Okay first of all. Everyone that is a professional trainer once didn’t know how to force fetch. So people don’t be scare. Everyone in this world was born to learn and teach what they want.
Think of it this way Felmon. Most good professionals apprenticed under an experienced trainer. Learning along the way how to to force fetch different temperaments. Then they went out on their own. This is a free country. People can do what they want but from my experience most people have a hard time teaching their dogs how to sit stay. Let alone force fetch their dogs. Leave the tricky part to the people with experience. Good lesson to apply in many aspects of your life.
I am self taught love learning new things you don't have to call everyone dummies. I can't learn to ride a bike by watching others to some degree yes it helps but you have to get on the bike. There are lots of Naturals out there. lots of naturals out there. People who can't teach sit and stay would never try this method. th-cam.com/video/C-j2dKPUi8Q/w-d-xo.html. Force fetch part 2. I like this guy's version
I did my force fetch on my self watching videos and he came out good. But people can take your advice. But if they do why even make videos how to train dogs for?
Agreed. You won't learn how to Force Fetch a dog when hiring a Pro but you will get a dog that is properly trained (assuming you hire an experienced pro). TH-cam is not just about DIY videos. It's also a forum where people can go for sound advice. There are plenty of videos on TH-cam that will try and teach you to FF a dog. This video was made in order to warn people that it's not as easy as you see on TV. From my experience Force Fetching a dog should be left to some with extensive knowledge of the process. Quick example. I could probably find a video on how to pour a foundation to a home on TH-cam but I really don't think that a video could teach me all the in's and out's to the process. So I choose to sub out the part that is beyond my capabilities. A smart contractor once told me "Those who try and save pennies often wind up spending dollars.
@@top-dogk9training I would agree Shaping the behavior "Fetch" from a young age is crucial to a strong understand of Fetch. All my personal dogs undergo a large amount of shaping through play before introduced to the Force Fetch method which does reduce confusion when I get to the table. Or "conflict" as you put it. Unfortunately in my career I have found that most owners don't do or have the patience for a lot of shaping with their dogs before they enter my program.
I will disagree somewhat. Force fetching a dog isn't impossible for someone who is willing to learn and can read a dog. Lot of good programs out there that show you how to do it. Lots of amateurs who are successful at the highest levels of field trials and hunt tests train their own dogs from basics(including force fetch) all the way through advanced training. I've put about 8 dogs through force fetch and have successfully competed in mostly field trials and some hunt tests with them. However, if a person is uncomfortable doing it themselves or feels they can't learn how to do it, then I agree they should send the dog to a reputable pro to have it done.
It’s all about reading dogs and no two dogs are the same. It is the hardest part of training a good retriever. I see so many people want to rush it. It’s all about baby steps and that goes with the entire retriever training proses. I totally get your point my only recommendation is to see if the trainer will let you come and watch. I’m sure their are allot that won’t, but that’s the best way to learn.
This trainer has trained three dogs for my wife and I. He trained my first dog about fourteen years ago and I hunted him as long as I could. When Marty was done training him, Remington was so alive and lived for hunting and retrieving. As my Muscular Dystrophy has progressed over the years, Remington started helping me pick things up around the house. I firmly believe being forced fetched trained led to his success with becoming a service animal for me. My current service animal Willow was crossed trained so that I can hunt with her but she is primarily a service animal. She loves to retrieve anything from a penny on the floor to a piece of paper, to my cell phone, keys, coffee mug and so much more. While I haven't had the opportunity to hunt with her, I have trained with her and she has the same love for it as Remington. I think it's a testament of the training Marty gave them!! I firmly believe Marty imparted his love of retrieving into my animals. Our third dog is too timid to force fetch train. But, Marty was honest and straight forward about her timidity and she is a great pet. I have been complimented on Willow's abilities and I can honestly say I had nothing to do with how good she is. She's only that good because, in my opinion, I have one of the best trainers in the country. I am honored to call him my friend.
First time dog owner, I was able to follow a program and got my dog through it. Last summer my 16 months pup went 3/3 for her senior hunt test. Long journey but it was doable.
I have not seen it. I would take any helpful tips from Danny Farmer. Thanks for the comment. Always love your videos by the way. No fluff and flair, Straight to the point and very informative
@@flycreekkennels9559 Farmer/Aycock Basics DVD series. They do a fantastic job explaining why and show a variety of retrievers in the various stages of basics.
I’ll just say, even people that are pro e-collar will say it’s not supposed to be used as a form of correction, only communication. That being said, proofing your training and making sure it’s as solid as possible is just as effective as using an e-collar and it avoids issues like your dog being collar smart and the potential breakdown in trust between you and your dog.
I didn't say Correction once in my video but I will say that if your dog is properly collar conditioned that part of "communication" is correction and correction is not part of Force Fetch (at least the way I do it). The collar is used to reinforce taught behavior. A concept that is very difficult for a lot of people to understand because most often a collar is associated to punishment. Again solidifying my statements to leave the Force Fetch to those with experience. Over the years I've seen just as many leash smart dogs as collar smart dogs but it doesn't mean I won't use a leash with a dog. It's all about how you train with it and how you transition off of it. I've noticed over the years the word "punishment" has been replaced with "correction" and the term "correction" is slowly being replaced with "communication". How about people just think of it this way. The sensation that the dog feels at point of contact (the neck) is to replace the sensation that the dog feels from a leash. If people thought of it more like that then I believe there would be less confusion on how and when the E-Collar is used. I agree 100% that there are other avenues to teaching your dog to deliver to hand but this video was created to address those who are researching the use of the force fetch method. I am really trying to address those with lack of experience, looking for a quick fix and think think they can save money or cut corners by doing it themselves. There is not one video on TH-cam that cautions people or deters people from trying this training method on their own. It amazes me how many people are offended when I try to use my experience to steer them in better direction. Thanks for watching the video and thanks for the feedback.
A dog must be trained with a rope. Once perfect, then an e collar is used to reinforce off the rope. You will ruin the dog if you think you can train with a e collar!! Before tri-tronics, we used a flip and marbles to the flank to "communicate" off the rope ;) But that was years ago!
1st and only video I’ve seen of yours as I was starting to research force fetching. I’ve been debating on trying to train my pup myself for ducks, and you just turned me off to that idea. I’ll definitely be hiring a PRO. Thank you!
