Liturgy: Your Taste Doesn't Matter
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 มิ.ย. 2019
- If you’re a well-informed Catholic (which is primarily who I’m addressing in this video), you’ll start to detect a theme throughout the narrative of our creation, fall, and redemption, as depicted in scripture and our theology.
From the very beginning we were offered a choice. To love God and live in complete harmony with him and all that is, or to prefer ourselves in the hopes that we can establish a life in which all that is is organized in such a way the suits our individual preferences.
You might summarize this theme as a choice between submission to God or submission to our own appetite, will, and intellect. Or you could say, it’s a choice between worshipping God or worshipping ourselves.
Because the temptation to worship false gods or idols is really a temptation to worship ourselves because if we invent the gods and modes of worship that accompany them, then, really, we’re just worshipping ourselves. We’re avoiding the difficult yet necessary duty of conforming ourselves to what God requires of us and, instead, trying to conform our religion to our pre-existing preferences.
Music: • Kyrie: Orbis Factor, m...
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There are obviously strong feelings about this subject and I should have done a better job describing what I meant which may be the reason a lot of people have replied by assuming this is a Tridentine vs. Novus Ordo commentary. It's not. I didn't say anything about the specific form. I happen to go to the extroadinary form because there aren't any good alternatives in my city that faithfully present the liturgy as intended, but that doesn't mean the ordinary form can't be done right. But it does make me wonder why it is so rarely done faithfully.
The thesis of this video is with respect to what informs our reasons for organizing and planning our liturgy the way we do. Do we justify our decisions based on our tastes and pre-existing preferences, or do we look for some objective standard that correlates to theology, reason, and Tradition. My conclusion was the latter. I used the word "Tradition" hoping that informed Catholics know what I mean by this. What I mean is the magisterium and sacred tradition. We have documents like Sacrosanctum Concilium, multiple encyclicals, the GIRM, and other instructional documents that tell us what we need to know. To strictly follow those instructions would be to base our decisions on Tradition. To disregard those in favour of a model that attempts to reproduce fashions present in popular culture in order to appease our insatiable appetite for entertainment, would be the alternative (and what I mean by "contemporary"). Hope that helps.
Thanks for the clarification Brian! As a protestant believer, I didn't really make the connection between "tradition" and actual documents that the Catholic church abides by. Without that detail the video just seems like you're a traditionalist complaining about contemporary worship lol. I think this also explains why protestant churches tend to adapt more contemporary music and practices, since they don't have that same tradition to abide by. It's interesting anyway.
Okay, you didn't mention the extraordinary form explicitly. Well, then precisely what were you speaking about when you talked about choosing tradition over contemporary, personal preferences?
@@philoalethia I defined what I meant by tradition in the comment above.
Seems like you're walking back on your own views. The Novus Ordo BY NATURE is a break from tradition. (New offertory, lectionary, penitential prayers, eucharistic prayers, etc) Hence, your video can only be interpreted as a stance against the NO mass. Which is perfectly natural. Any Catholic who adheres to tradition SHOULD be against the Novus Ordo.
@@mosesking2923 , your position (like the original video), suggests a gross ignorance of the history of liturgy. There have been dozens -- probably hundreds -- of different versions of the "Mass." The contemporary one is, structurally, a return to the earliest known records (e.g., The Apology of Justin Martyr).
This was really great. Thank you for what you’re doing
Wow, weird place to see freedomtoons
@@johnculloton0422 His actual name is something like "Seamus", which is an Irish name. So he could very well be Roman Catholic.
Gavin Lane yeah, I just usually don’t associate libertarians with the Roman Catholic Church.
Gavin Lane would make sense though
Never expected to see you on here, Seamus 👌👌
Young man, you do a better job of explaining Traditional Liturgy than the majority of the bishops that make up the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops!
Andrew F. Castaneda those Bishops are 99.9% corrupt!!! They really don't believe, in my humble opinion. Not trying to be a jerk, it's just that they tell us everyday who they are.
@Benoit Delehelle at which part of the TLM is Hebrew used?
@Specky jakey We don't have to abolish the Missal of St Paul VI, 'we' do not have that right or duty, (it's not his 'Mass' btw - the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass belongs to the Father, through His unbegotten Son, in the Holy Ghost; with our participation ;o) ). The contents and make-up of that Missal does need to be understood for what it is = a swiftly manufactured article* .. to meet the supposed needs of that now long gone time (the 1960s). That, in short, is the inherent problem with the New Order: it was and is a man-made movement of its time; the Ancient Use was not and is not of that type, though it necessarily reflected (and reflects) on how it is used .. across time; note well, even the New Order liturgy was intended to be sung (in fact chanted), in Latin (Greek and Aramaic), more or less all facing God (the 'set-aside' apse**), though facing His People if that is the liturgical 'East' (as in St Peter's), and the vernacular is to be used where pastorally appropriate (that, clearly, is not what happened - though it was a matter of requirement not of 'taste').
* www.ccwatershed.org/blog/2014/aug/17/hippolytus-rome-eucharistic-prayer-ii/
** en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apse#/media/File:Stappoclasseaps.jpg
The links below are more or less what St Paul VI and the Concilium experts wanted for the New Order liturgy - even this they did not get:
th-cam.com/video/cx2N-J2ujuk/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/y5sPDDZFDic/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/M6la9saxTXk/w-d-xo.html
And, believe it or not, here is what any Mass in the Roman Rite should sound like .. according to the norms the Church actually requires .. regardless of the Missal, St Pius V or St Paul VI:
www.ccwatershed.org/blog/2019/jun/10/breaking-sacred-music-symposium-dates-announced/
The Low Mass - or Read Mass - is a pastoral permission, not the norm. And any music to accompany a Mass simply read by the priest should reflect this norm. So even the Four Hymn Sandwich, accompanied by guitar or organ, should be liturgically appropriate .. not fitted to taste - no, not even La Mozart-o-peretta or RaggySnoopKit-Kat (featuring DJ Fr Bob).
