What was interesting with Sakai`s flanking move was that he suggested it in a large meeting of the generals and Nobunaga ripped him to shreds saying it was a horrible idea. After the meeting ended there was a second meeting for only Nobunaga and Ieyasu. Nobunaga had Ieyasu call back Sakai and Nobunaga apologized to Sakai for the public humiliation and then explained he thought it was a great idea, just that if he said so at the large meeting he worried that the Takeda would find out about it (less than loyal retainers send info to the Takeda). So Sakai was given permission (and some Oda troops as well) to lead the flank attack
@@alexanderstrickland9036 I do not know the incident but either Nobunaga`s father or Nobunaga`s house elders must have taught him the idea of keeping campaign details as secret as possible. The night before Okehazama Nobunaga listened to the opinions of his vassals but made no comment on his plans (and supposedly a few thought it was game over). It should be noted that after Okehazama Nobunaga gave a bigger award to the samurai in charge of scouting the Imagawa than to the samurai that actually killed Yoshimoto (though he was of course compensated very well). It should be also noted that when Shingen dies Oda/Tokugawa alliance realized it quickly (exactly how we do not know) while Shingen`s allies moved aggressively (and in hindsight foolishily) thinking that Shingen was still alive.
Sakai deserves more attention. Most people know of Tadakatsu Honda, Hattori Hanzo and to a lesser extend Naomasa Ii but Ieyasu had many great retainers
I was literally just thinking, how did the Takeda not see that coming considering their extensive use of shinobi, and you answered my question. Thank you.
Sune'emon actually became Samurai after the fact. he was an Ashigaru by the time he made his trek to Oda and Tokugawa. For his bravery he and his family was awarded Samurai rank after his death
I've always seen Nagashino as Nobunaga's Gaugamela, the more I learn about it the more striking the analogues become. - An up-and-coming power against an established and reputable one - Defeating a thought-to-be unbeatable mobile strike force through clever, innovative tactics - An overconfident general leading his forces to defeat and fleeing, never to achieve the same prominence again - The victor eventually becoming a great unifier but dying before he could finish his dream Truly one of those battles that lie at the crossroads of history.
> An up-and-coming power against an established and reputable one Both Oda Nobunaga and Tokugawa Ieyasu were very much established and reputable daimyo at this point. Nobunaga literally controlled Kyoto and central Japan, and had ended the Ashikaga Shogunate. A better comparison would be the battle of Okehazama where Nobunaga destroyed the Imagawa army en route to Kyoto, under Imagawa Yoshimoto.
@@tiffles3890 I guess you could say the Takeda were an already established power prior to Katsuyori while Nobunaga was the one to make his clan important, and in such a short period as well.
It is proved that Shingen's title as the strongest general in Japan atm destroyed Katsuyori as Katsuyori is always compared to his late father and capped as "Not as good as Shingen". This led to Katsuyori's wanting to prove himself not to be a man that fears Nobunaga and forced his army to face Oda-Tokugawa at Nagashino despite most of Takeda's key retainers (Baba, Yamagata, Kosaka, Naito and other older generals) advice to fortify defense instead of charging out. (Fyi, I assume this right after reading most of Takeda's History and that one interesting novel named "Oda Nobunaga, Conqueror of Owari" writen by Yamaoka Sohachi. The novel itself is a good and worth to read as readers delve into Nobunaga's path from his earliest day [wed to Princess Nò] to his end at Honnòji).
Honestly can't blame the guy he was the son of the clan's most talented leader and one of the best generals in Japan in general. The amount of pressure he must have been on must have been insane.
@@MrSteveK1138 > jaws of victory There was no near certain victory for the Takeda in this situation. To begin with, his invasion of the Tokugawa territory doesn't seem to have been well thought out. He went castle hopping for a while in enemy territory, looking for an easy castle to besiege. If he was unwilling to be tied down in a lengthy siege, then he should've planned better before commencing the invasion, rather than fumbling around mid campaign for an actual objective to try and accomplish. On top of that, when Nobunaga's army finally arrived, the combined Oda and Tokugawa army outnumbered his army heavily and both men were competent generals. Frankly, after the mess he made, he should've listened to the advice of his senior retainers and retreated for the time being.
Takeda Katsuyori: "Our clan has a long history of always engaging in combat and bringing victory, not engaging the Oda now would be cowardly display." Meanwhile, Takeda Shingen was practically dancing with Uesugi Kenshin without pursuing any decisive battles in Shinano for a decade.
Reasons for Katsuyori's decision to fight. 1. He thought it was a final chance to destroyed both Oda and Tokugawa using his superior and invincible cavalry in a single battle. 2. There was a heavy rain for days, he thought the Oda guns and ammunition were spoiled. 3. He failed to took any gain from a long march from his home. To returned home empty handed would be shameful dispray for him as a Takeda leader.
Facing a numerically superior army that established a strong defensive position meant certain defeat. Katsuyori sent scouts I believe but they were killed so he wasn't sure what was awaiting him. His father would of definitely retreated due to uncertainty. But it wasn't necessary to return to their homeland. They just needed to gather more information and formulate another strategy while still on campaign. And if they really had to return to their homeland, it wouldn't of been a disgrace. Their original plan was to work with a turncoat to conquer Okazaki. Once that failed, it would of been logical to return home and formulate another strategy. It's disgraceful to lose badly in battle. Everything needs to be planned out and ego kept in check.
