- Did you ever hear the tragedy of Lilith, the first woman? - No. - I thought not. It's not a story christians would tell you. It's an apocryphal legend.
Wim, todays Hollywood hates Christians so, yes. I can imagine it. I can't imagine them taking pot shots at Jews or Muslims though. This is the same industry that praised Sausage Party and hates God's Not Dead to this day.
As a Baha'i who tries to learn as much as I can about religion, I absolutely adore this channel, thank you so much for your work. One of the few channels I turn my notifications on for. :)
I suppose the Protestant Reformation said "well that's quite enough of that..." until of course the fans of the Reformation starting doing the same with the Reformers themselves. :)
Although there was never a Canon for Norse Myth, this reminds me of how Sagas like that of Ragnar Lothbrok was basically a fan fic of the Saga of the Volsungs and there was another Saga where a bunch of gods team up with Greek heroes and Biblical figures to fight Satan and his army of dragons. The medievals liked crossovers I guess.
I was once at a convention where a recent Jewish (British Reform) convert discussed this sort of idea from a Jewish perspective; in particular with regard to midrash. One of her key points was that, whereas many creators take a negative view of fanworks, taking a view more similar to that that Jews take of midrash could lead to healthier fandom. She pointed out, like you do, that, similar to non-canonical books of the New Testament, midrashim frequently pick up favourite characters that people feel are underexplored, and/or attempt to resolve apparent inconsistencies (cf. Lilith who gets most of her development in midrash), exactly as fanfics do
I wonder if there's potentially an analogy with weak hadith although, even if not accepted as such, those hadith do purport to be legitimate in a way midrash (and to a lesser extent the non-canoncial gospels) don't
I think this is a very solid comparison, but if early Christians believed that Jesus and his apostles did all of the things in the canonical scripture in reality, why did they invent stories that most certainly did not have much basis in fact? Even the most die-hard Star Wars fan knows that the events in the series did not actually occur long ago in a galaxy far far away, so it makes sense for them to make fan FICTION. Did the eart Christian writers of apocryphal works I tend their writings to be taken as fact? Did that kind of thinking not occur to them living in a pre-Scientifix Revolution time when the line between mythology and history had not yet been drawn? Did they believe that they were writing down visions of religious truth passed down to them from God like the Prophets? We’re some of them just charlatans who wanted to deceive people either to persuade them to believe certain dogma or just to gain prestige?
The modern idea of history is a recent one. Even in the Middle Ages, most historians wrote half-fictionalized chronicles which were as much about what _should_ have happened by one metric or another as they were about what _did._ Perhaps these were the same. Or perhaps it was an attempt to come up with a rational explanation for some element of their beliefs which bothered them. Something didn't seem right about the story in the holy books, but the holy books _had_ to be right and their protagonists _had_ to be in the right, so they just needed to tack on something that filled in the gaps.
I think it's a bit hubristic and ethnocentric to think that we are any better than "pre-Scientific Revolution" peoples at distinguishing between history and mythology. Even with all of the fact-checking tools we have at our fingertips, surprisingly large numbers of people still think the Earth is flat, the Holocaust didn't happen, or the Moon Landing was fake. History and mythology, my friend.
@@andrebetita But in current times the vast majority of people don't believe in the things you describe. Most people who walked this earth lived in a world where religion and superstition were insepaparable from the real world. It's not so crazy to think that their idea of the role of history was different.
@@Lefaseer The beliefs of the "vast majority of people" have nothing to do with it. The OP was asking about the outlandishness of the apocryphal works, not the mainstream belief. In present day; the things I mentioned ARE the modern equivalents of "apocrypha".
I can imagine many early Christians grumbling about their favorite gospels being declared non-canon, just as many Star Wars Expanded Universe /Legends fans are doing today. 🤣
Its actually a reflection of modern conception of Religion as personal preference as opposed to Truth. The Ancient World had no conceptp of Religion. Sure, they horsewhipped gods, but defining Religion as worshiping gods iis modern, too. There really is no distinction between Science, Religion, and Philosophy and Asia didn't adopt our artificial distinctions until the late 19th Entry. In the west, the term Religion was rooted in the Latin Religiare, which originally on;y refereed to the Rituals, not beliefs. Over Time, the term changed meaning until about the 1400's or 1500's when it too on the idea of a centralised belief system shared by many people under a common Authority. But in the Reformation, the divides over Religion sharpened this to being about loyalty to a given institution in some quarters, or a given Philosophical position in another. By the 18th Century, With the Enlightenment, we got the idea of Religion as a unifying National belief system. The French Revolutionaries men like Dawkins and the other New theists lionised for rejecting Religion and who created the belief system they base theirs on actually considered the Enlightenment Philosophy to be Religion. The American and French Revlutions introduced a Philosophy now ubiquitus around the World of Religion as a Private beleif system AND as Supernatural and worhsipping gods. Modern concepts of Democracy are rooted in the idea that popularity shoudl rule and personal rpeference shoudl be higher than seeking absolute external Truth, so Religion is reduced to a hobby to make you feel good, nd you are villified if you don't see it that way and are a Christain. If Muslim, you get mixed reactions depending on wh you talk to. If Jewish, well, the Holocaust gives you a pass. The way we imagine Religion is culturally rooted and more emotional than Rational. even amongst the supposedly Rational Atheist Community. Peopel who form Religions around Star Wars or Tolkien do so as they want a Religion they like and that is shaped to their prefeences, and Religion is not something they see as actually True. WHich is a problem and why I dis;like modern ideas of Democracy.
