Is SHOVEL KNIGHT: POCKET DUNGEON secretly a rhythm game?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ธ.ค. 2021
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Imma need to play these games to really see, but this almost sounds like Rubik's cube solving with a metronome. You only turn the cube at the beat of a metronome in order to slow yourself down and encourage yourself to look ahead at the next moves. This breaks the habit of breaking out moves as fast as possible, then pausing to find the next moves. And depending on your skill level, a slow and steady solve at maybe 100 bpm will be faster than if you're actually trying.
whoa! i’d never heard of that technique, that’s fascinating - thanks for sharing
this sounds smart for f2l because look-ahead is important, but after recognizing the oll or pll there's no reason not to do it as fast as you can
Whoa this sounds smart for practicing look ahead on f2l
cubing on and off since 2008 and never thought of this once. also a musician
every game is a rhythm game if there's music in your heart :)
Kinda like how you crouch to the music in Mario right?
fancy seeing you around. i guess the internet is just a series of connected tubes ;)
Adieu
too pure mr. internet
Groove is in the hearrtttt
with the holidays around the corner, i'm done releasing "big" documentary-style videos for the rest of the 2021... but in the meantime, i thought it might be fun to experiment with some smaller, more casual video formats like this one. let me know if you enjoyed it!
Excited to see where you'll be going in 2022!
This is fun, nothing wrong with doing more of these smaller ones! If you enjoy the content youre producing, chances are we will aswell!
whatever is best for Nick's mental health 😌
I don't really mind!
This was great seeing your insight into such subject
I've been playing COTN for years and decided to give Pocket Dungeon a try after watching your video. I think you're 100% right. I even felt that "oof" in my head (I can't think of a better way to explain it) when I missed the beat
the animation of Shovel Knight's movement in this game is so extremely similar to Link in Hyrule Necrodancer, or the original Necrodancer that it feels that way. Just look at the way he moves: extremely fast acceleration, a short, 1 tile move on a grid, and an abrupt stop. The movement makes it look like Necrodancer so much that it triggers that in you. At least, that's my theory
I agree.
I get the feeling that game’s DLC (which was confirmed a bit before launch) will include The Bard from the original SK, with his gimmick being that you play to beat
That would be perfect
Ironic, since in NecroDancer the one and only character who doesn't have to move to the beat is Bard.
i had no clue there was DLC coming! i hope you're right about the Bard, that'd be sick
Well in the end it's just a Workshop mod
I feel this. I have yet to play pocket dungeon but everytime I've seen it I knew I would try to play it like necrodancer
I never played too much necrodancer but I played a lot of rhythm games like rhythm heaven and I'm sort of a fan of following rhythms in a game, so when I tried this new shovel knight game I straight up felt it was more enjoyable following the rhythm of the music.
I think this video sold me on pocket dungeon. As I absolutely love Crypt of the Necrodancer and its one of those games that train your ability to be on the beat. Other games I've seen with this are Mother 3 and its tempo mechanic, Bullets Per Minute, and the most recent one being NEO The World Ends With You with its Sound Surfer Mechanic.
Also if you are looking for more Necrodnacer, you should check out the Necrodancer and Zelda Crossover Game. It plays like what you'd think a Necrodancer 2 would be like and is a pretty fun time. I'd also recomend NEO and its first game for the ds, eventhough they are action games. Anyways thanks for the vid. It definitly sums up how Necrodancer changed how I played games. It worked as a great Rythm Rouge game that ties together the idea of rythm and strategy.
great suggestions! i actually didn't know the new TWEWY has a rhythm mechanic in it :0
If anyone's wondering what the Zelda game is called, it's called Cadence of Hyrule and it's fantastic.
I feel heard, I just instinctively played this game by the rythym as soon as I picked it up, I just find it satisfying doing things to music I guess
This is exactly how I played the game from the start too! I haven’t played a ton of Necrodancer because I couldn’t get that far in it, but I played enough to be able to “think on the beat” like Nick was talking about here.
