EVs - Range Loss
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 มิ.ย. 2024
- In this video, I discuss how battery degradation affects the range of an EV over its lifetime. Does degradation mean that an EV is not something we can easily keep for the long term?
This is the latest in a series of videos sharing my knowledge and experience with electric cars. EVs have improved immensely over the last few years, and we are at a point where I think the majority of people can make the switch to electric.
00:00 - Introduction
00:19 - Why is degradation relevant?
01:45 - My viewer's concern
02:46 - Valid points made
03:20 - WLTP figures
03:37 - Real world range
05:31 - Warranty impact on range
06:34 - Gaming the warranty
09:18 - Real world measurements
10:00 - Geotab
11:42 - Understanding the effects
14:02 - The LEAF's impacts on old results
16:32 - A managed future
17:33 - Which survey
18:16 - A word of warning
19:07 - Tesla impact report
19:41 - Expected degradation
19:58 - The impact of degradation
20:36 - A more realistic scenario
21:45 - Summary
Resources used in the making of this video:
Geotab
www.geotab.com/uk/blog/ev-bat...
storage.googleapis.com/geotab...
IEEE - Battery Degradation in Electric and Hybrid Electric Vehicles: A Survey Study
ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/...
Which Battery Degradation Survey
www.which.co.uk/news/article/...
Tesla 2023 Impact Report
www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2023-...
The aim of my channel is to provide knowledge and plain speaking about the transition we all face. I hope you will join me for other videos on the move towards a renewable energy future. I will be covering plenty more about EVs, but will also be sharing my experiences as I look into energy generation and electric heating. - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
I drive a 20 year old ICE car, and when new it would do 35MPG, after 20 years it does around 28MPG. Degradation of range is not limited to EVs.
That's an interesting data point, thanks. It makes sense that wear of the piston rings and other parts of the engine can reduce fuel efficiency. It's not something I have witnessed my in my smart ForTwo, but due to my mum's driving habits, it's still quite a low mileage car, despite reaching 25 years old
I suspect it just needs a tune up. If you don't get it serviced and look after it you will use more fuel. C02 is not a problem at all. That is a sacm. My Land Rover Defender (100k) still uses the same as it did when In bought it 20 years ago.
Yes I bet that Landie has been burning very little fuel for those twenty years 🙂@@johnnythefox1851
@@theelectrictransition My mileage is just over 230,000 miles so far, but then it is a Volvo :)
For people who only know normal units, 35MPG = 6.72 litres/100km and 28MPG = 8.4 litres / 100km
"degradation" could just be down to a faulty cell, module or a controller board. The battery repair industry is just getting started so a repair could improve the battery.
That's true. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. If a car's total capacity dips significantly in a short space of time, or the car stops driving before the car predicted it, then that suggests a single cell is likely at fault. As you say, we need the independent specialist market to evolve to be able to repair rather than just replace a complete pack. It'll surely happen, but as with any transition, we need to reach a critical mass before certain subsections of the service market can evolve
I imagine the risk for any battery repair business will be very high and insurance will be sky-high.
Only problem is that its a lot of work still to remove a battery, take it apart, find the faulty cell, change it, get it together with all seals, and up again. It feels like a $4k repair. And I can not imagine any car manufactor wants to have random repair shops doing this, since its a big risk something goes wrong, and the car manucfactor does not want to get blamed if the car burns down. I saw BYD starting to integrate the batterys into the chassis also, not sure if its modules or actually like non repairable cells that you can not remove
@@AndrewTSq The industry is already there but its early in its development. If its in the 7 year warranty period, the manufacturer will just replace it. This is for when the battery is out of warranty. They will have fully qualified technicians with proper tools for the job and doing the job because they don't want to be electrocuted.
I think Tesla have also made the battery case part of the structure but its still bolted in and removable.
@@MA-kt8ly Probably be the same for any EV garage, they'll have to have fully qualified staff and proper tools for the job (unless its a cowboy outfit)
I bought a Chevrolet Spark EV in 2013. It has a 19 kWh battery. When new it was rated at 84 miles of range. It is early technology. Cheap. Every night for the past 11 years it’s been charged to 100%. It’s been driven down to 5 or 10% or less many times. Now, after 66,000 miles, on cold days it charges to about 50 miles. However, when I drive it, the batteries warm and the range is extended another 10 or 15 miles. It’s not unusual for me to drive 40 miles in the morning, then come home and put it on the charger and go out in the evening and drive another 40 miles. I plan to keep it until somebody comes out with a really great $25,000 EV.
What do I do when I need to make a long trip? Every now and then gas up my other car.
Ooh, a Chevy Spark owner! Congratulations, I'm glad it's serving you well. Yes, as you say, an early car - indeed a compliance car, as I think it's known in the States. But still perfectly usable.
