One thing you should know, I think, is that after all this, many fans took sides in this matter and many attacks were driven towards Tuomas and Tarja as well. The Poet and The Pendulum was Tuomas' way to deal with it and it's really dramatic. This song is based on the story The Pit and The Pendulum, by Edgar Allan Poe, where a person is strapped into an altar and a pendulum with a blade slowly goes down while swinging until it finally kills the man. This song is divided into 5 parts and, if I may, I would like to suggest you uso this video, which put the lyrics in a way you can read and does not interfere in any way with the reaction: th-cam.com/video/iEzZRMthhXU/w-d-xo.html The first part, White Lands of Empathica, comes from a book series of Stephen King, The Dark Tower, and is NOT Floor who's singing, but a boy soprano. The second part, Home, shows how Tuomas was attacked by everybody and his hardships dealing with it. You will probably notice the angst. The third part, The Pacific, is beautifully sang by Floor and her operatic voice at it's best... and the spoken text at the end... WOW... The fourth part, Dark Passion Play, shows Tuomas' execution at the song, putting him as the second robber to the right of Christ and shows is the most aggressive part of the music. The five and last part, Mother and Father, shows how his parents supported him after all this and he actually used his parent's words into this part. It's emotionally charged and really, really beautiful. Throughout all the song, Floor throws all the emotions towards us, showing again how good she is on stage... it brings tears to my eyes even to this day. I was a NW fan at the time and, yes, I suffered when Tarja left and the way she left too. I tried very, very hard to not take sides, although I felt a bit angry with Tuomas to deal with it the way he did, but all this is troubled waters under the bridge. I liked when Annete got to the band and LOVED when Floor stepped in, as I was already a fan of her since After Forever, and always thought that she would one day come to Nightwish... Well, waiting for your reaction. I'm sure the rest of the people will give you many things to think about. Thank you for being so open at your reactions! Bye bye from Brazil !!
Tarja is still married to Marcelo...they have a beautiful daughter. And she has an amazing and successful solo career. So, she crearly loved him and felt supported by him in every way.
Hi Debbie. The Poet and the Pendulum is not just about what you read, that song was Tuomas' way of releasing that demon. Backlash from the fanbase which dropped considerably, losing a very dear childhood friend, and much fingerpounting from the media, left him in such a state of depression that he entertained thoughts of suicide. After some time, he spoke with his mother and she gave him some very needed words of encouragement. Some of what was said he included in the song as well in Part 5- Mother and Father. Oh yeah, the song was written in 5 parts; 1: White Lands of Empathica 2: Home 3: The Pacific 4: Dark Passion Play and 5: Mother and Father Tuomas wrote this song and killed himself in it so he wouldn't have to in real life. Between parts 4 & 5, he kills himself and eventually you hear his heart stop beating. In Part 5 Floor, Emppu, Marko, and Kai are all sitting together as to show respects for the dead poet. You will eventually hear a boy say "For years I've been strapped onto this altar, now I only have 3 minutes and counting. I just wish the tide would catch me first, and give me a death I always longed for." Exactly 3 minutes after that, Tuomas kills himself. I don't know if you want to look for the lyric video, or read the lyrics prior to the reaction. I any case, look for the one in Wembley. Here's a link with lyrics just in case. th-cam.com/video/iEzZRMthhXU/w-d-xo.html Thank you so much for doing your homework on this song, but have tissues ready anyway. Stay safe and stay blessed. 😊❤️🤘🤘
@@nicod1361 There are also a few interviews where he stated that writing the song saved his life. No one really knows but Tuomas and perhaps his parents how close to the edge he was.
I didn't discover nightwish until 2018 so never got to know Tarja like I did with Floor but I think she is a great vocalist. From what I have learned this event was like a national disaster in Finland. National leaders even getting involved. Tuomas was overwhelmed by it all and combined with the loss of Tarja who was a life long friend from childhood found himself in a dark place where he was thinking the unthinkable. Ending it all. Instead he wrote and did it in song. There are amazing details about this song. Pay attention to the childs voice talk about having only 3 minutes and counting. Three minutes later the blade falls and Tuomas mimics his head being cut off. The child of course is himself as he has often refered to himself as the dead boy in a number of songs.
Marcelo, Tarja’s husband, is the one Tuomas and the band blamed for changes in Tarja and ultimately their split. He is from Argentina. In addition to this song, on this same album, are two more songs related to this breakup; Bye Bye Beautiful (directed at Tarja), and Master Passion Greed (pointed at Marcelo), perhaps their heaviest song ever, and never once performed live.
Debbie, you're going to be as well-prepared for this classic as anyone else that's ever reacted to it. TH-cam is littered with reactors that just jump in totally blind, thinking they'll snare a bunch of views for just watching a song; hoping it'll be a "banger", and scarcely hearing a word that is sung. I think you already know this is not just a "song." Between your research and the input from the Nightwish Army, you'll be where you need to be to appreciate the emptying of Tuomas's soul. The piece is ultimately one of so many feelings and emotions, culminating with the love and assurance only a mother can empart on her struggling son. I hope you will value the experience of the ride Tuomas is going to take you on. We'll be with you, Debbie.
You are about to watch and react to one of the greatest live performances by a band ever. The music and musicianship are sublime and the vocal power and emotion by both Floor and Marko is breathtaking. The song itself stands as a piece of art even if you didn’t know the backstory. The only recommends I would make is to study the lyrics and understand them prior to your reaction. Floor is amazing in this song. How many Uber successful bands can change their lead singer twice and end up more popular than ever!!! Also Tuomas said when Marko left the band that if Floor ever left the group it would definitely be the end of the band.- No pressure then😀
Tarja is happy solo and Nightwish is happy now with Floor, alls well that ends well. Tuomas was attacked by many fans over the open letter and firing Tarja, but it was a band decision and they all signed off on their letter. That is what fueled him to write The Poet and the Pendulum, his depression over it all, and he commits suicide on stage essentially. One year with communicating with the band, sorry I have to cancel the show but I want to go to the movies with friends, never once in 9 years joining in on the creation of a song or rehearsing the songs before the studio. I mean come on.
Tarja did a press conference in Finland after that like she said in the letter. It is in Finnish but it has subtitles. Tarja talks about this break up and her future plans. It is sad and heartbreaking to watch. At that moment she is still hurting as well as the guys are hurting too. Tarja also wrote two songs about this break up with Nightwish (she has never confirmed that the songs are about this, but the lyrics fit very well with this). I would like you to check them out. They are Enough (don't mix it up with her song Never Enough) and Diva. I think Diva is quite straight reference to the band calling her Diva. Enough was released around 2007 as part of her first album's, My Winter Storm, speciall release. Diva was released in her 4th studio album, Shadow Self, in 2016. Tarja has said that Diva was already written way earlier, but then she didn't feel confident enough to release it. This is a live performance of Diva from 2020. Absolutely amazing performance! So if you are going to listen Diva, please do this performance (You should propably look up the lyrics to this one too): th-cam.com/video/2bdJF4Ihgac/w-d-xo.html This is a studio versio of Enough: th-cam.com/video/4xGbtO9bw-A/w-d-xo.html I think the public letter was a bit unfair thing to do since Tarja herself had no clue that she was about to be fired. But my oppinion doesn't matter. All this is in the past. Anyways, we still don't know excatly what happened between them and maybe we shouldn't, it's between them and it is in the past. Thank you!😊
You should also listen to Master Passion Greed which is Directed directly towards Tarja’s husband. There is no live version but it is a very heavy and passionate song and compliments the Poet and the Pendulum on the same album. Marlo is the singer.
Hello Debbie! Yes, there are some inportant things you need to know because they're clearly an important part of The Poet and the Pendulum, perhaps even THE most important part of the song. It's about the aftermath of firing Tarja and both open letters. Understandably all of this had a huge impact on the fan base, resulting in a part of them blaming Tuomas personally for destroying the band (while in fact it was a unanimous decision by all band members). On top of that they got very bad press and it even came to it that Finland's prime minister had a say about it all. All of this, combined with the fear of losing his band, resulted in Tuomas going into a deep depression during which he even considered suicide. He talked about it with his friends and parents. Instead of doing it for real he wrote and composed The Poet and the Pendulum in which he expresses his feelings towards everyone he felt betrayed by and near the end commits suicide in the song.
There's a documentary from the End of an Era tour that's in six parts, called "A Day Before Tomorrow". As an empath you can feel the tension, the sorrow, and the anger that was directed towards Marcelo. It's hard viewing, but it does reveal a lot. You saw that some of the girls/women in the audience at the end of that concert were in tears. I corresponded with someone who had been at that concert and she confirmed that she knew something wasn't right, and the open letter confirmed to her just why emotions were running so high. Others have spoken of the backlash following the dismissal, which was largely directed towards Tuomas. He took Edgar Allen Poe's "The Pit and the Pendulum" as a metaphor for what he was going through. "The Poet and the Pendulum" is, I think, Tuomas's magnum opus.
I did post the following a few days ago on your Amaranth reaction. I just thought I’d post it again. I hope this helps a bit to understand the meaning of the song beyond the obvious events that led to it. Since you are preparing for The Poet and The Pendulum, I think it is important to learn about the timeline, the events and the players involved. I am not going to spoil too much, but in 2005 Tuomas and the rest of the band decided to fire Tarja, the original singer and co-founder of the band, due to personal issues. You will learn about that when you read the letters. Many say the song is about that, but it actually isn't. The Poet and The Pendulum is about the aftermath of that event. Nightwish fans loved Tarja. She was the frontwoman of the band, she was unique in the metal world for her singing style. Many thought the way how Tuomas handled it was very wrong, and most fans and media blamed him alone for that. In particular in Finland, where the fans and are very proud of Nightwish, Tuomas was roasted by fans and media. At the same time, Tuomas felt he had lost his muse, his friend and the person that defined Nightwish in a way, so he saw his entire musical work falling apart. He fell in a deep depression and was close to end his career in music and to end Nightwish as a band. Some say he was close to end his life, although he denied that in interviews. But he said he had to write that song and that album, so he could die in his music and didn't have to die in the real world. The Poet and The Pendulum is essentially a mirror of the phases of his depression, but at the same time a psychological catharsis that allowed him to move on. In a way it is one of the most important songs of Nightwish. Without this song we probably would not have this band and the wonderful music that came after 2005 anymore.
The relationship between Tarja and the other boys in the band began to deteriorate when Tarja was abused on stage in Mexico, none of them stopped playing to help her. Only Marcelo went to look for the man who was on top of him. For her part, Tarja wrote until my last breath, enough and diva
Right. There are always two sides of the coin. No one really knows in detail what was going on behind the scenes. But this was definitely a reason why they grew apart. You can't blame anyone, not Tuomas nor Tarja. Only thing I always found a bad decision was that Tuomas and the band decided to do this with an open letter. Another thing to be added: if you really want to understand Nightwish fully, you can't just listen to 95% to shows with Floor and just one or two songs with Tarja and maybe 1 other song with Anette. This is like disrespecting of what has been before Floor. Even if I love Floor, this is wrong, and only a few reactors understand this.
@@thomashoffmann3656 That's true because Tarja had already decided to leave the band but they convinced her to record one more album and she accepted and suddenly: boom!! the open letter. she felt that as a betrayal because it was not the correct way for so many years. Anyway, as you say, we don't know what happened behind. I think we will never know but each one took their own path and I really enjoy all of them, Tarja's career and Nightwish's career.
Hi Debbi, I have to be honest and say that although the research and meaning is important, I often feel that this robs a person of the pure musical enjoyment of listening to what I consider to be one of the best 3 songs written by Tuomas. It is so easy to get caught up in the emotional angst and forget about the beauty, power and vulnerability that this song evokes in the listener. There is no such thing as "a wrong way" to listen to music. With the work you have already done, you will understand some of the visual cues onstage, that is enough. I am sure, if you like the music, you will join the millions of us who listen to this song countless times, always appreciating something different in a deeper way. You are showing great respect to the music, the band and the fan base and that is more than we have the right to ask for, thank you.
Indeed this "pre-hyped" of dramatics around the track kills a Lot off from her "First time reacting to..." Now when Debbsie Webbsie, Whooppsie Doopsie has read approx. 137 'guidance to a song' comments kinda: "How To React, first time to The Poet and the Pendulum" her fresh income to it is pretty freakin long gone. No one Can't deny how awfully well she's prehanded prepared for the *First* experience to the piece. This has been a 'problem' numerous times before and it is often amuzingly unfortunate. Reactor(s) should jump in and react to this musical awesomeness by them selves and : A. Let the music do the talking B. Work own way onto the lyricism and then into composing ......In case they're willing... ---- DOGGÄMNED ------- OH!!! Cheers from Finland 🇫🇮 🥶, suckas (not the original commentator ✌️😋)
The Poet and the Pendulum was written after firing Tarja the original singer in 2005 . She was the face of Nightwish at the time, and Tuomas considered her a muse to many of the songs he had written at that point. They had also grown up in the same city and knew each other since early childhood. All the band members decided together to fire her for acting too much of a diva And her husband & Manager was stepping way outta bounds concerning the band business He always wanted more money , only big paying show but the band did it for the love of music and there fans . According to all the band members, Tarja was missing lots of rehearsals and would not even travel with the band anymore. Tuomas was painted as the devil by many fans, and went through a deep depression. . He tells you at the 7:00 min timestamp that he only has 3 min & counting and actually kills himself in the song at the 10:00 min time stamp . He said he killed himself in the song, as to kill the pain he was going through . To this day every time he plays it, it takes him back to those feelings, and shows on his face. In the last part, Mother and Father, words are said to him that his real mother and father said to him at that time of his deep depression. One part that touches me at the end when the guitarist Emppu and bassist Marko, the only other two left involved with firing Tarja (that were still active with the band)were standing with Tuomas at the end in solidarity and love., NOTE : the 1st two words are (The End) and the last two words are (The Beginning) representing the end of the 1st era of Nightwish and the beginning of the next era
It should be added, maybe, that the song has not been played in a long time and probably never will again. Tuomas and the band are over it, it just wouldn’t make sense anymore, especially now without Marko.
This is only one side of the story. Many people who knew her says she was not a diva and that her husband was protecting her. We don’t know for sure. The guys partied a lot and she could no longer handle it. They were horrible to publish that letter. I don’t say this to smear the band. I love them and they were all so young. But again, there are two sides to every story
@@vanessalore9942 Not necessarily horrible; keep in mind that according to the letter the band published (and keep in mind, it isn't just Tuomas saying it, every other member signed off on it) Tarja had already stated that she was going to go solo after their next album, and that she could leave the band with any moment's notice. If the band had just went along with that, they would be prolonging their suffering, similar to what happened during Fleetwood Mac's Rumors album. They wouldn't be able to stand being there with each other. And IIRC, in Marko's book at the time, he had stated something to the effect of that if Tarja isn't leaving, he is. Tuomas and the band couldn't deal with that after Sami leaving as well. So they decided to cut their losses instead of prolonging the suffering. Both sides were definitely young, and thankfully they are now over it. Tarja and Tuomas speak at least cordially for business affairs. Prime example: They needed Tarja's permission to re-release Once 3 years ago. Marko and Tarja are friends again. Floor and Tarja are friends, so this is all just water under the bridge.. Immortalized, but under the bridge.