Nagashino isn’t exactly flat and thus not the very ideal terrain for the takeda cavalry as it was bumpy and has potholes but is ok for shooting teppo, also to add that there was a rain the day before and two days back then which made the overall terrain muddy making it more difficult to utilize the cavalry and with the wooden palisades deployed by the oda-tokugawa to shield their teppo ashigarus and their normal yari ashigaru making it sewhat similar to a spear wall of the european soldiers
Being a son of a very succesfull family I feel the pressure but one must be wise and grow wise at a young age, listen to your elders and filter what comes to be the most suitable and practical decsion.
“Katsuyori, you idiot! All of my years of hard work and sacrifices have fallen straight to the crapper because of your stupid decision to pick a fight with that murdering psychopath Nobunaga and his sidekick, Ieyasu!” -Takeda Shingen It could have been worse if Shingen charged straight to the Oda firing squad but Shingen would simply say “Nope, not gonna do it”
Being outnumbered 2 to 1 and taking on offensive, Takeda army still fought so ferociously and killed over fourth of Oda forces (though they themselves were completely shattered in the process), shows the quality of Takeda retainers and army.
Great episode mate loved it. Nagashino is like one of the big moments during Sengoku Jidai that changed everything in Japanese history. it took Europe 400 years to find a way to effectively stop mass cavalry changes the Oda did it in 30 years.
You missed my point yes the Europes found a way to stop it earlier the Japanese did it faster. Takada pioneering mass use of cavalry and the Oda pioneering firearms.
@@X50lions Takeda actually didn't have much war-horses. Horses from Kai and Shinano were weak and because of that and their poor trade routes (war-horses were mostly Korean/Chinese imported) the Takeda army didn't have many horses. The famous red-brigade used war-horses to intimidate their enemies - but aside from that, horses were mostly used to get around battlefield quickly in sengoku Japan, where the troops would then dismount and fight on foot. The Takeda cavalry was mostly exaggerated in later literatures to give them a distinct characteristic.
Damn it Katsuyori, you led my favorite clan to ruin :c Good episode tho, looking forward to the next because I've never actually looked into conflicts between the Uesugi and Oda much; keep up the good work!
@@TheShogunate Really curious how it leads to the Uesugi remaining as a prominent and powerful clan after the period of war calms down a bit instead of being crushed like a lot of Oda's enemies; I know he wasn't very lenient with the Takeda once he moved into Kai. Guess I'll find out when you get there, lol
Interestingly, Ieyasu even commented that REFUSING battle and staying where they were (similar to the Takeda retainers' suggestions) would've actually LED to a Takeda victory, as he and Nobunaga would've been compelled to withdraw due to eventual lack of supplies. There is some debate as to how many of the Oda-Tokugawa men were gunners. While the most famous number is 3,000, it could very well have been 1,000 with some using Chinese handguns instead of Portuguese Matchlocks. There is also some debate as to whether or not said gunners were able to do the counter-march like you have suggested in the video. Nevertheless, the result was that the initial gunfire broke the momentum of the Takeda Cavalry, and what ensued was several hours of melee.
love the use of visuals from Nobunaga's Ambition and Shogun 2. every so often i gotta watch this scene acted out by NHK... wish there was a class on the Sengoku Jidai back in college, had to make due with History of the Samurai and had notable battles mentioned then moved on. was still a good class though.
Oh Katsuyori.....so much promise when you took takatenjin. Its a shame really, the Takeda had a retainer base that could rival Oda's. If i remember correctly legend has it that Nobufasa Baba suggested what Tokugawa himself said would have allowed them to force a retreat but Katsuyori ignored the advice(Think i read that on either samurai archives or in japonius tyrannus)
I found your channel looking up the Battle of Kawanakajima. I have sinced subscribed and pray for more epic content about the bloodiest period of Japanese history. By chance could you make mention of the One-Eyed Dragon, the Uesugi Otate Ran, and The Sanada rise to Prominence? Lol
Fastastic episode, it is best video you can find about Nagashino battle, so detailed and so informative. It will be hard for you to top this episode :D
It would probably be a phyrric victory that would still make the Takeda takeover costly enough that if say, Russia or China wanted to could takeover Japan and colonize it.
There is still a lot of debate on the battle, most notably on how Teppotai is arranged and their strength, and whether the Takeda mounted troop is really cavalry, I have seen interpretation on this battle noting that the Takeda army is besieging the Oda-Tokugawa forces, they likely approach the palisade dismounted and storm it with improvised shields.
Man I do hate offensives...Chances of the battle going sideways is really high. One good cavalry charge and my troops are already high tailing back to their mamas. I learned to appreciate the Yari Ashigarus because of enemy cavalries.