I found myself playing Pocket Dungeon very quickly, which leads to a lot of gems, though I’m sure I’m making mistakes that I don’t have to. But it feels so wrong to slow down and think about my moves for a long time.
I’m gonna have to try playing the game with the sound off to see if that helps me play in a more calculated manner. I’m enjoying the game so far and I think this is an interesting phenomenon!
I think I can actually help explain this!
I'm majoring in Game Design, and there's a certain concept called Affordance which full disclosure I've struggled a bit to understand, but this honestly sounds like it fits in perfectly.
Affordance is the idea that certain designs can inspire certain interactions purely through design elements. Again it's a little hard to explain but there are two examples I remember most vividly. The first is just that people keep pens in their mugs because they afford that action (holding things, or even more specifically holding things of a certain length in an easily-accessible way), and the other is about some shop or subway or something where their windows would keep getting broken; they would install new ones and they'd just get broken the next day. Their solution was to replace the windows with those really cheap recycled wood boards, and even though those are just as easy to break, people didn't break them-they started spraying graffiti on the boards. Grass *affords* being broken, whereas wood boards afford being written on a lot more.
Again it's been kind of difficult for me to get my head around fully, and it's hard to explain, because it's this very meta thinking that I have trouble incorporating into actual design, especially when it gets more complicated, but yeah basically design choices that inspire a form of interaction without actually mentioning that interaction.
I think that's exactly what this is. The design of this game, intentionally or otherwise, *affords* playing it like Necrodancer, even though you're never told to, and the game doesn't actually interact with that playstyle in any way. As for what specific elements it is, that would require me having played either of these, but I imagine a big one is the fact that things advance on your turn, meaning you don't get things moving that aren't in harmony with the beat which is a great way to immediately throw off a rhythm, and there are also probably other design elements that were transferred over, again intentionally or otherwise, simply because they were taking inspiration from Necrodancer's gameplay, the elements of which of course afford being played like a rhythm game since it is one (I think).
Hope I explained this well enough and that this actually maybe helps a little! I'd be super happy to hear if it does; this is probably the first time my college education has actually felt relevant and useful in a social context/outside of my own projects 😂
For me personally, my biggest difficulty with this game was NOT playing it like a rhythm game, Necrodancer style. Playing it at the beat feels most most familiar and my first few hours of the game were me trying to force myself to slow down and take a second or two extra to think when I needed it. This game really FEELS more like a rhythm game (more than it does a puzzle game to me), but breaking free of the rhythm from time to time is the difference between countless stupid deaths, and going to the extra stage because you needed a tiny bit more time to realize what you really need to do.
Totally! I've been slowly working myself out of the "not moving is bad" mindset, especially during boss battles, and it's helping a lot! I'm trying to think of it as Necrodancer but with optional movement, and I think that's the sweet spot for me
I caught myself playing like necrodancer too, but it's honestly too much of a disadvantage, I just made myself play normally. Playing normally lets you speed up, much more when you know it's safe, like attacking into a monster many times in a row. It'll also let you slow down in situations that you need to think more, to prevent silly mistakes.
So glad Nick mentions Crypt of the Necrodancer as well in the beginning of the vid.
Fantastic vid! Would love to see more like it akin to this and the Doom with no textures one
I loved Shovel Knight and Cyber Shadow, and after your video im convinced that I will love this one too. Thanks Nick
this comment is somehow my first time hearing about Cyber Shadow..... i had no clue Yacht Club had put out a non-SK game!
I love these shorter videos every once in a while!
I love this wormhole you dove into, might be the best advert/review possible
Yeah dude, I enjoy these smaller videos, cause it feels the same, with your commentary And Such. Great video!
Been dashing to the beat since Mega Man X.
Also, the premise that game foreknowledge helps you in other games is practically the basis of Wario Ware.
Didn't expect you to make a video about this game but I'm glad you did
BROOO I love SHOVEL KNIGHT!! Haven't checked on it in forever, can't believe they made another game with all the characters.