This song is Tuomas' the most deepest but yet so beautiful, emotional creation. They will never sing it live again. At the end of the song Emppu and Marko rallied around Tuomas to support him. Tuomas ❤
The song they had just finished playing, the last song of the show, was Wish I Had An Angel. The split with Tarja was going to happen eventually. Tarja's wants and needs, and the bands wants and needs were going in 2 different directions. How they went about it, however, was far less than ideal. The letters give some insight, but those involved are the only ones who know the whole story, and they have all put this behind them. You didn't need to do any research to enjoy The Poet and the Pendulum musically. But, it helps if you want to try to understand the song meaning.
Hello The song "The Poet and the Pendulum" is a 13 Minute journey through the mind and turmoil of Tuomas Holopainen after the year 2005. It was in that year the band parted with their long-time singer Tarja Turunen and had a personal falling out with her. The pain of the separation was big on both sides, and shown in this song. There is guilt for what happened, there is the responsibility that the band and Holopainen had to show towards the fans,. It was the End of an Era for them, and reason for Holopainen being lost as described in these lyrics. We can only of course to a certain degree suppose how much of these are truly Holopainen's feelings, wishes and pains - but we do know that the lyrics of Nightwish have been up to then very personal. Other songs on the album also digest this separation and falling out of the members with Turunen. This is one of the interpretations and i know lots of fans do not agree, they just need to read the open letter that was given to Tarja by the whole band at her last concert with Nightwish, where they fired her. And the main reason that Tuomas went through a depression was that specially the Tarja fans where furious and showed that in the media and everyone was blaming Tuomas. (the fans spit on his grave). He felt the whole world was against him. However personal and "real" these thoughts are, I feel like this song definitely takes us not only on a journey with Holopainen but also into ourselves. The music underlines the emotional gravity of the song extremely well. And I believe a lot of people can actually relate to a sense of guilt and being overwhelmed that all they desired for is the safety of home and innocence. While being personal, the song can still ring true to it's listener. That's a quality Nighwish possesses in many, many more songs. The emotional journey is one we can all share and very few bands know how to put that journey into song and especially into sound as well as Nightwish does. The band remains through all it's shores and Oceans, one of my main favourites and I hold special place for the band in my musical heart. I hope you have enjoyed reading my analysis and share some of my thoughts. If you do have any comments, please feel free to let me know. And remember the beauty of interpretation is that it is subjective; we can see all and feel different things in the same song and continue to love it endlessly. Lyric analysis by Annika Hausen Greetings from the Netherlands
I have a Tarja/Tuomas signed album of Angels Fall First from 1997 after listening to a sample of their songs from a prog website that has sadly disappeared. Even though Nightwish have evolved into what it is today, I still have a piece in my heart for the original band and singer Tarja.
They knew the way Marcello handled things - there would have been allusions to problems, blame, and misdirection, so the open letter was to be clear why they split, that she was leaving anyway, their sadness & disappointment, and their wish for her to be happy. It backfired but was necessary & would have been worse if not public. She wanted to be solo and has done well. So all is good in the end.
This was a very intense period for the band. I admit that I had lost track of the band following this moment. I was always into them for the music, not the drama, so I kind of lost interest in them, although I still listened to their old albums on regular rotation. When they announced a new album with a new singer, I checked it out but it was so different from their past incarnation that it didn't hold my interest for long. I know that there are some great songs on that album, but I had moved on...at least until later on when I decided to revisit that album and Imaginaerum. I still longed for the operatic style of Tarja, but had renewed interest in their work with Anette, giving it a fair chance on it's own merits. Anyways, my interest waned again until Floor joined as I had heard her in After Forever and ReVamp so I was excited by what was to come. Well, on to the next video! Cheers!
Hi Debbie. The definitive version of PATP is the LIVE version that they did in Wembley Stadium in 2015 (published in 2016). It is head and shoulders above the studio version. Not only is Floors voice much better suited for this song, but also Floor´s empathic and expressive powers and stage presence make this version super special. Be sure to get this version for your reaction!
It looks like my family has filled you in on the circumstances of the song quite thoroughly. For those of us that were fans of the band at the time the whole situation hit us very hard.
The fact that Tarja's letter didn't focus in any of the sad events Nightwish's letter mentioned, means that they actually happened, at least in my eyes. I certainly believe that the open letter of the band wasn't the best way for this sad 'divorce', but we don't really know if they have other options and opportunities since the letter says that they don't hang out or rehears together anymore. In my heart as a fan, as a musician, as a music producer Tuomas was, is and will be the heart and the brain behind Nightwish. There were be not a single song without him and this band could never exist without him. The amount of hate that he got was so huge that he literally had suicide thoughts. Thank God he expressed that feelings in a song instead of doing something like that. I can't imagine how things would be if social media thrived back then as they are today. Almost 20 years after those incidents there are people that still write awful things about Tuomas and Nightwish. I've been hurt deeply in my life from toxic people and after all those years and my experience in life, Marcelo probably was one. I can't believe that Tarja was herself when all those incidents mentioned on the open letter took place. I'm happy that both sides found their way in music and in life. Maybe a huge show in the 30 years anniversary of the band with both Tarja and Floor on stage with the band would be the best happy end in all of this mess. Since Floor and Tarja are friends my hope is alive.
One thing I will add. This entire incident is split up into four different songs: Bye Bye Beautiful, which is Tuomas' goodbye letter to Tarja. The Poet and the Pendulum, which is Tuomas' response to the fans that all but eviscerated him over the fallout of this incident. Master Passion Greed, which is the band's letter to Tarja's husband/manager, Marcelo Cebuli, for whom the band blamed for most of the change in Tarja. I Stand Alone, which is Tarja's response back to the band and the fans. I believe that is the correct name of the song from her first solo album. Bye Bye Beautiful was played live only a couple of times, with Anette Olzon being the singer of Nightwish. Floor has stated that she will never sing this song, live, studio, private performance, or otherwise. She is good friends with Tarja. I personally do not know if there is any recording of this live; however, an official music video was made by the band. Master Passion Greed was never played live, and never will be played live. Tuomas stated that he is no longer that person, so this is only available as a studio track. It is Nightwish's heaviest song. I know nothing of I Stand Alone. So what we have is The Poet and the Pendulum. I do not believe it was played any other time after Wembley, nor will it be played again. If anything, after researching the letter, I would say to react to those songs in this order so you can understand the entire incident, especially after reading both letters. So the Poet and the Pendulum is
What a powerful moment!! Of course the fans at this moment had no idea of the truth. But it was still the last show of the tour. There was no story like “we will be back in the studio next summer….” When would Nightwish be back? The band knew there might not be a band, maybe they were done. Many bands don’t survive the change of the lead singer. Kudos to Annette for choosing to take the road. We got two fabulous albums out of it!!
This event was the beginning of the sequence of events that ultimately led to the term "Floorgasm" being invented. I think it was a column writer for one of the metal e-zines, but can't remember which one. Everyone uses it now, but the usage is somewhat incorrect relative to its original intended meaning. It really only applies (and CAN only apply) to the mass of original fans who saw the magical chemistry of NW + Tarja to be inseparable and were heartbroken. Newer listeners who only joined the fanbase after this watershed event experienced Annette as the original (to them) singer and, as such, cannot understand the emotional attachment embodied in the original Floorgasm because they didn't experience it. What new fans today call a Floorgasm is really just referring to what, medically, is called a frisson, that chill of goosebumps and flush of adrenaline one feels when struck by a particularly beautiful and technically challenging passage accomplished by a favored and respected singer. Floorgasm was entirely different and went way above and beyond a mere frisson. Here is what happened. Not meant to disparage Annette in any way for she is an excellent singer and a sweet person, and she did not deserve the nastiness and hatred that was directed at her by some rude fans. But the indisputable fact remains that, for the heartbroken masses of Tarja fans, Annette's style, capabilities, and stage command were so different from what the Tarja fans hungered for, that she was rejected, most would say unfairly, some would say deservedly. But whichever side one was on, it commenced a long, five year period of heartbroken Tarja fans still showing up for NW concerts and still cheering for their beloved band. But the magical chemistry was gone from the live shows, though not from the studio albums. And there was an accompanying undercurrent of melancholy and sadness seething just below the surface. Five years is a long time to endure this kind of repressed melancholy, and many fans took out their anger on poor Annette who, in my humble opinion, did not deserve what she got. Well, as history unfolded, the tension and unhappiness within the band once again began to build, tension of a different kind in Annette's case, but tension nonetheless. It came to a head in the middle of the Imaginaerum World Tour in 2012 where she was similarly dismissed under unpleasant circumstances just before the Denver, Colorado show. At the Denver venue, they were left without a singer and recruited help from the band that was opening for them on that tour by asking Elize Ryd and Alissa White Gluz to step in for a one-time effort to handle the singing of reduced setlist while reading the lyrics from printed sheets of paper. But that's a whole 'nother story! Cut to the Seattle, Washington show a few days later: They needed a more permanent solution to the missing singer problem, and that's where Floor came to the rescue. The long-suffering fans met her with trepidation as an unknown factor. Floor, herself, said in an interview that she too was scared. She used the words, "I was standing back stage absolutely shitting my pants!" After Annette's experience, she was afraid the fans might, figuratively speaking, throw rotten tomatoes at her. Plus now she would have, in addition to the Tarja fans, the Annette fans would hate her too! Well, they didn't. They fell in love with her! Now, cut to the Houston, Texas venue a few weeks later: At least I think it was Houston, but I may have the city misremembered. That show was the first time NW felt confident enough to re-include Ghost Love Score in the set list. Floor added her own signature ending for the very first time. GLS has always been one of the most beloved anthems from NW, but long after the point where Tarja was finished singing and exited stage left to let the guys finish the outro, Floor was still going. And oh boy did she GO!! It was surely a less intense experience for the Annette fans, but for the long-suffering, heartbroken Tarja fans, that epic ending indicated in an instant that the MAGIC WAS BACK in Nightwish and Floor was the goddess who brought it. The response of the fans at that moment was so incredible that the previously mentioned e-zine column writer described it as being akin to a spontaneous and simultaneous mass release of five years of pent up tension in an explosion of tears of joy like nothing he had ever seen before! He likened it to a you-know-what and coined the term "Floorgasm" to describe it. So the true Floorgasm was a one-time only historical event, never to be repeated. One had to first fall in love with the original Angel, Tarja, then be shattered by her angel wings being burnt to dust (lyrics line from "I Wish I Had An Angel"), then suffer five years of sadness and pain at the loss of the magic, then be shocked by the second singer's dismissal not knowing if the band was going to survive, and finally experiencing the one and only Houston Floorgasm or the GLS venues that followed it, provided they were your first time hearing Floor work her GLS magic! What we call Floorgasms today are mere frissons. OK, I'll stop babbling now, and, yes, I was an old Tarja fan who got to experience the true Floorgasm! Trust me, it is different. Very different! Cheers! 🤘😎🤘
Hi Debbie. Prior to writing this, I have gone through many of the contributions already written so I didn't duplicate what had already been said. I am proud to be a part of such a caring community, and all of what I was going to tell you has already been written. Tuomas positioned this song as the first track of 'Dark Passion Play' so that Nightwish fans would hear and experience this emotional epic first. Of course it was also the first time that fans would have heard Anette's voice. The first part of the second movement ii) The Pacific is sung by a choirboy on the album. In the live performance at Wembley, Floor sings that part herself which adds an incredibly vulberability to her performance. The undulating seascape behind her seems to capture the emotion perfectly, and I always tear-up at this point. I may be wrong, but I believe that this is the last time the band ever played this song. It is a fitting epitaph to retire the song after this incredible performance. Big love to you xx
I think it's important to know that there is also a cultural aspect to these letters, especially the first one, because to many people, especially to Americans it might come through as harsh and way too direct. This is a Nordic thing. Scandinavians and other Nordic people such as Finns are rather quiet and reclusive people. They mostly keep to themselves, talk very little and they are very much not good at chitchat, small talk - you can find lots of internet memes about this. In their mind I guess speech was invented to communicate and they use it as such. So when they do speak, they get to the point. It's not like they are rude, on the contrary, they are nice and considerate. But they will almost never beat around the bush, and that might come across as blunt to some people. If a Finn decides to be your friend, he or she will be a very true and honest friend. Loyal to the hilt but also a straight mirror that always shows you the truth. Ready to stand by your side whatever happens, but also to stand up to you when you're in the wrong and tell uncomfortable things to your face. In their mind part of love and respect is to speak the truth. When a Finn speaks big words he or she means it. You rarely hear them saying "I love you" for instance, even between lovers, couples you can't hear that often because they will only say it when they really, deeply mean it, they will never utter those words lightly or joke about it.
That is true. I lived in US for many years and for me the ', I love you' that was thrown to the left and right was completely unknown for me and something that took a long time to get adjust to, and that completely strangers talked to me like they had known me for years, that some would do here if they've known me for years. I really learned to love the Americans and they're openness towards everyone, that something I cherish and took with me when I came back to Finland.
Before doing the concert footage, familiarize your self with Edgar Allen Poe's short story "The Pit & The Pendulum". The title was only changed to "Poet..." The visuals in the concert reflect the story. When you do this reaction have tissues ready.
Hi Debbie, I think your good to go and check that Poet and the Pendelum song. 2015 Wembley(Make sure to find one with lyrics/subtitles) It has so many motions that your need to see what is been said in a song.
I don't think there's more (necessary) to know. Just be aware, that TPATP is about Tuomas dealing with what he had to do and the reaction he received. The feelings and thoughts concerning Tarja and Marcelo were put into the songs "Bye bye beautiful" (Tarja) and "Master passion greed" (Marcelo). It's only fair to say (from someone who already was a fan back then) that we as fans went crazy in our disbelief about what happened and especially the way it happened. Mistakes were made by everyone involved, no one was the only devil and no one was the only saint.
I'm glad you waited until you were in a safe space, emotionally, and your reaction, just to the poetic mastery, is one most of us share. Keep those Puffs handy. Find the peace Tuomas found.
