"manufacturer tells you it's not designed for belay,' "PROS DO IT! LETS GO!" *Bad things happened* Use an actual belay device, as designed by the manufacturer.
Thanks for sharing, it is valuable to hear about failures in real climbing. I guess the real lesson is that manufacturers know the limitations of their devices better than most pro climbers. Trust the manual, not hear-say. The RollNLock is great for the use case it was designed for.
I agree I changed the title of the video so it doesn't refer to this as a failure, but the specific rule in the manual that would've prevented this (figure 10.8 & 10.7) can be easily overlooked and isn't an issue for the Mirco Traxion. I talk about this a little more in-depth in the description.
How can it be overlooked when the manufacturer specifically states how not to use it? This video did nothing other than prove you don’t climb safely and follow other people’s poor examples.
People that say they wouldn't use a progress capture pulley for belaying forget that it is often used exactly for this in rescue hauling. Also the microtraxion is ok to use for toprope belay on easy terrain according to Petzl.
The same thing has been reported to have happened with the Micro Traxion. I use mine for top rope soloing, but I filed off the catch to prevent it from locking in the open position.
I feel like the Micro Traxion is overall a bit less prone to this issue. Not sure if you've heard but the new Petzl Nano Traxion won't come with any locking mechanism by default which will definitely make it safer but at the sacrifice of some versatility. I can see it being perfect for TR soloing.
@@JustinWallace multiple years of using both that's not my experience but then I've never used it for belaying. I've never had the RnL unlock on me while top rope soloing. but I've had the Microtraxion both lock and unlock multiple times with 10mm or larger ropes. (that's the reason for using a backup). I still use the MT but with the lock nub ground off. While I use both for TRS, I would never-ever use either for normal belaying... YMMV.
There is a recall on some of these. Also there is a video here on TH-cam to test and see if you have one of the defective units. It's also on their website
You went from one mistake and are trying to go next , use a belay devices and if your going to put anybody on a roll n lock make sure it's yourself, your looking to get somebody hurt doing stupid shit like that . STOP IT
This device does what it was designed for. I suggest you keep both of your feet on the ground, or climb alone where no one else has to trust you. Take a course in safety measures and learn to respect your equipment before attempting to climb with others again.
This is why I use a RollNLock on one rope and a MicroTrax on the other for TR solo. I would never use either to belay a human being tho, especially without a friction hitch or munter backup but at that point just use a real belay device or munter on the anchor. That is terrifying.
Would never use an RnL for a top belay (it’s a device that should be used with a backup always) but this video is useful as I have used it as a haul device and it’s pretty alarming how easy it was to jam in pulley mode…
Fatal accidents happen due to missing partner check. One check is to inspect the belay device. Well it would be good to actually use a belay device. All folks professional climbers are good at climbing and professional instructors are good at risk management. Stay save and enjoy the Rock
good for you to notice this, and explain what happened. Great job. Your excel spreadsheet states it must be "free hanging" to operate correctly. I guess that's true!
Thanks for sharing! I think this might possibly be one of the faulty rollnlock devices they put an advisory out on, they have resolved this issue if I am correct
Might be better to know the limitations of your belayer. How about not going against manufacturer's recommendations?! Don't blame the product for your mishandling of it. I'm glad no one was hurt!
Do people really use a RollNLock (or Micro Traxion) this way? I have never, ever seen someone use them in this manner as a 'belay from the top' device. Why would you? When using the RollNLock for TR solo, or progress capture when simul-climbing -- which are the common climbing usages -- the failure mode you show here is not possible. The rope can only wrap around like that if using the device for a genuinely odd purpose.
Haha I'd love to see it. You are not wrong I do agree there are some obvious safety concerns with belaying a follower with a toothed PCD and I have since been avoiding situations where I would need to do this. There are some situations though such as simul-climbing where you don't have much of an option and it may seem logical to use a toothed device in the same orientation as I was using in this video. My question is when using a toothed PCD in this orientation just how dangerous really is it. What are the exact limitations? When should it be ok and when shouldn't it be? There seem to be a lot of unknowns which makes it a topic of interest for me and hopefully the gear manufacturers too. It's always easier to say "Yer gunna die!!!" and stick to old proven ways, but in order for any sport to advance new and sometimes potentially unorthodox methods deserve to be looked into. I'm always open to productive civil debates on such topics so feel free to reach out.
