Dyson V11 Outsize Battery Secrets - Dissection!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- We dissect the newest Dyson battery... the swappable battery pack from the V11 Outsize! Is this something special and proprietary? Or is this a standard issue battery pack? Find out!
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This man knows what he is talking about. So many clowns on TH-cam who say the battery lasts 15 years when we all know that these are lithium ion batteries that may last 3 or 4 years, but with less holding capacity of charge. I’m glad you have shown that Dyson have again over hyped their product with the claim of the Nickel Cobolt or whatever they claim lol.
They are good batteries, but they aren't bending the laws of physics. Same chemistry and likely same cell failure rate as any other company using Murata/Sony cells. Thanks for the comment!
A good, conservatively programmed BMS together with high-quality cells can give you many hundreds of charging cycles. Two full cycles per week would easily allow for ten years of serviceable life. However, most manufacturers trade a couple of minutes of longer run time for significantly shorter battery life.
15 years is no exaggeration. Considering the larger cell and 7 cells in the pack, the battery pack is pretty much overkill for most homes. This is also the reason why Tesla also quotes 10-15 years of lifetime to their battery packs.
@@zodiacfml I have to disagree with you on the typical user's battery lasting 15 years. Larger cells don't make them immune from damage from heat or from poor charging practices. Should owners be more conscious of how to treat the battery? Sure. But that is not the real world.
@@HouseOfVacuums Tesla Powerwall 2 and Tesla car battery has a warranty of 10/8 years.
Nice video, thanks for this
I reveived a body+working motor of a v11 for free. Im an electronic engineer, so i wanted to build my 7 cell pack instead of simply spending 170 euro.
But i don t know what type of communication is happening on the small 2 wire bus going from the bat to the cleaner. Did you perhaps monitored it?
I forgot to mention, if i power with the 2 tick wire the vacuum cleaner, it doesnt even turn on. So i don t know if the 2 small wires are only providing power to the control circuit
Thanks for watching and commenting! That's a great question. I have not monitored the actual signal between the battery and the motor PCBs, but I do know there is a digital handshake taking place. At least that is what I am assuming is happening because I have tried applying just voltage to the machine without the battery and running the machine off the battery with electrical leads inbetween (battery off the handle) and it would not work in either case.
That being said, there are some folks who have hacked power tool batteries to run their Dyson V6 vacs (pretty sketchy) and they seem to work. But on a V11 there is a more sophisticated control system.
Not much information, but I hope that helps. If I were to do it, I would probably use an OEM battery with a good PCB and bad cells and just swap the cells out. I think that would likely be the most seamless option.
@@HouseOfVacuums i see, thanks
I will order a used one then make some experiment / measurments before assembling
As I know how it worked for V8-V10 vacs, the controller inside the body works only with the controller inside the battery. That is the first issue. Second one is when you remove power from the battery pcb, the controller in it is locked without any chance to make it work again, even with new cells. So repair shops that offer cells replacement use external power supply (21v for v10, for v11 it should be 25v) that is connected in parallel with cells to the battery pcb while they replace worn cells.
@@3000d holy smokes, that is close to criminal
Excellent review, would like to see you review the Dyson outsize the same way you reviewed the Shark for practicality and ease of use.
Maybe one of these days I'll hit up the Dyson V12. Thanks for watching and the comment!
Hi I’m trying to figure out why my Dyson v11 battery keeps falling out of the machine. I got the red release button perfect and it moves it like it would release but on top it’s loose so i had to tape it to the machine?
Hmmmm, if the locking button is not broken off at the latch, my other guess would be it has warped and is not making positive locking contact when inserted. I think it would be a problem at the battery and not in the handle. Without looking at it directly it is hard to say what the issue is, but I would stick with the tape until it is time to replace the battery. I think replacing the battery should clear things up for you. Hope that helps!
Do you think It’s Worth to discharge the v11 completely? and or worth To charge at 80% with a timer in order to save lifetime? When using it every-days
Thanks for the comment!
It isn't necessary to fully discharge the V11 battery every time. The lithium-ion cells in the battery pack do not have a memory, so it will not effect long term performance.
You are correct, it is ALWAYS better to only charge these cells to 80% as the charge from 80-100% is most fatiguing to the cell chemistry. The issue is how to know when you have reached 80%. You can always try to do they math and pull it off the charger at what you approximate as 80%. And whatever owners do, they shouldn't leave these guys sitting on the charger indefinitely.
Thanks Again!
Fully discharging a lithium ion battery every time is an excellent way to kill them quickly.
thanks for the information. nice job
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for the comment and for watching!
This is the tool-less removable battery for the SV15 Outsize models.
The original V11s were model number SV14 and had the captive screw-in battery. When the updated the V11 series to SV15 they added quick release batteries. So there were standard V11s with both. The Outsize has always had the quick release battery and, to my knowledge, will not fit on the standard V11... although I have never tried it.
Very interesting, it does appear they are the same battery. Good to know!
Hey thank you for your video!