@Specky jakey Not quite, SL, the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council required Latin and permitted other languages .. in fact, parish priests were supposed to ensure their parishioners could at very least sing, chant, say or recognise the unchanging parts of the Liturgy (also the Pater Noster and Salve Regina), e.g. the Missa de Angelis, Credo III. The New Order Missal of Paul VI appreciated Latin (etc), it could not do less, but also required translation into other languages.
@Specky jakey Note well, SJ, 'Bishops, for their part, have the right and duty carefully to watch over the exact observance of the prescriptions of the sacred canons respecting divine worship.' This is the problem since the New Order was introduced, they didn't, haven't, and for the most part still won't; it seems because they simply don't like what it requires. Of course popes can instruct on the worship of God with sovereign authority; Ven Pius XII did, as did St Pius X, and St John XXIII .. and these were dutifully accepted and followed - some changes where modified even at the time; so St Paul VI had the authority to approve the New Order in his Missal, he even had the authority to suppress that of St Pius V .. thank God, however, he did not sign that last insult into effect (as Benedict XVI affirmed - meaning that bishops might obstruct the Ancient Use, as many do, mightily so, but those souls who followed the Ancient Use were not acting disloyally or schismatically, which was, after all, the horrific charge leveled for decades against faithful Catholics who, it is proved, knew a good deal better than the clergy allotted to govern over them).
Thus making this a matter of taste, rather than of duly exercised authority, is a non-starter - for faithful Catholics. Moreover, the difficulties with the New Order arise within the New Order itself, not the popes, nor the aesthetics. And, to be fair, the waywardness of traditionists (not traditionalists - for all faithful Catholic are bound to Sacred Tradition) arise within an ideological '-ism' linked to how Sacred Tradition is used (to advance an agenda that owes more to politics than faith).
Amen! I love the point that Tradition represents God in that it is external to us and precedes us and that we must conform ourselves to it. A beautiful reflection.
^ This.
Try for the Sky Tradition does not represent God. Helping others represents God. How much you give out to others on a day to day basis. Not a lot of pomp and ceremony and outworn creeds and dogmas set up by men who desired power and position,. Give out light! Give out love!
Brih
Bruh
He is not talking about Old vs New
Just... this. All of this. Yes.
He’s not talking about the old vs. new Mass, he’s talking about reverence and molding worship to God. That said, I have found overwhelmingly that the Tridentine Mass does a better job as reflecting God’s majesty than Novus Ordo. I’ve also been to a Novus Ordo where it was extremely reverent (beautiful liturgical music, ad orientum, deep silence, etc).
I get why the questions is old vs new is coming up - because the new is such commonplace yet, depending on the parish, adapts the “its my taste” mentality.
yes he is. the logical conclusion of what Brian says is attend the Mass of All Time (rather than saying the 'old' Mass)
@@marcokite as a former sedevecantist, radtradcath, modcath, i agree with what Brian said
On point! Well done Brian! The liturgy is at the heart of the Christian Life.
The novis ordo Mass shows us why tradition has changed to accommodate what we prefer that is easy and fashionable. The Latin tradition has brought so MANY people to Catholicism where it's easy to observe that the Protestant practices so prevailing in the Church today has run away from sacred practices. I agree with you 💯 percent. Do NOT LET NAY SAYERS DISCOURAGE YOU. It's easy to see you are doing God's work in an atmosphere where there are none so blind as those who have eyes and cannot see.
Child of God
FACTS 🙏🏽
As a Evangelical Protestant, I agree with what you say here, and I hope more Christian can understand this!!
Joseph Dee as an evangelical Christian how does this fit in with your faith of your church?
@Specky jakey how dare you mock Pius Catholics who wish to retain the traditional form?
@Specky jakey you are being quite judgemental.
@@charlieclubers It's more like I personally agree and believe what he said, my church is of course pretty free and open on how to worship just like alot of other Protestants.
@@josephdee4649 There are other churches out there like the Lutheran. It is more similar to the anglican way. Catholic but with a small c. They are protestant but they set high value in the liturgy if they tend to be on the orthodox site of the spectrum.
Thank you Brian! It is so true. Most catholics today pick and choose. Worse, a lot of catholic priests now follow the so called "pastoral approach" and do not tell all the Truth to people cos they dont want to hurt them emotionally or make them flee. So sad cos they are making their own God, which us idolatry= mortal sin. Pray for the priests in the Catholic Church. God bless you!
In the current news is the hoopla over the orthodox Bishop Tobin being truly pastoral in reminding his flock that they put themselves at grave risk if they join in the "Pride" activities, with his brother bishops -- who have ZERO authority over him -- criticizing him for publicly stating this fact, and worse, the mere priest, Father James Martin, expressing dissent. This was followed by a priest in the Archdiocese of Kingston, Ontario publishing a reminder in the parish bulletin, similar to Bishop Tobin's -- and the Archbishop of Kingston publicly *apologized* for the priest's pastoral counsel! I would to God that all priests risk the censure of their bishops for speaking truth with love, even if it meant that the Faithful be deprived of the Sacraments, for it is the bishops who answer to God for the entire flock. We are a bit "spoiled" in having priests available to us, so that we forget they serve at the bishop's behest and at his pleasure. The bishop could withdraw permissions to every priest in his diocese and he would still be responsible for administering the Sacraments to all the Faithful in his diocesan boundaries, meaning he would have to travel to us, and we would have to travel to him, like they do in parts of Africa. When we see bishops removing priests from their assignments for being faithful and preaching truth, as we saw recently in Saginaw, MI, we should pray that all priests have the courage to risk removal for such reasons. The situation we're in right now is that priests are afraid to speak out because they don't want to lose their jobs. May the Lord give us faithful priests and bishops! And a faithful Holy Father!
Brian ... ¡¡THANK YOU!! ... for being such a faithful servant of the Lord .... I enjoy your videos very very much ... As the months go by, your videos are a great source of light in the midst of darkness. ¡Blessings from Barranquilla! (Colombia, South America) 🙏🙏🙏
Hello Colombia, was there 2016, Bogota, Cartagena 👍brilliant.
Spot on, as usual. Thanks for being a beacon of light for the faithful.