This has got to be one of the dumbest decisions I have seen so far in this entire series. Even reading the other comments that try to further explain Katsuyori's motivations and thinking, I cannot see this as defensible from any angle. His father had often disengaged or retreated when he didn't see his forces as being in a favorable position, throughout his time in command, and his long success can be partly attributed to that lack of recklessness, never wasting his forces and waiting to commit to fighting when he had a good position and plan. And the fact is that all of the senior leaders who had fought with his father through all of that were giving him the same advice that had seen his father through so many years of not ever being routed or having a terrible disaster in the field (aside from the 4th battle which is of course a special circumstance and still an overall victory for him strategically despite the great losses). To not heed their advice, and then to double down on that by ignoring the idea of taking the castle, all based on esoteric ideas of honor and "the invincible cavalry" or even simply "we can't leave without achieving anything" etc... and absolutely zero actual reason to be optimistic, to to the point the senior leaders all knew they were going to die and openly had a final tea ceremony together or whatever, zero real plan, and refusing to take the one plan offered him... I'm sorry I simply cannot see any redeeming way to view Katsuyori here. That they even intercepted the messenger and learned about it in time to get the hell out (or set up a trap... the Oda didn't know the messenger was intercepted... jesus anything lol) should have been seen as amazing fortune, fortune which should be taken full advantage of one way or another... not just "they come to us? durr hurr, excellent, to battle!" while your senior commanders are having a literal Last Meal together.
I feel terrible sad for katsuyori, the reason why he doesnt retreat at first because he still shadowed by the greatness of his father, event his own general doeant trust him. So he need to achive a name
But man were his generals loyal. Instead of revolting or defecting, they drank together one last time and accepted their deaths. I took that as crazy loyal.
There was no near certain victory for the Takeda in this situation. To begin with, his invasion of the Tokugawa territory doesn't seem to have been well thought out. He went castle hopping for a while in enemy territory, looking for an easy castle to besiege. If he was unwilling to be tied down in a lengthy siege, then he should've planned better before commencing the invasion, rather than fumbling around mid campaign for an actual objective to try and accomplish. On top of that, when Nobunaga's army finally arrived, the combined Oda and Tokugawa army outnumbered his army heavily and both men were competent generals. The chances of a victory that wasn't pyrrhic were very low. Katsuyori's senior retainers understood this. After the mess he made, Katsuyori should've listened to their advice.
This battle always makes me emotional, having played Samurai Warriors Spirit of Sanada. Hearing everyone being cut down by Oda forces, and Masayuki having to come to terms with what happens during this battle the rest of his life.
What I find most shameful is that it wasn’t the hotheaded young leaders who convinced Katsuyori into attacking that formed the rearguard upon the retreat. It was the veterans who had advised against this battle. It should have been them dying to protect their lords rear. Katsuyori wasn’t a bad Daimyo, just poorly advised by those he related to most.
The great Takeda have fallen... now to dig up their roots.
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This setup before this battle is sad as Katsuyori Takeda was being ignorant to heed the defensive advice. And it shows it nicely in the Samurai Warriors Spirit of Sanada game.
A great episode, I was wondering when you are done with the main Sengoku jidai, will you make a video of Portuguese-Japanese relation during the Nanban trade and Jesuit mission? Also have you heard about the Battle of Fukuda bay in 1565? It was a battle (obviously) between Portuguese traders and Samurai under a daimyo I forgot his name.
@@TheShogunate It's one those moments in Japanese history, if not World history that are not well known, along with the of history of Japanese Christians. Well anyway you have great content here, I can't wait for more to see. You just earn a Subscriber.
So what have we learned? Katsuyori is a dumbass where he let his personal ego and pride get in the way despite knowing the deck was stacked against him in the battle of Nagashino. The chance to fight another day is the most valuable tool a commander can do so retreating is not shameful at all as we have seen numerous times.
Europe was nothing compared to the intense violence happening in Japan. I had a dream I ended up in Japan in the late 1500's, and was decapitated just so a samurai could test out his new sword. They came at me so quick, I did not know what hit me.
The nagashino defender is actually one of takeda retainer okudaira nobumasa he was first ieyasu retainer but shingen swayed nobumasa to become one of the takeda retainer but when katsuyori ruled the clan he decided to betray takeda clan and join back to ieyasu
Nice channel,a lot of good insight and really good pictures for references. Side note:transitions words are used a lot and get repeatitive. Any chance we can do a bit better with this? It's extremly noticable when someone listen a couples episodes back to back. Still what a nice effort for such a great timeline :D
Urghh..numbers on this really not a changer game...38000 is big but most of them is poor quality army maybe just a poor peasant who had malnutrition and lack of experience while 15k takeda army many of them are high quality army, fighting in various war from shinano to kawanakajima,not forget a spectacular cavalry they had..so it's not really weird takeda have confidence despite being outnumbered
@@muhdabdullah3518yea battles have been won with worse odds. Still, when Shingen himself started the campaign he left with 30,000 men, I can’t see why Katsuyori wouldn’t do the same. Unless his influence was waning.
Oh, yes, both usually oversimplified Battles, with the definitely important role of skirmishers overshadowing a long and truly decisive mele fight as well as the impact of the terrain. Definitely the Azincourt of Japan.
actually he made at least few of them. First the terrain wasn't good for cavarly charge like at Mikatagahara, second the enemy was prepared, third the enemy had advantage in numbers , then he did not take the castle which was torn in his back etc. Its harder to tell what he did well there than what he screwed.
