42 and 41 at first doesn‘t sound much... but in reality, that is an insane death toll for one single battle, especially Gimli, all in close combat! Together, 2 (non-)humans slaughtered almost 1% of what Isengard had to offer as military force
Spoilers: Saruman pissed off the Ents by burning their trees for fuel, and when they marched to Isengard to inform him what they think of this cruelty, they ent kidding around.
Also spoilers: Saruman is done with fighting for good, so he sends his pyromaniac slaves to destroy the forest, thus causing Middle Earth to fuck up his shit. Don't destroy nature and be a hippie man. 🙂
I read the book at school but then seen the films about 25 times since then. Thanks for reminding me the real events. Sounds even better than the film tbh. Cheers
Great video and thanks for showing it! I love how you spare no expense with the details and narrow it down to make sure I can understand it! Cheers to you!
As entertaining as the Peter Jackson portrayal of this battle is, I always liked the portrayal of Ralph Bakshi in his 1978 movie for its proximity to the source material, except for the lack of Eomer! It is in general astounding how close he kept to the books while doing The Fellowship and around half of Two Towers in just around 130 minutes
Yes it is very faithful to the text I was 11 when it came out and saw it 4 times. Then I read the books. Love John Hurt as Aragorn. Also like the plot device of substituting Legolas for Glorfindel. If they have to skip him I think this makes the most sense. it’s a pity Bakshi couldn’t have made another movie and finished the epic saga.
@@neildaly2635 totally with you... except for the Legolas part, that always bugged me a bit! Not for using him, but they basically robbed him of his identity as Legolas Greenleaf, the prince of Mirkwood (or Greenwood the great)! To be honest, I really thought he was a servant of Elrond like he says in that movie, until years later when I finally read the books and could make the connection to the Elven King from the Hobbit, Thranduil, and just then learning he was actually his son and a prince! The usage of Arwen for these scenes was actually clever, cause in the books, she has no moments at all to shine and is pretty boring (but thinking about it, Legolas except for singing and telling poems does little in the books either 🙈 so that might have been good to characterize him a bi better)... the majority of watchers might ship Aragorn with Eowyn instead ...and I cannot put into words how much I hate that behaviour of audiences in general 😅 stupid shipping
18:28 Gimli's 42 is much more impressive cause he had to get up close and personal with them, unlike Legolas who could go all recon pu$$y on them (thanks robbaz for that term)
The film adaptation's decision to have what looked like 200-250 Elven Archers of the Galadhrim under Captain Haldir of Lothlorien, go to the Hornburg and to the aid of the Rohirrim, while controversial for some fans, was always one I approved of. Something about it always seemed curiously clever. As the years have passed since the release of The Two Towers (2002 - damn, where'd those 19 years go eh?) I've often gone back and forth about this one. I can see why it would be strategically difficult to send any Elves to Rohan's aid in the direct sense of sending troops to Helm's Deep, but at the same time, I always appreciated why Peter Jackson changed this in his adaptation. He didn't get everything right, but in this case, I generally come to the conclusion that he _improved_ on Tolkien. PJ was always under the pressure of trying to convert books which simply were never written with any care whatsoever about the worries of film directors (Tolkien famously, just did not give a damn and flat out rejected half a dozen film houses wanting to make a mockery of his work, which he thankfully declined) There are some points, some aspects of the film adaptation by PJ that absolutely show the limitations of the time a film has to tell a story versus how it could be explored in a long-form book. That is understandable and inevitable. Streamlining was unavoidable. Ironic, then, that with all they had to work with, PJ felt the need to send the Elves of Lorien over to help the Rohirrim. Whilst there are clear and obvious issues with this in-universe, such as the ever present strategic counter to Lorien, of Dol Guldur (they cancelled each other out most of the time, a thorn in each other's side and a barrier to Sauron on the West Bank of the Anduin in lands he would much rather have free passage through; something the Elves denied him, outright, of course), there is still a logic to it. At a rough estimate, if we imagine several thousand Galadhrim Warriors still remaining in Lorien's broad borders, while all this is playing out, under Lady Galadriel and Lord Celeborn's leadership, then they _still can_ afford to send a couple/or a few companies of elite archers over to Helm's Deep. I always interpreted this since childhood as the Elves sending an elite honour guard of the seat of Caras Galadhon, though of course this isn't necessarily the case. Haldir was the march-warden of Lorien, shielding the Golden Wood from the Eastern approaches. The Elves often had to deal with Orcish incursions, scouts and roving war-bands. They protected their borders. The Orcs would not get past Galadriel anyway, bearing Nenya and wielding all her power - but several thousand Elven warriors helped too. Clearly, denuding themselves of any forces in such a strategically important and precarious area, would be questionable. I dare say Tolkien himself might question the need for doing so. Obviously Peter Jackson decreased the number of defenders and streamlined the story to dramatise the desperate situation the Rohirrim seemed to be in. This is turned up to 11 in many regards; Theoden becomes far more melancholy and pessimistic than his book counterpart, and literal entire battles and characters are just omitted out of apparently pragmatic necessity in the film (though a throwaway line at the Hornburg about the Battle of the Fords of Isen, in the theatrical version, wouldn't have gone amiss in my opinion; of course, in the Extended Edition, the Battles of the Fords of Isen are indicated by the recovery of Theodred by Eomer, from a corpse strewn, riverside battlefield - but this hardly conveyed the true situation they were in as it happened more separately from the main events whereas it was a key event) The elite Elven archers showing up always helped the PJ Trilogy adaptation in my opinion. The logistics of how they got to Helm's Deep before the Isengarders did is another matter in itself, though in fairness, it could be explained by the way in which Galadriel and Elrond are telepathically communicating. Which itself poses some questions regarding the canonical lore but I never had much of a problem with this either. It always struck me as something they should be able to do as ringbearers of the Three - and the Wise should have abilities some consider to be, unnatural (Palpatine approves this message) We know Galadriel can from how she spoke to the Fellowship telepathically, but she was doing so inside her own territory, in her place of greatest strength. Regardless of what we think of the logistics and practical requirements of arranging such a relief effort long distance, and how long they might have needed to pass through Rohan, the point is, they contribute something important to the film; continuity. Film narrative structures work better across a trilogy with running themes that span the three films. The Elves are leaving Middle-Earth; but do they let Men stand alone? No. And they didn't in the books either. Problem being, that PJ was pressed for time with what he could show. Arguably, they spent a very long time on the build up to the battle as well as the battle itself. But there is a reason why it's considered one of the best battles on film in cinematic history. It is sumptuous and compelling all the way through. The stakes couldn't be higher as the Heir to the Throne of Gondor, the King of Rohan, his daughterly niece and even the Prince of the Woodland Realm, could all be wiped out in a single battle. The future of Rohan is at stake; but if Rohan falls from the top down, then so shall topple Eriador, Fangorn and maybe even Lorien. It makes perfect sense to me that about ~250-300 Elves are sent as a rapid response force to the aid of Rohan. A token gesture perhaps; but without them, the _film_ adaptation Rohirrim manning the Hornburg, would clearly have been annihilated long before the dawn. Had only 300 old men and boys, with a few dozen Royal Guards of Edoras dotted in and amongst them, faced ~10,000 Uruk-hai, then they would have had about a hundred men on the Deeping Wall and perhaps twice as many manning the main fortress's outer walls, keep and gatehouse. 