I was at my local HD dealer talking to my salesman and he they haven’t sold a single bike this month. It goes to show you how badly motorcycle manufacturers relied on cheap financing. When you could get 2% loans, manufacturers raised prices because money was “cheap” and they knew they could get away with it. Now even with good credit you’re looking at 8% or 10% loan rates. People who can afford the high prices also know those interest rates are a rip off.
Agreed, the only way to compete is to lower the price of the bikes instead of relying on a brand name being enough to get people to part with their spare money 🤷♂️
@@splashpit I hope you're being sarcastic/making a joke. Anyone would guess that the OP made a mistake in writing the sentence and what they meant to write was "he SAID they haven't sold a single bike this month". Mind you, who's gonna buy a motorcycle in the middle of winter, with all the snow and ice we've had. I haven't gone out on a bike ride in about 6 weeks...
@@wsmv Both..... Snow flakes just want a paycheck, they expect it, but they don't want to work, have a good work ethic, nor are they as productive or willing to hustle. Pretty much the Lazy generation.
HD Management is living in a fools paradise where they think they can keep pumping out large numbers of expensive bikes ,most people cant afford and younger generation of ''buyers'' are not interested in bikes ,HD will be gone in 10 or 15 years ,look at KTM ,more to come
It's a very worrying trend, ktm always seemed to be selling new bikes, very likely another part of their company hemorrhaging money and the ktm brand took the hit ☹️
The market is flooded with bikes. I've seen some really nice ones for three grand I've seen some amazing ones for five grand. Don't need to spend any more than that.
Went to my local GMC-Buick dealer. There are spending 4 million dollars to 'modernize' their dealership up to GM standards. You used to buy a vehicle in a place that smelled of grease and looked grimy, but you could afford the product. Now the dealers look like a five star hotel but you can't afford the product. How long will that last?
Your take is SPOT ON. What we see in it is well heeled highly paid Dealership owners managers & Corporate managers who are SO separated economically (insulated) from Mr & Mrs Average Customer that they cannot and worse WILL NOT relate to us. The Elephant they ignore is that today most car / truck / motorcycle new sales are discretionary - meaning driven NOT by genuine deep need but rather the shallower titillation for "new" or new bells & whistles. But in the face of tough economic times those shallow sales soften, dry up & blow away - and the average guy can just keep driving his current rig another season or 5 or 10 ! POOF - they're out of business in a blink.
Sign of the times that the current community want glitz and bright lights when buying but don't want the price that comes with it. Something has to give, I'm happy to buy a new bike from a shed if the price is right 🤷♂️
@wsmv INDEED. Somebody has to "pay the piper". For me, the answer has always been, but clean used & depreciated garage queens. I've always gotten smokin deals / never got taken - (unless I failed to inspect properly, my bad, only happened once in probably 80 purchases over my 60 years) and have always ridden DEBT FREE. I did buy twice new, a Ram truck & an 1987 LT500 "Quadzilla" but only because for a season I made stupid $$$ and didn't want to wait. Being a lurker with cash pays off because so many luck impulse control, buy too many bikes they can't afford & the wife gets mad and pretty soon the guys crying to get out of debt, garage cleared etc, Viola your golden opportunity....
💯. Although Indian and Chinese brands are still struggling to gain a foothold here in the USA, very much the same thing is taking place when it comes to prestige brands, including Harley Davidson, they are simply pricing themselves out of the market. Motorcycle commuters are few and far between here, as most use motorbikes as toys. It is not looking good for the expensive brands.
It seems to be a worldwide pandemic of the product outpricing the market. I'd love to see some decent entry level HD's hit the showrooms like the bronx, that would open up a whole new generation of HOG members that will spend a fortune on the merchandise that harley makes its money from 🤞
It is unfortunate that bike brands are attempting to force dealerships into these exclusive one-make establishments. The dealership that I used to go to in Stratford Upon Avon used to be a great place to spend time looking at the variety of used machines that they had and also the wide clothing ranges that they sold. You could even get a cracking bacon butty outside and socialise with other bikers. Now I occasionally pop into their up-market dealership for a few minutes just to get something specific.. The used market is now dominated and ruined by awful box-shifting warehouses that don't allow test rides, try to charge admin fees for merely doing their jobs and make no attempt to build a relationship with customers. I have no wish to give them my hard-earned!
Totally agree mate, I may not buy brand new bikes but I still like to drool around showrooms and then spend a fortune on another harley t shirt or ducati helmet. When the main dealers dissappear so will the merchandise that we love so much ☹️
Totally agree Phil. I guess the other issue is us middle to fair aged riders are becoming few and far apart and the majority of younger people are scared of their own shadow let alone riding a bike where you can't text or watch tv when your riding down the road 🫣😅
Rubbish. Young people do all kind of dangerous stuff when they can afford it. They are just, by and large, less exposed to the idea of riding a bike - a problem that just reinforces itself of course as popularity of motorcycles diminishes - and there are significant financial hurdles to owning and riding one.
It's a really interesting subject, I have touched on it a couple of times. For me the issue is the following factors Initial cost of bikes: new bikes are far too complicated and expensive, they need to have more options, bikes that look good, sound good and handle well for the Sunday warrior, I think Honda are getting there with the new Hornet CB100O under £10K even for the SP version, I reckon they will sell in droves! Next up is servicing costs: Manufacturers are adamant you have to go to a an approved dealership for a service to keep your warranty, why? Dealerships are now so few and far between it puts people off, not to mention the cost! Chinese and Indian bikes: like you said these guys are immune and the reason is cost! They cost less to buy look pretty good and when you look at the Royal Enfield's pure simplicity! So like you say what happens next? Seems Crazy HD and Yamaha wanting their own showroom's that wont work, you need competition. Also what if you come to look at a Honda but a Yamaha Catches your eye?
It's super short sighted in my opinion, brand like HD have the ability to develope and sell good quality entry level bikes, that will then breed loyalty in ownership. Imagine a HD to compete with the Japanese on price and quality, they have the plans just won't go into production. It's like triumph now selling these entry level bikes that are flying out of the showroom, people can afford them, but when they are ready to upgrade triumph will be the first manufacturer they look at because they've already bought the t shirt, jacket, lunchbox etc 🤷♂️
The idea that in the future we will order a bike we haven't ridden can't work for a lot of people. I have never, and will never, buy a bike without some kind of test ride. I think half the problem is simply price. The prices are heading skywards whilst people (in this country) are getting less disposable income. When a good, cheap bike comes along, it causes a stir. The big manufacturers need to spot that and adjust accordingly.
The three big Japanese brands are selling lots of excellent smaller cheaper bikes but mainly in Asia and South America. Europeans and North Americans are still buying bigger bikes. Watch TH-cam reviews and listen to the lust for big bad bikes. Nothing much has really changed. I bought a used GT550 in 1979. If I had had more money I would have bought a car. That would have been cheaper than buying a new BMW, Ducati or Harley Davidson. Hobby riders are driving the market upwards.
@CalmBiker, Look back at what happened after Convid when chips were in short supply. Bikes never put rubber on showroom floors, to get one at all buyers had to pre- order . Their only impression of their purchase gained from biased reviews, by bought and paid for TH-cam reviewers. Only after purchase did they find out about inherent faults. Then manufacturers stopped including many accessories, choosing to make them additional extras. They've shot themselves in the foot and unless they get back to offering value for money, they'll suffer. Honda has stepped up to the plate with the new 1,000cc Honda Hornet, the fully spec'd model priced a fraction under £10,000. I predict they'll outsell all other manufacturers put together in 2025.
From what I hear everything is expensive in the states. I was in NYC last March and was shocked how much everything cost. I thought it was just NYC but been told its accross the country 😔
When governments continually deficit spend and Central Banks print money to allow those governments to over spend the wealth of the ordinary taxpayer is extracted through inflation. Some wealth transfer is through taxes but mostly it is inflation, which debases the currency you work hard for and try to save. We are all getting poorer and that is rapidly becoming evident.
Artificial fiscal spending is never going to end well, and only serves to a bigger crash when it happens. You'd think being the enlightened generation we are that we would have learned from the past by now 🤷♂️
At one time most dealers carried multiple lines of motorcycles, and at least here in Canada, restricting dealers to one line of motorcycles has almost killed the industry. I live in a city of about 50,000 people, and the nearest Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, and Triumph dealers are all about 100 miles away. In the case of Harley Davidson, while Harley has always done well with it's dealerships in the past, their dealership structure hurts them if they wanted to bring out less expensive beginner bikes, because the existing dealerships have become accustomed to large dealer markups, and they have no interest in selling bikes that don't have huge markups. Clearly if Harley did want to sell inexpensive motorcycles, they would need to explore different marketing options, and the obvious one would be to tag into existing multi-brand dealerships. I do agree that motorcycles have become too big, too expensive, and too intimidating and the success of the 650 Royal Enfield twins, and more recently the Triumph/Bajaj 400 cc singles shows that there still is a market for smaller, less expensive motorcycles. Personally I ride a 2005 Suzuki Bandit 650. I'm not claiming that it's the best bike ever, or even a particularly good bike, but it works for me, and the cost of ownership is very manageable.
I think the smaller capacity bikes from the far east and India will become even more sought after as the bigger manufacturers slow down production. It's unlikely they will reduce their prices which the Chinese and budget brands will capitalise on 🤷♂️
I just typed out a nice response, then my hand bumped the wrong button and POOF, it was gone. I'm not going to retype it all. Suffice it to say that I agree with you.
Thank you my friend, it may be regional rather than global, but it'll be a sad day when icon's like HD pull out of the UK because they have no dealers ☹️
Up here in Worcestershire we have lost loads of dealerships.. Ducati and kawasaki in Worcester, streetbike in Halesowen.. Blade who had a multi franchise dealership in Swindon closed a few days ago.... I have a yamaha, and no longer have a local dealer.. I think as said by others the problem is multi faceted.. Age demographics, prices etc.. Plus I too heard manufacturers want their own showroom, in corporate colours, at the dealers expense. Our local Triumph Dealer has changed 3 times due to this.. One dealer paid approximately 250k for it Triumph showroom.. It sadly folded..
I have had far more fun on cheap bikes than i have ever had on ‘prestige’ models. I am financially reasonably comfortable but if I were to go out and spend £20k on a new bike I would never want to do anything that put it at risk of theft damage or deterioration. Used, low mileage bikes are cheap at the moment, so my advice is, forget about the badge, status and prestige, buy a used one, ride the wheels off it and bask in the glory of how little money you spent.
Hi Harry, I've had new bikes in the past and you're right, there's always a fear of the damage you could do to your pride and joy. Now I could afford a new bike, but it would be at the low end of the market, I have just as much fun riding a bike that has done its wearing in and has a few marks on it which I didn't do 🤣
Precisely my mode. Loving my 2008 Suzuki V-Strom 650 - one owner perfect condition garage queen bought for $3600 2 years ago. Never breaks or fails - I've added 20,000 miles (almost a Daily rider) and have changed tires once, new chain & fluid changes. I'll NEVER buy a new bike. WHY oh why would I throw my money away ? In 3 years I'll look for about a 2014-2020 Late Gen V-Strom 800 & be done.
I'm a youngish biker at 33. I've been riding since I was 19. Bikes are a hobby for me but I also have a wife and a mortgage. New motorcycles are far too expensive to justify the expenditure, particularly when you can buy a used Japanese bike of any variety and if you look after it well enough it'll last you a long long time. Why buy new? New bikes are the reserve of people who need the latest or greatest thing on the spec sheet and probably can't utilise the bikes full potential anyway. This is all compounded by the cost of borrowing increasing and those new PCP deals don't look so tempting anymore.
Spot on in everything you say, I'm not a fan of the new pcp/lease deals because I like the opportunity to own the bike, but I can see the idea behind it and I'm sure it works for some 👍
Just as an aside - regarding cost of motorcycles - when I first started looking at buying a bike, for total transport and leisure use, a Norton 750 Commando was the same price as a Mini car. So when you look at bike prices that comparison with car prices is still valid. Although new car sales are down, along with new everything else.
Remember that the new CEO of Harley said they were going to make more profit by selling less bikes at higher cost..... I know they are selling less, not sure of company profit, but hey, at least they got 50% of it right! They are pricing themselves out of their core market of buyers, but I think they want them to buy used HD and let the doctors and lawyers buy new. Of course some just know they are getting ripped off at those prices and buy something else. I would never buy a Harley even though I like the bikes, but reliability is low, prices are sky high and value for $ is very low ($5000 for special color paint is ridiculous). I bought a 2023 Triumph leftover (Tiger 900gt) and got a great deal instead. If Harley goes bankrupt, I won't care.
