farmer's daughter, from clay county & appreciate Will for all he has done. but now living in California & being vegan for over 10 years I would love to see a health food revolution in the South. too much industrial farming taking over small farms. organic small vegan farms deserve subsidies too. thank you for hosting this Ellen :D
@Morgan Hope maybe because veggies aren't subsidized by the government like meat, milk & eggs. if we knew & paid the true cost for these no one could afford them.
@Morgan Hope large scale ag is difficult to profit from. This should have been brought up in the conversation. Our little 1/2 acre veganic farm La Ferme de l'Aube grossed $18,000-$20,000 per year from 2018-2022 selling seeds, seedlings and fruits, veggies and herbs. After expenses net profit was $8,000-$10,000. It is not uncommon for small-scale biointensive veggie farms to be able to gross $40,000-$50,000/acre. No large scale veggie or animal farm can match those numbers. So, it is like what you say we need more young people farming with easier access to land and start-up materials (greenhouses, fencing, irrigation, tools, etc.)
The counter viewpoint may not be trendy so extra kudos to Ellen for shining light on this topic in the face of animal agriculture green washing and deceptive “ancestral” social media trends. Ellen’s making a difference by producing this content. She doesn’t tailor her content for likes or $, she’s trying to make a difference. I think it’s brave and confident to give the both sides of the debate a mic.
Funny he mentions the Netherlands. Where the RIVM's reseach was distrusted, so the industry did one themselves. It was even more devastating. Our soil and surface water are in the worst state of Europe. 80% of our insects are gone. half our farmers are gone, but the amount of animals stayed the same. We are one of the smallest countries, the 2nd largest importer of soy, have the 2nd largest meat and dairy export in the world. Only the manure stays here, with detrimental consequences. 1/3 of EU subsidies goes to agricultute, 70% of that to animal agriculture. for less than 1.5% of our GNP. The only conclusion possible, is that this industry, especially in my country, is morally and financially bankrupt. And many agree. The landslide victory of the farmers party, was not their own gain. But because the ruling parties have been f*cking up the required actions for 14 years and now it is almost too late.
As one of the panelists my takeaway from this debate is that going forward if we wish to restore and heal our planet we must change our agricultural systems to diversified small-scale plant-based methods. It gives us the best opportunity to grow vastly more food, calories, proteins, vitamins and minerals per acre and let the vast majority re-wild for the sake of all beings we share this collective planet with :)
Is it a crazy suggestion that we could go back to growing our own food? Coming from Australia, growing up in the 1980s and before everyone had vegetable gardens and perhaps chickens. It was a more productive use of land than nowadays where backyards are taken up by larger and larger houses, swimming pools, concrete slabs etc. People are all in busy, hyper-specialized professions and have no time or interest in the simple and rewarding pleasures of home-gardening and producing your own food (food is life). I feel this has benefitted corporations at the expense of us being human beings.
I think that within animal agriculture there has to be a distinction between large and small scale. A backyard coop or small meat rabbit colony is a VERY different system than a massive beef operation. These small scale animal operations are often a benefit to the land they are on thru their production of fertilizer thru waste products in the form of weeds and even vegetable trimmings off the main harvest. It's an important distinction to make that is often overlooked in these kinds of talks.
@@hopslopscanada you are absolutely correct. Backyard systems are very different than what Will Harris is modeling, which is still a very large animal raising operation. But on a small scale it is still a larger benefit for the land to use solely plants to raise plants. Most 'weeds' when decomposed, fermented (into plant-based tea) or cut and composted make excellent nutrient dense compost and fertilizer. Backyard laying chickens are still unfortunately subjected to the same monoculture growing of corn and soy as this is still their primary if not secondary feed source to insects and garden veggies. Plus there are massive regional concentrated chicken breeding operations that sort the chicks, discard the males and ship them state and province wide by mail. There is also the ethical question, which was not talked about as much, which is: Do humans have the right to dominate rabbits for their meat and raise them solely for that purpose, as opposed to having them as companion animals to live their lives freely.
@@jimmyvidele-veganicgrower1482 I understand the points that you're making, but unless you're going under the assumption that 100% of the human population on planet Earth is going to go vegan, you need to put in a plan for some sort of meat supply. I don't think that it is particularly attainable that 100% of the human population of Earth will be vegan, especially in the next 5 years. Given that, and the fact that both chickens and rabbits feed a population while also creating fertilizer all while they are sustained primarily from scraps from the land, I think you've dismissed them a little too quickly. What would be your alternative? What are you suggesting that meat eaters eat? Or are you suggesting that unless the entire earth goes vegan we're doomed.
@@hopslopscanada all interesting comments. And this is a tough and very complex question. Because even though I wish to see a world 100% free of animal exploitation I understand that it will take some time. Aside from some cultures that are completely reliant on animal products to survive, like the masai, the Inuit, and other off-grid indigenous fishing cultures most people who eat meat could switch to a whole foods plant-based way of eating that would include beans, chickpeas, lentils, soybeans, whole grains, nuts, seeds, fruits and vegetables pretty quickly. If I look at my own path, it took me 10 months from being a lacto-ovo vegetarian with some "grass-fed" meats to become 100% vegan. First I cut all dairy, then all eggs, the last was grass fed beef. That was nine years ago. A wide diversity of plant food sources has been my key to very good health. So, if everyone followed that path it may only take a year or two. I don't have all the answers but I do have a vision of what a 100% plant-based future world would look like and it would be quite a Garden of Eden.
