Thanks for an interesting discussion.
I really appreciated the exchange of thoughts and especially the joke in the end. I laughed out loud :D To answer the question in a very crude manner: due to photography inflation. It started with digital photography and nowadays everyone is a photographer. Then again this enables new opportunities for camera manufacturers and it's up to them to ignore these or not.
Fabulous.... Is it just me or does anyone else just want a digital camera with simple analogue dials on the top plate that gives me good old fashioned shutter, aperture and ISO? Thanks for your time and consideration with this video....do some more 🙏
I much enjoyed your conversation! It is true that most modern cameras do most things, but, as you suggest, people continue buying cameras because they evolve in skill and ambition. Maybe it is time for an update on the market? I am a hobbyist currently on a 6-month waiting list for a $6000 camera that I purchased on launch day. This anecdotal evidence suggests Leica is not in trouble. :)
Thanks. Of course, no-one is in trouble if their expectations are in line with the market. The issue is that many companies had their expectations raised during the compact camera (pre-mobile phone) era and can't adjust. I also think that some companies (and their investors) may have unrealistic growth expectations.
I have bought and sold over 30 cameras in the last 5 years and have learned a lot. But it does seem to me that the impending demise is coming on quicker than anyone wants to admit and that camera manufacturers are releasing more and more cameras to suck up every last penny before it happens. I used to do high end scanning for fashion photographers and just after 9/11 digital photography came in like a tornado and swept up all my work almost overnight. There are few TH-camrs discussing this so I applaud you for touching on this very delicate subject. On another note, I think that the iPhone Pro11 is an amazing device but suffers from rather major lens flare due to maybe a missing coating on the lenses. All of this will only get better but the creative instinct will survive no matter what happens and yet some of us will still reflect on “the good old days”.
Interesting subject. I've always found all technology pretty exciting, in some way or another. Maybe camera manufactures will need to incorporate some aspect of another, more commonly accepted tech, to stay afloat? I mean, WiFi, Bluetooth, NFC, HDMI... those "minor" things helped, for awhile. Processors will get faster & smaller, software will become (hopefully) more intelligent. Could lenses become more "intelligent"? Indestructibility, and reliability? Not a very long term business model. Maybe data captured via phone sensors will render the stand-alone camera obsolete? Just thinking out loud.
I think the excess of technology, automation, and computational photography that we have in today's photography world is a main reason why so many young people are adopting analog photography instead. They enjoy the Hands-On, more manual, more control aspect of analog photography, don't need to spend an excessive amount of time editing as each film stock is the edit and brings us back to the foundation of Photography which is writing light rather than today computational photography. Personally I will always have a camera. I started out with a cell phone. But once I moved up to a camera, a proper camera, I never look back and never will. Analog brings us back to the foundation of photography which is writing light to a negative rather than today's computational photography. Personally I will always have a camera. I started out with a cell phone. But once I moved up to a camera, a proper camera, I never looked back and never will. Analog will also always have a place in my heart for the instant aesthetics and the user experience and in terms of digital photography that's why I adopted Fuji because it gave me some analog features but allowed me to take advantage of modern technology at the same time. To me cell phones will never be a proper substitute to passionate photographers and hobbyists. They are just practical for the everyday person who already spent $1,000 on their phone and do not want to spend more money buying a second device and carry it with them and actually learn how to shoot. But for the passionate photography hobbyists in my mind they will always want a camera.
While it's more than a few, I don't think it's "so many". The majority continue to use their phones. In my experience, people who say "never" often end up changing their mind when circumstances change. Thanks for your note.
Enjoyed the conversation: I purchased the cannon g7x mark 2 after your review of it and have been really happy with it. I also recently upgraded my Iphone to the 11 pro max, and in all honesty was hoping that it would replace my Cannon, but not close! The G7X still excels because the Iphone 11 still remains in my pocket for important shots, which is practically all of my shots! The Cannon blows away the Iphone in any forms of low light conditions so I say why bother with the iphone most of the time, yet the iphone has a good camera but not good enough to replace my cannon.
Such a wonderfull conversation that just made me suscribe. I don't use a phone for pictures but my wife mainly does . Every times she uses one of my too many cameras , it is for the long lens ( 300mm equivalent or more ) with close-up capacities . Her favorite is my G85 with 100-300mm mkII that focuses down to 5 feet for dragonflies or birds in flight . My first point is that she ads the use of a 'real' camera for specifics subjects that she likes a lot and where her nice phone ( Huawei p30 pro ) just can't get ... and it does not 'convert' her away from it since she stills go for the phone for everything else even if i have several other lenses . My second point is that some phones having several build-in lenses , while not having the range and quality of systems, are pushing away further the appeal of cameras from phone users. A mather of convenience and being good enough.
@@MaartenHeilbron Sure. Specific gear reviews are good and while different, there are always several of them when a maintream product is out. On the other end , a 'conversation' like this one is more unique and brings a larger perspective . Let's have some more of it in your 'the expert' section.
Have a DSLR plus a bag full of lenses.But now my Cannon G16 is the only camera i take every were with me.Maybe because I'm getting old and always had the wrong lens on when a shot i wanted came into view.I also like the view finder on the G16 helps to keep it steady.Thank you for the video, keep up the good work!
Really enjoyed this.. More please! Mobile phone camera technology is still really in its infancy. Who knows what they’ll be capable of in 10 or 20 years time. Will definitely have an impact on camera sales. As was said.. you generally have your phone with you.
Surely Pentax are not ending camera production? The only news I've heard is that Sigma are ending lenses with the Pentax mount, so ending Sigma Pentax-fitting lens sales. Perhaps you may like to check these points?
I find myself shooting auto most of the time because I simply have trouble understanding how to use the advanced features on my cameras. To me, the final results while shooting in auto mode are pretty much outstanding. To comment on one of your points, a dedicated high quality b&w camera would be awesome. Another issue.....I rarely use the view finder on my cameras. I guess I am just used to using a larger screen like on my iPhone. Also, I recently shot a few images with the new Apple iPhone 11 plus at our local Apple store, and it was amazing. It really competes with, and in some instance far exceeds, many dedicated point and shoot cameras. Point and shoot camera manufacturers must cringe whenever Apple announces a new phone with an upgraded camera.
I wouldn't worry about shooting in auto, unless you felt that auto wasn't doing what you needed. You've bought a tool with advanced technology - take advantage of it.
Enjoyed this conversation, made me wonder why I would want to "upgrade" from having a phone and my Canon G5X that I carry all the time. Think there is no real need as both can make the shot I want. The G5X even has a viewfinder 🤗
Maarten, most popular Japanese and European/American/Soviet camera brands during our days have disappeared. Our new "toy" the mobile has replaced both the landline telephone and yes, the camera. Some years back few owned cameras. Now most people have cameras in their mobiles.
Oh I SO AGREE with you about video shooting with a phone! I'm so irritated by vertical video that I just can't watch it! When we go to the movies, we would't want a "pillbox" shaped screen. The films with the widest aspect ratios are the most epic and most enjoyable! When I see someone shooting a video vertically, I attribute that to laziness and a lack of imagination and thought. When I shoot video, I'm thinking about how it is going to look when played back on a typical 16x9 screen! I will even shoot most of my stills in landscape orientation for the same reasons. I like to edit home movies of our adventures and burn them to Blu Ray. Naturally I want to make use of as much screen real estate as I can. I'm profoundly frustrated that so many folks do not get this! As you pointed out Maarten: our eyes are oriented horizontally! Good points made about some important differences between a camera phone and a DSLR. Sensor size still matters! I still have my Nikon D500 and it still has tricks that no cell phone camera has! Nice, thoughtful musings about the industry! I enjoyed watching!
