George Hotz on his time working at Twitter | Lex Fridman Podcast Clips
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
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GUEST BIO:
George Hotz is a programmer, hacker, and the founder of comma-ai and tiny corp.
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Full podcast episode: th-cam.com/video/dNrTrx42DGQ/w-d-xo.html
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Guest bio: George Hotz is a programmer, hacker, and the founder of comma-ai and tiny corp.
MORE I.T. ppl Clownz. 8500.
When I was a coder it was about simplicity, speed, effectiveness, and reliability, now it mirrors the messiness of the human environment, essentially putting out the latest forest fire. At one time we were trying to make computers better versions of ourselves, within a confined area of expertise, now we are trying to make them replicas - love Lex Friedman:
"If there's two evils in the world, it's centralization and complexity." Words of wisdom right there. As an SDE at a large software company, I appreciate how difficult it is to run a platform team well. There are too many examples of how centralization incentivizes empire building and slows partner teams down, which defeats the purpose of having a centralized team in the first place.
BS
It's a contradiction
First he says "centralization and complexity" is bad, then he says he would prefer dictatorship.
Bruh.
Intelligence should be used to simplify the world. It simplifies physical labor and it should simplify intellectual labor. It did so with computers. Increasing complexity unnecessarily is an abomination.
@@ukaszwolenczak5590 A dictatorship can be less centralized and it's definitely simpler. China and ancient Rome may have had dictators but due to their size they were mostly administered by local governors. He said himself there will always be political wrangling and you will get an oligarchy or a monarchy. Monarchies can distribute power more confidently because there isn't a constant anxiety inducing struggle for influence. But really just accept that George Hotz is far smarter than you and if you think you found a flaw in his thinking you're probably wrong.
4:34 The moment Lex knew I was watching this while eating popcorn in my underwear.
Hahaha the moment he saw my pooping face
It's interesting, because I would never class myself as great as a programmer as George in any lifetime. But as a software engineer who has been able to be dropped into any software project in my career (and there's been some damn big ones), I've also held my own and been able to improve things and change the direction of the project from a failure to a success. It's quite interesting because George mentions that he realised over the last couple of years that tests where a good measure of assurance - but to me that's obvious, that's what they're there for. That's why Test Driven Development is such a big thing in our industry. And I've done a couple of talks over the years and the more I realise about writing software, is that the real great coders, all these competitive coders that are within top 10 of all advent of code competitions or HackerRank, or LeetCode, hardly any of them can actually write a piece of code that someone else can understand.
People love adding complexity because it makes them feel smart. I always say, if you think you were smart when you wrote it, you have to be twice as smart when you try to debug it.
It really puts it into perspective for me listening to George, because although he can write an insanely performant code and has technical knowledge like hardly anyone else, I probably wouldn't want him as a technical lead on a large software project, because all of that great technical knowledge is a sacrafice for knowing the ways of working and best practises of how to deliver applications successfully and at scale. Because on large software projects, the simpler the code, the more successful it is.
Being a great programmer, is not the same as being a great software engineer.
I couldn't agree more. I came out of school with the same mentality as people like Hotz. This idea that if you can write code efficiently enough, or know enough sorting algorithms, you can do anything all on your own.
After years in industry, you learn that REAL productivity in software, comes from writing things so that someone else can understand it easily. Even if you're the only one working on it, the you 2 weeks from now isn't going to have the complete understanding of the problem that you do right now.
Understandable, testable, re-usable code is ESSENTIAL to moving quickly and effectively in software engineering. Everything else that the LeetCoders of the world prioritize is just a means to an end. If you write the coolest, fastest, piece of code ever, but only you can understand it or debug it, then be prepared to be forced to do so for the rest of your career, and be permanently slowed by your poor priorities.
You should write such long letters to your mama
What are you talking about? He was highlighting the complete lack of tests at twitter.
He was literally saying though that code should be as simple as possible and that he is against complexity.