Thanks for the point about how the cold affects the GOM. That's interesting; as you say, the usage will cause it to warm, and that could then increase the displayed remaining range, as the BMS changes the figures it's using to do the calculations.
Just purchased a used LEAF from 2018. Battery health seems to be around 87% which I'm happy with. Most of the time I I only need 80 miles of range. The longest journey I'll do will be 200 miles with a couple of charging stops. As the car ages, I'll just use it for local commuting and short trips. After 6 years it's still a great car to drive.
That's a good point. Your situation is a good example of why any possible range loss has limited impact - most of the time a lot of us do fairly short trips, and even the older cars with their smaller original batteries remain perfectly usable for those.
I understand that some people need a single car to do everything of course - but not everyone. There may be different solutions for different scenarios.
Thanks for the video, topic discussed very well. Many customers may not be aware aware of their EV's battery health after eight years of ownership. There should be a general standard by which used EV batteries can be measured easily. Having said that there's never been a similar standard for ICE car's health so I can't see it happening soon.
Thanks. I'm glad you saw it, since your comment on a previous video played a significant part in the decision to make this one!
As you say, we're not in an entirely different position than we were with ICE cars. They can be a bit of an unknown, especially when buying secondhand. An ICE engine that has not been well maintained could be in quite bad condition. I think I'd be more worried buying a high mileage ICE than an EV of a similar age - but I definitely understand the concern people have. It's always hard changing to something new, and that can cause much closer examination of the potential pitfalls.
It depends on who you ask , the car manufacturers or studies by independent researchers
It's fine. Just buy a new battery if you need to. Battery replacement is not too expensive now, and will be even cheaper soon.
That certainly could be an option. I know some LEAF owners are opting for upgrades, usually with refurbished packs from crash-damaged cars, if i understand correctly.
My five year old Renault Zoe ZE40 gives me between 160 and 120 in spring depending upon the kind of driving I’m doing. 120 being mostly 70 mph A3m road and 160 being Surrey and Hampshire A and B roads 30 to 60 mph. I never use eco mode and just drive ‘normally’. Range is never lower than 120 whatever time of year.
That's a great data point from an older car, thanks. That makes sense for the smaller pack in the ZE40. I don't use eco much either - mainly to dull the throttle a bit in the winter to avoid the risk of wheelspin. However, I do drive somewhat below 70 on the motorway to achieve better efficiency
Hello, I can't seem to find information on this but do you know if the renault zoe can have roof racks and if so what brand?
Hi. I wasn't sure, but I checked the manual, and it says that roof loads are prohibited. It appears not
The question is: Does battery capacity reduction of 30% equal to 30% range reduction all other being equal? Or maybe battery with 70% of original capacity is not useful anymore at all due to internal degradation of other parameters also. From smartphones we can learn that the phone with 80% or less battery capacity usually is not useful anymore and the battery has to be replaced, as this battery can't provide enough current to power the device and the battery self-discharge is greatly increased.
You are right, the maximum power from the battery is also impacted. However, there is often so MUCH power to begin with that I'm not sure how noticeable it would be to me that it is reducing. Personally I don't really use 100% throttle at any point - but maybe I'm unusual in that regard.
The Tesla impact reports are full of marketing yes but really interesting and useful. I doubt I will keep an EV (on my 2nd) for more than 4 to 5 years as I purchase with a PCP arrangement which for me is ideal
Yes, that makes sense. Not everyone wants to keep a car indefinitely - although someone else will own it after you
Depreciation is my main concern. 50% in two years is a bitter pill to swallow.
The market is becoming more normal compared with ICE after w weird few years. I suspect it will be similar to ICE, although maybe a bit more as battery technology is changing fast.
ICE cars will one day fall off a cliff though as demand falls and fuel gets relatively more and more expensive.
It has been an odd period - but it seems to have been high on everything. Back to the old days, to some extent - it's just been a few years since depreciation was a significant concern. However, high depreciation is a benefit for those buying used, which is what i always recommend anyway.
Two years in with my BYD EV. So far no discernable range loss. Also no discernable difference between summer and winter. Range meets the published figure if driven in eco mode. Performance modes do reduce range.
I will let you know when degradation happens.
That's great, I'm glad you are not finding finding range loss to be a problem. I'm surprised that you don't see a difference between summer and winter. I wonder how they achieve that. Do you preheat the car while grid-connected to get the battery up to temperature before you use the car?
What model do you have?
@@theelectrictransition It's a BYD Atto3. The integrated heat pump system and battery operates reliably down to -10C. It rarely gets colder than that around here so there is no reason for range loss.
The Atto uses active thermal management on the top side of the blade battery only. The bottom side is exposed to ambient temperatures via a 'cold plate'. There are 126 'thermal links' between the top and bottom side of the battery.