Thank you for sharing this. Totally important to take your time and understand the limitations of our gear and also the dangers and possibilities that may arise when not using the device perfectly. It’s also only rated for 4kn so a good fall on this guy from like 10ft or so would easily break it. But who is putting themself in a position like that? So are you the fellow who caused them to put out a “defective product” warning in November of 2021? Yours is one of the defective ones that lock like that, otherwise it would flip back into place and not loose it’s rope grab ability.
"Plenty of 'Professional' climbers" - what is a "Pro climber?" Guides I seriously doubt, as their protocols are quite specific; sponsored climbers do all sorts of sketchy things, but using autolocking pulleys as a sole belay is likely not one. Self-belaying on toprope while working pitches has become common practice, but the folks I know never use one device alone. I have fallen back on the Munter, favored in some European areas for its ease, simplicity, and unique trait of being able to catch serious falls only locking devices aka Gri gri types can catch. ATC guide mode is an unnecessary complication where giving slack under tension has dropped too many seconds to keep track of - so why bother? Really, a problem with YT videos is there is no filter or qualifier, differentiating between seasoned, experienced expert advice, and the average techie infatuated with gizmos. Bad advice from authoritative-sounding actors is rampant, and may get someone injured or worse. In 54 years I've stayed alive, while far stronger friends have died from preventable mistakes. Overconfidence kills; triple check everything, and find partners willing to do the same.
Not sure if I have my devices mixed up, but I think the rope is supposed to go through the carabiner so the weight gets put onto the carabiner instead of just the device. This would have flipped things around a bit and the rope wouldn’t have been in a spot to flip the switch.
Good observation but I'm using a rollNlock and for that specific device you don't have to do that. If I was using lets say a kong duck, rope man, Beal tract up ... then I would need to do that. The only small pcd I know that can be used in this orientation are the RollNlock, edelrid spoc, micro traxion, and the up and coming nano traction.
Why are you using the Roll-n-Lock for belaying up a follower anyway? This is a terrible idea and adds no benefit. Never heard of a pro doing this either. It is used for SELF belay or as a progress capture pulley.
Ir you doing that movement, os normal that the rollnlock fail. Who is the stupid that do this repetivemove ments eh en climb? No one. Your test fail in the conception.
I agree those are both safer options. At the time I didn't have a device capable of belaying from above and I prefer not to use a munter as it kinks up the rope. I'm not gonna sit here and argue that belaying from above with a toothed device is safe because I'm fully aware it has many obvious pit falls and it is not a tried and true proven method. Though, I do feel that it is a topic that deserves more attention because to me there is not an obvious answer to the debate about just how safe or dangerous really are these devices when used in this way. Why is it accepted by many to use PCDs with teeth while simul climbing, but as soon as someone is there tending the device in the same orientation it becomes a "Yer gunna die!!!" situation. I know of several very intelligent climbers (one of them being a product design engineer at black diamond) that will use devices like these exactly the way I was. I currently don't have the resources to do my own study on this topic as I'm just a broke college student, but in the future it is something I hope to do. In the meantime I'm always open to a productive and civil debates on the topic. I'm happy to talk so if you wanna reach out lemme know.
@@JustinWallace maybe because if you do simul climbing yer gunna die anyway so details don't matter. It's like how it is acceptable to belay without holding the rope before the climber reaches the first bolt, but unacceptable afterwards😋
"manufacturer tells you it's not designed for belay,' "PROS DO IT! LETS GO!" *Bad things happened* Use an actual belay device, as designed by the manufacturer.
I see a lot of “pros” using a grigri actually
Thanks for sharing, it is valuable to hear about failures in real climbing. I guess the real lesson is that manufacturers know the limitations of their devices better than most pro climbers. Trust the manual, not hear-say. The RollNLock is great for the use case it was designed for.
It's not an equipment failure when you use something in a way the manufacturer specifically says not to. Use the device as intended
I agree I changed the title of the video so it doesn't refer to this as a failure, but the specific rule in the manual that would've prevented this (figure 10.8 & 10.7) can be easily overlooked and isn't an issue for the Mirco Traxion. I talk about this a little more in-depth in the description.
How can it be overlooked when the manufacturer specifically states how not to use it?
This video did nothing other than prove you don’t climb safely and follow other people’s poor examples.