Hey Maarten, just wanted to let you know that I really enjoy your videos. thanks for making them! also a bit of nitpicking: the audio was slightly off in this video. it sounds slightly metallic or "doubled" like the audiotracks from the mics arent synced up 100%. dont worry, Its bearable.. It just came to my notice. :)
I think the sweet spot is the APSC format like the A6000 series which make a light enough package with good low light performance. Later on we will see improvement in sensors which will make APSC reaching full frame performances. Fuji is trying hard on that with sony sensors...and trying to put as well some smatphone world into their new incoming cameras (XA7).
Digital photography brought on a huge increase in camera sales as companies developed inexpensive and easy to use point-and-shoot cameras that really catered to the masses who were looking for something to take a casual photo with (Vacations, birthdays, etc). This is the market that the phone makers have now taken away from the traditional camera companies. I believe that any serious enthusiast will continue to use a real camera because of the advantages it offers over the control of the photos you take (ie lens selection, RAW files for editing, Dynamic Range, etc.) This has always been a smaller segment of the overall market and I can't foresee the phone makers being able to deliver what this group of photographers is looking for.
A lot of truths....thank you Siskel and Ebert. For me.... I not spending anymore money until the day comes with something truly groundbreaking and that has not happened in any camera; cellphone/mirrorless/DSLR or otherwise for a LONG TIME.
Well as prices are dropping for DSLR's since the Mirrorless models came on the scene, people are buying them up on ebay and watching Nikon and Canon cameras getting a fair amount of interest from shoppers, so there's still a market for them, these are, I'm guessing, enthusiasts, beginners and pro's. That thrill of catching a good sharp well exposed photo at an airshow, landscapes or street photography will, I believe, keep 'The Camera' alive :)
I don't think that was the rationale for lowering prices of DSLR models, both Nikon and Canon have always had very reasonable entry level prices - usually better bargains than similar mirrorless cameras. While there's a thrill, it seems to appeal to fewer and fewer people.
Great discussion. I like the conversational format (not to mention your backlight halos). A couple of comments. First, I think you're right: today's cameras are so capable that by and large, the new models are just putting a little icing on the cake. But as for cellphones taking over -- they're great for snapshots, wedding and party photos, and Instagram shots. But I feel silly trying to take an action photo with one in bright sunlight. For anything demanding -- in fact, anything that demands a zoom -- I want a camera with a viewfinder, and one that feels good in my hand. I confess I'm a grizzled veteran (though I did shave today), but I think a lot of younger shooters would say the same.
Thank you. It's always nice to hear from a respected colleague. While I completely agree with you, and will likely continue to be a camera fan, I wonder if a new generation of photographers will fail to see those advantages and learn to adapt to what we consider lesser devices.
Good vid. I admire you for responding to so many comments. Although I'm not sure if the ROI is very good. Mobile phone cameras are compressing reality. Mobile phone cameras are good enough to do most things well. This is compressing the definition of Professional photography to the point where it's not relevant. Pro photographer used to be a word that was applied to a wide variety of photo jobs but now it's just relevant to high end photo jobs that are so complicated that a phone can't do well. As a result, there are very few pro photographer jobs so why would you need a professional camera. Therefore camera manufacturers will reduce the cameras they make. Here's the biggest concern. Photography is being compressed by technology to the point where photography will cease to exist. The goal of mobile phone manufacturers is to use the camera module to make money, not images. The camera module is there to facilitate the software apps that collect data...which is then sold. This data is more valuable than oil or gold. The data that is collected enables corporations to sell people products and services. Usually that they don't need or want. The sinister aspect is that mobile phones help corporations and governments to monitor and control people. Mobile phones reveal everything about us. Even our heart rate. Facial recognition software is used by many authoritarian regimes to monitor and punish those who oppose the regime. The camera on a cell phone is not made for photography...it's made to facilitate business, decrease personal power, and centralize power into the hands of a few. The question is whether or not, this is a bad thing. Technology has been organically moving in this direction for a long time. We now have Neural Link technology on the horizon where all our brains will be wired together so that we will essentially be one person with 8 billion bodies. Can you have a sense of identity in a world like this? Or is one even necessary? Right now there are billions of pictures on the internet. But from a distance they all look so much alike...they're all so bland and forgettable...that you would think they were taken by one person. If you look at humanity from a distance the similarities are striking. We share so many characteristics and are so predictable, that you can see why corporations treat us like cattle in a pen. Maybe there is no individuality. Maybe we all share the same consciousness. Maybe this was always the Matrix...and technology is just revealing the truth. The mobile phone will soon be replaced by Neural Link, or a similar technology, and this will kill photography dead. Along with many other aspects of reality that we thought were real, but were actually just illusions. And then the world will be like living in a dream, or a nightmare.
I don't respond to comments for ROI, I respond to understand what my friends are thinking and to interact with them. After accusing phone manufactures of being in it for the money, do you imagine that the camera manufacturers are somehow altruistic? I don't think they're doing it for the good of person-kind either. If you think mobile phones are a dangerous invasion of privacy, let me introduce you to a credit card and a computer. However, we continue to adopt these devices willingly. Wow, that went deep fast, thanks for provoking some interesting thoughts, always appreciated.
Leica sales are increasing year over year and are more profitable . The New Q2 is backordered and there is a long waiting list, I had to wait 3 months in Canada, the old Q was backordered and required a waiting list from 2015 through 2018. They are doing fine.
Great discussion. I'm relatively new to your channel, but have already been provided invaluable information on this hobby-- In fact, your excellent review on the a6300 is what pushed me over the edge to get my own sample recently, so thanks! On the subject of quality vs content that you two touched on: Obviously, it is the content of any media that speaks to our souls, not the quality of said content. Photography in general should first and foremost be about capturing a story. That a camera can do something so human as to help tell a story is amazing considering cameras only have a passing resemblance to the human eye. Some exceptions exist, however, in which the quality of a photograph informs the story to such a degree, that low resolution examples of said photograph simply don't get the story across. The best example I can think of is the "Afghan Girl" National Geographic photo. If you lose the stunning detail of the eyes, you lose the story. As the resolution of this particular photo increases, the story the photograph tells gets more compelling.
I haven't seen the video, but when I read the title "Why are cameras disappearing?", I immediately went to check my camera bag and luckily I found that my camera was still there. Mine has not dissappeared yet!
Personally I also like to lean in and look at the brushstrokes after taking in a painting, just for that full 'Cameron stares harder and harder at the Georges Seurat painting' in Ferris Bueller's Day Off moment., but I completely , completely see your point. Kind of why I like to print small with a big passepartout. It was a relevelation to me after seeing all those Magnum prints in galleries made really small, with so much impact. You really don't need to do big prints.
Hi Maarten, I’m one of the weirdos who film exclusively with Super8. It is true that modern equipment vastly exceeds the quality of Super8, but I agree with the statement that content and composition always trump quality. For me, I take modern motorsport and make it look, sound, and feel like a racing film found in a shoebox from the 1970s. While it could be possible to replicate this look digitally, remaining true to the analog process consistently delivers perfectly imperfect results with no feeling of being disingenuous. Have a quick watch of one of my videos and it will all make sense!
Some new features are valuable, such as 4k video (and soon 8k video), better image stabilization, better low light operation, etc. Phones with their 2 x nothing lenses can't compete with a camera. My current camera is a Lumix G85.
