John Whidden is my no-so-next-door neighbor(6 miles) and distant cousin so it still to this day feels strange seeing one of his products in a video on TH-cam. Very cool. They produce some of, if not the best dies in the industry, if anyone is just starting out i would recommend only their dies. I have 36 rcbs, redding, Lyman dies I wish were whidden gun works..
I love the Wilson case gauge. It gives you the latitude to measure fully loaded rifle case as well as necks for trimming and your headspace. It is a very useful tool. Just got to make sure it is clean and particle free
Switched from the Hornady to the SAC headspace gauge, it's so much worth it! It's super solid when you measure as it has more purchase on the shoulder.
SAC version is great. Works similar to Hornady and Sinclair versions. However, shoulder angle is matched perfectly, giving much more solid feel, no wiggle, and near perfect repeatability. Worth the money - you will be happy happy with the purchase. I have the Wilson, Whidden, Hornady versions that you demonstrated, along with the Sinclair caliper version (like the Hornady). I use the SAC exclusively now on a dedicated Mitutoyo digital caliper - I find it to be the easiest, quickest, and most repeatable for me. Thanks for all your hard work and reviews.
SAC version is great. Works similar to Hornady and Sinclair versions. However, shoulder angle is matched perfectly, giving much more solid feel, no wiggle, and near perfect repeatability. Worth the money - you will be happy happy with the purchase. I have the Wilson, Whidden, Hornady versions that you demonstrated, along with the Sinclair caliper version (like the Hornady). I use the SAC exclusively now on a dedicated Mitutoyo digital caliper - I find it to be the easiest, quickest, and most repeatable for me. Thanks for all your hard work and reviews.
My Whidden case gauges Caliber Specific are great along with my LE Wilson Micro Adjust and K&M Arbor Press with Dial were awesome to help my shoiring.They are expensive but thats just life.I use all if what you showcased.The Shoulder Bump a n d Click Adjustable Sizer Die help me tremendously .
i had same "trouble" for giving a name. Force applied gives me a half a thou +/-. As you say it all comes in repeatability. Thanks again for sharing John !
I have had good success with the Whidden. A caution though, if you get going too fast, it is easy to start a cross thread. A word of caution: since your measurement is based on thread tension, it is important to keep the unit consistently clean. I use Imperial sizing wax and noticed that when handling the tool, some wax residue from my fingers gets on the threads after several uses. This lubricity changed the thread tension and resulting measurement.
I've been using the hornady body with mitutoyo 6" calipers just like the one in the video but I tossed the aluminum inserts and made my own headspace and bullet comparator inserts out of 303 stainless steel on the lathe. Solved all of my repeatability issues and I KNOW the bore diameter is correct.
I personally found that the Wilson and SAC/Caliper give me consistent results. I could not make the Widden work for me: rotating the cartridge a bit and taking another measurement, or shaking the cartridge within the gauge before taking another measurement would give me different readings. Also found that Sinclair versus SAC is night and day - SAC is spot on.
Hi John, I bought a Wilson case depth gage after watching your video and have found it to result in problems and provided inaccurate measurements in my hands.... went back to using the Hornady gage and the Sinclair bump gage, and my chambering problems went away. Waiting on new gages from SAC. I have to admit that I likely would not have discovered that the gage was the problem until a read an older thread on AccurateShooter reloading forum entitled: Hard Bolt Close Rem 700 17 Fireball (read post #32 on this thread, where the OP figured out what the problem was). I have lots of LE Wilson dies/gages and am surprised/disappointed in this tool....
I'm sorry to hear you had problems. I got my SAC GAUGES since this video and will be doing a followup. Every gauge has it's own quirks and the more of them I use the more I realize there's sadly still no perfect one yet and right now I just comes down to the person and which gage fits them the best.
Hi John! May I suggest that you premise you’re Brass preparation (sizing) recommendations (shoulder bump) for your bolt action rifles. Some service rifle (M1 Garand or M1A) hand loaders may not be aware of the differences between a bolt action rifle and a semi automatic service rifle relative to brass resizing. Military rifles require greater shoulder bumping (maybe 0.005”) to function properly. Always use a case gauge and verify in your rifle chamber! My point is, you are speaking to a wide audience and they may not know your specific firearm hand loading needs (bolt action). I know what you are doing but many may not and apply your information to a semi-automatic chambering rifle witj very poor safety results.
I have the Forster datum dial kit, much better built than the Hornady, and it is like the Hornady in that it covers a bunch of cartridges, and comes out to about the same price as a Wilson as I remember it.