You make valid points but you also make it seem like learning to force fetch training a dog is damn near impossible when it really isn't. However some people have the touch and patience and some dont
In my opinion If a person has never done it before, at minimum they should do it with supervision, not from a video. Most videos, aren't detailed enough to help a beginner. If you watch closely they are basically showing you that "They" know how to force fetch a dog. It's impossible to cover all the subtle nuances in a video without losing your audience and a good trainer knows that. I completely agree with the touch and patients comment. The dog your working with makes a big difference too. A soft dog more challenging, a strong dog maybe recovers from handler mistakes faster. Thanks for taking the time to comment. I always love the feed back and I think it adds more perspective for those who might be on the fence about trying this stage of training on their own.
I agree with most of your comments except for one thing that you left out, even most professionals don’t force break to retrieve well. What they call a force broke dog is not even close to a finished nonslip retriever. I only disagree with one of your comments on what type of dog Is suitable for force breaking. In the proper hands they can all become non-slip retrievers. The question is do you want to put the effort into a dog that was born with missing pieces.
Thanks so much for watching and taking the time to comment. To your points, I guess that's where some of my frustration comes in. Even pro's have a different standard to what a truly force fetched dog should be. My standard is high and my definition of a "finished force fetch" is a dog that can reliably deliver birds and bumpers (without slip) to hand in the field both on land and from water. Period end of story. It cannot be incomplete or the dog is not force fetched. It's often why I tell my clients it will take another month in the field to really dial in the process. That way when the dog returns home, the owners are able to reinforce behavior the same way I did. As to your comment about "they can all become non-slip retrievers". I would disagree solely for the word "all". That is a broad statement and misleading to those folks who have dogs that just don't have the true desire or ambition to retrieve or the tolerance for pressure (even subtle pressure). I believe the correct term would be "many" or "most" but with emphasis on "Not all". Again I know it might sound trivial but words matter and in many cases as professionals we are talking to people with little knowledge of the process. I believe it's part of our due diligence to be clear and honest with people and their expectations when we're talking about our training programs. lets face it. The retrieve is the first part of the delivery to hand. If the dog doesn't show any interest or "want" to do it, who am I to say "you must enjoy this"! Please keep in mind I'm referring to dogs in this situation that are 12 months or older. I agree 100 percent that in some cases dogs don't make the FF cut because I can not put the effort into them. When I Begin the FF process and I encounter red flags, I ask myself "Will I be able to meet a clients expectations within a certain time frame". If that answer is "No" then its my responsibility to tell folks that. I will not surprise my clients with bad news about their dog on graduation day. In reality that's the unfortunate truth about most DIY Vs. Professional scenarios. Whether it's fixing your own car or home construction. What is the cost to result analysis? Is the home worth the renovation or do I tear it down and start over. I expect Pro's to be honest and tell me the truth Thanks again for the comment.
I agree with a lot he says. But after FF literally hundreds of pointing breeds that really had no interest in retrieving he's dead wrong about dogs without interest in retreiving. The FF or Trained retreive is exactly what it says. It makes a retrieve an absolute command. Most dogs can be done in 2-3 weeks with an experienced trainer.
I would love to see a video series on how you train a dog with zero desire to retrieve to enthusiastically retrieving in 21days (please remember when I say zero I mean no interest in chase, Just looks at an item go down and walks away). Please post that video and tag me. I will share it. I'm looking forward to seeing this. I could learn a lot from that
Quick question I’ve had many dogs we actually raise them I’ve been around dogs my whole life and training my whole life you have definitely trained more dogs then I have no doubt but I think if your dog loves it unless your doing field trials or comps that if your dog puts it down to shake off is fine I mean I have hunted with hundreds of dogs and the ones I think I hate hunting with the most are ones that are completely finished by professionals such as yourself and they arnt any better then the dog my friend got that’s never trained a dog before and he got him for 100$ at the flee market I think if you train a dog by yourself the dog will love you and respect you and know your way better then some third party same with my dogs I am training now one finished dog one “hunting dog” and just today picked out my first ever puppy that I am gonna train myself with no help he’s only six weeks but the other dog I just started with obedience today and all of these dogs are my family’s feel free to check us out hb kennels but I agree on some things but some I do disagree the whole paragraph I typed was mainly to say don’t discourage someone who wants to train a dog or dosent have the money to send them to people like you or people like me who know a enough about it let them try and learn and they will end if they are committed with the dog that they love more and appreciate more then if they sent it off to get trained .
Pepper There is so much to unwrap in this comment that my head is spinning but I do thank you for watching the video. Not sure you watched in it's entirety. I never said you shouldn't train your own dog. As a matter of fact I encourage people who have the time and desire to train their own dog, to do so. The gratification and relationship you get from the work is incredible. I just said that if you have never force fetched a dog you should leave that step to a person with the experience to navigate your dog through it. More importantly you should be extremely cautious of try to learn the process from a video on TH-cam. That's really my entire purpose of this video. To warn people that the process is more complex then people are lead to believe. I'll say it again. If you've never force fetched a dog you should leave this stage of training (if you believe this is the technique you should use) to a qualified professional . Good luck with the new pup. oh, and In my opinion you took the puppy from the litter way to soon. You should've waited until 8 weeks. JOMO
That's a great question! I was fortunate enough to start my pro career apprenticing under a pro for 6 weeks. I then began training and force fetching dogs under his watchful eye and supervision for 6 months, before starting my own kennels. My personal dog was purchased after my Apprenticship and was force fetched by me.
Great question. I did. I apprenticed under a pro for 6 months before I ever started Force Fetching dogs and even then I was supervised while doing it. Only until I proved myself, was I allowed to FF dogs on my own.
@@jamesolson7576 Yes, in my opinion. Sure you can get help with many other aspects of Retriever training from a pro or amateur, and I would encourage that. But to self teach the force fetch is the one part of the process that I discourage people from doing. Most other skills that you want to perform with your dog can be learned through videos, books, and trial and error. Screwing up a lot of those drills and having to reteach them doesn't have the potential to ruin them if you done wrong. Look... in the end I'm not going to judge people for Force Fetching their own dogs. I just believe if you have no experience doing it that 1- it's not something you can learn from watching a video on TH-cam or DVD or reading an article in gundog magazine, 2 - The risk outweighs the reward and the view more often isn't worth the climb. 3 - Most importantly; if people do try it, and create a ton of negative connotations toward the process in their dogs head , please don't expect a pro to reverse all the damage that was done. I, and many pros I know, and have spoken too, hate nothing more then trying to clean up the phycological damage owners create trying to force fetch their own dogs.