100 of the film's version of Rohirrim garrison, comprised of yeomen and armed farm boys, would get violently overrun in about 10 minutes. It wouldn't even be much of a fight. But up there, in the keep, concentrated around the chokepoints of the gatehouse and the ramparts where the ladders would rise to meet them, they stood a chance. Not a great chance, but a chance - the longer the Elves held the Deeping Wall, the closer to the dawn they came. This always moved me because I felt as though the Elves must have known what their purpose in the battle was; to die buying time for the Rohirrim. They had no hope of avoiding severe casualties of their own, but fought on all night anyway and sacrificed themselves to a man, Captain and all (get those onions away from me fiend) The Elves were just about able to cover the courtyard and the Deeping Wall, before being forced to fall back. Now sure, one could ask the obvious; why would PJ decrease the Rohirrim from 1,000 or so in the initial garrison, down to 300? The very obvious answers to that are a) because 300 sounds like the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae and nobody can tell me otherwise that this wasn't on PJ's film director's brain at the time (he would have grown up watching films like, 'The 300 Spartans') and b) quite simply even if that isn't true, which it almost certainly is true I would guess, then suffice it to say that it just _sounds more dramatic whichever way you cut it_ e.g. Legolas's outburst to Aragorn about 10,000 VS 300, and how hopeless that was. It allowed PJ to create a somewhat contrived tension between Aragorn and Legolas, to show a conflict of leadership opinions. I actually quite liked this as it showed to me the likely far more ancient Elf Prince with all his experience of life, reminding the 87 year old he wasn't being realistic. Obviously this gets hammed up and the quality of the Rohirrim garrison is downplayed, though in the book they are clearly fierce warriors. It wasn't that the Elves were brought in at the cost of the real numbers - and quality - of the Rohirrim, in the film; it was that PJ was going to nerf the Rohirrim anyway, so that when the cavalry literally arrived to save the day, the emotional and visual impact as a spectacle, would simply be greater, more overwhelming, more impressive. Tolkien wasn't writing to make it easier for a film director. In many ways, it reads like a field report with unspectacular but important twists and turns in the narrative, which meant that PJ had to work with what he had and streamline. [1/2]
[2/2] In The Fellowship Of The Ring, we see Elves and Men standing up against evil. Yet Elves are disappearing from Middle-Earth and their time is ending sharing the world with Men. That a small, downsized battalion or so of clearly elite Elven Archers, go to legit, full-on sacrifice themselves knowing they'll all die, always made me feel something more than the book version does. It just does. The Elves, immortal and given the choice to simply, and quite literally, walk away (in the direction of the ships leaving Middle-Earth) instead choosing to die painful deaths in a rainy, lightning lit ravine outnumbered dozens to one. What a sacrifice, I thought as a young lad watching it for the first time - what heroism. What an Elven thing to do. They buy the Rohirrim just enough time to make it to the following morning, but not a single Elf besides Legolas is seen again. This obviously creates it's own lore in the film adaptation, distinct from the book lore version. Even at the Battle of the Morannon/Black Gates, in the films, if you look very closely, a few banners of the Galadhrim brought all the way from the Battle of Helm's Deep/the Hornburg is visible among the sea of Gondorian and Rohirrim flags and pennants in the breeze. It was best seen in promotional photos for ROTK. Now, of course, the cynic in me says, 'they probably just chucked in any flags they could find from the props department and hadn't thought about it this way until people noticed them in the pictures'. But according to Weta Workshop (if I remember correctly at the time) they basically said that the Rohirrim were carrying the Elven banners in respectful commemoration of their supreme sacrifice at the Hornburg. It's fanfiction style and definitely not part of the book canon/Tolkien canon, but it damn well makes you think. That would be _exactly_ how the Rohirrim would honour the Elves. Carrying their banners forward out of respect. But that is in the films only and is easily missed. Had 250-300 ish Elves gone to help 1,000 or 2,000 Rohirrim, it wouldn't have the same impact as 300 or so Rohirrim receiving the support of about as many Elves. It clearly reminds the audience of the prologue scene in the film adaptation of The Fellowship Of The Ring, and it clearly wants to give the Elves something major to do on screen. In the third film, they are still around but are not shown in battles (in the Extended Edition, Legolas alludes to the war impacting both his own people and Gimli's people, in response to Gimli, saying, ''I fear war may already be marching on their own lands", at Edoras as they prepare to go to the Muster at Dunharrow. It is a passing moment, among more important scenes, but that does give a nod to the War in the North) Strategically, yes, the Elves can only barely hold out where they are and need every warrior they have for the most part. But sending a fraction of their estimated forces to go to the pivotal aid of the Rohirrim, is special. I just prefer this version of the story myself. It makes sense for a thousand Rohirrim to guard the Hornburg prior to any support. But I can see exactly why PJ changed this and mixed it up a bit on purpose. The only aspects I don't like having been changed are: 1. How Theoden is shown to be more hopeless and downbeat in a way which crosses over into the third film initially. and 2. How the 'best bros' moments between Aragorn and Eomer are omitted. In the book, they - not Aragorn and Gimli - fight back to back on the causeway, and a great deal is made out of their swords. It is a bit of a bro moment between them and they are buzzing showing off their swords (that sounds wrong but you know what I mean) P.S - RIP Haldir, Captain of the Guard, King of all our hearts. "We come in honour of that allegiance". Cheesy for some perhaps, but a touching send off for the Elves. Tolkien would probably disapprove but I don't even care, I like it.
First of all, you‘re right! It is the „best“ (or least worst change)! In general, I prefer adaptations to stay as original as possible, this change though never really bothered me, brought it a lot tongue table and was quite entertaining visually! I must admit though I never recognized a Galadhrim banner at Morannon, must keep my eyes open and stop a few times I do my next rewatch 😅 If they just lefty’s couple alive to travel with Aragorn, or included Elladan and Elrohir into the host so the Grey Company gets at least a hint... they could also brought Narsil/Anduril for Aragorn... so many minor changes that would even add to and use the lore in my opinion! Just a few minor points I remembered: -The Hornburg had a garrison of 1000 Westfolders with horses, Theoden king brought another 1000 riders from Edoras and the immediate surrounding area, most likely the Folde and nearly western Eastfold, so 2000 men! Erkenbrand with Gandalf brought another 1000 Westfolders, but on foot, which makes quite a difference! -I never found official numbers, but 250-300 elven warriors is a bit low I would argue! The Deeping Wall is long and thick, I one stopped and counted... the elves are positioned in 3 lines, each at least 70 archers visual on the wall, so minimum 210 on the wall (though, I have to admit that changes, when the camera is far off, it is 3 lines, if the camera is amidst them or moves parallel through the lines, for example when Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli are in the focus, the wall is smaller and it’s just two lines! There are 3 additional lines on the ground, so I‘d argue another at least 210, so I would estimate the elves at Helms Deep at around 450! I must further admit, this is the only problem I really had with the elves at the Hornburg! Given how accurate, in sync and disciplined they shoot, they must destroy 10,000 Uruk-hai with their volleys and be able to fight off the rest! Their quivers are filled with arrows; if only half of them emptied them like Legolas did... plus the hits from the Rohirrim, the Uruk-hai must be either more then 10,000 to balance this out or I would have had the rain (from Saruman?) balance it out...wet bowstrings tend to rip apart if overly used! To your further points, YES, to those who are educated in history, 300 must have rung a bell 😅 and like the the adding of the elves, being heavily outnumbered and being rescued last second by a cavalry charge just adds to the visuals and the cinematic drama!
