Really interesting info! I enjoy John Hamer's lecture series online so it was nice to see him as one of your guests. TH-cam recommended this second part of the this interview first so I'm going back to watch the first bit and then onward to listen to the rest. I enjoy your channel very much!
Those are good questions. RLDS do not wear garments and do not practice either the initiatory or endowment ceremonies. I believe the garments were more of a Nauvoo innovation and RLDS generally reject Nauvoo theology.
In Kirtland, it was only the initiatory ordinance that at the time they called "endowment." Nauvoo is where Joseph received the Masonic ceremonies and introduced the endowment ceremony.
On Josephsmithpapers.org you can find the original source for the Kirtland Temple vision if you look in the journal for 1836. The original is written in third hand by Warren Cowdery, unlike the first hand account in DC 110. There's no record, as far as I'm aware, of Joseph or Oliver discussing or preaching about this vision. And in Oliver's final testimony he talks about seeing Moroni, Peter James and John, but no mention of the Kirtland Temple vision.
My entire family comprised most of a RLDS church, they never called it a temple. As a little girl I remember them turning away black people from attending, I was very confused by that. I was in my late teens when everyone started bickering and fighting over doctrine, it was not a good time. Suddenly we were not allowed to to talk to the family members that decided to allow women to be members of the priesthood. Some aunts, uncles and cousins held "church in their homes. Others moved to Independence and I was taught that was where everyone had to be to be saved. The graphic at 5:00 was the clearest picture I have of the whole turmoil of this "church". I left at age 15 and never went back. Now that both of my parents are gone I'm interested in why they believed in what they believed.
It sounds as though your parents were part of one of the "Restorationist Branches" which broke away from Community of Christ/RLDS. To oversimplify the "Conservatives" left the Church when Section 156 was added to the Doctrine & Covenants. Women's calls to priesthood accepted. The Temple being built. The end of the Smith dynasty. The main body of the church would be extremely unlikely to have turned away black people (at least in your lifetime). The Temple is the headquarters of the Church on the Tempe Lot in Independence Mo. It was built in the late 20th Century. It sounds as though your memories come from before the Temple was built. The Temple didn't conform to the style of the Kirtland or Nauvoo Temples which came before and that was another issue for those who left. Gathering to Zion is another trait that the Church has de-emphasized and that Restorationists are unhappy about. The Conservatives think people should gather to live near the "Centerplace of Zion" which is the Temple Lot. Community of Christ these days tends to emphasize that building Zion is to be done wherever you are and that leads to the Peaceable Kingdom of God. If you get a Community of Christ version of the Doctrine & Covenants the latter sections give a very good idea of what the Church is like. In contrast the previous sections (up to 156) give a good idea of what the Conservatives vision of the church is.
@@kitiowa I am new to Gospel Tangents. I met Laughlin Mackay when we got to tour the Kirtland Temple in 1998 and found him to be very knowledgeable about its history. I wanted to thank you for your responses. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and I'm learning a lot from your responses here. Thank you for the respect you show everyone!
I assume you are asking about the R in RLDS, right? The R stands for "Reorganized." After Joseph Smith Jr died in 1844, there were about 9 claimants to lead the Church. Brigham Young took the largest group (LDS Church) west to Utah. Joseph III was about 12 years old at the time of his father's death, and obviously couldn't lead. He established the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on April 6, 1860. This group is the 2nd largest Restoration group.
The difference between the CoC temple and the LDS temple is that in the LDS temple, the temple ceremonies are like Masonic ceremonies. In fact they are so similar that a friend of mine who was a Mason and became a Mormon, all he could say was, they copied us!
Did they switch to COMMUNITY to look more like Classical Christianity? The LDS is doing what Joseph critiqued about the Christian church - all were wrong. F? R? Political Correct LDS?