It’s not that I don’t agree with you but what do you expect people to do that just can’t do that for various reason for example there are no trainers in my entire state or area that I know of. And what about for the people that want to train a duck dog but just can’t afford to pay a trainer. Your service are not cheap and I understand why that’s not what I’m arguing but not everyone can afford your service so what are they to do in your opinion. Please don’t tell me “well they shouldn’t own a dog then because that’s just not right”
Matthew My suggestion would be to try find a trainer outside your area that would take the dog for In-Kennel-Training. It will require saving up but it will be worth the money. I'm merely recommending you hire this portion of the training out not the entire process. I really believe everyone is absolutely capable of training all the other parts of a well trained Gundog and I encourage that! I just highly discourage doing the FF on your own. I've just seen to many horrible outcomes when folks with no experience try this part of the process on their own. That was the main motivation behind creating this video. Thanks for your thoughtful comments
Force fetch is not absolutley necessary 100 percent of the time. Forcing everything with the collar is Also not 100 percent necessary. Depends on the dog. This guy thinks he knows everything though
I've been professionally training for 20 years and would never claim to know everything. In that twenty years I've seen many people attempt to force fetch a dog and royally screw it up. Then expect that a pro will fix it for them. This video was created in an attempt to keep people from going that road. I would agree that force fetch is not necessary 100 percent of the time (I never said that it is). But if you are going to use pressure as a way to reinforce the fetch and hold you better know what your doing because it can be a road of no return. Thanks for sharing your thoughts Chad 😉
All I’m getting is to send the dog to a professional trainer and spend hundreds of dollars for something you can do yourself. This isn’t rocket science. Take your time and consistency is the key. I’m not a professional but able to achieve desired results.
Like most educated trainers, I apprenticed fulltime under a pro for almost a year. Trust me. There are easier ways to make a living then FF a dog. This video was created to heed warning to people who are naive to the challenges of force fetch. Not drum up business. I always love the up tick in views and sarcastic comments on this video this time of year. Just before the hunting season begins folks want that dog to "Just bring me the bird". They hear about this "Force Fetch" process and away they going. Off to TH-cam to solve my problems 😊😊 The sad part is when folks bring us broken dogs because they tried the process themselves. Then expect us to pull off a miracle and reverse the dogs negative experience that the owners created.
How are you supposed to get to do hundreds of dogs if you don’t start with the first? There’s plenty of resources like courses, patreon, trainers that could walk someone through it.. you don’t need to do it alone I agree but i think there is a lot to learn for the dog and the trainer in doing it yourself. Lots and lots of videos on TH-cam of professional trainers showing you exactly how to do it
If you watched my entire video you'd know I touched on all your comments. As like most people in any profession, I started under the supervision of a professional for almost a year and FF 5 dogs from start to finish before heading out on my own. After that I FF two personal dogs before taking on any clients. Each one of those dogs domineers was different and no video would've ever taught me what I learned in that first year. I did my best in my video to explain that there are so many nuances to the process and each individual dog has his/her own reaction that it can be dangerous and naive to believe your going to get the same reaction as one of those dogs in a video. You can watch a video of a trainer FF a dog and believe that your dog is going to respond the same way but in most cases he/she will not. You are correct. There are tons of videos trying to teach folks about the FF process. As far as I know mine is the only one discouraging first timers from attempting it. I made the video because I've seen people ruin good retrievers and then come to trainers like me to try to repair it and often the first comment out of their mouth is "I saw a video on TH-cam". With all that said, it's a free country and you are more then welcome to try the process on your own but you should know you really only get one shot at doing it right so you better not screw it up. Good luck and thanks for your comment.
You're not gonna learn it, if you don't do it...so you are talking out both sides of your mouth.... FF is the greatest thing since sliced bread....some guys can do it and read a dog, and have the patience, and can give the proper pressure at the proper time/moment..... and some can not. The latter is the type that should not train a dog......
If you begin force fetching a dog improperly there's not much chance you can turn it around. Very few times when training in pressure situations, do you have the opportunity to get a second chance to make a first impression. My main point to the video was to help people who have never Force Fetched a dog, understand that its not as simple as what you see on the internet. There are to many nuances in the process that can't be taught in a TH-cam video. As to speaking out of both sides of my mouth, let me make myself perfectly clear. If you have never Forced Fetched a dog you should not do it. It's a stupid thing to do and there's to much at risk. I know this because of the repair jobs people have paid me to do. If you ask me "well them how did you learn" Please read other comments below because it's already asked and answered. Final Thought: Rebuilding a car can be done as an amateur as well. If you take your time and you study the process and you learn from your mistakes and you have the money to go back and fix your mistakes. Just like everything else in life. Some parts of that process should be left to those who have experience. If I've never rebuilt a transmission can I "learn" how to do it if I'm patient enough and have the right resource, maybe, But rather then take the chance of royally screwing it up. I'll go a head and hire that part out. Now with all that said, we still live in a free country and people can do as they want. But if someone else is reading this and tries this process on their own and screws it up. PLEASE don't call a pro to fix it. The dirty little secret that pro's have is that we hate remodels, especially if we have to start at the foundation.
@@outdoorrn2980 Actually that's not true. I've been doing this long enough where I won't take remodels anymore. I do new Construction only, That's why I do these videos. I'm trying to keep people from going down the wrong road and biting off more then they can chew.
You get what you pay for Kobe. Somethings in dog training are worth hiring out to those with experience. But you would've have know that if watched the whole video. With that lack of attention span you'll never learn to force fetch your dog on your own especailly from a TH-cam video. Good luck with your dog. I hope I'm wrong about you but my experience tells me this video was designed for owners just like you.
I deal with a lot of misinformed clients who believe they can force fetch their own dogs so I'm looking to be honest about what I think is the best way to force fetch your dog. I appreciate the comment and thanks for watching.
@@billmazeymazey5226 That is correct. Along with many other elements. Glad you've been successful on your own. I still wouldn't recommend it for an inexperienced handler. Thanks for your comments and thanks for watching 👍🏻
The method is to hire a reputable pro. In my humble opinion, Force Fetch is beyond the pay grade of many amateur handlers. The beauty of this country is that you still have the right to take other peoples advise. This is just mine. Good Luck
Very discouraging. This video leads me to believe that it's hopeless for me to ever learn. Why not create a really good video series to help people learn. Honestly videos like this seem to be a bit self serving.
