Black Panther - Creating an Empathetic Villain
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- Listen to our podcast episode on Black Panther: apple.co/3jwSGZC
Killmonger is a great example of how an antagonist can challenge the hero not just through confrontation and violence, but by representing something that affects the hero emotionally.
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Clearly both The Joker and Killmonger are great antagonists-what are some of your favorite villains / antagonists?
Lessons from the Screenplay The Dark Knight's Joker is still the GOAT
Lessons from the Screenplay Anton Chigurh from No Country For Old Men.
Lessons from the Screenplay my favourite antagonist is Antony Hopkins's Hannibal Lecter. Brilliant writing and brilliant performance.
Hans Lada easily
Hans Landa from Inglourious Basterds was great.
The way you edited the black panther soundtrack into the video really sold me, you should touch on that a bit in your videos, as in how sounds also affect us making scenes that much more impactful
Another aspect I find interesting is how in any other movie, the heir to the throne being raised in an outside land and then returning home after many years to claim his rightful place would be the hero, not the villain. (Hell, we're getting a superhero movie later this year that is exactly that.) This movie flips that premise on its head and shows the flaws in over-correcting.
BattleUp Saber huh. What movies?
@@charlieshin9868 Aqua man. AKA Dude-Bro goes to Sea world.
Charlie Shin the lion king?
As he beat king tchalla, the throne is rightfully his via tradition. Which is why tradition was no longer the priority by the end of the film.
As he beat king tchalla, the throne is rightfully his via tradition. Which is why tradition was no longer the priority by the end of the film.
The scene where Killmonger is reunited with his father's spirit and he doesn't cry moves me to tears. It shows just how much he has suffered, that even his father's death doesn't affect him anymore.
Such a great scene, and surprising to see in a Marvel film.
I loved the duality of that scene. T'Chala's astral plane was a beautiful African landscape. KM's was his shabby Oakland apartment in the hood where his father died. It was hard not to sympathize with KM knowing that a world like what T'Chala existed while he was relegated to a world that was cruel to him (not that it justify's KM's ultimate end goals).
jzderf exactly!! The contrast between those two scenes was superbly executed. It's these kind of details that make this movie awesome.
Would've been far more effective if the film had him crying over his dad a lot earlier in the film, would've shown progression.
He actually does cry, check out the scene again.
I think the contrast with the protagonist is important too. Killmonger is raw and oozes cool. Black Panther is kind of prim/proper/bland. Killmonger is driven and super decisive. Black Panther is a bit wishy washy, and his weakness is he freezes when the stakes are high.
Super smart to have Killmonger have that American urban black accent and Black Panther with the regal African accent too.
BP when the stakes are high is "like an antelope in headlights"
T'Challa had a family who loved him and was thrown into the Big Chair with zero notice: th-cam.com/video/VYi14gKiJ1M/w-d-xo.html Killmonger lived in a world of jerkitude where might makes right.
👀
Patrick Wong Excellent points. T’Challa has been sheltered with two powerful supportive parents and Erik has grown up with out his father in the streets of Oakland. Both of their attitudes are based on their environments.
T'Challa is also a King, which affects his decisions. He's very calculative, if he behaved like Killmonger, then Infinity War would've been a very short film. There would've been a civil war in Wakanda, and foreign governments would've had access to vibranium from the terrorists.
Those matching shots at 4:56. I see you with the clever editing!
The editing is usually great, but in this one it was perfect!
@@CaesarCassius
Correction! *Some sold (not) their own people. Sad how some still think of Africa as a country smh. Most African sold slaves were POWs from regional conflicts (not their own people), the rest were kidnapped by European slavers. On the other hand, several African leaders such as Abd al-Qadir actively resisted the slave trade in various parts of the continent through history.?
Forms of slavery existed in Africa before Europeans arrived. Some countries in the African continent had their own systems of slavery. People were enslaved as punishment for a crime, payment for a debt or as a prisoner of war. However, African slavery was different from what was to come later.
Most enslaved people were captured in battle.In some kingdoms, temporary slavery was a punishment for some crimes.
In some cases, enslaved people could work to buy their freedom.
Children of enslaved people did not automatically become slaves.
And they didn't ship them overseas to work and die on plantations for centuries.
I'm not saying African people didn't gave slavery, I'm saying Transatlantic Slavery was far more widespread and cruel than anything that had come before or after.?
Nice way of dodging the fact you said "their own people". It was more complex than that. European/American demand for slaves was so high that it disrupted African trade markets. It's economics (supply and demand), at one point the demand for slaves surpassed the value of gold itself! That means African nations that didn't trade slaves couldn't get good value out of their products and were worse off for it.?
Come on, Killmonger does not hold a candle to Heath ledger's Joker.
Queso Vadotas I am not sure anyone was comparing Killmonger to Heath Ledger’s Joker but if you think so that’s fine
I've said this before, but will say it again.
The fact that we're saying all this about a guy called "Kill Monger" is one of the biggest successes of this film.
He's so cool!
I call him erik
*about a guy who tried to start a world wide race war.
Then again you cant say Hitler wasn't a good villain.
@@knockitoffhudson3470 what is Hitler's motivation? As far as I know he wasn't oppressed. Killmonger wanted to fight his race's oppressors. Hitler just want to kill other races, especially Jews.
@@rafdizon8416 Hitler gave the German people weaponry to fight their oppressors too. Its easy to justify things if you want to.
Your analysis of movies and characters are amazing, it's like all of the things that I grasp at but can't put into words you're able to flawlessly enunciate it's fantastic.
Thank you!
Another A+ essay my friend
Thanks Hunter! And thanks for supporting the channel :)
Lessons from the Screenplay This kind of channel deserves it
Another fantastic video essay, as always! And perhaps the smoothest SkillShare segue I've ever heard.
Definitely.
I've been watching this channel since the very first video and I'm so proud of how far you've come. I've long since thought that Killmonger was a fantastic villain, and this managed to encapsulate my thoughts perfectly.