Below -10C the problems are heat pump efficiency declining quickly and battery chemistry becoming inhibited as the electrolyte freezes. I think you would need to keep the car in a partially heated garage (say 0C) so it doesn't cold soak and keep trips short for the same reason. Of course similar issues apply to many non winterised ICE vehicles, particularly diesels.
Operation below -10C isn't recommended but I think you would likely be ok down to -15C, again as long as the battery doesn't cold soak and trips are kept short.
Below -15C I doubt the heat pump could keep up, and the battery would likely lose too much heat via the 'cold plate' on its underside. Additionally battery chemistry could be inhibited to a point where the vehicle couldn't 'bootstrap' itself into life.
Unlike the Tesla, as far as I am aware most export versions of the Atto don't have resistive battery heating to help keep the battery warm at very low temperatures so with the Atto all bets are off.
However, I believe in western and northern China where winters can be frigid, these vehicles are fitted with a winterisation (battery heating) system. I have friends there tell me that when the winterisation system is operating it reduces range by about 30%. This suggests in such conditions battery heating pulls around 5KW.
I've noticed the 60ah (22kwh) BMW i3 packs are fairing far worse than the slightly later 90ah (33kwh) packs, even taking age and the larger capacity into account, with 33% loss on the 60ah not unusual. Seems excessive for an actively cooled pack. Supposed to be the same chemistry but maybe Samsung had improved manufacturing techniques on the 90ah packs.
Oh, that's interesting. Yes, that degree of degradation does indeed seem excessive. I don't know the i3 very well; would those packs have been sold at the same time - would we be comparing batteries of the same age? I know that the packs slowly got bigger, so I am wondering if we are comparing two generations, and that might explain some of the difference in behaviour.
I have a 2018 bmw is rex , i purchased it 3 years ago, i can't say i have noticed any degradation, before this car i leased a 30kw kia soul for three years , a great car , i know this sounds silly but it felt like your best friend, i also leased a tesla model 3 for two years, wow a supercar , alas leasing was expensive so i have the bmw to save money i have and will never public charge but love evs so the rex is my only option , just in case and long trips , perfect, yes no planning no hunt the charger that may not work and may have a queue and have to wait no thanks, i drive a car suit me not me suit the car...
I have a question, do you think the rex will extends the life of the battery especially as i never fast charge, (no need i have rex)
Thanks, great video...
I hope your Rex serves you well. I don't know the i3 very well, but my understanding is that in its normal mode, it only uses the engine when the battery SoC drops low. In other words, it prioritises using the battery over the engine. The existence of the rex therefore doesn't prolong the life of the battery, as such, in that mode - but there are other modes.
The fact that you will reduce the need to rapid charge will help a bit, I'd say. Yes, that certainly makes sense. So it could help you. I suppose it depends on your usage as to how often you would have rapid charged as to how much difference that makes.
Cold towing,passengers,uphil,hot weather, using the AC or heater, anymore things lose range ???
I bet that @*&@**&@ the battery a lot quicker as well as everything else.
What EV maker is going to be around in 8 years, LOLZ, time to go to the scrap heap.
Loads. Just you wait and see.
@@theelectrictransition Am seeing, EVS in nose dive all arround world.
My 30KWh Nissan leaf is on 67% of battery state of health at almost 65k miles and 7 years old . So I wouldn't recommend Nissan , car is usable and fantastic drive but Nissan battery technology is lacking .
Ah, that's a shame, I'm sorry to hear that. I've heard that the 30kWh cars are worse affected than the 24kWh, as they overheat more - although I'm not sure why. I wonder if they might have increased the packing density of the cells to increase the total pack capacity.
The air cooled battery is an issue. Where I live Leaf (and I Miev) battery swaps are a reality. Not unreasonably expensive and the new after market batteries have better range than the originals.
There are issues with the 30 kWh battery pack in the LEAF. My 24kWh pack is over 77% capacity after 10 years and nearly 84k miles. I don't drive it slowly or limit charging so it's just that the pack has a better chemistry.
balance your input, all cars lose range as they age .... stop bs about co2
Thanks for the comment, but I'm not sure I entirely grasp your point. Do you think CO2 emissions are irrelevant, untrue, or are you saying you are just not interested in that aspect of the conversation yourself?
@@theelectrictransition There are two facts about CO2 that all parties agree on. First is it only 0.04% of the atmosphere. And then humans contribute 3% of that 0.04%. Maths say that our contribution is therefore 3% of 0.04% = 0.0012%. As a thought exercise assume that all humans disappear overnight. All transport, industry, and power ceases. Including us ceasing to exhale CO2. What happens tomorrow? Am I right in assuming that the planets atmospheric CO2 level eventually goes down to 0.0388% from 0.04%? And that's not net zero, which is a far less target than zero. That's absolutely zero human contribution. Now, what would the planet do? My guess is not much would change. Perhaps plants would start to notice and stop growing at the increased rate seen over the last 50 years. No problem to us because we don't exist any more. But would the planet do a 180 and stop it's climate change activity based on such a minute reduction in atmospheric CO2? I think not. Because climate changes take thousands of years to take place. In any case, I find it hard to accept that our miniscule involvement in the atmospheric levels are what's causing a tiny warming effect. I suspect that it's a bit more likely that a natural long term warming climate change is happening, and that 'modellers' are noticing that tiny rise in CO2 and assuming causation rather than correlation. All of the above is purely my own opinion of course. And I do tend to look at complex problems in a more simple way. But I have to say that I find the alarmists claims to be hard to accept.