Hey love your channel. It’s very honest and informative and it has helped a lot. Have a problem with inconsistency in shoulder bump. I use Lapua brass, and out of 50 shells I get a 2 thousand variance. Please help. I try and bump my shoulders 2 thousands, and some cases end up with a 4 thousands bump. Thank you.
Great timing on video. I'm resizing Alpha 6.5 CM brass with Whidden bushing die. If I measure "bump" with LE Wilson case gauge micrometer at .002, brass is difficult to chamber. I then check same piece of brass against comparator measurement(using Whidden provided comparator) there is zero bump on comparator measurement. If I bump until I get a .002 reading on comparator, brass will chamber nicely but Wilson micrometer measurements reads a bump of .005-6. What gives?
@@FClassJohn Imho it would be worth contacting them to see if one can be custom made for you. It is the quickest and most repeatably accurate method when used correctly in my opinion. There isn't any error from inconsistent pressure applied as with the other methods. The ram is at rest every time. AND...using a .0005 dial instead of the .001 dial makes it even more accurate for readings (for those OCD types). Lastly, it can do the same with case o.a.l. or bullet seating depth. It is ONLY a comparator so the caliper set is still needed for total length measurements, but used for setting up a die for shoulder bump or seating depth it is unbeatable imo. (Says a student to a master. lol. Sorry. I just really believe in the product)
On my fired brass in my 6.5 Grendel AR-15 my shoulder moved forward. .010 compared to when my brass was brand new. My question is should I move the shoulder back to .006 to .008? If so my brass will be above the upper step of my case gauge.
I’m not super familiar with that cartridge but traditionally you want to move it back from where it fireformed, not where it originally started. It sounds like your chamber might be a little bit longer than you expected which is why it’s growing more. I’m honestly not familiar with how much the bump the shoulder back for a gas gun but I know it is more than Bolt guns.
Question: Is the shoulder bump measurement more important for bolt guns as opposed to semiautomatic weapons, Since I am using FL dies for my semi autos? Thank you. Great video.
Bump is definitely important for gas guns because of cycling and firing issues. Too little or too much can have a much bigger effect in gas guns compared to bolt guns.
I do not understand the difference between shoulder bumping and setting cartridge headspace. When I headspace a cartridge I am in reality bumping the shoulder back. If I shoulder bump, I am in reality bumping the shoulder back. What is the difference?
ive only had the hornady version for ages now, and find its not that consistent /accurate. thought maybe it was just me not sure. been looking around doing a lot of research for alternative think you have sold me going to give the wilson one a go
So, John, which measurement do you think is the critical one - Datum to Ogive, using the AI guage or Base to Ogive using the SAC, Redding or Hornady micrometer attachments? My arbor press will give me almost identical Base to Ogive results but there is more variance when using the AI Datum to Ogive measurement. AI would say that the Datum to Ogive is most important as the firing pin drives the case forward until the shoulder/Datum touches. Conventional reloaders have always used Base to Ogive.
so if you measure before you resize the case and then remeasure after you resize the case won't the difference between the two measurements be affected by the resizing of the case by the die ? the case will get stretched in length by resizing and this will affect the headspace measurement correct ?
In theory your brass should always measure the same or less at the shoulder if it's sizing correctly. There are times when you size and the dies isn't down far enough and it will actually lengthen your brass and that's not good.
@@FClassJohn thanks but I did it again twice with four shot 223 cases and before I full length the cases were from top to bottom dia of .360 - .366 - .375 and after sizing they were .356 - .363 - .375 and overall length went from .755 to .756.5 ? I measured dia. & length with a Mitutoya caliper which is suppose to be one on the better ones. This has been ongoing for the better part of a year and so far no problems so maybe 223 due to their size are different. Now when I resize I do not include a dia bushing in my match die instead when I body size then I use my Lee Collet Neck Sizing die which is installed on another press right beside my first one. I like that mandrel for internal sizing (.221.5) and the squeezing of the collet. Less brass movement :)
Fastest for sure if you’re checking a lot of pieces. My results are very good with it, but we have to be honest that there are a lot more places for error to occur (like stacking tolerances). I think you need to check your first couple using these “more intimate” methods, then switch to the Instant Indicator for the rest.
WHILE I HAVE YOUR EAR...DO YOU BELIEVE THE LE DIE IN AN ARBOR PRESS TO GIVES YOU BETTER, IF NOT THE BEAT RESULTS IN REGARDS TO CONCENTRICITY IN BULLET SEATING. VS...SAY A REDDING COMP. VLD APPLICATION PARTICULARLY
I have used both the Accuracy One comparator John mentioned, and the SAC (Short Action Customs). Both are well made, solid, and very repeatable. I also get repeatable and consistent results between the two (once you account for case length). You have to decide which measure best suits your needs: The Accuracy One measures shoulder datum to ogive; while the SAC measures case base to ogive. However, the Accuracy One is much faster - look at the videos on their site or TH-cam - just push in and look at reading. No adjusting calipers and spinning the case. I agree with John, and have started using the Accuracy One unit now for all my recordings and record those numbers for variance and consistency with seating depth and therefore ogive to lands. I still use the SAC to measure and record Base to Ogive to ensure overall consistency, safety, and reliable chambering.