Love this man, I cannot WAIT to see more from you B)
Thank you!
ik this is an old af comment but I can't see the appeal with this movie, terrible Cgi, dumb plot holes, terrible jokes and unlikeable characters, sure the actings good but thats the same as any other marvel movie
Apartment scene was most saddest villain scene in mcu.
Wow, you finally got through to me. I talked to so many people in the black diaspora, but I could not figure out why Black Panther's Killmonger angered me in a very personal way and almost ruined this incredible movie for me. As a Ugandan-American woman who lived in both countries for significant parts of my life, I am acutely aware of the unseen, unspoken 'intraracial' tension between African-Americans and black Africans. It's a lot more prevalent and insidious than most people know or expect. I experienced such nonsense in high school for not being 'black' enough but my hometown also raised me to see African-Americans as "lesser, obnoxious." After all, the kids on playground calling Africans 'African booty-scratcher' were actually not the white kids. College completely changed my life and perspective on this topic but I still took every action of Killmonger against Wakanda really personally. First off, I dealt with that 'intraracial' tension all through college and the last thing I wanted Black Panther to do was center on that tension. I just wanted a break to celebrate Mother Africa for the first time in one of my favorite film genres. Secondly, I could not figure out why until I realized Wakanda was this beautiful vision of East Africa that I desperately needed the West to see. And then comes along not the traditional white colonist to destroy it but what I perceived as a the entitled African-American (who has a monopoly on all things black). No regard for the culture, history, fragility, uniqueness but seeking only vengeance and anarchy. Not even halfway into my beautiful vision, and it was almost destroyed. The only time I cried during the movie was the moment Killmonger torched the sacred gardens; I audibly winced. That burning of those sacred gardens killed any shred of empathy I wanted to have for Killmonger. This video gave me back that empathy. I was also convicted of my view of African-Americans as entitled and insensitive. It was problematic for so many reasons and I sincerely apologize. You see, I often feel like Afrocentrism is trendy and borderline fetishized today. I fought to defend and elevate the continent for so long that I forgot African-Americans may not have my birthright and experience, but they can claim the same heritage and I must welcome them into African cultural exchange. Especially since they were disgustingly robbed of their birthright and experience over 400 years ago. Thank you so much for your hard work and analysis, Lessons from the Screenplay. Also, been following you since The Anatomy of the Obsessed Artist, keep it going! If you read till the end, God bless you haha.
I find your comments most interesting. You articulate well the conflict, for lack of a better word, between African Americans and people from the countries of Africa. I do think a great number of African Americans do not notice or appreciate those differences. And any perceived arrogance is probably associated with just the general American belief that we are the best, even with all our problems. Being a very large country, in a different hemisphere, most Americans do not have the experience of experiencing other countries and cultures first hand, as those who are geographically close do. I have witnessed several times the disdain that Africans seem to have for American blacks. They do not seem to identify with them as "brothers." I think this can be confusing for African Americans because, being a minority, there is always a little comfort in seeing someone else that "looks like us" in the room. It is a little safer with another "brother"in the room. I am happy that this video, and the movie, provided some enlightenment. It is always good when something that is entertaining can also be thought provoking. I too was very disturbed by the burning of the garden. It just seemed such a waste of everything.
" The only time I cried during the movie was the moment Killmonger torched the sacred gardens; I audibly winced."
It's interesting how people can see the same movie and get different meanings or focus on different scenes. Frankly that scene you described did not really register to me much at all. The scenes that were powerful for me were the different Killmonger vs T'Challa father scenes and their different perspectives based on how they grew up. I say this as an hispanic man. The whole African vs African-American perspective you brought up just makes me appreciate this movie even more. My wife is from Kenya and she had told me about that disconnect between Africans and black Americans.
God bless you too sister
This was so beautifully written and simultaneously heartbreaking to boot :’(
This was hard for my heart to read but I am happy you overcame the limitations of that younger perspective. I hesitate to admit that I have only ever felt such tension coming from Africans aimed at African Americans. I still don’t understand it. I am a first generation Jamaican-American so have had a POV of both sides of the line my whole life. I never felt that African Americans were unwelcoming to their African brothers without the unspoken understanding that they were unwelcome/undesired by Africans. African Americans, more than anything, have an ongoing fascination, longing and respect for Mother Africa. I hate that they/we are met with such judgement. Broadly speaking, we are the product of this country and although imperfect, we’d like nothing but to be “claimed” by our own people. But alas, we are too often treated as the bastard children of Africa despite us being stolen from the land!
HEAVY TOPIC!
To me, Black Panther reminds me of a Shakespeare play. Killmonger really stands out like a good Shakespeare villain: memorable because of his charisma and the extremes he goes into, to the point that the audience might end up rooting for him. (Think Richard III) Plus, there's a family tie, which makes things very similar to Hamlet. T'Challa, on the other hand, reminds me of "Hal" from the History of King Henry (4 and 5), a king who has to learn responsibility and put his kingship into practice. The end of this movie is very similar to how Henry V ended as well, with a peaceful time jump after the period of war.
The Joker is much more modern, taking inspiration from horror movies and characters like Alex from A Clockwork Orange. He's memorable because he's scary and can't be reasoned with.
Thanks for making this video!
Interesting points! Thanks for sharing :)
That can be say about Loki too.
I didn't notice that fact until you brought it up
I never thought of a Shakespeare character for T'Challa but a bit of me was thinking that Killmonger was almost like Edmund from 'King Lear' - outcast because he was illegitimate and wanting what he felt he had a right to (and going way too far with it). I could see Killmonger saying "Thou Nature art my goddess" even if the rest of that speech didn't apply to him.
At first i didn't see the hype why everyone liked him as a villain so much but each time i watch the movie i love it more and more.
Frankly, I still don't see it. There's a lot I liked about the film, and as far as _Marvel_ villains go, Killmonger is definitely near the top (which isn't actually saying much since most of them are completely forgettable), but when you step outside of the Marvel cinematic series... I don't see the magic.