No.... the reasoning is fallacious, and extreme....
I's say so. Thanks for the comment
Summary: Renault EV has a big impact on average decay of battery. Thus exclude Renault from statistics. Oh seems impossible. So he takes Tesla’s battery degradation alone as standard. Tesla is renowned for not representing range in an honest way!
I take your point about Tesla - but it's not really them, if I understand your concern correctly. It's the actual range of a Tesla versus the published range that people seem to be upset about. However, as I mentioned in the video - albeit very briefly - the manufacturers don't get to choose what range figures they publish. They are required to use the same formula as everyone else.
There is only one thing that Tesla do a bit differently, and that applies only in the States. There are two different EPA test cycles that manufacturers can use, and Tesla choose the opposite one to most other manufacturers, for some reason. If the EPA were to close that loophole, maybe people would be less upset.
Like most people, I don't like the fact that the published figures are not realistic. I'd prefer they changed the method of calculating them to make them a bit more achievable - but it's the regulatory authorities that would need to change it. Sadly, those authorities simply get defensive and say it doesn't matter, because what the figure is for is comparison from model to model. That's where I disagree, because if you set and expectation and fail to achieve it, that leaves people disappointed.
Either way, what is being measured is the reduction in range over time (and miles). What the starting figure is in real life sort of doesn't matter, the reduction in range would still have the same impact.
Why not put a generator on a small trailer, for recharging while underway on long trips?
Most EVs won't let you charge and drive at the same time. People use ecoflow battery power packs for emergency top-ups though. A diesel generator running in the car would probably kill you however.
I suppose that's what a hybrid is trying to achieve, to some extent. There are different forms of hybrid, which I covered a bit in a video a while ago, but your suggestion is similar to what a PHEV tries to achieve.
Your suggestion is better than a PHEV in that it could be decoupled and left at home when not needed. However, as we have learned with real-world data on PHEV usage, people tend to go for what is easiest - the least hassle. That might mean they would leave the trailer attached - or, more likely due to the difficulty of reversing with a trailer - simply not bother.
Sadly, PHEVs are looking like an emissions disaster, as a lot of people seem to buy them to benefit from incentives, only to use them like a regular ICE. Not everyone, of course - but enough that, on average, they are worse than ICE because they are heavier and have higher emissions from manufacturing.
Technology can be very useful, but we have to factor in how people will use the technology as well, and that has a surprisingly large impact on what works and what doesn't.
I did see a company doing what you suggested a few years ago - a French company, if I remember correctly. I wonder how they got on. I will try to check when time allows
Should be a LAW that before you buy, they Tell you how much a new battery Costs, should be placed on the car with a big sticker.
That is only of benefit if you need to replace it. I think you are assuming that replacement will often be necessary - but I don't think that's what the stats are saying.
@@theelectrictransition When a battery degrades 65% in 3 years, I think its necessary, 3 years you will have to scrap it or get a new battery.
@@SillySausage-mq3so Degrades 65%? Down to 35%? Most EVs come with an 8 year warranty to reinstate the available battery power if it drops below 70% within that period. And that's an extreme 30% degradation figure that they don't expect to have to honour - not degrading by 65%. Very few cars claim under that 70% warranty anyway. The oft quoted full replacement cost of a battery is just a fear factor pushed out by people with a psychological blackspot over EVs. It's a problem perceived rather than real.
@@Hitstirrer I get my data from the EV industry, if you use your car everyday,tow,use in cold, super charge it all the time, your battery is toast, and some people actaully do that, just hope your EV company aint bankrupt within the next 7 years.
Try to sell your degraded EV after 8 years even if the atter is still decent, BAHAHAHAHAHAHA, scrap year, get a dollar for it :(
@@SillySausage-mq3so The EV industry, as you put it, knows that what you say is just your opinion. But facts trump your opinion all day long. There are 40 million EVs running around in the world quite successfully right now in all weather conditions from the Equator to the Arctic . Try a search in TH-cam for a video titled "430000 mile Tesla on original battery is supercharged daily & never serviced". Your alarmist fears are the result of your poor grasp of reality and total reliance on inaccurate media stories. I would suggest that you should stop being a parrot, and undertake a bit of independent research instead.