We were not, as you may have realized, talking about cameras available today - but we were thinking ahead into the future as we watch the market transition away from traditional cameras. The features you list may not be comparable, but they likely aren't a significant consideration for many.
I'm still waiting for either phones to get larger full frame sensors (impractical) or for my DSLR to have Android OS and a SIM card (slightly more practical). Great discussion video!
I have always had camera or video camera. I have 4 kids and 5 grandkids. Only our eldest daughter ever bought a camera. One son and one granddaughter have made good use of my hand me down Canon DSLR cameras. They enjoy the family photos I take and show on the big screen TV'S. They take pictures on phone's to display on phone's and that's good enough for them. Some of their compositions are Magnificent so I don't push cameras. Time and money is in short supply for them so they choose simple easy and fast and very sharable.
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I loved the comment "People remember some feature that their camera has, but can't figure out how to do it" ! HOW TRUE !
Sad, but true. Thanks for commenting.
My brother asked me why do I carry around that bulky camera, when my phone was in my pocket. Well, my phone was in my pocket. 😆
Be careful not to sit on it then, the screen might crack.
I photograph flowers with a bridge camera because my cellphone camera punches up the color to unrealistic levels.
@@slick3129 That can be a problem, although I understand many people like that.
If it's not apparent, how is it far better? That doesn't make sense to me.
4:27
Hitting at Tony and Chelsea, ladies and gents.
Thank you for this!
Edit: I genuinely believe they're amazing photographers. It's just that I more appreciate Maarten, Joe Edelman and David Thorp's philosophy in photography as I started with a film camera just like them almost 30 years ago.
T&C's philosophy is, and look at the cameras they use: Nikon D850, Canon 5DS R and not even 5DS, and now the a7riv,.... your level of photography is determined by how many MP's your full frame (I stress full frame here) has. They obviously didn't make such a statement, but if you follow their channel, you come to such conclusion very easily.
Always our pleasure. Nice to have someone to decode our snide quips. Can we have a show of hands on that?
@@MaartenHeilbron 🖐🏻
Prove it!
@@dadasesa4108 No need really.
Matt Brum - EXCELLENT.
There is a brand of toilet paper dispenser in the UK that is designated “pro”. I’ll just leave that there.
I know some who could use that.
I really enjoined this commentary. A thought from the crowd here:
"Professional" photography is difficult to describe. People don't identify with the job description like they would with office manager. Case in point- I recently went to my 20 year high school reunion and met up with my classmates from 1999. Wow, Time has flown by. When people would ask me of my profession, I would reply that I am a wedding photographer. The rebuttal to my response would be, "..but what do you do full time?", or something to that effect. Other than my clients and my family, I have found that most people respond similarly. I think the reason the term "professional" has lost its meaning is because it's used so much that it doesn't carry the concept it denotes.
Thanks for the kind words, appreciated. Yes, there are too many professionals these days who don't seem to be able to make a living from their profession.
@@MaartenHeilbron Yes! And I think that makes it harder for people to understand what a photographer is; nevermind adding the superlative, "professional". I'm a small business owner. Being a Photographer only makes up a small percentage of what I do. I'm mostly advertising for new clients, meeting with wedding planners and venues, making albums, and the list continues. I would suppose this to be true of anyone making a living without a traditional brick and mortar store.
I suppose the my answer to the questions about "Pro" photographers is that photography isn't a profession, it's a trade. There is a difference, even if one presents themselves professionally.
Cheers and thank you for our chat!
@@RobertHamm Thanks, always nice to exchange ideas with my viewers, it's part of what makes this such fun.
I think lawyers, MBAs and Pols decimated creative professionals. I have no buisness education or experience and had architectural and design eduction. No family or other connection and lower middle class (I should not just blame that but) and so I ended up Civil Servant even though I have some design and phototgraphic talent. Business, drive and being right personality count more. OK.
Maarten,
#1 - it is very impressive the attention you give to respond to all comments. Kudos and thank you.
#2 - This format is a nice change. The canoe episodes have a soothing ASMR feel to them, where this format has more energy and really shows your personality.
#3 - I am in the market for a camera for stills and video - I fit into the pro-sumer category. I have been researching what to buy since the beginning of the year and as a side note I upgraded my smartphone in the spring. I have found that every time I think I have found a camera that will suit my needs, it isn’t any better image/video capability-wise than my phone. And so I have held off on buying a dedicated camera. I have instead bought accessories to enhance the capabilities of the phone for image making.
Conclusion on a dedicated camera:
What I have come to find is this - if I want to be a pro-sumer, I need a dedicated camera - that dedicated camera could be a smartphone, but it cannot be the smartphone I carry around in my pocket. I need that for communicating. When I’m out making content, many times I need to be in communication with someone. I cannot do that if I am using the phone to make images.
Conclusion on differences between a smartphone camera and a traditional camera:
Where I find that the dedicated camera still outshines the smartphone is in terms of - Battery - running the screen a long time for video and stills drains the phone quickly, form factors like viewfinders/tilt-screens - doing run-n-gun video is tough without a monitor, appropriate amount of mass to make steady hand-held shots.
1) Thanks, I appreciate the kind words
2) Noted, but will likely continue to canoe, chat with Paul, review cameras and tackle topics that engage by ADHD brain.
3) If you are looking for my approval, you have it. Use the phone, or two phones. Or buy a camera. All good, as long as it fits your needs and suits your purpose.
I loved this discussion. As an iPhone software developer *and* a photographer who loves the feeling of holding a "proper" camera in my hands, it baffles me that more of the camera companies have not integrated smartphone-level touch interfaces into their camera designs. This stuff has been around for 10+ years at this point and it seems to only recently be starting to make its way into the industry. If a decent Android phone screen can be produced for
I look forward to reviewing your camera when it's released. A 2-3 week loan should be sufficient for me.
Christopher Griffith Totally agree. And full frame mirrorless cameras lenses are too large.
Sounds kinda like that zeiss zx1. It was announced like a year ago, but still hasn't released. I don't know what happened to it.
Samsung did this a few years back. Sales didn’t happen.
@@MaartenHeilbron Perhaps the time is near for some truly disruptional start up to launch? The Android phone was done, a couple of times, without much traction at all, (A Nikon a number of years ago and the Zeiss, which I don't believe has been seen in the wild yet).
Great video, I bought the X-T3 based on your review. Absolutely delighted with it. I am still watching your videos. Your videos are a great resource and great fun to watch.
Thanks, always nice to hear from a viewer who appreciates my videos.
Great conversation, enjoyed your banter, mature men are so cool!
That's very kind. Thanks for the reminder to wear a heavier jacket next time.
@@MaartenHeilbron I saw what you did there... I just saw two guys my age on a park bench being .... chill.
@@lylestavast7652 We'll try not to be so chill next time.
You mean uninformed mature men
@@stevep927 Thanks, we appreciate your kind words.
MAARTEN-- About 9 months ago I left a comment with you about that I was still using my MY d4 FROM 2012 IN RESPONSE TO YOUR REVIEW OF THE z6! your exact words were the D4 Nikon remains a solid performer! Thank you for reminding of that, still using my D4 ! By the way Maarten you have a great sense of humor as well as your dear friend Paul. That's Maarten for every thing! Randy B.
I am always happy to help, and to provide sensible advice. I'm also thankful that you took the time to comment and your kind words.
I have a camera with a viewfinder because when I'm outside in daylight I can't make out anything on an LCD screen.
I never use the camera on my phone because I hate the weird perspective of the ultra-wide angle lens.
Thanks, good to know.
Nice to have a photographic channel where everything doesn't have to be "dope" all of the time.