It's great that you're doing your research before Poet and the Pendulum. For me as a viewer, it's always great when the reactors on this song know the history of Nightwish, Tarja and the 2005 situation. The history of Nightwish is very long and there is a lot of information about the band that is hard to cover in one comment. I'll just say that Tarja and Tuomas communicated through songs after the drama in 2005. And if you're going to do a reaction to Poet and The Pendulum, you could do a reaction to Tarja's songs, which are her view of the whole situation, songs like Enough, or Diva, I recommend getting the lyrics as well. Here's a live version of Diva's song from her last DVD (Tarja wrote this song as her reaction to being singled out for being a Diva in the letter. She now performs this song with exaggeration and humor), hope no one blocks the video until then th-cam.com/video/2bdJF4Ihgac/w-d-xo.html Here's her song, lyric version from Enough fans (lyrics are in the caption below the video), th-cam.com/video/XcfalSS0WVw/w-d-xo.html Tuomas also wrote Master Passion Greed, a song addressed to Marcelo and Bye, Bye Beautiful addressed to Tarja. The song Cadence last breath also references Tarja and she responded to this song with her own Until my last breath. And as you pointed out, the passion on the fans' faces at the end of the End of Era concert is directly proportional to the pain the fans felt the next day. Many of them left the group along with Tarja. Nightwish was never the same for me either. Now I'm glad that Tarja has her solo career, I actually like her a lot more now than when she was in Nightwish and I like her music more too. I just wish things had turned out differently between her and Nightwish, they caused each other a lot of pain. Tarja said in one interview that it was the second worst thing in her life after the death of her mother. I think how ironic that Tuomas tried to avoid speculation with an open letter and instead created one of the biggest dramas alive in the metal scene, and he didn't avoid speculation and rumors anyway. They should have settled these things in private without publicly humiliating Tarja. I mainly take all one-sided statements with caution, because even Tuomas's letter is a one-sided thing and no one knows what exactly happened in the band and what the dynamics of relations were there. But I think everyone has learned their lesson since then.
I was guest from nightwish on the Meraluna show in Germany and the Meanfidler show in Londen. I meet the band there but no Tarja.. at the Mera Luna Show i saw hou Marcello keep Tarja Apart from the other bandmembers and guests . Also in Londen i saw Marcello hold Tarja afar from the fans and even from the bandmembers.. i was not shocked when the band fired her.. shame it was musical a great combination.
The Poet and the Pendulum is, of course, primarily about Tuomas' turmoil in the aftermath of the Tarja situation. The title is also, though, a reference to Edgar Poe's "The Pit and the Pendulum" and the lyrics are interlaced with the themes/events from that.
Hi Debbie, again I am amazed by the way you do your preparation! It's the period after these 2 letters TPATP is dealing about. The whole lot of criticism Tuomas received and the crap that was thrown over him made him to write his musical suicide, so that he had not to do it in real life (thank god!). In periods of their deepest hardship writes create their most beautiful pieces. As did Tuomas. What a beautiful piece of art. It touches me every time I listen to it, even after hearing it so many times. In the early years of TPATP Tuomas regularly asked the techs to turn the vocals off in his in-ears as to not be overwhelmed by the emotion. You also will see the guys checking out with him to see if he's OK. In recent years he has said he is now over that, that it's been many years ago and he is not that same person anymore. As part of the preparation, perhaps check out the lyrics in advance (edit: ahh, you already did...) The song is a true masterpiece and Floor ( I presume you do the Wembley 2015 version) is a magnificent storyteller. Have some tissues within reach.
I think Tuomas, Marko, Jukka and Emmpu have thought about it carefully, regarding the letter ...Difficult to say anything about this, but all four of them agreed to do it this way…💌 ✨ HIGH HOPES - NIGHTWISH A tribute to Pink Floyd Nightwish performs the High Hopes song during a 2005 tour. The first time without Tarja. I can see why..... The Title? 🌈🍀🌻
What a caption on the back screens to end the show. Once I had a dream - Nightwish - and this is it! The opening line from the fist song "Dark Chest of Wonders". The last record with Tarja. The record is titled "Once", as in once upon a time or the original idea for a band. Tuomas thinking about the end of the dream of Nightwish, possibly. Also reflecting back to when he was sitting around that campfire and dreaming about a band and musical career. Once he had a dream. Was it about to end. It must have been very stressful to play that last show. How could you interact with Tarja knowing what was to come at shows end? Tarja married Marcelo in 2003 and separated from Nightwish by using him as her personal manager. This must have driven a wedge between herself and the other member of Nightwish. A divorce. That is exactly what it feels like. The singer is the face and voice of the band. Very difficult to decide to part ways with the singer. Especially one who is so beloved and unique in her vocal style. I think you are ready. Keep in mind the metaphoric and imagery style of Tuomas' poetry.
I think it's important to remember that there are 2 sides to all these things. I'm sure there are things that the guys in the band could have done differently as well as Tarja. I don't think the open letter was a great way of handling the situation, and they have expressed their regret at that in later years, but I guess we sometimes do rash things when placed in horrible situations. Tarja has gone on to have a good solo career and a lot of fences have been mended over the years as Tarja has sung with Marco at concerts and has mentioned they have all been in contact with each other in some way over the years. Her and Floor have always been friends as well, and have performed together on stage.
Debbie, a couple of things. I haven't seen it mentioned here but TPATP is written chronologically in reverse, you will hear a whispered "The End" at the actual start and "The Beginning" at the actual end. Secondly, you haven't done "Alpenglow" from Wembley as far as I can see, but this was the song immediately before TPATP, the final chorus with the line "Conquering the darkest places" has Floor go to Tuomas and sing that line directly at him. You can figure that out I'm sure. Best wishes from a bright but cold SW France. R.
Remember this too. It wasn’t just firing Tarja but the insane backlash and hate he got from the press and fans. In Finland Nightwish are basically the Beatles. The prime minister even gave him shade for it. But see that’s why I read the song as having a happy ending. The beginning, find your shore. He did, eventually he found Floor and became the best version itself.
In love with the divine TARJA'S vast diverse brilliant solo career !!!!!! Have never in my life seen a person happier than her !!!!! 💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘
Hi Debbie, this is truly the end of Tarja's Era and a sad day for me but, thanks God, now we have Floor. BTW at time something had been in the air for some time.
Yeah, that was a shock back then. That could be handled better, but... I have always been a fan of NW music it self, than being focused to a singer as much. Even singer has a huge inpact in whole thing. I loved NW with Tarja, I loved NW with Anette (studio version of that era, bc of Anette's total difference with singing style wasn't imo good for Tarja era songs live) Choice of Anette was (for me) a bit weird, but very understandable, total difference might be a key there. As said earlier, live with Anette wasn't that good so it was only 1 concert for me. Then came Floor. I was very excited and managed to "hold my horses" to August 2015, to see her live for the first time. That was IT for me. I thought then, as I do today, match made in heaven. All the old feelings was back and then some. So everything what happened before, made a sense. It had to be like that. Sounds weird, right? I miss Marko tho, but choose to be VERY curious to see if Jukka get's vocal... So sorry for this rambling, but it make sense in my mind 😂
Debbie; preparate para disfrutar de la mejor performance realizada alguna vez de una canción en un concierto de metal; UNA "PIEZA MAESTRA" DE LA MÚSICA LLEVADA A CABO POR NIGHTWISH PARA LA POSTERIDAD!!!😉🤘❤
Appreciating your Nightwish Journey, a band like no other. Seems every fan share a personal connection with them. If you haven't recorded a reaction to the Pit and the Pendulum, one suggestion - this is one definitely want to have 'on screen lyrics'. There are several versus that are important, but barely audible so good to have the lyrcis along with listening. Doing a great Job Debbie - always look forward to your comments and thoughts are for Nightwish.
"The poet and the pendulum" is from Anette's time. It was released on the album Dark Passion Play (2007), the group's sixth. According to Tuomas this song was the way he found to deal with the depression after Tarja's departure. The band received a lot of hatred from all over the world. They lost a lot of fans. I'm going to summarize the story for you to understand why people's reaction was so negative. Tarja's resignation was a very dramatic episode. The relationship between her and the band had been bad for some time, so at the end of 2004 she decided to tell the band that she would leave. The idea was to record one last album and go on a farewell tour. She wanted to announce her decision to the public and prepare fans for the vocalist change, however, Tuomas convinced her not to do so at the time. It turns out that, after that meeting, the band planned a public firing on the sly. They delivered a letter to Tarja at the end of the "End of an era" show and posted it on the band's website the next day. The band made several accusations against Tarja and her husband. It was a scandal. In response, Tarja wrote a letter and held a press conference to respond better to the group's accusations. Her husband also spoke. He answered more than 150 questions from fans around the world and posted the answers on the internet. Given the reports that were brought and other available records, including videos and documentaries, a large part of the fan base revolted against the band. Faced with criticism from different sides, Tuomas fell into a depression and wrote "The poet and the pendulum" as a way of dealing with the situation. Some say that Tuomas suffered from unrequited love for Tarja. This feeling would have been the fuel for the composition of some songs. The question of Tuomas' love for Tarja is actually an old theory of fans. This theory was built even before Tarja's dismissal, and is based on old interviews and on the lyrics that Tuomas used to write. The idea of the existence of unrequited love was strengthened when Marcelo himself (Tarja's husband) spoke about the subject in the responses he gave to fans. See these answers: "36) Many people say that everything this happened because he Tuomas felt something for the Tarja and this feeling was not corresponded. It was the impression that passed. This can be answered? Or not? Heluza Mercaus Viegas Brazil I promised that everything was going to be answered. To cut a long story short, in October 2004 I needed to ask Tuomas to come to talk to Tarja and me in our hotel room in the middle of the tour. Even though he knows Tarja many years before me, he never could achieve his goal. In this meeting I clearly told him that his chances to be with Tarja were gone. I needed to tell him that there was no reason to keep on trying any longer, since I married her. As usual he didn't speak much, but he said to me that nobody was going to be able to stop his love for Tarja. After this unhappy meeting, everything changed. The guy that until then said in interviews that, without Tarja, that would be the end of Nightwish, changed his message into: Nightwish is my band, my music, my lyrics, the scenery of my soul. Is up to you to check all interviews from the band before and after end of 2004 until today. Tarja never changed her thoughts about her position in the band. She has never mentioned that Nightwish was her band or that she was more important than the other band members. Nightwish lyrics are Tuomas' life diary, as it has been said. With this new information that I am sharing with you, please check once again some of them. We all can find amazing songs with beautiful lyrics full of poetry. Their meaning won't remain that uncertain any longer. 37) Was Tarja in any romance/love way with Tuomas (he seems jelouice to me). Mariela Todoroviè Slovenia Tarja never had any romance nor was ever in love with him. I have received many questions accusing Tuomas of being jealous, envious, bitter and of being in love. I have no interest in making any judgement about those things and people's feelings. Other people than Tuomas also told me how much they love Tarja. There are many different levels of love and I have no problems with any of them as long as reasonable limits are not exceeded. Is funny if you carefully check the cover of End of an Era (that Tarja didn't propose, but accepted). You will find what seems to be an angel (Tarja's nickname in the official forum of her web page) and a demon or god. Only these two characters dominate the scene. I couldn't find any other characters in the cover at all. They are standing facing away from each other. Between them there is turmoil and a strong light, whether striking into or coming out of a cracked heart. It is definitely not Tarja's heart. Her heart is very healthy and full of love, because she has always listened to it (instead of me); as Tuomas advised her to do in the open letter. The title of the scene is "Nightwish - End of an Era". You can make your own conclusions. I am merely describing a DVD cover 157) What were, in your opinion, the real motives for Tarja Turunen to be out of Nightwish? ¿Cuáles fueron, en tu opinión, los verdaderos motivos de la salida de Tarja Turunen de Nightwish? Marta Perez Spain I think we will never know the real motives. Motives rest in Tuomas, some close people and band members' hearts. Seems there has been at least very strong motives to kick out Tarja, specially the way they did it. Some of them might be the mentioned cultural differences that band members have in their minds and hearts with me, the non corresponded love from Tuomas to Tarja, Tarja's values that didn't match Tuomas and Tarja's maturity that didn't match Tuomas and the others, not compatible life styles between band members, different concept of friendship and responsibilities that comes with it, different approach to record business, the obvious problem to communicate within the band; just to name a few." The depression itself and the song "The poet and the pendulum" can, in theory, be read as a reflection of this love drama. Regardless of whether this theory about Tuomas is true or not, the fact is that bringing internal issues to the public was the worst choice. A lot of the band's past has been brought up and no one has come out unscathed. Because of the scandal, Tarja lost some fans and contracts for her solo career. On the other hand, the band also lost fans and had little-known events brought to a wider audience. For example, Tarja suffered an attempted sexual abuse in the middle of a concert in Guadalajara in 2000. At the time, the band continued playing as if nothing had happened, even after Tarja left the stage along with the criminal and the security guards. There are videos of the episode here on TH-cam. Later, after Tarja left, the band itself mentioned the event in its official biography. The way the band decided to fire Tarja and the facts of the past that were brought to public knowledge infuriated many fans. To get a sense of how big the fan base was in the past, look at the number of views of the first videos with Anette ("Bye, bye, beautiful" and "Amaranth"). These numbers are representative of the fan base situation at the end of Tarja's period and beginning of Anette. The first album with Anette was the band's first album ever released with TH-cam ever running. We were all curious to know who the new singer was and what she sounded like. Unfortunately Anette didn't please a large part of the original fan base, which also contributed to the band losing more fans. Anette and Floor helped to attract a different audience and reconfigure the fan base. Some old fans have returned with the entry of Floor. She is nothing new to us. For example, I've known her since her first band, After Forever. Here are some sources: Dismissal letter written by the band: nightwish.fandom.com/wiki/Open_Letter_to_Tarja_Turunen Tarja's press conference after the dismissal, in full: th-cam.com/video/ATDFinGZ8D8/w-d-xo.html Marcelo's detailed response to questions sended by Nightwish fans at the dismissal epoque: www.tuomasholopainen.fora.pl/wywiady-artykuly,29/odpowiedzi-marcelo-na-pytania-fanow-czerwiec-2006,455.html Letter written by Tarja: nightwish.fandom.com/wiki/Open_Letter_from_Tarja_Turunen A snippet from the book "Once Upon a Nightwish" detailing the abuse incident - fromwishestoeternity.tumblr.com/post/111177476493/alfaangel-i-just-put-together-some-facts-about/amp The video of the abuse incident: th-cam.com/video/3bj4h1807kY/w-d-xo.html
I only know Nightwish with Floor, that is enough for me. I understand and see the discussion about Tarja and Anette, but do not have any feelings with this discussion. What i do know and highly appreciate about Nightwish is that they evolve, Tuomas is a living musical genius and you can see his development, feelings and interesses evolve and so is the whole band. Of course I do not have the same link with every song, I do love their work and specially their performances. I try to feel the emotion Floor can convey so well. And they keep showing depths that make be come back to certain songs. The Poet and the Pendulum is most definitely one of their best songs and performances. Always goosebumps and a deep feeling of sorrow, but also hope somehow. Maybe Floor's siren...
Hiya. All I would suggest is that you watch the video that has the Movement titles and the on-screen lyrics so that you can pause and react between movements rather than during an actual movement. And play the video all the way out at the end, of course. Stay safe. All the best to you.
I've been enjoying watching your Nightwish reaction 😊 if I can please please please request that you check out Blind Guardian. They have been around since the 80s and are true bards. They tell stories through their songs about various mythological stories or newer stories from various books etc. I suggest checking out the song Nightfall from their album Nightfall on middle earth which is related to lord of the rings. I also suggest checking out and then there was silence which is about the oddessy and the Trojan war. Thanks!