The same happend with the hebrew bible (old testement). There are a lot of text, called Midrashim that expand the story. Some of them are epic, some are funny. These days when jews study the bible they study midrashim along side it (usally brought by Rashi)
I first found your TH-cam channel via the “Star Wars Fan Fiction Explains Early Christian Apocrypha” video which popped-up as a suggestion on my TH-cam homepage; a strong indicator that watching Star Wars related videos is my guilty pastime. I then started binge watching all your videos, subscribing to your channel and becoming a Patreon supporter. Suffice to say that I am enjoying all your videos as well the additional content on your website… but let’s get back to Star Wars. In Star Wars cannon and legend there are quite a few mentions of religious orders. Certainly the Jedi could be seen as a quasi-religious order, prophecies and all. There was also the Church of the Force, of which Lor San Tekka was a member. (He got killed in the opening scene of The Force Awakens.) In Rogue One we were introduced to the Guardians of the Whills. These three were all centered around belief in the light side of the Force and might be seen as denominations of the same central belief system. Additionally there were the Acolytes of the Beyond who worshiped Darth Vader as a deity and both the Wookies and Ewoks appear to have had spiritual belief systems. Not sure where I’m going with all this but to say that there is more fodder for another video using Star Wars as vehicle to explain aspects of religious orders, perhaps explaining the how denominations develop around a shared central belief system. Anyway… great work, please continue, and I’m very much looking forward to all your videos to come. May the Force be with you!
It is so interesting to me watching the amount of Star Wars stories greatly multiply over the last few decades, while also deconverting from fundamentalist Christianity and coming to understand the development of narratives I once took as gospel truth as very human in origin. I realized that a scholar looking back on our society 2000 years in the future, and discovering Star Wars, would likely have as much trouble as we do piecing together the “real” story as we do with many of the Old and New Testament texts. It’s so interesting to watch a similar process unfold in real time, and I’m glad I’m not the only one who noticed the similarity.
It's a vvery interesting perspective. I recently started to read some apocrypha and I'm astonished at how much the structure of these stories parallels later "hagiographies". I guess the "saint goes on adventures, performs miracles, converts exotic people and defeats demons" was always a popular genre from the onset of Christianity. I also like how you can clearly see that these stories show more of a folk literature structure than the canonicals (which is something you also see in hagiographies, some are clearly more folk stories, while others try to be more church hierarchy consumption oriented)
Else, yes, and the same happens with other Historical events, like The American Revolution where the Founding Fathers have myths about them or Christopher Columbus, or even Adolph Hitler. Hell, even Carl Sagan is exaggerated in peoples Minds and he lived far more recently. I THink its less "Fan Fiction" and more people trying to expand on something they resonatw with for emotional appeal.
The gospels are fiction, turning water into wine, walking over water, casting demons in swine, travelling around as non working miracle workers, the dead leave their graves and walk through the streets if Jerusalem. Not to mention that we have 5 fictional stories which contradict each other
@@TorianTammas If they are or not fiction, it's a question that for me is kind of uninteresting. For me, what they are is works of literature, some people think of them as true, some as legends with some seed of real events and some as complete fabrication, that has been true also for other works of literature through the ages, from Arthurian legends, to the Sundiata Keita to the Popol Vuh to Romance of the three Kingdoms.
Do the miracles in the canonical Bible seem less fantastical to me because I am used to them, or because they are actually less fantastical? Is there a way of measuring fantasticality?
Good question. A tub full of killer seals being electrocuted isn’t much less fantastic than a hoard of bears descending upon some youths making fun of Elisha for being bald.
ReligionForBreakfast Well, nothing really supernatural happens there, does it? Some bears mauling some kids is hardly unbelievable. Anyway I was thinking of the NT. I listened to a podcast recently that stories get passed on if they have “minimal counter-intuitive elements”-enough to keep you interested but not stretch your disbelief. It just interests me because I was talking to my wife this morning about how the stories in other religions seems silly, but the ones in the Bible seem beautiful. Like all religions are silly-except mine ;)
Dom'sDominatingGaming It is, but it’s less childish or something like “and then the water got struck by lightning and all the seals died” just seems like a 9-year-old boy made it up. Same with the Peter-Simon duel. It feels like it’s in a different category, and I’m wondering if there’s any objective measure or if it’s just familiarity. I mean rational me thinks the latter, but raised Christian me just FEELS something different about the apocryphal miracles...
@@ReligionForBreakfast I see the story of the "electrified seals" more fantastic than the "bear mauling" because it's somewhat illogical for her to have survived the electrocution when the other mammals died. As one commenter mentioned, mauling isn't a miraculous thing.
do you consider doing a video about Manichaeism? I always found it fascinating! (and by always I mean the three days since I watched your video about Gnosticism and started reading about it)
I've been binging you channel for the past week and as a religion, History geek i have learnt more in the past week then i would have in a decade. Also as a star wars fan i can understand the desire to canonize the star wars universe however due to this some what reformation we are seeing a growing divide within the fandom. Perhaps we will start seeing growing sects of star wars fandom emerge across the galaxy. May the force be with you
1:46 That is a lot of side eye Mara Jade's getting from Saint Thecla. Maybe Thecla does not like Mara Jade's tight black leather outfit. (Or maybe she's just wondering why Mara Jade needs kneepads as every day attire.)
Through these lenses, it seems almost obvious how a single legend from 2000 years ago formed a culture shared by one third of the world's population. Stories are powerful. Thanks so much for the video.
I feel a great sense of Fascination when I listen to you and frustration because I don't get to see enough of you! Should I start writing fanfiction about you? I feel really compelled to write about now...
I wish I could give more then one thumbs one; brilliant, Fandoms and Religions, helps bring a common experience by looking at groups passions and loves. Awesome!