Prices are high true, but I have to say at 6o yrs old and the owner of a dozen different motorcycles( 6 of them being Harleys) they are plenty reliable, but then again they were all EVO's!
@@gtb5216 Wow, you must have paid a mighty sum for all those EVO's! I do not have personal experience with a Harley, but a friend of mine had one- nothing but trouble, so he sold it and bought a Honda ST1100- not trouble from it. I am also in your age group- multiple dual sports for me and a couple of street bikes, but nothing of the cost of a (new) Harley.
Sometimes wonder what goes through the minds of some of these "top level" business leaders. Look at china's and Indias model, low price, sell loads, invest in development. Seems too much like common sense to me 🤷♂️
It's not necessarily HD I'm worried about, it's all the people around the world who rely on selling them or their merchandise just to keep a roof over their heads and feed their family 🤷♂️
I'm not picking on your channel in particular but all these doom and gloom industry videos don't talk about the obvious elephant in the room. We're now just ten years away from the end of motorcycles as we know it (hopefully 15), 125s may be gone in just 5 years! Whether you accept that or not, it's current UK and EU policy. All retailers will start to wind down and get out of the business before the only thing available is little electric Chinese commuters you can get mail order or from little shops. If you're thinking you'll just carry on for years on a reliable old bike, they'll tax them off the road in the same way they got rid of old Discovery's and Range Rovers by making road tax 4 figures a year. Enjoy it while you can
As much as you're currently correct , I'm still hoping for a synthetic or bio fuel alternative 🤞 There will be a climb down because they will lose too much money from fuel duty. Plus remember we already have an age limit where cars and bikes over a certain age are tax and mot excempt 🤷♂️
I think it's only the end of Biking as we know it for people who let their politicians dole out their rights or rescind them at will. In other words you're letting your politicians determine your principles rather than demanding that your principles create your politicians. God bless England and the UK where are all my relatives came from but I will say you need to learn from the USA Patriots that told the government hell no ! The only purpose of government according to our constitution is to secure the rights of the governed. NOTE: Not act like they're the Source of those Rights. Per Jefferson in our esteemed Declaration of Independence, human rights come from GOD Our Creator and are Inalienable - NO man gets to cancel or modify / minimize them, period. Then they went on to list them in the Bill of Rights and require EVERY elected official to uphold them upon their solemn Oath. (look them up - which one covers the right to ride cool motorcycles ? It's there...). So, my British Brothers, change your Doctrine, your mind, fire your old, bad (Marxist / Collectivist) representatives, hire new GOOD ones & keep your old & new motorcycles ! In the Holy Cause of Liberty - David "V-Strom" in Texas
I bought a new Harley Breakout 114ci in 2020 for the best part of £16,500. Harley now sell the new Breakout (pretty much the same apart from the new one being a 117ci) for a staggering £25,000! My local dealership are trying their best to "upgrade" me to a new Breakout, but I can't justify buying the same bike for nearly 10 grand more!
I'll stick to riding my 2011 XL883N, which I bought new and my 2009 XR1200 which I bought from a mate last summer. There isn't one motorcycle in H-D's 2025 portfolio that I'd even consider buying, they don't appeal to me in the slightest. I remember the day's when there were more customers for H-D's than the factory could produce, you had to wait month's to get one. Incidentally, Royal Enfield have sold almost one million motorcycles in 2024, a real success story for the Indian owned marque.
RE have done amazingly, but only due to its low end price point I would imagine. HD seem he'll bent on making a prestige name etched in stone just by making their bikes more expensive and harder to get hold of new 🤷♂️ not sure its a great business plan though
From someone in the business it's far more complex a situation in the UK. I'd actually go and talk to these main dealers rather than assume what the lay of the land looks like.
Hi Davy, yes there will always be more going on in the background, but an alarming number of sites are closing or relinquishing their franchise due to the unrealistic expectations from the manufacturers. I work in the motor industry and know exactly how much pressure can be excerted on the retailer, and how much it costs. The car main dealer side of the market has exactly the same issues. Thanks for watching and commenting, if there's any info you can share about the situation, then I can add to an update video, westonsupermotovlog@gmail.com Many thanks 👍
We lost Pidcocks in Nottingham, which ran 3 dealerships. Triumph, Ducati, and BMW. I hear the BMW showroom has been bought by Moto GB to sell various Chinese and second-hand bikes. The premium brands need to look at prices, service costs and this sole dealership model. The Chinese are doing to the traditional brands what the Japanese did to the British bike industry.
The market is evolving, changing, and HD is trying to figure out how to adapt with bikes like the PanAmerica, for a new group of riders, while still serving its core customers. This is no easy feat
Good Lord, WS...I mean Spaghetti Weston! How have I missed thi... ahh probably because I took time out between Oct and err now. I wasn't aware Yamaha have gone from Bransons, I will check that, perhaps he meant kawasaki, gone into Admin (completely motoring ltd). Cost of living, inflation, doom budget, ingress of Chinese/Indian made brands making legacy brands look expensive. Just some of the factors I guess. Welcome back!
Thanks buddy, and the same back at ya. It's good to take a break and regroup every now and then. I had to detox from YT because it was beginning to rule my life. Yeah let us know about bransons, sad to see any retailer shut or lose a franchise, I remember motocorsa seemed to dissappear overnight 😔
Same thing here in Wellington, NZ. For a while, maybe over a year there was no HD dealer in this part of the North Island. The closest was over 4 hour ride away from the capital city! My favourite motorcycle dealer though, has a blend of Triumph and Indian. Just up the road from that, there is a Royal Enfield/Ducati dealer. If I want a Honda, nope, the local dealer gave up the franchise because of the requirement for exclusivity. Same for Yamaha for a while, but they must have come to their senses, as Yamaha is back in a blend with Kawasaki, MV Augusta etc among others.
I genuinely more of them see sense before it's too late, When you walk into a dealership it's a choice of which brand you go to, if there are no dealers there is no choice 🤷♂️
I have a multi franchise dealer near me, they also no longer stock Yamaha, got myself a new Honda last year as a second winter hack (350 Forza Scooter) plan to replace the other bike this year as getting a bit old - looking at world sales, some parts of the world are still doing fine, we are certainly being squeezed financially, not helped by our current government increasing costs for businesses. Used to have a HD dealer, they have gone, now the do Indian and Royal Enfield.
One thing about Harley is they built themselves on an image of the outlaw biker, the leather wearing tough-guy image that nobody wants today and Harley isn't trying to change. A new era of cheap Asian bikes is beginning. China and India see an opening. The Harley dealership here on Hawai'i closed about ten years ago and you just don't see that many on the road now except for the occasional group/holiday weekend ride.
Nowdays Harley's are more like 60 year old retired dentist bike. And you know how young people don't like things their grandparents like, and young people don't have the kind of money they are asking for anyway.
Eastern Western Motor Group in Edinburgh just announced in the last few days they will be giving up their Harley and Kawasaki Franchises (it was a shared building) . They will continue to operate their car franchises.
Hey Google, take me to a motorbike shop that is still open!! Purely down to supply and demand! High end bikes are in supply BUT NOT demand, low to mid range bikes are in supply AND IN demand! It’s not rocket science but clearly some manufacturers are on a different planet! Nothing wrong with my 28yr old VFR750 or 11yr old VFR1200X. Money well spent. Do I have a modern affordable alternative to those, I think not. Go steady bud 👋 12:54
All great words mate, and great bikes to have in the garage too, like you say you could spend £20k trying to replace either of those bikes and still fall short of what they are capable of. Thanks for watching my friend, and very much appreciate the comments 👍
The mixture of corporate greed and bad economy is creating this mess. I think you are absolutely right that the used market will last us a long time. Until the greed heads can figure out what's what, we have old bikes :)
And there are so many good old bikes out there. Generally when we buy a new bike it's because we want something different not necessarily un touched. Give me a 1990 fireblade over a brand new s1000 any day of the week 😁👍
It's a tough time to be selling expensive discretionary items. Incomes haven't kept up with inflation, particularly inflation on necessities. Honestly, something like a Harley or a Ducati doesn't look like too expensive if you look at how much they haven't gone up compared to a pound of potatoes or a month's rent or a mortgage repayment. We are in austere times. "Value" has become a far higher purchasing consideration for a much bigger proportion of the market than it was a few years ago. People either can't pay for high end goods or they're attempting to keep as much dry powder as they can, or they don't have any money at all to spend on a toy, credit or no credit. One might have dreamed of buying a new HD next year, only a few years ago. I suspect that many of those same people are now dreaming of buying an RE next year, but wouldn't turn down a good used GB 350 Honda... at the right price. Is Harley Davidson in trouble? They have made some grave mistakes in recent years. The LIvewire development was a disaster that robbed the company of oxygen. And their failure to develop a line of motorcycles around the now extinct Revolution engine is now looking particularly short sighted. But none of that really matters if HD can scale their business to a shrinking market and remain profitable. When I say, "none of that matters", I mean it doesn't matter so much if you're on the board of directors. If you're a local dealer, it matters a lot. The reality is, they're in trouble. Their sales can't fall, but will. And if you're an investor, it's not such great news, either. But if you are an investor, there's always that mob in India... Eicher motors. They own a small brand called Royal Enfield. It could be worth a look, because through my eyes, that's what the short to medium term of motorcycling looks like it's going to be.
It's definitely an interesting time, and the people who have disposable cash are generally adverse to risk and discomfort like riding a motorcycle. Gonna be a rocky road for sure, hopefully we will all come out alive 🤞
I live in the States, and there are so many good use HD's for a lot less money $ the new HD's or too expensive. And people can't afford a $25.000 HD when you can get an older nice bike for $5,000 .
I know, my sportster was bought at a great price over here because there's no way I could afford new (or even nearly new) but there are so many people that can if there is a dealership to sell them 👍
I think two things are happening here! Cost of living crisis is stopping people afford luxury of a second vehicle ( as not many ride bikes all year). The next for me is superbike factory, you can buy any second hand bike from there it’s like a one stop shop but for me I couldn’t as they have a no test ride policy…but going what you said it’s like a click and collect. New bikes are just stupidly pricey and everyone knows you save thousands buying second hand and if you’re patient you’ll find what you want.
Yeah the superbike factory seem to have a good business plan (except for no test rides) but they buy a lot of bikes that are higher mileage or no history and then give no warranty unless you pay extra. I don't know the exact details but this will probably be the model for the future as less new bikes are sold, the mileage on used will increase 🤷♂️
I'll continue to ride my 22 year old Triumph Bonneville and my 18 year old Harley Dyna! The local H-D dealership in Norwich closed a year ago, nearest one to me now is Newmarket which is a 140 mile round trip. Main dealers keep nothing in stock parts wise for the Dyna and same for the Triumph so I'll keep buying what I need online and doing my own service and repairs. I have no plans to drop £50k on a Harley CVO! lol
Interesting vid.....Hondas been playing this "Solus showroom" game for years......I bought a used Crosstourer from Yeovil ( Holeshot). Great guys but apparently absorbed into "Completely" and we know how well that's gone🏍️💨💨🤬 P.S. Marsh Yamaha in Exeter never had more than half a dozen used bikes in their shop so no surprise they've gone to the wall as part of the same group as Plymouth Harley and Triumph...hopefully the old Honda shop in Newton will keep supplying good older bikes for us dinosaurs🦖🏍️💨💨👍
Hi Nikki, it's quite worrying how many dealers in the southwest have either given up they franchise or closed the doors completely. And then when you look further affixed the same has happened in Swindon, Oxford and Reading. Soon we will only have fowlers and small independent used dealers to choose from. 😔
Good points. I think HD wants its dealerships to become some kind of exclusive lifestyle place and require their dealerships to have a certain look and feel where they sell bikes and apparel. That takes huge money and not something that goes well when mixed with other brands or sold along with competing products. It really sucks for the dealerships and resellers who just want to sell bikes. But that is the price they are commanding. Regarding prices... they went up quite a bit this year on the new models which also suck because many of their grand touring machines are already super expensive and now they are just a bit more out there. Sucks about KTM and what they are going through right now. In Harley's case and with KTM they have just lost touch with the very things that made them successful and then took a dump on them. For example, the DEI stuff is now being walked way back and so is the EV nonsense. Political winds combined with a huge amount of greed and being out of touch of what their customers want. They are just living in some dream land where they sell things to a corporate board that is only focused on making money. Bottom line they will all suffer a bit until they can correct to what the market will support. I would love to have a new Road Glide but I can only afford a used Pan American... and then there is the wife to deal with too.