I am a cattle producer living in northern British Columbia (side note, less than 11% of Canadian land is privately owned). I don’t believe that being vegan is more environmentally friendly as a blanket statement, but I have listened to Ellen fisher for years because I like to be open and see the other side (plus you give the best birth advice ❤) A person I suggest giving a listen if you want to look at regenerative agriculture is Richard Perkins, owner of Ridgedale Farms. He has a TH-cam channel and is a wealth of knowledge regarding soil health and land design.
Everyone that says things like "I don't believe being vegan is more environmentally friendly as a blanket statement" never has anything to back that up. Do you have any sources that suggest veganism is worse overall for the environment than any other system of agriculture and diet?
@@PeterBalfor well to be honest I don’t believe in any blanket statements. The world/people are way too complicated for any one fact to be true for everyone/everything. Vegan is a great health option for some people, for others it is detrimental to their health. But I doubt we will agree on this topic so let’s not become keyboard warriors. What I do struggle with is this re-wilding agenda. North America has so much protected land in the name of national/state/provincial parks, which is great! But, the amount of agriculture land that is lost to development per year is staggering and those lands cannot be replaced. I also believe in looking at how our decisions effect people/land in other countries (the Amazon rainforest comes to mind, supplying the beyond beef company). Nothing is simple, so can we stop pretending that it is.
Thank you Ellen for another episode of your fantastic podcast. I have a heart for animals and I have no intention of eating them. My biggest regret is that I did not become vegan much sooner than I did.
It's funny they are even having a debate since they actually agree on so much and are both advocating for (or in Will's case, actively doing something) positive for the environment.
Great debate. My conclusion is both regenerative ag for plants and animals is needed. Why not do both? One thing I definitely found a bit creepy is mention of social credit scores for adherence. Yikes. Trying to force people into something that’s “better for them” sounds just as bad as colonialism. Like everyone agreed, this topic is nuanced. As people within cultures and life ways, we are sometimes very different. How do we honor this and the earth we live on? Why not try everything that is good? I think everything these guys talked about was valid. How about we start from there.
Ellen! I love your channel and I love love love how you have these "debates" because it gives so much knowledge. Like I LOVE the prochoice vs prolife one! Girl, you are something else. Lots of love :)
This is fantastic content. Very informative for appreciating both sides of the argument. Thanks Will, Jason, Nicholas and Jimmy and of course Ellen for organizing and facilitating this.👏
As a vegan, it was still nice to hear what Will is doing from an environmental standpoint. Yes, it would be better to turn grasslands back into forests and return natural predators but at least Will is doing something positive.
I like Mr. Harris's way of running his Farm. We need People all over the Earth Who have the land and resource's to get on Board and help to regenerate this ways of meat farming. Our earth is dying and something must change.
Vegan doesn't work for so many. As nice of a dream as it may be, the reality is that it is not a sustainable lifestyle for a lot people, otherwise more people would be and would stay vegan. (Kudos to you if it works for you, but neither side holds more moral virtue than the other). I really love what Will Harris is doing with his regenerative farming. He is such an inspiration! I so appreciate his wisdom and dedication to championing sustainable agriculture practices that lead to good land stewardship practices, natual living for the live stock, and high quality meat for those who need it. Thank you so much for sharing his work and hosting interesting conversations.
What is missing in your hypothesis, is the fact that people don’t like change. They don’t like giving up their habits, especially ones that include taste pleasure from animal products that have been heavily marketed and shoved down their throats, and made people to be addicted to them. So this is one reason why people “aren’t vegan”. Another thing you’ve overlooked, is the fact that just because someone is what they call an “x vegan”, does not mean a properly planned plant based diet didn’t work for them. What it usually means is that someone tried out some sort of trend or diet, didn’t execute it properly, usually lacking proper incentive and knowledge, and then went back to eating animals without seeing a plant based expert and blood tests. Kind of like people try out the gym in January, and quit by February. I’m not even an expert and 95% of the time when I hear the story of an “x vegan”- I can figure out where they went wrong. One very common reason is eating only raw, which no experts will stand by. Another reason is not allowing their body /gut to adapt to increased fibre and the conversion of minerals that needs to take place , and takes some time for the body. And speaking of experts, it is the consensus of dietetic associations around the world, that plant based diets are Healthy for all stages of life, and plants offer all the human body needs. For some it may rake some time, but the animals deserve it. I think the real dream is thinking that we can somehow breed and kill 80 billion animals each year in some kind of humane way. There is nothing special about the vegans who are successful and stick with the lifestyle, they just had the right incentive and know how. And we should continue to advocate for plant based eating, for all those people who will hear the logical message and adhere to it, which will result in massive change. Eventually there will be lab meat and slaughter will be phased out. And even people who incorrectly believe they need rotting flesh to sustain themselves , can choose the healthier version of flesh from a lab if they desire which is devoid of all the nasty crap that comes with 99% of meat these days - abhorrent cruelty, antibiotics, environmental destruction, disease, risk of pandemics, desertification , species extinction., slaughterhouse workers suffering from ptsd and trauma, etc etc.
This is the stupidest logic i've ever heard. From that point, we can just say that not abusing alcohol, drugs, and cigarettes, swaying away from sedentary lifestyles, and isn't sustainable. The truth is that people are: a) creatures of habit b) easily influenced by culture, societal norms, and marketing and c) utility maximizers. The barrier to going and staying vegan has nothing to do with sustainability. In any case, it is more environmentally sustainable, better for your long-term health, and cheaper to be vegan. The true barrier is a lack of impetus to change. Anti-competitive tactics from the meat industry to demonize plant-based alternatives and sources of nutrition (e.g., "Soy-boy" is an insult). Mere decades ago smoking was the norm. Does that mean that NOT smoking was an unsustainable lifestyle for most? Obviously not.