Katsuyori had actually proven himself a much more far-sighted man than his father in diplomacy. Military-wise, he was complimented by both Tokugawa Ieyasu and Oda Nobunaga as one of the most competent commanders. The battle of Nagashino was just a mistake where his over-confidence had led him to a bad situation.
to be fair Katsuyori was screwed no matter what, he was up against a genius general with a much larger army that used unconventional weaponry and strategy and his generals that said "just take over the castle and defend from there" are idiots. had he done that he and the takeda army would have gotten complete slaughtered. they would take over a castle in enemy territory with no supplies and a massive army besieging them, with them being inside the castle they wouldn't even be able to use their famed cavalry. the best option would have been to retreat and come back next year and start eating up tokugawa territory piecemeal instead of trying to take it all at once.
Poor research: rifles were only a part of the strategy at Nagashino and even in the "largest concentration of firearms Japan has ever seen" were still insufficient on their own, the big player were the fortifications, terrain and spearmen that forced the by now was only a shadow of the previous Takeda cavalry into kill zones, even with fortifications the small amount of riflemen would have been easily overrun by even the minor force of cavalry that the takeda were reduced to at this point and they definitely didn't "cut the cavalry charge into pieces" , instead what they did was cause the shock as slowing down of it causing them to lose the impact force that Takeda cavalry tactics relied on making them even easier to handle for the spearmen.
What was interesting with Sakai`s flanking move was that he suggested it in a large meeting of the generals and Nobunaga ripped him to shreds saying it was a horrible idea. After the meeting ended there was a second meeting for only Nobunaga and Ieyasu. Nobunaga had Ieyasu call back Sakai and Nobunaga apologized to Sakai for the public humiliation and then explained he thought it was a great idea, just that if he said so at the large meeting he worried that the Takeda would find out about it (less than loyal retainers send info to the Takeda). So Sakai was given permission (and some Oda troops as well) to lead the flank attack
Thank you for that. That was insteresting
Yeah that is clever
@@alexanderstrickland9036 I do not know the incident but either Nobunaga`s father or Nobunaga`s house elders must have taught him the idea of keeping campaign details as secret as possible. The night before Okehazama Nobunaga listened to the opinions of his vassals but made no comment on his plans (and supposedly a few thought it was game over). It should be noted that after Okehazama Nobunaga gave a bigger award to the samurai in charge of scouting the Imagawa than to the samurai that actually killed Yoshimoto (though he was of course compensated very well). It should be also noted that when Shingen dies Oda/Tokugawa alliance realized it quickly (exactly how we do not know) while Shingen`s allies moved aggressively (and in hindsight foolishily) thinking that Shingen was still alive.
Sakai deserves more attention.
Most people know of Tadakatsu Honda, Hattori Hanzo and to a lesser extend Naomasa Ii but Ieyasu had many great retainers
I was literally just thinking, how did the Takeda not see that coming considering their extensive use of shinobi, and you answered my question. Thank you.
Sune'emon actually became Samurai after the fact. he was an Ashigaru by the time he made his trek to Oda and Tokugawa. For his bravery he and his family was awarded Samurai rank after his death
"The Battle of Nagashino"
Or, alternatively:
*Oda Nobunaga: **_"So anyway, I started blasting."_*
The Great Nagashino Turkey-shoot
I've always seen Nagashino as Nobunaga's Gaugamela, the more I learn about it the more striking the analogues become.
- An up-and-coming power against an established and reputable one
- Defeating a thought-to-be unbeatable mobile strike force through clever, innovative tactics
- An overconfident general leading his forces to defeat and fleeing, never to achieve the same prominence again
- The victor eventually becoming a great unifier but dying before he could finish his dream
Truly one of those battles that lie at the crossroads of history.
> An up-and-coming power against an established and reputable one
Both Oda Nobunaga and Tokugawa Ieyasu were very much established and reputable daimyo at this point. Nobunaga literally controlled Kyoto and central Japan, and had ended the Ashikaga Shogunate.
A better comparison would be the battle of Okehazama where Nobunaga destroyed the Imagawa army en route to Kyoto, under Imagawa Yoshimoto.
The similiarities are so striking that the takeda won by using superoir cavlry tactics and despite being heavily outnumbered...oh wait.
@@tiffles3890 I guess you could say the Takeda were an already established power prior to Katsuyori while Nobunaga was the one to make his clan important, and in such a short period as well.
Except Nobunaga had the larger numbers roughly twice over.
Class 101 on how to destroy your hero father's hard work in 1 day...
Takeda the Lesser, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
It is proved that Shingen's title as the strongest general in Japan atm destroyed Katsuyori as Katsuyori is always compared to his late father and capped as "Not as good as Shingen". This led to Katsuyori's wanting to prove himself not to be a man that fears Nobunaga and forced his army to face Oda-Tokugawa at Nagashino despite most of Takeda's key retainers (Baba, Yamagata, Kosaka, Naito and other older generals) advice to fortify defense instead of charging out.
(Fyi, I assume this right after reading most of Takeda's History and that one interesting novel named "Oda Nobunaga, Conqueror of Owari" writen by Yamaoka Sohachi. The novel itself is a good and worth to read as readers delve into Nobunaga's path from his earliest day [wed to Princess Nò] to his end at Honnòji).