13:06 „We are the fighting Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair wheather or for storm. We come to kill, by sun or moon.“ Tolkien made even some of the foulest creatures kind of poetic in this moment 😅
I wonder how Sauron took the news of Helms Deep initially. He likely knew of Saruman's treachery sometime after the Isenguard orcs tried taking Merry and Pippin, but I imagine he was hoping both Saruman and Theoden would bleed extensively before they got involved in his plans for the Southern Theater. In any case-and I don't say this against Tolkien- Saruman always struck me as a Starscream figure, never the Megatron. Look at Isenguard, then look at Barad dur. Look at his ten thousand orcs and Dunlandings vs the countless legions of Mordor. And on that note, look at the territory Saruman controlled and then look at Mordor itself. Further, Saruman never built any of his holdings for himself. Isenguard was built by the Numenorians and ceded to him by the Rohirrim. Sauron meanwhile built his empire from scratch twice...plus a bit of help from the Nazgul. I'd say the moment he lost Frodo at Amon Hen, he was finished. Whatever plans he had for conquering Middle Earth were based on a huge series of gambles such as his being able to keep Theoden from reacting in time, capturing the Ring, holding onto enough of his forces that he could survive Sauron's assault once Gondor fell and then gathering enough forces to his banner (and from where I can't imagine: the Misty Mountains? Moria? Did he plan to ally with the Balrog?) that he could push them back or dominate Sauron's own troops. Which brings up the biggest gamble if he got the ring: his possessing to not only resist being corrupted by it or turn into a wraith or whatever would happen to a mair, but to be able to overthrow Sauron himself. Keep in mind that Sauron, a former servant of Aule like Saruman himself, was among the most powerful mair, perhaps growing in power and certainly in malice while serving Morgoth. Even with his chief power and essence placed in the ring, I don't know if Saruman could have taken him, let alone overcome his influence. All in all, I'd say Gandalf was right at the start. He really did abandon reason for madness.
acoup.blog/category/collections/the-battle-of-helms-deep/ You (and everyone else) may appreciate this series if you haven't read it already, it's an analysis of the campaign (noting differences in the books and films) by a military historian Dr. Bret Devereaux who runs the entitled blog A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry. He also has a series on the invasion of Gondor and at times covers things from A Song of Ice and Fire along with all his other wonderful work.
One of the few times I prefer the film to the book. The book's assault always felt incredibly clumsy and inept. The Uruk Hai are portrayed as far more of a threat in the film with specialized equipment tailored push up ladders, Berserkers to clear a beachhead, tower shields to protect from arrows, scorpions to threaten the keep and the blasting powder. The battle of Helm's Deep is one of the best shot battles put to film. Conversely I much prefer the siege of Minas Tirith in the books opposed to that shown in the film.(Not least of which because Denethor is actually competent in the book, making his descent to madness and despair all the more impactful)
I can't say I disagree. One thing that stood out to me on re-reads is that Isengard were on the brink of losing the battle even before Erkenbrand's reinforcements arrived. Doesn't paint them in an overly threatening light.
@@DarthGandalfYT yes, they were already routing from Aragorn and Theoden's charge coupled with the sound of the Horn. Erkenbrand and the Hourns just finished off the shattered remnants of the rout that weren't even fighting back at that point. Similarly in the battles at the Fords they use very clumsy blunt tactics, taking heavy losses against far fewer foes that should have been easy to encircle and bypass. I know the Uruk Hai and Orcs Saruman made were just a few months old(and therefore probably not overly bright or experienced) but they really come across as exceedingly incompetent especially compared to the siege of Minas Tirith, where the Orcs did trenches, set up outside range of the defenders weapons, and wait for despair and weariness to take a toll before they launch the assault on the gate. Mordor's tactics are far more sound in the books.
@@DarthGandalfYT I thought Tolkien did this deliberately to show Saruman's incompetence at war and impotence compared with Sauron. Not just their running away at Theoden's charge, but several other things too; his plan centred on removing opponent big name leaders (fine) but ignored the smaller yet still competent commanders, after the Fords he then left these commanders along with many armed men in his rear, it didn't seem like he intended to take the Hornburg (only going there when Theoden did) even though this would have been the obvious place for the Fords' survivors to regroup and be a major thorn in his side. Sauron even seemed to assume that he would fail to take Rohan since He had organized both his own invasion and the buffer army in Anorien.
@@dominicauty5047 I'm not so sure about that. The Isengarders outperformed the Rohirrim at both battles at the Fords, and the Uruk-hai were shown to be very disciplined during the Uruk-hai chapter in the Two Towers. On a strategic level, I think Saruman mostly made the right decisions; his downfall ended up largely being the result of Gandalf's meddling, something which he couldn't do anything about once Grima was removed. If not for Gandalf, Saruman was poised to win quite easily.
@@DarthGandalfYT Without Gandalf Rohan was toast. I just thought that this showed the contrast between Saruman's and Sauron's strengths and emphasised how proud and foolish Saruman was in double-crossing him. Though I would quibble slightly. Tolkien said Saruman made a mistake in not immediately invading after the first battle of the Fords (page two of the account in my book), and in neither were the Rohirrim forced to flee entirely (at least not yet for the second). Actually, I do think Ugluk and his lads were pretty well disciplined. But wouldn't you send some of your best on such an important mission? However, despite outnumbering Eomer nearly 2:1 (only 80 were Isengarders I suppose) no orc ever took news to Isengard or Mordor, whereas Eomer lost 15 men. I wonder how long Theoden would have taken to recover (or even if he could) without Gandalf, say if Eomer had dealt with Grima or if he'd taken a little tumble off a cliff.
What Arnor, what population? Bree and the Shire are the only population centers and they didn't march out to war. The only people we know fighting are a company of thirty rangers and Elronds sons. I have no doubt there are more rangers and elves which could be called upon to fight but I would be surprised is that number was more than five hundred.
@@Miami-jt2jp that is extremely hard to estimate since there are literally no hints or mentions of any numbers! All we know is Elendil landed in Eriador with his 4 ships of faithful and that the Numenorians had a few colonies in the regions like Lond Daer and Tharbad, for around 2500 years at the time of his arrival! Add to those Numenorians the „native“ middle-men of this area, the forefathers of the people of Bree and Dunland! ... and that they got decimated by intern struggles amongst Arthedain, Cardolan & Rhudaur, then Angmar, then the Great Plague! I‘d argue, at its height, perhaps around 1 Million, given that Gondor was always the more populous realm and had more formed Numenorian colonies (and that is not 1 Million Dunedain 😉)
I'll get there eventually. I'd prefer to do population videos on realms I can more accurately guess first. The problem with Arnor is that I wouldn't have much information to go off so I'd basically be making up a lot.