Hey, as someone who's spent a lot of time thinking about the similarities between fandom and religion, would you care to elaborate on why they are not directly analogous? Thanks
Thank you making this video. I find a lot of people who think that Early Church Fathers did not include books like The Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Phillip, the Gospel of Judas, the Revelation of Peter, etc. because they were trying to snuff out "minority Christianities," favoring the majority Christianity as the only correct Christianity. I think the Early Church Fathers realized that books were, in modern terms, "fanfics." They were stories made up in order to create character development, but they lacked historical accuracy. The canonization that happened during the times of the Early Church was partially sorting out the historical from fictitious. Even the most anti-Christian atheist has to admit that Jesus and his disciples were real people, who really lived in history. In order to get to the historical Jesus, it requires removing the fiction. After all, I don't anyone insisting that "Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter" be read alongside a history textbook of the Civil War.
ReligionForBreakfast Maybe you should do a video on the Jedi and Sith religions in Star Wars, like you did with your video on religion in the Zelda universe. Why not? You've already done two videos on religion and Star Wars, if you count this one.
This video along with your video on Star Wars canon is what I had in my mind about canonical process of religion; however, I think the better analogy would be Doctor Who but then again I’m biased as I think Trekk (er) ies would think they are the one.
I find it interesting that I think we can find the same phenomenom in history too, although less often, one example that comes to mind being the ancient chinese novel, Romance of Three Kingdoms, based on the actual historical accounts of the same time period but with all sorts of extra fictional events, fantastical descriptions of generals, as well as expanded (and possibly fictional) personalities and relationships between the characters. In a way it continues nowadays with the game series of the same title as well as another game series called Nobunaga's Ambition, which is more or less the same as RoTK, but set in feudal japan, giving extra personality quirks to the various historical samurai and daimyo that we likely have no way to verify for the most part.
Yes, I think I can see fans of Philo of Alexandria's _Logos_ character building that out into the Anointed Savior of St. Paul by the mid first century, and then into full biographies by the time of the gospels in the late first century - complete with after-the-fact predictions of the Roman-Jewish War
I'd like to see an episode on the societal forces that cause an established religion to decay and new religious movements to gain traction. Not including contact with a proselytizing religion that's already well-established somewhere external to the society, of course. That one is obvious and kind of misses the idea.
Very interesting analogy. It adds a new side to my knowledge of the apocrypha. Since I am reading a book on the origin of the story of Abraham I am wondering if and to what degree fan fiction may have played a role in the composition of the Hebrew bible. Some episodes actually reads like folklore stories created to flesh out a too scanty storyline. I don't think we'll ever know though. The sources are too old and no written original to speak of.
I love this view point!!! In this context I enjoyed reading The Book of Mormon. Now, wether it's true or not, (opinions aside) you gotta admit that escaping Jerusalem right before destruction, colonising a new land, Jesus in America and owning your own planet sounds like a pretty damn interesting read lol
@@TorianTammas You forgot to add another layer to that, don't forget the Torah. I still want to read what they say about Jesus In Japan but those documents were curiously destroyed in WWII. If anyone reading hasn't heard of it, look up Tomb of Christ in Aomori, Japan. There are cool videos about it.
Can you do a video on mormonism/LDS church? I've just moved to Utah and I'm now living with several mormon housemates who's religion I only know a bit about.
In sense, all the characters in any religious literature is but a fan fiction made canon. It's like science theories accepted as truth because it is popular. Or Math rules governing because some group say so.
What you're trying to describe isn't 5he same. Scientific Theory isn't a theory because it's popular. It's a Scientific Theory because there isn't anything as of yet to prove it untrue. Math Rules are the same. 1+1=2 not because some group says so it's because if you have one then then add one more thing it's two things. If you think the theory of gravity is only a theory because it's popular. Then walk off a bridge and see if you can disprove it in practice.
Dr. Actuallyhe's Right. We lionise Science in the modern world but, Science is not impartial and Scientists are not superhuman geniouses fre of the foibles of Mankind. Many Times a Theory is accepted more because it fits the Popular mood of the Era than because there is hard evidence to support it. A good example of this is that there is a large body of Scientific Evidence that Blacks are inferior to Whites. Its all from the mid to late 19th Century to early 20th. The same Consensus also held that we can improve Humanity via Eugenics. Today, Racism is a Cardinal Sin and Eugenics is linked to Nazis. ANd both are condemned as Unscientific. I am not arguing that Eugenics is good or that Blacks are infirm, Im simply saying that what motivates current Science is the Cultural conditions it emerged in. The idea that Science is Neutral and Impartial is a silly antsy. Science is not an entity in its own Right, its a Thing people do, and the people who do Scenic are just as Human and just as Driven by emotion or personal desire s anyone else.
What happened to Mary Magdalen? She was one of the disciples put in a boat without a rudder and pushed out into the Mediterranean. Joseph of Arimathea was a tin merchant and made the voyage to France and Cornwall, England regularly. In fact, he became Jesus legal guardian after Joseph, Jesus' fathers death. It was believed he took a young Jesus with him on these trips. Mary Magdalen was dropped of in France and is buried in a church there.
I think it's an advance in human culture that we can create these myth cycles for ourselves knowing full well they're completely fictional, yet still derive spiritual meaning from them. "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." Mara Jade as a folk saint, that's funny. Isn't she married to Luke at one point?
I wish you would have addressed the fact that many of these "fanons" were created before there was a "canon". They are just as "legitimate" as the works which were voted on by those invested in power.
I guess the same impulse is in me in away. Wanting to fill in the gaps of early Christianity. What was really going on? What happened to the Gospel of Thomas? How were the canonical books selected? etc etc....