Thank you! You have communicated perfectly where I have come from to where God has been leading me since my conversion from protestantism. I grew tired of one predefined menu to another to another as I wandered from denomination to denomination. Each favoring one bit over another, favoring one bit over another. What began as converting to another denomination to further family unity of faith grew into a journey for truth in my life. I am so blessed to see our Lord and Mary leading me to discover His truth. HIS Way. Your ministry has been part of this journey to the fullness of our Lord's Truth in my life. My journey will not end until my dying breath, but I am Very grateful for your part in it! Thank again, and my God truly bless you and your family!
Absolutely! I was just talking with my sister about this last night. And we both agreed that we are to inform ourselves to what is good in the liturgy and not conform to liturgy to ourselves.
I think a lot of what the American culture is giving us in a musical sense (rock, pop, etc) is creeping into the liturgy
Yeah my Novus Ordo Church has baby boomer music. It’s the worst. Not sacred, not loving, not good to listen to from a secular perspective
At my church, people with guitars will come in on occasion (not often, thank the Lord, and only as a last resort) The only thing it does for me is making me feel disconnected from God and it makes me feel discouraged to go to Mass.
If we disregard traditions we're saying we know better than our ancestors. Prideful.
Praise be to God that someone finally said it!!!
What you said about tradition coming from without, and how we conform ourselves to it, was well said. Thank you for the video.
Thank you so much for sharing with us. I share your perspective and learn a lot about our true Faith. Attending Latin Mass has been a beautiful gift as well.
But that is a pre existing preference
"I can recommend this as an exercise (alas! only too easy to find opportunity for): make your communion in circumstances that affront your taste. Choose a snuffling or gabbling priest or a proud and vulgar friar; and a church full of the usual bourgeois crowd, ill-behaved children - from those who yell to those products of Catholic schools who the moment the tabernacle is opened sit back and yawn - open necked and dirty youths, women in trousers and often with hair both unkempt and uncovered. Go to Communion with them (and pray for them). It will be just the same (or better than that) as a mass said beautifully by a visibly holy man, and shared by a few devout and decorous people. (It could not be worse than the mess of the feeding of the Five Thousand - after which [Our] Lord propounded the feeding that was to come.)" - J.R.R. Tolkien
As a church musician, I can say that there is a lot of praise and not much worship. If you haven’t already done so, I think you should explore the difference between the two and why praise is not worship.
Very informative, God bless you, you are the kind of person we need in this struggling world.
Well said, Brian. This is at the heart at of our fall from grace. We still are the people written about in the Bible.
Beautifully stated.
Outstanding video. Substance. Clarity, Thank you.
One of your best.
Brilliantly presented, young man! As a 74-year-old male who has lived fruitfully within the Catholic Faith over my lifetime, I understand the passion with which this believer's heart is given here. The Novus Ordo that I have lived within for 55 years has run the spectrum from absoltue heresy and blasphemy to mind-numbing peril ---- but I have always been faithful to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, BECAUSE it has been the only way I could worship as a Catholic. With an occasional long trip to a Latin Mass that has only been available in the last 10 years, the only way I could assist at God's highest Altar on Earth was to bite a lip and assist at a Novus Ordo Mass. God has helped me through it all the way on this journey through His love in the Holy Spirit. I praise and adore Thee through whatever means I have at my disposal. But it remains my precious hope that somehow the Faithful will be awarded a Novus Ordo in the future that is blessed with orthodoxy, traditional beauty in the style of the Ad Orientum, and in a way that adores God and not man. Love what you are impassioned with, Brian.
The majority of masses I have partaken of celebrated according to the ordinary form has been every bit as reverent as any mass celebrated according to the extraordinary form. Please don't let your experiences be the norm you judge the whole church by.
@@petercarlson811 I believe I have spoken that I have not done that. I believe that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the Truth of God's grace in a living form of Jesus on the holy Altar of God; and as long as the form is licit, it is Truth. In Him we live.
@@buergerdoc I'm glad if you haven't. It was just this sentence that caught my eye: "The Novus Ordo that I have lived within for 55 years has run the spectrum from absoltue heresy and blasphemy to mind-numbing peril".
All the words you used to describe the ordinary form was pretty negative.
@@petercarlson811 the ordinary form he has "experienced" ! he did not SAY ALL and i would wager any mass that has "altar girls" and eucharistic ministers is by far LESS reverent than any latin mass , and before "anyone" tries to imply it, no i am not saying the ordinary form is invalid i attend it often and it happens to be one of those that is slightly more reverent than most in that it has no altar girls .
@@YusefYandron Since when is the presence of girls a measurement of reverence?
You are a very attractive young man - blessed with the wisdom of the ages. Thank you for what you do and keep on doing it!
I am Eastern Orthodox & attend & sing in a Russian Orthodox choir. I see no trend in Orthodoxy to make the Liturgy contemporary with popular tunes, worship teams, distracting screens, rock type bands, etc. A Protestant pastor told me once that in his opinion the Orthodox Liturgy is very God -centered. I was surprised by that comment!
like the Western Tridentine Mass
Yeah! It’s about God, not us. I’ll never understand why some people are so surprised by this. 😒😒😒
You nailed it!👍
Also, props for using Ensemble Organums recording of Missa XI.
Amen! Well done!
Thank you for a great video
Excellent!
I can honestly admit I have been guilty of being a 'cafeteria Catholic', it was not fulfilling. Many of us do not like having the mirror held up to our own bad and destructive choices. Thank you for touching on the subject.
Im not catholic, but this was really informative and well spoken! Thanks :)
I really appreciate what you're doing here brother. I think you're on the right track. The main issue I encounter is the argument that there is no Biblical "standard" by which to measure what is "appropriate" in the worship place.
How is that an issue?
thank you
Outstanding commentary! thank you..
Perfect!
Are you going to make a video about thomas tobin?? Would really like to know your opinion on that.
BLOODY GOOD!!!!!!REGARDS FROM BUENOS AIRES, ARGENTINA
Love the video!! I pray that our Mother church returns to its traditional Latin Mass. God bless you
Or at least how the Ordinariate does it, and that's just the EF in English.