I love the current (and older) range of harleys, and the product is a high quality even though some would argue that. But making unrealistic expectations on private dealers is totally unnecessary and short sighted. They do sell a lifestyle, but that lifestyle was there from tiny little bike shops to huge dealerships, and HD seem hell bent on selling to only the high end buyer now. There are tens of thousands of potential lifelong HD community riders that won't get the chance because of a lack of locations to buy them 🤷♂️
It's not just new bikes, second hand bikes aren't selling well either. I have seen perfectly good machines in dealers, reasonably priced, still in there months later. I just think that people's standard of living has taken a battering over the last few years, and motorcycles to most are not a necessity.
Sadly this is very true David, manufacturers need to understand this, dealers are in the same financial difficulty as the customers, and asking them to spend a fortune to meed corporate identity standards is crazy. 🤔
The seeds were down in the 1970's and now we are reaping the result and there is no cure. I can remember the start, restricting 50cc's to 30mph, what were viable motorcycles were now machines wobbling in the gutter. Further convoluted and expensive license restrictions put off youngsters, my 2 sons have been around my bikes all their lives, but bought cars, less hassle. Now the older are dying, no new blood and it's all come to a head, manufactures making ever heavier and complicated bikes for a market that doesn't want them, didn't help. New sales are desperate because there isn't the customer base to trade the used ones to!
There does seem to be a real lack of youth coming into the market. The increase in restrictive laws and anti fun devices make motorcycling much less exciting even if it is a bit safer 🤷♂️
My local HD dealer has just closed, and the next nearest dealer has closed as well. If I'd known the dealer was going to close I wouldn't have bought one.
And this is where it hits real people that now have added expense and lost time (the only thing we can't buy more of) because of the unrealistic expectations on retailers by manufacturers 😡
Not just the bikes being offered and the cost. A lot of problems at the moment, no young blood, impossible licensing, Service costs, Insurance nonsense, grossly unfair road tax......
All retail business will be on its arse very soon. It's not just bikes - it's every leisure activity now, soon followed by the car industry, then simply everything else. We as a country are in a recession but nobody will admit it. Static tax allowances, static wages and rampant inflation is the cause, but our MP's are all oblivious because it doesn't' affect them. They are financially immune.
In a recession now?...more than mate, its actually a planned demolition of the country, economy and its people...same is planned for the entire western world....''great reset'', ''build back better'', ring any bells.
And Reading HD went earlier last year, and these are amazing showrooms that are proud to sell such stunning bikes. Sadly the UK market sees to be a small one, but no dealerships means no sales 🤷♂️ Very short sighted in my opinion ☹️
No Harley is not in self destruct mode. These.videos have been coming out for the last 20 years. Harley will always have a market in USA, albeit reduced.
Hi John, the acceptance of a reduced market is the overall problem. If they reduced costs and dealer expectations, they would create the same profit from more bikes, but that in turn creates more aftersales income from parts, servicing, accessories, and HD's big earner, clothing and merchandise. Nobody will buy a $70 HD t shirt , when they ride a royal Enfield meteor 🤷♂️
Harley is dying on the vine in Texas. Their sky high prices, effort to "sell a lifestyle", refusal to have any simple affordable entry level bikes (only luxo boat cruisers of spotty quality & reliability) + a swaggering arrogant attitude. A new HD is simply a "look how MUCH I can throw away" Virtue signal for affluent retirees which are going extinct faster than Kamala's campaign last November. Bye bye HD
In 1990s Harley Davidson in the U.S. forced out their long time Mom and Pop dealers out. They gave dealerships to a lot of owners of large car dealerships who could build the big boutique dealerships. Triumph also did a similar maneuver in 2014 but backed up when a lot of dealerships gave up Triumph.
I used to ride Harley Davidson and loved mine and then I discovered it would not do a wheelie at any speed. I went out and bought an old Goldwing. She’s a wheelie monster without even intending from now on I am only going to ride Goldwing.
Is it worth the investment in fancy single brand motorcycle dealerships with the UK 2030 ICE ban. I believe motorcycles are to get another 5 years to 2035, but who knows if that is set in stone. However, the really killer of sales is inflation and tax rises, driving down disposable income, or worse, job loses. Frankly, it's not a good time for any retailer.
I think China has a 90+% hold on the EV market for cars, Tesla are tiny compared to China. I said this on another vid the other day, I think it is time for a total shake up that would make the bike shows like NEC/Excel/Festival of Motorcycling/etc relevant once again. We need to get shot of local dealerships and instead have authorised service centres locally and then have manufacturer roadshows like in the USA offering guided demo rides. Then have a central hub for each manufacturer who deliver the bikes to the service centre to do the PDI. It isn't something I want, but I can't see anything else working. You are right utterly though, bikes are getting very expensive in the UK and because of this, the customer base is just getting older... which means the manufaturers just cater for the aging customer base. Hopefully with the influx of some pretty cool A2 bikes and mid sized dualsports/adv/sport bikes will get some younger folk back into bikes. Sadly, people have been tricked into thinking unless you have a 200+bhp sportsbike, you can't go fast, or a huge BMW GS you can't travel, or a bloated adv bike you can't have adventures. Something I really want to do is get shot of my large cc bikes (ok I will keep Daffy ((which is sort of a budget bike so sort of fits the plan)) LOL), and get a couple of different styles of A2 bike to just show how much fun can be had with them, on track, in the dirt and travelling/adventuring.
Everything 100% spot on, I can't add to it but just think the cool A2 bikes are gonna come from China which means new riders should be able to afford them 🤞
My local Indian dealership in the USA cannot order new bikes, if you want an Indian you order it from the factory and have it delivered to said dealership. No new bikes to look at or test ride. My Harley Davidson dealership inTN solved this problem by buying the bikes themselves and having them for sale. A large capital investment for sure, but it works. Any bikes left over each year are either wholesaled or severely discounted to get rid of them. This works fine as this dealership of three stores does quite well.
Thats a great plan, but as you said a huge investment from the dealership. Here in the UK we are losing HD dealers at an alarming rate. I worry we soon won't have a new HD market. Are retailers in the US struggling with sales?
Such a shame to see all these dealerships closing down, and the ones that remain having to drop brands because they can't justify the manufacturers demands. I won't buy a brand new bike anymore, I don't keep them long enough and lose out big time when I sell them. I'll buy bikes that are a couple of years old and already taken that big hit in value. I can only see the Chinese brands getting stronger.
Sales of bikes in Asia are flourishing, Weston, but only for low to medium capacity machines. I agree with you that European pricing is ridiculous. Added to that we have the Euro 5+ rubbish. There is also of course this stupid country consecutive governments of which have demonised motorcycles. Harley have shot themselves in the foot in more ways than one. There is the distribution method you mentioned and their reluctance to produce different genres of machine instead of their mainstream half ton cruiser type.
Probably. R. In the uk you have to factor in the costs of a liscence and all the other stuff, as well as the bike. There are many other bikes than HD and indian which is all that is spoken about. I happen to like bikes that go and handle and are reliable and are good on fuel, and have plenty of horsepower without having to add 10k worth of extras. R
I bought a new V-Strom 800DE in 2023. Inside of 6 months the frame was rusting and the spokes had tarnished. If this is "new bike quality", I won't buy another new one.
Isn't that going to be extremely seasonal because of the weather? Would be very hard to create a viable business that only operates for a section of the year, especially if the manufacturer puts unrealistic expectations on the 🤷♂️
My take , I live 30 miles north of Milwaukee. Since hiring new CEO in 2020 he ruined the company. I went to HD party last year on 1945 U Flathead out of respect for Willie G 's birthday only. I will not participate this year at all or ever. Until Yohan Zikes + Board of Directors are fired by Owners who are the share holders now I believe.
David, it's awesome to get a comment from someone so close the ground zero of this problem, thank you. HD is a global brand that should be able to rest on its history and quality to sell bikes and merchandise, but it seems like they are hell bent on stripping the network down to its bare minimum which won't end well. Stay safe my friend and I hope the winter isn't hitting you too hard over there 👍
That one you're talking about was the first HD dealer that I bought a t short from, starting a collection from around the world. So sad to see it go because it was a stunning showroom 😢
Hey mate just letting you know the Indan FTR is no longer being made there sellout all the stock they have which is estimated to about the middle of this year and then second hand will be all there is. Anyway have a good one
Ok, I'm a bit of an old poop, I've seen them come and go, a few times. I can assure you that motorcycle sales are cyclic in nature, you make hay while the sun shines, and hopefully, when the sun isn't shining, you have some of that hay in the barn to see you through. Economically we have been in a recession since 2020, first thing to go, in a recession, are things not necessary, and motorcycles are that. Harley Davidson has always had a fairly loose grip on reality, but it's that loose grip that keeps them going when others have thrown in the towel. This time the current bikes have been given a double dose of technology, which effectively tethers the bikes to dealerships, for updates and what have you, so the numbers of dealers might decrease, but a dealership will be required to service the things. So, don't worry about it. The upside to this is, there should be some pretty good deals on used bikes............................
Hey George, you sound like you've got some experience around the comings and goings of the HD life cycle. I love the brand, would love to own a new one, but simply can't afford it. But right now I believe there are less than a dozen HD dealers in the country, and I fear that when the market starts to come back they won't reopen as they've moved on to pastures more budget oriented. I hope the changes there will happen sooner now with changes in government. Perhaps DT should start wearing a "Make Harley great again" hat 😎👍
@@wsmv I really don't like buying a thing, be it a motorcycle, or a computer, that keeps you tethered to a dealer because of the unnecessary technology. There was a time, back in the '70s, when HD had only 2 customers, law enforcement, and outlaws. They grew the brand from there, making HD more mainstream, but it's transient and not dependable, especially in these tough economic times. Save what cash you can, who knows, a steal of a deal might come your way? In my 60 years of riding I've owned only 2 new motorcycles.
Triumph are selling loads of there 400s. Hondas new 1000 hornet is a hell of a proposition. People are broke but still want to bike. Some manufacturers realised this and are reacting. Harley just put there prices up! They need entry level and accessible or they are finished.
The difficulty in getting a full big bike licence really doesn't help getting younger people interested in bikes when a nice and warm car is easier to get, and your girlfriend/boyfriend would probably rather sit in a comfortable, warm seat than perched on the back of a cold motorcycle. New bikes are ridiculously overpriced too, the prices are scary high for the type of model of bikes that would entice people to dream about owning one of them. When you see your dream bike costs over £25,000 to £35,000 it's not a surprise that's going to put a lot of potential buyers off from doing so. Personally ive not got a car, nor a car license, ive always ridden motorbikes since passing my test in the early 90s. But youngsters dont think like that now, bikes arent looked at as being cool, but dangerous machines, that are expensive and no one wants to get cold and wet on a bike, they'd rather be warm and dry in a car.... 🤷
Sadly we are in a different world where peoples fear of risk is much greater than it ever used to be. Apparently life is precious these day, in my day if it was your time then so be it 🤣 I'm proud that my daughter rides a motorbike, (not sure who she gets it from) and my son loves bikes but hasn't bought one yet. I hope the next generation will be as reckless as we were 🤣🤣
Just don’t like the overall looks of new bikes! Harley Davidson I used to love the chrome, wire spoked wheels etc and now they’re more into the blackout versions not to mention super expensive. It’s too bad they canceled the Bronx and was a decent looking bike! I’ll stick to the vintage motorcycles
Yeah I really like the look of the bronx, and have to agree the timeless look of the classic harleys can't be beaten (Japan Tey but fail all the time) I don't mind the new stuff but it feels less harley and more European imo 🤷♂️
Chinese bikes are bit like Ryanair. You don’t expect much but are then pleasantly surprised what you get. Compared to brands where you expect a lot and are then disappointed. It might still be a better bike but it is all about expectations.
Thats a really good way to describe it, the expectation is what will make or break the love of a bike, I was so surprised by the quality of the benelli TRK, awesome bike 👍
Harley and BMW, are notorious for making unreasonable and expensive demands, on dealerships. 'Some' Japanese manufacturers, are also following suit. As you said, costs are a huge factor too. Royal enfield, Chinese bikes too, are, as you said, far more affordable! Unfortunately, the UK market, accounts for about 1% of European sales, so manufacturers don't care what happens in the UK.