@ASOT666 exactly! I also would add a morality standpoint. People thought that abolishing slavery was bad for the economy, and slaves were better off as slaves. Women's rights weren't good for society and family values. Breaking tradition is not a good idea...well, just because. We've made all types of excuses in the past to resist change that were later implemented and turned out to be obvious improvements to civilization.
All I want for Christmas is for people not to get their info and “facts” from the comments section. 😬 Also…did anyone notice this debate is about the environment? Not health. ✌🏼
@@carinaekstrom1 I'm sorry I don't agree, though I do agree that a whole unprocessed plant based diet will make people who have been eating processed foods all their lives feel better, at least for a short time. I know so many people who have been vegan, including myself, I was also raw vegan for a time, and was growing my own produce and eating extremely 'well' and my insomnia and bloating, extremely pale skin, inconsistent energy highs and lows with a general fatigue, a sudden drop in b12 that was serious and too many other issues to name made me realize this was not natural for my body. Almost every person I have ever talked to about it has had a similar experience.
@@roberta4522 A lot of people have a gut dysbiosis, especially if they have been eating an ultra processed diet with animal foods and a lack of fiber their whole life. Some people just don't know how to compose a healthy vegan diet. It's very hard to get enough calories and nutrients on raw foods only. Humans have adapted their guts to eat some cooked foods, and a B12 supplement is a necessity, especially if you didn't eat fortified foods. A whole foods, varied vegan diet has the best possibility of being the most optimal for healthy humans. You can get away with eating minimal amounts of animal products, like a few %, but personally I prefer a B12 pill.
@@carinaekstrom1 I'm glad it works for you..I know for some people it can be done and works well for them. The way I was eating was 100% unprocessed, and was genuinely really well informed. I think I ate as well as or better than almost every vegan influencer I see on here. I also was raised on home cooked meals. My grandmother grew a majority of her own food and my mom grew up in rural England next door to a dairy farmer whose milk she drank every day, and she's extremely healthy with really healthy bones and bone structure. My ancestors ate fish and lamb, and drank milk for many thousands of years. There are nutrients in animal foods you really can't get from plants, that are especially nourishing for women who are pregnant or trying to conceive. I'm sorry I just don't agree.
im using horses.... and birds.... that we dont eat.... for regenerative agriculture.... we can incorporate animals.... without eating their meat. there does need to he more wild areas for bison, elk, caribou and deer for people who wish to et meat
Only oil wins, when you put brother against brother in Regenerative. As a leader in Regenerative, my 1981 breakthrough proved scaling up of Regenerative & could have united Regenerative, but the real problem is that bankers fail to fund it properly. #asiflifeonEarthMatters
I love this opposing view's debates, no matter which "side" you're on! I think future is in the plant's but as well I think it's very important where geographically you are, Eskimos would hardly be vegan, but I'm living on Mediterranean in blue zone, and I can do it, mild winters and very warm summers. But if all of us do a little step towards more plant's we will definitely help our Earth 🌍
As someone who was a dedicated Vegan for 20 years, who is spent over 30 years of his life working to understand the great amounts of research into this very subject, I can tell you the vegans on this panel are completely misleading you whether they know it or not. Veganism is a product of industrial civilization and fits in nowhere else. You can have RUMINANTS living in fully biodiverse ecosystems, but broccoli will not survive there. Full stop. Focusing on the uses of corn and soy as if it's a problem of animal agriculture, is an insane straw man argument. The vegan on here says he studies forests, ecosystems, wetlands, but has he found any broccoli or cabbage growing in any of those places? Oh, and where are all the vegan hunter-gatherers? There are zero.
So, the take away, allegedly plant agriculture is better for the environment, I'm not convinced it's better for our health though. We potentially can restore our planet by eating plants, but at the same time destroy our own health, I suppose it's best for the planet regardless? If we're all gone then it will thrive. To keep it in context, I believe human beings are designed to assimilate their nutrition mainly from meat and not plants. Plants got too many anti nutrients that actually interfere in nutrient absorption. I'm not saying that mass production of meat is better or worse, but I believe that meat is better for our bodies.
Whole food plant based diets are by far the healthiest diet for humans. See books referencing thousands of studies like ‘how not to die’ and the China study.
@@mayapapaya89 maybe it's healthiest compared to the processed shit we eat, but it is all relative. Is it optimal? I doubt anyone will tell us. Eat what makes YOU feel most optimal and healthiest.
Wow, this guy is the biggest hypocrite. He says he doesn't compare the regenerative models to the industrial models of livestock raising after he spent minutes and minutes doing exactly that. Then at 1:34:25 he DOES IT AGAIN. Why is nobody interrupting him to point this out?!?!?
What's so hard about understanding that if you are going to grow food sustainably, meat consumption has to be reduced? It will just happen automatically if you commit to growing foods sustainably. It's just a fact that there wont be a lot of animal products available when produced sustainably.
I agree with most of what you're saying, but that's not exactly true. It is WAY more work and requires so much more land for us to grow beans and grains on our 3 acres. We only have two acres that are 'developed'. It's much easier and yields much more food, when we have a garden, fruit trees, berries, AND sheep, chickens, and soon pigs and Muscovy ducks. Since we aren't at that point of sustaining ourselves, we do eat more plant based typically, to an extent. It is beyond expensive to eat plant based as a family of 5, with toddlers and infants that would need supplements, constantly ensuring they are getting enough nutrients, specifically fats, minerals, protein. I don't have the energy to do it all, and I just don't care for people's opinions. When they have twin infants, a toddler, and zero support other than a husband that works, they can tell me about how perfectly plant based they would be😂. Our country is failing, our school system, our food system, our medical system, our government. We will not be reliant on a store for our survival, because realistically, there is no way to be plant based if you're off grid, especially with children. Do you know how much time it takes to crack every single bean pod, or how expensive the machinery is to do so? Or harvesting grains, and how much land it takes and extensive it is breaking the hulls, even with a hand crank machine?