Specky jakey go to Latin mass a few times then get back to me. I’ll pray for you
Thanks for your great work.
If tradition is always preferred, then did the Christians in the Roman empire (once it was Christian) make a mistake by developing the TLM in latin, using the instruments available and popular in that time (organs, choir i.e.)? certainly aspects of the TLM do not conform to our present culture, but did it not, at the time it was conceived and developed, envelop and take on the then modern characteristics of that time? Like the architecture, music and clothing, for example that we find in TLM and traditional churches
Not Brenda Exactly. What is now traditional, was once contemporary.
No, NB, the Roman Rite was indeed very tradition-minded - even from its earliest days (the Letter to the Hebrews is something of a long sermon drawing on that very liturgical subject). This Roman Rite was close to both the local Synagogue and Jerusalem Temple forms of public worship - but in Latin, Greek and Aramaic (with variations active in Milan and Africa etc). This type is found also in the liturgies ascribed to Sts James and Mark, both of which underwent similar modifications - yet always keep within the original pattern (e.g. for the Greek congregations at Alexandria and Caesaria; Jerusalem having been obliterated under Hadrian, and renamed Aelia Capitolina).
N.B. Organs like guitars, polyphony and popular hymnody, are external to the Roman Rite and its liturgies. They beautify the offering, to God, but they are not meant to replace it (as in most Protestant services). Chant, however, is and was inextricably linked to the Roman Rite, and others, just as it was in Synagogue and Temple.
santamanone not true. Christianity is not traditional itself and thus is not eternal. It doesn’t originate in the golden age, and is a creation of the early Iron Age. With the Iron Age being the most modernist, what is contemporary in the early Iron Age is considered traditional in the late Iron Age even though it is against the true definition of tradition.
@@traditionalfascists3303 No IF, the Church is as old as Adam and Eve .. however old that is. The family, blessed by God, is the first church, the first sacrament, the first dwelling place of the Lord. Her saints include Enoch and Noah, Abraham and Melchizedek, Jethro and Moses, Isaiah and John .. that is Sacred Tradition, not oldness but religio = that which binds man to man and all men to God (aka religion, whether its participants follow it pure and undefiled or abuse and misuse it).
TheLeonhamm You can spout fiction all day man, Jewish cults are of little interest to me
Thank you for making this video. This is very important message to people condition to pluralism of opinions. I can say that the culture of pluralism kept me long time away from the truth about who God is and how worship and pray. Direct experience of Liturgy reveals the truth along with the sacraments of confession and communion.
Well said!
Hi Brian!
I started to watch Your channel from videos where You talk about the Orthodox. I am Orthodox Christian (in past I was churchgoing Catholic and student of Catholic theology). Even though I do not agree with many things You said about the Orhodox, I still think You have very high quality videos on Your channel. And You do have a way with words in most positive sense. I subscribed. I hope to see more of Your videos soon. Hails from Eastern Europe! +
Brian you seem like a young man who Loves the Lord and is intellectually engaged.
Traditions of men are always to be subjected the clear teaching of scripture.
God in His wisdom has shown us in history that those traditions are as subject to idolatry as the personal preferences. May the clear teaching of Scripture guided by the Holy Spirit help us recognize idolatry in all it's forms. Blessings to you.
Orbis factor. Great choice!
C.S. Lewis says somewhere something to the effect that on the Day of Judgement, one of two things will happen: either we will say to God, “ Thy will be done,” or God will say to us, “Thy will be done”.
8:20 "God is perfect and doesn't change, and neither does tradition."
I have to break it to you but tradition does very much change. Especially liturgical tradition. And that is perfectly ok.
Peter Carlson // (As long as we’re talking about developments in the Liturgy and sacred expression, then we’re on the same page.) As a Byzantine Catholic, I am maybe more aware of this than others. I see the Latin Church and how it has changed over the course of millennia, and I’m aware of the changes in my own tradition that have brought us to where we are-even though our tradition doesn’t really change much.
I mean, just looking at the Latin Catholic tradition (I’m not talking about Tridentine, but about the Rite that encompasses Novus Ordo and Tridentine), I realize how their transition from canonical representations to sacred art itself is a change and opened the path to more individual expression.
The Tridentine Rite itself and a lot of what surrounds it itself comes from preference. Do I think that it was highly influenced by what works, and in some ways by what worked at the time? Yeah, I do. But in some aspects there really was an adapting to the people...
People came to depict very emotional, very vivid, very realistic but at the same time very exaggerated things in Catholic art in the Latin tradition. Why was this? Because it moved people. It has to do with personal preferences... but guess what? I honestly don’t think God minded, because God used that to draw people to Himself.
We worship the God who is incarnated in our space and time, not the space or what style of worship goes on around it. Worship is fundamentally incarnational.
I think because authority ate up tradition so much in the West, that many (if not most) in the West don’t realize their own hypocrisy, and don’t have the most objective perspective on tradition.
I think people can make an idol out of Tridentine traditionalism in a similar way that people can make an idol out of contemporary style of worship in the Liturgy.
Even the Byzantine Liturgy developed and and evolved based upon what moved people and helped them connect to God. In most Catholic and Orthodox Churches that evolved around the world, the Liturgy was in a language that matched the culture, it didn’t super-impose a single language over all these cultures. Even Latin itself was originally an accommodation.
If tradition in the Liturgy didn’t evolve, not only would the Roman Church never have shifted from Greek to Latin, but the earliest Church never would have made the transition from Hebrew to Greek.
We really need to be more critical here.
I’m not saying that more traditional forms of worship don’t bring a lot. I hope that my Byzantine Tradition never goes through a Novus Ordo. But I am saying that, it’s not the worst thing in the world (and if my tradition a couple hundred years down the road did go through something similar, I hope we’d keep up the most traditional form in large part, but if it did, I would trust that God allowed it to happen, and trust Him with it, and try and see the positive)... God allowed it to happen. And I think He knew what would happen in general. And He still allowed it to happen, because He believed that whatever happened left the Church in a better way than if nothing had happened. If we trust God, we really then begin to see what’s going on. And if we trust God, we see the value of enshrining traditional Liturgy too, and keeping it going as well, and really allowing both types of worship to thrive.