BMW has always been a premium brand, and not a cheap brand. Just to point that out. As you said, for those people who want a more affordable motorcycle, are better of buying a cheaper honda chinese brand or royal enfield as you said. 👍
Harley Davidson dealerships have thousands of square footage of properties to pay for. Taxes, insurance, lights, climate control, etc. If you're not dumb enough to help them out, the next fool walking in will. One dealerships by me has an outdoor music venue in their parking lot. Who pays for that? You do! If you drop any coin there at all. Wise up. Don't get foolish. Let me know when, or even if, you see a sale at any Harley Davidson dealers. I'll grow old first...
Making money is the priority of any business, but when the restrictions and expectations placed on the front line dealers makes it not profitable, then its little wonder the customer is being priced out of the market
Harley will turn into something like Ducati or Triumph in the states. Less people want to ride and it’s also too expensive. So smaller and less dealerships selling a lot less bikes. Maybe eventually online sales too. I don’t see how you fix it.
I'd never buy a vehicle I hadn't test driven or ridden - at least a representative model [different color maybe, not but not different options]. As for prices... I watched a video recently that compared HD prices from 10 or 15 years ago to today, and adjusting for inflation, they were the same price or cheaper - with all the upgrades! So it's not a price thing as far as I'm aware. I agree though, the big bike manufacturers need to produce actual entry-level bikes. If Harley came out with the Bronx, with the 1250 Rev Max, the current Skyline OS, and rider modes, and at $12-15k, they'd make a killing. Heck, even if it was $17k, they'd sell a ton of them. If the big bike MFGs made a ton of cheaper bikes, like the Indian and Chinese companies do, then they could really make the big Touring bikes "halo" bikes. They wouldn't have to sell 50,000 Street Glides a year to keep the lights on.
Spot on John, I fell in love with the bronx when it was first teased, then the live wire came with similar styling that looked great but had the wrong powerplant. I can't afford a big 'glide' in any of their forms new but I love the fact that I own a harley, even if it is an old girls bike 🤣
@@wsmv Oh yeah. LiveWire is fun to ride - I test rode one - but EV infrastructure and range isn't there for me. The claimed highway range doesn't cover my commute. As for the Sportster - ignore the haters. My wife's Sporty 1200 is probably faster than my Street Glide. And lighter. And probably nimbler too. [spell check says that's a word]. So, they're fun to ride, enjoy it :D And they make the potato potato sound, at half the cost. WIN!
complete kawasaki in Yeovil part of the recent collapse a month or so ago.. now Blade in Swindon along with their Harley dealership in Abingdon ... sad times
I think the cost of the bikes, insurance etc on roads that aren't in good enough condition for these big cruisers may kill the market in this country 🤷♂️
They ignored the lower powered market, and it has probably cost them dear. Not eveyone wants a bike you struggle to push around, or can't pick up if you drop it, or requires a second mortgage.. The idea that you start on a low cc bike and build youself up to a 2.35 litre monster, is the dealer propaganda that is sold to the public. The 'beginner bike' is total garbage, people have been around the world on 125'cc bikes and less, I would hardly call them beginners, it's just a garbage insult promoted to sell expensive obsolescence.
Ignoring the entry level bike market may be their biggest mistake, the monster saved ducati. The lower priced triumphs are selling by the bucket load, and royal Enfield can't produce enough bikes to cope with demand. Build quality, price competitively, lead the market, seems almost too simple 🤷♂️
I've had no reliability issues with my 20 year old sportster, but can't argue the reliability of Japanese bikes is second to none. Although I think the Chinese companies have really got their act together recently with the quality of the product they produce 👍
@wsmv Been riding motorcycles for 51 years now, people that i know who owned Harleys , most of them sold them within a year or less. They said it was a money pit for the most part & the bike Harley run properly. I would never buy Chinese motorcycles as well. Quality control is like a yo-yo, up & down for the most part.
@richardloo6572 I can only speak as I find, my harley has been brilliant and like I say that's 20 years old, and both my benelli and daughters bike are both chinese built but the quality is as good as anything you find from low end Japanese bikes or royal Enfield 🤷♂️
I think there's a few things going on, first being that riding is not attracting new riders. The economy is not good and prices for H-D (and Indian) are ridiculously high. Never a good mix. Then there is Jochen Zeitz and the rest of the BoD's who went off the deep end with their new strategies - making H-D a boutique dealer and going all-electric by 2030? Who the heck wants a quiet motorcycle??? LOL. The market is flooded with used motorcycles and much better deals than you'd get if you bought new. It seems their strategies are self-defeating and they are misreading the market. 🤷♂
I agree with everything you've said 100% Johnny, dealers are also having to preregistration bikes at the end of the year to make targets that manufacturers expect to then pay our bonuses (very often retailers sell bikes and cars at a loss in the hope they get these bonus payments) I drive an electric car but do I want an electric bike, hell no 😎👍
Oxford (Abingdon) closed last Wednesday, just as i phoned them to take my FLH in on AA Trailer. Had to go to Cheltenham who say they are safe, for now?
It's scary mate, the deposits on high end HD's are like the total cost of small Chinese bike, and if the dealer shuts its doors your money is on hold until the administrators release it, which could take months. Have you got your bike now 🤞 what did you get, and did abingdon explain the reasons?
this solus model they all seem to be trying is just not working Triumph went for it in my local area. that new dealer went bust and we haven't got a Triumph now in the area at all
It's a sad state to be in right now, lots of people talking about the used market but if new bikes aren't manufactured and sold there won't be a used market ☹️
Young people just aren't that interested in Harley Davidson's because they cost as much as a decent car. Edinburgh Harley Davidson is closing or has already closed. They're dying off in the UK for sure. Its also the insurance is huge now. Biking used to be a cheaper alternative to driving but it just isn't anymore.
NOOOOOOOO, not Edinburgh HD, I drove to Edinburgh to get a t shirt from there which is one of my favourites. I knew saltire had closed in Edinburgh but they were multi franchise, I'll be gutted if the city loses another major franchise dealer 😔
It's the people that work there I feel sorry for, they were really brilliant and polite when I went there, but to be fair so was everyone else in Edinburgh ❤️🏴
I don't need the dealership at all. It's just a middleman that exists to steal your money. The manufacturer can sell direct, and authorize the independents to do warranty repairs. They already do the service, since the dealership won't service a bike that's 10 yrs old or older. Sadly, we can't buy direct.
We can't buy direct in the UK, but even if we could the dealers would not be able to survive on warranty claims alone and would shit down. They need the sales and aftersales business to remain profitable. And without warranty support you have no customers prepared to take the risk on a new bike, and then no sales mean the manufacturer goes under 🤷♂️
Personally I hope the HD dealer in my town shuts down and soon. $31,000 dollars out the door are they insane? They still have 2024 bikes that are unsold.
So many issues around pricing, but the people that work there and need the job to heat and feed their families are the real losers when dealers shut down 😔
When motorcycle manufacturers realize that you have to have disposable income to buy a motorcycle. You need cheap bikes to get your customer base as China and Japan have done. Harley has the smaller cheaper bike but never promote them in Canada.
I would always say the harley product is awesome, and definitely premium. The evo engine is one of the most reliable engines in history (low stress) but I agree used will be the market to enter where you can get a real bargain if you can cope with not taking a bikes virginity 🤷♂️
Sadly I don't see it getting any better any time soon. Its like they don't want to sell in volume anymore because they make enough profit on lower numbers 🤷♂️
I think 13k will be a good price point if it maintains the HD quality, rather than the awful Chinese rubbish that they commissioned for other markets. It seriously consider £11k for a bronx 😍
HD has been flirting with disaster for decades.
It's like a michael Bay movie, let's hope there's a happy ending to this one 🤞
I was at my local HD dealer talking to my salesman and he they haven’t sold a single bike this month.
It goes to show you how badly motorcycle manufacturers relied on cheap financing. When you could get 2% loans, manufacturers raised prices because money was “cheap” and they knew they could get away with it. Now even with good credit you’re looking at 8% or 10% loan rates. People who can afford the high prices also know those interest rates are a rip off.
Agreed, the only way to compete is to lower the price of the bikes instead of relying on a brand name being enough to get people to part with their spare money 🤷♂️
Sounds like their wokeness is alive and well at the dealership , hope your chat with “ he they “ was pleasant.
If your temp is like ours, NO, there not selling. Too damn cold @4 degreesF.
@@splashpit I hope you're being sarcastic/making a joke. Anyone would guess that the OP made a mistake in writing the sentence and what they meant to write was "he SAID they haven't sold a single bike this month". Mind you, who's gonna buy a motorcycle in the middle of winter, with all the snow and ice we've had. I haven't gone out on a bike ride in about 6 weeks...
we are getting older and there is very little new blood buying bikes.
Could that be because they are so expensive now? Young people have very little spare cash? Or because we are breeding a generation of snow flakes ❄️🤣
Both all of the above.
Plus the government making it so complicated and expensive to get your full test
This is the biggest problem facing us.
@@wsmv Both..... Snow flakes just want a paycheck, they expect it, but they don't want to work, have a good work ethic, nor are they as productive or willing to hustle. Pretty much the Lazy generation.
HD Management is living in a fools paradise where they think they can keep pumping out large numbers of expensive bikes ,most people cant afford and younger generation of ''buyers'' are not interested in bikes ,HD will be gone in 10 or 15 years ,look at KTM ,more to come
one comment on Gixxerfoo said a Dealer near him,still had like 45 HD ,new 2023,2024 bikes !!!!!!
It's a very worrying trend, ktm always seemed to be selling new bikes, very likely another part of their company hemorrhaging money and the ktm brand took the hit ☹️
I told my wife recently If I had the cash to buy a brand new bike Id probably just buy 3 good used ones lol.
Exactly buddy, that's my theory.
Plus there's more joy in choices than owning a one trick pony 🤷♂️
The market is flooded with bikes. I've seen some really nice ones for three grand I've seen some amazing ones for five grand. Don't need to spend any more than that.
Picked up a 94 heritage for 6k . Some good prices on used.
I bought 3 bikes instead of one, now I have the problem (a good one to have) which one to ride
@@wrongthinker350 But if they are, you must travel at least 500 miles or more to get them. Absolutely NOTHING in my state.
Went to my local GMC-Buick dealer. There are spending 4 million dollars to 'modernize' their dealership up to GM standards. You used to buy a vehicle in a place that smelled of grease and looked grimy, but you could afford the product. Now the dealers look like a five star hotel but you can't afford the product. How long will that last?
Your take is SPOT ON.
What we see in it is well heeled highly paid Dealership owners managers & Corporate managers who are SO separated economically (insulated) from Mr & Mrs Average Customer that they cannot and worse WILL NOT relate to us.
The Elephant they ignore is that today most car / truck / motorcycle new sales are discretionary - meaning driven NOT by genuine deep need but rather the shallower titillation for "new" or new bells & whistles.
But in the face of tough economic times those shallow sales soften, dry up & blow away - and the average guy can just keep driving his current rig another season or 5 or 10 !
POOF - they're out of business in a blink.
Sign of the times that the current community want glitz and bright lights when buying but don't want the price that comes with it.
Something has to give, I'm happy to buy a new bike from a shed if the price is right 🤷♂️
@wsmv
INDEED.
Somebody has to "pay the piper".
For me, the answer has always been, but clean used & depreciated garage queens.
I've always gotten smokin deals / never got taken - (unless I failed to inspect properly, my bad, only happened once in probably 80 purchases over my 60 years) and have always ridden DEBT FREE.
I did buy twice new, a Ram truck & an 1987 LT500 "Quadzilla" but only because for a season I made stupid
$$$ and didn't want to wait.
Being a lurker with cash pays off because so many luck impulse control, buy too many bikes they can't afford & the wife gets mad and pretty soon the guys crying to get out of debt, garage cleared etc, Viola your golden opportunity....
💯. Although Indian and Chinese brands are still struggling to gain a foothold here in the USA, very much the same thing is taking place when it comes to prestige brands, including Harley Davidson, they are simply pricing themselves out of the market. Motorcycle commuters are few and far between here, as most use motorbikes as toys. It is not looking good for the expensive brands.
It seems to be a worldwide pandemic of the product outpricing the market.