@@corablah9809 I don't see how using more land for animals can be more effective, or less work? I have lived around people that raised animals, and the work was never ending, whereas there are ways to grow trees, bushes, and perennial plants that reqire far less work. Less work also means cheaper, time is money. B12 pills cost almost nothing. If you want to add DHA/EPA it's also very cheap. Vit D if you don't get enough sun, also very cheap. If you eat a varied plant diet you don't have to take any other supplement. It's harder to get the right nutrients from a diet that don't have enough fiber and too much saturated fat. As you get older you probably need a B12 supplement regardless. Why do people assume that they are automatically getting everything they need when they add animal products? It's completely wrong. And no one should have to produce all of their own food as long as we have plenty of people that can do different things and cooperate. You seem to be talking about some unorganised emergency situation, like war. In those circumstances nothing will be perfect. But I am hoping for a more organised world where we can work things out together. I suggest you listen to PoliticsJOE's recent interview with George Monbiot. Monbiot describes the fantasy of "neo peasantry", and how it would cause mass starvation because we have nowhere close to the land it would require.
@@carinaekstrom1you basically said that you don't understand her lived experience, which she outlined suscinctly and specifically. It's a fact that animal foods are more calorie dense and nutrient dense than plant foods, especially when raised on their natural diets, not the soy and corn that's used in conventional animal agriculture. Compare the volume of food one needs to consume to take in the same amount of calories AND nutrients from plants vs animals, and one is vastly larger than the other. A whole cow can feed a family for a year, not exclusively, but mainly. How many pounds of plants does it take to feed that same family the same amount of calories and nutrients? And what kind of effort via human intervention or pesticides etc. does it take to harvest all those plants so the humans can actually eat them before the insects and squirrels and other critters? "Veganism" also doesn't take into account the millions of animals that are killed while tilling the fields and protecting the crops from said critters.
@@ah9175 There are a million ways to grow plants, and some require very little labor, especially when communities work together. Plant foods are generally more nutrient dense per calorie than animal foods, and that's why you don't have to eat particularly large volumes of it. Especially if it's cooked. Animal foods have an imbalance of nutrients for the human system, lacking many, whereas a variety of plants, including whole legumes, sprouts grains, seeds, nuts, greens, veggies, roots, bulbs and fruits, and the obvious supplements I mentioned will keep you perfectly nourished. Why eat an unhealthy food to get one particular nutrient that can easily be found outside of that food? You seem to think that animals and the food they eat require very little care. My experience is that they need a lot of time and work, they can't be left without supervision and care for even a day. There are also serious problems with animal husbandry, such as zoonotic diseases. Wild animals don't get special care of course, but animal husbandry is necessary for feeding the present population with meat. Wild, "edible" animals would all be gone within months if that was the only meat available. Vegans certainly know that there's no system that don't kill anything. But it should be self evident that a lot more life is lost when plants get eaten by animals that in turn also get eaten. Those plants are grown for the animals, even grass gets taken down with machines and stored for the winter. Vegans are trying to implement veganic farming methods that kill as little as possible.
So yes, lovely this channel - we agree on a lot - independent of the “political titles” that the Marxist overlords have ascribed to define, and divide us - we can have common ground - that in some form or another, regenerative land is important, the big ag has destroyed for decades, alongside big tech, and big pharma - monopolies that our laws lagged behind, and we could either see them for what they are and work to create local, community subsystems and processes to take power back (as well as donate to politicians/local figures who actually WANT to take them on) - or, let this rot, corruption, and poison continue to destroy our species
Will Harris is the wisest, most logical. Regen ag grows more nutrient dense foods, which means we need less volume. We need more farmers farming regeneratively. Each person should grow his or her own food (meat or produce) or purchase directly from a local farmer.
Regenerative farmers are building soil, boosting the numbers of species of plants and animals, and boost the nutrient density of all plants and animals. There should be ZERO tax incentives that currently go to BIG businesses that control the government. Joel Salatin and Nick Freitas both duscuss this issue.
Separating plants and animals is a reductionist mentality. Plants need soil, animals need plants, humans need nutrient dense foods. Studies are often paid for by entities that influence the findings.
@@theellenfisherpodcast Yes, the episodes relating to motherhood, health etc. But I'd like to see expert women on topics like these. Just my opinion, hope you didn't take it personally
Nick's thought experiments do not feed anyone. Will's farm feeds many people and boosted his farm's soils, plants, and animals and his farm's employees have rejuvinated the town's economy.
farmer's daughter, from clay county & appreciate Will for all he has done. but now living in California & being vegan for over 10 years I would love to see a health food revolution in the South. too much industrial farming taking over small farms. organic small vegan farms deserve subsidies too. thank you for hosting this Ellen :D
@Morgan Hope maybe because veggies aren't subsidized by the government like meat, milk & eggs. if we knew & paid the true cost for these no one could afford them.
@Morgan Hope large scale ag is difficult to profit from. This should have been brought up in the conversation. Our little 1/2 acre veganic farm La Ferme de l'Aube grossed $18,000-$20,000 per year from 2018-2022 selling seeds, seedlings and fruits, veggies and herbs. After expenses net profit was $8,000-$10,000. It is not uncommon for small-scale biointensive veggie farms to be able to gross $40,000-$50,000/acre. No large scale veggie or animal farm can match those numbers. So, it is like what you say we need more young people farming with easier access to land and start-up materials (greenhouses, fencing, irrigation, tools, etc.)