I don't see Killmonger as Heath Ledger Joker 2.0.
That's why I keep looking at things like this video; to try to understand why this isn't clicking with me.
Zedek I do think Killmonger is a great villain, but the reason you might not feel that way is because he spent only the second half of the film as the primary antagonist-after killing Klaue. Some people felt they didn’t get enough time to invest. I think his motivations and actions speak for themselves, but for some people that level of time for the villain to connect to the plot is really important.
So for me the greatness of the character is in the fact that his is relatable. He is clearly a villain yet you can completely understand where his motivations are coming from and honestly there aren't many people of color that have not had or would have his same thoughts and ideas. There is a level of anger that you feel when you truly understand the history of the world that cant be really understood from the outside.
UltimateKyuubiFox I also think his credibility was throw into a generic exposition when the Air Force guy ran down a list of his credentials in Shuri's lab. I wish we would have seen his MIT or military background to add some weight to his danger. We see 2 heists he pulls off, but that wasn't yet supervillain level feats. We are simply told how dangerous he is. Honestly, dont know where they would have had time to include his background, but it would have been nice
True, they could've done a quick flashback sequence or something
One more thing to create an empathetic villain: a cool theme music. Killmonger probably has the most identifiable villain music in MCU.
It is pretty awesome.
@who is annie? thank youuu
It's quite a unique theme blending African tribal sounds with American urban hip hop
Yeah, him and Thanos have the most identifiable themes.
Black Panther probably has one of the most memorable soundtracks in the MCU tbh.
Rest in power Chadwick Boseman! Thank you for all of what you did! ✊🏼 #WakandaForever
Some villains make heroes better.
And Eric Killmonger is a perfect example for it.
While the Joker and Batman fought for the soul of Gotham, Killmonger and T'challa fought for the soul of Wakanda.
TheCrazyhumans damn dude that's deep
...no
Killmonger and T'Challa simply fought over Wakanda.
Killmonger and T'Challa literally fought over Wakanda, not the people. Joker and Batman had to prove their opposite points by questioning how much humanity is left in the people of Gotham.
+TheBasaltHorogium
That's pretty much it. For Batman and the Joker it's about proving something considering humanity. Killmonger isn't really interested in anything beyond taking something. Which is principally fine, if we got more to see of his character.
I think one of the biggest points they got across with Killmonger is that Killmonger is Nakia's perspective but poisoned by American militaristic perspective. Wakanda very strongly expresses that women should be seen as strong and as equal as men. Many of T'challa's shortcomings in the movie are solved by listening to the important women in his life. Then you go to Killmonger who has unfairly been corrupted by a society that doesn't value the voices of women. His idea of a perfect utopia for black people does not include women (we see this cause a lot of violence he inflicts in the movie is towards women). Look at how proud Everett Ross is in the soldier he built and then we see him using the tactics he learned in war on Wakanda. I think Killmonger best expresses the myth of post-colonialism and the reminder of how deep the claws are still dug into people and that's what makes his mostly sympathetic and understandable perspective go off a little.
Also damn if Sterling K Brown isn't fantastic even with like two scenes to work with.
Interesting you should say that. I love Sterling K Brown and I did not think he was great in this. Maybe it was the role he was given, but it felt just so so to me.
smtucker0419 I mean it might just be that marvel acting in general tends to just be serviceable but never anything standout. So maybe it wasn’t spectacular in a vacuum but there was a lot more subtlety in the emotion in his face than I’m used to seeing in a marvel movie.
Yes I agree the emotion in his face was profound. I felt like he wasn't really nailing the accent thing - which I think would be a very hard thing to do and am always impressed how actors can seem to turn accents on and off.
I think you are reading way too much into it. Killmonger inflicts a lot of violence towards women because in Wakanda, lots of women are in power, and directly oppose him, except for that one white lady he got mad at when we first see him in action. Switch all the women that Killmonger attacks with men, and nothing about the movie or Killmonger's character changes, except now people would complain that there aren't enough women in the movie.
Also, stop perpetrating that America doesn't care about women. It's not true. Plus, Killmonger gained his perspective from his father's death and living in poor black communities, everything he does afterward, like joining the military, was in service of the goal of his perspective. So, if he was going learn to treat women like you say he did, it would have been from black communities, but I don't think you want to argue for.
He murders his girlfriend, too. In fact, the only character(s) he kills in the entire movie that isn't a woman is Zuri (and arguably Klaw, though we never see him die). If you think that's unintentional, I dunno what to tell you. Even if you read it only so deep that he's T'Challa's foil in how they treat the women around them, it's still purposeful. And you're assuming the OP doesn't want to make that argument about black communities, but they're very clearly speaking about post-colonialism, which is inherently *about* black communities, so that's a bad assumption.
WAKANDA FOREVER
R.I.P Chadwick Boseman
You are my favorite Subscription and you continually prove that time and time again.
Wow. Thank you so much, that means a lot :)
Lessons from the Screenplay I learn a lot from your work when I write screenplays myself. I'm able to identify conflict and when and where to use types of conflict to push my characters. Your work inspires me to dig into my stories deeper to find where the real story is. Thank you and don't stop making these videos.
RIP Chadwick
Seems like a good place to remind people that calling a movie "overrated" isn't a way of saying you don't like something, it's a way of saying your don't like how much *other people* like something. Y'all gotta stop using that word.
Breaking Banter +
Mac _ Western societies and the internet have pushed individualism too far that every edge lords think the worlds revolve around them and their OPINIONS has as much weight as others and they have the god given right to express them blindly. The word overrated is just an easy way to disagree with the mass for the sake of it. People need to understand that freedom of speach is not equal to I can say whatever i want and opinions are not some random shits to spill out. This sort of mindset is dangerous because its lead to more polarizing ideas, conflicts and extremism without a middle ground, a trend we are seeing in western polictics and societies.
Malcador the Sigillite
Ok liberal
Yep. You made his point for him
It's generally very well liked so calling it overrated can be completely justified if you don't think it's any good.