The wardrobe changes where for tarja who had to change all the clothes she required and that she demanded nightwish pay for, this was a decision made by all the members marco had even said if they didn't get rid of her he would leave I've also heard the husband was taking money from the product t-shirts and things then after this happened he tried saying it was because tuomas was in love with tarja and jealous, I don't think I care much for the husband and fed tarja ego she became to important this is what I read into it because I was curious about what happened, I saw friends of all theirs outside of nightwish and they didn't have nice things to say about tarja and her husband all this is stuff you can find for yourself it's out there I only found out about nightwish a little over a year ago and after the first time I heard poet and the pendulum and read the comments I had to find out what all the fuss was about God bless
You should also - almost as a sidenote - listen and react to "Master Passion Greed". A song off of the album that followed Tarjas departure. The song - sung by Marco - is a very angry dig at Marcelo. It has, to my knowledge, never been performed live as Toumas do not want to revisit those feelings. But at the time it was a necessary song for them to make to clear the air and get it out there. It is arguably Nightwish most heavy and angry song and really stands out that way.
The breakup alone sparked the creation of several fantastic songs: Bye Bye Beautiful - farewell to Tarja Master Passion Greed - a "message" to Marcelo :) Poet and the Pendulum - a reaction to backlash from fans who blamed Tuomas for everything, even if the decision was unanimous (the prime minister of Finland also had things to say) It's stupid to demand a homework from a reactor while none of us had to do it, but then again, the letters does help put some light on what happened and NW history, which is interesting by itself.
hiya Debbie to my individual knowledge these letters divided nightwish fans for quite a while. Some say this is why then singer after Tarja wasn't well received (then there was some public discourse between the next singer when she left that didnt help) NOW im only stating from my personal opinion and my perceptions of that time. I discovered Nightwish with Tarja as front person and individually other than two songs. (AND NOT TAKING AWAY from her individual talent) Im more individually an Fan of Floor and i have always been an fan of the talent of Tuomas. (I dont mean to ramble on with this comment but im an very honest person in my feelings towards Nightwish and musicians in general) WHEN you hear and react to the song the Poet and the Pendulum you will discover the feelings that Tuomas had on the split and the destructive emotions it brought to him. still today he doesnt have the ear piece in when the song is apart of the concert performance list and it is extremely rarely performed (from what i have individually heard via the grapevine). Individually I really looking forward to listening/watching your individual reaction to the Poet and Pendulum (BTW you should get an discord channel for your subscribers and patrons for chats on musicians and music in general) HIYA and well wishes from (at the moment very snowy blizzardly conditions) of Southern Ontario Canada!! and stay well as always!
Think how much they disregarded themselves in that concert. Jukka played with a migraine, they felt terrible and yet they did one of their best concerts. Terribly sad and beautiful at the same time.
If you go back and watch old documentaries and old interviews, you’ll realize a lot of that letter doesn’t make sense. Rectors tend to listen to the new fanbase that doesn’t really know much about the band’s history. The old fanbase knows Toumas’s history, so we take everything he says with a grain of salt. The truth most likely lies somewhere in the middle. They all were at fault for the firing. It’s not so one sided.
Tuomas wrote Dead Boys Poem and said what it meant. Tarja sang those words but did she feel them? Marcelo did not like the US and Australia and so Tarja found reasons to dislike them too. WTF? Things changed for all concerned for the better. The what-ifs are endless. So glad that everyone had better things happen for them. Tarja's solo career took off and Nightwish got better and better. Maybe not the best way to part but it was done. There were reasons on all sides for parting ways and all are valid. The rumours were probably more damaging than the truth. Keep looking forwards, not backwards.
Did Tarja feel the song? You might want to read what Toumas thought about Tarja’s interpretations of his music. It amazes me when people that don’t know much about the bands history makes these comments.
@@damienmaynard8892 Marko said "the problem wasn't Tarja, it was her luggage [Marcelo]" so yes, Tarja's interpretations of the music had literally nothing to do with the band's decision. Also we know that Emppu, Marko and Tuomas all texted/tried to call her afterwards. You don't do that with someone you hate and are glad to be rid of.
Tomas compositions made Tarja and Nightwish stars, you might be greatful enough to atleast acgnolige his talent of the hole thing. Feels like there are facts in the bands letter, that are'nt meet at all in Tarja's response. Tarjas letter is more of defending her husband........💓??
It doesn't get any better at the press conference. She laments in tears how surprising it would have been for her. There were rumors about the separation long before that, because the break could no longer be overlooked.
I actually like the way Tarja handled it. This could have easily turned into a "he said, she said" if she had started pointing out everything the band did or said that made her want to leave in the first place, like the heavy drinking, the inappropriate sexual comments etc. I honestly appreciate that she chose to not make this personal in return and point fingers. I'm sure she could have because the way I've come to see it, both sides had their valid reasons for all the irritation and frustrations.
Yeah, one super issue is the fact that Tarja and Floor became friends in 2002 when After forever were the supporting act for the NW eurotour, and that friendship is still going on.....💕
@@karadenizin-kizi Tarja did exactly this outpointing. She has complained that they get the least money. But she also did the least because she only showed up for the dress rehearsal. When Tuomas recently presented the first demos during the tour, Floor recorded them and immediately made suggestions for their implementation. Tarja complained that the others smoked and drank too much and didn't pay attention to their voices. That's why she had to travel separately. Hannes met Floor drinking whiskey and smoking a cigar. Tarja was always just the hired opera diva. Floor is one of the metalheads. That's why the break with Tarja came about. Tarja wasn't part of the band anymore.
Not having watched your video yet, but their problem was Tarjas husband, he was the one who drew Tarja away from Tuomas. I remember those times very well, but we had no idea what was going on until the book of Nightwish was published. But the fans turned on Tuomas the way he never thought could be possible and that is what was most hard on him. He wrote this song as his own help to get through this, he never planned to record it, but he showed it to the other band members and they told him they have to record this. It is a masterpiece both musically and lyrically.
You are going to need a case of tissues for this one. I suggest the Floor live version from Wembley 2016 with HQ Audio and Lyrics. She gives an emotional and stellar performance! Also, note the 3 minute countdown in the lyrics, that is an actual timer to a final outcome.
While I recognize that Tuomas is a superior composer, I think the way the Tarja firing was handled, no comment on whether it was necessary, show his character flaws. The song Poet and the Pendulum strikes me as self pitying for a situation he caused. He chose to handle it badly.
@Kotikunnas Look, you don't seem to get it, I don't even care that Tarja was fired, I am a consumer of the music, internal band politics is of no interest to me. The firing was done with no class and that reflects on Tuomas, but even then I don't care that much. But to whine because some people didn't like your decision and pull the "I'm just going to end myself" routine is immature and weak. He should be a man and take responsibility for his actions. If he truly believed it was in the best interest of the band to let her go, be a man and take accountability for doing so. As far as the whole Marcello thing, that is deeper than most will go.
One moment in Tarja's letter perfectly shows how cunning and hypocritical she can be: She is "outraged" that Tuomas mentions Marcelo, her husband, in the letter and it looks too personal. In fact, what Tuomas did not mention in his letter is that Tarja made Marcelo her personal manager and he was not just her husband, but an authorized representative on her behalf involved in all the activities of Nightwish, with his very impudent and ultimatum approach to business. Most fans didn't know about it at the time, and therefore some even thought that it was a kind of "love triangle" or "unrequited love". But later an authorized biography of Nightwish was published where they and other people from the music business spoke in detail about Marcelo's destructive activities in the band. Getting rid of Marcelo was no less a factor in the decision to fire Tarja than her own behavior. Tarja of course understood this when she wrote her letter, playing the image of an "insulted wife" in front of the fans.
"One moment in Tarja's letter perfectly shows how cunning and hypocritical she can be: She is "outraged" that Tuomas mentions Marcelo, her husband, " Tarja told Nightwish WELL BEFOREHAND that she was going to leave Nightwish after the next record.They agreed to that,BUT THEN after things got bad Nightwish strung her along FOR MONTHS making her do the shows all the while knowing they were going to backstab her.In Tarja's press conference she seemed more sad about all of the people that Nightwish labeled in the letter, not just Marcelo.And who let Marcelo in? Nightwish did it themselves, so the band screwed things up more times that once.They asked him to take care of Tarja after "the incident" instead of taking care of it themselves.Such as stopping the show or doing something else. Marcelo was a stranger from the audience at that moment. Do you think they could pull that shit off nowadays? Hell no. So Marcelo was Tarja's manager and husband.Maybe she felt she needed a partner and somebody on her side at the time when Nightwish was a basically a slave drive and a party buss. Ofcourse it all was insulting to tarja.To this day she's no diva and Tuomas admits that the things should have handled much better but has forgiven himself and others bécause of the state that they were in back then.This he said in fairly recent interview. Tarja never understood that they would call her a diva because she really wasn't and isn't. Marcelo had no business getting involved in a Nightwish's business but he was looking after his wife and by looking at Tarja's career today and personal life.He is still with her after all these years. He must be doing something right. It was Tarja's thing to put her foot down with Marcelo and stop him from getting involved but she didn't. Maybe because of the reasons I mentioned above. Back then: Nightwish and Tarja lacked in communication skills. Tarja said that they didn't talk.Apparently Nightwish had a shitty management too who didn't take care of things. Maybe Tarja matured more quickly than the rest of the band because nowadays Nightwish does what Tarja wanted already back then: Bigger venues, less shows,more off time between the shows and everyone has other projects besides Nightwish. I guess one could say Tarja was ahead of things back then. Nightwish is by all means no innocent in this. They did Tarja dirty no matter how they were allowed to do it. They thought they were smart with the open letter, they brought to shit show against them themselves by airing the dirty laundry.
@@jaanahedemaki6993 Stop lying and distorting the facts in a pleasant way for you. You and I have already discussed all this. There is an official biographical book where everything is written in detail from the words of not only Tuomas, but also the rest of the band members, managers and other people from the music business who witnessed all this. Neither Tarja nor her husband have objected to anything stated in the book in any way over the years. And Tuomas never apologized for anything related to Tarja, because there was nothing to apologize for.
Marcelo is husband and also he became the Manager of Tarja within Nightwish. He started to claim, that Tarja is the biggest Star in Nightwish and that she should be compensated monetary the biggest and also whispered things in Tarja's ear to make Tarja start to behave like a Diva in a Band, which never works.. Marcelo started turn Tarja away from the band to her own benefits only - more money to Tarja means of course more money to him, hence the motive..
And look also Tuomas had no choice. Metal bands tour, big venues and small. They played the three legs of the Dark passion play tour in the US, and two in South America. Tarja thought she was too big to be on a bus doing meet and greets. And showering at venues and truck stops. It’s not glamorous at all unless your at Metallica level of success.
It wasn't just Tarja though, I'll have to paraphrase but Emppu said in the Nightwish biography that he also didn't like having to meet the fans all sweaty because their own management (Ewo &Co) once again forgot to make sure the venues had showers and the only thing you could rely on was that there was always booze at hand. He also said that with Cabuli, if he said he'd get something done, he always kept that promise. So I think most of their in-band problems were caused by mismanagement / 2 managements.
I think that if you check this reaction you will have a lot more information about the song and how hard this song is still for Tuomas to perform: th-cam.com/video/JqSjh8tCR0s/w-d-xo.html
Hi Debbie, What I can never understand is the reaction of the Tarja fans. It is obvious from the open letter(that they all had access to) that Tarja’s behaviour brought about her own downfall. Her own letter didn’t address the fact that she intended to leave the band anyway and the tone of it tried to make her out to be a victim. Some Tarja fans can’t seem to let go and are very jealous of the success and wider recognition that Floor’s more versatile vocals have brought them. I have had some real nasty replies from some of my comments from Tarja fans. I have never been disrespectful to Tarja and have even said she was a trailblazer in the genre. But, just by praising Floor I unleashed a torrent of abuse from Tarja trolls. Anyway, things worked out for the best because Nightwish are a far better band today than they have ever been.
@@PetraPola I don’t think that Tuomas would lie about Tarja telling him that the next album would be her last. I don’t think he would lie about her not travelling with the band and not rehearsing with the band. All of these things meant that she was not committed to the band. It was obviously hard for them but the whole band decided that she needed to go. I can’t see any reason other that Tarja’s own actions leading to her dismissal.
Mostly I trust what Marko Hietala has been telling. He - generally speaking - has always been more straightforward than e.g. Tuomas Holopainen. So, yes, Tarja had told to the guys that she will record only one more album and no gigs... I think that means clearly: good-bye.
The history is not necessary to enjoy this song. This is not aimed at you hon. The fans are very insistent to reactors that it is. I cant imagine how all of the parties feel about of it being dredged up constantly. Plus, the Tarja and sometimes Tuomas bashing is alive and well in the comment sections. This song is another Tuomas masterpiece and can be treated and interpreted on many levels. Just enjoy!
Debbie, For this song, please try and stay focused on the meaning of this song from Tuomas perspective, because that's what it's about. I'm pretty sure you're going to be able to imagine and feel the despair that led to Tuomas writing a song that he literally kills himself in. I'm 100% sure you're going to get this one, if you relate this song to what you've been through in life. Without going into detail, publicly, I've already told you that this song helped save my life when I was at my lowest. I truly believe that No other vocalist other than Floor, can convey the feeling and the emotion of Tuomas, the song writer.
Kleenex. Lots of them. I think the open letters explain everything you need to know. The only thing I would say is floors version live is the best. I love Annette just not for this song, although it was written for her to sing I just enjoy floors more.
🇬🇧 Norfolk reports for duty , when you play-the poet l love how the band members look out for Tuomas and the riff Marco plays in his solo part without looking is mind blowing! Masterpiece of all masterpieces 😊
One thing you should know, I think, is that after all this, many fans took sides in this matter and many attacks were driven towards Tuomas and Tarja as well. The Poet and The Pendulum was Tuomas' way to deal with it and it's really dramatic.
This song is based on the story The Pit and The Pendulum, by Edgar Allan Poe, where a person is strapped into an altar and a pendulum with a blade slowly goes down while swinging until it finally kills the man.
This song is divided into 5 parts and, if I may, I would like to suggest you uso this video, which put the lyrics in a way you can read and does not interfere in any way with the reaction: th-cam.com/video/iEzZRMthhXU/w-d-xo.html
The first part, White Lands of Empathica, comes from a book series of Stephen King, The Dark Tower, and is NOT Floor who's singing, but a boy soprano.
The second part, Home, shows how Tuomas was attacked by everybody and his hardships dealing with it. You will probably notice the angst.
The third part, The Pacific, is beautifully sang by Floor and her operatic voice at it's best... and the spoken text at the end... WOW...
The fourth part, Dark Passion Play, shows Tuomas' execution at the song, putting him as the second robber to the right of Christ and shows is the most aggressive part of the music.
The five and last part, Mother and Father, shows how his parents supported him after all this and he actually used his parent's words into this part. It's emotionally charged and really, really beautiful.
Throughout all the song, Floor throws all the emotions towards us, showing again how good she is on stage... it brings tears to my eyes even to this day.
I was a NW fan at the time and, yes, I suffered when Tarja left and the way she left too. I tried very, very hard to not take sides, although I felt a bit angry with Tuomas to deal with it the way he did, but all this is troubled waters under the bridge. I liked when Annete got to the band and LOVED when Floor stepped in, as I was already a fan of her since After Forever, and always thought that she would one day come to Nightwish...