@@DarkPhantomSky Sure, but he is still at the technical level. He also said in the video that he's come to realise how important tests are and were shocked at how Twitter had a massive lack of them - I learnt that year 1 of developing real-time production systems. Programmers are great at making programs. Enterprise business software is a whole different ballgame and goes well beyond technical knowledge of how to reverse a list in Java/C++. Like I said, I would trust George to make a service that did something really complex, but I wouldn't put him in a position where he had to technically oversee the refactoring of an entire company software estate. At that level you have to know exactly what level testing is performed at, the different types of testing, the implementation of security practises into the whole SDLC, the enabling of developers by building accelerated platforms, cultural ways of working that best allow for correct ADR's, tracking the 4 types of work... the list is endless
I like George but his naivety towards dictatorship and the slippery slope that comes with it is saddening. Once a dictatorship is established it becomes uncontrollable. It’s the opposite of decentralization. I can’t believe Lex let’s him get away with it.
every interview for at least some moments it seems that Lex is interviewing himself asking a question and answering in a very personal level and giving his own opinions lol
The problem with programming is that a good engineer code quality is directly proportional to the level of understanding of the problem the code solves. Understanding takes time. Companies and programmer rely on boiler plate solutions in order to reduce time at the cost of code quality. That is the mistake.
13:15 "how do you incentivize a good codebase?"
The owners and execs have to care about the codebase. They don't, is the problem. They care about sales, turnover and big deal signings and none of those on their own require a good codebase.
On the other hand, to give George due credit re: his paygrade- he earned maybe $20 Billion more than Elon while at Twitter 😮💨
put a bunch of MBA in charge of a highly technical product and you will have metrics like promotion based on the number of line of code you write. This was the problem with Twitter and is still the problem in most large corporations. The leaders do not know how the products work and it translates downward from there.
I think an ad blocker is probably better understood and stated at what it actually, simply is: an ad blocker. Lol. It obscures information, but not in the same spirit as censorship.
Describing an ad blocker as censorship is just brain dead.
The *point* of censorship is that the reader isn’t in control of what gets filtered.
@@theondono Then you don't understand the word censorship at it's most basic level.
@@spenceflatulence Yeah sure, except the dictionaries agree with me.
Choosing what you don't want to see isn't censorship, it's just free choice.
@@theondono exactly. censorship would be blocking everyone from exposure to an ad. I'm a geohotz fan but this argument is a let down
“If engaging is what wins, it’s harder to keep more nuanced values…” that’s one of the most insightful things I’ve heard from Hotz.
Not sure if George is an imposter or not...I mean for sure he's smart but sometimes I have the impression he does not deliver.
26:00 Fascinating point to make about dictators and how that power is often given.
I feel like George should read up on history regarding dictatorships and monarchies 😅
Irony at Twitter being down.. for 6 hours straight
We programmers love to refactor, is always good to work in an elegant codebase, but the real problem is how to do that while making a profit and that's exactly what they discussed at around 23:00, which I completely agree with, the managers should decide if this is the best approach for the business or not, which is the hardest decision IMO.
Does Hotz have experience running a social network at the scale of twitter? He seems very arrogant thinking he could just step in and have better ideas than the people who actually built it
I have experience running a pretty big ad network for retailers (15Bn ads a month). I could probably write one myself that uses less compute
Replace Hotz in your comment with Musk.
Best 27 minutes I've ever heard on TH-cam
Really?
Wow.. Had no idea George was so awesome. Off to the full interview.
If George is Junior Software Engineer, what does this leave us?
Noobs 😂
Man John carmack I respect way more because of his Twitter .
The fastest lap does not measure a 24h race 😉
Calls centralization an evil, then says he would be ok with a benevolent dictatorship. Read a little history or philosophy pal.
Good luck with a social network that filters out ad hominem. If it happens, it will be subscription only. The other problem with that is that the reason we like lots of great comedy is that it combines ad hominem with logic. So basically you’d have to sort out what is “comedy” and what is not. We are nowhere near AGI like that.
Loved this, especially the last two minutes.
A literal call for dictatorship? Sure buddy.