The counter viewpoint may not be trendy so extra kudos to Ellen for shining light on this topic in the face of animal agriculture green washing and deceptive “ancestral” social media trends. Ellen’s making a difference by producing this content. She doesn’t tailor her content for likes or $, she’s trying to make a difference. I think it’s brave and confident to give the both sides of the debate a mic.
Funny he mentions the Netherlands. Where the RIVM's reseach was distrusted, so the industry did one themselves. It was even more devastating. Our soil and surface water are in the worst state of Europe. 80% of our insects are gone. half our farmers are gone, but the amount of animals stayed the same. We are one of the smallest countries, the 2nd largest importer of soy, have the 2nd largest meat and dairy export in the world. Only the manure stays here, with detrimental consequences. 1/3 of EU subsidies goes to agricultute, 70% of that to animal agriculture. for less than 1.5% of our GNP. The only conclusion possible, is that this industry, especially in my country, is morally and financially bankrupt. And many agree. The landslide victory of the farmers party, was not their own gain. But because the ruling parties have been f*cking up the required actions for 14 years and now it is almost too late.
As one of the panelists my takeaway from this debate is that going forward if we wish to restore and heal our planet we must change our agricultural systems to diversified small-scale plant-based methods. It gives us the best opportunity to grow vastly more food, calories, proteins, vitamins and minerals per acre and let the vast majority re-wild for the sake of all beings we share this collective planet with :)
Is it a crazy suggestion that we could go back to growing our own food? Coming from Australia, growing up in the 1980s and before everyone had vegetable gardens and perhaps chickens. It was a more productive use of land than nowadays where backyards are taken up by larger and larger houses, swimming pools, concrete slabs etc. People are all in busy, hyper-specialized professions and have no time or interest in the simple and rewarding pleasures of home-gardening and producing your own food (food is life). I feel this has benefitted corporations at the expense of us being human beings.
I think that within animal agriculture there has to be a distinction between large and small scale. A backyard coop or small meat rabbit colony is a VERY different system than a massive beef operation. These small scale animal operations are often a benefit to the land they are on thru their production of fertilizer thru waste products in the form of weeds and even vegetable trimmings off the main harvest.
It's an important distinction to make that is often overlooked in these kinds of talks.
@@hopslopscanada you are absolutely correct. Backyard systems are very different than what Will Harris is modeling, which is still a very large animal raising operation. But on a small scale it is still a larger benefit for the land to use solely plants to raise plants. Most 'weeds' when decomposed, fermented (into plant-based tea) or cut and composted make excellent nutrient dense compost and fertilizer.
Backyard laying chickens are still unfortunately subjected to the same monoculture growing of corn and soy as this is still their primary if not secondary feed source to insects and garden veggies. Plus there are massive regional concentrated chicken breeding operations that sort the chicks, discard the males and ship them state and province wide by mail.
There is also the ethical question, which was not talked about as much, which is: Do humans have the right to dominate rabbits for their meat and raise them solely for that purpose, as opposed to having them as companion animals to live their lives freely.
@@jimmyvidele-veganicgrower1482 I understand the points that you're making, but unless you're going under the assumption that 100% of the human population on planet Earth is going to go vegan, you need to put in a plan for some sort of meat supply. I don't think that it is particularly attainable that 100% of the human population of Earth will be vegan, especially in the next 5 years. Given that, and the fact that both chickens and rabbits feed a population while also creating fertilizer all while they are sustained primarily from scraps from the land, I think you've dismissed them a little too quickly. What would be your alternative? What are you suggesting that meat eaters eat? Or are you suggesting that unless the entire earth goes vegan we're doomed.
@@hopslopscanada all interesting comments. And this is a tough and very complex question. Because even though I wish to see a world 100% free of animal exploitation I understand that it will take some time. Aside from some cultures that are completely reliant on animal products to survive, like the masai, the Inuit, and other off-grid indigenous fishing cultures most people who eat meat could switch to a whole foods plant-based way of eating that would include beans, chickpeas, lentils, soybeans, whole grains, nuts, seeds, fruits and vegetables pretty quickly. If I look at my own path, it took me 10 months from being a lacto-ovo vegetarian with some "grass-fed" meats to become 100% vegan. First I cut all dairy, then all eggs, the last was grass fed beef. That was nine years ago. A wide diversity of plant food sources has been my key to very good health. So, if everyone followed that path it may only take a year or two. I don't have all the answers but I do have a vision of what a 100% plant-based future world would look like and it would be quite a Garden of Eden.
I am a cattle producer living in northern British Columbia (side note, less than 11% of Canadian land is privately owned). I don’t believe that being vegan is more environmentally friendly as a blanket statement, but I have listened to Ellen fisher for years because I like to be open and see the other side (plus you give the best birth advice ❤)
A person I suggest giving a listen if you want to look at regenerative agriculture is Richard Perkins, owner of Ridgedale Farms. He has a TH-cam channel and is a wealth of knowledge regarding soil health and land design.
Everyone that says things like "I don't believe being vegan is more environmentally friendly as a blanket statement" never has anything to back that up. Do you have any sources that suggest veganism is worse overall for the environment than any other system of agriculture and diet?
@@PeterBalfor well to be honest I don’t believe in any blanket statements. The world/people are way too complicated for any one fact to be true for everyone/everything. Vegan is a great health option for some people, for others it is detrimental to their health. But I doubt we will agree on this topic so let’s not become keyboard warriors. What I do struggle with is this re-wilding agenda. North America has so much protected land in the name of national/state/provincial parks, which is great! But, the amount of agriculture land that is lost to development per year is staggering and those lands cannot be replaced. I also believe in looking at how our decisions effect people/land in other countries (the Amazon rainforest comes to mind, supplying the beyond beef company). Nothing is simple, so can we stop pretending that it is.