Katsuyori is a very dumb warlord he send in all the men and and almost all of them died 🤣
Honestly can't blame the guy he was the son of the clan's most talented leader and one of the best generals in Japan in general. The amount of pressure he must have been on must have been insane.
@@MrSteveK1138
> jaws of victory
There was no near certain victory for the Takeda in this situation.
To begin with, his invasion of the Tokugawa territory doesn't seem to have been well thought out.
He went castle hopping for a while in enemy territory, looking for an easy castle to besiege.
If he was unwilling to be tied down in a lengthy siege, then he should've planned better before commencing the invasion, rather than fumbling around mid campaign for an actual objective to try and accomplish.
On top of that, when Nobunaga's army finally arrived, the combined Oda and Tokugawa army outnumbered his army heavily and both men were competent generals.
Frankly, after the mess he made, he should've listened to the advice of his senior retainers and retreated for the time being.
Takeda Katsuyori: "Our clan has a long history of always engaging in combat and bringing victory, not engaging the Oda now would be cowardly display."
Meanwhile, Takeda Shingen was practically dancing with Uesugi Kenshin without pursuing any decisive battles in Shinano for a decade.
I'm surprised none of his commanders brought this up- or how Tokugawa survived what was then certain defeat at Mikatagahara
@@MarvinT0606 committing an entire army to win a battle is a very dangerous strategy you either win or lose badly entirely
Reasons for Katsuyori's decision to fight.
1. He thought it was a final chance to destroyed both Oda and Tokugawa using his superior and invincible cavalry in a single battle.
2. There was a heavy rain for days, he thought the Oda guns and ammunition were spoiled.
3. He failed to took any gain from a long march from his home. To returned home empty handed would be shameful dispray for him as a Takeda leader.
i believe he was under a lot of pressure being the son and heir of the legendary shingen
Plus Katsuyori was only known a good warrior but compared to Strategy wasn't his strong suit I believe. That's why they got destroyed easy
Facing a numerically superior army that established a strong defensive position meant certain defeat.
Katsuyori sent scouts I believe but they were killed so he wasn't sure what was awaiting him. His father would of definitely retreated due to uncertainty.
But it wasn't necessary to return to their homeland.
They just needed to gather more information and formulate another strategy while still on campaign.
And if they really had to return to their homeland, it wouldn't of been a disgrace. Their original plan was to work with a turncoat to conquer Okazaki. Once that failed, it would of been logical to return home and formulate another strategy. It's disgraceful to lose badly in battle. Everything needs to be planned out and ego kept in check.
Nagashino isn’t exactly flat and thus not the very ideal terrain for the takeda cavalry as it was bumpy and has potholes but is ok for shooting teppo, also to add that there was a rain the day before and two days back then which made the overall terrain muddy making it more difficult to utilize the cavalry and with the wooden palisades deployed by the oda-tokugawa to shield their teppo ashigarus and their normal yari ashigaru making it sewhat similar to a spear wall of the european soldiers
Being a son of a very succesfull family I feel the pressure but one must be wise and grow wise at a young age, listen to your elders and filter what comes to be the most suitable and practical decsion.
Now, officially, I say yours is one of the best channels in youtube.
" Katsuyori! Oh, Takeda Katsuyori! Give Me Back My Cavalry!"
-Takeda Shingen from beyond the grave.
Kastuyori certainly did send Shingen his calvary...
“Katsuyori, you idiot! All of my years of hard work and sacrifices have fallen straight to the crapper because of your stupid decision to pick a fight with that murdering psychopath Nobunaga and his sidekick, Ieyasu!”
-Takeda Shingen
It could have been worse if Shingen charged straight to the Oda firing squad but Shingen would simply say “Nope, not gonna do it”
@@cheesemuffin8129 I bet Takeda Shingen is eager to go back from The Great Beyond just to beat up Takeda Katsuyori with his fan!
@@michaelbandada9887
Shingen wouldn’t even bother. He’d just leave the area and preserve his forces for later.
Being outnumbered 2 to 1 and taking on offensive, Takeda army still fought so ferociously and killed over fourth of Oda forces (though they themselves were completely shattered in the process), shows the quality of Takeda retainers and army.
Great episode mate loved it. Nagashino is like one of the big moments during Sengoku Jidai that changed everything in Japanese history. it took Europe 400 years to find a way to effectively stop mass cavalry changes the Oda did it in 30 years.
Not really, pike and shot was excellent.
You missed my point yes the Europes found a way to stop it earlier the Japanese did it faster. Takada pioneering mass use of cavalry and the Oda pioneering firearms.
@@X50lions Takeda actually didn't have much war-horses. Horses from Kai and Shinano were weak and because of that and their poor trade routes (war-horses were mostly Korean/Chinese imported) the Takeda army didn't have many horses. The famous red-brigade used war-horses to intimidate their enemies - but aside from that, horses were mostly used to get around battlefield quickly in sengoku Japan, where the troops would then dismount and fight on foot. The Takeda cavalry was mostly exaggerated in later literatures to give them a distinct characteristic.