No, that is not it. Remember that the 1830 Church was originally simply called the Church of Christ, long before it became Church of the Latter Day Saints, and finally Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So, Community of Christ was chosen because it is more similar to the original church name. (John Hamer has mentioned this in other interviews, but not this interview.)
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was just over the top for a title. Community encapsulated their focus on Zionic Principles. Kingdom of God, Zion, Church, Gathering, and Prophetic People are all concepts which can fit into the single word 'community'. It is kind of laughable to think that Community of Christ somehow "politically correct' to Classical Christianity. It recognizes a living Prophet has it's President. It regularly canonizes new scripture (likely will add a new section to the D&C in a couple of months). It has the Book of Mormon as a canonized work of scripture. It utilizes the Inspired Version of the Bible. It ministers with the Melchizedek and Aaronic orders of PH. I am SO OFTEN struck by LDS members who offer incorrect items about the CoC. It is so consistent. "They have given up the BoM." "They ordained women to get into the World Council of Churches." "They are leaving their Mormon heritage to get money from the World Council of Churches." "They are about to sell the Kirtland Temple to the LDS." There is also a consistent misconception that they gave up all sorts of LDS notions and practices to become more like other Christians, even though nearly always the cited points were never a feature of the RLDS.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Both the main and 2nd floor have Melchizedek & Aaronic Priesthood pulpits at each end in Kirtland. While it is true that the Kirtland Endowment is now known as the washing and anointing, modern Mormon men need to have the Melchizedek Priesthood to receive the "Kirtland Endowment."
Gospel Tangents. My point is the Temple Rites associated with the Kirkland Temple are of the Aaronic Priesthood. Whereas the rites associated with the Nauvoo Temple are Melchizedek. Does the Church of Christ practice Melchizedek Rites?
I don't know how you are defining a Melchizedek or Aaronic rite. All LDS temple ordinances require males to have Melchizedek priesthood, even ones that originated in Kirtland. How do you define an Aaronic temple rite?
@@henochparks At the risk of greatly oversimplifying, and I apologize for it, Aaronic offices tend to be the everyday ministry in a congregation. Melchizedek Offices tend to be ministries relating to the Church as a whole. Community of Christ offers the sacraments at one's local congregation. The Temple functions as a pubic worship space for the Church as a whole as well as the headquarters. The Kirtland Temple has spaces at one end for Melchizedek officers to sit and the opposite side has places for Aaronic officers to sit. If memory serves the Nauvoo Temple was built the same way as well. I don't believe the reconstructed Temple in Nauvoo has that feature. I would have to sit and contemplate to see if my memory comes back of the assembly hall in Nauvoo.
I dont know but in my opinion not to offend or insult or anything like that but all the teachings in the BOM and the D&C that the Prophet Joseph Smith wrote and compare to all the explanation that was explained kind of dont connects the dots and lot of questioned that pop up in my mind and i dont know but as I ponder all the things that i read in the BOM and D&C compare to the answers they have said it's kind of you know dont answer it clearly but instead I feel that it's not an accurate answer just my opinion but have a nice day.
@@GospelTangents A sorry attempt at a joke. I keep hearing Locke and John, when you refer to them, and it makes me think of the philosopher. I'm trying to leave a comment on each video, even if it's a sorry attempt.
Grew up in the LDS church, visited a rods/coc a couple of times. Vast difference. Blew my mind that women has the priesthood. The LDS church seemed a bit backwards in time/political correctness. Not active in either.
I don't think a lot of people understand that priesthood holders only have the keys. Women play an equally important role in the priesthood without holding the keys.
Davis Claypool Running the Church of Jesus Christ is not a popularity contest and it doesn’t involve adopting fashion trends or worldly philosophies. The true Church of Christ is managed according to Christ’s directions, not a comma more, not a comma less and if He says that the Priesthood goes to men (for now) it will be done as He commands. From time to time the Lord will give revelations about changes He wants in his Church, as he did when He extended the Priesthood to all worthy males, regardless of race. The Gospel and the church restored through Joseph Smith is the Church and the same Gospel of Christ today as it was when Joseph was alive, Christ alone decided the doctrines and what changes will take place, not popular demand or the “enlightened” minds of pseudo inspired men. If you want to know which church is true all you have to do is ask God in prayer, just like Joseph and millions of other human beings have done.