Just straight forward, useful shared information without tons of pixel peeping, fps, MP, pro-res and HDR.
Think I'll name you guys the "scope squad" ... it has an honest ring to it!
Thanks guys, as an approximate contemporary I'm really enjoying your content.
hehe, we know where the dopes are. And it's always a pleasure to read kind words from our viewers.
Great, I liked the discussion made me think deeper about the future of photography and camera technology 😀👍🏼
I like the sound of that - thanks for the kind words.
I have never seen your channel before today. But I just wanted you to know how much I appreciated this video and the laugh I got from the end with the cameras on the ground. I enjoyed the interaction very much. I will be watching more. Thank you again.
Thanks, always nice to hear from a viewer who gets our sense of humour and appreciates my videos.
@@MaartenHeilbron It is likely my graying hair and friendship with several Canadians? That said, I am delighted to see other polite conversation videos on your channel.
@@patricklgreen Glad to have you in our demographic. Thanks for the kind words.
I love tech, but I still forget how to do certain things with my camera.
Hopefully that doesn't include taking photos.
This is now my new favorite channel on TH-cam 😊
Thanks. Unfortunately, Paul and I seem to have run out of ideas.
The rise of "phone" photography is also due to a decline in discriminating viewing. "Everyone" is a photographer seeking instant gratification.
Do you really think so? Isn't it making people more discriminating as they realize how difficult it is to make photographs that look good?
(sigh) I do. Mostly due to what I see via social media apps. Photos and video clips are technically competent due to phone software and hardware, but composition, but framing and proportion leave much to be desired. Perhaps I'm just too old school. Although I've been using digital for decades now I still shoot like I'm using film.
Duane Miyagishima
As the phone cameras are so good doesn't that help make most people better photographers? Practice doesn't make absolutely perfect but I am sure it helps. Being a classical photographer is a cumbersome affair. Camera bodies, lenses etcetera. Hoist out of camera bag, choose lens, set up, then shoot. Whereas phone is probably in your hand anyway. With a smartphone, shoot a couple of dozen shots then make a choice in the time it takes to get a "real" camera out. Many more photographers exist because smartphones exist.
@@MaartenHeilbron exactly!! While everyone is a photographer these days, the limitations of viewing photos on smartphones make people think they're amazing. I'd like to refer to the Hybrid Shooter channel where he compared the a7iii to the iPhone 11 and came to a conclusion that they IPhone's pics look amazing until you view them on a 32 inch monitor lol.
Photographs are sold by the gigabyte today. We are so overwhelmed by the quantity of images, both still and video, that individual images have lost their value. What is the length of time an image is typically viewed today? 2 seconds maybe? On a 3" screen? Might as well sell or share images by the pound. It's ironical in a way that, although inundated with imagery, imagery has little real value. Images are a commodity now. What seems to have the value now in the enthusiast demographic is the equipment, not the quality of the image, aside from a few pixel peepers of course. As for the "consumer" demographic, when you go to a beautiful spot, and the photographers are lined up to take their selfies or pictures of their friends to post, the quality of the image is of secondary importance. After all, it will be viewed for a day or two, and then the stream will move on. You get your "likes" of course, which seems to be the point of it all, but the whole process is fleeting. Does anybody even print any more? I'm sure there will always be a relatively small group of enthusiasts, who value quality over quantity, but it is shrinking fast. Camera photography will go the way of film photography, a specialized pursuit for a small group of "purists."
'Wonderful discussion on the state of cameras today! A number of years ago, I shot an entire video documentary just using a now discontinued Flip camera, which recorded in 720p HD. The beauty of that camera is that it had a similar form factor as an I-phone, but it still delivered the results in a horizontal format. I'm with you guys. I hate vertically formatted videos!
Thanks, we appreciate your kind words. I always wondering why Flip did not continue as a successful brand - it was certainly a well-liked product.
I use a Panasonic G9, a very underrated camera 👍🏻
There are many underrated cameras because there are just too many of them. Not very model gets the attention it should.
@@MaartenHeilbron 👍🏻
i have a gh5 gx8 and a gh2 guess which one i like the best, the oldest gh2
@@stevemann6082 That's what I was going to guess!!!
@@MaartenHeilbron gh2 can be hacked to 150mbits/sec, I use flow motion on it. Don't use the auto focus it's no good
Peter is always entertaining to watch. Random Camera Farts? And the two of you have the best balance in your conversation.
Yes, Paul's videos are always entertaining. And thanks for your kind words.
Liked this back and forth banter. More please!
Thanks, I'm not sure we need the encouragement, but we'll plan another one soon.
Great video that mirrors so many thoughts I’ve had regarding digital photography. Of course this is more eloquent and informed, the result is somehow calming.
A pleasure to read your kind words, thanks for watching.
Well this year I invested in an entry level DSLR and I am loving the experience but I will get the 11 Pro as well for occasions where I do not want to bring my DSLR with me. Lovely video as always
Best of both worlds? Thanks for the kind words.
That’s exactly what I was explaining to someone. Even a D3500/5600 lens combo+ an iPhone 8 gives you the best of both worlds. The only difference is normal people are blown away with phone cameras every few years whereas that just doesn’t happen with a DSLR.
@@MrAyybee2cold I'm worried about any device that blows people away.
This is such a great conversation !
Taught me a lot about how far photography has come from, and how far it can still go.
Maarten, you should do these kind of discussions videos between ol'timers photographers more often. Lots of insights have been shared during these 20 minutes, and it was a joy to watch.
A pleasure to know that viewers appreciate our videos and conversations. Request granted, we're planing to record another one soon.
@@MaartenHeilbron Yay !
Looking forward to it !
There are NO dedicated cameras that can communicate with the web/internet/cloud the way phones do. On my Note9, all I have to do is push the shutter button, the exposure is correct, color balance is good, AND the photo is automatically stored on the phone and onto Google Photos AUTOMATICALLY WITHOUT ME DOING ANYTHING ELSE. I can send that photo to anyone on the planet connected to the internet (several billion people) instantly and without problem. NO DEDICATED CAMERA CAN DO THAT. And until they do, the dedicated camera market will continue to drop 30% per year to year.
I'm pretty sure that's not the only issue, but it's a valid one.
What if your picture takes 50mb of storage? Do you want to automatically upload bunches of them? Your phone's microdot sized sensor produces smaller files, which are still way bigger than you need for the web.
@@stevek8829 Bandwidth and storage are so cheap now that size isn't an issue. Make it BIG!!!
You know, when I first got into photography back in the film days I always thought " Gosh I wish somehow several billion people could see this photo of my lunch right now.."....but I soon degraded my fantasies to wondering why painters had chosen certain subjects and what that meant for a relatively newer medium....
The market has segments. The point and shoot (Brownie, Tourist, Instamatic) segment has combined with the phone. For a time digital cameras caused a market boom. During film people bought a camera and kept it for many years. There was no need to "upgrade" film cameras frequently. As the tech of dedicated cameras is maturing the benefit of upgrades is less, so "serious" camera sales may just decline to the rate they were before digital.
An orange has segments too, but sales of oranges are going strong.
While there is no single factor, size, complexity and powerful computing solutions are all contributing to a large shift in imaging device purchases.
The Sigma fp is one of the most exciting cameras to come out in years
Always nice to know what excites my viewers.
Keep me posted.
Wonderful inane banter that somehow makes me feel better.
That makes me feel very special, thanks!