I don't care what book readers think or say, but I stay really like and never get tired of seeing Haldir and the Galadhrim Elven warriors of Lothlorien aid the Rohirrim at Helm's Deep in The Two Towers movie (2002).
a) to demonstrate that the Elves were in fact active in the war b) to give them something to do that didn't mean leaving Rohan c) Arwen was initially supposed to fight at Helm's Deep and some production and filming was done on a few scenes. This was found out by the Tolkien fanbase during production, and if I am remembering what I heard about this correctly, released/leaked on the old school LOTR forums back in 2002. This pissed people off enough that they complained a lot at that time (I wasn't aware as a kid back then but heard about this later) so it was decided to cut it from the film such was the backlash. They'd been trying to give Liv Tyler stuff to do, since TFOTR (e.g. when she took Frodo to Imladris/Rivendell when really Lord Glorfindel did instead) There is still some early filming footage of Arwen running around in the Glittering Caves looking like she was fighting Uruk-Hai breaking in, but this was soon cut. Poor Liv Tyler lol she had to stay in the staging area (Rivendell) of the Fellowship for the rest of the trilogy, being emotional and dramatic via telepathy lol Well, at least she made sure Aragorn's blade Anduril was ready for him to use. But wait; that was basically Elrond's doing really. Arwen wasn't just a love interest she was a badass folks...right...right?! :p I can see why they tried to put her more front and centre because it was kind of weird how she kind of vanished into a secondary role when she'd been so prominent in the first film (though arguably, she'd been given too much of a spotlight in that) But from a cinematic point of view, this makes total sense (Tolkien wasn't writing to make it convenient for film directors, he didn't give a damn about them and let everyone know) Point being: instead of sending Arwen they sent Haldir and his elite guards. d) PJ reduced the Rohirrim garrison from ~1,000 to ~300 for dramatic purposes (no prizes for guessing why, to increase tension and hype things up) The Elves coming along to sacrifice themselves to buy Rohan time to save itself with a Wizard's help, always struck me as moving and a good improvement in a dramatic sense. I just prefer it to how Tolkien did things for this particular battle. But had the full Rohirrim garrison been there, then it would not be as tense as you'd expect them to put up a far better fight. Reduced to 300 men in the script by PJ in his adaptation of the books, the Rohirrim - mainly armed yeomanry, farmers and young lads - were not going to even be able to man the walls properly. 1,000 easily could but in the film it is very obvious right away that the Men are looking to have the Elves helping them,. because they can only stand in strength at the gatehouse and the Keep. The Elves cover the Deeping Wall and Courtyard. The film version garrison of the Rohirrim, would last about half an hour without the Elves to bear the brunt of the Uruk charge on the Deeping Wall. The Rohirrim in the film are shown to barely be able to hold onto their own gatehouse and that's even with the Elves casuallyt sniping volley after volley into the Uruks attacking the gates, while they are also busy fighting for their lives on the Deeping Wall! In other words: the way Peter Jackson portrays the garrison the Rohirrim have by themselves, comprised largely of old men and young boys, they don't stand a chance of even vaguely lasting the night. In the book, it's not nearly so one-sided against the Rohirrim defending themselves at Helm's Deep. As this video explains, they have i) many more men and ii) greater defences than are shown. Helm's Dike is almost completely omitted from the film. PJ wanted the dramatic shots of the Uruks arriving lit by lightning in the rain. Tolkien wasn't writing for PJ's convenience though. In my view, they could still have filmed a version where Helm's Dike was a thing. The camera could have gazed out into the darkness; the sounds of skirmishing slowly fading out, and horrifically, but few men flee back to the Hornburg, with the Uruk vanguard pikes lowered following them from the gloom, injured Rohirrim just barely getting back to the gatehouse; but this would imply they were happy to waste precious lives and with PJ making them only number 300 Rohirrim defending Helm's Deep in his version, then clearly not one of them would step foot outside the main fortress against 10,000 Uruks. That'd just be wasteful as obviously they'd never stand a chance. e) To remind the audience of the alliance and actually do something to show that alliance. Now, the Lorien Elves/Galadhrim aren't exactly best mates with the Rohirrim, but canonically, Lorien just by existing, North of the Entwash and the Wold, is a serious strategic buffer zone which helps Rohan indirectly/directly just by being where it is. Rohan is largely shielded from the worse excesses of the Mordor fortress of Dol Guldur on Amon Lanc, in Southern Mirkwood, by the very presence of Lorien. Rohan would get invaded a whole lot more if not for Lorien. So in a weird way, it is cool that at least in the film version, the Elves go to aid the Rohirrim - who might not even realise how much they owe the Elves. f) Weta Workshop made some really snazzy Third Age Elven Armour for the Galadhrim Elves. They were definitely going to show that off one way or another. P.S - cos it's cool (something PJ also definitely was thinking about, the 'sweet mayne it's cool, mayne' factor) Also also: little known fact - if you look closely in the Battle of the Morannon photo stills, you can see some Rohirrim carrying Elven (specifically, Galadhrim) banners. The in-film adaptation only lore on this, is that the Rohirrim carried Elven banners to commemorate and honour the Elves who sacrificed themselves completely to buy time for them. Not a single Elven warrior from Lorien survived the Battle for Helm's Deep/Battle of the Hornburg. _How convenient_ :p the non-canon film only inclusion, was cleaned up by being wiped out. But I love the idea of the Rohirrim carrying their banners out of respect to honour them as late as the Morannon/Black Gates. I mean, it's certainly not just that the props department chucked any banner they had at the extras and a few accidentally happened to be Elven (lol) Heaven forfend that possibility! ("That's not true that's iMpOsSiBlE!" - Luke Skywalker) I mean it might just be a fan theory but I like it anyway, always have.
@@ThePalaeontologist Thats a very informative answer thank you, I wasn't aware Arwen was meant to originally be there so thank you for that. I do think you could have kept them and original garrison but it is what it is and the battles still good in the movie.
Anyone find it surprising Gimli doesn't fight Dunlendings because of their size? I understand orcs are smaller in stature but dwarves of the first age could take on elves!
I have a theory for this - Durin's Folk dwelt in Dunland for about thirty years or so during their exile from Erebor. Gimli wasn't born there, but Gloin probably was. Perhaps Gimli was trying to avoid fighting the Dunlendings due to the fact that they had once housed Durin's Folk in their lands.
The usual thing; for the visuals and the drama (and Elves fighting totally in sync is also cgi friendly 😅)! And they already used Haldir, so why cast new characters when you simply can reuse others? We can almost say what a luck they didn‘t use Celeborn, Galadriels husband, for this kamikaze mission Concerning Helms Deep, they changed a lot in the movies! Gandalf in the books specifically motivates Theoden to go there, in the movies, he basically says it’s foolish and a death trap!
42 and 41 at first doesn‘t sound much... but in reality, that is an insane death toll for one single battle, especially Gimli, all in close combat!
Together, 2 (non-)humans slaughtered almost 1% of what Isengard had to offer as military force
And this is hand to hand combats don’t forget
Incorrect, almost 0.1% bc Isengard's army was 10.000 strong, not only 1000
@@muenchhausenmusic1% of 10000 is 100. 83 is almost 100
@@muenchhausenmusic1% equals 0.01 in decimal form. 10,000 x 0.01 = 100. OP is correct
4:51 "too old, like Gamling himself"
Fun fact: Gamling's name is Swedish for "old man"
Spoilers: Saruman pissed off the Ents by burning their trees for fuel, and when they marched to Isengard to inform him what they think of this cruelty, they ent kidding around.
I can't think of a pun to match so I'll just say well done.
Also spoilers: Saruman is done with fighting for good, so he sends his pyromaniac slaves to destroy the forest, thus causing Middle Earth to fuck up his shit. Don't destroy nature and be a hippie man. 🙂
@@DarthGandalfYT Thanks!
Ent karma a Birch?
Nice one!
I read the book at school but then seen the films about 25 times since then. Thanks for reminding me the real events. Sounds even better than the film tbh. Cheers
So glad you used the brilliant Atlas of Middle Earth as a source. That was so very helpful on my 3rd read-through of the book.