Baptism for the Dead is one of the more nefarious doctrines in Mormonism. The Book of Mormon prophet-writers reject any notion of proxy ordinances. Jacob's masterful sermon in 2 Nephi 9 tells us those who never had the law or commandment to be baptized are rescued by virtue of the atonement. King Benjamin said Christ's blood atones for those who knew not the will of God concerning them. Mormon wrote to Moroni that baptism is for those who are under condemnation of having broken God's commandments. If there is no commandment, one cannot sin, has no need to repent, and baptism avails nothing. Joseph Smith was mostly ignorant of what the Book of Mormon actually taught.
Really interesting info! I enjoy John Hamer's lecture series online so it was nice to see him as one of your guests.
TH-cam recommended this second part of the this interview first so I'm going back to watch the first bit and then onward to listen to the rest.
I enjoy your channel very much!
Thanks! I hope you stick around for a long time!
Who started the garments? Do RLDS wear garments? Are they washed and anointed before garments are given?
Those are good questions. RLDS do not wear garments and do not practice either the initiatory or endowment ceremonies. I believe the garments were more of a Nauvoo innovation and RLDS generally reject Nauvoo theology.
What was the early endowment ceremony in the Nauvoo and Kirkland temples? ( Since JS hadn’t been exposed to Masonic rites until later.)
In Kirtland, it was only the initiatory ordinance that at the time they called "endowment."
Nauvoo is where Joseph received the Masonic ceremonies and introduced the endowment ceremony.
Rick it’s about experience and pleasure to watch and listen to your guests. I like it.
On Josephsmithpapers.org you can find the original source for the Kirtland Temple vision if you look in the journal for 1836. The original is written in third hand by Warren Cowdery, unlike the first hand account in DC 110. There's no record, as far as I'm aware, of Joseph or Oliver discussing or preaching about this vision. And in Oliver's final testimony he talks about seeing Moroni, Peter James and John, but no mention of the Kirtland Temple vision.
Very interesting info! Thanks!
Great interview! I enjoyed John Hamer's visuals.
John is awesome!!!
My entire family comprised most of a RLDS church, they never called it a temple. As a little girl I remember them turning away black people from attending, I was very confused by that.
I was in my late teens when everyone started bickering and fighting over doctrine, it was not a good time. Suddenly we were not allowed to to talk to the family members that decided to allow women to be members of the priesthood. Some aunts, uncles and cousins held "church in their homes. Others moved to Independence and I was taught that was where everyone had to be to be saved. The graphic at 5:00 was the clearest picture I have of the whole turmoil of this "church". I left at age 15 and never went back. Now that both of my parents are gone I'm interested in why they believed in what they believed.
It sounds as though your parents were part of one of the "Restorationist Branches" which broke away from Community of Christ/RLDS. To oversimplify the "Conservatives" left the Church when Section 156 was added to the Doctrine & Covenants. Women's calls to priesthood accepted. The Temple being built. The end of the Smith dynasty. The main body of the church would be extremely unlikely to have turned away black people (at least in your lifetime). The Temple is the headquarters of the Church on the Tempe Lot in Independence Mo. It was built in the late 20th Century. It sounds as though your memories come from before the Temple was built. The Temple didn't conform to the style of the Kirtland or Nauvoo Temples which came before and that was another issue for those who left. Gathering to Zion is another trait that the Church has de-emphasized and that Restorationists are unhappy about. The Conservatives think people should gather to live near the "Centerplace of Zion" which is the Temple Lot. Community of Christ these days tends to emphasize that building Zion is to be done wherever you are and that leads to the Peaceable Kingdom of God.