I'd choose a Musk monarchy over the US oligarchy in a heartbeat
pretty sure getting interviewed by lex is good blind run at being a perp in a police investigation
Is the desire to find disagreement and try to point it out a simple evolutionary group adaptation to weed out those who differ and to promote conformity for groups to consist of like minded people to operate better and in turn increase survivability? Or is disagreement itself evolutionarily beneficial as a way to discuss all possible options of operation and come up with the best one by arguing?
I just love this genius, brilliant, wonderful Hotz man.
At 1:58 Lex seemed outraged in his mind.
Refactoring a code base with its history can often become a political process, akin to telling someone their creation is flawed, which can be sensitive and challenging. :)
Harsh truths at the end of this conversation
Hotz you dont get mocked because other people havent mtried redoing a complex project. You get mocked because you believe the technical details is all there is to a problem like Autonomous Driving, that’s why youre made into a joke.😊
99% of all the negativity in the world is driven by envy, resentment and bitterness at the success of others. A lack of appreciation and gratitude is at the core. To be in the highest 1% of earners globally, you need to earn $30,000 per year. And yet, most people in the G7 feel they are suffering from inequality.
And then some corrupt politicians own whole buildings/BLOCKS IN CITIES...
Well they are, because 30k in Nigeria is not the same as 30k in America. With that said, I don’t think ppl give a shit about inequality. I think they care only about their standard of living. Ppl don’t rebel because there’s super rich ppl. They rebel because there’s super rich ppl *while they’re starving*.
70% of people on food stamps in America work full time.
The relative poverty of other nations does not negate that fact.
You can throw out numbers all you want, but most people are one paycheck away from being homeless.
I'm willing to bet you're one of those that had the $100,000 head start from your parents (college + car)
The average house in America cost 7x the average salary.
50 years ago it was only 2x
That means housing relative to wages has quadrupled. But yeah we are doing so well....
"Technical leadership you trust"
* spits out coffee *
I long for a job in which my managers are better, more intuitively correct programmers than the people they manage (and me).
"If there's two evils in the world, it's centralization and complexity." 10 minutes later: "I prefer dictatorship over the oligarchy." Nice
People didn't like your arrogance, trying to flex instead of just getting a job done with an existing team. You can be the best dev in the world but nobody wants to work with a huge ego.
Couldn't we just make government more efficient rather than having a Caesar? What come after the benevolent leader? My mind goes to
the extreme such as North Korea. I feel the two party system is extremely important. Like two side of the brain, to keep each other in check. To bring balance.
The only one party system in the future will be AI.
The are the same, they are bought by corporations
@@frankjamesbonarrigo7162 Okay, thank you
Fuck dictatorships in all their forms. Democratize all the things.
great conversation
Complexity isn’t evil it’s just the inherent nature of reality. Self interested folks always love making things work best for them regardless of the cost, but true lovers of law and justice or science or philosophy love complexity because it feels closer to reality or “the truth”.
That’s only when it’s necessary; to allow some edge cases as not everything is absolute or at most a close approximate at different levels of reality
Who cares about freedom when we can have a dictatorship for lower costs? What twisted logic at the end. Like Musk is not an oligarch. Give me a break.
"100,000 followers when that mattered" this dude loves the smell of his own farts
They’re actually not bad
@@DelgaDude We know why he said it the point is that it is sad that his insecurity makes him need to say his 100k "matters more". It doesn't change the point of the story at all, it is just showboating and immature. IMO it speaks to his personality.
twitter gave us bootstrap lol
George is both incredibly intelligent and naive at the same time. I see this trend with hyper-intelligent people all the time, their intelligence makes them so arrogant that they are unable to fully think through their ideas resulting in them falling short all the time. He's either incredibly naive to believe that the world would be better under an Elon dictatorship or likely is supporting Elon because he can advance his position using him. Both approaches are deplorable and the world needs better smart people.
The world would definitely be a better place with Elon on the wheel. If however by "world" you mean "USA" then it's debatable..
@@BillyViBritannia I'm not going to get into a debate about this but do your research on Elon Musk on how he acquired his companies, what they actually do and how he accumulates wealth. If you're unbiased, you'll come to conclusion that he is no different from anyone else in that he is entirely self serving. The dangerous thing is that he's convinced Western society that he is different when really he isn't and its very easy to tell. It speaks more to how deranged and disconnected from intellectual thought Western society has become that someone like Elon is taken seriously.