I think this also applies to Magneto, both Sir Ian Mckellen and Michael Fassbender's performances as them. I think Magneto is one of the prime examples of an empathetic villain who not only challenges the ideals of the opposition (Charles Xavier), but challenges the worse of humanity in general.
I was surprised how good this movie was, it wasn't perfect by any means but still very enjoyable to watch. Great video!
It certainly came closer to living up to the immense hype better than Wonder Woman did.
Lol surprised
Skillshare ad fits perfectly.
don't it though ?
I just showed your Video about the Joker in my script writing class as part of a presentation on writing an antagonist. Good thing that I'm still writing the handouts, so that I can add this to my recommendations. Even on of the question was how we can create more sympathetic antagonists. Now I can just show than this^^
I really love your videos and the way you analyse this story in a easy to understand fashion. Thank you for your hard work.
That's awesome! I'm glad to hear the videos are so useful :)
As a writer, I find your love for the art of character creation and depth inspiring. It has led to me trying to explore all of my characters with the same furor. Without following only the protagonist and developing them, I have now taken to developing my antagonists with same depth and consistency I would give a protagonist. So, on behalf of my burgeoning writing career, I thank you.
Amazing! That's so awesome to hear! Keep going!
Every screenwriting class should have the TDK video as required viewing. That was the first LFTS video I saw, and I've been hooked ever since. Michael is phenomenal.
Oh, wow. LFTS doing Killmonger? If this is half as good as the one about TDK's Joker, it's gonna be worth the wait to watch it tonight on the big TV.
Howard Beale too bad the movie wasnt even 1/5th as good as the dark night.
O...K..? Thanks for your opinion, I guess.
Howard Beale Nah! Imo joker was wayy better. This villain is cliche af
JJ Smith “the big tv” sounds like something I would say as a kid when I’m excited about watching something in the living room instead of my 13” in my room. 😂
Pleeeeease do a video on Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
This will happen.
I love you Michael, more and more XD
Oh my gosh, I'm such a fan, thank you!
This was such a refreshing movie in the whole Marvel cinematic universe. Michael B. absolutely killed it with his role, It was the first time in a while I felt something I could relate to in the "villain." Great video Michael, keep up the good work and take care!
Agreed!
Hands down. Best villain in the MCU.
Yup! Thanks to Ryan Coogler and Joe Robert Cole
Ik its an old post but I am really trying to like this movie buts its just so terrible to me, tell me whats so good about it
@@tristanlanphere7736 it's not an exceptional film, tho it's better than its peers in some aspects like leaving a cultural impact and all
@@VikrantPatankar13 oh fair enough
Unpopular opinion here, but I was not a fan of Michael B. Jordan as Killmonger. To say his performance was nearly as riveting as Heath Ledgers Joker, is laughable.
Michael, I'm surprised you seemed to enjoy his performance, and his character.
Well at no point did I talk about his performance (though I thought it was good, but Heath’s is on another, impossible level). I thought what Killmonger represented brought a dose of reality and complexity to the MCU that hadn’t existed for me before.
This is fair. It was my mistake to lump your assessment of performance and character design together.
You’ve given me very useful framework for analyzing story through your videos. Thank you for the new and fresh insights and great overall content!
Hans Landa, Anton chigurh and Norman Bates were some of the most memorable villains for me.
Three of the best.
Great choices!
I second this, Killmonger doesn't even come remotely close. Also add John Doe ;)
Pratik Mantri Norman Bates didn’t really feel like the villain until the end though. He felt more like a main character after the girl died.
Do an episode on Infinity War.
He really should. Pathos made Thanos an equally compelling antagonist.
Uwaaa! Just by watching this essay my blood was rushing again with enthusiasm for Black Panther. Killmonger grew yearning and dreaming about Wakanda and his father always thought that he would eventually go back - it's incredible how this feeling resonates not only with African Americans but with anyone whose roots have been transplanted to another country/culture. Thank you for rekindling our love for Black Panther Michael! Wakanda Forever!!!
Also, I love that a movie that at it's heart is a movie about interracial unity and cooperation made so many people scream that it was antiwhite.
anjetto1 Might be because the film does treat Killmonger as empathetic. It doesn’t exactly disagree with his (anti white) message, just with his method.
sheikaboudi "Wakanda will no longer watch from the shadows. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one, single tribe." By the end, this film clearly disagrees with Killmonger's anti-white message.
Like I said, it definitely disagrees with Killmonger's proposed solution, but I wouldn't say the film clearly disagrees with his message. It certainly paints him as someone justified in their anger, even if it doesn't agree with his extremism. This is not to say the the film is anti-white.
sheikaboudi his anger is totally justified. Just not his beliefs or methods. And his anger is almost totally focused on wakanda itself. His ancestral home. That is what tchalla agrees with at the end. That they were wrong too. But man. The amount of white people I had screaming at me, in person, about this movie after it came out would've been heart breaking if I hadn't seen it coming.
anjetto1 I’m going to have to disagree with the suggestion that most of his anger was at Wakanda when his plan was literally to murder/enslave all white people. Yes, he was angry at Wakanda for not intervening, but the impetus and focus of the majority of his anger is a white people. Also, not clue where you’re at, but all I saw was white people sitting next to black people (some dressed in African garb), and all enjoying what was ultimately an entertaining movie (much more so than the complete drags Thor: Ragnorok and Infinity War).
I liked the concept of Killmonger a lot better than the execution. I felt they threw in needless unmotivated villain moments that undercut the empathy they were trying to create for him like when he's choking old ladies or killing his girlfriend. It almost seemed like the creators were afraid they were making Killmonger TOO empathetic so they added these over the top moments that made him less human and more cartoony. Even without those scenes there was enough there for us to know Killmonger was going too far.
Another, more subjective factor, is I didn't really get into Michael B Jordan's performance. I generally like him but this performance felt kind of one note for me. Lots of yelling and scowling and pouting. I honestly wish Sterling K Brown had been cast as Killmonger as he steals the film with the couple of scenes he's in and could have brought even more depth to the villain.