If you get a Community of Christ version of the Doctrine & Covenants the latter sections give a very good idea of what the Church is like. In contrast the previous sections (up to 156) give a good idea of what the Conservatives vision of the church is.
Turned away black people. 😂😂🤣 stop lying geez
@@kitiowa I am new to Gospel Tangents. I met Laughlin Mackay when we got to tour the Kirtland Temple in 1998 and found him to be very knowledgeable about its history. I wanted to thank you for your responses. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and I'm learning a lot from your responses here. Thank you for the respect you show everyone!
@@xRhodie Thank you. I try to be respectful.
What does the R stand for?
I assume you are asking about the R in RLDS, right? The R stands for "Reorganized."
After Joseph Smith Jr died in 1844, there were about 9 claimants to lead the Church. Brigham Young took the largest group (LDS Church) west to Utah. Joseph III was about 12 years old at the time of his father's death, and obviously couldn't lead. He established the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on April 6, 1860. This group is the 2nd largest Restoration group.
Reorganize
The difference between the CoC temple and the LDS temple is that in the LDS temple, the temple ceremonies are like Masonic ceremonies. In fact they are so similar that a friend of mine who was a Mason and became a Mormon, all he could say was, they copied us!
Actually the masons copied christ's apostles and corrupted it.
But masonry is not a religious orginization.
The graphic at 5 minutes is great. Thanks John & Rick for sharing this.
Yes, thanks! I really appreciate John sharing that with me!
Yes Yes l see’s l
Did they switch to COMMUNITY to look more like Classical Christianity? The LDS is doing what Joseph critiqued about the Christian church - all were wrong. F? R? Political Correct LDS?
No, that is not it. Remember that the 1830 Church was originally simply called the Church of Christ, long before it became Church of the Latter Day Saints, and finally Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
So, Community of Christ was chosen because it is more similar to the original church name. (John Hamer has mentioned this in other interviews, but not this interview.)
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was just over the top for a title. Community encapsulated their focus on Zionic Principles. Kingdom of God, Zion, Church, Gathering, and Prophetic People are all concepts which can fit into the single word 'community'.
It is kind of laughable to think that Community of Christ somehow "politically correct' to Classical Christianity. It recognizes a living Prophet has it's President. It regularly canonizes new scripture (likely will add a new section to the D&C in a couple of months). It has the Book of Mormon as a canonized work of scripture. It utilizes the Inspired Version of the Bible. It ministers with the Melchizedek and Aaronic orders of PH.
I am SO OFTEN struck by LDS members who offer incorrect items about the CoC. It is so consistent. "They have given up the BoM." "They ordained women to get into the World Council of Churches." "They are leaving their Mormon heritage to get money from the World Council of Churches." "They are about to sell the Kirtland Temple to the LDS." There is also a consistent misconception that they gave up all sorts of LDS notions and practices to become more like other Christians, even though nearly always the cited points were never a feature of the RLDS.
Was not Kirkland an Aaronic Temple whereas Nauvoo was a Melchizedek Temple?
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Both the main and 2nd floor have Melchizedek & Aaronic Priesthood pulpits at each end in Kirtland.
While it is true that the Kirtland Endowment is now known as the washing and anointing, modern Mormon men need to have the Melchizedek Priesthood to receive the "Kirtland Endowment."
Gospel Tangents. My point is the Temple Rites associated with the Kirkland Temple are of the Aaronic Priesthood. Whereas the rites associated with the Nauvoo Temple are Melchizedek. Does the Church of Christ practice Melchizedek Rites?
I don't know how you are defining a Melchizedek or Aaronic rite. All LDS temple ordinances require males to have Melchizedek priesthood, even ones that originated in Kirtland. How do you define an Aaronic temple rite?