Thank you Ellen for another episode of your fantastic podcast. I have a heart for animals and I have no intention of eating them. My biggest regret is that I did not become vegan much sooner than I did.
It's funny they are even having a debate since they actually agree on so much and are both advocating for (or in Will's case, actively doing something) positive for the environment.
I agree
Great debate. My conclusion is both regenerative ag for plants and animals is needed. Why not do both? One thing I definitely found a bit creepy is mention of social credit scores for adherence. Yikes. Trying to force people into something that’s “better for them” sounds just as bad as colonialism. Like everyone agreed, this topic is nuanced. As people within cultures and life ways, we are sometimes very different. How do we honor this and the earth we live on? Why not try everything that is good? I think everything these guys talked about was valid. How about we start from there.
Ellen! I love your channel and I love love love how you have these "debates" because it gives so much knowledge. Like I LOVE the prochoice vs prolife one! Girl, you are something else. Lots of love :)
This is fantastic content. Very informative for appreciating both sides of the argument. Thanks Will, Jason, Nicholas and Jimmy and of course Ellen for organizing and facilitating this.👏
As a vegan, it was still nice to hear what Will is doing from an environmental standpoint. Yes, it would be better to turn grasslands back into forests and return natural predators but at least Will is doing something positive.
The land masses go through succession. A woods is not a static thing.
I like Mr. Harris's way of running his Farm. We need People all over the Earth Who have the land and resource's to get on Board and help to regenerate this ways of meat farming. Our earth is dying and something must change.
Your debate episodes are my absolute favorite. You're amazing Ellen, thank you for everything you do! 🌿
Loved listening to this one. So interesting to hear both sides. Keep doing stuff like this Ellen.❤
Vegan doesn't work for so many. As nice of a dream as it may be, the reality is that it is not a sustainable lifestyle for a lot people, otherwise more people would be and would stay vegan. (Kudos to you if it works for you, but neither side holds more moral virtue than the other). I really love what Will Harris is doing with his regenerative farming. He is such an inspiration! I so appreciate his wisdom and dedication to championing sustainable agriculture practices that lead to good land stewardship practices, natual living for the live stock, and high quality meat for those who need it. Thank you so much for sharing his work and hosting interesting conversations.
What is missing in your hypothesis, is the fact that people don’t like change. They don’t like giving up their habits, especially ones that include taste pleasure from animal products that have been heavily marketed and shoved down their throats, and made people to be addicted to them. So this is one reason why people “aren’t vegan”. Another thing you’ve overlooked, is the fact that just because someone is what they call an “x vegan”, does not mean a properly planned plant based diet didn’t work for them. What it usually means is that someone tried out some sort of trend or diet, didn’t execute it properly, usually lacking proper incentive and knowledge, and then went back to eating animals without seeing a plant based expert and blood tests. Kind of like people try out the gym in January, and quit by February. I’m not even an expert and 95% of the time when I hear the story of an “x vegan”- I can figure out where they went wrong. One very common reason is eating only raw, which no experts will stand by. Another reason is not allowing their body /gut to adapt to increased fibre and the conversion of minerals that needs to take place , and takes some time for the body. And speaking of experts, it is the consensus of dietetic associations around the world, that plant based diets are Healthy for all stages of life, and plants offer all the human body needs. For some it may rake some time, but the animals deserve it. I think the real dream is thinking that we can somehow breed and kill 80 billion animals each year in some kind of humane way. There is nothing special about the vegans who are successful and stick with the lifestyle, they just had the right incentive and know how. And we should continue to advocate for plant based eating, for all those people who will hear the logical message and adhere to it, which will result in massive change. Eventually there will be lab meat and slaughter will be phased out. And even people who incorrectly believe they need rotting flesh to sustain themselves , can choose the healthier version of flesh from a lab if they desire which is devoid of all the nasty crap that comes with 99% of meat these days - abhorrent cruelty, antibiotics, environmental destruction, disease, risk of pandemics, desertification , species extinction., slaughterhouse workers suffering from ptsd and trauma, etc etc.
@@seanogorman3617well said
This is the stupidest logic i've ever heard. From that point, we can just say that not abusing alcohol, drugs, and cigarettes, swaying away from sedentary lifestyles, and isn't sustainable.
The truth is that people are:
a) creatures of habit
b) easily influenced by culture, societal norms, and marketing and
c) utility maximizers.
The barrier to going and staying vegan has nothing to do with sustainability. In any case, it is more environmentally sustainable, better for your long-term health, and cheaper to be vegan.
The true barrier is a lack of impetus to change. Anti-competitive tactics from the meat industry to demonize plant-based alternatives and sources of nutrition (e.g., "Soy-boy" is an insult). Mere decades ago smoking was the norm. Does that mean that NOT smoking was an unsustainable lifestyle for most? Obviously not.
@ASOT666 exactly! I also would add a morality standpoint. People thought that abolishing slavery was bad for the economy, and slaves were better off as slaves. Women's rights weren't good for society and family values. Breaking tradition is not a good idea...well, just because.
We've made all types of excuses in the past to resist change that were later implemented and turned out to be obvious improvements to civilization.
Veganism is also not sustainable for the environment.
All I want for Christmas is for people not to get their info and “facts” from the comments section. 😬
Also…did anyone notice this debate is about the environment? Not health. ✌🏼
Of course, but it's still referencing a way of eating that doesn't work for a large amount of people for health reasons.