The idea of playing a game differently after playing another game reminds me of how Matpat played a few games. He tried to play both the first Lisa game and Omori thinking he was playing something similar to Undertale. With Lisa he couldn't get the dark gritty humour, story, and themes because he wasn't expecting it. With Omori he saw the mood mechanic, and thought there was a way to spare the enemies in that game like you can in Undertale.
It just shows how much Undertale had stuck with him since he played it that he would expect that from both games.
I felt exactly the same from the moment I started playing the game.
Cadence would be amazing as a DLC character !
She could reward you for playing to the beat and gain strength from the music multiplicator just like with some weapons in Necrodancer.
I really hope this happens one day
THIS IS WHAT I WAS THINKING WHEN I WAS PLAYING THE GAME.
I can physically not play this game without music, my brain just shuts off, because my mind is just in necromancer mode. I definitely agree with everything in the video, but I also want to add that another way that its similar to necrodancer is that everything is synced. The headbobbing, the movement, once you're in that groove it's hard to just stop because it just feels wrong. It feels wrong to stop and think, it feels wrong to watch the enemies slowly fall down. It has its advantage, but since necrodancer has just hotwired my brain to be 'don't drop it. don't drop it. DON'T DROP IT." That I instinctively try to keep up my 'combo' meter for as long as I can.
I also want to say that the art style also reminds me in a way to cadence of Hyrule, especially the use of bright colors and shading, even when it comes to the tiled map in pocket dungeon. It all just 'fits' when I look at it. It FEELS like a necrodancer game, and that's what got me up at night. I haven't seen others play the game either, but I feel like they would be more prone to following the beat, especially since you get this sense of satisfaction any time you do it, at least for me.
This could be the start of 'The Necrodancer Syndrome' or something.
had the exact same thought when I saw the trailer for it - I'm surprised it isn't actually a rhythm game!
I don't even play COTND but I just automatically started playing to the beat a little bit. As I got better my movements started to match the music.
IVE FELT THIS BEFORE AFTER PLAYING SOME ARCADE GAMES, I JUST DIDNT HAD A WAY TO EXPLAIN ITTT
Thank you for making this video because I 100% ignored this release because I thought from the title that it was a mobile game.
I thought I was the only one who was thinking this about shovel knight pocket dungeons. Cadence of Hyrule gameplay is engraved into my brain and muscle memory.
They added an official workshop mod of the Bard with a rhythm gimmick!
You are not alone. I do play to the beat too.
Nick Robinson. I just bought Mission in Snowdriftland with some of my Christmas money. It is a really good game and I thank you for bringing it into my life.
I don't play it like that, BUT i felt that necrodancer flow while playing the first time
When I first saw that first trailer, where Shovel Knight was moving around on a grid, in darkness, the beat of a song, a was SOOO EXCITED thinking it was a Necrodancer crossover, akin to Cadence of Hyrule. But then I saw the rest of the trailer, and was very disappointed.
I hope Nick always makes videos. Always asks questions with answers and it feels genuine.
god seeing you play to the rythm is so damn satisfying i need to see more gameplay
I think necrodancer gave u an obsessive compulsive “bug”. Just like when you needlessly count steps between cracks and it works out evenly and perfectly even though It wasn’t meant to be “used” that way. Right? Do you get me?
watching other people's videos on this game it really does seem people don't usually play it like a rithim game, and that is so cool, that you can play it in such a different way and it still works just as well or even better
I thought, "This guy and Nick Robinson would probably get along really well."
Then I realized...
It also looks like the enemies move to a rhythm too
i thought the same thing at first - but if you look closely at their animations, they're actually not moving to the music at all 0_0
Totally get what you mean where you say your brain just sort of WORKS in time with necrodancer. Saw this shovelknight game on sale the other day, now considering picking it up bc i didnt know it had these small necrodancer influences before
They should add a rythm secret mode
love this format
It would be super fun and easy to make a rythem mode or just a mod for it
Crypt Of The Necrodancer and the studio behind it made an amazing dungeon crawler called quest of dungeons.
Thanks for introducing me to this gem love your content Nicky keep it up.