I'd love to see some decent entry level HD's hit the showrooms like the bronx, that would open up a whole new generation of HOG members that will spend a fortune on the merchandise that harley makes its money from 🤞
It is unfortunate that bike brands are attempting to force dealerships into these exclusive one-make establishments. The dealership that I used to go to in Stratford Upon Avon used to be a great place to spend time looking at the variety of used machines that they had and also the wide clothing ranges that they sold. You could even get a cracking bacon butty outside and socialise with other bikers. Now I occasionally pop into their up-market dealership for a few minutes just to get something specific..
The used market is now dominated and ruined by awful box-shifting warehouses that don't allow test rides, try to charge admin fees for merely doing their jobs and make no attempt to build a relationship with customers. I have no wish to give them my hard-earned!
Totally agree mate, I may not buy brand new bikes but I still like to drool around showrooms and then spend a fortune on another harley t shirt or ducati helmet. When the main dealers dissappear so will the merchandise that we love so much ☹️
Totally agree Phil. I guess the other issue is us middle to fair aged riders are becoming few and far apart and the majority of younger people are scared of their own shadow let alone riding a bike where you can't text or watch tv when your riding down the road 🫣😅
That's a very scary and accurate point Ian ❄️❄️
Rubbish. Young people do all kind of dangerous stuff when they can afford it. They are just, by and large, less exposed to the idea of riding a bike - a problem that just reinforces itself of course as popularity of motorcycles diminishes - and there are significant financial hurdles to owning and riding one.
Bikes Not Selling??? I know lets put the PRICE UP! That will help???????????????????????????????
🤦♂️
It's a really interesting subject, I have touched on it a couple of times. For me the issue is the following factors
Initial cost of bikes: new bikes are far too complicated and expensive, they need to have more options, bikes that look good, sound good and handle well for the Sunday warrior, I think Honda are getting there with the new Hornet CB100O under £10K even for the SP version, I reckon they will sell in droves!
Next up is servicing costs: Manufacturers are adamant you have to go to a an approved dealership for a service to keep your warranty, why?
Dealerships are now so few and far between it puts people off, not to mention the cost!
Chinese and Indian bikes: like you said these guys are immune and the reason is cost!
They cost less to buy look pretty good and when you look at the Royal Enfield's pure simplicity!
So like you say what happens next?
Seems Crazy HD and Yamaha wanting their own showroom's that wont work, you need competition.
Also what if you come to look at a Honda but a Yamaha Catches your eye?
It's super short sighted in my opinion, brand like HD have the ability to develope and sell good quality entry level bikes, that will then breed loyalty in ownership.
Imagine a HD to compete with the Japanese on price and quality, they have the plans just won't go into production.
It's like triumph now selling these entry level bikes that are flying out of the showroom, people can afford them, but when they are ready to upgrade triumph will be the first manufacturer they look at because they've already bought the t shirt, jacket, lunchbox etc 🤷♂️
The idea that in the future we will order a bike we haven't ridden can't work for a lot of people. I have never, and will never, buy a bike without some kind of test ride. I think half the problem is simply price. The prices are heading skywards whilst people (in this country) are getting less disposable income. When a good, cheap bike comes along, it causes a stir. The big manufacturers need to spot that and adjust accordingly.
100% mate, i hope they see sense soon before it's too late 🤞
I bought my last used street glide special without a test ride. If I didn’t like it, I would just sale it after few k kilometers, whatever.
The three big Japanese brands are selling lots of excellent smaller cheaper bikes but mainly in Asia and South America. Europeans and North Americans are still buying bigger bikes. Watch TH-cam reviews and listen to the lust for big bad bikes. Nothing much has really changed. I bought a used GT550 in 1979. If I had had more money I would have bought a car. That would have been cheaper than buying a new BMW, Ducati or Harley Davidson. Hobby riders are driving the market upwards.
@CalmBiker, Look back at what happened after Convid when chips were in short supply. Bikes never put rubber on showroom floors, to get one at all buyers had to pre- order . Their only impression of their purchase gained from biased reviews, by bought and paid for TH-cam reviewers. Only after purchase did they find out about inherent faults.
Then manufacturers stopped including many accessories, choosing to make them additional extras. They've shot themselves in the foot and unless they get back to offering value for money, they'll suffer. Honda has stepped up to the plate with the new 1,000cc Honda Hornet, the fully spec'd model priced a fraction under £10,000. I predict they'll outsell all other manufacturers put together in 2025.
Hadn't thought that it's the hobbyists with spare collateral are part of the cause, food for thought 🤔
In the Great Depression ,dozens of motorcycle brands disappeared forever
Sad but true, until they get restarted in the Asian Market with cheap alternatives carrying the prestige name 🤷♂️
They are too expensive in the USA
From what I hear everything is expensive in the states.
I was in NYC last March and was shocked how much everything cost. I thought it was just NYC but been told its accross the country 😔
Expect Gas/petrol, that's still dirt cheap in the USA - we pay twice the price that you pay, here in 🇬🇧 the cost is absolutely ridiculous per gallon
@kentishmale1969 sadly we pay about $4 more per gallon in the UK, mostly because have to import it all 😩
When governments continually deficit spend and Central Banks print money to allow those governments to over spend the wealth of the ordinary taxpayer is extracted through inflation. Some wealth transfer is through taxes but mostly it is inflation, which debases the currency you work hard for and try to save. We are all getting poorer and that is rapidly becoming evident.
Artificial fiscal spending is never going to end well, and only serves to a bigger crash when it happens.
You'd think being the enlightened generation we are that we would have learned from the past by now 🤷♂️
At one time most dealers carried multiple lines of motorcycles, and at least here in Canada, restricting dealers to one line of motorcycles has almost killed the industry. I live in a city of about 50,000 people, and the nearest Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, and Triumph dealers are all about 100 miles away. In the case of Harley Davidson, while Harley has always done well with it's dealerships in the past, their dealership structure hurts them if they wanted to bring out less expensive beginner bikes, because the existing dealerships have become accustomed to large dealer markups, and they have no interest in selling bikes that don't have huge markups. Clearly if Harley did want to sell inexpensive motorcycles, they would need to explore different marketing options, and the obvious one would be to tag into existing multi-brand dealerships. I do agree that motorcycles have become too big, too expensive, and too intimidating and the success of the 650 Royal Enfield twins, and more recently the Triumph/Bajaj 400 cc singles shows that there still is a market for smaller, less expensive motorcycles. Personally I ride a 2005 Suzuki Bandit 650. I'm not claiming that it's the best bike ever, or even a particularly good bike, but it works for me, and the cost of ownership is very manageable.
I think the smaller capacity bikes from the far east and India will become even more sought after as the bigger manufacturers slow down production.
It's unlikely they will reduce their prices which the Chinese and budget brands will capitalise on 🤷♂️
The COVID pandemic, and two ongoing wars, and a global recession? We are living in interesting times.
Let's hope there are better times ahead 🤞
4:20 thank you, finally someone who uses the key to turn off the motor, instead of the kill switch.
🤣🤣 I never use the kill switch unless the bike is laying on top of me 🤣🤣
I just typed out a nice response, then my hand bumped the wrong button and POOF, it was gone. I'm not going to retype it all. Suffice it to say that I agree with you.
Thank you my friend, it may be regional rather than global, but it'll be a sad day when icon's like HD pull out of the UK because they have no dealers ☹️
Up here in Worcestershire we have lost loads of dealerships.. Ducati and kawasaki in Worcester, streetbike in Halesowen.. Blade who had a multi franchise dealership in Swindon closed a few days ago.... I have a yamaha, and no longer have a local dealer.. I think as said by others the problem is multi faceted.. Age demographics, prices etc.. Plus I too heard manufacturers want their own showroom, in corporate colours, at the dealers expense. Our local Triumph Dealer has changed 3 times due to this.. One dealer paid approximately 250k for it Triumph showroom.. It sadly folded..
Weren't you hit by a major group going into administration there, literally closed all its branches within days?
@wsmv yes.. Completely motorbikes
I have had far more fun on cheap bikes than i have ever had on ‘prestige’ models. I am financially reasonably comfortable but if I were to go out and spend £20k on a new bike I would never want to do anything that put it at risk of theft damage or deterioration. Used, low mileage bikes are cheap at the moment, so my advice is, forget about the badge, status and prestige, buy a used one, ride the wheels off it and bask in the glory of how little money you spent.
Hi Harry, I've had new bikes in the past and you're right, there's always a fear of the damage you could do to your pride and joy. Now I could afford a new bike, but it would be at the low end of the market, I have just as much fun riding a bike that has done its wearing in and has a few marks on it which I didn't do 🤣
Precisely my mode.
Loving my 2008 Suzuki V-Strom 650 - one owner perfect condition garage queen bought for $3600 2 years ago.
Never breaks or fails - I've added 20,000 miles (almost a Daily rider) and have changed tires once, new chain & fluid changes.
I'll NEVER buy a new bike.
WHY oh why would I throw my money away ?
In 3 years I'll look for about a 2014-2020 Late Gen V-Strom 800 & be done.
I have a number of great shirts i had made of my ideas ! " IF YOU REALLY" LIVE TO RIDE" YOUR HARLEY SHOULD NEVER!!! BE ON A TRAILER !!😅😅😅😅😅😅
🤣🤣
Another one reads " YOU CHOOSE NO HELMET , I CHOOSE NO WAVE "
I stopped by there 3 years ago to look at the bikes and drink coffee while touring around. I am surprised at another going under.
I think on this occasion they made the jump before HD pulled them under. I just hope Indian and ducati are profitable enough 🤞
I'm a youngish biker at 33. I've been riding since I was 19. Bikes are a hobby for me but I also have a wife and a mortgage. New motorcycles are far too expensive to justify the expenditure, particularly when you can buy a used Japanese bike of any variety and if you look after it well enough it'll last you a long long time. Why buy new? New bikes are the reserve of people who need the latest or greatest thing on the spec sheet and probably can't utilise the bikes full potential anyway. This is all compounded by the cost of borrowing increasing and those new PCP deals don't look so tempting anymore.
Spot on in everything you say, I'm not a fan of the new pcp/lease deals because I like the opportunity to own the bike, but I can see the idea behind it and I'm sure it works for some 👍
Just as an aside - regarding cost of motorcycles - when I first started looking at buying a bike, for total transport and leisure use, a Norton 750 Commando was the same price as a Mini car. So when you look at bike prices that comparison with car prices is still valid.
Although new car sales are down, along with new everything else.
It's a very valid point, my biggest worry is that, even if you have the money there will be no dealerships to buy it from 🤷♂️
Remember that the new CEO of Harley said they were going to make more profit by selling less bikes at higher cost..... I know they are selling less, not sure of company profit, but hey, at least they got 50% of it right! They are pricing themselves out of their core market of buyers, but I think they want them to buy used HD and let the doctors and lawyers buy new. Of course some just know they are getting ripped off at those prices and buy something else. I would never buy a Harley even though I like the bikes, but reliability is low, prices are sky high and value for $ is very low ($5000 for special color paint is ridiculous). I bought a 2023 Triumph leftover (Tiger 900gt) and got a great deal instead. If Harley goes bankrupt, I won't care.
Prices are high true, but I have to say at 6o yrs old and the owner of a dozen different motorcycles( 6 of them being Harleys) they are plenty reliable, but then again they were all EVO's!
@@gtb5216 Wow, you must have paid a mighty sum for all those EVO's! I do not have personal experience with a Harley, but a friend of mine had one- nothing but trouble, so he sold it and bought a Honda ST1100- not trouble from it. I am also in your age group- multiple dual sports for me and a couple of street bikes, but nothing of the cost of a (new) Harley.
@@joeln6861 Would love to have an EVO Road King. But those bikes are just too old now.
Sometimes wonder what goes through the minds of some of these "top level" business leaders. Look at china's and Indias model, low price, sell loads, invest in development. Seems too much like common sense to me 🤷♂️
I wish Harley-Davidson All the Luck in the World... All the Bad Luck...🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
It's not necessarily HD I'm worried about, it's all the people around the world who rely on selling them or their merchandise just to keep a roof over their heads and feed their family 🤷♂️
I'm not picking on your channel in particular but all these doom and gloom industry videos don't talk about the obvious elephant in the room. We're now just ten years away from the end of motorcycles as we know it (hopefully 15), 125s may be gone in just 5 years! Whether you accept that or not, it's current UK and EU policy. All retailers will start to wind down and get out of the business before the only thing available is little electric Chinese commuters you can get mail order or from little shops. If you're thinking you'll just carry on for years on a reliable old bike, they'll tax them off the road in the same way they got rid of old Discovery's and Range Rovers by making road tax 4 figures a year. Enjoy it while you can
Spot on this is the plan.