Well, waiting for your reaction. I'm sure the rest of the people will give you many things to think about. Thank you for being so open at your reactions!
Bye bye from Brazil !!
Tarja is still married to Marcelo...they have a beautiful daughter. And she has an amazing and successful solo career. So, she crearly loved him and felt supported by him in every way.
Hi Debbie.
The Poet and the Pendulum is not just about what you read, that song was Tuomas' way of releasing that demon.
Backlash from the fanbase which dropped considerably, losing a very dear childhood friend, and much fingerpounting from the media, left him in such a state of depression that he entertained thoughts of suicide.
After some time, he spoke with his mother and she gave him some very needed words of encouragement. Some of what was said he included in the song as well in Part 5- Mother and Father.
Oh yeah, the song was written in 5 parts;
1: White Lands of Empathica
2: Home
3: The Pacific
4: Dark Passion Play
and 5: Mother and Father
Tuomas wrote this song and killed himself in it so he wouldn't have to in real life.
Between parts 4 & 5, he kills himself and eventually you hear his heart stop beating.
In Part 5
Floor, Emppu, Marko, and Kai are all sitting together as to show respects for the dead poet.
You will eventually hear a boy say "For years I've been strapped onto this altar, now I only have 3 minutes and counting. I just wish the tide would catch me first, and give me a death I always longed for."
Exactly 3 minutes after that, Tuomas kills himself.
I don't know if you want to look for the lyric video, or read the lyrics prior to the reaction. I any case, look for the one in Wembley.
Here's a link with lyrics just in case.
th-cam.com/video/iEzZRMthhXU/w-d-xo.html
Thank you so much for doing your homework on this song, but have tissues ready anyway.
Stay safe and stay blessed.
😊❤️🤘🤘
actually in interviews Tuomas explains that he did not really entertain the thought of suicide
@@nicod1361 There are also a few interviews where he stated that writing the song saved his life. No one really knows but Tuomas and perhaps his parents how close to the edge he was.
I didn't discover nightwish until 2018 so never got to know Tarja like I did with Floor but I think she is a great vocalist. From what I have learned this event was like a national disaster in Finland. National leaders even getting involved. Tuomas was overwhelmed by it all and combined with the loss of Tarja who was a life long friend from childhood found himself in a dark place where he was thinking the unthinkable. Ending it all. Instead he wrote and did it in song. There are amazing details about this song. Pay attention to the childs voice talk about having only 3 minutes and counting. Three minutes later the blade falls and Tuomas mimics his head being cut off. The child of course is himself as he has often refered to himself as the dead boy in a number of songs.
Marcelo, Tarja’s husband, is the one Tuomas and the band blamed for changes in Tarja and ultimately their split. He is from Argentina. In addition to this song, on this same album, are two more songs related to this breakup; Bye Bye Beautiful (directed at Tarja), and Master Passion Greed (pointed at Marcelo), perhaps their heaviest song ever, and never once performed live.
Debbie, you're going to be as well-prepared for this classic as anyone else that's ever reacted to it. TH-cam is littered with reactors that just jump in totally blind, thinking they'll snare a bunch of views for just watching a song; hoping it'll be a "banger", and scarcely hearing a word that is sung. I think you already know this is not just a "song." Between your research and the input from the Nightwish Army, you'll be where you need to be to appreciate the emptying of Tuomas's soul. The piece is ultimately one of so many feelings and emotions, culminating with the love and assurance only a mother can empart on her struggling son. I hope you will value the experience of the ride Tuomas is going to take you on. We'll be with you, Debbie.
You are about to watch and react to one of the greatest live performances by a band ever. The music and musicianship are sublime and the vocal power and emotion by both Floor and Marko is breathtaking. The song itself stands as a piece of art even if you didn’t know the backstory. The only recommends I would make is to study the lyrics and understand them prior to your reaction.
Floor is amazing in this song. How many Uber successful bands can change their lead singer twice and end up more popular than ever!!!
Also Tuomas said when Marko left the band that if Floor ever left the group it would definitely be the end of the band.- No pressure then😀
Tarja is happy solo and Nightwish is happy now with Floor, alls well that ends well. Tuomas was attacked by many fans over the open letter and firing Tarja, but it was a band decision and they all signed off on their letter. That is what fueled him to write The Poet and the Pendulum, his depression over it all, and he commits suicide on stage essentially. One year with communicating with the band, sorry I have to cancel the show but I want to go to the movies with friends, never once in 9 years joining in on the creation of a song or rehearsing the songs before the studio. I mean come on.
Tarja did a press conference in Finland after that like she said in the letter. It is in Finnish but it has subtitles. Tarja talks about this break up and her future plans. It is sad and heartbreaking to watch. At that moment she is still hurting as well as the guys are hurting too.
Tarja also wrote two songs about this break up with Nightwish (she has never confirmed that the songs are about this, but the lyrics fit very well with this). I would like you to check them out. They are Enough (don't mix it up with her song Never Enough) and Diva. I think Diva is quite straight reference to the band calling her Diva. Enough was released around 2007 as part of her first album's, My Winter Storm, speciall release. Diva was released in her 4th studio album, Shadow Self, in 2016. Tarja has said that Diva was already written way earlier, but then she didn't feel confident enough to release it.
This is a live performance of Diva from 2020. Absolutely amazing performance! So if you are going to listen Diva, please do this performance (You should propably look up the lyrics to this one too):
th-cam.com/video/2bdJF4Ihgac/w-d-xo.html
This is a studio versio of Enough:
th-cam.com/video/4xGbtO9bw-A/w-d-xo.html
I think the public letter was a bit unfair thing to do since Tarja herself had no clue that she was about to be fired. But my oppinion doesn't matter. All this is in the past. Anyways, we still don't know excatly what happened between them and maybe we shouldn't, it's between them and it is in the past.
Thank you!😊
Thank you so much. I saved both of the links. I appreciate all this information.
You should also listen to Master Passion Greed which is Directed directly towards Tarja’s husband. There is no live version but it is a very heavy and passionate song and compliments the Poet and the Pendulum on the same album. Marlo is the singer.
Hello Debbie! Yes, there are some inportant things you need to know because they're clearly an important part of The Poet and the Pendulum, perhaps even THE most important part of the song.
It's about the aftermath of firing Tarja and both open letters. Understandably all of this had a huge impact on the fan base, resulting in a part of them blaming Tuomas personally for destroying the band (while in fact it was a unanimous decision by all band members). On top of that they got very bad press and it even came to it that Finland's prime minister had a say about it all.
All of this, combined with the fear of losing his band, resulted in Tuomas going into a deep depression during which he even considered suicide. He talked about it with his friends and parents.
Instead of doing it for real he wrote and composed The Poet and the Pendulum in which he expresses his feelings towards everyone he felt betrayed by and near the end commits suicide in the song.
Debbie, this is exactly what you need to know
There's a documentary from the End of an Era tour that's in six parts, called "A Day Before Tomorrow". As an empath you can feel the tension, the sorrow, and the anger that was directed towards Marcelo. It's hard viewing, but it does reveal a lot. You saw that some of the girls/women in the audience at the end of that concert were in tears. I corresponded with someone who had been at that concert and she confirmed that she knew something wasn't right, and the open letter confirmed to her just why emotions were running so high.
Others have spoken of the backlash following the dismissal, which was largely directed towards Tuomas. He took Edgar Allen Poe's "The Pit and the Pendulum" as a metaphor for what he was going through. "The Poet and the Pendulum" is, I think, Tuomas's magnum opus.
I did post the following a few days ago on your Amaranth reaction. I just thought I’d post it again. I hope this helps a bit to understand the meaning of the song beyond the obvious events that led to it.
Since you are preparing for The Poet and The Pendulum, I think it is important to learn about the timeline, the events and the players involved. I am not going to spoil too much, but in 2005 Tuomas and the rest of the band decided to fire Tarja, the original singer and co-founder of the band, due to personal issues. You will learn about that when you read the letters. Many say the song is about that, but it actually isn't.
The Poet and The Pendulum is about the aftermath of that event. Nightwish fans loved Tarja. She was the frontwoman of the band, she was unique in the metal world for her singing style. Many thought the way how Tuomas handled it was very wrong, and most fans and media blamed him alone for that. In particular in Finland, where the fans and are very proud of Nightwish, Tuomas was roasted by fans and media. At the same time, Tuomas felt he had lost his muse, his friend and the person that defined Nightwish in a way, so he saw his entire musical work falling apart. He fell in a deep depression and was close to end his career in music and to end Nightwish as a band. Some say he was close to end his life, although he denied that in interviews. But he said he had to write that song and that album, so he could die in his music and didn't have to die in the real world.
The Poet and The Pendulum is essentially a mirror of the phases of his depression, but at the same time a psychological catharsis that allowed him to move on. In a way it is one of the most important songs of Nightwish. Without this song we probably would not have this band and the wonderful music that came after 2005 anymore.
The relationship between Tarja and the other boys in the band began to deteriorate when Tarja was abused on stage in Mexico, none of them stopped playing to help her. Only Marcelo went to look for the man who was on top of him. For her part, Tarja wrote until my last breath, enough and diva
Right. There are always two sides of the coin. No one really knows in detail what was going on behind the scenes. But this was definitely a reason why they grew apart. You can't blame anyone, not Tuomas nor Tarja. Only thing I always found a bad decision was that Tuomas and the band decided to do this with an open letter. Another thing to be added: if you really want to understand Nightwish fully, you can't just listen to 95% to shows with Floor and just one or two songs with Tarja and maybe 1 other song with Anette. This is like disrespecting of what has been before Floor. Even if I love Floor, this is wrong, and only a few reactors understand this.
@@thomashoffmann3656 That's true because Tarja had already decided to leave the band but they convinced her to record one more album and she accepted and suddenly: boom!! the open letter. she felt that as a betrayal because it was not the correct way for so many years. Anyway, as you say, we don't know what happened behind. I think we will never know but each one took their own path and I really enjoy all of them, Tarja's career and Nightwish's career.
Hi Debbi, I have to be honest and say that although the research and meaning is important, I often feel that this robs a person of the pure musical enjoyment of listening to what I consider to be one of the best 3 songs written by Tuomas. It is so easy to get caught up in the emotional angst and forget about the beauty, power and vulnerability that this song evokes in the listener. There is no such thing as "a wrong way" to listen to music. With the work you have already done, you will understand some of the visual cues onstage, that is enough. I am sure, if you like the music, you will join the millions of us who listen to this song countless times, always appreciating something different in a deeper way. You are showing great respect to the music, the band and the fan base and that is more than we have the right to ask for, thank you.
Indeed this "pre-hyped" of dramatics around the track kills a Lot off from her "First time reacting to..."
Now when Debbsie Webbsie, Whooppsie Doopsie has read approx. 137 'guidance to a song' comments kinda: "How To React, first time to The Poet and the Pendulum" her fresh income to it is pretty freakin long gone.
No one Can't deny how awfully well she's prehanded prepared for the *First* experience to the piece.
This has been a 'problem' numerous times before and it is often amuzingly unfortunate.
Reactor(s) should jump in and react to this musical awesomeness by them selves and :
A. Let the music do the talking
B. Work own way onto the lyricism and then into composing
......In case they're willing...
---- DOGGÄMNED -------
OH!!! Cheers from Finland 🇫🇮 🥶, suckas
(not the original commentator ✌️😋)
I cried better to get your tissue for this one so powerful and emotional Thomas is special love this one
So looking forward to the reaction! But you can never be totally ready for it! It will get you at least it gets me all the time!
soooo excited for poet and the pendulum...
The Poet and the Pendulum was written after firing Tarja the original singer in 2005 . She was the face of Nightwish at the time, and Tuomas considered her a muse to many of the songs he had written at that point. They had also grown up in the same city and knew each other since early childhood. All the band members decided together to fire her for acting too much of a diva And her husband & Manager was stepping way outta bounds concerning the band business He always wanted more money , only big paying show but the band did it for the love of music and there fans . According to all the band members, Tarja was missing lots of rehearsals and would not even travel with the band anymore. Tuomas was painted as the devil by many fans, and went through a deep depression. . He tells you at the 7:00 min timestamp that he only has 3 min & counting and actually kills himself in the song at the 10:00 min time stamp . He said he killed himself in the song, as to kill the pain he was going through . To this day every time he plays it, it takes him back to those feelings, and shows on his face. In the last part, Mother and Father, words are said to him that his real mother and father said to him at that time of his deep depression. One part that touches me at the end when the guitarist Emppu and bassist Marko, the only other two left involved with firing Tarja (that were still active with the band)were standing with Tuomas at the end in solidarity and love., NOTE : the 1st two words are (The End) and the last two words are (The Beginning) representing the end of the 1st era of Nightwish and the beginning of the next era
It should be added, maybe, that the song has not been played in a long time and probably never will again. Tuomas and the band are over it, it just wouldn’t make sense anymore, especially now without Marko.
This is only one side of the story. Many people who knew her says she was not a diva and that her husband was protecting her. We don’t know for sure. The guys partied a lot and she could no longer handle it. They were horrible to publish that letter. I don’t say this to smear the band. I love them and they were all so young. But again, there are two sides to every story
@@vanessalore9942 very well said Vanessa.
@@vanessalore9942 Not necessarily horrible; keep in mind that according to the letter the band published (and keep in mind, it isn't just Tuomas saying it, every other member signed off on it) Tarja had already stated that she was going to go solo after their next album, and that she could leave the band with any moment's notice. If the band had just went along with that, they would be prolonging their suffering, similar to what happened during Fleetwood Mac's Rumors album. They wouldn't be able to stand being there with each other. And IIRC, in Marko's book at the time, he had stated something to the effect of that if Tarja isn't leaving, he is. Tuomas and the band couldn't deal with that after Sami leaving as well. So they decided to cut their losses instead of prolonging the suffering.
Both sides were definitely young, and thankfully they are now over it. Tarja and Tuomas speak at least cordially for business affairs. Prime example: They needed Tarja's permission to re-release Once 3 years ago. Marko and Tarja are friends again. Floor and Tarja are friends, so this is all just water under the bridge.. Immortalized, but under the bridge.
This song is Tuomas' the most deepest but yet so beautiful, emotional creation. They will never sing it live again. At the end of the song Emppu and Marko rallied around Tuomas to support him. Tuomas ❤
The song they had just finished playing, the last song of the show, was Wish I Had An Angel.
The split with Tarja was going to happen eventually. Tarja's wants and needs, and the bands wants and needs were going in 2 different directions. How they went about it, however, was far less than ideal. The letters give some insight, but those involved are the only ones who know the whole story, and they have all put this behind them.
You didn't need to do any research to enjoy The Poet and the Pendulum musically. But, it helps if you want to try to understand the song meaning.
Hello
The song "The Poet and the Pendulum" is a 13 Minute journey through the mind and turmoil of Tuomas Holopainen after the year 2005. It was in that year the band parted with their long-time singer Tarja Turunen and had a personal falling out with her. The pain of the separation was big on both sides, and shown in this song. There is guilt for what happened, there is the responsibility that the band and Holopainen had to show towards the fans,. It was the End of an Era for them, and reason for Holopainen being lost as described in these lyrics. We can only of course to a certain degree suppose how much of these are truly Holopainen's feelings, wishes and pains - but we do know that the lyrics of Nightwish have been up to then very personal. Other songs on the album also digest this separation and falling out of the members with Turunen.