I'm sincere when I say I'm sorry to be discouraging Rob. The video might seem direct and to the point but it was produced in response to 19 years of training experiences. I'm discouraged with how many people try the process on their own and really mess up, what (I believe) could have been a confident, enthusiastic retriever. Then bring the dog to me, or a trainer like me, and expect us to psychologically reverse the negative experience the dog has had on the table. The Video is most definitely self serving. I'm trying to avoid the uncomfortable conversation of telling an owner that the damage they have done is irreversible. I'm trying to be honest and educate people (on a wide scale) the incredible number of nuances that a person (with no experience) can encounter when trying to FF their own dog. The nuances that you can't teach in a video but only learn through a good, hands on, mentor. There are plenty of videos on the net or DVD that will take you through the process and try to explain the step by step equation of a FF. I know. I've watched them. You never see a video that teaches you about the pitfalls you might run into. That's because they can't teach that in a video. There's hundreds of instinctive, decisive decisions that need to be made when a trainer encounters those pitfalls. The problem is that all dogs are different. How they respond to the process is different and reactions they have on the table can be different. For someone to produce a video and post it as if this is the way you should do it, to me is irresponsible and extremely self serving "Look at me I can force fetch a dog". Look, I'm just trying to warn people that once you jump off that cliff and begin imprinting the dog to the process, You better get it right. Because if you don't, it's very difficult to turn back and make it a positive experience for the dog. The example I like to give is simple. I could learn how to pour a foundation for a new home on TH-cam. Not a slab but a foundation. I have decent understanding of construction and If I take my time and I'm methodical I could probably do it. But what if I begin the pour and run into a pitfall. A problem that only a professional with experience can solve (which most likely will happen). I could tear it all out if my budget allowed and start over. Maybe even learn my lesson and hire a professional the next go around. Well unfortunately Animals minds don't work that way. Once you've "broken" a dog it's very difficult, if not impossible, to "fix" the dog. Sometimes the only fix is to start over with a new dog. That's why I put the video together. I'm just trying to be honest which often derives from being self serving. If your dog has the right desire, already loves to retrieve and your looking for a program to help you teach your dog to deliver to hand, I would recommend Bill Hillmans Fetch command DVD. It is probably the most thorough program to help you accomplish delivery to hand if you've never force fetched a dog. Easy to find online. Good luck with your pups training.
@@flycreekkennels9559 I understand and I appreciate you sharing. My 19-year-old just got his first pup, (i have had several) he is trying to learn as much as he can and he wants to do it right. But now he is finding out the only way to do it right is to spend $600 a month until the job is done. He wants the satisfaction of accomplishment. I understand that you as a trainer have seen a lot of dogs and you have seen a lot ruined. I would bet you have seen a lot of people do well with their dogs also. I wished my son could find some help and encouragement.
I have seen some success stories with FF by amateurs. They are few and far between. I guess i dont see it much because nobody hires a pro when the training is going well. I admire your son for wanting to train his own dog. It's very possible for him to do it but somethings (like FF) should be hired out. Just my opinion. I've heard cornerstone program (online program) has been a good program for beginners. There's a subscription cost but cheaper then hiring a pro. Not sure it covers FF but it might. Most gun dog training can be done by the owners if they put the time in. Again. The force is something I wouldn't play around with if your inexperienced. Thanks for commenting on the video and Good luck with the new dog
Guys you should walk away from this video and trainer, Chris Akin goes to nationals and wins more titles with dogs he trains than this guy could dream about and in duck dog basics he force fetches right out of a bed of a side by side. Location isn't as important and getting the dog off the ground and the method of training. The arrogance of this guy is astounding and comical. A real trainer needs to be flexible and cater each lesson specifically to the dog and it's learning method...like teachers and kids a lot of it is manipulation and psychological...but remember the dogs are excited to please...that wasn't trained in them...they love to work and serve us...a good trainer is someone that can help the dog learn and understand despite what assets he has...I've learned from a guy who does so much with so little and has a National Master titled dog that took first in a NUCS competition her first time running it. Guys you have the right to walk away but don't be silly... voice concerns and ask questions that's how we all learn.
Nicole Thanks for your comments. You should be so brave to leave the comment section open on the videos you create. As for Chris Akin, I'll let his work speak for itself. In response to my so called "arrogance". It's actually frustration. I produced this video to heed the warning to first timers that Force Fetch is not as simple as it is portrayed on a TH-cam. The frustration has developed over years because amateurs screwing up their dogs and then expecting a pro to come in and fix it. That conversation typically leads with " I watched a video on TH-cam" You stated it perfectly in your comment Nicole "A real trainer needs to be flexible and cater each lesson specifically to the dog and it's learning method...like teachers and kids a lot of it is manipulation and psychological. " How can a good teacher possibly do that through a video series on TH-cam that uses one or two dogs as an example? Any "real" trainer knows you can't. What always amuses me about folks like yourself that like to attack my character and this video is that I'm simply heeding a warning that maybe this step of the training should be left to those who have experience. Good luck to you and your dogs Nicole.
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Okay first of all. Everyone that is a professional trainer once didn’t know how to force fetch. So people don’t be scare. Everyone in this world was born to learn and teach what they want.
Think of it this way Felmon. Most good professionals apprenticed under an experienced trainer. Learning along the way how to to force fetch different temperaments. Then they went out on their own.
This is a free country. People can do what they want but from my experience most people have a hard time teaching their dogs how to sit stay. Let alone force fetch their dogs. Leave the tricky part to the people with experience. Good lesson to apply in many aspects of your life.
I am self taught love learning new things you don't have to call everyone dummies. I can't learn to ride a bike by watching others to some degree yes it helps but you have to get on the bike. There are lots of Naturals out there.
lots of naturals out there. People who can't teach sit and stay would never try this method. th-cam.com/video/C-j2dKPUi8Q/w-d-xo.html. Force fetch part 2. I like this guy's version
I did my force fetch on my self watching videos and he came out good. But people can take your advice. But if they do why even make videos how to train dogs for?