As much as you're currently correct , I'm still hoping for a synthetic or bio fuel alternative 🤞
There will be a climb down because they will lose too much money from fuel duty. Plus remember we already have an age limit where cars and bikes over a certain age are tax and mot excempt 🤷♂️
You forget one thing, DJ Trump, EU are idiots and will be educated
I've been thinking the same thing for a few years. I think it's the end of biking as we know it.
I think it's only the end of Biking as we know it for people who let their politicians dole out their rights or rescind them at will.
In other words you're letting your politicians determine your principles rather than demanding that your principles create your politicians.
God bless England and the UK where are all my relatives came from but I will say you need to learn from the USA Patriots that told the government hell no !
The only purpose of government according to our constitution is to secure the rights of the governed.
NOTE: Not act like they're the Source of those Rights.
Per Jefferson in our esteemed Declaration of Independence, human rights come from GOD Our Creator and are Inalienable - NO man gets to cancel or modify / minimize them, period.
Then they went on to list them in the Bill of Rights and require EVERY elected official to uphold them upon their solemn Oath.
(look them up - which one covers the right to ride cool motorcycles ? It's there...).
So, my British Brothers, change your Doctrine, your mind, fire your old, bad (Marxist / Collectivist) representatives, hire new GOOD ones & keep your old & new motorcycles !
In the Holy Cause of Liberty - David "V-Strom" in Texas
All very well said, my friend. A shame to see the industry in turmoil. Great video!
Thanks SB, sorry I'm late replying beena bit overwhelmed by the volume of response, might have to book a day of work to catch up with the replies 🤣🤣
Never feel obliged mate. Just bung it a like and move on to the next 🙂
@Saddlebags73 then it sits there unanswered and triggers my ocd 🤣🤣
@ 🤣🤣🤣
I bought a new Harley Breakout 114ci in 2020 for the best part of £16,500. Harley now sell the new Breakout (pretty much the same apart from the new one being a 117ci) for a staggering £25,000!
My local dealership are trying their best to "upgrade" me to a new Breakout, but I can't justify buying the same bike for nearly 10 grand more!
It's an absolute joke mate, when there is no justification for the additional costs.
Great bikes, but not at £25k
I'll stick to riding my 2011 XL883N, which I bought new and my 2009 XR1200 which I bought from a mate last summer. There isn't one motorcycle in H-D's 2025 portfolio that I'd even consider buying, they don't appeal to me in the slightest. I remember the day's when there were more customers for H-D's than the factory could produce, you had to wait month's to get one.
Incidentally, Royal Enfield have sold almost one million motorcycles in 2024, a real success story for the Indian owned marque.
RE have done amazingly, but only due to its low end price point I would imagine.
HD seem he'll bent on making a prestige name etched in stone just by making their bikes more expensive and harder to get hold of new 🤷♂️ not sure its a great business plan though
I want to buy my next bike off Amazon with Prime with next day delivery and free returns.
It's gonna happen mate 😬
From someone in the business it's far more complex a situation in the UK. I'd actually go and talk to these main dealers rather than assume what the lay of the land looks like.
Hi Davy, yes there will always be more going on in the background, but an alarming number of sites are closing or relinquishing their franchise due to the unrealistic expectations from the manufacturers.
I work in the motor industry and know exactly how much pressure can be excerted on the retailer, and how much it costs. The car main dealer side of the market has exactly the same issues.
Thanks for watching and commenting, if there's any info you can share about the situation, then I can add to an update video, westonsupermotovlog@gmail.com
Many thanks 👍
We lost Pidcocks in Nottingham, which ran 3 dealerships. Triumph, Ducati, and BMW. I hear the BMW showroom has been bought by Moto GB to sell various Chinese and second-hand bikes.
The premium brands need to look at prices, service costs and this sole dealership model.
The Chinese are doing to the traditional brands what the Japanese did to the British bike industry.
Hopefully the established brands will see this before they suffer the same fate as the British bike industry, which is now only British in name. ☹️
The market is evolving, changing, and HD is trying to figure out how to adapt with bikes like the PanAmerica, for a new group of riders, while still serving its core customers. This is no easy feat
It's going to be hard but increasing prices while reducing dealers isn't going to help them in my opinion 🤷♂️
Good Lord, WS...I mean Spaghetti Weston! How have I missed thi... ahh probably because I took time out between Oct and err now. I wasn't aware Yamaha have gone from Bransons, I will check that, perhaps he meant kawasaki, gone into Admin (completely motoring ltd).
Cost of living, inflation, doom budget, ingress of Chinese/Indian made brands making legacy brands look expensive. Just some of the factors I guess. Welcome back!
Thanks buddy, and the same back at ya.
It's good to take a break and regroup every now and then.
I had to detox from YT because it was beginning to rule my life.
Yeah let us know about bransons, sad to see any retailer shut or lose a franchise, I remember motocorsa seemed to dissappear overnight 😔
Same thing here in Wellington, NZ. For a while, maybe over a year there was no HD dealer in this part of the North Island. The closest was over 4 hour ride away from the capital city! My favourite motorcycle dealer though, has a blend of Triumph and Indian. Just up the road from that, there is a Royal Enfield/Ducati dealer. If I want a Honda, nope, the local dealer gave up the franchise because of the requirement for exclusivity. Same for Yamaha for a while, but they must have come to their senses, as Yamaha is back in a blend with Kawasaki, MV Augusta etc among others.
I genuinely more of them see sense before it's too late,
When you walk into a dealership it's a choice of which brand you go to, if there are no dealers there is no choice 🤷♂️
I have a multi franchise dealer near me, they also no longer stock Yamaha, got myself a new Honda last year as a second winter hack (350 Forza Scooter) plan to replace the other bike this year as getting a bit old - looking at world sales, some parts of the world are still doing fine, we are certainly being squeezed financially, not helped by our current government increasing costs for businesses. Used to have a HD dealer, they have gone, now the do Indian and Royal Enfield.
Is that in the UK? Which harley dealer has gone, sadly the comments in this video are showing this is a real problem nationally and internationally 😔
One thing about Harley is they built themselves on an image of the outlaw biker, the leather wearing tough-guy image that nobody wants today and Harley isn't trying to change. A new era of cheap Asian bikes is beginning. China and India see an opening. The Harley dealership here on Hawai'i closed about ten years ago and you just don't see that many on the road now except for the occasional group/holiday weekend ride.
So sad that an Icon has all but disappeared from and American state, what hope do we have in the UK ☹️
It's hard to enjoy a harley ride, on a island that's only 32 miles from one end to the other, just driving in circles won't do it for me,
You can't afford a can of soup in Hawaii....lol
Nowdays Harley's are more like 60 year old retired dentist bike. And you know how young people don't like things their grandparents like, and young people don't have the kind of money they are asking for anyway.
Eastern Western Motor Group in Edinburgh just announced in the last few days they will be giving up their Harley and Kawasaki Franchises (it was a shared building) . They will continue to operate their car franchises.
My sportster came from Saltire in Edinburgh which has also sadly now closed, not sure of the reasons but a really good dealer with great staff gone 😩
Hey Google, take me to a motorbike shop that is still open!!
Purely down to supply and demand! High end bikes are in supply BUT NOT demand, low to mid range bikes are in supply AND IN demand! It’s not rocket science but clearly some manufacturers are on a different planet!
Nothing wrong with my 28yr old VFR750 or 11yr old VFR1200X. Money well spent. Do I have a modern affordable alternative to those, I think not.
Go steady bud 👋 12:54
All great words mate, and great bikes to have in the garage too, like you say you could spend £20k trying to replace either of those bikes and still fall short of what they are capable of.
Thanks for watching my friend, and very much appreciate the comments 👍
The mixture of corporate greed and bad economy is creating this mess. I think you are absolutely right that the used market will last us a long time. Until the greed heads can figure out what's what, we have old bikes :)
And there are so many good old bikes out there. Generally when we buy a new bike it's because we want something different not necessarily un touched.
Give me a 1990 fireblade over a brand new s1000 any day of the week 😁👍
It's a tough time to be selling expensive discretionary items. Incomes haven't kept up with inflation, particularly inflation on necessities. Honestly, something like a Harley or a Ducati
doesn't look like too expensive if you look at how much they haven't gone up compared to a pound of potatoes or a month's rent or a mortgage repayment.
We are in austere times. "Value" has become a far higher purchasing consideration for a much bigger proportion of the market than it was a few years ago. People either can't pay for high end goods or they're attempting to keep as much dry powder as they can, or they don't have any money at all to spend on a toy, credit or no credit.
One might have dreamed of buying a new HD next year, only a few years ago. I suspect that many of those same people are now dreaming of buying an RE next year, but wouldn't turn down a good used GB 350 Honda... at the right price.
Is Harley Davidson in trouble? They have made some grave mistakes in recent years. The LIvewire development was a disaster that robbed the company of oxygen. And their failure to develop
a line of motorcycles around the now extinct Revolution engine is now looking particularly short sighted.
But none of that really matters if HD can scale their business to a shrinking market and remain profitable. When I say, "none of that matters", I mean it doesn't matter so much if you're on the board of directors. If you're a local dealer, it matters a lot. The reality is, they're in trouble. Their sales can't fall, but will. And if you're an investor, it's not such great news, either.
But if you are an investor, there's always that mob in India... Eicher motors. They own a small brand called Royal Enfield. It could be worth a look, because through my eyes, that's what the short to medium term of motorcycling looks like it's going to be.
It's definitely an interesting time, and the people who have disposable cash are generally adverse to risk and discomfort like riding a motorcycle.
Gonna be a rocky road for sure, hopefully we will all come out alive 🤞
My shirt 👕 says " THE BEST THING IN THE HARLEY SHOP WINDOW IS THE REFLECTION OF MY DUCATI" !!!! 😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
🤣🤣🤣🤣 I must remember that 😎👍
Not that right there is funny, I don’t care who you are😂😂(821Hyper)
Another shirt 👕 says " if you really Live to ride ,your Harley should never be on a trailer!!!
I live in the States, and there are so many good use HD's for a lot less money $ the new HD's or too expensive. And people can't afford a $25.000 HD when you can get an older nice bike for $5,000 .
I know, my sportster was bought at a great price over here because there's no way I could afford new (or even nearly new) but there are so many people that can if there is a dealership to sell them 👍
@wsmv were i live, you can pick up an older sportster with low miles, $2.000 all day long. The sportster A great bike that they stopped making??
Completely agree, was a bike that always looked classic and timeless at the same time 😍👍
I think two things are happening here! Cost of living crisis is stopping people afford luxury of a second vehicle ( as not many ride bikes all year). The next for me is superbike factory, you can buy any second hand bike from there it’s like a one stop shop but for me I couldn’t as they have a no test ride policy…but going what you said it’s like a click and collect.
New bikes are just stupidly pricey and everyone knows you save thousands buying second hand and if you’re patient you’ll find what you want.
Yeah the superbike factory seem to have a good business plan (except for no test rides) but they buy a lot of bikes that are higher mileage or no history and then give no warranty unless you pay extra.
I don't know the exact details but this will probably be the model for the future as less new bikes are sold, the mileage on used will increase 🤷♂️
I'll continue to ride my 22 year old Triumph Bonneville and my 18 year old Harley Dyna! The local H-D dealership in Norwich closed a year ago, nearest one to me now is Newmarket which is a 140 mile round trip. Main dealers keep nothing in stock parts wise for the Dyna and same for the Triumph so I'll keep buying what I need online and doing my own service and repairs. I have no plans to drop £50k on a Harley CVO! lol
With those 2 diamonds in the garage I wouldn't want to change them either 😁👍
Interesting vid.....Hondas been playing this "Solus showroom" game for years......I bought a used Crosstourer from Yeovil ( Holeshot). Great guys but apparently absorbed into "Completely" and we know how well that's gone🏍️💨💨🤬 P.S. Marsh Yamaha in Exeter never had more than half a dozen used bikes in their shop so no surprise they've gone to the wall as part of the same group as Plymouth Harley and Triumph...hopefully the old Honda shop in Newton will keep supplying good older bikes for us dinosaurs🦖🏍️💨💨👍
Hi Nikki, it's quite worrying how many dealers in the southwest have either given up they franchise or closed the doors completely. And then when you look further affixed the same has happened in Swindon, Oxford and Reading.