This is one of the interpretations and i know lots of fans do not agree, they just need to read the open letter that was given to Tarja by the whole band at her last concert with Nightwish, where they fired her. And the main reason that Tuomas went through a depression was that specially the Tarja fans where furious and showed that in the media and everyone was blaming Tuomas. (the fans spit on his grave). He felt the whole world was against him.
However personal and "real" these thoughts are, I feel like this song definitely takes us not only on a journey with Holopainen but also into ourselves. The music underlines the emotional gravity of the song extremely well. And I believe a lot of people can actually relate to a sense of guilt and being overwhelmed that all they desired for is the safety of home and innocence. While being personal, the song can still ring true to it's listener. That's a quality Nighwish possesses in many, many more songs. The emotional journey is one we can all share and very few bands know how to put that journey into song and especially into sound as well as Nightwish does.
The band remains through all it's shores and Oceans, one of my main favourites and I hold special place for the band in my musical heart. I hope you have enjoyed reading my analysis and share some of my thoughts. If you do have any comments, please feel free to let me know. And remember the beauty of interpretation is that it is subjective; we can see all and feel different things in the same song and continue to love it endlessly.
Lyric analysis by Annika Hausen
Greetings from the Netherlands
I have a Tarja/Tuomas signed album of Angels Fall First from 1997 after listening to a sample of their songs from a prog website that has sadly disappeared. Even though Nightwish have evolved into what it is today, I still have a piece in my heart for the original band and singer Tarja.
looking forward to your reaction on one of a few songs that pulled me through a really dark time
👍🏻👍🏻
They knew the way Marcello handled things - there would have been allusions to problems, blame, and misdirection, so the open letter was to be clear why they split, that she was leaving anyway, their sadness & disappointment, and their wish for her to be happy. It backfired but was necessary & would have been worse if not public. She wanted to be solo and has done well. So all is good in the end.
This was a very intense period for the band. I admit that I had lost track of the band following this moment. I was always into them for the music, not the drama, so I kind of lost interest in them, although I still listened to their old albums on regular rotation. When they announced a new album with a new singer, I checked it out but it was so different from their past incarnation that it didn't hold my interest for long. I know that there are some great songs on that album, but I had moved on...at least until later on when I decided to revisit that album and Imaginaerum. I still longed for the operatic style of Tarja, but had renewed interest in their work with Anette, giving it a fair chance on it's own merits. Anyways, my interest waned again until Floor joined as I had heard her in After Forever and ReVamp so I was excited by what was to come. Well, on to the next video! Cheers!
Hi Debbie. The definitive version of PATP is the LIVE version that they did in Wembley Stadium in 2015 (published in 2016). It is head and shoulders above the studio version. Not only is Floors voice much better suited for this song, but also Floor´s empathic and expressive powers and stage presence make this version super special. Be sure to get this version for your reaction!
I concur.
"Wembley ARENA" 🙃✌️😉
@@jaskau2462 Oops, you are right... 😎🤘
It looks like my family has filled you in on the circumstances of the song quite thoroughly. For those of us that were fans of the band at the time the whole situation hit us very hard.
The fact that Tarja's letter didn't focus in any of the sad events Nightwish's letter mentioned, means that they actually happened, at least in my eyes. I certainly believe that the open letter of the band wasn't the best way for this sad 'divorce', but we don't really know if they have other options and opportunities since the letter says that they don't hang out or rehears together anymore. In my heart as a fan, as a musician, as a music producer Tuomas was, is and will be the heart and the brain behind Nightwish. There were be not a single song without him and this band could never exist without him. The amount of hate that he got was so huge that he literally had suicide thoughts. Thank God he expressed that feelings in a song instead of doing something like that. I can't imagine how things would be if social media thrived back then as they are today. Almost 20 years after those incidents there are people that still write awful things about Tuomas and Nightwish. I've been hurt deeply in my life from toxic people and after all those years and my experience in life, Marcelo probably was one. I can't believe that Tarja was herself when all those incidents mentioned on the open letter took place. I'm happy that both sides found their way in music and in life. Maybe a huge show in the 30 years anniversary of the band with both Tarja and Floor on stage with the band would be the best happy end in all of this mess. Since Floor and Tarja are friends my hope is alive.
One thing I will add. This entire incident is split up into four different songs:
Bye Bye Beautiful, which is Tuomas' goodbye letter to Tarja.
The Poet and the Pendulum, which is Tuomas' response to the fans that all but eviscerated him over the fallout of this incident.
Master Passion Greed, which is the band's letter to Tarja's husband/manager, Marcelo Cebuli, for whom the band blamed for most of the change in Tarja.
I Stand Alone, which is Tarja's response back to the band and the fans. I believe that is the correct name of the song from her first solo album.
Bye Bye Beautiful was played live only a couple of times, with Anette Olzon being the singer of Nightwish. Floor has stated that she will never sing this song, live, studio, private performance, or otherwise. She is good friends with Tarja. I personally do not know if there is any recording of this live; however, an official music video was made by the band.
Master Passion Greed was never played live, and never will be played live. Tuomas stated that he is no longer that person, so this is only available as a studio track. It is Nightwish's heaviest song.
I know nothing of I Stand Alone.
So what we have is The Poet and the Pendulum. I do not believe it was played any other time after Wembley, nor will it be played again. If anything, after researching the letter, I would say to react to those songs in this order so you can understand the entire incident, especially after reading both letters.
So the Poet and the Pendulum is
What a powerful moment!! Of course the fans at this moment had no idea of the truth. But it was still the last show of the tour. There was no story like “we will be back in the studio next summer….” When would Nightwish be back? The band knew there might not be a band, maybe they were done. Many bands don’t survive the change of the lead singer. Kudos to Annette for choosing to take the road. We got two fabulous albums out of it!!
Very thorough research on the matter. You should be as ready as you can be.
This event was the beginning of the sequence of events that ultimately led to the term "Floorgasm" being invented. I think it was a column writer for one of the metal e-zines, but can't remember which one. Everyone uses it now, but the usage is somewhat incorrect relative to its original intended meaning. It really only applies (and CAN only apply) to the mass of original fans who saw the magical chemistry of NW + Tarja to be inseparable and were heartbroken. Newer listeners who only joined the fanbase after this watershed event experienced Annette as the original (to them) singer and, as such, cannot understand the emotional attachment embodied in the original Floorgasm because they didn't experience it.
What new fans today call a Floorgasm is really just referring to what, medically, is called a frisson, that chill of goosebumps and flush of adrenaline one feels when struck by a particularly beautiful and technically challenging passage accomplished by a favored and respected singer. Floorgasm was entirely different and went way above and beyond a mere frisson. Here is what happened.
Not meant to disparage Annette in any way for she is an excellent singer and a sweet person, and she did not deserve the nastiness and hatred that was directed at her by some rude fans. But the indisputable fact remains that, for the heartbroken masses of Tarja fans, Annette's style, capabilities, and stage command were so different from what the Tarja fans hungered for, that she was rejected, most would say unfairly, some would say deservedly. But whichever side one was on, it commenced a long, five year period of heartbroken Tarja fans still showing up for NW concerts and still cheering for their beloved band. But the magical chemistry was gone from the live shows, though not from the studio albums. And there was an accompanying undercurrent of melancholy and sadness seething just below the surface. Five years is a long time to endure this kind of repressed melancholy, and many fans took out their anger on poor Annette who, in my humble opinion, did not deserve what she got.
Well, as history unfolded, the tension and unhappiness within the band once again began to build, tension of a different kind in Annette's case, but tension nonetheless. It came to a head in the middle of the Imaginaerum World Tour in 2012 where she was similarly dismissed under unpleasant circumstances just before the Denver, Colorado show. At the Denver venue, they were left without a singer and recruited help from the band that was opening for them on that tour by asking Elize Ryd and Alissa White Gluz to step in for a one-time effort to handle the singing of reduced setlist while reading the lyrics from printed sheets of paper. But that's a whole 'nother story! Cut to the Seattle, Washington show a few days later:
They needed a more permanent solution to the missing singer problem, and that's where Floor came to the rescue. The long-suffering fans met her with trepidation as an unknown factor. Floor, herself, said in an interview that she too was scared. She used the words, "I was standing back stage absolutely shitting my pants!" After Annette's experience, she was afraid the fans might, figuratively speaking, throw rotten tomatoes at her. Plus now she would have, in addition to the Tarja fans, the Annette fans would hate her too! Well, they didn't. They fell in love with her! Now, cut to the Houston, Texas venue a few weeks later:
At least I think it was Houston, but I may have the city misremembered. That show was the first time NW felt confident enough to re-include Ghost Love Score in the set list. Floor added her own signature ending for the very first time. GLS has always been one of the most beloved anthems from NW, but long after the point where Tarja was finished singing and exited stage left to let the guys finish the outro, Floor was still going. And oh boy did she GO!! It was surely a less intense experience for the Annette fans, but for the long-suffering, heartbroken Tarja fans, that epic ending indicated in an instant that the MAGIC WAS BACK in Nightwish and Floor was the goddess who brought it. The response of the fans at that moment was so incredible that the previously mentioned e-zine column writer described it as being akin to a spontaneous and simultaneous mass release of five years of pent up tension in an explosion of tears of joy like nothing he had ever seen before! He likened it to a you-know-what and coined the term "Floorgasm" to describe it.
So the true Floorgasm was a one-time only historical event, never to be repeated. One had to first fall in love with the original Angel, Tarja, then be shattered by her angel wings being burnt to dust (lyrics line from "I Wish I Had An Angel"), then suffer five years of sadness and pain at the loss of the magic, then be shocked by the second singer's dismissal not knowing if the band was going to survive, and finally experiencing the one and only Houston Floorgasm or the GLS venues that followed it, provided they were your first time hearing Floor work her GLS magic! What we call Floorgasms today are mere frissons.
OK, I'll stop babbling now, and, yes, I was an old Tarja fan who got to experience the true Floorgasm! Trust me, it is different. Very different! Cheers! 🤘😎🤘
And what I'm gonna do now, it's take your comment, print it, frame it and then hang it on a wall! ❤️❤️❤️
@@enzieme69 It isn't copyrighted, so feel free to copy and share if you wish.
Hi Debbie. Prior to writing this, I have gone through many of the contributions already written so I didn't duplicate what had already been said. I am proud to be a part of such a caring community, and all of what I was going to tell you has already been written. Tuomas positioned this song as the first track of 'Dark Passion Play' so that Nightwish fans would hear and experience this emotional epic first. Of course it was also the first time that fans would have heard Anette's voice. The first part of the second movement ii) The Pacific is sung by a choirboy on the album. In the live performance at Wembley, Floor sings that part herself which adds an incredibly vulberability to her performance. The undulating seascape behind her seems to capture the emotion perfectly, and I always tear-up at this point. I may be wrong, but I believe that this is the last time the band ever played this song. It is a fitting epitaph to retire the song after this incredible performance. Big love to you xx
I think it's important to know that there is also a cultural aspect to these letters, especially the first one, because to many people, especially to Americans it might come through as harsh and way too direct.
This is a Nordic thing. Scandinavians and other Nordic people such as Finns are rather quiet and reclusive people. They mostly keep to themselves, talk very little and they are very much not good at chitchat, small talk - you can find lots of internet memes about this.
In their mind I guess speech was invented to communicate and they use it as such. So when they do speak, they get to the point. It's not like they are rude, on the contrary, they are nice and considerate. But they will almost never beat around the bush, and that might come across as blunt to some people.
If a Finn decides to be your friend, he or she will be a very true and honest friend. Loyal to the hilt but also a straight mirror that always shows you the truth. Ready to stand by your side whatever happens, but also to stand up to you when you're in the wrong and tell uncomfortable things to your face. In their mind part of love and respect is to speak the truth.
When a Finn speaks big words he or she means it. You rarely hear them saying "I love you" for instance, even between lovers, couples you can't hear that often because they will only say it when they really, deeply mean it, they will never utter those words lightly or joke about it.
That is true. I lived in US for many years and for me the ', I love you' that was thrown to the left and right was completely unknown for me and something that took a long time to get adjust to, and that completely strangers talked to me like they had known me for years, that some would do here if they've known me for years.
I really learned to love the Americans and they're openness towards everyone, that something I cherish and took with me when I came back to Finland.
Before doing the concert footage, familiarize your self with Edgar Allen Poe's short story "The Pit & The Pendulum". The title was only changed to "Poet..." The visuals in the concert reflect the story. When you do this reaction have tissues ready.
Hi Debbie, I think your good to go and check that Poet and the Pendelum song. 2015 Wembley(Make sure to find one with lyrics/subtitles) It has so many motions that your need to see what is been said in a song.
I don't think there's more (necessary) to know. Just be aware, that TPATP is about Tuomas dealing with what he had to do and the reaction he received. The feelings and thoughts concerning Tarja and Marcelo were put into the songs "Bye bye beautiful" (Tarja) and "Master passion greed" (Marcelo).
It's only fair to say (from someone who already was a fan back then) that we as fans went crazy in our disbelief about what happened and especially the way it happened. Mistakes were made by everyone involved, no one was the only devil and no one was the only saint.
Now you need to listen to Master Passion Greed to feel the anger at Marcello. It's heavy, angry, and to the point.
I just did that song, and I had no idea that it was meant as anger towards him. I happen to actually love this song, but didn’t know.
I'm glad you waited until you were in a safe space, emotionally, and your reaction, just to the poetic mastery, is one most of us share. Keep those Puffs handy. Find the peace Tuomas found.
It's great that you're doing your research before Poet and the Pendulum. For me as a viewer, it's always great when the reactors on this song know the history of Nightwish, Tarja and the 2005 situation.
The history of Nightwish is very long and there is a lot of information about the band that is hard to cover in one comment. I'll just say that Tarja and Tuomas communicated through songs after the drama in 2005. And if you're going to do a reaction to Poet and The Pendulum, you could do a reaction to Tarja's songs, which are her view of the whole situation, songs like Enough, or Diva, I recommend getting the lyrics as well.
Here's a live version of Diva's song from her last DVD (Tarja wrote this song as her reaction to being singled out for being a Diva in the letter. She now performs this song with exaggeration and humor), hope no one blocks the video until then th-cam.com/video/2bdJF4Ihgac/w-d-xo.html
Here's her song, lyric version from Enough fans (lyrics are in the caption below the video), th-cam.com/video/XcfalSS0WVw/w-d-xo.html
Tuomas also wrote Master Passion Greed, a song addressed to Marcelo and Bye, Bye Beautiful addressed to Tarja. The song Cadence last breath also references Tarja and she responded to this song with her own Until my last breath.
And as you pointed out, the passion on the fans' faces at the end of the End of Era concert is directly proportional to the pain the fans felt the next day. Many of them left the group along with Tarja. Nightwish was never the same for me either. Now I'm glad that Tarja has her solo career, I actually like her a lot more now than when she was in Nightwish and I like her music more too. I just wish things had turned out differently between her and Nightwish, they caused each other a lot of pain. Tarja said in one interview that it was the second worst thing in her life after the death of her mother.