I haven't played Pocket Dungeon but I have played Cadence of Hyrule and really enjoyed it. I feel like I would definitely play it like that.
When you use the wrong formula on a math problem but you get the right answer:
There was an exception where myself not playing along the beat was when playing as Black Knight (you need gem multiplier as fast as possible, boost the attack, check where are the potions to avoid attack damage reset, and then kill every monster can be killed without having damage asap for more gem multiplier and attack, ... repeat)
Genuinely had to force myself to not play PD like Crypt and only realized it would be so tough after Iron Whale
yo, Iron Whale is definitely the stage where i either drop my rhythm inputs down to half-time, or just stop doing my inputs to the music entirely 😅
HOW DID I MISS THIS VIDEO?!?!?
and yes i am also playing it like necrodancer.
i too am cursed by a game i haven't played in like 1-2 years
I'm in a similar ven diagram where I played this and Cadence of Hyrule. I do not play to the music in Pocket Dungeon though. Would be cool if one of the dlc characters got a mechanic where he plays to music though
Oh I totally know that feeling, didn't played a lot of necrodancer but oh god have I played Pocket Dungeon in rythm, no joke I feel like it really is so much satisfying !
I’m glad Im not the only one who got Necrodancer vibes from Pocket Dungeon, it’d be sick if there was a rhythm mode lol
I feel the same about Tetris effect. i just naturally play to the beat
Even though I haven't played this or Necro Dancer. I 100% guarantee that I would play to the music
Bruh I just played Crypt of the Necrodancer, I love Shovel Knight so I guess I should pick up this!
drink a beer and watchin so much nick youtube video on the computer. The ideal
i just got it and i’m gonna try it while i’m at work today since it will be a slow day
I realy think they could just add a rhythm mode to the game. all they'd need to do is try to sync the natural time steps with the rhythm of the song. could be an awesome idea
its literally the same with me. the folks over at yacht club are masters at game design
It's pretty sad seeing a channel slowly die
I've also had this happen to me. I found it really hard not to move to the beat thanks to cadence of Hyrule
Personally this always happens to me when I have an itch to play a rythem game. I implement something to follow any background music and I pretty much end up turning an unexpected game to a rythem game and compare it to other games that are under the rythem game name.
I LOVE necrodancer but it's one of those games where... I really want to be good... But I'm not... And after some rounds loosing I'm frustrated and put it away for like months... But this video gave me the urge again to get my switch out and play it again. And leat try it. Bc even if it can be so frustrating it's so much fun!
Out of hope and desperate for answers, I booked a yacht to Japan err the club.
I used to play it as a rhythm game, but this doesn't work when you start maining certain other characters or when you aim for speed. With characters like shovel knight or treasure knight, the rhythm strat works well, but when it comes to more technical characters or if you're going for maximum speed, not so much. I havent ever played necrodancer but when I first picked up pocket dungeon a couple years ago I instantly gravitated towards the rhythm game strategy lol.
hi nick! I am indeed in that venn diagram of people who have played necrodancer and pocket dungeon, as a huge Rhythm Heaven fan im also playing this game to the beat, its really addicting
This video alone has convinced me to buy it and I havent played Shovel Knight since like 2016
I can relate to this so much, I play it like Necrodancer even though I don't need to. It just feels so good to make inputs on the beat.
I definitely played to the beat in pocket dungeon, it's very strange
I remember Everhood was a game that had enemy attacks sync up with music. But I would find myself moving to the beat even when I didn't have to dodge bullets because it was so fun
I’m so glad someone else saw.. or heard this in the game.
Sometimes I’ll just play the levels like a ND level
I had the opposite effect. I have been playing Shovel Knight so I played the game thinking of it as a Shovel Knight game. I ended up losing due to the things that were hardwired into the last game so I had to learn how to find a playstyle that made it feel like top-down Shovel Knight mixed with Puyo Puyo! Please upload a video where you take on Puzzle Knight. I want to see you take him on with that catchy, fast beat! Lol!