Great video and thanks for showing it! I love how you spare no expense with the details and narrow it down to make sure I can understand it!
Cheers to you!
As entertaining as the Peter Jackson portrayal of this battle is, I always liked the portrayal of Ralph Bakshi in his 1978 movie for its proximity to the source material, except for the lack of Eomer!
It is in general astounding how close he kept to the books while doing The Fellowship and around half of Two Towers in just around 130 minutes
Yes it is very faithful to the text I was 11 when it came out and saw it 4 times. Then I read the books. Love John Hurt as Aragorn. Also like the plot device of substituting Legolas for Glorfindel. If they have to skip him I think this makes the most sense. it’s a pity Bakshi couldn’t have made another movie and finished the epic saga.
@@neildaly2635 totally with you... except for the Legolas part, that always bugged me a bit! Not for using him, but they basically robbed him of his identity as Legolas Greenleaf, the prince of Mirkwood (or Greenwood the great)! To be honest, I really thought he was a servant of Elrond like he says in that movie, until years later when I finally read the books and could make the connection to the Elven King from the Hobbit, Thranduil, and just then learning he was actually his son and a prince!
The usage of Arwen for these scenes was actually clever, cause in the books, she has no moments at all to shine and is pretty boring (but thinking about it, Legolas except for singing and telling poems does little in the books either 🙈 so that might have been good to characterize him a bi better)... the majority of watchers might ship Aragorn with Eowyn instead
...and I cannot put into words how much I hate that behaviour of audiences in general 😅 stupid shipping
amazing lore reading man, very precise and filled with all the details, really congratz!!
keep up the good work youre the best ;)
Your videos are fantastic. Please keep it up!
Random comment for the algorithm
Love your channel Darth Gandalf. Best LoTR content on TH-cam!
My favorite battle in lotr.
Wish we could of seen Helms Dike in the movie thought it was a pretty cool addition to their defenses.
@@rc59191 you mean you thought it would be a good addition to their defense
18:28 Gimli's 42 is much more impressive cause he had to get up close and personal with them, unlike Legolas who could go all recon pu$$y on them (thanks robbaz for that term)
Can’t wait to see the next video mate
The film adaptation's decision to have what looked like 200-250 Elven Archers of the Galadhrim under Captain Haldir of Lothlorien, go to the Hornburg and to the aid of the Rohirrim, while controversial for some fans, was always one I approved of. Something about it always seemed curiously clever.
As the years have passed since the release of The Two Towers (2002 - damn, where'd those 19 years go eh?) I've often gone back and forth about this one. I can see why it would be strategically difficult to send any Elves to Rohan's aid in the direct sense of sending troops to Helm's Deep, but at the same time, I always appreciated why Peter Jackson changed this in his adaptation. He didn't get everything right, but in this case, I generally come to the conclusion that he _improved_ on Tolkien.
PJ was always under the pressure of trying to convert books which simply were never written with any care whatsoever about the worries of film directors (Tolkien famously, just did not give a damn and flat out rejected half a dozen film houses wanting to make a mockery of his work, which he thankfully declined) There are some points, some aspects of the film adaptation by PJ that absolutely show the limitations of the time a film has to tell a story versus how it could be explored in a long-form book.
That is understandable and inevitable. Streamlining was unavoidable. Ironic, then, that with all they had to work with, PJ felt the need to send the Elves of Lorien over to help the Rohirrim.
Whilst there are clear and obvious issues with this in-universe, such as the ever present strategic counter to Lorien, of Dol Guldur (they cancelled each other out most of the time, a thorn in each other's side and a barrier to Sauron on the West Bank of the Anduin in lands he would much rather have free passage through; something the Elves denied him, outright, of course), there is still a logic to it.
At a rough estimate, if we imagine several thousand Galadhrim Warriors still remaining in Lorien's broad borders, while all this is playing out, under Lady Galadriel and Lord Celeborn's leadership, then they _still can_ afford to send a couple/or a few companies of elite archers over to Helm's Deep.
I always interpreted this since childhood as the Elves sending an elite honour guard of the seat of Caras Galadhon, though of course this isn't necessarily the case. Haldir was the march-warden of Lorien, shielding the Golden Wood from the Eastern approaches. The Elves often had to deal with Orcish incursions, scouts and roving war-bands. They protected their borders. The Orcs would not get past Galadriel anyway, bearing Nenya and wielding all her power - but several thousand Elven warriors helped too. Clearly, denuding themselves of any forces in such a strategically important and precarious area, would be questionable. I dare say Tolkien himself might question the need for doing so.
Obviously Peter Jackson decreased the number of defenders and streamlined the story to dramatise the desperate situation the Rohirrim seemed to be in. This is turned up to 11 in many regards; Theoden becomes far more melancholy and pessimistic than his book counterpart, and literal entire battles and characters are just omitted out of apparently pragmatic necessity in the film (though a throwaway line at the Hornburg about the Battle of the Fords of Isen, in the theatrical version, wouldn't have gone amiss in my opinion; of course, in the Extended Edition, the Battles of the Fords of Isen are indicated by the recovery of Theodred by Eomer, from a corpse strewn, riverside battlefield - but this hardly conveyed the true situation they were in as it happened more separately from the main events whereas it was a key event)
The elite Elven archers showing up always helped the PJ Trilogy adaptation in my opinion. The logistics of how they got to Helm's Deep before the Isengarders did is another matter in itself, though in fairness, it could be explained by the way in which Galadriel and Elrond are telepathically communicating. Which itself poses some questions regarding the canonical lore but I never had much of a problem with this either. It always struck me as something they should be able to do as ringbearers of the Three - and the Wise should have abilities some consider to be, unnatural (Palpatine approves this message)
We know Galadriel can from how she spoke to the Fellowship telepathically, but she was doing so inside her own territory, in her place of greatest strength. Regardless of what we think of the logistics and practical requirements of arranging such a relief effort long distance, and how long they might have needed to pass through Rohan, the point is, they contribute something important to the film; continuity.
Film narrative structures work better across a trilogy with running themes that span the three films. The Elves are leaving Middle-Earth; but do they let Men stand alone? No. And they didn't in the books either. Problem being, that PJ was pressed for time with what he could show. Arguably, they spent a very long time on the build up to the battle as well as the battle itself. But there is a reason why it's considered one of the best battles on film in cinematic history. It is sumptuous and compelling all the way through.
The stakes couldn't be higher as the Heir to the Throne of Gondor, the King of Rohan, his daughterly niece and even the Prince of the Woodland Realm, could all be wiped out in a single battle.
The future of Rohan is at stake; but if Rohan falls from the top down, then so shall topple Eriador, Fangorn and maybe even Lorien.
It makes perfect sense to me that about ~250-300 Elves are sent as a rapid response force to the aid of Rohan. A token gesture perhaps; but without them, the _film_ adaptation Rohirrim manning the Hornburg, would clearly have been annihilated long before the dawn.
Had only 300 old men and boys, with a few dozen Royal Guards of Edoras dotted in and amongst them, faced ~10,000 Uruk-hai, then they would have had about a hundred men on the Deeping Wall and perhaps twice as many manning the main fortress's outer walls, keep and gatehouse.
100 of the film's version of Rohirrim garrison, comprised of yeomen and armed farm boys, would get violently overrun in about 10 minutes. It wouldn't even be much of a fight.