I have G.A.S. really bad. Is there a 12 step program for that? I think the convenience of the smartphone is just too much for a traditional camera to compete with for most people who shoot photos. Not only does it produce great pictures but you can use it to stay connected via the web and gasp.. the phone. I have cameras from all of the major brands as like you said they are all great. I did find on my recent trip to Las Vegas I used my phone much than the A7iii or RX100vii I brought with me.
There might be a 12 step program, but best to consult a medical professional first.
Thanks for commenting.
@ I daresay that's a niche that hasn't been sufficiently exploited. Thanks for the tip.
I love my Olympus EM1-Markii. Light, small, stabilised, weather resistant... made me back to photography for the pleasure of it.
It's always nice to hear from a photographer who's found a camera that meets their needs. Thanks for commenting.
It is such a nice camera
I can't wait until they put a 800mm F5.6 lens in a smartphone, saving 12k and 8 pounds !!!
By the time it happens we won't be impressed.
YOU MAY WAIT AWHILE !!!
@@deathvalley1592 While we're waiting, please have your keyboard fixed. The caps lock key is stuck!
It won't fit in to a phone that is 5mm thick.
@@MaartenHeilbron By the time it happens you won't be living
That 20min mark joke was outstanding and made it all worthwhile. Love the passion and energy in this banter fest.
That was very kind of you, always nice to hear from a viewer who shares our values and sense of humour.
"Why Are Cameras Disappearing?" - They are not. They are just getting smaller and integrated into first-need devices, like phones. A lot more people carry cameras today than ever before.
Apparently you have not seen recent sales reports. We were, as you were likely aware, speaking of dedicated photographic devices.
That's the problem. You defined "camera" in such a way that it supported your thesis.
@@mountainhobo That's what we do.
I don’t agree that it supported the thesis. Cameras are not disappearing.
@@skakdosmer Let's see. How many camera retailers were there in your area ten years ago? Now? Look around in a crowd at any tourist location. How many cameras (not phones) do you see? How many newspapers still have photographers on staff? I could go on, but there's no yellow ribbon around that old oak tree and the writing is on the wall.
I now a huge fan of your informative channel . It’s like no other “ no bulls…t sponsored sales pitches .
I appreciate the kind words, always nice to hear from someone who agrees with my approach.
I personally think cell phones are improving at a dramatic rate . And the camera industry has a lot to consider not only in price but technology.
Cameras are also improving, however they seem to have different priorities.
I have personally made videos with cell phones and some of the output are close am but of a amateur still but wow
hell, I still use film cameras and they please me as much as they ever did.
Excellent, thanks for reminding us that you are still out there.
Use a film camera and develop your skill and enjoyment, instead of using a digital whizzbang that claims to do it all for you.
@@enLARGE.darkroom The only skills humans (photographers) need to develop is composition and timing. Let the camera handle the details of exposure (which are confusing in the extreme) and focus.
@Bobby Brady Very glad you've found the solution to your headaches, thanks for the suggestion.
Really enjoyed this. Thanks guys. Personally, I have just returned back to photography after almost 25 years. I recently purchased a Nikon D500 as I started to photograph major pétanque tournaments, where I needed a monster camera. However, I also just acquired a Fuji x100s which I am loving as it is helping me to slow down and really think about each shot instead of being trigger happy. A bit like when I first used a film camera. Much like you guys touched on in the video, we choose cameras which fits our ethos and goal. Great video and I'm definitely subscribing.
Always nice to hear from an appreciative viewer. I appreciate the kind words, and the subscription.
This is what I am always saying, well Ive said that cameras been good since around 2012 - after that it is just incremental stuff
Thanks for allowing us to sing your song.
Personally, since I have poor eyesight and have a lot of difficulty with the glare off the cell phone screens in bright sunlight, I will always prefer something with a viewfinder. My smartphone takes marvelous photos, but I still prefer the ones coming out of my camera. Thanks guys for a fun discussion.
Let's see how that plays out, I hope that there will always be cameras with viewfinders, but that's not the norm for those taking pictures with phones.
PHONES take photos that are good enough for the average person! That is it folks. I just returned from holiday a few days ago where my wife took photos on her phone side by side with my Nikon and they looked the same as mine on her phone and social media accounts! Naturally when on the computer pixel peeping and editing they are shite!! But for her and 99 percent of the population they are fine.Note I had to lug around a huge bag with lenses and a massive DSLR all day lol) Even printing out holiday books with small size photos in them from average budge printing places like Kmart which everyone uses.. the photos are indistinguishable...!! Now Google Pixel is offering 10x hybrid zoom..... Lugging around that camera gear all day on my holiday with stares from everyone walking around with a huge camera setup was worth it for me, cause I love taking photos but most people... no fricken way.. phone is the go..!
Thanks for sharing this sad story.
@@MaartenHeilbron hehehe pml!!! You are hilarious!! Love it!!
Totally agree. And its sad as I also own a Nikon....
So you're not a purist with photography a few bags of gear are nothing, the phone never has the glass to compete I want my lens when I'm out there and quality 4K video else it is a wasted trip get a decent carry case and it's easy.
What happens if you receive a phone call when you are trying to take photographs?
Thanks for getting together to share your seasoned perspectives,. Nice rim light guys, lol.
Right. The big LD in the sky knows their stuff.
Its nice how your hair is overexposed. You look holy :-P
Thanks, I'd like to say it's intentional, but.
Terrific discussion. Very different from what I usually watch (landscape and wildlife photography), but very engaging.
Thanks, glad to hear you enjoyed this video.
Maarten such a great conversation that got so many comments: congratulations!
I would also like to join the discussion about traditional cameras declining sales.
Here are my 5 cents comments:
1) Reflex used to be Easy to Use.
To take a pictures with a Reflex film camera you needed a film, with fixed ASA, a 5 years lasting battery for exposure meter and decide the Shutter Speed and Lens Opening according to subject.
Nothing else to take care of.
Very often, looking at the focus marks on the LO ring, wasn't even necessary to focus properly.
Later the manufacturers introduced zooms with auto focus, removed the focus marks, and started increasing prices and weight.
2) Digital Cameras philosophy.
The introduction of the Digital cameras, far from making effective use of micro processors and easy handling, signed an escalation of continue, often marginal, "improved" features to the point that cameras could not be used anymore without reading an instruction manual.
Nowadays Fujifilm on X-T3, and I guess other makers as well, gives the opportunity to choose among 5 different ways to focus...
3) Allergy to Reading Manuals.
Young generations, since many years, are not used to read manuals anymore.
They simply refuse to go through 600 pages manuals to find out how to take a good picture, however camera makers seem not to have realised that and continue in their policy of increase numbers of useless features, therefore increase the number of manual pages that scares potential, young, buyers.
4) Photos or Video.
Most cameras are either good at taking photos or videos, mobiles can take both in a decent and easy way, including instant or live sharing even 4K, on socials.
5) Cost Factor.
Cameras are expensive comparing with good mobiles that, besides photo and video features, come along with countless apps and can be bought for as little as 299 Dollars.
6) Computational Photography and Model Renewal.
Mobiles makers release models year after year taking full use of advances on computational photography and progress on micro processor capacity as well as sensor's electronic stabilisers.
Camera makers are obliged to keep same models for about three years in order to recover their costs because they are still based on heavy and expensive glass lenses system and large, and expensive, sensors.
7) Size Matter.
Cameras are heavy and bulky, Mobiles are slim, light, with a much bigger screen and can be easily used even by children without having to worry much about if they drop it.
8) Always Ready.
Mobiles are always on our pockets, cameras have to be taken along intentionally and, due to their size and weight, are often left at home.
Sorry for the lengthy comment that probably will not be read by young followers...
Looking for your next review or conversation.