Where I thought this video was going was that our preferences don’t matter-whether it’s modern or traditional, something that definitely resonates with me. The liturgy wars in the Roman Church are dumb. I see where everyone is coming from, and that’s just the problem-if you really look at it objectively, both sides are right in different ways... and so it really is best that both kinds of worship exist... I just wish that the people weren’t so polarized or hateful towards each other. The hatefulness does not glorify Christ.
Alexander Duvall Well said!
@@alexanderduvall2567 I have nothing to add but Amen brother. This fighting among each other in the latin rite is childish at best. Look how the very first mass was celebrated, and that by our high priest himself. It most certainly was no fancy robes, specific direction or a gazillion words.
@@alexanderduvall2567 I came here for this.
I'm not fully on board with this yet. The difficulty is in the mish mash of feelings and considerations surrounding conformity. I'd love to be able to talk it through with someone who has thoughtfully arrived here rather than one who has merely followed tradition. As a boy I remember my older family members singing the songs of Fiddler on the Roof - Tradition being used to justify "do as I say". That young tormented boy is still very much present in my now 61 year old body. It's a struggle but gentle and civil people like you are a great help.
Very cool video . well done Brian ! Fan from Rome 😀
Brian Holdsworth: Tradition is the most compatible with the notion of worshipping God rather than ourselves..."
Me: Everybody liked that.
General question, where did you find that intro and exit music you use in your videos, it sounds very like the music from the Netflix series 'The Last Kingdom' which features plenty of scenes from the Catholic middle ages in Britain during the viking age?
th-cam.com/video/E8Mf-1A6YtE/w-d-xo.html
Brian - I fought this battle for 43 years, only you are making a much better job of it. But it is unwinnable. In the end I gave up and joined an Orthodox parish, which solved the problem.
Spot. On!
Excellent, well done!!!!!
You are a light in the darkness.
If I was going to design a church based on my preferences, it would be heavy metal, rock, country, and video games, or anything that you could imagine trickling into the Midwestern United States. The point is, I would actually hate it after a while. Imagine listening to Taylor Swift at first, getting really into it, and then, it doesn't hold you anymore. Treating God like that is sacrilegious.
EXCELLENT 👍
All I understand is that the TLM is a natural development of liturgical tradition and the NOM is a force-grown, man-made development. The former was cultivated by God the Holy Spirit through His Church and the latter was crossbred with protestant "worship*" services (if only a little).
I trust the "organic food" Mother feeds us over the "fast food," but I'll still eat it if she wants.
(*not proper worship, i.e. what God wants or what is even a vaguely acceptable offering to Him, since Jesus on Calvary is not present.)
Bravo! Well spoken and well presented! Here’s a provisional thought: In Faith and Worship Form can equal Content! Tell us about the guitars one day ...
Thanks Brian. I love your passion for tradition. Are you involved with the Latin Mass Society?
Brian. What is the name of that background music? It's amazing!
Link is in the description. :)
@@BrianHoldsworth
Excellent! Thanks so much. I love listening to these Gregorian chants daily, so I will add this to my playlist. For what it's worth, here is one I deeply enjoy. Maybe you will too. Cheers!
th-cam.com/video/X5xoJfXT1LU/w-d-xo.html
Wasn't 'traditional' liturgy at one time new and 'contemporary'? There was a time that the Liturgy of John Chrysostom was new, right? I'm protestant struggling with this very thing and on my way to Rome or heading East (orthodoxy) and I really prefer the Catholic liturgy vs Orthodox and your argument is exactly what the Orthodox use when I make that statement. I hope I'm making sense. Interested in hearing your thoughts.
Read Brian's pinned comment if you want to understand what he meant when he said he supports 'traditional' liturgy. His main point in the video was that no one should worship God in liturgy based only on what they personally prefer, and so the Orthodox were right in saying that it doesn't matter whether you like Eastern or Western liturgy better. If you're trying to decide between the two faiths, read up on the Great Schism and work through the problem rationally. As a Roman Catholic, I hope you'll choose loyalty to the Pope, who Catholics believe is the successor of Saint Peter, the head of the Apostles.
I am on that same road, seeking Orthodoxy. I would recommend reading the church fathers on the issue and studying the history of your own denomination. Speaking with a pastor, a priest on both sides, and reading Scripture, is key.
Hi Brian! Love the work that you do. Thank you for sharing this. May I request / suggest that you add some specific Biblical examples, references and citations to your teachings so as to better substantiate the teachings ?
No, you may not.
Dear Brian, I absolutely love watching your videos, I just introduced them to my husband and now we're both binging. I would love to hear your thoughts on modesty for both men and women someday
Livia Carmignolli My sentiments exactly Livia! We just moved to a college town in Alabama- only two Catholic Churches in this town. Modesty is not a theme in the churches and I in good conscience cannot bring my husband and ten yr old son to a Church where they will have to fight temptations all through Mass. These scandalous dressed women are even distributing Holy Communion. I researched last night modesty within the church and many Popes have spoken about the dangers and even prescribed a dress code- I think it was in the 1950’s. This has nothing to do with fashion and everything to do with degrading Mary and the women’s body by the evil one. The sad thing is moat do not notice it and that’s where the danger lies. 😭 So we will drive over an hour to a more traditional parish and hopefully see an improvement.
@@76katster I feel your pain. I was very lucky to be introduced to a more traditional parish by my husband when we met, but I see the same problem in other churches when we visit. Mostly women wearing very inappropriate clothing that is not only degrading to themselved but to other around them. I will pray that you find a good place to attend Mass!
@@liviacarmignolli7143 praying for the men in your lives ladies Remember to pray for the intercession of Saint Joseph the foster father of Christ in helping them to remain virtuous
It may be helpful to swap out the word “you” with “we” ~ I’ve noticed that the former can seem a little alienating and may imply to some that you aren’t included in this requirement ~ although, I do hear you do this about 50% ~
You are an absolute blessing and a great help to multitudes of struggling Catholics such as myself ~ your work is so deeply appreciated ~
Often the saying "Lex Credendi - Lex Orandi" includes "Lex Orandi", that is the rule of faith and the rule of worship and the rule of life are all three interconnected. On examination in experience, this proves very true.