May GOD bless and protect you in the mighty name of JESUS! May GOD and JESUS break every chain holding you! May GOD and JESUS fill you! GOD IS GOOD! GOD is love in times of hate, GOD is strength in times of weakness, GOD is light in times of darkness, GOD is harmony in times of chaos, and GOD is all you need and more! If you need more love/strength/anything GOD is there! GOD LOVES YOU JESUS LOVES YOU! GOD BLESS!
Mara Jade is a good example for this, but you're wrong about the canonization of Mara Jade. The Expanded Universe is or was canon. There was like 5 levels of official canon. When Disney bought out Star Wars they de-canonized the EU along with all the various levels while moving stuff from B canon to A canon which was done without much thought put into it even though we know A canon ignores B canon which obviously causes errors in "canon". pre-Disney and post-Disney Star Wars is not the same thing with regards to how canon works or who decides what and why. Interestingly it does show a real time version of what happens when a group who see a IP as a tool rather than as interesting story gets power over it such as what happens with many religions.
I am familiar with the pre-Disney canon tiers. I made a video about it. Even pre-Disney, the movies always had stronger canonicity than the books/video games etc, and George Lucas is said to have hated Mara Jade. So I've always considered her outside of the canon even before the Disney buy-out.
Will you ever do a video about the story of Jesus escaping death and living his days out in Japan? Or about his trip to America? There is an actual tomb of Christ in Japan with a plaque on it from Jerusalem. Also, there's a show called The 100 about a post apocalyptic earth and there's a pretty interesting religion based around an astronaut scientist chick who altered her blood to survive nuclear radiation, went to earth met survivors of the nuclear holocaust and her descendants have black blood and go through a ceremony where their brain is hooked up to an AI and they become the leader. It's pretty cool lol
Maybe that's how Christianity started. A failed anti-Roman rebellion with a charismatic hero who died. People continue to write and embellish. Eventually it comes to Paul and he exports it to wider Roman Empire and it goes viral.
Why can't we view all of the canonical texts as fan fiction as well? I can't see how could modern theology trust one story over the other when all of them are nonsense.
Do you think there's any validity the notion that these non-canonical gospels and acts were based on other sources with historical merit? Not that these are the same status as scripture or actual history books, but historical fiction maybe in the same sense as The King and I?
While most are legendary and filled with many embellishments, these later non-canonical texts do generally still contain historical kernels of truths. They aren't completely without merit, and still give us valuable insight into the past.
Okay, what is it with people who talk mainly about religious topics talking about geek stuff? ^_^ This is the second such video I've seen this week, without really trying (the first was with "Suris The Skeptic" talking about Darth Bane: th-cam.com/video/K7yiCyGeU4E/w-d-xo.html)
- Did you ever hear the tragedy of Lilith, the first woman?
- No.
- I thought not. It's not a story christians would tell you. It's an apocryphal legend.
Rabbis could tell you.
@@2degucitas Gasp! The Rabbinical Dark Arts??
I’ve heard about it
there is a single reference to Lilith in Isaiah 34:14, the Jewish Talmud and Kabalah expand on this older source.
I love that “scholar of fandom culture” is apparently a thing now.
Finally, something to put on my resume!
We need to hold a Nicean Council to decree Mara Jade as canon.
Got to petition Pope Filone for that.
A council is better than one human
In some of the apocryphs the young Jesus actually kills other children. Can you imagine a Hollywood movie showing such a scene?
Yeah, the infancy gospel of Thomas. It’d be a crazy movie...
"Master Jesus, there are too many of them, what are we gonna do?"
Wim, todays Hollywood hates Christians so, yes. I can imagine it. I can't imagine them taking pot shots at Jews or Muslims though.
This is the same industry that praised Sausage Party and hates God's Not Dead to this day.
Both movies are trash in their own way.
@@skwills1629 cant speak for sausage party, but god's not dead was just awful storytelling and acting.
As a Baha'i who tries to learn as much as I can about religion, I absolutely adore this channel, thank you so much for your work. One of the few channels I turn my notifications on for. :)
What is a Baha’i?
I suppose the Protestant Reformation said "well that's quite enough of that..." until of course the fans of the Reformation starting doing the same with the Reformers themselves. :)
Or America's Founders.
Ever read Th Biography Of Geroge Washington by Parson Weems? Or anything by Wallbuilders?
Not to mention counter-Reformation... I remember reading about how Martin Luther was born of a woman and a giant snake creature!
Although there was never a Canon for Norse Myth, this reminds me of how Sagas like that of Ragnar Lothbrok was basically a fan fic of the Saga of the Volsungs and there was another Saga where a bunch of gods team up with Greek heroes and Biblical figures to fight Satan and his army of dragons. The medievals liked crossovers I guess.
What is that last one you mentioned called?
"The Saga of Thidrek of Bern" I believe is the name of that one.
@@elfarlaur i hope HBO makes a show out of it.
Sagas aren't mythology they are hero storytelling.
@@TorianTammas They definitely contain a lot of mythology and magic. There are different genres of sagas.
I was once at a convention where a recent Jewish (British Reform) convert discussed this sort of idea from a Jewish perspective; in particular with regard to midrash. One of her key points was that, whereas many creators take a negative view of fanworks, taking a view more similar to that that Jews take of midrash could lead to healthier fandom.
She pointed out, like you do, that, similar to non-canonical books of the New Testament, midrashim frequently pick up favourite characters that people feel are underexplored, and/or attempt to resolve apparent inconsistencies (cf. Lilith who gets most of her development in midrash), exactly as fanfics do
I wonder if there's potentially an analogy with weak hadith although, even if not accepted as such, those hadith do purport to be legitimate in a way midrash (and to a lesser extent the non-canoncial gospels) don't
"The fandom reforms"?
Love this. Thank you...I had a professor in early Christianity explain Apocrypha very much the same way.