@@roberta4522 But most people would benefit greatly on a healthy vegan diet.
@@carinaekstrom1 I'm sorry I don't agree, though I do agree that a whole unprocessed plant based diet will make people who have been eating processed foods all their lives feel better, at least for a short time. I know so many people who have been vegan, including myself, I was also raw vegan for a time, and was growing my own produce and eating extremely 'well' and my insomnia and bloating, extremely pale skin, inconsistent energy highs and lows with a general fatigue, a sudden drop in b12 that was serious and too many other issues to name made me realize this was not natural for my body. Almost every person I have ever talked to about it has had a similar experience.
@@roberta4522 A lot of people have a gut dysbiosis, especially if they have been eating an ultra processed diet with animal foods and a lack of fiber their whole life. Some people just don't know how to compose a healthy vegan diet. It's very hard to get enough calories and nutrients on raw foods only. Humans have adapted their guts to eat some cooked foods, and a B12 supplement is a necessity, especially if you didn't eat fortified foods. A whole foods, varied vegan diet has the best possibility of being the most optimal for healthy humans. You can get away with eating minimal amounts of animal products, like a few %, but personally I prefer a B12 pill.
@@carinaekstrom1 I'm glad it works for you..I know for some people it can be done and works well for them. The way I was eating was 100% unprocessed, and was genuinely really well informed. I think I ate as well as or better than almost every vegan influencer I see on here. I also was raised on home cooked meals. My grandmother grew a majority of her own food and my mom grew up in rural England next door to a dairy farmer whose milk she drank every day, and she's extremely healthy with really healthy bones and bone structure. My ancestors ate fish and lamb, and drank milk for many thousands of years. There are nutrients in animal foods you really can't get from plants, that are especially nourishing for women who are pregnant or trying to conceive. I'm sorry I just don't agree.
im using horses.... and birds.... that we dont eat.... for regenerative agriculture.... we can incorporate animals.... without eating their meat. there does need to he more wild areas for bison, elk, caribou and deer for people who wish to et meat
Only oil wins, when you put brother against brother in Regenerative.
As a leader in Regenerative, my 1981 breakthrough proved scaling up of Regenerative & could have united Regenerative, but the real problem is that bankers fail to fund it properly.
#asiflifeonEarthMatters
easy cope is being on right side of history
I'm focusing on that energy as you are writing this comment #humunoid @humanoid
I love this opposing view's debates, no matter which "side" you're on! I think future is in the plant's but as well I think it's very important where geographically you are, Eskimos would hardly be vegan, but I'm living on Mediterranean in blue zone, and I can do it, mild winters and very warm summers. But if all of us do a little step towards more plant's we will definitely help our Earth 🌍
No reason Eskimos can't be vegan as long as they have access to shops and/or mail service.
As someone who was a dedicated Vegan for 20 years, who is spent over 30 years of his life working to understand the great amounts of research into this very subject, I can tell you the vegans on this panel are completely misleading you whether they know it or not.
Veganism is a product of industrial civilization and fits in nowhere else.
You can have RUMINANTS living in fully biodiverse ecosystems, but broccoli will not survive there. Full stop.
Focusing on the uses of corn and soy as if it's a problem of animal agriculture, is an insane straw man argument.
The vegan on here says he studies forests, ecosystems, wetlands, but has he found any broccoli or cabbage growing in any of those places?
Oh, and where are all the vegan hunter-gatherers? There are zero.
So excited to listen to this one! I love your podcast Ellen.
Yay, thank you!
So, the take away, allegedly plant agriculture is better for the environment, I'm not convinced it's better for our health though. We potentially can restore our planet by eating plants, but at the same time destroy our own health, I suppose it's best for the planet regardless? If we're all gone then it will thrive. To keep it in context, I believe human beings are designed to assimilate their nutrition mainly from meat and not plants. Plants got too many anti nutrients that actually interfere in nutrient absorption. I'm not saying that mass production of meat is better or worse, but I believe that meat is better for our bodies.
Statistically a whole food plant based diet is the most healthy there is.
Whole food plant based diets are by far the healthiest diet for humans. See books referencing thousands of studies like ‘how not to die’ and the China study.
@@mayapapaya89 maybe it's healthiest compared to the processed shit we eat, but it is all relative. Is it optimal? I doubt anyone will tell us. Eat what makes YOU feel most optimal and healthiest.
We need animal fats so our brain synapses function properly, so our hormones are well regulated, and to feel satiated when we eat.
Wow, this guy is the biggest hypocrite. He says he doesn't compare the regenerative models to the industrial models of livestock raising after he spent minutes and minutes doing exactly that.
Then at 1:34:25 he DOES IT AGAIN. Why is nobody interrupting him to point this out?!?!?
What's so hard about understanding that if you are going to grow food sustainably, meat consumption has to be reduced? It will just happen automatically if you commit to growing foods sustainably. It's just a fact that there wont be a lot of animal products available when produced sustainably.
I agree with most of what you're saying, but that's not exactly true. It is WAY more work and requires so much more land for us to grow beans and grains on our 3 acres. We only have two acres that are 'developed'. It's much easier and yields much more food, when we have a garden, fruit trees, berries, AND sheep, chickens, and soon pigs and Muscovy ducks. Since we aren't at that point of sustaining ourselves, we do eat more plant based typically, to an extent. It is beyond expensive to eat plant based as a family of 5, with toddlers and infants that would need supplements, constantly ensuring they are getting enough nutrients, specifically fats, minerals, protein. I don't have the energy to do it all, and I just don't care for people's opinions. When they have twin infants, a toddler, and zero support other than a husband that works, they can tell me about how perfectly plant based they would be😂. Our country is failing, our school system, our food system, our medical system, our government. We will not be reliant on a store for our survival, because realistically, there is no way to be plant based if you're off grid, especially with children. Do you know how much time it takes to crack every single bean pod, or how expensive the machinery is to do so? Or harvesting grains, and how much land it takes and extensive it is breaking the hulls, even with a hand crank machine?