Brian, I enjoyed your presentation on this topic. Have you thought about making this presentation at the National Pastoral Musician's (NPM) convention in Raleigh, North Carolina this summer (July 16-19, 2019), or at the 2020 convention in Louisville, KY, or at a local chapter? Musicians need to hear what you are saying. I am so much more in Love with Jesus that I have been throughout my life. It has much to do with where I am at in my life, but I will say that good liturgy has played a major role in that. We have a priest here at our parish and he is steadily turning things around to what good worship ought to look like. Interesting enough, our attendance remains relatively high and consistent. We have a strong faith community here, albeit, there are those who have left the church to go across town to the "feel good" church. When I attend mass, I walk away re-charged and filled up. As a teacher once posted for faith formation classes, "We are not here to be entertained; we are here to be sustained." So true.
My only question that came to mind which came up near the end of your presentation is what part does the Holy Spirit play in the liturgy? I have always been taught to let the Spirit guide you. In this context, I would presume that the Holy Spirit continues and will continue to lead Holy Mother Church in its liturgy in future generations. One can take from the solid liturgical traditions of the early church and build on them. I believe that is what every generation is called to do. Music, art, architecture, environment, etc ought to be sacred and lifting our hearts and minds to the heavenly reality: a foretaste of heaven on earth. Of course, that is always where the purists vs modernists fall into play because as we all know, art and music can be very subjective. From my perspective, it leaves me to ponder what more can possibly be added in 2000 years of church liturgical history that hasn't already been introduced? Keep up the good work. God bless.
I agree, you can argue with God all you like, but in the end it's His way or the highway.
3 Hail Marys for you, Brian. And belated Happy Father's Day!
I really think liturgy is fine if it's in the common language, and after you make sure the people will understand the words, it is good to be as close to tradition as possible. The music doesn't bother me, but I will have a really hard time worshipping if I don't understand the words.
Could someone who gave this video a thumbs down please explain why?
My personal preference is for the reverend Mass, Latin or vernacular, but with chant and altar railing Communion on tongue when kneeling. But the one church that comes closest to this falls short in other ways, like the ability for it to provide a community for my children.
I hate when i hear people say that music helps them to pray (them speaking of guitars an contemporary music, of course), an then proceed to use it for worship... prayer is not worship. I dont mind that kind of prayer, it really is a good way to do that. But dont bring it into the Mass
I see your point Brian, and I agree with the beauty of the old rite (which is not eternal anyway), but there's a lot of good taste and undoubted God's worship in the new rite also. And there's obedience to the legitimate authority of the Church also
Totally agree with you.
@Specky jakey by good taste I meant that not everything is ugly in the new rite (which can also be celebrated in latin), but yeah, I'd rather stick to Eclesial authority rather than my personal taste. Anyway, I also dislike the abuses in the liturgy that might lead some people to dislike liturgical reforms. Thank God those abuses are not the rule in Argentina, but maybe they still are in Canada and the US
Luke 6:43-45: "For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit."
@Francisco Javier Ojeda What I think is that all the liturgical abuse was more common in the 70's and 80's, just after Vatican II. Don't know why they talk about this nowadays as if that were the problem today in the Church. I'm from Spain and the liturgical abuse is not the rule here either (well, unless liturgical abuse is everything except singing in Latin)
@@fojedaquintana it's not about the language, it's about the rite itself. Read the texts of both missals, side by side. Look at all of the other apostolic liturgies in the world at all points in history, the Novus Ordo is absolutely unprecedented
This is a great video. At first, it seems like preferring traditional liturgy could also be something that doesn't matter, as much as preferring the Novus Ordo. *Response:* That would be the case if someone only went to the TLM because of the beauty _itself._ Admittedly, this was what got me hooked on the TLM, but slowly caused problems as I would judge the mass on how beautiful it sounded. But I learned to focus on the fact that it is a _mass,_ not a show, and it changed everything. The Liturgy of the Word is still hard for me to follow, but the way the priest raises the Body and Blood of Christ to God in silence followed by angelic singing hits me so hard. It truly _feels_ like I am witnessing transubstantiation without having to willfully ponder said mystery. I think that is truly a beautiful and good thing for the faithful to experience... I'm not sure how what effect it will have on those who do not truly believe in the Transubstantiation, but it surely it would convey the glory of the situation.
I’m blind. How am I supposed to watch him elevate the Host in silence?
@Specky jakey You're right. But is not the whole point of a crucifix, a hymn, a cathedral to transport you give you a physical experience of the Divine? I think the point Brain is trying to make is that it's not about how good mass makes you feel, as if mass wasn't designed to make you feel anything. The point is that there's a difference between feeling good and worshiping God. I like the Latin mass because it helps me understand through feelings. The feelings are a middle man, not the end itself.
@@rebeccabaumgarten7573 That's unfortunate that you're blind Rebecca, though I can't tell if you're actually blind or are just speaking of blind people in general. However, you missed my point. I did not say that the Tridentine mass is or should be the only mass celebrated. You can still go to a Novus Ordo mass if that's what helps you worship God and participate in His sacrifice the best. Brian and I are both arguing that one should choose which mass we attend based upon how the divine element is conveyed rather than on personal enjoyment alone.
journeyfiveonesix right, but conveyance is a 2-Way St., since it isn’t exactly conveyed if I’m not receiving anything. i’ve only been to the TLM twice, both in the past year, and my primary sensation was unfortunately sensory deprivation, since so many more of the prayers are silent, and those that aren’t are in Latin. I don’t say this to make the point of “nobody’s paying attention to my feelings,“ but to point out that the Question of which Mass conveys beauty and mystery better isn’t as Black and white as many people think. Do you know how difficult it was sitting there not being able to use the missal and being bombarded with the trad litany: “this is truth. This is goodness. This is beauty. This is the Mass of the ages that nourished countless saints, And you only don’t love it because you haven’t transcended your novus ordo training wheels“? Not that you’re saying this, but people need to realize that the TLM isn’t a feast for the senses if one of those senses doesn’t work. We should at least be honest and say it’s a feast for the eyes. All of this just goes to say, our perceptions of what conveys holiness have some degree of subjectivity, and people only seem to consider them objective when they favor the TLM.