People that say they wouldn't use a progress capture pulley for belaying forget that it is often used exactly for this in rescue hauling. Also the microtraxion is ok to use for toprope belay on easy terrain according to Petzl.
The same thing has been reported to have happened with the Micro Traxion. I use mine for top rope soloing, but I filed off the catch to prevent it from locking in the open position.
I feel like the Micro Traxion is overall a bit less prone to this issue. Not sure if you've heard but the new Petzl Nano Traxion won't come with any locking mechanism by default which will definitely make it safer but at the sacrifice of some versatility. I can see it being perfect for TR soloing.
@@JustinWallace multiple years of using both that's not my experience but then I've never used it for belaying. I've never had the RnL unlock on me while top rope soloing. but I've had the Microtraxion both lock and unlock multiple times with 10mm or larger ropes. (that's the reason for using a backup). I still use the MT but with the lock nub ground off. While I use both for TRS, I would never-ever use either for normal belaying... YMMV.
There is a recall on some of these. Also there is a video here on TH-cam to test and see if you have one of the defective units. It's also on their website
You went from one mistake and are trying to go next , use a belay devices and if your going to put anybody on a roll n lock make sure it's yourself, your looking to get somebody hurt doing stupid shit like that . STOP IT
This device does what it was designed for. I suggest you keep both of your feet on the ground, or climb alone where no one else has to trust you. Take a course in safety measures and learn to respect your equipment before attempting to climb with others again.
This is why I use a RollNLock on one rope and a MicroTrax on the other for TR solo. I would never use either to belay a human being tho, especially without a friction hitch or munter backup but at that point just use a real belay device or munter on the anchor. That is terrifying.
Sorry buddy but there is no reason to be using this as a belay device. There are better & safer devices.
Be safe & use equipment as intended.
Could this happen while hauling..potentially, hence relevant
@@largeformatlandscape Seems like it could, but the RnL is really not great for hauling. It drops too much rope each time it engages.
@@johnliungman1333 The point is that someone could be using it for such a purpose and are better knowing its limitations
@@largeformatlandscape good point!
Would never use an RnL for a top belay (it’s a device that should be used with a backup always) but this video is useful as I have used it as a haul device and it’s pretty alarming how easy it was to jam in pulley mode…
Fatal accidents happen due to missing partner check. One check is to inspect the belay device. Well it would be good to actually use a belay device. All folks professional climbers are good at climbing and professional instructors are good at risk management. Stay save and enjoy the Rock
CT official alert: www.climbingtechnology.com/en/alerts/02-november-2021-rollnlock
Tech never beats knowledge. Learn yer gear, everyone!
That said, I use a shunt for top rope....
Good one @Justin! Thanks!
good for you to notice this, and explain what happened. Great job. Your excel spreadsheet states it must be "free hanging" to operate correctly. I guess that's true!
Thanks for sharing! I think this might possibly be one of the faulty rollnlock devices they put an advisory out on, they have resolved this issue if I am correct
Lessons learned should be, don’t use a capture pulley as a belay device
If You don't want to use it in pulley mode just modify it. I have 2 of those, use it in TRS, its not intended for this purpose either.
Thanks for the post. Good to know.
Glad to help
Might be better to know the limitations of your belayer. How about not going against manufacturer's recommendations?! Don't blame the product for your mishandling of it. I'm glad no one was hurt!
That is alarming that it happened so easily. Do you ever use the device at your belay loop or on an extension to your chest as most people do for TRS?
I have used the RnL at my belay loop and have not had any issues with it in that orientation.
Can also happen with micro traction, be carefull that’s why manufacturer says no:-)
What configuration was this in? Were you belaying from above?
Ya, I was belaying my follower from above. Had the RnL clipped directly into the rap ring like shown in the video.
@@JustinWallace What was the reason? Why not a proper belay device that can be released under load?
That’s terrifying
Do people really use a RollNLock (or Micro Traxion) this way? I have never, ever seen someone use them in this manner as a 'belay from the top' device. Why would you? When using the RollNLock for TR solo, or progress capture when simul-climbing -- which are the common climbing usages -- the failure mode you show here is not possible. The rope can only wrap around like that if using the device for a genuinely odd purpose.
I was using my roll n’ lock as a belay device....