How do you learn by paying someone else to do it? We’re here to learn the proper way ourselves, not to blow money on a trainer
Agreed. You won't learn how to Force Fetch a dog when hiring a Pro but you will get a dog that is properly trained (assuming you hire an experienced pro). TH-cam is not just about DIY videos. It's also a forum where people can go for sound advice. There are plenty of videos on TH-cam that will try and teach you to FF a dog. This video was made in order to warn people that it's not as easy as you see on TV.
From my experience Force Fetching a dog should be left to some with extensive knowledge of the process.
Quick example. I could probably find a video on how to pour a foundation to a home on TH-cam but I really don't think that a video could teach me all the in's and out's to the process. So I choose to sub out the part that is beyond my capabilities.
A smart contractor once told me "Those who try and save pennies often wind up spending dollars.
@@flycreekkennels9559 and that's why Shaping is better
@@top-dogk9training better is a strong word. Its definitely one way to do it but not "better" in all cases.
@@flycreekkennels9559 you will find that most all working dog trainers shape the retrieve as it decreases conflict.
@@top-dogk9training I would agree Shaping the behavior "Fetch" from a young age is crucial to a strong understand of Fetch. All my personal dogs undergo a large amount of shaping through play before introduced to the Force Fetch method which does reduce confusion when I get to the table. Or "conflict" as you put it. Unfortunately in my career I have found that most owners don't do or have the patience for a lot of shaping with their dogs before they enter my program.
I will disagree somewhat. Force fetching a dog isn't impossible for someone who is willing to learn and can read a dog. Lot of good programs out there that show you how to do it. Lots of amateurs who are successful at the highest levels of field trials and hunt tests train their own dogs from basics(including force fetch) all the way through advanced training. I've put about 8 dogs through force fetch and have successfully competed in mostly field trials and some hunt tests with them. However, if a person is uncomfortable doing it themselves or feels they can't learn how to do it, then I agree they should send the dog to a reputable pro to have it done.
I agree 100%
Loved the enthusiasm and intensity that you have for this topic. Thanks for the advice
Thanks👍 it's crucial people get this right. I've seen to many horror stories. Thanks for watching
It’s all about reading dogs and no two dogs are the same. It is the hardest part of training a good retriever. I see so many people want to rush it. It’s all about baby steps and that goes with the entire retriever training proses. I totally get your point my only recommendation is to see if the trainer will let you come and watch. I’m sure their are allot that won’t, but that’s the best way to learn.
This trainer has trained three dogs for my wife and I. He trained my first dog about fourteen years ago and I hunted him as long as I could. When Marty was done training him, Remington was so alive and lived for hunting and retrieving. As my Muscular Dystrophy has progressed over the years, Remington started helping me pick things up around the house. I firmly believe being forced fetched trained led to his success with becoming a service animal for me. My current service animal Willow was crossed trained so that I can hunt with her but she is primarily a service animal. She loves to retrieve anything from a penny on the floor to a piece of paper, to my cell phone, keys, coffee mug and so much more. While I haven't had the opportunity to hunt with her, I have trained with her and she has the same love for it as Remington. I think it's a testament of the training Marty gave them!! I firmly believe Marty imparted his love of retrieving into my animals. Our third dog is too timid to force fetch train. But, Marty was honest and straight forward about her timidity and she is a great pet. I have been complimented on Willow's abilities and I can honestly say I had nothing to do with how good she is. She's only that good because, in my opinion, I have one of the best trainers in the country. I am honored to call him my friend.
First time dog owner, I was able to follow a program and got my dog through it. Last summer my 16 months pup went 3/3 for her senior hunt test. Long journey but it was doable.
Congratulations 👍
I like Danny Farmer's DVD on force fetch. (I've trained competive retrievers since 1988).
I have not seen it. I would take any helpful tips from Danny Farmer. Thanks for the comment. Always love your videos by the way. No fluff and flair, Straight to the point and very informative
@@flycreekkennels9559 Farmer/Aycock Basics DVD series. They do a fantastic job explaining why and show a variety of retrievers in the various stages of basics.
Can one still get that DVD?
I’ll just say, even people that are pro e-collar will say it’s not supposed to be used as a form of correction, only communication. That being said, proofing your training and making sure it’s as solid as possible is just as effective as using an e-collar and it avoids issues like your dog being collar smart and the potential breakdown in trust between you and your dog.
I didn't say Correction once in my video but I will say that if your dog is properly collar conditioned that part of "communication" is correction and correction is not part of Force Fetch (at least the way I do it). The collar is used to reinforce taught behavior. A concept that is very difficult for a lot of people to understand because most often a collar is associated to punishment. Again solidifying my statements to leave the Force Fetch to those with experience. Over the years I've seen just as many leash smart dogs as collar smart dogs but it doesn't mean I won't use a leash with a dog. It's all about how you train with it and how you transition off of it.
I've noticed over the years the word "punishment" has been replaced with "correction" and the term "correction" is slowly being replaced with "communication". How about people just think of it this way. The sensation that the dog feels at point of contact (the neck) is to replace the sensation that the dog feels from a leash. If people thought of it more like that then I believe there would be less confusion on how and when the E-Collar is used.
I agree 100% that there are other avenues to teaching your dog to deliver to hand but this video was created to address those who are researching the use of the force fetch method. I am really trying to address those with lack of experience, looking for a quick fix and think think they can save money or cut corners by doing it themselves. There is not one video on TH-cam that cautions people or deters people from trying this training method on their own. It amazes me how many people are offended when I try to use my experience to steer them in better direction.
Thanks for watching the video and thanks for the feedback.
A dog must be trained with a rope. Once perfect, then an e collar is used to reinforce off the rope. You will ruin the dog if you think you can train with a e collar!! Before tri-tronics, we used a flip and marbles to the flank to "communicate" off the rope ;) But that was years ago!
100% right.....I've tried it myself and took them to a pro. I can teach everything else but the fetch part requires experience
Were are you located?
1st and only video I’ve seen of yours as I was starting to research force fetching. I’ve been debating on trying to train my pup myself for ducks, and you just turned me off to that idea. I’ll definitely be hiring a PRO. Thank you!
th-cam.com/video/C-j2dKPUi8Q/w-d-xo.html. Force fetch part 2. Watch this guy he is good
You make valid points but you also make it seem like learning to force fetch training a dog is damn near impossible when it really isn't. However some people have the touch and patience and some dont
In my opinion If a person has never done it before, at minimum they should do it with supervision, not from a video. Most videos, aren't detailed enough to help a beginner. If you watch closely they are basically showing you that "They" know how to force fetch a dog. It's impossible to cover all the subtle nuances in a video without losing your audience and a good trainer knows that.