I think this is a very solid comparison, but if early Christians believed that Jesus and his apostles did all of the things in the canonical scripture in reality, why did they invent stories that most certainly did not have much basis in fact? Even the most die-hard Star Wars fan knows that the events in the series did not actually occur long ago in a galaxy far far away, so it makes sense for them to make fan FICTION. Did the eart Christian writers of apocryphal works I tend their writings to be taken as fact? Did that kind of thinking not occur to them living in a pre-Scientifix Revolution time when the line between mythology and history had not yet been drawn? Did they believe that they were writing down visions of religious truth passed down to them from God like the Prophets? We’re some of them just charlatans who wanted to deceive people either to persuade them to believe certain dogma or just to gain prestige?
I was wondering the same thing, but we'll probably never know the answers.
The modern idea of history is a recent one. Even in the Middle Ages, most historians wrote half-fictionalized chronicles which were as much about what _should_ have happened by one metric or another as they were about what _did._ Perhaps these were the same.
Or perhaps it was an attempt to come up with a rational explanation for some element of their beliefs which bothered them. Something didn't seem right about the story in the holy books, but the holy books _had_ to be right and their protagonists _had_ to be in the right, so they just needed to tack on something that filled in the gaps.
I think it's a bit hubristic and ethnocentric to think that we are any better than "pre-Scientific Revolution" peoples at distinguishing between history and mythology. Even with all of the fact-checking tools we have at our fingertips, surprisingly large numbers of people still think the Earth is flat, the Holocaust didn't happen, or the Moon Landing was fake. History and mythology, my friend.
@@andrebetita But in current times the vast majority of people don't believe in the things you describe. Most people who walked this earth lived in a world where religion and superstition were insepaparable from the real world. It's not so crazy to think that their idea of the role of history was different.
@@Lefaseer The beliefs of the "vast majority of people" have nothing to do with it. The OP was asking about the outlandishness of the apocryphal works, not the mainstream belief. In present day; the things I mentioned ARE the modern equivalents of "apocrypha".
I can imagine many early Christians grumbling about their favorite gospels being declared non-canon, just as many Star Wars Expanded Universe /Legends fans are doing today. 🤣
I find hilarious that religious Abrahamic people back in the day were as nerdy as Star Wars or DC comics fans are today.
There actually are religions based on Star Wars and Tolkiens works. It's an interesting way of making new religions ^^.
Its actually a reflection of modern conception of Religion as personal preference as opposed to Truth. The Ancient World had no conceptp of Religion. Sure, they horsewhipped gods, but defining Religion as worshiping gods iis modern, too. There really is no distinction between Science, Religion, and Philosophy and Asia didn't adopt our artificial distinctions until the late 19th Entry.
In the west, the term Religion was rooted in the Latin Religiare, which originally on;y refereed to the Rituals, not beliefs. Over Time, the term changed meaning until about the 1400's or 1500's when it too on the idea of a centralised belief system shared by many people under a common Authority. But in the Reformation, the divides over Religion sharpened this to being about loyalty to a given institution in some quarters, or a given Philosophical position in another. By the 18th Century, With the Enlightenment, we got the idea of Religion as a unifying National belief system. The French Revolutionaries men like Dawkins and the other New theists lionised for rejecting Religion and who created the belief system they base theirs on actually considered the Enlightenment Philosophy to be Religion.
The American and French Revlutions introduced a Philosophy now ubiquitus around the World of Religion as a Private beleif system AND as Supernatural and worhsipping gods.
Modern concepts of Democracy are rooted in the idea that popularity shoudl rule and personal rpeference shoudl be higher than seeking absolute external Truth, so Religion is reduced to a hobby to make you feel good, nd you are villified if you don't see it that way and are a Christain. If Muslim, you get mixed reactions depending on wh you talk to. If Jewish, well, the Holocaust gives you a pass.
The way we imagine Religion is culturally rooted and more emotional than Rational. even amongst the supposedly Rational Atheist Community.
Peopel who form Religions around Star Wars or Tolkien do so as they want a Religion they like and that is shaped to their prefeences, and Religion is not something they see as actually True.
WHich is a problem and why I dis;like modern ideas of Democracy.
Tolkien was stoutly Catholic. I think this would disappoint him very much
@@jdcheetham
Don't let that fedora fall, mate
One day historians will rediscover Star Wars and think it was our religion 😂
The same happend with the hebrew bible (old testement). There are a lot of text, called Midrashim that expand the story. Some of them are epic, some are funny. These days when jews study the bible they study midrashim along side it (usally brought by Rashi)
molluskweddin Link it!
I first found your TH-cam channel via the “Star Wars Fan Fiction Explains Early Christian Apocrypha” video which popped-up as a suggestion on my TH-cam homepage; a strong indicator that watching Star Wars related videos is my guilty pastime. I then started binge watching all your videos, subscribing to your channel and becoming a Patreon supporter. Suffice to say that I am enjoying all your videos as well the additional content on your website… but let’s get back to Star Wars.
In Star Wars cannon and legend there are quite a few mentions of religious orders. Certainly the Jedi could be seen as a quasi-religious order, prophecies and all. There was also the Church of the Force, of which Lor San Tekka was a member. (He got killed in the opening scene of The Force Awakens.) In Rogue One we were introduced to the Guardians of the Whills. These three were all centered around belief in the light side of the Force and might be seen as denominations of the same central belief system. Additionally there were the Acolytes of the Beyond who worshiped Darth Vader as a deity and both the Wookies and Ewoks appear to have had spiritual belief systems.
Not sure where I’m going with all this but to say that there is more fodder for another video using Star Wars as vehicle to explain aspects of religious orders, perhaps explaining the how denominations develop around a shared central belief system. Anyway… great work, please continue, and I’m very much looking forward to all your videos to come.