Welcome to the climbing cringe series my friend
Haha I'd love to see it. You are not wrong I do agree there are some obvious safety concerns with belaying a follower with a toothed PCD and I have since been avoiding situations where I would need to do this. There are some situations though such as simul-climbing where you don't have much of an option and it may seem logical to use a toothed device in the same orientation as I was using in this video. My question is when using a toothed PCD in this orientation just how dangerous really is it. What are the exact limitations? When should it be ok and when shouldn't it be? There seem to be a lot of unknowns which makes it a topic of interest for me and hopefully the gear manufacturers too. It's always easier to say "Yer gunna die!!!" and stick to old proven ways, but in order for any sport to advance new and sometimes potentially unorthodox methods deserve to be looked into. I'm always open to productive civil debates on such topics so feel free to reach out.
Thank you for sharing this.
Totally important to take your time and understand the limitations of our gear and also the dangers and possibilities that may arise when not using the device perfectly.
It’s also only rated for 4kn so a good fall on this guy from like 10ft or so would easily break it. But who is putting themself in a position like that?
So are you the fellow who caused them to put out a “defective product” warning in November of 2021?
Yours is one of the defective ones that lock like that, otherwise it would flip back into place and not loose it’s rope grab ability.
"Plenty of 'Professional' climbers" - what is a "Pro climber?" Guides I seriously doubt, as their protocols are quite specific; sponsored climbers do all sorts of sketchy things, but using autolocking pulleys as a sole belay is likely not one. Self-belaying on toprope while working pitches has become common practice, but the folks I know never use one device alone. I have fallen back on the Munter, favored in some European areas for its ease, simplicity, and unique trait of being able to catch serious falls only locking devices aka Gri gri types can catch. ATC guide mode is an unnecessary complication where giving slack under tension has dropped too many seconds to keep track of - so why bother? Really, a problem with YT videos is there is no filter or qualifier, differentiating between seasoned, experienced expert advice, and the average techie infatuated with gizmos. Bad advice from authoritative-sounding actors is rampant, and may get someone injured or worse. In 54 years I've stayed alive, while far stronger friends have died from preventable mistakes. Overconfidence kills; triple check everything, and find partners willing to do the same.
If the manufacturer says don't do it please don't do it. Why you decided to use that RnL device in that way is a mistery...
Not sure if I have my devices mixed up, but I think the rope is supposed to go through the carabiner so the weight gets put onto the carabiner instead of just the device. This would have flipped things around a bit and the rope wouldn’t have been in a spot to flip the switch.
Good observation but I'm using a rollNlock and for that specific device you don't have to do that. If I was using lets say a kong duck, rope man, Beal tract up ... then I would need to do that. The only small pcd I know that can be used in this orientation are the RollNlock, edelrid spoc, micro traxion, and the up and coming nano traction.
Why are you using the Roll-n-Lock for belaying up a follower anyway? This is a terrible idea and adds no benefit. Never heard of a pro doing this either. It is used for SELF belay or as a progress capture pulley.
Ir you doing that movement, os normal that the rollnlock fail.
Who is the stupid that do this repetivemove ments eh en climb?
No one.
Your test fail in the conception.
Why why why not just clip a normal belay device or use a munter...
I agree those are both safer options. At the time I didn't have a device capable of belaying from above and I prefer not to use a munter as it kinks up the rope. I'm not gonna sit here and argue that belaying from above with a toothed device is safe because I'm fully aware it has many obvious pit falls and it is not a tried and true proven method. Though, I do feel that it is a topic that deserves more attention because to me there is not an obvious answer to the debate about just how safe or dangerous really are these devices when used in this way. Why is it accepted by many to use PCDs with teeth while simul climbing, but as soon as someone is there tending the device in the same orientation it becomes a "Yer gunna die!!!" situation. I know of several very intelligent climbers (one of them being a product design engineer at black diamond) that will use devices like these exactly the way I was. I currently don't have the resources to do my own study on this topic as I'm just a broke college student, but in the future it is something I hope to do. In the meantime I'm always open to a productive and civil debates on the topic. I'm happy to talk so if you wanna reach out lemme know.
@@JustinWallace maybe because if you do simul climbing yer gunna die anyway so details don't matter. It's like how it is acceptable to belay without holding the rope before the climber reaches the first bolt, but unacceptable afterwards😋