@@rebeccabaumgarten7573 Interesting. Now reading this, I think I'm gonna change my stance. Before I implied that the problem was you not being able to experience the mass, but it seems like, and tell me if I'm wrong, the problem is that you simply don't know what's going on. It's not as if the Novus Ordo mass is presented in described video. It's just that the TLM has more symbolic action and reverent silence. Honestly, I'll repeat what I said earlier, the TLM as a "sensory experience" only can be enjoyed once or twice. Beyond that, you need to know what's going on, what's being said, etc. So, you tell me, would you say the problem that the Eucharist is lifted in silence, or that you simply can't follow along? The Anglican-Catholic rite has a traditional mass like the TLM but entirely in English, and maybe hearing the english, along with studying the mass, might change things a bit.
Also, as to the degree to which the TLM conveys holiness, I see your point, but would also like to add that the TLM was designed to do so. Many people, like myself, who prefer the TLM do so because it's not trying to appeal to us. The whole point, it seems, of the Vatican II changes, was to make God accessible. You don't have to kneel, the priest is your buddy, the choir plays guitar, etc. It's quaint, but many people instantly recognize the difference between it and the Mass of the Angels. The TLM evolved over centuries in order to make as good an act of worship as possible, and we can't say that about the N.O. Mass, and, for many people, it shows.
Amen Brian. The word heresy comes from the Latin word that means “to choose”.
Dear Brian, What a brave man you are to open this can of worms!!! Most people respond emotionally to this topic and not to reason and teachings of the Church. People will 'read-into' your vlog regardless - either for or against either real or imagined affirmation or insult.
The response of the creature to the Divine Revelation is liturgy. It should be celebrated prayerfully by all in attendance, but since it is a daily miracle it is not really appreciated.
Take into consideration firstly that most people have not read the Conciliar Documents of the Second Vatican Council (all of the documents, not just cafeteria style), secondly, many who have 'sort-of' read them probably misunderstood them, and thirdly - its only been 50 years since the Council - in its two-thousand year history a veritable blink of an eye. It'll take several more years before people actually understand the teachings correctly and put them into practice.
There is always danger of idolization of those things we value even among those who truly desire to do good and be good.
Blessings on your ministry.
I suddenly feel like I’m being transformed into being Canadian: 1st Brian H tells me how to be a better catholic, dr Jordan Peterson telling me to clean up my room, election in Toronto keep blitzing my TH-camr channels, the latest on Justin Trudeau keep popping on news, Rebel news media keeps telling me of the latest crimes of Canadian Supreme Court, Montreal Raptors move nba championship out of USA.
Hahaha, right? Canadians are overrepresented on TH-cam! Patrick Coffin and Steven Crowder are Canadians, too, aren't they?
All the beauty and solemnity of the Tridentine Rite can't make up for its blatant disregard for Christ's command, "Drink, ALL of you" in withholding the Cup from the Laity. Fortunately, you can have all the beauty and reverence of the TLM, *with* obedience to Christ's command, *with* the ancient epiclesis to the Holy Spirit (which the TLM lacks), *and with* liturgy in the vernacular in the Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox Church.
For more answers please visit Church Militant
As a young boy I learned the Ten Commandments. Easy enough to understand. It has taken me far. Thank you lord
How do you know if it's a personal preference or if the local Mass is authentically irreverent?
Hmm. Do you think we could flip the argument the other way?
I personally prefer traditional liturgy as well, but I know that some of the things we hold as "traditional", came from the contemporary culture of early Christians.
For example: when choosing music for the Mass, singing sacred choral compositions by Palestrina would be considered traditional. However, at the time when these were composed, some of the popular music of that time sounded exactly the same as the sacred one (I know this because I'm a music major and have studied music history, and if you want I can cite some examples).
What do you all think?
Anyhow, I think any solid Catholic should be able to worship within whatever form of Catholic liturgy, because the outer appearance fortunately does not change the theological reality.
Maura Navarrete I thought the same thing and I don’t think it holds up for liturgy (reverence and tradition are what the Church has always concluded to being a reflection of proper response).
Where your question DOES hold up is in regards to the Corporal works of mercy. Many of my fellow trads rightly recognize the spiritual works as more important but then completely toss out the corporal works. I don’t know if it’s because the liberal Catholics are obsessed with so-called social justice and so they distance themselves overwhelmingly, but we can’t pick and choose our works either.
Not all, this is just some. Not making a case for the seamless garment either.
Feelings are not truth. People govern their actions and beliefs on their "feelings". God governs through truth . Eternal and immutable.
I'm Anglican, not Catholic, so I don't understand many of the points in your advocacy, but I will say that your theme is correct: our worship shouldn't be based on what is currently popular, or what we personally like. It's not a cafeteria of belief, but it helps if you need to question your motives, objectives, and difficulties in facing the challenges in transforming your life into a Godly life. A big problem comes when politics and church become entwined, and the motives for being "in church" begin to shift toward political gain; the motives for the worship service shift toward justifying political campaigns, and both are harmed by those moves. Atheism is most virulent in countries with state-established churches. Church is most toxic when it preaches a prosperity gospel.. Stay the course, Brian, and Godspeed you in your journey in life.
I do not quite share the notion that the tradition is there and we just need to comply. There are so MANY liturgies! Within churches, approaches and liturgies (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_liturgy) differed and changed across history. So it was also human choice, whether collective or individual, and we are now faced with the question who and what to follow. Not exactly a cafeteria choice but sometimes a real dilemma
If you had read the pinned post, you would have seen that Brian clarified his intended message, which is that regardless of the approved liturgy, it must be followed exactly, and not added to or subtracted from to suit individual preferences. When a priest celebrates Mass in a clown costume, we should question his judgment, regardless of which approved liturgy he is celebrating.