I really liked Michael B Jordan's performance, especially the yelling, scowling, and pouting, because of how he is given a character who is basically a Bond villain (a highly intelligent covert operative/war strategist who overthrows countries) and played it as aggressively Urban-Black-American as possible.
It would've been incredibly easy to make the character posh, stoic, and upper-class, stereotypes commonly associated with every crown-stealing British bad guy, but they chose not to.
"The movie was based on marvel comics so of course he's cartoony."
It isn't a cartoony film though. Guardians of the Galaxy is, Black Panther takes itself a whole lot more serious.
I loved the scene where he killed his girlfriend because I hate villain fangirls so much. Aside from that, I think the point of that scene was to show just how ruthless he is, how he'll kill literally anyone to get to his throne.
Atlas Films I totally disagree with your assessment. There were no over the top Killmonger moments. Sterling Brown was sterling Brown! Always excellent, but to say he stole the film is not only untrue but also an insult to a stellar cast and true ensemble effort. As a filmmaker I have seen this film over 10 time and ALWAYS find a new dimension. There are flaws, but the are few. Over all this was wonderously imagined and executed production. Mr. Cooglar and his creative team knock it out of the park and into legend.
+The little red haired girl from across the street
Doing stuff like that is pretty standard at this point. It also doesn't help that they just do not have an established relationship.
The comment from Joe Robert Cole (co-writer of Black Panther), is pure genius and I absolutely love it: "Sometimes it's how far you take things that makes you a villain, and not necessarily the perspective". This really helps define the great modern villains such as Heath Ledger's Joker, Thanos and Killmonger.
am i the only one that thinks killmonger is overrated?
i mean i get that his story is sad... but michael b jordan's acting in the movie is really not that good
Rip chawicke boseman 😭😭🙏🏿
I have literally spent the last several months talking to everyone that watches Black Panther with me--from my mom to my English professor--about how powerful Killmonger's character and the film's writing are because of the way it subverts your expectations of others. I'm so happy to finally get this video from you!
As much as I froth this movie and it's villain, there seems to be this continued trend in blockbusters to either have a villain that's either an understandable, empathetic dark mirror of the hero or just some useless "I want to end the world for reasons" dumpster fire.
I miss the genuinely nasty villains that we can't understand like TDKs Joker, Hannibal Lecter, Hans Landa, Anton Chigurh, Calvin Candie, etc. Just give us more of those genuinely bad dudes with no redeeming qualities. We can handle it.
Same. I really miss the pure evil villains in cinema. Hopefully we can see some of them in the future.
Breaking Banter Unrelated but that's why I like All For One from My Hero Academia, he's such a bastard. We need more villains like that in movies.
Breaking Banter exactly man I was saying the same thing and everyone says that type of villain is “outdated” or it can’t be good. But I’m just like huh? The most iconic villains are the ones who can’t be understood or just purely evil monsters
+Half-Finis Sometimes you don't really need to give much motivations. The secret lies in how much sinister and evil the villain is to be memorable and great.
Half_Finis Well motivation is only one part of writing a character.
I didn't love Black Panther, but I always love LFTS.
ive seen black panther 3 times but how did this still get me in the feels??????? amazing work, as always!!
10/10 music
Killmonger was a great character, but I honestly did not feel empathy for him. I believe I am not the only one.
yeah his goal was a good one but the execution was bad, eventually he turned in an asshole. he wants to send weapons all over the world and start wars and shit and his dad was basically selling weapons to klaw
HIGH LION Exactly, anyone who tries to rule the world spreading fear, being a mass murderer. No one should feel pity for him.
Killmonger is basically Iraq from Watch Dogs, same hair and everything. I didn't feel bad when he died either.
Well i did
Great video once again Michael!
I’m actually currently working on a rewrite of a middle grade novel where I’m planning for the relationship between the hero and the villain to be the selling point.
The hero is a little girl who loves stories, and wishes for her favourite hero to come to life as she goes on an adventure. However, things change once her belief that all heroes are good people is tested, and she discovers the hidden dark side of the character she looked up to, and become the hero within herself to overcome this.
This video was a massive help in me redesigning how a villain can push a hero, and vice versa.
Thanks again for making such a thoughtful video. Peace.
That sounds like a great story! Best of luck with it!
I defeated him..... that's the bottom line.
Seriously, TH-cam? I had to press refresh on my homepage for LFTS to pop on my feed even though it was posted 16 mins ago? You’re killing me!!
Ughhhh not ideal, TH-cam.
I cannot understand this obsession everyone has with Killmonger, beyond the racial implications.
He is literally the same character as Ronan, who is constantly derided as plain and forgettable, with the only difference that Killmonger is rooted in the context of real world historic racism while Ronan is rooted in fantasy racism. Admittedly, he's more charismatic, but this isn't surprising, given he can use more relatable mannerisms (ie. from the real world) than the much stiffer Ronan.
I can understand the racial resonance, but there's absolutely nothing to him beyond that.
Maybe it is Michael B. Jordan
Yup, it's a shame
Incredible, Michael! Thank you.
Thanks E P!
killmonger is basically the magneto of black panther but somehow tons of people in real life were actually rooting for him
yikes
You do know how and why magneto and mutants created for comics in the first place right?
yikes!!!
Vincent from Collateral is one of my favorite villains. Add Hal 9000 and Hans Gruber to that list.
Good ones!
I write novels and your well thought out and presented lessons have helped me develop my own characters more than any books or classes I've taken. I always eagerly await your next presentation. You never fail to teach me how to grow as a writer. Thank you
this was an amazing video! i always love when you review movies with diverse production crews and casts, especially if those films seemingly came out of left field with their subject matter. personally, i would love to see your take on an animated movie's script such as the Prince of Egypt or Spirited Away
Great video as usual! I have a request: I recently did a re-watch of "Up In The Air" and fell in love with it. Can you do a video about the Juxtaposition of Character's personal philosophy vs their work ideology? I think it would make for a interesting topic.