Soon we will only have fowlers and small independent used dealers to choose from. 😔
Good points. I think HD wants its dealerships to become some kind of exclusive lifestyle place and require their dealerships to have a certain look and feel where they sell bikes and apparel. That takes huge money and not something that goes well when mixed with other brands or sold along with competing products. It really sucks for the dealerships and resellers who just want to sell bikes. But that is the price they are commanding. Regarding prices... they went up quite a bit this year on the new models which also suck because many of their grand touring machines are already super expensive and now they are just a bit more out there. Sucks about KTM and what they are going through right now. In Harley's case and with KTM they have just lost touch with the very things that made them successful and then took a dump on them. For example, the DEI stuff is now being walked way back and so is the EV nonsense. Political winds combined with a huge amount of greed and being out of touch of what their customers want. They are just living in some dream land where they sell things to a corporate board that is only focused on making money. Bottom line they will all suffer a bit until they can correct to what the market will support. I would love to have a new Road Glide but I can only afford a used Pan American... and then there is the wife to deal with too.
I love the current (and older) range of harleys, and the product is a high quality even though some would argue that. But making unrealistic expectations on private dealers is totally unnecessary and short sighted.
They do sell a lifestyle, but that lifestyle was there from tiny little bike shops to huge dealerships, and HD seem hell bent on selling to only the high end buyer now.
There are tens of thousands of potential lifelong HD community riders that won't get the chance because of a lack of locations to buy them 🤷♂️
Worrying times mate !
Sadly it is at the moment, hopefully these huge companies will come to their senses 🤞
It's not just new bikes, second hand bikes aren't selling well either. I have seen perfectly good machines in dealers, reasonably priced, still in there months later.
I just think that people's standard of living has taken a battering over the last few years, and motorcycles to most are not a necessity.
Sadly this is very true David, manufacturers need to understand this, dealers are in the same financial difficulty as the customers, and asking them to spend a fortune to meed corporate identity standards is crazy. 🤔
The seeds were down in the 1970's and now we are reaping the result and there is no cure. I can remember the start, restricting 50cc's to 30mph, what were viable motorcycles were now machines wobbling in the gutter. Further convoluted and expensive license restrictions put off youngsters, my 2 sons have been around my bikes all their lives, but bought cars, less hassle.
Now the older are dying, no new blood and it's all come to a head, manufactures making ever heavier and complicated bikes for a market that doesn't want them, didn't help. New sales are desperate because there isn't the customer base to trade the used ones to!
There does seem to be a real lack of youth coming into the market.
The increase in restrictive laws and anti fun devices make motorcycling much less exciting even if it is a bit safer 🤷♂️
My local HD dealer has just closed, and the next nearest dealer has closed as well. If I'd known the dealer was going to close I wouldn't have bought one.
And this is where it hits real people that now have added expense and lost time (the only thing we can't buy more of) because of the unrealistic expectations on retailers by manufacturers 😡
Not just the bikes being offered and the cost. A lot of problems at the moment, no young blood, impossible licensing, Service costs, Insurance nonsense, grossly unfair road tax......
All very valid and accurate points Kev, it's a wonder we still ride these things when everything is against us doing it 🤔
All retail business will be on its arse very soon. It's not just bikes - it's every leisure activity now, soon followed by the car industry, then simply everything else.
We as a country are in a recession but nobody will admit it. Static tax allowances, static wages and rampant inflation is the cause, but our MP's are all oblivious because it doesn't' affect them. They are financially immune.
I don't want to get political but do you think DT will help the common man and blue collar workers?
In a recession now?...more than mate, its actually a planned demolition of the country, economy and its people...same is planned for the entire western world....''great reset'', ''build back better'', ring any bells.
oxford harley davidson closed last week, just got to expensive to keep the franchise they say🤷
And Reading HD went earlier last year, and these are amazing showrooms that are proud to sell such stunning bikes.
Sadly the UK market sees to be a small one, but no dealerships means no sales 🤷♂️
Very short sighted in my opinion ☹️
No Harley is not in self destruct mode.
These.videos have been coming out for the last 20 years.
Harley will always have a market in USA, albeit reduced.
Hi John, the acceptance of a reduced market is the overall problem.
If they reduced costs and dealer expectations, they would create the same profit from more bikes, but that in turn creates more aftersales income from parts, servicing, accessories, and HD's big earner, clothing and merchandise.
Nobody will buy a $70 HD t shirt , when they ride a royal Enfield meteor 🤷♂️
Harley is dying on the vine in Texas.
Their sky high prices, effort to "sell a lifestyle", refusal to have any simple affordable entry level bikes (only luxo boat cruisers of spotty quality & reliability) + a swaggering arrogant attitude.
A new HD is simply a "look how MUCH I can throw away" Virtue signal for affluent retirees which are going extinct faster than Kamala's campaign last November.
Bye bye HD
@ Ok
In 1990s Harley Davidson in the U.S. forced out their long time Mom and Pop dealers out. They gave dealerships to a lot of owners of large car dealerships who could build the big boutique dealerships. Triumph also did a similar maneuver in 2014 but backed up when a lot of dealerships gave up Triumph.
Let's hope HD realise their mistake 🤞
I used to ride Harley Davidson and loved mine and then I discovered it would not do a wheelie at any speed. I went out and bought an old Goldwing. She’s a wheelie monster without even intending from now on I am only going to ride Goldwing.
You need to watch a Kruesi Originals video. Any Harley can be wheelied.
Wheelies on a gold wing, you should make videos 🤣🤣
Is it worth the investment in fancy single brand motorcycle dealerships with the UK 2030 ICE ban. I believe motorcycles are to get another 5 years to 2035, but who knows if that is set in stone. However, the really killer of sales is inflation and tax rises, driving down disposable income, or worse, job loses. Frankly, it's not a good time for any retailer.
I'm still praying for bio or synthetic fuels to be the long term answer 🤞
@@wsmv That would make sense, as it can use existing infrastructure and vehicles.
I think China has a 90+% hold on the EV market for cars, Tesla are tiny compared to China.
I said this on another vid the other day, I think it is time for a total shake up that would make the bike shows like NEC/Excel/Festival of Motorcycling/etc relevant once again. We need to get shot of local dealerships and instead have authorised service centres locally and then have manufacturer roadshows like in the USA offering guided demo rides. Then have a central hub for each manufacturer who deliver the bikes to the service centre to do the PDI. It isn't something I want, but I can't see anything else working.
You are right utterly though, bikes are getting very expensive in the UK and because of this, the customer base is just getting older... which means the manufaturers just cater for the aging customer base. Hopefully with the influx of some pretty cool A2 bikes and mid sized dualsports/adv/sport bikes will get some younger folk back into bikes.
Sadly, people have been tricked into thinking unless you have a 200+bhp sportsbike, you can't go fast, or a huge BMW GS you can't travel, or a bloated adv bike you can't have adventures.
Something I really want to do is get shot of my large cc bikes (ok I will keep Daffy ((which is sort of a budget bike so sort of fits the plan)) LOL), and get a couple of different styles of A2 bike to just show how much fun can be had with them, on track, in the dirt and travelling/adventuring.
Everything 100% spot on, I can't add to it but just think the cool A2 bikes are gonna come from China which means new riders should be able to afford them 🤞
@@wsmv Sadly too much comes from China, be it their own companies, or other bike companies getting them to build the bikes.
My local Indian dealership in the USA cannot order new bikes, if you want an Indian you order it from the factory and have it delivered to said dealership. No new bikes to look at or test ride. My Harley Davidson dealership inTN solved this problem by buying the bikes themselves and having them for sale. A large capital investment for sure, but it works. Any bikes left over each year are either wholesaled or severely discounted to get rid of them. This works fine as this dealership of three stores does quite well.
Thats a great plan, but as you said a huge investment from the dealership.
Here in the UK we are losing HD dealers at an alarming rate. I worry we soon won't have a new HD market.
Are retailers in the US struggling with sales?
Such a shame to see all these dealerships closing down, and the ones that remain having to drop brands because they can't justify the manufacturers demands.
I won't buy a brand new bike anymore, I don't keep them long enough and lose out big time when I sell them. I'll buy bikes that are a couple of years old and already taken that big hit in value. I can only see the Chinese brands getting stronger.
I agree, and if the established brands don't act quickly then they are going to be in serious trouble that they can't recover from 🤞
Sales of bikes in Asia are flourishing, Weston, but only for low to medium capacity machines. I agree with you that European pricing is ridiculous. Added to that we have the Euro 5+ rubbish. There is also of course this stupid country consecutive governments of which have demonised motorcycles.
Harley have shot themselves in the foot in more ways than one. There is the distribution method you mentioned and their reluctance to produce different genres of machine instead of their mainstream half ton cruiser type.
It's a slippery slope of greed unfortunately, let's hope they all realise before it's too late 🤷♂️
Probably. R. In the uk you have to
factor in the costs of a liscence and
all the other stuff, as well as the bike.
There are many other bikes than
HD and indian which is all that
is spoken about.
I happen to like bikes that go and
handle and are reliable and are
good on fuel, and have plenty of
horsepower without having to
add 10k worth of extras. R
Ah you need a ducati 😎👍
I think since we left the EU selling and maintaining agricultural machinery has become more difficult.
🤣🤣 Nice 🚜
I bought a new V-Strom 800DE in 2023. Inside of 6 months the frame was rusting and the spokes had tarnished. If this is "new bike quality", I won't buy another new one.
Not something you expect from any new bike, especially one of the big 4 who pride themselves on quality and reliability ☹️
@@wsmv Yep. 3,200 miles, stored inside. Never off-road.
St. John’s Newfoundland is getting ready to close down permanently and it’s a fairly new Harley Dealership.They never sell a bike.
Isn't that going to be extremely seasonal because of the weather? Would be very hard to create a viable business that only operates for a section of the year, especially if the manufacturer puts unrealistic expectations on the 🤷♂️
My take , I live 30 miles north of Milwaukee. Since hiring new CEO in 2020 he ruined the company. I went to HD party last year on 1945 U Flathead out of respect for Willie G 's birthday only. I will not participate this year at all or ever. Until Yohan Zikes + Board of Directors are fired by Owners who are the share holders now I believe.
David, it's awesome to get a comment from someone so close the ground zero of this problem, thank you.
HD is a global brand that should be able to rest on its history and quality to sell bikes and merchandise, but it seems like they are hell bent on stripping the network down to its bare minimum which won't end well.
Stay safe my friend and I hope the winter isn't hitting you too hard over there 👍
My local HD dealer in Winnersh, Berkshire has closed down. Not sure when but definitely gone!!
That one you're talking about was the first HD dealer that I bought a t short from, starting a collection from around the world. So sad to see it go because it was a stunning showroom 😢
Hey mate just letting you know the Indan FTR is no longer being made there sellout all the stock they have which is estimated to about the middle of this year and then second hand will be all there is. Anyway have a good one
It's a stunning looking bike, possible one of the most beautiful bikes ever designed 😍
I'll have to wait until the second hand prices drop though 😩
Ok, I'm a bit of an old poop, I've seen them come and go, a few times. I can assure you that motorcycle sales are cyclic in nature, you make hay while the sun shines, and hopefully, when the sun isn't shining, you have some of that hay in the barn to see you through.
Economically we have been in a recession since 2020, first thing to go, in a recession, are things not necessary, and motorcycles are that.
Harley Davidson has always had a fairly loose grip on reality, but it's that loose grip that keeps them going when others have thrown in the towel.
This time the current bikes have been given a double dose of technology, which effectively tethers the bikes to dealerships, for updates and what have you, so the numbers of dealers might decrease, but a dealership will be required to service the things.
So, don't worry about it.
The upside to this is, there should be some pretty good deals on used bikes............................
Hey George, you sound like you've got some experience around the comings and goings of the HD life cycle.
I love the brand, would love to own a new one, but simply can't afford it. But right now I believe there are less than a dozen HD dealers in the country, and I fear that when the market starts to come back they won't reopen as they've moved on to pastures more budget oriented.
I hope the changes there will happen sooner now with changes in government. Perhaps DT should start wearing a "Make Harley great again" hat 😎👍
@@wsmv I really don't like buying a thing, be it a motorcycle, or a computer, that keeps you tethered to a dealer because of the unnecessary technology. There was a time, back in the '70s, when HD had only 2 customers, law enforcement, and outlaws. They grew the brand from there, making HD more mainstream, but it's transient and not dependable, especially in these tough economic times. Save what cash you can, who knows, a steal of a deal might come your way? In my 60 years of riding I've owned only 2 new motorcycles.