All the Best
Thanks for the thoughtful analysis, and yes, those are all good points. However, some of the disadvantages (sunk R&D costs as a reason to extend model life) are also valid for phones and are leveraged from one year to the next as the improvements are always incremental. Some of the advantages can also apply to both. I appreciate the comment.
Great job, a much needed conversation, informative.
Thanks, always nice to hear that our content is appreciated.
We’ve had a proper camera for a couple of years, but it wasn’t until I this summer that discovered the joy of a proper camera, and it oddly was connected to letting go of the pixel-peeping; if you put the time required to do manual shooting well, you start understanding that specific camera, then you start getting good, consistent shots, and then you try to get photos that resonate emotionally, and I find that that requires settings that on paper would never work. That’s where the magic and the art is, and that is very hard to do well on a phone
What a good comment - there are many who are too busy upgrading to ever appreciate their camera and acquire the expertise and experience to master its capabilities and put them to service for their images. Thanks for commenting.
New phone cameras are pretty amazing, but I completely agree about how difficult it is to keep the pictures and videos from phones organized. It's so much easier when you can pop an SD card out of the camera and import straight to Lightroom. Thanks for an interesting discussion.
Thanks for the kind words, but I should point out that you can also import your phone photos into Lightroom.
I really appreciated the exchange of thoughts and especially the joke in the end. I laughed out loud :D
To answer the question in a very crude manner: due to photography inflation. It started with digital photography and nowadays everyone is a photographer. Then again this enables new opportunities for camera manufacturers and it's up to them to ignore these or not.
Thanks, always nice to know we've been funny. Thanks for sharing your laughs.
Fabulous.... Is it just me or does anyone else just want a digital camera with simple analogue dials on the top plate that gives me good old fashioned shutter, aperture and ISO?
Thanks for your time and consideration with this video....do some more 🙏
It's not just you. Try the Fujifilm X-T3.
I much enjoyed your conversation! It is true that most modern cameras do most things, but, as you suggest, people continue buying cameras because they evolve in skill and ambition. Maybe it is time for an update on the market? I am a hobbyist currently on a 6-month waiting list for a $6000 camera that I purchased on launch day. This anecdotal evidence suggests Leica is not in trouble. :)
Thanks. Of course, no-one is in trouble if their expectations are in line with the market. The issue is that many companies had their expectations raised during the compact camera (pre-mobile phone) era and can't adjust. I also think that some companies (and their investors) may have unrealistic growth expectations.
Great collaboration. I follow both of your channels individually but enjoyed this video even more.
Thanks. Then of course, you've already seen our previous collabs. More coming.
I have bought and sold over 30 cameras in the last 5 years and have learned a lot. But it does seem to me that the impending demise is coming on quicker than anyone wants to admit and that camera manufacturers are releasing more and more cameras to suck up every last penny before it happens. I used to do high end scanning for fashion photographers and just after 9/11 digital photography came in like a tornado and swept up all my work almost overnight. There are few TH-camrs discussing this so I applaud you for touching on this very delicate subject. On another note, I think that the iPhone Pro11 is an amazing device but suffers from rather major lens flare due to maybe a missing coating on the lenses. All of this will only get better but the creative instinct will survive no matter what happens and yet some of us will still reflect on “the good old days”.
Thanks, it was interesting to read the comments of a member of the camera of the month club.
Interesting subject. I've always found all technology pretty exciting, in some way or another. Maybe camera manufactures will need to incorporate some aspect of another, more commonly accepted tech, to stay afloat? I mean, WiFi, Bluetooth, NFC, HDMI... those "minor" things helped, for awhile. Processors will get faster & smaller, software will become (hopefully) more intelligent. Could lenses become more "intelligent"? Indestructibility, and reliability? Not a very long term business model. Maybe data captured via phone sensors will render the stand-alone camera obsolete? Just thinking out loud.
Good thinking, thanks for doing it here and out loud.
I think the excess of technology, automation, and computational photography that we have in today's photography world is a main reason why so many young people are adopting analog photography instead. They enjoy the Hands-On, more manual, more control aspect of analog photography, don't need to spend an excessive amount of time editing as each film stock is the edit and brings us back to the foundation of Photography which is writing light rather than today computational photography. Personally I will always have a camera. I started out with a cell phone. But once I moved up to a camera, a proper camera, I never look back and never will. Analog brings us back to the foundation of photography which is writing light to a negative rather than today's computational photography. Personally I will always have a camera. I started out with a cell phone. But once I moved up to a camera, a proper camera, I never looked back and never will. Analog will also always have a place in my heart for the instant aesthetics and the user experience and in terms of digital photography that's why I adopted Fuji because it gave me some analog features but allowed me to take advantage of modern technology at the same time. To me cell phones will never be a proper substitute to passionate photographers and hobbyists. They are just practical for the everyday person who already spent $1,000 on their phone and do not want to spend more money buying a second device and carry it with them and actually learn how to shoot. But for the passionate photography hobbyists in my mind they will always want a camera.
While it's more than a few, I don't think it's "so many". The majority continue to use their phones. In my experience, people who say "never" often end up changing their mind when circumstances change. Thanks for your note.
Enjoyed the conversation: I purchased the cannon g7x mark 2 after your review of it and have been really happy with it. I also recently upgraded my Iphone to the 11 pro max, and in all honesty was hoping that it would replace my Cannon, but not close! The G7X still excels because the Iphone 11 still remains in my pocket for important shots, which is practically all of my shots! The Cannon blows away the Iphone in any forms of low light conditions so I say why bother with the iphone most of the time, yet the iphone has a good camera but not good enough to replace my cannon.
Thanks for the kind words. Always great to hear from a viewer who loves their camera(s).
Such a wonderfull conversation that just made me suscribe.
I don't use a phone for pictures but my wife mainly does . Every times she uses one of my too many cameras , it is for the long lens ( 300mm equivalent or more ) with close-up capacities . Her favorite is my G85 with 100-300mm mkII that focuses down to 5 feet for dragonflies or birds in flight .
My first point is that she ads the use of a 'real' camera for specifics subjects that she likes a lot and where her nice phone ( Huawei p30 pro ) just can't get ... and it does not 'convert' her away from it since she stills go for the phone for everything else even if i have several other lenses .
My second point is that some phones having several build-in lenses , while not having the range and quality of systems, are pushing away further the appeal of cameras from phone users. A mather of convenience and being good enough.
Thanks for the kind words and the subscription. I think the next topic of conversation should be "What is Good Enough?"
@@MaartenHeilbron Sure. Specific gear reviews are good and while different, there are always several of them when a maintream product is out. On the other end , a 'conversation' like this one is more unique and brings a larger perspective . Let's have some more of it in your 'the expert' section.
@@bdfrankmeow coming soon ...
Have a DSLR plus a bag full of lenses.But now my Cannon G16 is the only camera i take every were with me.Maybe because I'm getting old and always had the wrong lens on when a shot i wanted came into view.I also like the view finder on the G16 helps to keep it steady.Thank you for the video, keep up the good work!
It was a pleasure to read your kind words, and always nice to know that you have found the right camera.
Really enjoyed this.. More please! Mobile phone camera technology is still really in its infancy. Who knows what they’ll be capable of in 10 or 20 years time. Will definitely have an impact on camera sales. As was said.. you generally have your phone with you.
Thanks. We have done a few more ... th-cam.com/video/1pIAjRvua1U/w-d-xo.html
Surely Pentax are not ending camera production? The only news I've heard is that Sigma are ending lenses with the Pentax mount, so ending Sigma Pentax-fitting lens sales. Perhaps you may like to check these points?