I *love* that movie! That's been on my list of things to do for a long time.
Please do.
I've only watched this movie once, but this video did a great job of both giving a thorough refresher of every impactful moment Killmonger had in the movie and doing a great analysis of why his character is so fantastic. Amazing content from LFTS.
As always amazing! :) when I see your videos I try to re watch the movie and is if I’m watching a new movie completely :) thank you for these videos :) greetings from Mexico!!!!
Thank you!
The last line combined with the music in the background gave me goosbumps.
Great video. As always.
Killmonger could have been saved… Tchalla at this point lowkey sucked at conflict resolution… an apology.. taking responsibility or something might have gone a long way.. shit the speech he gave to his father I’m sure killmonger would have liked to hear.. put someone like Steve Roger in the exact situation he would have made killmonger an ally.. still my second favorite mcu movie 💯
*"Bury me in the ocean, with my ancestors that jumped from the ships, because they knew death was better than bondage."*
Ending gave me chills. Great works as always. TDK is far better than BP, although the villains are equally mesmerizing.
Thanks Victor! TDK is magic that I don't think can ever be purposefully surpassed.
I'm a huge black panther fan but I do still feel like I enjoyed dk more as a film, it was a better crafted piece overall but I think I sort more enjoyed the experience of bp more. It moved me, had me more emotionally invested than dk did. Dk had the advantage of sort of coming out of nowhere. A juggernaught no one expected or could've foreseen where as bp was 19 movies into this marvel thing and I am sort of fatigued by it. I am curious to know how we would view it if Michael b Jordan had died just before it's release a la heath. Just out of morbid curiosity
gerizzyYMcrew it is tho. Tdk is on another level. Bp is better than the other two for sure
What a positive message for all of us to hear. I've never seen this movie, as I am elderly, disabled, broke, and live in supportive living.
I am in the process of signing up for home delivery from my local library. I will be able to borrow DVD's from them, and I think one of the first ones I want to borrow is Black Panther. It sounds like not just an action movie, but a film with heart and brain and soul.
I love the way this said so many things about this country. Thanks for making this piece, it made me think, it made me cry.
This is one of those cases where the writing was better than the acting. Though I like B Jordan's acting, in this film he seems a bit lacking in his characteristics which is funny because he's from Santa Ana.
Hey!
I like your idea but I still consider Black Panther as a very mundane...movie..no offense..it is definitely good. But I still didn't quite find it to be era defining..
Aayush Covers you can’t name a single movie like Black Panther. Story wise it’s a king comes into his own, but outside that there has never been a movie like Black Panther.
Well, "era defining" is a pretty high bar. I think it was a truly great, well-made movie, that is entertaining culturally significant.
Cultural significance does not equal quality. Black Panther struck a chord with a lot of people and I get that. This, however does not make it a good movie. It is not a bad movie either, it is just average. The bar for villains in the MCU was pretty low and therefore, I think, it was rather easy to stand out for Killmonger as a character especially if you address an absolutely relevant issue using this very character.
Nevertheless, Killmonger's motivation to give out the Phlebotinum technology to his "two billion brothers" seems rather weak. His father was killed by the King of Wakanda and thus it makes sense that Killmonger wants to take revenge on T'Challa. But we, as the audience, never see Killmonger being mistreated by other people. We don't see him suffer from the living conditions and therefore it is rahter difficult to understand his desire to start war against everyone and everything that made him suffer. By taking the throne and killing T'Challa he achieved his goal of taking revenge on the people who killed his father. Killmonger's motivation to go beyond that, is not fully realized, which stems from a flawed characterization.
Lenny Nero exactly my point man!!
Someone gets it..
Lessons from the Screenplay
I'm just seeing this.. I can't believe you replied.. I am so glad.. huge fan!!
I think part of the Killmonger story that a lot of the #KillmongerWasRight folks miss is that his empathetic speeches about helping others in need is somewhat disingenuous in the same way as strongmen like Idie Amin when he would rally against imperialism. Yes, imperialism was bad, but a strongman consolidating power and adopting a militaristic stance is not good either.
I was surprised to not see you use the screenplay at all in this video. Greatly structured video but your use of screenplay is what separates you from other video essay makers.
Many films don't make their screenplays available publicly. Regardless, I still think useful storytelling information can be gleaned from the final product.
Lessons from the Screenplay That makes sense. Your point was well said nevertheless.
AHHHHHH!!!! This was so wonderful!!!!
Thanks Barry!
I personally didn't think killmonger was a great villian and I am a bit surprised that so many people seem to think so. I guess, I'll never understand those Marvel guys ;)
I personally disliked Joker and Loki, one noted villain yet so many people liked it. Same situation!!!
He was the best marvel villain.... but then Thanos came...
Felix SR Killmonger is a better villain than thanos
Shinnybuttnerd Agreed. Just look at all those TH-cam videos about how stupid his plan is.
@@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527 Who Killmonger or Thanos? Because one of them is a madman, it's in his title, and the other is supposed to be sympathetic.
do an analysis on *INFINITY WAR* once it comes out!!
This will most likely happen.
YAAAAAS!!!
I felt killmonger saved the movie for me. The movie felt dry. If they chose to lessen the characters he interacted with it wouldn’t feel like a philosophical mess. It’s only 2 hours and it feels like if they spent longer with it, worked on the dialogue, and had better cinematography it would’ve been easier for me to see why people love it. Instead it felt like it really was a cookie cutter marvel movie in a lot of ways. That said I love your take on this and I’m so glad you’re on here! You challenge my thoughts on movies I love and hate! I love it!
A great antagonist can make or break any movie. I feel that you could even have a passive protagonist, but a strong villain can more than make up for it.