@@corablah9809 I don't see how using more land for animals can be more effective, or less work? I have lived around people that raised animals, and the work was never ending, whereas there are ways to grow trees, bushes, and perennial plants that reqire far less work. Less work also means cheaper, time is money.
B12 pills cost almost nothing. If you want to add DHA/EPA it's also very cheap. Vit D if you don't get enough sun, also very cheap. If you eat a varied plant diet you don't have to take any other supplement. It's harder to get the right nutrients from a diet that don't have enough fiber and too much saturated fat. As you get older you probably need a B12 supplement regardless. Why do people assume that they are automatically getting everything they need when they add animal products? It's completely wrong.
And no one should have to produce all of their own food as long as we have plenty of people that can do different things and cooperate. You seem to be talking about some unorganised emergency situation, like war. In those circumstances nothing will be perfect. But I am hoping for a more organised world where we can work things out together. I suggest you listen to PoliticsJOE's recent interview with George Monbiot. Monbiot describes the fantasy of "neo peasantry", and how it would cause mass starvation because we have nowhere close to the land it would require.
@@carinaekstrom1 "the fantasy of neo-peasantry" has such an amazing ring to it, 10000% stealing that
@@carinaekstrom1you basically said that you don't understand her lived experience, which she outlined suscinctly and specifically. It's a fact that animal foods are more calorie dense and nutrient dense than plant foods, especially when raised on their natural diets, not the soy and corn that's used in conventional animal agriculture. Compare the volume of food one needs to consume to take in the same amount of calories AND nutrients from plants vs animals, and one is vastly larger than the other. A whole cow can feed a family for a year, not exclusively, but mainly. How many pounds of plants does it take to feed that same family the same amount of calories and nutrients? And what kind of effort via human intervention or pesticides etc. does it take to harvest all those plants so the humans can actually eat them before the insects and squirrels and other critters? "Veganism" also doesn't take into account the millions of animals that are killed while tilling the fields and protecting the crops from said critters.
@@ah9175 There are a million ways to grow plants, and some require very little labor, especially when communities work together. Plant foods are generally more nutrient dense per calorie than animal foods, and that's why you don't have to eat particularly large volumes of it. Especially if it's cooked. Animal foods have an imbalance of nutrients for the human system, lacking many, whereas a variety of plants, including whole legumes, sprouts grains, seeds, nuts, greens, veggies, roots, bulbs and fruits, and the obvious supplements I mentioned will keep you perfectly nourished. Why eat an unhealthy food to get one particular nutrient that can easily be found outside of that food?
You seem to think that animals and the food they eat require very little care. My experience is that they need a lot of time and work, they can't be left without supervision and care for even a day. There are also serious problems with animal husbandry, such as zoonotic diseases. Wild animals don't get special care of course, but animal husbandry is necessary for feeding the present population with meat. Wild, "edible" animals would all be gone within months if that was the only meat available.
Vegans certainly know that there's no system that don't kill anything. But it should be self evident that a lot more life is lost when plants get eaten by animals that in turn also get eaten. Those plants are grown for the animals, even grass gets taken down with machines and stored for the winter. Vegans are trying to implement veganic farming methods that kill as little as possible.
Tried to watch this for a while but adverts every 5 minutes makes it impossible.
So yes, lovely this channel - we agree on a lot - independent of the “political titles” that the Marxist overlords have ascribed to define, and divide us - we can have common ground - that in some form or another, regenerative land is important, the big ag has destroyed for decades, alongside big tech, and big pharma - monopolies that our laws lagged behind, and we could either see them for what they are and work to create local, community subsystems and processes to take power back (as well as donate to politicians/local figures who actually WANT to take them on) - or, let this rot, corruption, and poison continue to destroy our species
Not mutually exclusive.
I'm on grandpa's side
Will Harris is the wisest, most logical. Regen ag grows more nutrient dense foods, which means we need less volume. We need more farmers farming regeneratively. Each person should grow his or her own food (meat or produce) or purchase directly from a local farmer.
Nick needs to check out Regenified certification.
Ellen, do you not use blue land anymore??
First thoughts, Yovana and her husband would’ve been good candidates for the meat based side.
Regenerative farmers are building soil, boosting the numbers of species of plants and animals, and boost the nutrient density of all plants and animals. There should be ZERO tax incentives that currently go to BIG businesses that control the government. Joel Salatin and Nick Freitas both duscuss this issue.
Nick ought to get the golf courses and lawn owners to stop using artificial fertilizers, herbicides, inecticides to save the environment.
Separating plants and animals is a reductionist mentality. Plants need soil, animals need plants, humans need nutrient dense foods. Studies are often paid for by entities that influence the findings.
Would be nice to see some women on your channel ❤❤❤
what are you talking about? More than half of my episodes are with women....
Ellen is a woman.
@@theellenfisherpodcast Yes, the episodes relating to motherhood, health etc. But I'd like to see expert women on topics like these. Just my opinion, hope you didn't take it personally
Michaela Peterson would be great for the Lion Diet that she follows.
Nick's thought experiments do not feed anyone. Will's farm feeds many people and boosted his farm's soils, plants, and animals and his farm's employees have rejuvinated the town's economy.
Nick thinks every thing is too complex for anyone else to understand. Will pegs him correctly, pompous.
Nick needs to get out in the fields and see regen ag in practice.