May the Force be with you!
It is so interesting to me watching the amount of Star Wars stories greatly multiply over the last few decades, while also deconverting from fundamentalist Christianity and coming to understand the development of narratives I once took as gospel truth as very human in origin. I realized that a scholar looking back on our society 2000 years in the future, and discovering Star Wars, would likely have as much trouble as we do piecing together the “real” story as we do with many of the Old and New Testament texts. It’s so interesting to watch a similar process unfold in real time, and I’m glad I’m not the only one who noticed the similarity.
It's a vvery interesting perspective. I recently started to read some apocrypha and I'm astonished at how much the structure of these stories parallels later "hagiographies". I guess the "saint goes on adventures, performs miracles, converts exotic people and defeats demons" was always a popular genre from the onset of Christianity. I also like how you can clearly see that these stories show more of a folk literature structure than the canonicals (which is something you also see in hagiographies, some are clearly more folk stories, while others try to be more church hierarchy consumption oriented)
Else, yes, and the same happens with other Historical events, like The American Revolution where the Founding Fathers have myths about them or Christopher Columbus, or even Adolph Hitler.
Hell, even Carl Sagan is exaggerated in peoples Minds and he lived far more recently.
I THink its less "Fan Fiction" and more people trying to expand on something they resonatw with for emotional appeal.
The gospels are fiction, turning water into wine, walking over water, casting demons in swine, travelling around as non working miracle workers, the dead leave their graves and walk through the streets if Jerusalem. Not to mention that we have 5 fictional stories which contradict each other
@@TorianTammas If they are or not fiction, it's a question that for me is kind of uninteresting. For me, what they are is works of literature, some people think of them as true, some as legends with some seed of real events and some as complete fabrication, that has been true also for other works of literature through the ages, from Arthurian legends, to the Sundiata Keita to the Popol Vuh to Romance of the three Kingdoms.
Do the miracles in the canonical Bible seem less fantastical to me because I am used to them, or because they are actually less fantastical? Is there a way of measuring fantasticality?
Good question. A tub full of killer seals being electrocuted isn’t much less fantastic than a hoard of bears descending upon some youths making fun of Elisha for being bald.
ReligionForBreakfast Well, nothing really supernatural happens there, does it? Some bears mauling some kids is hardly unbelievable. Anyway I was thinking of the NT. I listened to a podcast recently that stories get passed on if they have “minimal counter-intuitive elements”-enough to keep you interested but not stretch your disbelief.
It just interests me because I was talking to my wife this morning about how the stories in other religions seems silly, but the ones in the Bible seem beautiful. Like all religions are silly-except mine ;)
P.S. Sorry for jumping between themes.
Dom'sDominatingGaming It is, but it’s less childish or something like “and then the water got struck by lightning and all the seals died” just seems like a 9-year-old boy made it up. Same with the Peter-Simon duel. It feels like it’s in a different category, and I’m wondering if there’s any objective measure or if it’s just familiarity. I mean rational me thinks the latter, but raised Christian me just FEELS something different about the apocryphal miracles...
@@ReligionForBreakfast I see the story of the "electrified seals" more fantastic than the "bear mauling" because it's somewhat illogical for her to have survived the electrocution when the other mammals died.
As one commenter mentioned, mauling isn't a miraculous thing.
do you consider doing a video about Manichaeism?
I always found it fascinating!
(and by always I mean the three days since I watched your video about Gnosticism and started reading about it)
Now I want Sunday morning cartoons of St. Peter fighting sorcerers and going on adventures with sidekicks preforming miracles.
I know right? That certainly wouldn't be controversial.
I've been binging you channel for the past week and as a religion, History geek i have learnt more in the past week then i would have in a decade.
Also as a star wars fan i can understand the desire to canonize the star wars universe however due to this some what reformation we are seeing a growing divide within the fandom. Perhaps we will start seeing growing sects of star wars fandom emerge across the galaxy. May the force be with you
1:46 That is a lot of side eye Mara Jade's getting from Saint Thecla. Maybe Thecla does not like Mara Jade's tight black leather outfit. (Or maybe she's just wondering why Mara Jade needs kneepads as every day attire.)
Through these lenses, it seems almost obvious how a single legend from 2000 years ago formed a culture shared by one third of the world's population. Stories are powerful. Thanks so much for the video.
Makes me wonder if Star Wars will do the same thing 😳
I feel a great sense of Fascination when I listen to you and frustration because I don't get to see enough of you! Should I start writing fanfiction about you? I feel really compelled to write about now...
Very well done video! Your delivery and camera presence is great. Keep it up!
Wow, I had made these same relationships between new testament and fan fiction. Neat comparison!
Beautiful video. I've had this same thought for awhile but you conveyed it perfectly and with much greater knowledge than I
I only recently found your channel but this video speaks to me because I concluded awhile back that religion was just theological fandom.
I wish I could give more then one thumbs one; brilliant, Fandoms and Religions, helps bring a common experience by looking at groups passions and loves. Awesome!
Excellent! I Wondered about the connection between fan fiction an the pseudoepigrapha. Thanks for the enlightening insights!
Awesome and creative point. Really brings the ancient texts to life in a way we can easily understand today
RFB talking about Mara Jade...
Best TH-cam video EVAH!!!!
Hey, as someone who's spent a lot of time thinking about the similarities between fandom and religion, would you care to elaborate on why they are not directly analogous? Thanks
Because religion is sacred for the people who follow it and fan fiction is pop culture.
@@imyourmaster77 have you ever met some star wars fans? I'd argue it might as well be sacred to some of them.