Howard Beale I don’t feel the same way. If you make an antagonist that’s complex and worth analyzing then their counter needs to be just as compelling. That’s why the dark knight works. Or no country for old men. It’s about a certain philosophy or ideology set in principle and understand that needs to be challenged by something just as strong. It’s why the dark knight and the killing joke were great comic books. Dark knight focuses on how Batman truly has to find a way to not break his principles while also being just and killing joke shows how the joker believes that chaos and insanity are inevitable and that all it takes is one bad day. Nolan most definitely read both of these and put them together to make his movie which really is a character study on the two character. Ryan Coogler did not show that same level of care. T’Challa is not really supposed to be as dry as this character is and really as a superhero has values that are to be strived. That said the source material for him to be honest can be one dimensional a good amount of time. It felt like since T’Challa didn’t really choose a philosophy to cling to rather being a Mary Sue and choosing his own he didn’t develop as a character. T’Challa father was way more interesting since as a king he made decisions he was not proud of and had to live with for the rest of his life. He never looked back and rather because of having to choose between his brother and country it effected him enough to make sure no one ever knew what Wakanda really was. He saw the outside as a negative influence on his brother that ultimately led to the betrayal. That level of complexity is undermined by how short the movie is and how the dialogue is very lackluster. It felt like they were trying to push a point through rather than it being cohesively accepted in its world.
I agree. I've watched 4-5 Marvel films from the last decade and even the "good" ones are super boring and forgettable. Black Panther was no exception, but Kilmonger was extremely interesting, and it felt like the film was more about him than about BP. BP is probably my favorite Marvel film because of Kilmonger, who, like you said, saved the film.
Danny Fratina I’m curious have you seen guardians? If so what were your thoughts?
Guardians was kind of fun but ultimately felt too empty. I can't even remember who the villain was. I don't remember the plot. The main actors were charming and their banter was fun, but not fun enough for me to go watch the 2nd film, which I didn't even know came out until months later.
It's weird, when I was a kid, if you told me that Marvel would have a ton of movies that would be big budget, all connected, etc etc, I would have died. But now, these movies are all just so... underwhelming.
Your editing doesn't get enough props. So have some props!
Whoa, look at these props! Thank you :P
I'm honestly just annoyed that the entire film wasn't about him.
BP is a Killmonger movie stuffed in half of it, and features a T'Challa cameo
Aside from some standard bad guy stuff, I found him to be a whole more likable and understandable character.
I like Killmonger, but I don't think he could carry a whole film on his own.
+The little red haired girl from across the street
I think he's more going for him than T'Challa.
PauLtus B I respectfully disagree on that. I think T'challa has a lot more room for character grown, as opposed to Erik who enters the story fully formed.
Okay, legit what's the song that starts up at 0:05? I dig on the beat hard, but I've not found it on its own.
Also this is a good video but that's par for the course and why I subscribed.
It’s the track “Killmonger” from the Black Panther score.
Another thing that was great about Killmonger links back to Civil War. T'Challa remarks that Colonel Zemo has been consumed by revenge and that he would not let it consume him. Killmonger is what could have happened if T'Challa went the other way on his decision. Because Erik Killmonger is a character that wants revenge on an entire race. It would have never been enough if Killmonger became King. What if T'Challa killed Zemo that day? Would he have moved on to the remainder of Hydra? SHIELD operations like Cap who were unwittingly working for Hydra at the time? Bucky? Where do you stop?
T'Challa recognized this while Killmonger didn't. But he still didn't have an ideology of his own to hold himself up with, which is why this movie was necessary. Fantastic work.
Both Killmonger and Joker were by far the best parts of Black Panther and the Dark Knight respectively .
ik its an old post but tell me whats so good about black panther
Killmonger is nowhere near the level of The Dark Knight's Joker
He exceeds joker.
Actually he is, if you are white I can understand!!!
you smoking crack. killmonger the best villain of all time
@@HB-ih9qp Lol, he ain't even in top 10. While Joker is one of the best villains of all time.
@@Chris-fj4wn He subverts Joker in every possible way.
To me, this movie was a giant message to black Americans. How would you feel if Wakanda was real?
More importantly, it illustrates to non-blacks the implications of being completely separated from your culture.
American blacks aren't even considered African anymore, we're treated like some in-between people as if we come from another planet.
Pathetically naive. What are you, like 10 years old?
Go. Away.
Its still talking........
The only thing wrong with the Black Panther movie was underusing the main antagonist.
I just noticed you background colour goes perfect with with this movies colour scheme.
And now I can't get Killmogers theme outta' my head.
Oh, great video, too!
Yeah! I loved the colors in this film...purple being my favorite color.
Imo Thanos, Loki, Killmonger, Vulture and Zemo are the best mcu villains while the rest are forgettable and bad.
Ultron is better than any of the DC villains in my opinion.
Killmonger is only empathetic to people in USA. Outside he is not relatable at all. Why is he mad? He was left behind in a first world country inside a black community, not a racist state like Alabama. He had all the chances in the world, he went to MIT and lived to see a black man being president of USA (Obama). Meanwhile in the scene at the beginning when Nakia is freeing the women, there is a boy who was forced to become a child soldier. HE SHOULD BE KILLMONGER. He has every right to be resentful against Wakanda for letting their neighbors suffer from war and poverty. Erick in USA had it easy, no reason to be so angry against Wakanda, not relatable at all. He was a crowd pleaser for the USA but not an internationally acclaimed villain.
An interesting perspective I hadn't considered-what people outside of the U.S. make of the political and cultural conflicts this explores. I would just say that for me, living in the US and having the intimate knowledge of the power disparity here, that Erik was a young boy from Oakland is a lot of what made it so powerful. It allows the film to touch on the problems we still have, as well as our dark history.
Dude, I don't think you know this but living in a wealthy nation doesn't mean you're rich. Killmonger specifically came from a poor and violent community, something explained like a billion times in the film. Living in an American ghetto is basically like living in a third world country, with corrupt and violent police, roving bands of armed criminals, and the constant threat of death. Please don't assume you know everything about a country from it's GDP, because on paper North Korea looks good too. Not trying to be mean, but it is annoying when people talk like they know everything about places they've never been to.