@@ravenstrategist1325 not against Winged Hussars
@@khal7702 Don't you dare include posthumans in this! ;)
Damn it Katsuyori, you led my favorite clan to ruin :c
Good episode tho, looking forward to the next because I've never actually looked into conflicts between the Uesugi and Oda much; keep up the good work!
Yeah, it's interesting how Tedorigawa gets so overshadowed
@@TheShogunate Really curious how it leads to the Uesugi remaining as a prominent and powerful clan after the period of war calms down a bit instead of being crushed like a lot of Oda's enemies; I know he wasn't very lenient with the Takeda once he moved into Kai. Guess I'll find out when you get there, lol
his name is synonym to foul to me he is an idiot
damn my ancestor and his 3 sons from the okubo line die because of that idiot
God I love this series. So glad I found it. Blasts me back 20 years to OG Shogun: Total War haha
Interestingly, Ieyasu even commented that REFUSING battle and staying where they were (similar to the Takeda retainers' suggestions) would've actually LED to a Takeda victory, as he and Nobunaga would've been compelled to withdraw due to eventual lack of supplies.
There is some debate as to how many of the Oda-Tokugawa men were gunners. While the most famous number is 3,000, it could very well have been 1,000 with some using Chinese handguns instead of Portuguese Matchlocks. There is also some debate as to whether or not said gunners were able to do the counter-march like you have suggested in the video. Nevertheless, the result was that the initial gunfire broke the momentum of the Takeda Cavalry, and what ensued was several hours of melee.
It took 23 episodes for me to wait masayuki’s name to be mentioned, personal fav characters in the sengoku jida ❤️
Kenshin Uesugi, The only one who wins a battle against Nobunaga, The god of War indeed
Shingen never encountered Nobunaga and if he did , he sure as hell wouldn't fight him and Tokugawa alone
love the use of visuals from Nobunaga's Ambition and Shogun 2.
every so often i gotta watch this scene acted out by NHK...
wish there was a class on the Sengoku Jidai back in college, had to make due with History of the Samurai and had notable battles mentioned then moved on. was still a good class though.
Sad battle and the movie is sad too. Kagemusha, best movie.
Oh Katsuyori.....so much promise when you took takatenjin. Its a shame really, the Takeda had a retainer base that could rival Oda's. If i remember correctly legend has it that Nobufasa Baba suggested what Tokugawa himself said would have allowed them to force a retreat but Katsuyori ignored the advice(Think i read that on either samurai archives or in japonius tyrannus)
I found your channel looking up the Battle of Kawanakajima. I have sinced subscribed and pray for more epic content about the bloodiest period of Japanese history. By chance could you make mention of the One-Eyed Dragon, the Uesugi Otate Ran, and The Sanada rise to Prominence? Lol
Trust me, all of that is on the way! I'm following the events of the sengoku Jidai so plenty of that is still yet to come!
I'm late to the party but this is the best channel on TH-cam, you are a good daimyo.
Fastastic episode, it is best video you can find about Nagashino battle, so detailed and so informative. It will be hard for you to top this episode :D
Thank you!
It really makes you wonder how Japanese history would play out if the Takeda didn't mess up.
I'm guessing a pyrrhic victory leaving Japan open to be colonized by China.
It would probably be a phyrric victory that would still make the Takeda takeover costly enough that if say, Russia or China wanted to could takeover Japan and colonize it.
-We have elite Samurai cavalry
-We have peasants with guns
Kinda like Crecy or Agincourt in all honesty.
No, they had a few thousand gun ashigaru, numerous yari ashigaru and samurai of different flavors, and yet the Takeda still attacked them
Can't wait for my favorite character, Yukimura Sanada, son of Masayuki Sanada to be mentioned
There is still a lot of debate on the battle, most notably on how Teppotai is arranged and their strength, and whether the Takeda mounted troop is really cavalry, I have seen interpretation on this battle noting that the Takeda army is besieging the Oda-Tokugawa forces, they likely approach the palisade dismounted and storm it with improvised shields.
Shogun 2 taught me to avoid offensive and better choose defense unless the odd favor on you even equal force can results in disastrous defeat
Man I do hate offensives...Chances of the battle going sideways is really high. One good cavalry charge and my troops are already high tailing back to their mamas.
I learned to appreciate the Yari Ashigarus because of enemy cavalries.
8:34
Owen: "Like how Shingen "won" against his nemesis, Kenshin?"
This has got to be one of the dumbest decisions I have seen so far in this entire series. Even reading the other comments that try to further explain Katsuyori's motivations and thinking, I cannot see this as defensible from any angle. His father had often disengaged or retreated when he didn't see his forces as being in a favorable position, throughout his time in command, and his long success can be partly attributed to that lack of recklessness, never wasting his forces and waiting to commit to fighting when he had a good position and plan. And the fact is that all of the senior leaders who had fought with his father through all of that were giving him the same advice that had seen his father through so many years of not ever being routed or having a terrible disaster in the field (aside from the 4th battle which is of course a special circumstance and still an overall victory for him strategically despite the great losses). To not heed their advice, and then to double down on that by ignoring the idea of taking the castle, all based on esoteric ideas of honor and "the invincible cavalry" or even simply "we can't leave without achieving anything" etc... and absolutely zero actual reason to be optimistic, to to the point the senior leaders all knew they were going to die and openly had a final tea ceremony together or whatever, zero real plan, and refusing to take the one plan offered him... I'm sorry I simply cannot see any redeeming way to view Katsuyori here. That they even intercepted the messenger and learned about it in time to get the hell out (or set up a trap... the Oda didn't know the messenger was intercepted... jesus anything lol) should have been seen as amazing fortune, fortune which should be taken full advantage of one way or another... not just "they come to us? durr hurr, excellent, to battle!" while your senior commanders are having a literal Last Meal together.