I think how ironic that Tuomas tried to avoid speculation with an open letter and instead created one of the biggest dramas alive in the metal scene, and he didn't avoid speculation and rumors anyway. They should have settled these things in private without publicly humiliating Tarja.
I mainly take all one-sided statements with caution, because even Tuomas's letter is a one-sided thing and no one knows what exactly happened in the band and what the dynamics of relations were there. But I think everyone has learned their lesson since then.
I saved both links. Thank you. 💙
I was guest from nightwish on the Meraluna show in Germany and the Meanfidler show in Londen. I meet the band there but no Tarja.. at the Mera Luna Show i saw hou Marcello keep Tarja Apart from the other bandmembers and guests . Also in Londen i saw Marcello hold Tarja afar from the fans and even from the bandmembers.. i was not shocked when the band fired her.. shame it was musical a great combination.
Only Tarja and Tuomas know the TRUTH of what happened, no one else; the rest are gossip (Bla Bla Bla...) Greetings from Argentina!!!🤘😉❤
The Poet and the Pendulum is, of course, primarily about Tuomas' turmoil in the aftermath of the Tarja situation. The title is also, though, a reference to Edgar Poe's "The Pit and the Pendulum" and the lyrics are interlaced with the themes/events from that.
Hi Debbie, again I am amazed by the way you do your preparation! It's the period after these 2 letters TPATP is dealing about. The whole lot of criticism Tuomas received and the crap that was thrown over him made him to write his musical suicide, so that he had not to do it in real life (thank god!). In periods of their deepest hardship writes create their most beautiful pieces. As did Tuomas. What a beautiful piece of art. It touches me every time I listen to it, even after hearing it so many times. In the early years of TPATP Tuomas regularly asked the techs to turn the vocals off in his in-ears as to not be overwhelmed by the emotion. You also will see the guys checking out with him to see if he's OK. In recent years he has said he is now over that, that it's been many years ago and he is not that same person anymore.
As part of the preparation, perhaps check out the lyrics in advance (edit: ahh, you already did...)
The song is a true masterpiece and Floor ( I presume you do the Wembley 2015 version) is a magnificent storyteller. Have some tissues within reach.
Thank you so much 💙
You are about to react to one of my favourite songs of all time (specifically the Wembley performance). It's an absolute masterclass!!!!
I think Tuomas, Marko, Jukka and Emmpu
have thought about it carefully, regarding the letter ...Difficult to say anything about this, but all four of them agreed to do it this way…💌 ✨
HIGH HOPES - NIGHTWISH
A tribute to Pink Floyd
Nightwish performs the High Hopes song during a 2005 tour. The first time without Tarja.
I can see why.....
The Title? 🌈🍀🌻
Great prep work.
Thank you 💙
What a caption on the back screens to end the show.
Once I had a dream - Nightwish - and this is it! The opening line from the fist song "Dark Chest of Wonders". The last record with Tarja.
The record is titled "Once", as in once upon a time or the original idea for a band. Tuomas thinking about the end of the dream of Nightwish, possibly. Also reflecting back to when he was sitting around that campfire and dreaming about a band and musical career. Once he had a dream. Was it about to end. It must have been very stressful to play that last show. How could you interact with Tarja knowing what was to come at shows end?
Tarja married Marcelo in 2003 and separated from Nightwish by using him as her personal manager. This must have driven a wedge between herself and the other member of Nightwish.
A divorce. That is exactly what it feels like. The singer is the face and voice of the band. Very difficult to decide to part ways with the singer. Especially one who is so beloved and unique in her vocal style.
I think you are ready. Keep in mind the metaphoric and imagery style of Tuomas' poetry.
All of it is long removed and everyone has moved on. Nightwish coninued very successfully with Anette and Tarja has a very successful solo career.
I think it's important to remember that there are 2 sides to all these things. I'm sure there are things that the guys in the band could have done differently as well as Tarja. I don't think the open letter was a great way of handling the situation, and they have expressed their regret at that in later years, but I guess we sometimes do rash things when placed in horrible situations. Tarja has gone on to have a good solo career and a lot of fences have been mended over the years as Tarja has sung with Marco at concerts and has mentioned they have all been in contact with each other in some way over the years. Her and Floor have always been friends as well, and have performed together on stage.
I’m so glad to hear that
Debbie, a couple of things. I haven't seen it mentioned here but TPATP is written chronologically in reverse, you will hear a whispered "The End" at the actual start and "The Beginning" at the actual end.
Secondly, you haven't done "Alpenglow" from Wembley as far as I can see, but this was the song immediately before TPATP, the final chorus with the line "Conquering the darkest places" has Floor go to Tuomas and sing that line directly at him. You can figure that out I'm sure.
Best wishes from a bright but cold SW France.
R.
Remember this too. It wasn’t just firing Tarja but the insane backlash and hate he got from the press and fans. In Finland Nightwish are basically the Beatles. The prime minister even gave him shade for it. But see that’s why I read the song as having a happy ending. The beginning, find your shore. He did, eventually he found Floor and became the best version itself.
In love with the divine TARJA'S vast diverse brilliant solo career !!!!!!
Have never in my life seen a person happier than her !!!!!
💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘💘
Hi Debbie, this is truly the end of Tarja's Era and a sad day for me but, thanks God, now we have Floor. BTW at time something had been in the air for some time.
Yeah, that was a shock back then. That could be handled better, but...
I have always been a fan of NW music it self, than being focused to a singer as much. Even singer has a huge inpact in whole thing. I loved NW with Tarja, I loved NW with Anette (studio version of that era, bc of Anette's total difference with singing style wasn't imo good for Tarja era songs live)
Choice of Anette was (for me) a bit weird, but very understandable, total difference might be a key there.
As said earlier, live with Anette wasn't that good so it was only 1 concert for me. Then came Floor. I was very excited and managed to "hold my horses" to August 2015, to see her live for the first time. That was IT for me. I thought then, as I do today, match made in heaven. All the old feelings was back and then some.
So everything what happened before, made a sense. It had to be like that.
Sounds weird, right?
I miss Marko tho, but choose to be VERY curious to see if Jukka get's vocal...
So sorry for this rambling, but it make sense in my mind 😂
Debbie; preparate para disfrutar de la mejor performance realizada alguna vez de una canción en un concierto de metal; UNA "PIEZA MAESTRA" DE LA MÚSICA LLEVADA A CABO POR NIGHTWISH PARA LA POSTERIDAD!!!😉🤘❤
Appreciating your Nightwish Journey, a band like no other. Seems every fan share a personal connection with them. If you haven't recorded a reaction to the Pit and the Pendulum, one suggestion - this is one definitely want to have 'on screen lyrics'. There are several versus that are important, but barely audible so good to have the lyrcis along with listening. Doing a great Job Debbie - always look forward to your comments and thoughts are for Nightwish.
I haven’t recorded it yet. I’ll make sure to have the lyrics in video
"The poet and the pendulum" is from Anette's time. It was released on the album Dark Passion Play (2007), the group's sixth. According to Tuomas this song was the way he found to deal with the depression after Tarja's departure. The band received a lot of hatred from all over the world. They lost a lot of fans. I'm going to summarize the story for you to understand why people's reaction was so negative.
Tarja's resignation was a very dramatic episode. The relationship between her and the band had been bad for some time, so at the end of 2004 she decided to tell the band that she would leave. The idea was to record one last album and go on a farewell tour. She wanted to announce her decision to the public and prepare fans for the vocalist change, however, Tuomas convinced her not to do so at the time.
It turns out that, after that meeting, the band planned a public firing on the sly. They delivered a letter to Tarja at the end of the "End of an era" show and posted it on the band's website the next day. The band made several accusations against Tarja and her husband. It was a scandal.
In response, Tarja wrote a letter and held a press conference to respond better to the group's accusations. Her husband also spoke. He answered more than 150 questions from fans around the world and posted the answers on the internet.
Given the reports that were brought and other available records, including videos and documentaries, a large part of the fan base revolted against the band. Faced with criticism from different sides, Tuomas fell into a depression and wrote "The poet and the pendulum" as a way of dealing with the situation.
Some say that Tuomas suffered from unrequited love for Tarja. This feeling would have been the fuel for the composition of some songs. The question of Tuomas' love for Tarja is actually an old theory of fans. This theory was built even before Tarja's dismissal, and is based on old interviews and on the lyrics that Tuomas used to write.
The idea of the existence of unrequited love was strengthened when Marcelo himself (Tarja's husband) spoke about the subject in the responses he gave to fans. See these answers:
"36) Many people say that everything this happened because
he Tuomas felt something for the Tarja and this feeling was not corresponded. It was the impression that passed. This can be answered? Or not?
Heluza Mercaus Viegas Brazil
I promised that everything was going to be answered.
To cut a long story short, in October 2004 I needed to ask Tuomas to come to talk to Tarja and me in our hotel room in the middle of the tour.
Even though he knows Tarja many years before me, he never could achieve his goal.
In this meeting I clearly told him that his chances to be with Tarja were gone.
I needed to tell him that there was no reason to keep on trying any longer, since I married her.
As usual he didn't speak much, but he said to me that nobody was going to be able to stop his love for Tarja.
After this unhappy meeting, everything changed.
The guy that until then said in interviews that, without Tarja, that would be the end of Nightwish, changed his message into: Nightwish is my band, my music, my lyrics, the scenery of my soul.
Is up to you to check all interviews from the band before and after end of 2004 until today.
Tarja never changed her thoughts about her position in the band.
She has never mentioned that Nightwish was her band or that she was more important than the other band members.
Nightwish lyrics are Tuomas' life diary, as it has been said. With this new information that I am sharing with you, please check once again some of them. We all can find amazing songs with beautiful lyrics full of poetry. Their meaning won't remain that uncertain any longer.
37) Was Tarja in any romance/love way with Tuomas (he seems jelouice to me).
Mariela Todoroviè Slovenia
Tarja never had any romance nor was ever in love with him.
I have received many questions accusing Tuomas of being jealous, envious, bitter and of being in love. I have no interest in making any judgement about those things and people's feelings.
Other people than Tuomas also told me how much they love Tarja. There are many different levels of love and I have no problems with any of them as long as reasonable limits are not exceeded.
Is funny if you carefully check the cover of End of an Era (that Tarja didn't propose, but accepted).
You will find what seems to be an angel (Tarja's nickname in the official forum of her web page) and a demon or god. Only these two characters dominate the scene. I couldn't find any other characters in the cover at all.
They are standing facing away from each other.
Between them there is turmoil and a strong light, whether striking into or coming out of a cracked heart.
It is definitely not Tarja's heart. Her heart is very healthy and full of love, because she has always listened to it (instead of me); as Tuomas advised her to do in the open letter.
The title of the scene is "Nightwish - End of an Era".
You can make your own conclusions. I am merely describing a DVD cover
157) What were, in your opinion, the real motives for Tarja Turunen to be out of Nightwish?
¿Cuáles fueron, en tu opinión, los verdaderos motivos de la salida de Tarja Turunen de Nightwish? Marta Perez Spain
I think we will never know the real motives. Motives rest in Tuomas, some close people and band members' hearts. Seems there has been at least very strong motives to kick out Tarja, specially the way they did it.
Some of them might be the mentioned cultural differences that band members have in their minds and hearts with me, the non corresponded love from Tuomas to Tarja, Tarja's values that didn't match Tuomas and Tarja's maturity that didn't match Tuomas and the others, not compatible life styles between band members, different concept of friendship and responsibilities that comes with it, different approach to record business, the obvious problem to communicate within the band; just to name a few."
The depression itself and the song "The poet and the pendulum" can, in theory, be read as a reflection of this love drama. Regardless of whether this theory about Tuomas is true or not, the fact is that bringing internal issues to the public was the worst choice. A lot of the band's past has been brought up and no one has come out unscathed. Because of the scandal, Tarja lost some fans and contracts for her solo career. On the other hand, the band also lost fans and had little-known events brought to a wider audience. For example, Tarja suffered an attempted sexual abuse in the middle of a concert in Guadalajara in 2000.
At the time, the band continued playing as if nothing had happened, even after Tarja left the stage along with the criminal and the security guards. There are videos of the episode here on TH-cam. Later, after Tarja left, the band itself mentioned the event in its official biography.
The way the band decided to fire Tarja and the facts of the past that were brought to public knowledge infuriated many fans. To get a sense of how big the fan base was in the past, look at the number of views of the first videos with Anette ("Bye, bye, beautiful" and "Amaranth"). These numbers are representative of the fan base situation at the end of Tarja's period and beginning of Anette.
The first album with Anette was the band's first album ever released with TH-cam ever running. We were all curious to know who the new singer was and what she sounded like. Unfortunately Anette didn't please a large part of the original fan base, which also contributed to the band losing more fans. Anette and Floor helped to attract a different audience and reconfigure the fan base. Some old fans have returned with the entry of Floor. She is nothing new to us. For example, I've known her since her first band, After Forever. Here are some sources:
Dismissal letter written by the band: nightwish.fandom.com/wiki/Open_Letter_to_Tarja_Turunen
Tarja's press conference after the dismissal, in full:
th-cam.com/video/ATDFinGZ8D8/w-d-xo.html
Marcelo's detailed response to questions sended by Nightwish fans at the dismissal
epoque: www.tuomasholopainen.fora.pl/wywiady-artykuly,29/odpowiedzi-marcelo-na-pytania-fanow-czerwiec-2006,455.html
Letter written by Tarja: nightwish.fandom.com/wiki/Open_Letter_from_Tarja_Turunen
A snippet from the book "Once Upon a Nightwish" detailing the abuse incident -
fromwishestoeternity.tumblr.com/post/111177476493/alfaangel-i-just-put-together-some-facts-about/amp
The video of the abuse incident: th-cam.com/video/3bj4h1807kY/w-d-xo.html
I only know Nightwish with Floor, that is enough for me. I understand and see the discussion about Tarja and Anette, but do not have any feelings with this discussion.
What i do know and highly appreciate about Nightwish is that they evolve, Tuomas is a living musical genius and you can see his development, feelings and interesses evolve and so is the whole band. Of course I do not have the same link with every song, I do love their work and specially their performances. I try to feel the emotion Floor can convey so well. And they keep showing depths that make be come back to certain songs. The Poet and the Pendulum is most definitely one of their best songs and performances. Always goosebumps and a deep feeling of sorrow, but also hope somehow. Maybe Floor's siren...
Hiya. All I would suggest is that you watch the video that has the Movement titles and the on-screen lyrics so that you can pause and react between movements rather than during an actual movement. And play the video all the way out at the end, of course. Stay safe. All the best to you.
I've been enjoying watching your Nightwish reaction 😊 if I can please please please request that you check out Blind Guardian. They have been around since the 80s and are true bards. They tell stories through their songs about various mythological stories or newer stories from various books etc. I suggest checking out the song Nightfall from their album Nightfall on middle earth which is related to lord of the rings. I also suggest checking out and then there was silence which is about the oddessy and the Trojan war. Thanks!