I completely agree with the touch and patients comment. The dog your working with makes a big difference too. A soft dog more challenging, a strong dog maybe recovers from handler mistakes faster.
Thanks for taking the time to comment. I always love the feed back and I think it adds more perspective for those who might be on the fence about trying this stage of training on their own.
I agree with most of your comments except for one thing that you left out, even most professionals don’t force break to retrieve well. What they call a force broke dog is not even close to a finished nonslip retriever. I only disagree with one of your comments on what type of dog Is suitable for force breaking. In the proper hands they can all become non-slip retrievers. The question is do you want to put the effort into a dog that was born with missing pieces.
Thanks so much for watching and taking the time to comment. To your points, I guess that's where some of my frustration comes in. Even pro's have a different standard to what a truly force fetched dog should be. My standard is high and my definition of a "finished force fetch" is a dog that can reliably deliver birds and bumpers (without slip) to hand in the field both on land and from water. Period end of story. It cannot be incomplete or the dog is not force fetched.
It's often why I tell my clients it will take another month in the field to really dial in the process. That way when the dog returns home, the owners are able to reinforce behavior the same way I did.
As to your comment about "they can all become non-slip retrievers". I would disagree solely for the word "all". That is a broad statement and misleading to those folks who have dogs that just don't have the true desire or ambition to retrieve or the tolerance for pressure (even subtle pressure). I believe the correct term would be "many" or "most" but with emphasis on "Not all".
Again I know it might sound trivial but words matter and in many cases as professionals we are talking to people with little knowledge of the process. I believe it's part of our due diligence to be clear and honest with people and their expectations when we're talking about our training programs.
lets face it. The retrieve is the first part of the delivery to hand. If the dog doesn't show any interest or "want" to do it, who am I to say "you must enjoy this"! Please keep in mind I'm referring to dogs in this situation that are 12 months or older.
I agree 100 percent that in some cases dogs don't make the FF cut because I can not put the effort into them. When I Begin the FF process and I encounter red flags, I ask myself "Will I be able to meet a clients expectations within a certain time frame". If that answer is "No" then its my responsibility to tell folks that. I will not surprise my clients with bad news about their dog on graduation day.
In reality that's the unfortunate truth about most DIY Vs. Professional scenarios. Whether it's fixing your own car or home construction. What is the cost to result analysis?
Is the home worth the renovation or do I tear it down and start over. I expect Pro's to be honest and tell me the truth
Thanks again for the comment.
I agree with a lot he says. But after FF literally hundreds of pointing breeds that really had no interest in retrieving he's dead wrong about dogs without interest in retreiving. The FF or Trained retreive is exactly what it says. It makes a retrieve an absolute command. Most dogs can be done in 2-3 weeks with an experienced trainer.
I would love to see a video series on how you train a dog with zero desire to retrieve to enthusiastically retrieving in 21days (please remember when I say zero I mean no interest in chase, Just looks at an item go down and walks away). Please post that video and tag me. I will share it. I'm looking forward to seeing this. I could learn a lot from that
Quick question I’ve had many dogs we actually raise them I’ve been around dogs my whole life and training my whole life you have definitely trained more dogs then I have no doubt but I think if your dog loves it unless your doing field trials or comps that if your dog puts it down to shake off is fine I mean I have hunted with hundreds of dogs and the ones I think I hate hunting with the most are ones that are completely finished by professionals such as yourself and they arnt any better then the dog my friend got that’s never trained a dog before and he got him for 100$ at the flee market I think if you train a dog by yourself the dog will love you and respect you and know your way better then some third party same with my dogs I am training now one finished dog one “hunting dog” and just today picked out my first ever puppy that I am gonna train myself with no help he’s only six weeks but the other dog I just started with obedience today and all of these dogs are my family’s feel free to check us out hb kennels but I agree on some things but some I do disagree the whole paragraph I typed was mainly to say don’t discourage someone who wants to train a dog or dosent have the money to send them to people like you or people like me who know a enough about it let them try and learn and they will end if they are committed with the dog that they love more and appreciate more then if they sent it off to get trained .
Pepper
There is so much to unwrap in this comment that my head is spinning but I do thank you for watching the video. Not sure you watched in it's entirety.
I never said you shouldn't train your own dog. As a matter of fact I encourage people who have the time and desire to train their own dog, to do so. The gratification and relationship you get from the work is incredible. I just said that if you have never force fetched a dog you should leave that step to a person with the experience to navigate your dog through it. More importantly you should be extremely cautious of try to learn the process from a video on TH-cam. That's really my entire purpose of this video. To warn people that the process is more complex then people are lead to believe. I'll say it again. If you've never force fetched a dog you should leave this stage of training (if you believe this is the technique you should use) to a qualified professional . Good luck with the new pup. oh, and In my opinion you took the puppy from the litter way to soon. You should've waited until 8 weeks. JOMO
Got to admit, almost turned you off. Thanks for the honesty
Glad you decided to listen all the way through. Crucial step. Can't get it wrong
OK knucklehead 😂
Did you pay a pro your first time
That's a great question! I was fortunate enough to start my pro career apprenticing under a pro for 6 weeks. I then began training and force fetching dogs under his watchful eye and supervision for 6 months, before starting my own kennels. My personal dog was purchased after my Apprenticship and was force fetched by me.
I didn’t start out as a pro, did you?
Great question. I did. I apprenticed under a pro for 6 months before I ever started Force Fetching dogs and even then I was supervised while doing it. Only until I proved myself, was I allowed to FF dogs on my own.
@@flycreekkennels9559 so only the force fetch you really need or should have assistance with?
@@jamesolson7576 Yes, in my opinion. Sure you can get help with many other aspects of Retriever training from a pro or amateur, and I would encourage that. But to self teach the force fetch is the one part of the process that I discourage people from doing. Most other skills that you want to perform with your dog can be learned through videos, books, and trial and error. Screwing up a lot of those drills and having to reteach them doesn't have the potential to ruin them if you done wrong.