Cant wait for it to happen to more RPGs like Mario RPG, Undertale, Deltarune, Omori, etc
Kind of like Mother 3
@@Legoluigi26 Yeah, definitely. It's optional, but it supports the battle sequence and make it more fun
i do the same thing with tetris effect, it's not required to play to the beat but for some reason i always do.
You just reminded me how that first Tetris Effect teaser trailer had all the pieces being dropped to the beat - I remember thinking that was literally how the game was gonna work!
I can't help but do something, to play to the beat. Like I'll just start jumping/attacking/dash to the beat. I think it's a focus thing, but also a fidget/stim thing, I usually always tap or fidget to some sort of music in my head. So I can see myself 100% playing this to the beat automatically.
Played Cadence of Hyrule and got really good at the game, so playing Shovel Knight on the rhythm of the music came naturally to me. Since I have much more freedom, though, sometimes I accelerate to half beats when I need to kill something quickly, or move once every other beat when I need to slow down and assess the situation, but I still keep my moves within the rhythm.
Love Necrodancer, glad to know a lot of people loved it
Even when playing Shovel Kniggt, you're like playing Necrodancer. You know Necrodancer is being loved 😂
Oh thank God I'm not the only one who does this
I was also thinking of the exact same comparison! I think it's because the game does move to its own rhythm as well. If you stop moving and let the game just go it has a steady beat that it drops the enemies/blocks to, albeit slowly. I would definitely say it's a rhythm game with Necrodancer/Tetris vibes and I absolutely love it. Bought for the Shovel Knight aesthetic, stayed for the puzzle boppin'.
Love your vids
I've actually never played Necrodancer before. But when i first played this game, I've definitely played the game to the beat. When i first saw the trailer for the game, i knew i was gonna play the game this way. I feel like the reason why i played it the way I did was because the Music, and the gameplay. Me personally I've always been a fan of shovel knight. I loved the music, and seeing it remixed and also adding new bangers just made me want to play to the beat even more. The game play really does also add to the factor. Like you said: in shovel knight pocket dungeon, enemy move when you move. So if you were to constantly move at the same time (or moving to the beat), you will have a better time predicting what you want to do next or what was gonna happen. Shovel knight pocket dungeon is a really great game. I've Always loved shovel knight and Rougelite/Rougelike games, so seeing a game combining both of those things made it a instant favorite. Pocket dungeon is such a great game, To the art, to the music, to the mechanics, to even the characters: who play pretty different, it's like playing a different game (ok, maybe I'm overreacting a little bit). And to think it's only $20 bucks, AMAZING.
As long as it works, don't fix.
-Not Aristotle
Something similar happens to me but with Osu. I’m not at all good at the game but now my brain is really good at tracking the order objects come into frame.
interesting theory. thanks, nick.
Haven't tried it out yet but, looking at it, they ought to add in a rhythm mode.
I played this game recently and I did the exact same thing I love it
I did play necrodancer first and it definitely affected my muscle memory a bit. Such as with how the game prioritizes your movement vs enemy movement. (in Necrodancer you always move first, whereas in Pocket Dunegon, the enemies always move first, so if an enemy is one tile above you and you attempt to move under it, you instead attack the enemy.)
Also I try to play faster then the beat in PD, because it rewards you even more to do so.
I've played necromancer but have yet to play this so now I'm thinking I'm needing to give this game a go and see how things work out.
I’d say bpm and hi fi rush also fall in this category bc after playing bpm so much I keep trying to do inputs on the eighth notes in hfr and messing up
Just so great that you set the rhythm
Yessss ive seen other people struggling with the game when they start but I remember when I played the first times I felt that porting of skills from necrodancer and also doing it to the beat, which made me lose a bunch lol so I muted the music (also because other things)
I haven’t played necromancer but I still do this sometimes
Nick is good at making intresting videos because i feel like watching a different creator but then my brain is like "NO CONTINUE WATCHING"
I knew i wasnt the only one thinking this. I didnt need to but i kept moving with the beat.
this looks really fun
My brother was skipping in the background while I was watching this video and for some of the video his rhythm matched up perfectly with the gameplay on screen