Who are you calling Surely? Thanks for the suggestion, but we take pride in not checking our facts.
@@MaartenHeilbron
I see what you did there Leslie. I can tell that you are serious. Maybe I chose the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.
@@MaartenHeilbron I sense an aviation film being loaded into my Blu-ray player . . .
Fantastic nuanced conversation. Much appreciated.
Wow, kind words! Thanks!!!
Paul had more than 4 on the Floor with the feeding the camera birds reveal at the end! LOL
He's a funny guy for sure!
@@MaartenHeilbron Your half was very good on this one as well.
On behalf of my half, thanks!!
Love these discussions. Nice work.
Thanks, it was a pleasure to read your kind words.
Persondatory... best new word i've ever learned from a pair of expert photographers!
Wait! I've got more.
So should I jus get iPhone 11 or go for a small camera like x100f/lx100f?
Yes, absolutely go with the camera, unless you need to make phone calls and send iMessages.
Maarten Heilbron I see, how about xpro3, what you think of it?
Maarten Heilbron is it great to get xpro3 and 10-24 only to travel with?
@@NetvoTV Haven't seen it yet.
@@NetvoTV Still haven't seen it.
I find myself shooting auto most of the time because I simply have trouble understanding how to use the advanced features on my cameras. To me, the final results while shooting in auto mode are pretty much outstanding. To comment on one of your points, a dedicated high quality b&w camera would be awesome. Another issue.....I rarely use the view finder on my cameras. I guess I am just used to using a larger screen like on my iPhone. Also, I recently shot a few images with the new Apple iPhone 11 plus at our local Apple store, and it was amazing. It really competes with, and in some instance far exceeds, many dedicated point and shoot cameras. Point and shoot camera manufacturers must cringe whenever Apple announces a new phone with an upgraded camera.
I wouldn't worry about shooting in auto, unless you felt that auto wasn't doing what you needed. You've bought a tool with advanced technology - take advantage of it.
Excellent discussion!
Thanks, I also thought this was an excellent comment.
Excellent. Spot on. Love to see more of these relevant discussion on what photography is and what tools (cameras) we will use 👍
Okay, let's see what we can do.
Awesome vid. I really like today format 👍
Always nice to know that our videos are appreciated, thanks.
Excellent conversation guys. I really enjoyed it.
Always nice to know that my videos are appreciated, thanks for your kind words.
I really enjoy the conversation in the video. Thanks for sharing.
That's very kind of you to say thanks for commenting.
Enjoyed this conversation, made me wonder why I would want to "upgrade" from having a phone and my Canon G5X that I carry all the time. Think there is no real need as both can make the shot I want. The G5X even has a viewfinder 🤗
Thanks for the kind words, clearly don't upgrade if you're happy.
Maarten, most popular Japanese and European/American/Soviet camera brands during our days have disappeared. Our new "toy" the mobile has replaced both the landline telephone and yes, the camera. Some years back few owned cameras. Now most people have cameras in their mobiles.
An accurate assessment, thanks for commenting.
When I was shooting with my Konica Autoreflex back in the 70's my first thought was that there was not enough plated food pictures.
However, that was before the farm to table movement. Personally, I prefer the farm to kitchen approach.
I enjoyed this chat far too much lol
Great candid chat!
Thanks, it was fun to do, so we appreciate your kind words.
Oh I SO AGREE with you about video shooting with a phone! I'm so irritated by vertical video that I just can't watch it! When we go to the movies, we would't want a "pillbox" shaped screen. The films with the widest aspect ratios are the most epic and most enjoyable! When I see someone shooting a video vertically, I attribute that to laziness and a lack of imagination and thought. When I shoot video, I'm thinking about how it is going to look when played back on a typical 16x9 screen! I will even shoot most of my stills in landscape orientation for the same reasons. I like to edit home movies of our adventures and burn them to Blu Ray. Naturally I want to make use of as much screen real estate as I can. I'm profoundly frustrated that so many folks do not get this! As you pointed out Maarten: our eyes are oriented horizontally! Good points made about some important differences between a camera phone and a DSLR. Sensor size still matters! I still have my Nikon D500 and it still has tricks that no cell phone camera has! Nice, thoughtful musings about the industry! I enjoyed watching!
Thanks for adding your thoughts to this conversation, appreciated.
This is a rare video that makes photography interesting
Thanks, we appreciate the kind words.
Hey Maarten, just wanted to let you know that I really enjoy your videos. thanks for making them!
also a bit of nitpicking: the audio was slightly off in this video. it sounds slightly metallic or "doubled" like the audiotracks from the mics arent synced up 100%. dont worry, Its bearable.. It just came to my notice. :)
Thanks for the note. I try to be careful, but the two mics go to separate channels on my recorder, and one track could have slipped.
I think the sweet spot is the APSC format like the A6000 series which make a light enough package with good low light performance. Later on we will see improvement in sensors which will make APSC reaching full frame performances. Fuji is trying hard on that with sony sensors...and trying to put as well some smatphone world into their new incoming cameras (XA7).
It's great that you've identified your sweet spot - but don't assume that's the same for everyone.
@@MaartenHeilbron Thanks for your answer Maarten I know what you think. (Full frame are and will still be the best for low light).
This is gold guys.
How nice to read your kind words, appreciated.
Digital photography brought on a huge increase in camera sales as companies developed inexpensive and easy to use point-and-shoot cameras that really catered to the masses who were looking for something to take a casual photo with (Vacations, birthdays, etc). This is the market that the phone makers have now taken away from the traditional camera companies. I believe that any serious enthusiast will continue to use a real camera because of the advantages it offers over the control of the photos you take (ie lens selection, RAW files for editing, Dynamic Range, etc.) This has always been a smaller segment of the overall market and I can't foresee the phone makers being able to deliver what this group of photographers is looking for.
That's true for the moment, not sure about five years from now, even less in ten.
A lot of truths....thank you Siskel and Ebert.
For me.... I not spending anymore money until the day comes with something truly groundbreaking and that has not happened in any camera; cellphone/mirrorless/DSLR or otherwise for a LONG TIME.
We were hoping more for Bert and Ernie, but we'll take Siskel and Ebert.
Maarten Heilbron Maarten Heilbron ha-ha now that you mention it, there is a striking resemblance! ... thanks for the laugh and discourse.
@@graphguy That's why there are only two of us. Three strikes, you're out!
Well as prices are dropping for DSLR's since the Mirrorless models came on the scene, people are buying them up on ebay and watching Nikon and Canon cameras getting a fair amount of interest from shoppers, so there's still a market for them, these are, I'm guessing, enthusiasts, beginners and pro's. That thrill of catching a good sharp well exposed photo at an airshow, landscapes or street photography will, I believe, keep 'The Camera' alive :)
I don't think that was the rationale for lowering prices of DSLR models, both Nikon and Canon have always had very reasonable entry level prices - usually better bargains than similar mirrorless cameras. While there's a thrill, it seems to appeal to fewer and fewer people.
What lens did you use?
To shoot this video? The Sony 24-70 GM F2.8.
May I ask - what camera was used to shoot this video?
You may always ask. The Fujifilm X-H1 with the XF 16-55mm lens.
Great discussion. I like the conversational format (not to mention your backlight halos). A couple of comments. First, I think you're right: today's cameras are so capable that by and large, the new models are just putting a little icing on the cake. But as for cellphones taking over -- they're great for snapshots, wedding and party photos, and Instagram shots. But I feel silly trying to take an action photo with one in bright sunlight. For anything demanding -- in fact, anything that demands a zoom -- I want a camera with a viewfinder, and one that feels good in my hand. I confess I'm a grizzled veteran (though I did shave today), but I think a lot of younger shooters would say the same.