What would you consider to be too much shoulder bump? I have my set up for about 0.002 but actual bump will vary about 0.0005 either way. Thank you, love the videos
It really depends on whether you're using a bolt or semi-auto. Most would consider .004 the max on a bolt but for a semi-auto it will probably be more like .005" or more but I don't shoot a lot of semi-auto so it's not my area of expertise.
I can’t express how much I appreciate a short intro!!!!
Thank you and I’m glad. I’m the exact same way.
John Whidden is my no-so-next-door neighbor(6 miles) and distant cousin so it still to this day feels strange seeing one of his products in a video on TH-cam. Very cool. They produce some of, if not the best dies in the industry, if anyone is just starting out i would recommend only their dies. I have 36 rcbs, redding, Lyman dies I wish were whidden gun works..
I love the Wilson case gauge. It gives you the latitude to measure fully loaded rifle case as well as necks for trimming and your headspace. It is a very useful tool. Just got to make sure it is clean and particle free
Switched from the Hornady to the SAC headspace gauge, it's so much worth it! It's super solid when you measure as it has more purchase on the shoulder.
I actually just ordered one a few minutes ago. I'm excited to test it out.
SAC version is great. Works similar to Hornady and Sinclair versions. However, shoulder angle is matched perfectly, giving much more solid feel, no wiggle, and near perfect repeatability. Worth the money - you will be happy happy with the purchase. I have the Wilson, Whidden, Hornady versions that you demonstrated, along with the Sinclair caliper version (like the Hornady). I use the SAC exclusively now on a dedicated Mitutoyo digital caliper - I find it to be the easiest, quickest, and most repeatable for me. Thanks for all your hard work and reviews.
SAC version is great. Works similar to Hornady and Sinclair versions. However, shoulder angle is matched perfectly, giving much more solid feel, no wiggle, and near perfect repeatability. Worth the money - you will be happy happy with the purchase. I have the Wilson, Whidden, Hornady versions that you demonstrated, along with the Sinclair caliper version (like the Hornady). I use the SAC exclusively now on a dedicated Mitutoyo digital caliper - I find it to be the easiest, quickest, and most repeatable for me. Thanks for all your hard work and reviews.
My Whidden case gauges Caliber Specific are great along with my LE Wilson Micro Adjust and K&M Arbor Press with Dial were awesome to help my shoiring.They are expensive but thats just life.I use all if what you showcased.The Shoulder Bump a n d Click Adjustable Sizer Die help me tremendously .
i had same "trouble" for giving a name. Force applied gives me a half a thou +/-. As you say it all comes in repeatability. Thanks again for sharing John !
Glad you liked it.
I have had good success with the Whidden. A caution though, if you get going too fast, it is easy to start a cross thread.
A word of caution: since your measurement is based on thread tension, it is important to keep the unit consistently clean. I use Imperial sizing wax and noticed that when handling the tool, some wax residue from my fingers gets on the threads after several uses. This lubricity changed the thread tension and resulting measurement.
Thank you and I totally agree.
I started with Hornady headspace gauge, then switched to the Forster never looked back, very consistent results.
Yup. But I ended up buying extra “bodies” so I didn’t have to (literally) screw around with switching the cylinders.
@@OFFICIALUND bought 2 bodies for each measurement headspace and base to o-drive, works perfect.
Never realised how to measure the shoulder of the brass but now I have ordered a suitable gauge. Thanks for sharing
Glad it helped
I've been using the hornady body with mitutoyo 6" calipers just like the one in the video but I tossed the aluminum inserts and made my own headspace and bullet comparator inserts out of 303 stainless steel on the lathe. Solved all of my repeatability issues and I KNOW the bore diameter is correct.
I personally found that the Wilson and SAC/Caliper give me consistent results. I could not make the Widden work for me: rotating the cartridge a bit and taking another measurement, or shaking the cartridge within the gauge before taking another measurement would give me different readings. Also found that Sinclair versus SAC is night and day - SAC is spot on.
Yeah I can see that with the Widden since it's not a tight fit like the Wilson.