But up there, in the keep, concentrated around the chokepoints of the gatehouse and the ramparts where the ladders would rise to meet them, they stood a chance. Not a great chance, but a chance - the longer the Elves held the Deeping Wall, the closer to the dawn they came. This always moved me because I felt as though the Elves must have known what their purpose in the battle was; to die buying time for the Rohirrim. They had no hope of avoiding severe casualties of their own, but fought on all night anyway and sacrificed themselves to a man, Captain and all (get those onions away from me fiend)
The Elves were just about able to cover the courtyard and the Deeping Wall, before being forced to fall back. Now sure, one could ask the obvious; why would PJ decrease the Rohirrim from 1,000 or so in the initial garrison, down to 300? The very obvious answers to that are a) because 300 sounds like the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae and nobody can tell me otherwise that this wasn't on PJ's film director's brain at the time (he would have grown up watching films like, 'The 300 Spartans') and b) quite simply even if that isn't true, which it almost certainly is true I would guess, then suffice it to say that it just _sounds more dramatic whichever way you cut it_ e.g. Legolas's outburst to Aragorn about 10,000 VS 300, and how hopeless that was.
It allowed PJ to create a somewhat contrived tension between Aragorn and Legolas, to show a conflict of leadership opinions. I actually quite liked this as it showed to me the likely far more ancient Elf Prince with all his experience of life, reminding the 87 year old he wasn't being realistic. Obviously this gets hammed up and the quality of the Rohirrim garrison is downplayed, though in the book they are clearly fierce warriors.
It wasn't that the Elves were brought in at the cost of the real numbers - and quality - of the Rohirrim, in the film; it was that PJ was going to nerf the Rohirrim anyway, so that when the cavalry literally arrived to save the day, the emotional and visual impact as a spectacle, would simply be greater, more overwhelming, more impressive. Tolkien wasn't writing to make it easier for a film director. In many ways, it reads like a field report with unspectacular but important twists and turns in the narrative, which meant that PJ had to work with what he had and streamline.
[1/2]
[2/2] In The Fellowship Of The Ring, we see Elves and Men standing up against evil. Yet Elves are disappearing from Middle-Earth and their time is ending sharing the world with Men. That a small, downsized battalion or so of clearly elite Elven Archers, go to legit, full-on sacrifice themselves knowing they'll all die, always made me feel something more than the book version does. It just does. The Elves, immortal and given the choice to simply, and quite literally, walk away (in the direction of the ships leaving Middle-Earth) instead choosing to die painful deaths in a rainy, lightning lit ravine outnumbered dozens to one. What a sacrifice, I thought as a young lad watching it for the first time - what heroism. What an Elven thing to do.
They buy the Rohirrim just enough time to make it to the following morning, but not a single Elf besides Legolas is seen again. This obviously creates it's own lore in the film adaptation, distinct from the book lore version. Even at the Battle of the Morannon/Black Gates, in the films, if you look very closely, a few banners of the Galadhrim brought all the way from the Battle of Helm's Deep/the Hornburg is visible among the sea of Gondorian and Rohirrim flags and pennants in the breeze. It was best seen in promotional photos for ROTK.
Now, of course, the cynic in me says, 'they probably just chucked in any flags they could find from the props department and hadn't thought about it this way until people noticed them in the pictures'. But according to Weta Workshop (if I remember correctly at the time) they basically said that the Rohirrim were carrying the Elven banners in respectful commemoration of their supreme sacrifice at the Hornburg. It's fanfiction style and definitely not part of the book canon/Tolkien canon, but it damn well makes you think. That would be _exactly_ how the Rohirrim would honour the Elves. Carrying their banners forward out of respect. But that is in the films only and is easily missed.
Had 250-300 ish Elves gone to help 1,000 or 2,000 Rohirrim, it wouldn't have the same impact as 300 or so Rohirrim receiving the support of about as many Elves. It clearly reminds the audience of the prologue scene in the film adaptation of The Fellowship Of The Ring, and it clearly wants to give the Elves something major to do on screen. In the third film, they are still around but are not shown in battles (in the Extended Edition, Legolas alludes to the war impacting both his own people and Gimli's people, in response to Gimli, saying, ''I fear war may already be marching on their own lands", at Edoras as they prepare to go to the Muster at Dunharrow. It is a passing moment, among more important scenes, but that does give a nod to the War in the North)
Strategically, yes, the Elves can only barely hold out where they are and need every warrior they have for the most part. But sending a fraction of their estimated forces to go to the pivotal aid of the Rohirrim, is special. I just prefer this version of the story myself. It makes sense for a thousand Rohirrim to guard the Hornburg prior to any support. But I can see exactly why PJ changed this and mixed it up a bit on purpose. The only aspects I don't like having been changed are:
1. How Theoden is shown to be more hopeless and downbeat in a way which crosses over into the third film initially.
and
2. How the 'best bros' moments between Aragorn and Eomer are omitted. In the book, they - not Aragorn and Gimli - fight back to back on the causeway, and a great deal is made out of their swords. It is a bit of a bro moment between them and they are buzzing showing off their swords (that sounds wrong but you know what I mean)
P.S - RIP Haldir, Captain of the Guard, King of all our hearts.
"We come in honour of that allegiance".
Cheesy for some perhaps, but a touching send off for the Elves.
Tolkien would probably disapprove but I don't even care, I like it.
First of all, you‘re right! It is the „best“ (or least worst change)! In general, I prefer adaptations to stay as original as possible, this change though never really bothered me, brought it a lot tongue table and was quite entertaining visually!
I must admit though I never recognized a Galadhrim banner at Morannon, must keep my eyes open and stop a few times I do my next rewatch 😅
If they just lefty’s couple alive to travel with Aragorn, or included Elladan and Elrohir into the host so the Grey Company gets at least a hint... they could also brought Narsil/Anduril for Aragorn... so many minor changes that would even add to and use the lore in my opinion!
Just a few minor points I remembered:
-The Hornburg had a garrison of 1000 Westfolders with horses, Theoden king brought another 1000 riders from Edoras and the immediate surrounding area, most likely the Folde and nearly western Eastfold, so 2000 men! Erkenbrand with Gandalf brought another 1000 Westfolders, but on foot, which makes quite a difference!
-I never found official numbers, but 250-300 elven warriors is a bit low I would argue! The Deeping Wall is long and thick, I one stopped and counted... the elves are positioned in 3 lines, each at least 70 archers visual on the wall, so minimum 210 on the wall (though, I have to admit that changes, when the camera is far off, it is 3 lines, if the camera is amidst them or moves parallel through the lines, for example when Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli are in the focus, the wall is smaller and it’s just two lines!
There are 3 additional lines on the ground, so I‘d argue another at least 210, so I would estimate the elves at Helms Deep at around 450!
I must further admit, this is the only problem I really had with the elves at the Hornburg!
Given how accurate, in sync and disciplined they shoot, they must destroy 10,000 Uruk-hai with their volleys and be able to fight off the rest! Their quivers are filled with arrows; if only half of them emptied them like Legolas did... plus the hits from the Rohirrim, the Uruk-hai must be either more then 10,000 to balance this out or I would have had the rain (from Saruman?) balance it out...wet bowstrings tend to rip apart if overly used!
To your further points, YES, to those who are educated in history, 300 must have rung a bell 😅 and like the the adding of the elves, being heavily outnumbered and being rescued last second by a cavalry charge just adds to the visuals and the cinematic drama!
@@ThePalaeontologist mmm, yes very much agreed. Thanks for this.