The wardrobe changes where for tarja who had to change all the clothes she required and that she demanded nightwish pay for, this was a decision made by all the members marco had even said if they didn't get rid of her he would leave I've also heard the husband was taking money from the product t-shirts and things then after this happened he tried saying it was because tuomas was in love with tarja and jealous, I don't think I care much for the husband and fed tarja ego she became to important this is what I read into it because I was curious about what happened, I saw friends of all theirs outside of nightwish and they didn't have nice things to say about tarja and her husband all this is stuff you can find for yourself it's out there I only found out about nightwish a little over a year ago and after the first time I heard poet and the pendulum and read the comments I had to find out what all the fuss was about God bless
You should also - almost as a sidenote - listen and react to "Master Passion Greed". A song off of the album that followed Tarjas departure.
The song - sung by Marco - is a very angry dig at Marcelo. It has, to my knowledge, never been performed live as Toumas do not want to revisit those feelings. But at the time it was a necessary song for them to make to clear the air and get it out there.
It is arguably Nightwish most heavy and angry song and really stands out that way.
The breakup alone sparked the creation of several fantastic songs:
Bye Bye Beautiful - farewell to Tarja
Master Passion Greed - a "message" to Marcelo :)
Poet and the Pendulum - a reaction to backlash from fans who blamed Tuomas for everything, even if the decision was unanimous (the prime minister of Finland also had things to say)
It's stupid to demand a homework from a reactor while none of us had to do it, but then again, the letters does help put some light on what happened and NW history, which is interesting by itself.
Hi Debbie, one more tip. If you do the live version at Wembley (which is the best, as said), be sure to let the recording run untill the very end!
I will. Promise 💙
hiya Debbie to my individual knowledge these letters divided nightwish fans for quite a while. Some say this is why then singer after Tarja wasn't well received (then there was some public discourse between the next singer when she left that didnt help) NOW im only stating from my personal opinion and my perceptions of that time. I discovered Nightwish with Tarja as front person and individually other than two songs. (AND NOT TAKING AWAY from her individual talent) Im more individually an Fan of Floor and i have always been an fan of the talent of Tuomas. (I dont mean to ramble on with this comment but im an very honest person in my feelings towards Nightwish and musicians in general) WHEN you hear and react to the song the Poet and the Pendulum you will discover the feelings that Tuomas had on the split and the destructive emotions it brought to him. still today he doesnt have the ear piece in when the song is apart of the concert performance list and it is extremely rarely performed (from what i have individually heard via the grapevine). Individually I really looking forward to listening/watching your individual reaction to the Poet and Pendulum (BTW you should get an discord channel for your subscribers and patrons for chats on musicians and music in general) HIYA and well wishes from (at the moment very snowy blizzardly conditions) of Southern Ontario Canada!! and stay well as always!
Think how much they disregarded themselves in that concert. Jukka played with a migraine, they felt terrible and yet they did one of their best concerts. Terribly sad and beautiful at the same time.
If you go back and watch old documentaries and old interviews, you’ll realize a lot of that letter doesn’t make sense. Rectors tend to listen to the new fanbase that doesn’t really know much about the band’s history. The old fanbase knows Toumas’s history, so we take everything he says with a grain of salt. The truth most likely lies somewhere in the middle. They all were at fault for the firing. It’s not so one sided.
Tuomas wrote Dead Boys Poem and said what it meant. Tarja sang those words but did she feel them? Marcelo did not like the US and Australia and so Tarja found reasons to dislike them too. WTF? Things changed for all concerned for the better. The what-ifs are endless. So glad that everyone had better things happen for them. Tarja's solo career took off and Nightwish got better and better. Maybe not the best way to part but it was done. There were reasons on all sides for parting ways and all are valid. The rumours were probably more damaging than the truth. Keep looking forwards, not backwards.
Did Tarja feel the song? You might want to read what Toumas thought about Tarja’s interpretations of his music. It amazes me when people that don’t know much about the bands history makes these comments.
@@nicholew350 and that's why everyone, Marko, Jukka, Emppu and Tuomas, agreed that she had to go!? bye, troll!
@@damienmaynard8892 Marko said "the problem wasn't Tarja, it was her luggage [Marcelo]" so yes, Tarja's interpretations of the music had literally nothing to do with the band's decision. Also we know that Emppu, Marko and Tuomas all texted/tried to call her afterwards. You don't do that with someone you hate and are glad to be rid of.
Tomas compositions made Tarja and Nightwish stars, you might be greatful enough to atleast acgnolige his talent of the hole thing. Feels like there are facts in the bands letter, that are'nt meet at all in Tarja's response. Tarjas letter is more of defending her husband........💓??
It doesn't get any better at the press conference. She laments in tears how surprising it would have been for her. There were rumors about the separation long before that, because the break could no longer be overlooked.
I actually like the way Tarja handled it. This could have easily turned into a "he said, she said" if she had started pointing out everything the band did or said that made her want to leave in the first place, like the heavy drinking, the inappropriate sexual comments etc.
I honestly appreciate that she chose to not make this personal in return and point fingers. I'm sure she could have because the way I've come to see it, both sides had their valid reasons for all the irritation and frustrations.
Yeah, one super issue is the fact that Tarja and Floor became friends in 2002 when After forever were the supporting act for the NW eurotour, and that friendship is still going on.....💕
@@karadenizin-kizi Tarja did exactly this outpointing. She has complained that they get the least money. But she also did the least because she only showed up for the dress rehearsal. When Tuomas recently presented the first demos during the tour, Floor recorded them and immediately made suggestions for their implementation. Tarja complained that the others smoked and drank too much and didn't pay attention to their voices. That's why she had to travel separately. Hannes met Floor drinking whiskey and smoking a cigar. Tarja was always just the hired opera diva. Floor is one of the metalheads. That's why the break with Tarja came about. Tarja wasn't part of the band anymore.
@@Mischnikvideos Everyone knows the break was inevitable. But I don't think it's wrong to look after your own health.
Not having watched your video yet, but their problem was Tarjas husband, he was the one who drew Tarja away from Tuomas. I remember those times very well, but we had no idea what was going on until the book of Nightwish was published. But the fans turned on Tuomas the way he never thought could be possible and that is what was most hard on him.
He wrote this song as his own help to get through this, he never planned to record it, but he showed it to the other band members and they told him they have to record this. It is a masterpiece both musically and lyrically.
You are going to need a case of tissues for this one. I suggest the Floor live version from Wembley 2016 with HQ Audio and Lyrics. She gives an emotional and stellar performance! Also, note the 3 minute countdown in the lyrics, that is an actual timer to a final outcome.
While I recognize that Tuomas is a superior composer, I think the way the Tarja firing was handled, no comment on whether it was necessary, show his character flaws. The song Poet and the Pendulum strikes me as self pitying for a situation he caused. He chose to handle it badly.
@Kotikunnas And who do you think determined the shape and final cut of this documentary? Tuomas.
@Kotikunnas Look, you don't seem to get it, I don't even care that Tarja was fired, I am a consumer of the music, internal band politics is of no interest to me. The firing was done with no class and that reflects on Tuomas, but even then I don't care that much.
But to whine because some people didn't like your decision and pull the "I'm just going to end myself" routine is immature and weak. He should be a man and take responsibility for his actions. If he truly believed it was in the best interest of the band to let her go, be a man and take accountability for doing so.
As far as the whole Marcello thing, that is deeper than most will go.
One moment in Tarja's letter perfectly shows how cunning and hypocritical she can be: She is "outraged" that Tuomas mentions Marcelo, her husband, in the letter and it looks too personal. In fact, what Tuomas did not mention in his letter is that Tarja made Marcelo her personal manager and he was not just her husband, but an authorized representative on her behalf involved in all the activities of Nightwish, with his very impudent and ultimatum approach to business.
Most fans didn't know about it at the time, and therefore some even thought that it was a kind of "love triangle" or "unrequited love". But later an authorized biography of Nightwish was published where they and other people from the music business spoke in detail about Marcelo's destructive activities in the band. Getting rid of Marcelo was no less a factor in the decision to fire Tarja than her own behavior. Tarja of course understood this when she wrote her letter, playing the image of an "insulted wife" in front of the fans.
"One moment in Tarja's letter perfectly shows how cunning and hypocritical she can be: She is "outraged" that Tuomas mentions Marcelo, her husband, "
Tarja told Nightwish WELL BEFOREHAND that she was going to leave Nightwish after the next record.They agreed to that,BUT THEN after things got bad Nightwish strung her along FOR MONTHS making her do the shows all the while knowing they were going to backstab her.In Tarja's press conference she seemed more sad about all of the people that Nightwish labeled in the letter, not just Marcelo.And who let Marcelo in? Nightwish did it themselves, so the band screwed things up more times that once.They asked him to take care of Tarja after "the incident" instead of taking care of it themselves.Such as stopping the show or doing something else. Marcelo was a stranger from the audience at that moment. Do you think they could pull that shit off nowadays? Hell no. So Marcelo was Tarja's manager and husband.Maybe she felt she needed a partner and somebody on her side at the time when Nightwish was a basically a slave drive and a party buss.
Ofcourse it all was insulting to tarja.To this day she's no diva and Tuomas admits that the things should have handled much better but has forgiven himself and others bécause of the state that they were in back then.This he said in fairly recent interview. Tarja never understood that they would call her a diva because she really wasn't and isn't.
Marcelo had no business getting involved in a Nightwish's business but he was looking after his wife and by looking at Tarja's career today and personal life.He is still with her after all these years. He must be doing something right. It was Tarja's thing to put her foot down with Marcelo and stop him from getting involved but she didn't. Maybe because of the reasons I mentioned above.
Back then: Nightwish and Tarja lacked in communication skills. Tarja said that they didn't talk.Apparently Nightwish had a shitty management too who didn't take care of things. Maybe Tarja matured more quickly than the rest of the band because nowadays Nightwish does what Tarja wanted already back then: Bigger venues, less shows,more off time between the shows and everyone has other projects besides Nightwish. I guess one could say Tarja was ahead of things back then.
Nightwish is by all means no innocent in this. They did Tarja dirty no matter how they were allowed to do it. They thought they were smart with the open letter, they brought to shit show against them themselves by airing the dirty laundry.
@@jaanahedemaki6993 Stop lying and distorting the facts in a pleasant way for you.
You and I have already discussed all this.
There is an official biographical book where everything is written in detail from the words of not only Tuomas, but also the rest of the band members, managers and other people from the music business who witnessed all this. Neither Tarja nor her husband have objected to anything stated in the book in any way over the years.
And Tuomas never apologized for anything related to Tarja, because there was nothing to apologize for.
I suggest you watch the live version with Floor, she puts a soul in that song.
Tuomas was in love with Tarja and she did not reciprocate. There are many things behind the expulsion of Tarja.
Marcelo is husband and also he became the Manager of Tarja within Nightwish. He started to claim, that Tarja is the biggest Star in Nightwish and that she should be compensated monetary the biggest and also whispered things in Tarja's ear to make Tarja start to behave like a Diva in a Band, which never works.. Marcelo started turn Tarja away from the band to her own benefits only - more money to Tarja means of course more money to him, hence the motive..
And look also Tuomas had no choice. Metal bands tour, big venues and small. They played the three legs of the Dark passion play tour in the US, and two in South America. Tarja thought she was too big to be on a bus doing meet and greets. And showering at venues and truck stops. It’s not glamorous at all unless your at Metallica level of success.
It wasn't just Tarja though, I'll have to paraphrase but Emppu said in the Nightwish biography that he also didn't like having to meet the fans all sweaty because their own management (Ewo &Co) once again forgot to make sure the venues had showers and the only thing you could rely on was that there was always booze at hand. He also said that with Cabuli, if he said he'd get something done, he always kept that promise. So I think most of their in-band problems were caused by mismanagement / 2 managements.
And you have been there to know this, right? No- one knows why except for the band members of this period.
I think that if you check this reaction you will have a lot more information about the song and how hard this song is still for Tuomas to perform: th-cam.com/video/JqSjh8tCR0s/w-d-xo.html
Oh I don’t want to watch any reaction because I want my first time watching it to be with you all. I think I’m ready for it. Thank you for helping me.
@@thequestionqueens we are all with you
Don't react to an Anette version...w Floor at Wembley
dear lady i shall just say tissues lots of boxes of tissues at the ready
Hi Debbie,
What I can never understand is the reaction of the Tarja fans. It is obvious from the open letter(that they all had access to) that Tarja’s behaviour brought about her own downfall. Her own letter didn’t address the fact that she intended to leave the band anyway and the tone of it tried to make her out to be a victim.
Some Tarja fans can’t seem to let go and are very jealous of the success and wider recognition that Floor’s more versatile vocals have brought them.
I have had some real nasty replies from some of my comments from Tarja fans. I have never been disrespectful to Tarja and have even said she was a trailblazer in the genre. But, just by praising Floor I unleashed a torrent of abuse from Tarja trolls.
Anyway, things worked out for the best because Nightwish are a far better band today than they have ever been.
The open letter isn't an evidence of anything, it is only one sides opinion.
@@PetraPola I don’t think that Tuomas would lie about Tarja telling him that the next album would be her last. I don’t think he would lie about her not travelling with the band and not rehearsing with the band. All of these things meant that she was not committed to the band. It was obviously hard for them but the whole band decided that she needed to go.
I can’t see any reason other that Tarja’s own actions leading to her dismissal.
Mostly I trust what Marko Hietala has been telling. He - generally speaking - has always been more straightforward than e.g. Tuomas Holopainen. So, yes, Tarja had told to the guys that she will record only one more album and no gigs... I think that means clearly: good-bye.
The history is not necessary to enjoy this song. This is not aimed at you hon. The fans are very insistent to reactors that it is. I cant imagine how all of the parties feel about of it being dredged up constantly. Plus, the Tarja and sometimes Tuomas bashing is alive and well in the comment sections. This song is another Tuomas masterpiece and can be treated and interpreted on many levels. Just enjoy!
Debbie,
For this song, please try and stay focused on the meaning of this song from Tuomas perspective, because that's what it's about. I'm pretty sure you're going to be able to imagine and feel the despair that led to Tuomas writing a song that he literally kills himself in. I'm 100% sure you're going to get this one, if you relate this song to what you've been through in life. Without going into detail, publicly, I've already told you that this song helped save my life when I was at my lowest. I truly believe that No other vocalist other than Floor, can convey the feeling and the emotion of Tuomas, the song writer.
Kleenex. Lots of them. I think the open letters explain everything you need to know. The only thing I would say is floors version live is the best. I love Annette just not for this song, although it was written for her to sing I just enjoy floors more.
Someone should have told Debbie NOT to do this, it's completely unnecessary and pointless ! Re: the letters
Well, I thought it was important for me.
In my opinion a open letter is not a good and fair idea. Ok we have something to talk about now... but i think its never a good idea to do that.
C'mon Debbie, do the reaction.
She will get to it when she is ready, please be patient :)
🇬🇧 Norfolk reports for duty , when you play-the poet l love how the band members look out for Tuomas and the riff Marco plays in his solo part without looking is mind blowing! Masterpiece of all masterpieces 😊