Good Vid John 👍👍👍👍👍💖💖💖💖💖😎😎😎📐📐📐📐📐
Thank you.
a bit looser shoulder bump centers bullets into the rifling when cartridge is driven forward by firing pin
I can’t believe more companies aren’t making shoulder comparators. Hornady is the only one I can find.
I feel Short Action Customs makes the best one I’ve been using it for years now.
L.E. Wilson also makes one, used with their case length headspace gauges. Search for "L.E. Wilson Case Gauge Depth Micrometer"
Hi John, I bought a Wilson case depth gage after watching your video and have found it to result in problems and provided inaccurate measurements in my hands.... went back to using the Hornady gage and the Sinclair bump gage, and my chambering problems went away. Waiting on new gages from SAC. I have to admit that I likely would not have discovered that the gage was the problem until a read an older thread on AccurateShooter reloading forum entitled: Hard Bolt Close Rem 700 17 Fireball (read post #32 on this thread, where the OP figured out what the problem was). I have lots of LE Wilson dies/gages and am surprised/disappointed in this tool....
I'm sorry to hear you had problems. I got my SAC GAUGES since this video and will be doing a followup. Every gauge has it's own quirks and the more of them I use the more I realize there's sadly still no perfect one yet and right now I just comes down to the person and which gage fits them the best.
Hi John! May I suggest that you premise you’re Brass preparation (sizing) recommendations (shoulder bump) for your bolt action rifles. Some service rifle (M1 Garand or M1A) hand loaders may not be aware of the differences between a bolt action rifle and a semi automatic service rifle relative to brass resizing. Military rifles require greater shoulder bumping (maybe 0.005”) to function properly. Always use a case gauge and verify in your rifle chamber! My point is, you are speaking to a wide audience and they may not know your specific firearm hand loading needs (bolt action). I know what you are doing but many may not and apply your information to a semi-automatic chambering rifle witj very poor safety results.
That’s a very good suggestion. I’ll work to frame my reason and how I reload for what I do in the future. Thank you.
Whidden has caliper mounted bump gages too.. I have some inbound. I hate how long the hornady body is when measuring cases with no bullet..
I have the Forster datum dial kit, much better built than the Hornady, and it is like the Hornady in that it covers a bunch of cartridges, and comes out to about the same price as a Wilson as I remember it.
Hey love your channel. It’s very honest and informative and it has helped a lot. Have a problem with inconsistency in shoulder bump. I use Lapua brass, and out of 50 shells I get a 2 thousand variance. Please help. I try and bump my shoulders 2 thousands, and some cases end up with a 4 thousands bump. Thank you.
Where did you get the part on the fixed end of the Caliper the cartridge base sits against?
Thanks for the information
If you bump the shoulders back in a sizing die you are full length resizing. Unless you have a special bump die that just bumps the shoulders
Yes I FL size every time.
I prefer the Sinclair versions to the Hornady version. And also the L.E. Wilson version.
Great timing on video. I'm resizing Alpha 6.5 CM brass with Whidden bushing die. If I measure "bump" with LE Wilson case gauge micrometer at .002, brass is difficult to chamber. I then check same piece of brass against comparator measurement(using Whidden provided comparator) there is zero bump on comparator measurement. If I bump until I get a .002 reading on comparator, brass will chamber nicely but Wilson micrometer measurements reads a bump of .005-6. What gives?
Ever used reddings instant indicator for headspace?
They don't make them for my caliber.
@@FClassJohn Imho it would be worth contacting them to see if one can be custom made for you. It is the quickest and most repeatably accurate method when used correctly in my opinion. There isn't any error from inconsistent pressure applied as with the other methods. The ram is at rest every time. AND...using a .0005 dial instead of the .001 dial makes it even more accurate for readings (for those OCD types). Lastly, it can do the same with case o.a.l. or bullet seating depth. It is ONLY a comparator so the caliper set is still needed for total length measurements, but used for setting up a die for shoulder bump or seating depth it is unbeatable imo. (Says a student to a master. lol. Sorry. I just really believe in the product)
On my fired brass in my 6.5 Grendel AR-15 my shoulder moved forward. .010 compared to when my brass was brand new. My question is should I move the shoulder back to .006 to .008?
If so my brass will be above the upper step of my case gauge.
I’m not super familiar with that cartridge but traditionally you want to move it back from where it fireformed, not where it originally started. It sounds like your chamber might be a little bit longer than you expected which is why it’s growing more. I’m honestly not familiar with how much the bump the shoulder back for a gas gun but I know it is more than Bolt guns.
Question: Is the shoulder bump measurement more important for bolt guns as opposed to semiautomatic weapons, Since I am using FL dies for my semi autos? Thank you. Great video.