13:06 „We are the fighting Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair wheather or for storm. We come to kill, by sun or moon.“
Tolkien made even some of the foulest creatures kind of poetic in this moment 😅
"Hey Aragorn, rate our poetry!" "You're all going to die come the morning". "That bad, huh?"
@@DarthGandalfYT literally 👍🏻😂😂😂
I wonder how Sauron took the news of Helms Deep initially. He likely knew of Saruman's treachery sometime after the Isenguard orcs tried taking Merry and Pippin, but I imagine he was hoping both Saruman and Theoden would bleed extensively before they got involved in his plans for the Southern Theater.
In any case-and I don't say this against Tolkien- Saruman always struck me as a Starscream figure, never the Megatron. Look at Isenguard, then look at Barad dur. Look at his ten thousand orcs and Dunlandings vs the countless legions of Mordor. And on that note, look at the territory Saruman controlled and then look at Mordor itself.
Further, Saruman never built any of his holdings for himself. Isenguard was built by the Numenorians and ceded to him by the Rohirrim. Sauron meanwhile built his empire from scratch twice...plus a bit of help from the Nazgul.
I'd say the moment he lost Frodo at Amon Hen, he was finished. Whatever plans he had for conquering Middle Earth were based on a huge series of gambles such as his being able to keep Theoden from reacting in time, capturing the Ring, holding onto enough of his forces that he could survive Sauron's assault once Gondor fell and then gathering enough forces to his banner (and from where I can't imagine: the Misty Mountains? Moria? Did he plan to ally with the Balrog?) that he could push them back or dominate Sauron's own troops.
Which brings up the biggest gamble if he got the ring: his possessing to not only resist being corrupted by it or turn into a wraith or whatever would happen to a mair, but to be able to overthrow Sauron himself. Keep in mind that Sauron, a former servant of Aule like Saruman himself, was among the most powerful mair, perhaps growing in power and certainly in malice while serving Morgoth. Even with his chief power and essence placed in the ring, I don't know if Saruman could have taken him, let alone overcome his influence.
All in all, I'd say Gandalf was right at the start. He really did abandon reason for madness.
acoup.blog/category/collections/the-battle-of-helms-deep/ You (and everyone else) may appreciate this series if you haven't read it already, it's an analysis of the campaign (noting differences in the books and films) by a military historian Dr. Bret Devereaux who runs the entitled blog A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry. He also has a series on the invasion of Gondor and at times covers things from A Song of Ice and Fire along with all his other wonderful work.
Another excellent video.
8:41 „Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!“
Just for the insiders 😋
Why dont you do a soilder analysis of rohan
One of the few times I prefer the film to the book. The book's assault always felt incredibly clumsy and inept. The Uruk Hai are portrayed as far more of a threat in the film with specialized equipment tailored push up ladders, Berserkers to clear a beachhead, tower shields to protect from arrows, scorpions to threaten the keep and the blasting powder. The battle of Helm's Deep is one of the best shot battles put to film. Conversely I much prefer the siege of Minas Tirith in the books opposed to that shown in the film.(Not least of which because Denethor is actually competent in the book, making his descent to madness and despair all the more impactful)
I can't say I disagree. One thing that stood out to me on re-reads is that Isengard were on the brink of losing the battle even before Erkenbrand's reinforcements arrived. Doesn't paint them in an overly threatening light.
@@DarthGandalfYT yes, they were already routing from Aragorn and Theoden's charge coupled with the sound of the Horn. Erkenbrand and the Hourns just finished off the shattered remnants of the rout that weren't even fighting back at that point. Similarly in the battles at the Fords they use very clumsy blunt tactics, taking heavy losses against far fewer foes that should have been easy to encircle and bypass. I know the Uruk Hai and Orcs Saruman made were just a few months old(and therefore probably not overly bright or experienced) but they really come across as exceedingly incompetent especially compared to the siege of Minas Tirith, where the Orcs did trenches, set up outside range of the defenders weapons, and wait for despair and weariness to take a toll before they launch the assault on the gate. Mordor's tactics are far more sound in the books.
@@DarthGandalfYT I thought Tolkien did this deliberately to show Saruman's incompetence at war and impotence compared with Sauron. Not just their running away at Theoden's charge, but several other things too; his plan centred on removing opponent big name leaders (fine) but ignored the smaller yet still competent commanders, after the Fords he then left these commanders along with many armed men in his rear, it didn't seem like he intended to take the Hornburg (only going there when Theoden did) even though this would have been the obvious place for the Fords' survivors to regroup and be a major thorn in his side. Sauron even seemed to assume that he would fail to take Rohan since He had organized both his own invasion and the buffer army in Anorien.
@@dominicauty5047 I'm not so sure about that. The Isengarders outperformed the Rohirrim at both battles at the Fords, and the Uruk-hai were shown to be very disciplined during the Uruk-hai chapter in the Two Towers. On a strategic level, I think Saruman mostly made the right decisions; his downfall ended up largely being the result of Gandalf's meddling, something which he couldn't do anything about once Grima was removed. If not for Gandalf, Saruman was poised to win quite easily.
@@DarthGandalfYT Without Gandalf Rohan was toast. I just thought that this showed the contrast between Saruman's and Sauron's strengths and emphasised how proud and foolish Saruman was in double-crossing him. Though I would quibble slightly. Tolkien said Saruman made a mistake in not immediately invading after the first battle of the Fords (page two of the account in my book), and in neither were the Rohirrim forced to flee entirely (at least not yet for the second). Actually, I do think Ugluk and his lads were pretty well disciplined. But wouldn't you send some of your best on such an important mission? However, despite outnumbering Eomer nearly 2:1 (only 80 were Isengarders I suppose) no orc ever took news to Isengard or Mordor, whereas Eomer lost 15 men.
I wonder how long Theoden would have taken to recover (or even if he could) without Gandalf, say if Eomer had dealt with Grima or if he'd taken a little tumble off a cliff.
Great video like always keep it up 😊
Saruman invented gunpowder.
Good video bro!
I love your videos
Cheers
Elfhelm is a weird name for a dude from Rohan. Strange but cool. Tolkien gateway has nothing on why he’s named that does anyone have any information??
I love how the old man is named Gamaling which is norwegian for old man
Can you make a video on what if orcs joined the last alliance for orcish reasons which are selfish and evil what would happen
Im going to keep asking…. Lol Can you do a Arnor population/ army size during the third age speculation video?
What Arnor, what population? Bree and the Shire are the only population centers and they didn't march out to war. The only people we know fighting are a company of thirty rangers and Elronds sons. I have no doubt there are more rangers and elves which could be called upon to fight but I would be surprised is that number was more than five hundred.
@@ryancarter1080 I should have specified, before Arnor was destroyed
@@Miami-jt2jp that is extremely hard to estimate since there are literally no hints or mentions of any numbers! All we know is Elendil landed in Eriador with his 4 ships of faithful and that the Numenorians had a few colonies in the regions like Lond Daer and Tharbad, for around 2500 years at the time of his arrival! Add to those Numenorians the „native“ middle-men of this area, the forefathers of the people of Bree and Dunland!
... and that they got decimated by intern struggles amongst Arthedain, Cardolan & Rhudaur, then Angmar, then the Great Plague!
I‘d argue, at its height, perhaps around 1 Million, given that Gondor was always the more populous realm and had more formed Numenorian colonies (and that is not 1 Million Dunedain 😉)
I'll get there eventually. I'd prefer to do population videos on realms I can more accurately guess first. The problem with Arnor is that I wouldn't have much information to go off so I'd basically be making up a lot.
oh yes... the deeping coom...