Excellent and very interesting video. It gives a good and deep explanation for the proliferation of apocryphal texts among the believers.
Thank you making this video. I find a lot of people who think that Early Church Fathers did not include books like The Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Phillip, the Gospel of Judas, the Revelation of Peter, etc. because they were trying to snuff out "minority Christianities," favoring the majority Christianity as the only correct Christianity. I think the Early Church Fathers realized that books were, in modern terms, "fanfics." They were stories made up in order to create character development, but they lacked historical accuracy. The canonization that happened during the times of the Early Church was partially sorting out the historical from fictitious. Even the most anti-Christian atheist has to admit that Jesus and his disciples were real people, who really lived in history. In order to get to the historical Jesus, it requires removing the fiction. After all, I don't anyone insisting that "Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter" be read alongside a history textbook of the Civil War.
ReligionForBreakfast
Maybe you should do a video on the Jedi and Sith religions in Star Wars, like you did with your video on religion in the Zelda universe. Why not? You've already done two videos on religion and Star Wars, if you count this one.
I love how you did this video its perfect
This video along with your video on Star Wars canon is what I had in my mind about canonical process of religion; however, I think the better analogy would be Doctor Who but then again I’m biased as I think Trekk (er) ies would think they are the one.
I find it interesting that I think we can find the same phenomenom in history too, although less often, one example that comes to mind being the ancient chinese novel, Romance of Three Kingdoms, based on the actual historical accounts of the same time period but with all sorts of extra fictional events, fantastical descriptions of generals, as well as expanded (and possibly fictional) personalities and relationships between the characters. In a way it continues nowadays with the game series of the same title as well as another game series called Nobunaga's Ambition, which is more or less the same as RoTK, but set in feudal japan, giving extra personality quirks to the various historical samurai and daimyo that we likely have no way to verify for the most part.
Yes, I think I can see fans of Philo of Alexandria's _Logos_ character building that out into the Anointed Savior of St. Paul by the mid first century, and then into full biographies by the time of the gospels in the late first century - complete with after-the-fact predictions of the Roman-Jewish War
I'd like to see an episode on the societal forces that cause an established religion to decay and new religious movements to gain traction.
Not including contact with a proselytizing religion that's already well-established somewhere external to the society, of course. That one is obvious and kind of misses the idea.
Zahn is an amazing writer. Im no Star Wars fanatic, but i am a fanatic for his writing
I love your perspective!
Perhaps best video so far.
this video needs more love
No mention of maybe the most famous fanfic author ever; Dante? :P
Excellent video, thanks!
The connection between Thecla and Mara Jade, is pure gold...er...jade.
Great video you rock!
First!
I like these videos
people from next a thousand or 2 years would think we worship DarkVader
So interesting! Thank you!
Wait. . . St. Peter fought a Wizard? Now I would have gone to Sunday school just to hear that story.
Also that Manichean video you hinted would be nice.
This is actually a fantastic explanation.
Very interesting analogy. It adds a new side to my knowledge of the apocrypha.
Since I am reading a book on the origin of the story of Abraham I am wondering if and to what degree fan fiction may have played a role in the composition of the Hebrew bible. Some episodes actually reads like folklore stories created to flesh out a too scanty storyline. I don't think we'll ever know though. The sources are too old and no written original to speak of.
Looking good mate!
its over Judas i have the high-ground
Good take on the phenomenon ... Fanon!
I am on you tube guys - hope I will be able to get back into the class after! Rebecca in new Elvet room
Those figures were probably not completely fictional, but their stories were embellished in hagiography. Whereas fan-fiction is complete fiction.
All Star Wars fans must see at leats the movies (episodes I to VI), The Clone Wars (movie and TV show) and the spin offs (Rogue One and Han Solo).
I would love to hear you unpack the Jordoverse (Holy Mountain, El Topo, Dune, Incal, Metabarons, et al.).
I love this view point!!! In this context I enjoyed reading The Book of Mormon. Now, wether it's true or not, (opinions aside) you gotta admit that escaping Jerusalem right before destruction, colonising a new land, Jesus in America and owning your own planet sounds like a pretty damn interesting read lol
A fan fiction that continues fan fiction.
@@TorianTammas You forgot to add another layer to that, don't forget the Torah. I still want to read what they say about Jesus In Japan but those documents were curiously destroyed in WWII. If anyone reading hasn't heard of it, look up Tomb of Christ in Aomori, Japan. There are cool videos about it.
"This Is my OC, do please cannonize"
I've always thought about this, but your words are better.
Can Kyle Katarn be Canon?
@ThePope
@Disney
Man, they should include Peter Vs Simon in the church sermons, would get the kids back in
Can you do a video on mormonism/LDS church? I've just moved to Utah and I'm now living with several mormon housemates who's religion I only know a bit about.
In sense, all the characters in any religious literature is but a fan fiction made canon. It's like science theories accepted as truth because it is popular. Or Math rules governing because some group say so.
What you're trying to describe isn't 5he same. Scientific Theory isn't a theory because it's popular. It's a Scientific Theory because there isn't anything as of yet to prove it untrue. Math Rules are the same. 1+1=2 not because some group says so it's because if you have one then then add one more thing it's two things. If you think the theory of gravity is only a theory because it's popular. Then walk off a bridge and see if you can disprove it in practice.
Dr. Actuallyhe's Right. We lionise Science in the modern world but, Science is not impartial and Scientists are not superhuman geniouses fre of the foibles of Mankind. Many Times a Theory is accepted more because it fits the Popular mood of the Era than because there is hard evidence to support it. A good example of this is that there is a large body of Scientific Evidence that Blacks are inferior to Whites. Its all from the mid to late 19th Century to early 20th. The same Consensus also held that we can improve Humanity via Eugenics.