Look... in the end I'm not going to judge people for Force Fetching their own dogs. I just believe if you have no experience doing it that 1- it's not something you can learn from watching a video on TH-cam or DVD or reading an article in gundog magazine, 2 - The risk outweighs the reward and the view more often isn't worth the climb. 3 - Most importantly; if people do try it, and create a ton of negative connotations toward the process in their dogs head , please don't expect a pro to reverse all the damage that was done. I, and many pros I know, and have spoken too, hate nothing more then trying to clean up the phycological damage owners create trying to force fetch their own dogs.
It’s not that I don’t agree with you but what do you expect people to do that just can’t do that for various reason for example there are no trainers in my entire state or area that I know of. And what about for the people that want to train a duck dog but just can’t afford to pay a trainer. Your service are not cheap and I understand why that’s not what I’m arguing but not everyone can afford your service so what are they to do in your opinion. Please don’t tell me “well they shouldn’t own a dog then because that’s just not right”
Matthew
My suggestion would be to try find a trainer outside your area that would take the dog for In-Kennel-Training. It will require saving up but it will be worth the money. I'm merely recommending you hire this portion of the training out not the entire process. I really believe everyone is absolutely capable of training all the other parts of a well trained Gundog and I encourage that! I just highly discourage doing the FF on your own. I've just seen to many horrible outcomes when folks with no experience try this part of the process on their own. That was the main motivation behind creating this video.
Thanks for your thoughtful comments
Force fetch is not absolutley necessary 100 percent of the time. Forcing everything with the collar is Also not 100 percent necessary. Depends on the dog. This guy thinks he knows everything though
I've been professionally training for 20 years and would never claim to know everything. In that twenty years I've seen many people attempt to force fetch a dog and royally screw it up. Then expect that a pro will fix it for them. This video was created in an attempt to keep people from going that road. I would agree that force fetch is not necessary 100 percent of the time (I never said that it is). But if you are going to use pressure as a way to reinforce the fetch and hold you better know what your doing because it can be a road of no return. Thanks for sharing your thoughts Chad 😉
All I’m getting is to send the dog to a professional trainer and spend hundreds of dollars for something you can do yourself. This isn’t rocket science. Take your time and consistency is the key. I’m not a professional but able to achieve desired results.
Good luck. Beware of the tips and tricks you'll find on TH-cam they are incomplete. As they say "you get what you pay for" 😉
Lol so how did you learn? Of course the dog trainer would tell you to pay him to train your dog..
Like most educated trainers, I apprenticed fulltime under a pro for almost a year. Trust me. There are easier ways to make a living then FF a dog. This video was created to heed warning to people who are naive to the challenges of force fetch. Not drum up business. I always love the up tick in views and sarcastic comments on this video this time of year. Just before the hunting season begins folks want that dog to "Just bring me the bird". They hear about this "Force Fetch" process and away they going. Off to TH-cam to solve my problems 😊😊 The sad part is when folks bring us broken dogs because they tried the process themselves. Then expect us to pull off a miracle and reverse the dogs negative experience that the owners created.
How are you supposed to get to do hundreds of dogs if you don’t start with the first? There’s plenty of resources like courses, patreon, trainers that could walk someone through it.. you don’t need to do it alone I agree but i think there is a lot to learn for the dog and the trainer in doing it yourself. Lots and lots of videos on TH-cam of professional trainers showing you exactly how to do it
If you watched my entire video you'd know I touched on all your comments. As like most people in any profession, I started under the supervision of a professional for almost a year and FF 5 dogs from start to finish before heading out on my own. After that I FF two personal dogs before taking on any clients. Each one of those dogs domineers was different and no video would've ever taught me what I learned in that first year. I did my best in my video to explain that there are so many nuances to the process and each individual dog has his/her own reaction that it can be dangerous and naive to believe your going to get the same reaction as one of those dogs in a video. You can watch a video of a trainer FF a dog and believe that your dog is going to respond the same way but in most cases he/she will not. You are correct. There are tons of videos trying to teach folks about the FF process. As far as I know mine is the only one discouraging first timers from attempting it. I made the video because I've seen people ruin good retrievers and then come to trainers like me to try to repair it and often the first comment out of their mouth is "I saw a video on TH-cam". With all that said, it's a free country and you are more then welcome to try the process on your own but you should know you really only get one shot at doing it right so you better not screw it up. Good luck and thanks for your comment.
You're not gonna learn it, if you don't do it...so you are talking out both sides of your mouth.... FF is the greatest thing since sliced bread....some guys can do it and read a dog, and have the patience, and can give the proper pressure at the proper time/moment..... and some can not. The latter is the type that should not train a dog......
If you begin force fetching a dog improperly there's not much chance you can turn it around. Very few times when training in pressure situations, do you have the opportunity to get a second chance to make a first impression. My main point to the video was to help people who have never Force Fetched a dog, understand that its not as simple as what you see on the internet. There are to many nuances in the process that can't be taught in a TH-cam video.
As to speaking out of both sides of my mouth, let me make myself perfectly clear. If you have never Forced Fetched a dog you should not do it. It's a stupid thing to do and there's to much at risk. I know this because of the repair jobs people have paid me to do. If you ask me "well them how did you learn" Please read other comments below because it's already asked and answered.
Final Thought:
Rebuilding a car can be done as an amateur as well. If you take your time and you study the process and you learn from your mistakes and you have the money to go back and fix your mistakes. Just like everything else in life. Some parts of that process should be left to those who have experience. If I've never rebuilt a transmission can I "learn" how to do it if I'm patient enough and have the right resource, maybe, But rather then take the chance of royally screwing it up. I'll go a head and hire that part out.
Now with all that said, we still live in a free country and people can do as they want. But if someone else is reading this and tries this process on their own and screws it up. PLEASE don't call a pro to fix it. The dirty little secret that pro's have is that we hate remodels, especially if we have to start at the foundation.
@@flycreekkennels9559 ...if it weren't for rebuilds and screw ups, you wouldn't have a job. 😀
@@outdoorrn2980 Actually that's not true. I've been doing this long enough where I won't take remodels anymore. I do new Construction only, That's why I do these videos. I'm trying to keep people from going down the wrong road and biting off more then they can chew.
@@flycreekkennels9559....Good luck with that. :)
Thanks captain obvious, you gonna train my dog for free? Great way to promote your business. You should put this video on your business page.