Katsuyori would at least beat Benjamin Church!
Great video! Love this part of history. Keep up the good work
I feel terrible sad for katsuyori, the reason why he doesnt retreat at first because he still shadowed by the greatness of his father, event his own general doeant trust him. So he need to achive a name
But man were his generals loyal. Instead of revolting or defecting, they drank together one last time and accepted their deaths. I took that as crazy loyal.
There was no near certain victory for the Takeda in this situation.
To begin with, his invasion of the Tokugawa territory doesn't seem to have been well thought out.
He went castle hopping for a while in enemy territory, looking for an easy castle to besiege.
If he was unwilling to be tied down in a lengthy siege, then he should've planned better before commencing the invasion, rather than fumbling around mid campaign for an actual objective to try and accomplish.
On top of that, when Nobunaga's army finally arrived, the combined Oda and Tokugawa army outnumbered his army heavily and both men were competent generals. The chances of a victory that wasn't pyrrhic were very low.
Katsuyori's senior retainers understood this. After the mess he made, Katsuyori should've listened to their advice.
This battle always makes me emotional, having played Samurai Warriors Spirit of Sanada. Hearing everyone being cut down by Oda forces, and Masayuki having to come to terms with what happens during this battle the rest of his life.
Imagine being a takeda samurai riding your warhorse into that volley and volley of matchlock fire.
Exquisite work my dude!
Thanks Brother!
Great episode !
We got amazon video at home, guess who'd rather binge this channel?
What I find most shameful is that it wasn’t the hotheaded young leaders who convinced Katsuyori into attacking that formed the rearguard upon the retreat. It was the veterans who had advised against this battle. It should have been them dying to protect their lords rear.
Katsuyori wasn’t a bad Daimyo, just poorly advised by those he related to most.
Was waiting for this thanks . Let me guess the next episode honoji incident? Or Hideyoshi campaign against the Mōri clan ?
The battle of Tedorigawa is next!
@@TheShogunate Kenshin’s last moment of glory, flipping a methaporical middle finger towards the Oda as they were drowned to oblivion
The great Takeda have fallen... now to dig up their roots.
This setup before this battle is sad as Katsuyori Takeda was being ignorant to heed the defensive advice. And it shows it nicely in the Samurai Warriors Spirit of Sanada game.
That is a great game
About 16000 people died that day. Just imagine how horrible that must have been
Yes! I've been waiting for this!
Neat, just found this. Years ago, studied
awesome as always!
A great episode, I was wondering when you are done with the main Sengoku jidai, will you make a video of Portuguese-Japanese relation during the Nanban trade and Jesuit mission?
Also have you heard about the Battle of Fukuda bay in 1565?
It was a battle (obviously) between Portuguese traders and Samurai under a daimyo I forgot his name.
I can always return to make a video about Nanban relations! And yes I have heard about Fukuda bay, although I don't know too much about it.
@@TheShogunate It's one those moments in Japanese history, if not World history that are not well known, along with the of history of Japanese Christians. Well anyway you have great content here, I can't wait for more to see. You just earn a Subscriber.
So what have we learned? Katsuyori is a dumbass where he let his personal ego and pride get in the way despite knowing the deck was stacked against him in the battle of Nagashino.
The chance to fight another day is the most valuable tool a commander can do so retreating is not shameful at all as we have seen numerous times.
Europe was nothing compared to the intense violence happening in Japan. I had a dream I ended up in Japan in the late 1500's, and was decapitated just so a samurai could test out his new sword. They came at me so quick, I did not know what hit me.
The nagashino defender is actually one of takeda retainer okudaira nobumasa he was first ieyasu retainer but shingen swayed nobumasa to become one of the takeda retainer but when katsuyori ruled the clan he decided to betray takeda clan and join back to ieyasu
Where almost at the endgame for the oda clan...
This battle is like the Alamo meets Gettysburg.
ahh kagemusha, one of my favourite films
Who would win:
The most feared Calvary in Samurai history or a couple shooty bois?
I had to pause this due to being so angry at the pure waste of life and legacy.
Not any worse than Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg.
Geez! How many nations, Eastern or Western, have been doomed by nepotism!
Nice channel,a lot of good insight and really good pictures for references. Side note:transitions words are used a lot and get repeatitive. Any chance we can do a bit better with this? It's extremly noticable when someone listen a couples episodes back to back. Still what a nice effort for such a great timeline :D
I'll do what I can.
This shit would never have happened with the Tiger of Kai still around.