Today, Racism is a Cardinal Sin and Eugenics is linked to Nazis. ANd both are condemned as Unscientific.
I am not arguing that Eugenics is good or that Blacks are infirm, Im simply saying that what motivates current Science is the Cultural conditions it emerged in.
The idea that Science is Neutral and Impartial is a silly antsy. Science is not an entity in its own Right, its a Thing people do, and the people who do Scenic are just as Human and just as Driven by emotion or personal desire s anyone else.
Are you still planning on making videos on Shintoism?
Yes I am still in the process of writing that series.
Gosh dang it, I had planned to write on this. I thought I was being terribly original.
It explains Christianity itself. Or rather the process that brought it about.
What happened to Mary Magdalen? She was one of the disciples put in a boat without a rudder and pushed out into the Mediterranean. Joseph of Arimathea was a tin merchant and made the voyage to France and Cornwall, England regularly. In fact, he became Jesus legal guardian after Joseph, Jesus' fathers death. It was believed he took a young Jesus with him on these trips. Mary Magdalen was dropped of in France and is buried in a church there.
I think it's an advance in human culture that we can create these myth cycles for ourselves knowing full well they're completely fictional, yet still derive spiritual meaning from them. "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."
Mara Jade as a folk saint, that's funny. Isn't she married to Luke at one point?
I wish you would have addressed the fact that many of these "fanons" were created before there was a "canon". They are just as "legitimate" as the works which were voted on by those invested in power.
The year 3022, some worshippers “have you read of the gospels of Peter Parker?”
I'm glad you eliminated background music.
I guess the same impulse is in me in away. Wanting to fill in the gaps of early Christianity. What was really going on? What happened to the Gospel of Thomas? How were the canonical books selected? etc etc....
May GOD bless and protect you in the mighty name of JESUS! May GOD and JESUS break every chain holding you! May GOD and JESUS fill you! GOD IS GOOD! GOD is love in times of hate, GOD is strength in times of weakness, GOD is light in times of darkness, GOD is harmony in times of chaos, and GOD is all you need and more! If you need more love/strength/anything GOD is there! GOD LOVES YOU JESUS LOVES YOU! GOD BLESS!
The beard still looks good.
Except Mara Jade isn't fanfiction, she's formerly canonical and was only edited out by the council of Disney during the Great Kennedian Reformations.
Ever hear of "The Cult of Wedge"?
My sister's name is Tecla
Oh some of the Judeochristian fan fiction I've read. 'The Other Bible' - Willis Barnstone
Mara Jade is a good example for this, but you're wrong about the canonization of Mara Jade. The Expanded Universe is or was canon. There was like 5 levels of official canon. When Disney bought out Star Wars they de-canonized the EU along with all the various levels while moving stuff from B canon to A canon which was done without much thought put into it even though we know A canon ignores B canon which obviously causes errors in "canon".
pre-Disney and post-Disney Star Wars is not the same thing with regards to how canon works or who decides what and why. Interestingly it does show a real time version of what happens when a group who see a IP as a tool rather than as interesting story gets power over it such as what happens with many religions.
I am familiar with the pre-Disney canon tiers. I made a video about it. Even pre-Disney, the movies always had stronger canonicity than the books/video games etc, and George Lucas is said to have hated Mara Jade. So I've always considered her outside of the canon even before the Disney buy-out.
So what you're saying is the fic I found on AO3 where Bowser and Jesus get friendly is basically just more biblical apocrypha
Will you ever do a video about the story of Jesus escaping death and living his days out in Japan? Or about his trip to America? There is an actual tomb of Christ in Japan with a plaque on it from Jerusalem. Also, there's a show called The 100 about a post apocalyptic earth and there's a pretty interesting religion based around an astronaut scientist chick who altered her blood to survive nuclear radiation, went to earth met survivors of the nuclear holocaust and her descendants have black blood and go through a ceremony where their brain is hooked up to an AI and they become the leader. It's pretty cool lol
Can you make videos on Hinduism or Sikhism?
So syncretic religions are like fans who write crossovers.
Thanks for the video. One slight criticism. When you speak about Mary Magdalena you show a picture (an icon) of Mary Mother of God.
The Greek on the icon reads: "Mary Magdalena." I checked before I used it.
In fan fiction, it's called "gap filling".
Maybe that's how Christianity started. A failed anti-Roman rebellion with a charismatic hero who died. People continue to write and embellish. Eventually it comes to Paul and he exports it to wider Roman Empire and it goes viral.
So basically religion is just a huge fanfic I knew it!
Why can't we view all of the canonical texts as fan fiction as well?
I can't see how could modern theology trust one story over the other when all of them are nonsense.
Or the Book of Mormon as more Christian Fandom
Do you think there's any validity the notion that these non-canonical gospels and acts were based on other sources with historical merit? Not that these are the same status as scripture or actual history books, but historical fiction maybe in the same sense as The King and I?
While most are legendary and filled with many embellishments, these later non-canonical texts do generally still contain historical kernels of truths. They aren't completely without merit, and still give us valuable insight into the past.
Okay, what is it with people who talk mainly about religious topics talking about geek stuff? ^_^
This is the second such video I've seen this week, without really trying (the first was with "Suris The Skeptic" talking about Darth Bane: th-cam.com/video/K7yiCyGeU4E/w-d-xo.html)
I suppose you can say that about many of the books in the bible since they were written hundreds of years after the alleged events happened.
Interesting video, I thought it was clickbait that reaches hard to make a Star Wars-Jesus connection lol
Glad I subverted expectations. No one expects the "understanding ancient literature through the lens of fan culture scholarship" angle.
I'm not a big StarWars fan. But I'm somewhat of a Lengend of Zelda fan.