@@henochparks At the risk of greatly oversimplifying, and I apologize for it, Aaronic offices tend to be the everyday ministry in a congregation. Melchizedek Offices tend to be ministries relating to the Church as a whole. Community of Christ offers the sacraments at one's local congregation. The Temple functions as a pubic worship space for the Church as a whole as well as the headquarters.
The Kirtland Temple has spaces at one end for Melchizedek officers to sit and the opposite side has places for Aaronic officers to sit. If memory serves the Nauvoo Temple was built the same way as well. I don't believe the reconstructed Temple in Nauvoo has that feature. I would have to sit and contemplate to see if my memory comes back of the assembly hall in Nauvoo.
@@kitiowa I mean the purposes of the rites done in the temples are different
Lachlan MacKay looks a lot like ‘Wallace’ (William Thompson), of the Wallace and Ladmo show.
So does your momma Grace, your momma....
I dont know but in my opinion not to offend or insult or anything like that but all the teachings in the BOM and the D&C that the Prophet Joseph Smith wrote and compare to all the explanation that was explained kind of dont connects the dots and lot of questioned that pop up in my mind and i dont know but as I ponder all the things that i read in the BOM and D&C compare to the answers they have said it's kind of you know dont answer it clearly but instead I feel that it's not an accurate answer just my opinion but have a nice day.
Can you just call them John Locke?
I don't understand what you mean.
@@GospelTangents A sorry attempt at a joke. I keep hearing Locke and John, when you refer to them, and it makes me think of the philosopher. I'm trying to leave a comment on each video, even if it's a sorry attempt.
@@quemaspana I get it now. Sorry I'm slow! :)
Grew up in the LDS church, visited a rods/coc a couple of times. Vast difference. Blew my mind that women has the priesthood. The LDS church seemed a bit backwards in time/political correctness. Not active in either.
I don't think a lot of people understand that priesthood holders only have the keys. Women play an equally important role in the priesthood without holding the keys.
Davis Claypool
Running the Church of Jesus Christ is not a popularity contest and it doesn’t involve adopting fashion trends or worldly philosophies. The true Church of Christ is managed according to Christ’s directions, not a comma more, not a comma less and if He says that the Priesthood goes to men (for now) it will be done as He commands.
From time to time the Lord will give revelations about changes He wants in his Church, as he did when He extended the Priesthood to all worthy males, regardless of race. The Gospel and the church restored through Joseph Smith is the Church and the same Gospel of Christ today as it was when Joseph was alive, Christ alone decided the doctrines and what changes will take place, not popular demand or the “enlightened” minds of pseudo inspired men.
If you want to know which church is true all you have to do is ask God in prayer, just like Joseph and millions of other human beings have done.
The Lord didnt institute the priesthood ban, brigham did@horsewithnoname8795
@@julialuannaindeed. Different but equal
G-d is constant ... silly to follow man-conceived politics.
Baptism for the Dead is one of the more nefarious doctrines in Mormonism. The Book of Mormon prophet-writers reject any notion of proxy ordinances. Jacob's masterful sermon in 2 Nephi 9 tells us those who never had the law or commandment to be baptized are rescued by virtue of the atonement. King Benjamin said Christ's blood atones for those who knew not the will of God concerning them. Mormon wrote to Moroni that baptism is for those who are under condemnation of having broken God's commandments. If there is no commandment, one cannot sin, has no need to repent, and baptism avails nothing.
Joseph Smith was mostly ignorant of what the Book of Mormon actually taught.
1 corinthians chapter 15 vs 29, any idea why Paul is wasting his time speaking of Baptism for the dead?
ridiculous, anyone can go into Lds temples just go before they consecrate it dah, lol tell the truth, hahahah
If you are going to troll, I will not approve future comments.
bobbyc, I knew a Mormon lady who smoked, and said she could go into any temple. Not without lying.
@@keepitsimple4629 that is considered malpractice and is not sustained of the church
Don’t be a jerk dude. The CoC is very accepting to ppl & don’t shun anyone. They don’t oppress like the LDS does.