Thank you. It's always nice to hear from a respected colleague. While I completely agree with you, and will likely continue to be a camera fan, I wonder if a new generation of photographers will fail to see those advantages and learn to adapt to what we consider lesser devices.
@@MaartenHeilbron Could be -- but I'd like to see them take a good photo of a flying eagle with a cellphone
@@92kingsly While that's 100% valid today - I project that it will not always be the case.
Wow, .....love the video. I'm happy shooting film.
Great, always nice to hear from a happy shooter.
Good show thank you.
Thanks, we appreciate the kind words.
Good vid. I admire you for responding to so many comments. Although I'm not sure if the ROI is very good. Mobile phone cameras are compressing reality. Mobile phone cameras are good enough to do most things well. This is compressing the definition of Professional photography to the point where it's not relevant. Pro photographer used to be a word that was applied to a wide variety of photo jobs but now it's just relevant to high end photo jobs that are so complicated that a phone can't do well. As a result, there are very few pro photographer jobs so why would you need a professional camera. Therefore camera manufacturers will reduce the cameras they make.
Here's the biggest concern. Photography is being compressed by technology to the point where photography will cease to exist. The goal of mobile phone manufacturers is to use the camera module to make money, not images. The camera module is there to facilitate the software apps that collect data...which is then sold. This data is more valuable than oil or gold. The data that is collected enables corporations to sell people products and services. Usually that they don't need or want.
The sinister aspect is that mobile phones help corporations and governments to monitor and control people. Mobile phones reveal everything about us. Even our heart rate. Facial recognition software is used by many authoritarian regimes to monitor and punish those who oppose the regime. The camera on a cell phone is not made for photography...it's made to facilitate business, decrease personal power, and centralize power into the hands of a few.
The question is whether or not, this is a bad thing. Technology has been organically moving in this direction for a long time. We now have Neural Link technology on the horizon where all our brains will be wired together so that we will essentially be one person with 8 billion bodies. Can you have a sense of identity in a world like this? Or is one even necessary? Right now there are billions of pictures on the internet. But from a distance they all look so much alike...they're all so bland and forgettable...that you would think they were taken by one person. If you look at humanity from a distance the similarities are striking. We share so many characteristics and are so predictable, that you can see why corporations treat us like cattle in a pen.
Maybe there is no individuality. Maybe we all share the same consciousness. Maybe this was always the Matrix...and technology is just revealing the truth. The mobile phone will soon be replaced by Neural Link, or a similar technology, and this will kill photography dead. Along with many other aspects of reality that we thought were real, but were actually just illusions. And then the world will be like living in a dream, or a nightmare.
I don't respond to comments for ROI, I respond to understand what my friends are thinking and to interact with them. After accusing phone manufactures of being in it for the money, do you imagine that the camera manufacturers are somehow altruistic? I don't think they're doing it for the good of person-kind either.
If you think mobile phones are a dangerous invasion of privacy, let me introduce you to a credit card and a computer. However, we continue to adopt these devices willingly.
Wow, that went deep fast, thanks for provoking some interesting thoughts, always appreciated.
I’m not sure what movies you two would be in, but I’d watch them all
Maybe a remake of a Crosby/Hope movie. Thanks for the kind words.
No, wait. Guys and Dolls. I'd be Nathan, Paul would be Sky.
Leica sales are increasing year over year and are more profitable . The New Q2 is backordered and there is a long waiting list, I had to wait 3 months in Canada, the old Q was backordered and required a waiting list from 2015 through 2018. They are doing fine.
Glad to hear it, thanks for the update.
Great discussion. I'm relatively new to your channel, but have already been provided invaluable information on this hobby-- In fact, your excellent review on the a6300 is what pushed me over the edge to get my own sample recently, so thanks!
On the subject of quality vs content that you two touched on: Obviously, it is the content of any media that speaks to our souls, not the quality of said content. Photography in general should first and foremost be about capturing a story. That a camera can do something so human as to help tell a story is amazing considering cameras only have a passing resemblance to the human eye.
Some exceptions exist, however, in which the quality of a photograph informs the story to such a degree, that low resolution examples of said photograph simply don't get the story across.
The best example I can think of is the "Afghan Girl" National Geographic photo. If you lose the stunning detail of the eyes, you lose the story. As the resolution of this particular photo increases, the story the photograph tells gets more compelling.
Thanks, a pleasure to read your kind words. Good example, thanks.
Very entertaining video/subject matter Maarten, all you were missing was an espresso and a brandy. LOL
I knew there was something missing!!! Why didn't we think of that.
I haven't seen the video, but when I read the title "Why are cameras disappearing?", I immediately went to check my camera bag and luckily I found that my camera was still there. Mine has not dissappeared yet!
I'm so glad to hear, that must have been a relief.
Personally I also like to lean in and look at the brushstrokes after taking in a painting, just for that full 'Cameron stares harder and harder at the Georges Seurat painting' in Ferris Bueller's Day Off moment., but I completely , completely see your point. Kind of why I like to print small with a big passepartout. It was a relevelation to me after seeing all those Magnum prints in galleries made really small, with so much impact. You really don't need to do big prints.
Interesting observations, thanks for sharing.
This was great! Please do more.
Glad you enjoyed. More on the way.
These Canadians who have healthcare are so chill!
We're chill because it's a lot colder here north of the 49th parallel. Bring a parka and snowshoes!
Hi Maarten, I’m one of the weirdos who film exclusively with Super8. It is true that modern equipment vastly exceeds the quality of Super8, but I agree with the statement that content and composition always trump quality. For me, I take modern motorsport and make it look, sound, and feel like a racing film found in a shoebox from the 1970s. While it could be possible to replicate this look digitally, remaining true to the analog process consistently delivers perfectly imperfect results with no feeling of being disingenuous. Have a quick watch of one of my videos and it will all make sense!
You can count my son in your cohort, although he does not exclusively use Super8. Although editing film is hell, it remains a very interesting format.
Some new features are valuable, such as 4k video (and soon 8k video), better image stabilization, better low light operation, etc.
Phones with their 2 x nothing lenses can't compete with a camera.
My current camera is a Lumix G85.
We were not, as you may have realized, talking about cameras available today - but we were thinking ahead into the future as we watch the market transition away from traditional cameras. The features you list may not be comparable, but they likely aren't a significant consideration for many.
I'm still waiting for either phones to get larger full frame sensors (impractical) or for my DSLR to have Android OS and a SIM card (slightly more practical). Great discussion video!
Thanks for the kind words. Maybe that will happen, but I rather suspect that processor power will become more important that lenses and sensor sizes.
Yeah, and I hope my next phone will have an inbuilt refrigerated shopping bag
I have always had camera or video camera. I have 4 kids and 5 grandkids. Only our eldest daughter ever bought a camera. One son and one granddaughter have made good use of my hand me down Canon DSLR cameras. They enjoy the family photos I take and show on the big screen TV'S. They take pictures on phone's to display on phone's and that's good enough for them. Some of their compositions are Magnificent so I don't push cameras. Time and money is in short supply for them so they choose simple easy and fast and very sharable.
While it's rational, good enough is a slippery slope to reasonable and then even lower standards.
i wonder if the high resolution mode will render excellent results when converting slides to digital
What's clear to me is that Paul and I will not look better in high resolution mode.
Great channel, great video and a great conversation..
A pleasure to read your kind words, thanks.