Shingen is one of my favorite of the many sengoku daimyo 2 bad it ended like this
15,000 vs 38,000 … he didn’t even wanna call for more troops ? Damn
Urghh..numbers on this really not a changer game...38000 is big but most of them is poor quality army maybe just a poor peasant who had malnutrition and lack of experience while 15k takeda army many of them are high quality army, fighting in various war from shinano to kawanakajima,not forget a spectacular cavalry they had..so it's not really weird takeda have confidence despite being outnumbered
@@muhdabdullah3518yea battles have been won with worse odds. Still, when Shingen himself started the campaign he left with 30,000 men, I can’t see why Katsuyori wouldn’t do the same. Unless his influence was waning.
You had one job, Katsuyori.
Well, morale of story if your inexperienced listen to the more experienced generals
Ah, the battle of Agincourt of the east.
Oh, yes, both usually oversimplified Battles, with the definitely important role of skirmishers overshadowing a long and truly decisive mele fight as well as the impact of the terrain.
Definitely the Azincourt of Japan.
Such a stupid command by katsuyori , he can't be shingen's son 😐
I mean he was inbred lol
Takeda Katsuyori aka "The Fool of Kai"
If you have time to review a PC game called Throne of Darkness, which is a Diablo-esque action RPG with Sengoku Jidai characters, that'd be great.
I'll check it out!
It's a very old game, there are many better games to review that are less fantastical
Katsuyori made one mistake and it cost him everything
actually he made at least few of them.
First the terrain wasn't good for cavarly charge like at Mikatagahara, second the enemy was prepared, third the enemy had advantage in numbers , then he did not take the castle which was torn in his back etc.
Its harder to tell what he did well there than what he screwed.
Is Katsuyori a fool?
He certainly was here, otherwise he had been pretty competent for the most part.
@@TheShogunate Maybe he was overly eager to prove himself.
This sounds like an Andre meme where he's Oda Nobunaga shooting Katsuyori, and states this
Katsuyori had actually proven himself a much more far-sighted man than his father in diplomacy. Military-wise, he was complimented by both Tokugawa Ieyasu and Oda Nobunaga as one of the most competent commanders. The battle of Nagashino was just a mistake where his over-confidence had led him to a bad situation.
@@rayhu5559 Thanks.
I love your videos!! But it's pronounced SAE PU KU
Japanazzi!
to be fair Katsuyori was screwed no matter what, he was up against a genius general with a much larger army that used unconventional weaponry and strategy and his generals that said "just take over the castle and defend from there" are idiots. had he done that he and the takeda army would have gotten complete slaughtered. they would take over a castle in enemy territory with no supplies and a massive army besieging them, with them being inside the castle they wouldn't even be able to use their famed cavalry.
the best option would have been to retreat and come back next year and start eating up tokugawa territory piecemeal instead of trying to take it all at once.
Nobunaga and Tokugawa wasn't exactly geniuses but they were experienced generals and Oda definitely had a larger army. It was a bad idea.
7:51 "Oda and Takeda armies..." Surely You must've meant Oda and Tokugawa, right?
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SHAMEFUL DISPLAY!
Poor research: rifles were only a part of the strategy at Nagashino and even in the "largest concentration of firearms Japan has ever seen" were still insufficient on their own, the big player were the fortifications, terrain and spearmen that forced the by now was only a shadow of the previous Takeda cavalry into kill zones, even with fortifications the small amount of riflemen would have been easily overrun by even the minor force of cavalry that the takeda were reduced to at this point and they definitely didn't "cut the cavalry charge into pieces" , instead what they did was cause the shock as slowing down of it causing them to lose the impact force that Takeda cavalry tactics relied on making them even easier to handle for the spearmen.
If Shingen was alive in The battle of nagashino....
Αt last
Eh...Katsuyori's still a smarter general than John C. Pemberton.
Ah , Battle of Nagashino, the "Agincourt of the East".
Not really cause the english where the smaller force of the two so not completly correct
Takeda Shingen Was Killed By:
Tokugawa Iyaso...
Iyaso Used Ninja
うーん……
正直、この動画で語られている英語の内容は、ほとんど解りません。(笑)
でも、一番気になるのは、各武将の顔を「キレイめ」に(笑)描いていらっしゃる画家さんです。
はっきり言うと、実写ぽく描きたいと思ってらっしゃるようですが、鎧や兜の細部の「拵え」が、まるでなっていない事です。
以前から、この作家さんには不満を覚えております。
例えば、当世具足において、袖や錣の端の縅糸は、上級武士は3本である事が通常です。
また、胴の胸板の上に、本来、胸板の下にあるべき籠手の繋ぎが露出していたり………
等々……
上げればキリがありません。
このような画像を、日本国内も海外の方々も「本当の日本の甲冑」と思ってほしくないです。
本当に、日本の歴史に興味があるのであれば、江戸時代じゃないので(江戸時代は、本物の当時の甲冑を観たり、当時の文献に触れる事がなかった作家さんが多かったので。)ほんの少しだけでも文献等や博物館を調べれば解る事です。
正直、「しっかり勉強して下さい」と言いたいです。
The artwork of the samurai is from Nobunaga's Ambition, Sphere of influence. A Japanese strategy game created by Japanese game company Koei/Techmo.