I have 2 brand new dyson v11 plug in batteries that I just had stored in my closet for couple of months. I tried to charge it back again and it would not charge (no blue light or anything.) Do you have any suggestions on how to revive it so it would charge ?
Thank you!
Oh man, I wish I could help but they might be bricked. The V11 PCB will lockout if the voltage of the cells falls below a certain voltage. I have a feeling that is what happened in your case. When that happens, there is nothing you can do to revive them.
@@HouseOfVacuums thabk you for the reply!
I was thinking maybe I can "revive em" like how people revive drill batteries. Thank you so much!
@@jaysonyoon6707 it is possible to revive them but on a certain skill level and equipment. it might need replacing a cell that is very low on voltage, needing to open the pack, remove the cell, put a new cell in using a cheap SPOT welder and a short nickel strip.
Nice video. Question, does V11 main body interrogate the battery via separate connectors and refuse to statt if it finds the battery wasn't a specific build; or it's happy as long as 25.2v is provided (thus generic BMS output works)?
Thanks
Good question... in my experiments with leads and separate power supplies, I have found that the motor just pulses. So the the motor control PCB is definitely "talking" to the battery PCB. There are obviously a lot of variables, but that is what I have observed.
Thanks for watching!
Hi, in mine v11, it does not even turn on the display if you provide only the 25v at the connector, i tried. There is a second small connector. Don t know if it is communicating or just powering the display control circuit
Hi, thanks for your video ! Can you tell me what voltage runs threw the secondary port of the battery ?
Do you mean where the battery pack plugs in to the handle?
Hi, great video, we have a 2nd battery but we don't really use it that often, do you think it's better to store it charged or discharged? 😃
Thanks for the comment! Typically, the best way to long-term store a lithium ion battery pack is between 50-75% of a charge. Best of luck!
What is the overall best cordless vacuum in your opinion?
Thanks for the question. In the grand scheme of things, this is still an emerging market and things are changing all the time. My personal favorite right now is the Miele HX-1 TriFlex. It's in the same price ballpark as the Dyson but made in German (including the battery pack!). I'm hopefully going to do a video on that vac soon... I just haven't been able to keep them in stock. Every time I get them in they are basically already sold! Eventually the supply will catch up with the demand.
@@HouseOfVacuums Thanks for replying! Luckily, we always have them in stock, because here in Hungary these premium cordless vacs aren't really popular because of their price. I'm planning to buy one and these were the two options for me. I kinda knew you would recommend the Miele because Miele is famous for its reliability and Quality. Have a great day sir and thanks again for replying.
Absolutely, happy to help!
@@HouseOfVacuums those Miele TriFlex cordless vacuums have a major issue; the dust bin and filter setup is archaic. Paper cone filters that need to be brushed or crudely banged against a bin after every use, and they do clog up incredibly quickly. IBAISAIC did a full review on one and rated basically everything about the vacuum other than the bin and filter setup, so much so that he doesn’t recommend them.
I agree, I would like Miele to have used a different filter system because it isn't the best option out there. That being said, for the purposes of form factor, cleaning capability, reparability and country of origin, my preference is still the Miele even with it's filter system. I saw ibaisaic's video and conclusion... while I have the same concern, it wasn't a deal breaker for me.
Bagless is bagless... it's always going to be messy, unfortunately.
Hi thank you for your interesting video! Could you help me? I got a used Dyson V11 Absolute without battery. I connected the + and - inside the handle and the lcd behind the filter lights up a little bit but the dyson doesn't work...I noticed there are two more circular pins inside the handle but i don't know what they are (additional power, button, etc) i even tried to find a diagram but i didn't got anything, do you know what they are or can you tell me where i have to connect them? I'm really desperate and i don't want to spend extra money for a new battery...thank you very much!
Hi Diego! Did you connect 120V to the pins? If that is the case, I'm concerned you might have fried the circuit board. The battery specs for this are 25.2V of DC current. If you hooked up 120V of AC current you may have damaged it.
In either case, you can't hook up an external power source to a Dyson stick. Even hooking up the battery remotely with leads won't work because the extra resistance will cause the circuit board to reject the battery. You will need to purchase a replacement battery to operate the machine, assuming you didn't hook up 120V AC current to it already. I hope that helps!
I got a hand on a high number of these batterys. Can i disassemble them and reuse them ?
Reuse the cells? It isn't uncommon for these to be repurposed for an ebike or something of that nature. Be careful and watch a lot of videos on how to safely harvest and reuse these cells. My videos are not sufficient of that kind of information. Thanks!
Know what the capacity of these batteries, which are 2170 batteries,
Thanks for watching and the question!
The Sony VTC6A 21700 cells in this pack have an individual capacity of 4000 mAh each.
@@HouseOfVacuums 4000 milliamp isn't that good when most manufacturers like LG and Panasonic are producing 5000 milliamps 2170 cells.....
There are definitely higher capacity 21700 cells. I think they probably chose the cells they did because Murata cells have very high, very stable maximum discharge ratings. From my calculations, the Dyson V11 should be running at around 685 Watts and pulling 25.2 Volts... which means it is pulling around 27.2 Amps! I actually think that given the draw rating, these are probably pretty well matched to the system.