You get what you pay for Kobe. Somethings in dog training are worth hiring out to those with experience. But you would've have know that if watched the whole video. With that lack of attention span you'll never learn to force fetch your dog on your own especailly from a TH-cam video. Good luck with your dog. I hope I'm wrong about you but my experience tells me this video was designed for owners just like you.
What are you looking for? Lots of views?
I deal with a lot of misinformed clients who believe they can force fetch their own dogs so I'm looking to be honest about what I think is the best way to force fetch your dog.
I appreciate the comment and thanks for watching.
@@flycreekkennels9559 I’m no pro and taught many dogs force fetch. Patience and reps
@@billmazeymazey5226 That is correct. Along with many other elements.
Glad you've been successful on your own.
I still wouldn't recommend it for an inexperienced handler.
Thanks for your comments and thanks for watching 👍🏻
So zero information about the best method as your title says but nothing more than a lecture and advertisement instead
The method is to hire a reputable pro. In my humble opinion, Force Fetch is beyond the pay grade of many amateur handlers. The beauty of this country is that you still have the right to take other peoples advise. This is just mine. Good Luck
Very discouraging. This video leads me to believe that it's hopeless for me to ever learn. Why not create a really good video series to help people learn. Honestly videos like this seem to be a bit self serving.
I'm sincere when I say I'm sorry to be discouraging Rob. The video might seem direct and to the point but it was produced in response to 19 years of training experiences. I'm discouraged with how many people try the process on their own and really mess up, what (I believe) could have been a confident, enthusiastic retriever. Then bring the dog to me, or a trainer like me, and expect us to psychologically reverse the negative experience the dog has had on the table.
The Video is most definitely self serving. I'm trying to avoid the uncomfortable conversation of telling an owner that the damage they have done is irreversible. I'm trying to be honest and educate people (on a wide scale) the incredible number of nuances that a person (with no experience) can encounter when trying to FF their own dog. The nuances that you can't teach in a video but only learn through a good, hands on, mentor. There are plenty of videos on the net or DVD that will take you through the process and try to explain the step by step equation of a FF. I know. I've watched them. You never see a video that teaches you about the pitfalls you might run into. That's because they can't teach that in a video. There's hundreds of instinctive, decisive decisions that need to be made when a trainer encounters those pitfalls. The problem is that all dogs are different. How they respond to the process is different and reactions they have on the table can be different. For someone to produce a video and post it as if this is the way you should do it, to me is irresponsible and extremely self serving "Look at me I can force fetch a dog".
Look, I'm just trying to warn people that once you jump off that cliff and begin imprinting the dog to the process, You better get it right. Because if you don't, it's very difficult to turn back and make it a positive experience for the dog.
The example I like to give is simple. I could learn how to pour a foundation for a new home on TH-cam. Not a slab but a foundation. I have decent understanding of construction and If I take my time and I'm methodical I could probably do it. But what if I begin the pour and run into a pitfall. A problem that only a professional with experience can solve (which most likely will happen). I could tear it all out if my budget allowed and start over. Maybe even learn my lesson and hire a professional the next go around. Well unfortunately Animals minds don't work that way. Once you've "broken" a dog it's very difficult, if not impossible, to "fix" the dog. Sometimes the only fix is to start over with a new dog. That's why I put the video together. I'm just trying to be honest which often derives from being self serving.
If your dog has the right desire, already loves to retrieve and your looking for a program to help you teach your dog to deliver to hand, I would recommend Bill Hillmans Fetch command DVD. It is probably the most thorough program to help you accomplish delivery to hand if you've never force fetched a dog. Easy to find online. Good luck with your pups training.
@@flycreekkennels9559 I understand and I appreciate you sharing. My 19-year-old just got his first pup, (i have had several) he is trying to learn as much as he can and he wants to do it right. But now he is finding out the only way to do it right is to spend $600 a month until the job is done. He wants the satisfaction of accomplishment. I understand that you as a trainer have seen a lot of dogs and you have seen a lot ruined. I would bet you have seen a lot of people do well with their dogs also. I wished my son could find some help and encouragement.
I have seen some success stories with FF by amateurs. They are few and far between. I guess i dont see it much because nobody hires a pro when the training is going well. I admire your son for wanting to train his own dog. It's very possible for him to do it but somethings (like FF) should be hired out. Just my opinion. I've heard cornerstone program (online program) has been a good program for beginners. There's a subscription cost but cheaper then hiring a pro. Not sure it covers FF but it might. Most gun dog training can be done by the owners if they put the time in. Again. The force is something I wouldn't play around with if your inexperienced. Thanks for commenting on the video and Good luck with the new dog
@@flycreekkennels9559 understood. Thank you for the tip.
@@robparker3470 you bet
Guys you should walk away from this video and trainer, Chris Akin goes to nationals and wins more titles with dogs he trains than this guy could dream about and in duck dog basics he force fetches right out of a bed of a side by side. Location isn't as important and getting the dog off the ground and the method of training. The arrogance of this guy is astounding and comical. A real trainer needs to be flexible and cater each lesson specifically to the dog and it's learning method...like teachers and kids a lot of it is manipulation and psychological...but remember the dogs are excited to please...that wasn't trained in them...they love to work and serve us...a good trainer is someone that can help the dog learn and understand despite what assets he has...I've learned from a guy who does so much with so little and has a National Master titled dog that took first in a NUCS competition her first time running it. Guys you have the right to walk away but don't be silly... voice concerns and ask questions that's how we all learn.
Nicole
Thanks for your comments. You should be so brave to leave the comment section open on the videos you create. As for Chris Akin, I'll let his work speak for itself. In response to my so called "arrogance". It's actually frustration. I produced this video to heed the warning to first timers that Force Fetch is not as simple as it is portrayed on a TH-cam. The frustration has developed over years because amateurs screwing up their dogs and then expecting a pro to come in and fix it. That conversation typically leads with " I watched a video on TH-cam" You stated it perfectly in your comment Nicole "A real trainer needs to be flexible and cater each lesson specifically to the dog and it's learning method...like teachers and kids a lot of it is manipulation and psychological. " How can a good teacher possibly do that through a video series on TH-cam that uses one or two dogs as an example? Any "real" trainer knows you can't. What always amuses me about folks like yourself that like to attack my character and this video is that I'm simply heeding a warning that maybe this step of the training should be left to those who have experience.
Good luck to you and your dogs Nicole.