Triumph are selling loads of there 400s. Hondas new 1000 hornet is a hell of a proposition. People are broke but still want to bike. Some manufacturers realised this and are reacting. Harley just put there prices up! They need entry level and accessible or they are finished.
Agreed mate 👍
The difficulty in getting a full big bike licence really doesn't help getting younger people interested in bikes when a nice and warm car is easier to get, and your girlfriend/boyfriend would probably rather sit in a comfortable, warm seat than perched on the back of a cold motorcycle.
New bikes are ridiculously overpriced too, the prices are scary high for the type of model of bikes that would entice people to dream about owning one of them. When you see your dream bike costs over £25,000 to £35,000 it's not a surprise that's going to put a lot of potential buyers off from doing so.
Personally ive not got a car, nor a car license, ive always ridden motorbikes since passing my test in the early 90s. But youngsters dont think like that now, bikes arent looked at as being cool, but dangerous machines, that are expensive and no one wants to get cold and wet on a bike, they'd rather be warm and dry in a car.... 🤷
Sadly we are in a different world where peoples fear of risk is much greater than it ever used to be. Apparently life is precious these day, in my day if it was your time then so be it 🤣
I'm proud that my daughter rides a motorbike, (not sure who she gets it from) and my son loves bikes but hasn't bought one yet.
I hope the next generation will be as reckless as we were 🤣🤣
The UK will be an emerging market economy soon with cheaper Chinese bikes and second hand market providing the majority of trade.
I suspect you are spot on there my friend 👍
My local Harley Davidson dealerships are doing great by buying the bikes themselves and then offering them for sale.
That's something I've just found out about, seems like a great business plan, just the initial risk involved 😎👍
Just don’t like the overall looks of new bikes! Harley Davidson I used to love the chrome, wire spoked wheels etc and now they’re more into the blackout versions not to mention super expensive.
It’s too bad they canceled the Bronx and was a decent looking bike!
I’ll stick to the vintage motorcycles
Yeah I really like the look of the bronx, and have to agree the timeless look of the classic harleys can't be beaten (Japan Tey but fail all the time)
I don't mind the new stuff but it feels less harley and more European imo 🤷♂️
Went in for a new Pan America. Got offered peanuts for my trade in Street bob so that was that… street bob will do for another few years…
Such a shame that the market is strangling itself even when there's good food on the table. (I'd stick with the street Bob too, stunning bike) 😎👍
Chinese bikes are bit like Ryanair. You don’t expect much but are then pleasantly surprised what you get. Compared to brands where you expect a lot and are then disappointed. It might still be a better bike but it is all about expectations.
Thats a really good way to describe it, the expectation is what will make or break the love of a bike, I was so surprised by the quality of the benelli TRK, awesome bike 👍
Harley and BMW, are notorious for making unreasonable and expensive demands, on dealerships.
'Some' Japanese manufacturers, are also following suit.
As you said, costs are a huge factor too.
Royal enfield, Chinese bikes too, are, as you said, far more affordable!
Unfortunately, the UK market, accounts for about 1% of European sales, so manufacturers don't care what happens in the UK.
1% ? That's a tiny proportion that really surprises me, hopefully when global warming kicks in it'll be a year round hobby and we will sell more 🤣
@wsmv 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Apparently, it's about 0.1% world wide!!
@grumpsrides42 😱
BMW has always been a premium brand, and not a cheap brand. Just to point that out. As you said, for those people who want a more affordable motorcycle, are better of buying a cheaper honda chinese brand or royal enfield as you said. 👍
Is Riders in Bristol the only HD dealer left now in the south west?
I think so Neil, I think the design of the bristol branch means they can have a separate are to the ducati side 🤷♂️
Harley Davidson dealerships have thousands of square footage of properties to pay for. Taxes, insurance, lights, climate control, etc. If you're not dumb enough to help them out, the next fool walking in will.
One dealerships by me has an outdoor music venue in their parking lot. Who pays for that? You do! If you drop any coin there at all.
Wise up. Don't get foolish. Let me know when, or even if, you see a sale at any Harley Davidson dealers. I'll grow old first...
Making money is the priority of any business, but when the restrictions and expectations placed on the front line dealers makes it not profitable, then its little wonder the customer is being priced out of the market
Harley will turn into something like Ducati or Triumph in the states. Less people want to ride and it’s also too expensive. So smaller and less dealerships selling a lot less bikes. Maybe eventually online sales too. I don’t see how you fix it.
I agree, but when HD start becoming a lower volume sales company in the US then all hope will be lost for them, that's their market 🤷♂️
I'd never buy a vehicle I hadn't test driven or ridden - at least a representative model [different color maybe, not but not different options].
As for prices... I watched a video recently that compared HD prices from 10 or 15 years ago to today, and adjusting for inflation, they were the same price or cheaper - with all the upgrades! So it's not a price thing as far as I'm aware. I agree though, the big bike manufacturers need to produce actual entry-level bikes. If Harley came out with the Bronx, with the 1250 Rev Max, the current Skyline OS, and rider modes, and at $12-15k, they'd make a killing. Heck, even if it was $17k, they'd sell a ton of them. If the big bike MFGs made a ton of cheaper bikes, like the Indian and Chinese companies do, then they could really make the big Touring bikes "halo" bikes. They wouldn't have to sell 50,000 Street Glides a year to keep the lights on.
Spot on John, I fell in love with the bronx when it was first teased, then the live wire came with similar styling that looked great but had the wrong powerplant.
I can't afford a big 'glide' in any of their forms new but I love the fact that I own a harley, even if it is an old girls bike 🤣
@@wsmv Oh yeah. LiveWire is fun to ride - I test rode one - but EV infrastructure and range isn't there for me. The claimed highway range doesn't cover my commute.
As for the Sportster - ignore the haters. My wife's Sporty 1200 is probably faster than my Street Glide. And lighter. And probably nimbler too. [spell check says that's a word].
So, they're fun to ride, enjoy it :D And they make the potato potato sound, at half the cost. WIN!
complete kawasaki in Yeovil part of the recent collapse a month or so ago.. now Blade in Swindon along with their Harley dealership in Abingdon ... sad times
These companies expectations in a faltering market are totally unrealistics 🤷♂️
People dont want half ton 25k monsters anymore, thats why the likes of Triumph 400s and Royal Enfields are selling like mad.
I think the cost of the bikes, insurance etc on roads that aren't in good enough condition for these big cruisers may kill the market in this country 🤷♂️
They ignored the lower powered market, and it has probably cost them dear. Not eveyone wants a bike you struggle to push around, or can't pick up if you drop it, or requires a second mortgage.. The idea that you start on a low cc bike and build youself up to a 2.35 litre monster, is the dealer propaganda that is sold to the public. The 'beginner bike' is total garbage, people have been around the world on 125'cc bikes and less, I would hardly call them beginners, it's just a garbage insult promoted to sell expensive obsolescence.
Ignoring the entry level bike market may be their biggest mistake, the monster saved ducati. The lower priced triumphs are selling by the bucket load, and royal Enfield can't produce enough bikes to cope with demand.
Build quality, price competitively, lead the market, seems almost too simple 🤷♂️
I would never buy a Harley .
Expensive junk motorcycles.
If you want reliability Japanese bikes, cheaper .
I've had no reliability issues with my 20 year old sportster, but can't argue the reliability of Japanese bikes is second to none. Although I think the Chinese companies have really got their act together recently with the quality of the product they produce 👍
@wsmv Been riding motorcycles for 51 years now, people that i know who owned Harleys , most of them sold them within a year or less.
They said it was a money pit for the most part & the bike Harley run properly.
I would never buy Chinese motorcycles as well.
Quality control is like a yo-yo, up & down for the most part.
@richardloo6572 I can only speak as I find, my harley has been brilliant and like I say that's 20 years old, and both my benelli and daughters bike are both chinese built but the quality is as good as anything you find from low end Japanese bikes or royal Enfield 🤷♂️
I think there's a few things going on, first being that riding is not attracting new riders. The economy is not good and prices for H-D (and Indian) are ridiculously high. Never a good mix. Then there is Jochen Zeitz and the rest of the BoD's who went off the deep end with their new strategies - making H-D a boutique dealer and going all-electric by 2030? Who the heck wants a quiet motorcycle??? LOL. The market is flooded with used motorcycles and much better deals than you'd get if you bought new. It seems their strategies are self-defeating and they are misreading the market. 🤷♂
I agree with everything you've said 100% Johnny, dealers are also having to preregistration bikes at the end of the year to make targets that manufacturers expect to then pay our bonuses (very often retailers sell bikes and cars at a loss in the hope they get these bonus payments)
I drive an electric car but do I want an electric bike, hell no 😎👍
Oxford (Abingdon) closed last Wednesday, just as i phoned them to take my FLH in on AA Trailer. Had to go to Cheltenham who say they are safe, for now?
It's scary mate, the deposits on high end HD's are like the total cost of small Chinese bike, and if the dealer shuts its doors your money is on hold until the administrators release it, which could take months.
Have you got your bike now 🤞 what did you get, and did abingdon explain the reasons?
The new CEO is running MoCo into the ground.
Came with good ideas but without the heart of the company beating the drum to get them done 🤷♂️
this solus model they all seem to be trying is just not working Triumph went for it in my local area. that new dealer went bust and we haven't got a Triumph now in the area at all
It's a sad state to be in right now, lots of people talking about the used market but if new bikes aren't manufactured and sold there won't be a used market ☹️
Young people just aren't that interested in Harley Davidson's because they cost as much as a decent car. Edinburgh Harley Davidson is closing or has already closed. They're dying off in the UK for sure. Its also the insurance is huge now. Biking used to be a cheaper alternative to driving but it just isn't anymore.
NOOOOOOOO, not Edinburgh HD, I drove to Edinburgh to get a t shirt from there which is one of my favourites.
I knew saltire had closed in Edinburgh but they were multi franchise, I'll be gutted if the city loses another major franchise dealer 😔
@ yeah , sadly .
@bootlebadboy 😢😢
It's the people that work there I feel sorry for, they were really brilliant and polite when I went there, but to be fair so was everyone else in Edinburgh ❤️🏴
@@wsmv it’s April it’s closing . th-cam.com/video/DDRq0pHKnjE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=_63IiEWSmdF2jZUW
The should go direct. The dealers make 30% + on the sale
You need the dealership for service and warranty and they have overhead.
I don't need the dealership at all. It's just a middleman that exists to steal your money. The manufacturer can sell direct, and authorize the independents to do warranty repairs. They already do the service, since the dealership won't service a bike that's 10 yrs old or older. Sadly, we can't buy direct.
We can't buy direct in the UK, but even if we could the dealers would not be able to survive on warranty claims alone and would shit down. They need the sales and aftersales business to remain profitable.
And without warranty support you have no customers prepared to take the risk on a new bike, and then no sales mean the manufacturer goes under 🤷♂️
Personally I hope the HD dealer in my town shuts down and soon. $31,000 dollars out the door are they insane? They still have 2024 bikes that are unsold.
So many issues around pricing, but the people that work there and need the job to heat and feed their families are the real losers when dealers shut down 😔
When motorcycle manufacturers realize that you have to have disposable income to buy a motorcycle. You need cheap bikes to get your customer base as China and Japan have done. Harley has the smaller cheaper bike but never promote them in Canada.
Instead of buying a new cheap piece of crap Harley. You can go buy an amazing used bike.
I would always say the harley product is awesome, and definitely premium.
The evo engine is one of the most reliable engines in history (low stress) but I agree used will be the market to enter where you can get a real bargain if you can cope with not taking a bikes virginity 🤷♂️
The new one's are great but they're priced out of the market. Just like cars and trucks.
Sadly I don't see it getting any better any time soon. Its like they don't want to sell in volume anymore because they make enough profit on lower numbers 🤷♂️
Harley will outlive the UK zero emission mandate
Only a few years left for new petrol bikes
Let's hope bio or synthetic fuels become viable before the electric market is the only one we have 😱
They will be OK if they jettison WOKE with NO equvocation.
Can you see sufficiently rearward with the underslung RVMs ?
The visibility with underslung mirrors is far better, I'm not competing with my elbows all the time. 😁👍
That Bronx will be $13k. Way too much $ to compete. It needs to be around $10k max
I think 13k will be a good price point if it maintains the HD quality, rather than the awful Chinese rubbish that they commissioned for other markets.
It seriously consider £11k for a bronx 😍