Bump is definitely important for gas guns because of cycling and firing issues. Too little or too much can have a much bigger effect in gas guns compared to bolt guns.
I do not understand the difference between shoulder bumping and setting cartridge headspace.
When I headspace a cartridge I am in reality bumping the shoulder back. If I shoulder bump, I am in reality bumping the shoulder back. What is the difference?
Thanks good video and information
Thank you
ive only had the hornady version for ages now, and find its not that consistent /accurate.
thought maybe it was just me not sure. been looking around doing a lot of research for alternative think you have
sold me going to give the wilson one a go
Hi do you shoulder bump with a fl sizing die?
yes
So, John, which measurement do you think is the critical one - Datum to Ogive, using the AI guage or Base to Ogive using the SAC, Redding or Hornady micrometer attachments? My arbor press will give me almost identical Base to Ogive results but there is more variance when using the AI Datum to Ogive measurement. AI would say that the Datum to Ogive is most important as the firing pin drives the case forward until the shoulder/Datum touches. Conventional reloaders have always used Base to Ogive.
You use this tool after the brass is full sized?
so if you measure before you resize the case and then remeasure after you resize the case won't the difference between the two measurements be affected by the resizing of the case by the die ?
the case will get stretched in length by resizing and this will affect the headspace measurement correct ?
In theory your brass should always measure the same or less at the shoulder if it's sizing correctly. There are times when you size and the dies isn't down far enough and it will actually lengthen your brass and that's not good.
@@FClassJohn thanks but I did it again twice with four shot 223 cases and before I full length the cases were from top to bottom dia of .360 - .366 - .375 and after sizing they were .356 - .363 - .375 and overall length went from .755 to .756.5 ? I measured dia. & length with a Mitutoya caliper which is suppose to be one on the better ones.
This has been ongoing for the better part of a year and so far no problems so maybe 223 due to their size are different. Now when I resize I do not include a dia bushing in my match die instead when I body size then I use my Lee Collet Neck Sizing die which is installed on another press right beside my first one. I like that mandrel for internal sizing (.221.5) and the squeezing of the collet. Less brass movement :)
No Redding instant indicator?! By far the best tool.
Fastest for sure if you’re checking a lot of pieces. My results are very good with it, but we have to be honest that there are a lot more places for error to occur (like stacking tolerances). I think you need to check your first couple using these “more intimate” methods, then switch to the Instant Indicator for the rest.
WHAT ARE YOU USING FOR BASE TO OGIVE...IS THERE SOMWTHING LIKE THE WIDDEN OR LE FOR THAT?
I use the Accuracy One bullet comparator th-cam.com/video/yikYkykMCcQ/w-d-xo.html
SAC also make gauges that sit on the Ogive for use with a Caliper.
@@Eric-qu3ht I already ordered one earlier today. We will see how I like it when it gets here.
WHILE I HAVE YOUR EAR...DO YOU BELIEVE THE LE DIE IN AN ARBOR PRESS TO GIVES YOU BETTER, IF NOT THE BEAT RESULTS IN REGARDS TO CONCENTRICITY IN BULLET SEATING. VS...SAY A REDDING COMP.
VLD APPLICATION PARTICULARLY
I have used both the Accuracy One comparator John mentioned, and the SAC (Short Action Customs). Both are well made, solid, and very repeatable. I also get repeatable and consistent results between the two (once you account for case length). You have to decide which measure best suits your needs: The Accuracy One measures shoulder datum to ogive; while the SAC measures case base to ogive. However, the Accuracy One is much faster - look at the videos on their site or TH-cam - just push in and look at reading. No adjusting calipers and spinning the case. I agree with John, and have started using the Accuracy One unit now for all my recordings and record those numbers for variance and consistency with seating depth and therefore ogive to lands. I still use the SAC to measure and record Base to Ogive to ensure overall consistency, safety, and reliable chambering.
Where do you get the SAC gage?
I just ordered mine earlier today off their website www.shortactioncustoms.com/sac-original-products-1
So when you say caliber you don't really mean caliber you mean specific cartridge or chambering? So the first tool is cartridge specific.
Correct.
Whiddens are for cartridge families, e.g. 6.5-284 uses the the 284 gauge.
What would you consider to be too much shoulder bump? I have my set up for about 0.002 but actual bump will vary about 0.0005 either way.
Thank you, love the videos
It really depends on whether you're using a bolt or semi-auto. Most would consider .004 the max on a bolt but for a semi-auto it will probably be more like .005" or more but I don't shoot a lot of semi-auto so it's not my area of expertise.
@John Beige no it’s not military. It’s a defiance deviant.
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Thank you.
Why did it grow? r/
comment
Thank you