The little red haired girl from across the street You asume I have never been there, Now I wont assume you dont Know how is life in a third world country, but there is a reason why little kids from latin american countries risk their lives to cross the border to get a "better life" to find job and protection from murderous governments, from crime LORDS (meaning they have all the power, more than the state) not crime gangs. Please don't assume racist 1994 Oakland during the time of the L.A Riots and Rodney King beating compares to countries where a War Lord can massacre your village, rape your mother and force you to shoot your father just to turn you into a child soldier like that african kid with nakia rescued at the begginig of the film. And obviously those countries in Africa can benefit more from a Wakanda help center than Oakland USA. I challenge you to change my mind with a logic argument on how living on a first world country can be worst.
Genial amigo,con estos vídeos he aprendido mucho sobre cómo escribir,son de lo mejor, enserio
Podrías ver el guión de taxi driver?
Am I the only prefers Killmonger over Thanos in terms of a villain?
Absolutely not. Killmonger till this day is my favorite villain. Even over Thanos.
ya this movie was great, but can we please stop to appreciate the editing in this video... simply amazing!!
One thing that really impressed me about Killmonger is that he doesn't cheat. In Warrior Falls it would have been so easy to show a bit where he takes some unfair advantage to gain victory, but NOPE. He wins it, fair and square.
I think his 'plan' to start an uprising (against who exactly?) undermines the empathy established in his backstory completely. He's more concerned about genocidal revenge than providing aid to black people in need. And him claiming the throne despite no one wanting him as their king struck me as ridiculous. That and pretending T'Challa was dead for 45 minutes when they showed the Infinity War trailer before the movie...
"No one wanting him as their king"
Are you sure about that? *W'Kabi* The leader of the border tribe that was fighting Black Panther and his female body guards at the end of the movie, definitely wanted Killmonger in charge.
Also! No one really thought he was dead. Just like no one truly thought Batman's back was going to stay broken through the remainder of The Dark Knight Rises lol
Charles Baylor No one in the audience, no. But the characters seemed convinced, and it felt cheap.
And the border tribe guy was probably the most underdeveloped character in the whole movie. His motivations were muddled and undefined throughout, and who bought his 'relationship' with Okoye? Not me.
Bravo, Michael! Great analysis as usual! Your take on interesting antagonists is on spot. Knowing their motivation, understanding their back story gives the protagonist, as well as the story itself, a well-roundedness that is needed for a satisfying movie. Case-in-point: Breaking Bad. Being let in on the evolution of Walter White from protagonist to antagonist was brilliant, mind-blowing and breathtakingly. It created a masterpiece, just as in Black Panther. Well-done, Michael.
Well said Sandra! I can't wait to see your stories be reviewed on channels like this! :)
Mike Hunter - Thanks, MH! :)
IMO, I really love villains so much than heroes, and the thing that separates them from being a "hero" is their hatred. Philosophy is on point and makes much more sense and their will is unbreakable.
Rest in Peace, Chadwick.
New video, feelsgoodman clap
How to make a great villain:
Make him a Woke SJW
'cause we all know everyone's gonna love THAT.
The guy's objective is to literally wage war on the white population of the world using wakanda's resources because, according to him, Black people everywhere are oppressed. He's Social Justice incarnate.
Losing one's father IS tragic, but It sure as hell doesn't excuse genocide.
Micheal B Jordan was great but the movie as a whole was way overhyped and seemed like part of the generic marvel movies. Black Panther was a better character in civil war than his own movie, I think thats why Killmonger stole the show.
t'challa had one mode in civil war, vengeance. In this movie, you see him laugh, you see him cry, you see him angry, you see him at ease, you see him in love, you see him lose, you see him question himself but for some reason you miss all that and say him just showing one side to himself is a better character? Even at the end of civil war he retracts his claws and says he's done letting vengeance consume him because that anger almost made him kill the wrong person. Guess what side of killmonger we only see in this movie. Vengeance, you guys confuse a character being mad as better but say the character who listens and tries to think before he acts as uninteresting. But then again I guess why you aren't a writer involved with a multi-million dollar budget production.
Christopher Williams I am so with you man, it gets so annoying how so many people say that T’Challa was more interesting in Civil War than his own movie when in Civil War he was mostly hostile and only seeking vengeance. In Black Panther we get to see T’Challa’s true personality, which is a kind, calm, reserved, quite, and intelligent character who’s only flaws is that he is not politically savvy and he is a passive follower of his father’s traditional views; even with that towards the end dealing with everything concerning Killmonger he rejects those views and opens up to the world and finally making a bold decision as a king. I really like Black Panther a lot.
The Villain In Black Panther Is Killmonger
Michael grew up being an empathetic villain
No offense but this was really surface level analysis
It's a
Not crazy about this movie, I think alot of racial issues where shoved into this movie to chime with African American injustice's. Despite the fact that I am advocate for equality and coexisting, I think this movie just exasperated the racial tensions. The underlying tone was clearly aimed at a mentality of black supremacy. Since I am an advocate for equality, I did not like this vibe I got from the movie. I also dont think this villain could in any way shape or form be compared to Heath Ledger's Joker. I saw a one dimensional, angry little boy who had a blood right that gave him a "legitimate" rise to power, and he played it like a whinny child. Heath Ledger's Joker was complex, unpredictable, and incredibly intense. The performances are Light Years Apart....... But we all have our own opinions. This is is mine.......
Maybe I'm just an asshole but I didn't feel much for Killmonger. He came off as being a bit cliche and even annoying.
It is quite noticeable they tried to make him interesting and his motivations are clear, but ultimately, it felt ineffective. Even if he did have a direct impact on the protagonist and the story.
Perhaps it's just the way Michael B Jordan portrayed him. Nothing against the actor, I have liked him on other films (like Fruitvale Station), I just didn't like his portrayal of the character. His thuggish demeanor made him, I don't know, annoying to me. Mostly because it simply did not feel right for that role.
However, I could be wrong, I have only watched Black Panther once. Since I didn't really enjoy it the first time, I haven't felt he need to see it again. So, maybe, just maybe the character is more effective than the impression my first viewing left.