I agree with you on that we should love God and worship Him not ourselves. However, Tradition didn’t come out of thin air. The Apostles didn’t speak in Latin, nor do most of the rituals that are done now in the Church. These traditions became traditions because someone decided they should be traditions. And so people started following them. The only reason they are so highly regarded is because it has been done for so long. That being said I’m also against contemporary.. anything
I just worry that idolatry goes both ways. A good, traditional liturgy is beautiful; this is exactly why it can run the risk of becoming an idol. If I am more concerned with what kind of liturgy I am going to on Sunday than with Whom it is that I am receiving on Sunday, it seems I may have a bigger issue than a bad liturgy on my hands.
Don’t get me wrong, my taste is definitely for the traditional as opposed to the contemporary. Good liturgy is very important; it is just not the most important thing. The Eucharist is.
The folks who attended Fr. Kolbe’s Masses in secret at Auschwitz were most certainly not attending them for their beautiful liturgies. They were there for the Eucharist and anything beautiful in the liturgy would just have been icing on the cake.
Your comment makes me wonder: Is it allowed to use any kind of bread for consecration in special circumstances, like, you know, being a prisoner at Auschwitz?
Carolus Magnus Good question. I can’t say I know the answer.
I agree. The Eucharist is THE most important thing about the Mass. Beauty is, of course, secondary to the Eucharist. There's no question about that. However, my biggest problem with the new rite is that it generally (not always, but almost all of the time) doesn't show the reverence, respect, and adoration that the Eucharist deserves. The new rite fails to do what liturgies are suposed to do: honor and revere the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ present in the Eucharist. On the other hand, the traditional rite always makes a great job of showing the reverence and respect the Eucharist deserves, in addition to being artistically beautiful. That's why in my opinion, even though both rites are still valid, the old rite is liturgically better in almost every respect. So if I had the chance to choose which rite to go to, then I would choose the rite which best honors Our Lord.
Siegfried. Siegfried. I’d say I agree wholeheartedly. My only concern is when the old rite, in all of its beauty, becomes a distraction from Our Lord. I noticed this happening to me somewhat when I would go to some gorgeous High Tridentine Masses. I got so caught up in the beauty of the music and the presentation that I forgot I was at mass. I also felt myself getting a bit pretentious when I went back to my normal parish.
My worry is that it becomes like following a preacher around when he leaves one parish and goes to another. To some degree it makes one question whether they were there for the Eucharist or the priest. The same temptation can occur with the liturgy, I think.
So, as long as one guards against these things I am all for the return of the old rite. Or at least one that is as reverent as the old rite.
@@wilhufftarkin8543 the liturgy can only be celebrated with pure wheat bread. Pure wheat, water, possibly salt. Leaven is normally used in many eastern liturgies, but would be wholely illicit in the Roman rite. Unless we were, for example, in Auschwitz, because the salvation of souls is the highest law in the church. You literally cannot use things other than wheat bread, not even gluten free hosts. No change happens. The wine must be fermented fruit of the vine, be it red or white wine.
I kinda sorta agree. In truth, Catholic attendance rates were already dropping beginning in the early 1920’s. The reality is that many Novus Ordo changes are vastly over exaggerated. People didn’t stop coming to church because the priest turned to face the people. I think poor homilies do more damage than bad architecture and bad liturgy.
I don't want to sound uncharitable Brain, but about the tone being more important than the message. Why do I get the feeling people who are declined to the more conservative side have a certain schadenfreude, like it's almost like saying "Yeah... you're personal taste doesn't matter, you just get to make the hard decision between doing the right thing and doing the easy thing, and how, I love that it's hard and epic and not easy."
I agree up to a point. For the same reason i appreciate that the Mass can be found celebrated in each of our native languages and not solely in Latin, i believe that liturgical music can also be in a "language" which is relevant to those listening (and hopefully joining in on) . I don't mean this with respect to instrumentation (I personally think rock style combos are simply inappropriate for Mass) but with respect to composition styles of our time. There's no reason that the music as well as the lyrics shouldn't speak the same "language" that the congregants are familiar with. I'm sure that "traditional" liturgical music was at one time in line with the music of that day. As a musician myself, I often find the out dated chord progressions and march-like rhythms aggravating to my ear and it makes it more difficult to fully embrace that part of the liturgy. It's true that most people who leave the Catholic church don't do it because of the Mass but instead do it out of ignorance of the Mass. But wouldn't it be great if everyone not only knew the Mass, but could also find a connection with the Mass in their daily life?
That Kanye icon made me feel some sorta way
You and I see everything exactly the same. I wish you were my next door neighbor! Nice Les Paul's btw.
VIVA CHRISTO REY
Very Good Video, I didn't think it was anything about Tridentine vs Novus Ordo , to be honest in relation to the issue of music, for example, have always kind of hated modern music, particularly folksy stuff in a church. It is generally a poor imitation of perfectly good secular stuff so it ends up sounding like sentimental defanged blandness. Traditional music is the way to go, although I would add one caveat, in that all culture changes, even if it seems imperceptible, so there is no problem with somebody writing or singing something new in an old format, for example, new Gregorian chants , otherwise a culture will fossilize if no change ever occurs. One other form of church music that is not as ancient as traditional church music is the black Gospel music of the USA which I have to admit has great spiritual power born out of the Christian slave experience. Although Catholic myself I once attended a black protestant gospel church service in NYC and was very impressed with the beauty and power of this rich spiritual music, so I'm open to some ideas here.
Jonathan O Mahony what you say about black gospel music is exactly how I feel. It’s clearly not secular yet it’s not ancient. Especially old hymn music. It’s very reverent.
@BVale well yes I didn't say I would try it myself, I haven't a note in my head and yes it might indeed be a sort of cultural appropriation in some cases, that said I have also seen a predominantly white gospel choirs sing at a wedding in Dublin and they could indeed sing well, also I'm fairly sure there must be at least some predominantly black Catholic gospel music churches in some parts of the USA ( I know they are generally 90 protestant but I seem to remember a statistic from many years ago that about 10% of black people in the USA are catholic, so I'd be interested to know if there is any local traditions of this music in catholic churches with predominantly black congregations ?