I don't care what book readers think or say, but I stay really like and never get tired of seeing Haldir and the Galadhrim Elven warriors of Lothlorien aid the Rohirrim at Helm's Deep in The Two Towers movie (2002).
We don‘t care for your opinion either ✌🏻😅
Algormancy!
I do wonder why they put the Elves in the films.
It was to show the sacrifice that the Elves were making.
@@JoshMorgantheNinja Ah right thank you
@@joshthomas-moore2656 You're welcome 🙂
a) to demonstrate that the Elves were in fact active in the war
b) to give them something to do that didn't mean leaving Rohan
c) Arwen was initially supposed to fight at Helm's Deep and some production and filming was done on a few scenes. This was found out by the Tolkien fanbase during production, and if I am remembering what I heard about this correctly, released/leaked on the old school LOTR forums back in 2002.
This pissed people off enough that they complained a lot at that time (I wasn't aware as a kid back then but heard about this later) so it was decided to cut it from the film such was the backlash. They'd been trying to give Liv Tyler stuff to do, since TFOTR (e.g. when she took Frodo to Imladris/Rivendell when really Lord Glorfindel did instead)
There is still some early filming footage of Arwen running around in the Glittering Caves looking like she was fighting Uruk-Hai breaking in, but this was soon cut. Poor Liv Tyler lol she had to stay in the staging area (Rivendell) of the Fellowship for the rest of the trilogy, being emotional and dramatic via telepathy lol
Well, at least she made sure Aragorn's blade Anduril was ready for him to use. But wait; that was basically Elrond's doing really. Arwen wasn't just a love interest she was a badass folks...right...right?! :p I can see why they tried to put her more front and centre because it was kind of weird how she kind of vanished into a secondary role when she'd been so prominent in the first film (though arguably, she'd been given too much of a spotlight in that)
But from a cinematic point of view, this makes total sense (Tolkien wasn't writing to make it convenient for film directors, he didn't give a damn about them and let everyone know)
Point being: instead of sending Arwen they sent Haldir and his elite guards.
d) PJ reduced the Rohirrim garrison from ~1,000 to ~300 for dramatic purposes (no prizes for guessing why, to increase tension and hype things up) The Elves coming along to sacrifice themselves to buy Rohan time to save itself with a Wizard's help, always struck me as moving and a good improvement in a dramatic sense. I just prefer it to how Tolkien did things for this particular battle. But had the full Rohirrim garrison been there, then it would not be as tense as you'd expect them to put up a far better fight.
Reduced to 300 men in the script by PJ in his adaptation of the books, the Rohirrim - mainly armed yeomanry, farmers and young lads - were not going to even be able to man the walls properly. 1,000 easily could but in the film it is very obvious right away that the Men are looking to have the Elves helping them,. because they can only stand in strength at the gatehouse and the Keep.
The Elves cover the Deeping Wall and Courtyard. The film version garrison of the Rohirrim, would last about half an hour without the Elves to bear the brunt of the Uruk charge on the Deeping Wall. The Rohirrim in the film are shown to barely be able to hold onto their own gatehouse and that's even with the Elves casuallyt sniping volley after volley into the Uruks attacking the gates, while they are also busy fighting for their lives on the Deeping Wall!
In other words: the way Peter Jackson portrays the garrison the Rohirrim have by themselves, comprised largely of old men and young boys, they don't stand a chance of even vaguely lasting the night. In the book, it's not nearly so one-sided against the Rohirrim defending themselves at Helm's Deep. As this video explains, they have i) many more men and ii) greater defences than are shown. Helm's Dike is almost completely omitted from the film. PJ wanted the dramatic shots of the Uruks arriving lit by lightning in the rain.
Tolkien wasn't writing for PJ's convenience though.
In my view, they could still have filmed a version where Helm's Dike was a thing. The camera could have gazed out into the darkness; the sounds of skirmishing slowly fading out, and horrifically, but few men flee back to the Hornburg, with the Uruk vanguard pikes lowered following them from the gloom, injured Rohirrim just barely getting back to the gatehouse; but this would imply they were happy to waste precious lives and with PJ making them only number 300 Rohirrim defending Helm's Deep in his version, then clearly not one of them would step foot outside the main fortress against 10,000 Uruks. That'd just be wasteful as obviously they'd never stand a chance.
e) To remind the audience of the alliance and actually do something to show that alliance. Now, the Lorien Elves/Galadhrim aren't exactly best mates with the Rohirrim, but canonically, Lorien just by existing, North of the Entwash and the Wold, is a serious strategic buffer zone which helps Rohan indirectly/directly just by being where it is. Rohan is largely shielded from the worse excesses of the Mordor fortress of Dol Guldur on Amon Lanc, in Southern Mirkwood, by the very presence of Lorien. Rohan would get invaded a whole lot more if not for Lorien. So in a weird way, it is cool that at least in the film version, the Elves go to aid the Rohirrim - who might not even realise how much they owe the Elves.
f) Weta Workshop made some really snazzy Third Age Elven Armour for the Galadhrim Elves. They were definitely going to show that off one way or another.
P.S - cos it's cool (something PJ also definitely was thinking about, the 'sweet mayne it's cool, mayne' factor)
Also also: little known fact - if you look closely in the Battle of the Morannon photo stills, you can see some Rohirrim carrying Elven (specifically, Galadhrim) banners. The in-film adaptation only lore on this, is that the Rohirrim carried Elven banners to commemorate and honour the Elves who sacrificed themselves completely to buy time for them.
Not a single Elven warrior from Lorien survived the Battle for Helm's Deep/Battle of the Hornburg. _How convenient_ :p the non-canon film only inclusion, was cleaned up by being wiped out. But I love the idea of the Rohirrim carrying their banners out of respect to honour them as late as the Morannon/Black Gates. I mean, it's certainly not just that the props department chucked any banner they had at the extras and a few accidentally happened to be Elven (lol) Heaven forfend that possibility!
("That's not true that's iMpOsSiBlE!" - Luke Skywalker)
I mean it might just be a fan theory but I like it anyway, always have.
@@ThePalaeontologist Thats a very informative answer thank you, I wasn't aware Arwen was meant to originally be there so thank you for that. I do think you could have kept them and original garrison but it is what it is and the battles still good in the movie.
Anyone find it surprising Gimli doesn't fight Dunlendings because of their size? I understand orcs are smaller in stature but dwarves of the first age could take on elves!
I have a theory for this - Durin's Folk dwelt in Dunland for about thirty years or so during their exile from Erebor. Gimli wasn't born there, but Gloin probably was. Perhaps Gimli was trying to avoid fighting the Dunlendings due to the fact that they had once housed Durin's Folk in their lands.
Don't mess with groot
Question! Why did they showed elves of Lorien coming to Helms deep in the movies if they weren’t there in the books ?
It was to show the sacrifices of the Elves on screen during the War of the Ring.
The usual thing; for the visuals and the drama (and Elves fighting totally in sync is also cgi friendly 😅)! And they already used Haldir, so why cast new characters when you simply can reuse others? We can almost say what a luck they didn‘t use Celeborn, Galadriels husband, for this kamikaze mission
Concerning Helms Deep, they changed a lot in the movies!
Gandalf in the books specifically motivates Theoden to go there, in the movies, he basically says it’s foolish and a death trap!
09:55 😳🥴
For some reason I was unsubscribed from you
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