@@sssf55 You misunderstood, I agree with you. But I would choose a global united state ruled by Elon over the current warring nations.
@@BillyViBritannia My apologies, I misunderstood. However, I'm not sure if that is going to be much better. I know our current situation is terrible but the world is very complex and I just don't see a system like that working either.
@@sssf55 I think his ego is big enough that he would want to be remembered in history as the savior of humanity, the greatest of all kings etc ... and he's enough of a hustler to actually work for it.
You can tell that Hotz is deeply empathetic. Everything he is saying is what I am doing philosophically with my solar company. I left SolarCity before the Tesla acquisition to solve the problems that make energy expensive and difficult to scale
I have watched several of your videos with George Hotz. He is not a pleasant person to watch or hear speak. I was a senior manager for database marketing at Amex for 14 years and wrote a lot of code. I was asked to train other programmers to code the way I did which was a deep departure from what they were taught in school. I was a high school drop out who taught himself to code. If he came in to interview with me for a job I would never hire him.
Why would you judge a coder from the way he looks or speaks?
It's not like he was being disrespectful or anything...
@@BillyViBritannia - There is a social aspect to a work environment. I would want people who other workers want to work with as well as being talented. The work pool is large enough to find people who are good at what they do and feel comfortable to the rest of the work pool. Happy employees are more productive and creative.
Yeah but he hacked ps3 as 1st and U probably didn't...
@@SJ-eu7em - SO? Save your 'what aboutism' for someone who cares about such trivial argumentation.
@@SJ-eu7em - So? Save your "what aboutism" for someone who cares about such trivial argumentation. "What about" what you have done that no one else has accomplished?
LOVE YOU LEX
I couldn't figure out why I hate this guy and it was just based on his face but now I know he worked at Twitter so I guess it makes sense
He worked there for like two weeks though
Twitter needs Domain Driven Design. All the simplity get's pulled out of those event storming workshops
WoW a lot to think about 🥇
Lex is not a developer. OOPS is in place because its centered around building for scale, to avoid redundancy and protect against breaking stuff with changes.
Maybe 20 years ago that was true
Why…
Just wondering if Twitter Ai is going on Demon Mode.
This guy genuinly does not give a fu*k
Nice one. When I see famous people doing TH-cam, I feel like they are just like us.
He’s smart but arrogant
The bluesky algorithms are way better.
I want a NON-PARTICIPATION, Participation trophy 🏆. Winning! I refuse Twitter, yet here i am, in the comment section.
lex is one of the biggest elon simps that i've ever seen :D
Sounds like lex has an agenda. He loves his Twitter.
he loves his Elon*
@@StfuSiriusly what not to LOVE?!
Hey Lex: Perl is ghetto? Dude, you're showing your immaturity...AGAIN. Stop, just stop.
Nostr
George probably gets hated unfairly, but I couldn't make it through half the video.
He comes over as very arrogant and umpleasant. I can't listen to him.
His face reminds me of Greta Thunberg
George is a GOAT.
This guy George is comparing himself to Elon Musk...... interesting.
This guy George was a former hacker recognised by the Anonymous group. So much so that the international hacker community came in support of him when Sony decided to sue him.
Clearly you don't know this guy's history.
"you should probably have tools that maximize the quality of the experience to individuals"
th-cam.com/video/rJg0hAKtzt8/w-d-xo.html
Why is is so hard to provide an effective filtering tool for google, etc???
The Internet would be such a better place if we could all control that.
I suspect I can't fine tune my feed, for example, because "slots" are sold, not algorithm-neutral. And God knows better
It probably wouldn't. People don't select for reality, they select for engagement. We all already could just watch TH-cam on incognito or something and see totally bland, uncurated content, but we don't want that. We watch the snacky crap that holds our attention instead.
@19:52 mozilla-rr/perf_events to replay processes are mature, but doesnt support multithreaded well