@@HouseOfVacuums morelikely They're done a deal based on cost, in general I found Panasonic and LG make the best rechargeable batteries, I have been using some of the LG 18650 cells 3200 milliamp hour, they have been used very heavily for a few years, still performing well....
I did a little check just because I was curious. It looks like LG's 5000 mAh 21700 has a maximum discharge rating of a little under 10 amps:
www.illumn.com/batteries-chargers-and-powerpax-carriers/21700-lg-inr21700m50t-5000mah-high-discharge-flat-top.html
The Panasonic units have a max discharge rating of 15 amps:
www.eleteks.com/sale-10910151-panasonic-ncr21700a-5000mah-15a-high-drain-3-7v-21700-rechargeable-lithium-ion-batteries-original-21.html
Looking over the spec sheets for some other 21700s I'm not seeing any at 5000 mAh that would safely deliver the kind of amperage the V11 will pull.
Hi, Could you help me please? I got a used dyson V11 Absolute without battery, i tried to connect power to + and + pins inside the handle, but the dyson doesn't start. The display behind the filter just light up a little bit but nothing happen! I noticed there are two circular pins inside the handle the should be connected to the battery, but i don't know how and i didn't find any diagram or picture anywhere!!!Can you tell me which power or what i should connect to those pins to make my dyson work? Are them an open contact? I'm desperate i don't want to spend extra money for a new battery! thank you very much!
Hi Diego! Did you connect 120V to the pins? If that is the case, I'm concerned you might have fried the circuit board. The battery specs for this are 25.2V of DC current. If you hooked up 120V of AC current you may have damaged it.
In either case, you can't hook up an external power source to a Dyson stick. Even hooking up the battery remotely with leads won't work because the extra resistance will cause the circuit board to reject the battery. You will need to purchase a replacement battery to operate the machine, assuming you didn't hook up 120V AC current to it already. I hope that helps!
@@HouseOfVacuums @House Of Vacuums Hi thank you for your answer, No i didn't connect 220V (I'm in Europe) i connect a 25v 4ah dc battery i have, but i don't know what to connect to those other pins, anyway that's sad i must buy an original battery and i cannot power up the Dyson in another way...
@@diegogavani2583 the two extra connection are data communication beween battery pcb and the motor, without it the motor wont work
I believe the coating over the circuit board is silicone....not super clue. Btw, you could probably resell those batteries to the vaping community. As a vaper I must have a least 50 batteries...18650 and 21700
You are totally right. I put a little text note in the video that noted that it wasn't superglue... just a brain fart!
@@HouseOfVacuums LOL...been there, done than....like a million times.
Oh wow here I thought Dyson just made a really cool large battery but it’s just more of those cylindrical batteries used everywhere. Interesting
It's definitely a large battery, but just standard issue construction. 👍
@@HouseOfVacuums SHIIIEEET!! here I thought the battery was made from vibranium,
The chemistry makeup and power management is Dysons own. It explains why their power to battery ratios are so high compared to every other cordless on the market. Battery efficiency and longevity isn’t just the cells; a lot of it comes down to charging management and how the device draws the power from the battery, and that’s why dyson believe they have optimised their setup as it stands so they last 15 years. That may be a pipe dream but there are those who have 8 and 9 year old cordless Dysons with their original battery because they kept them topped up rather than letting them to do full battery drain cycles.
Thanks for the comment!
I do disagree with you on a couple of points. The battery chemistry is not proprietary. They are using off-the-shelf Murata (Sony) VTC5 and VTC6 cells. That was my original impetus behind dissecting batteries, because there was so much misinformation regarding the chemistry of the Dyson cells. It is nothing different than you would get in a standard power tool... although they are still good cells.
Battery life really comes down to a couple things. Making sure you get 6 or 7 (depending on model) long lasting cells in one battery pack and avoiding over-discharging (heat). Good cells is luck of the draw... it is just the nature of the lithium ion beast. Over-discharge is going to occur when owners run the vac for long periods of time on the highest power setting. If you completely discharge the battery on high, the battery of a V10 or V11 will get very hot. If your vacuuming style causes this to happen on a regular basis, the buildup of heat will degrade the cells until a failure.
Balanced charging is very important to both battery life and safety. Dyson does have balanced charging onboard, but again that is pretty industry standard for quality battery packs.
Lithium ion battery packs do not have memories, so the amount of discharge really isn't going to make a difference in battery life. What DOES hurt these cells is the charge cycle between 80-100% charge. This range of the charge cycle is hardest on the cells (for vacuums, tools, cell phones, etc.) So it is actually worse to keep you vacuum topped off with power than to not charge it every time that you use it.
Hope that helps explain what you saw in the video. Cheers!
@@HouseOfVacuums thank you for the informed reply. With respect, I spent some years at British Volt (google it) and I happen to know people who work at dyson HQ in the midlands here in England, and far from telling me industry secrets, they have invested literally billions of ££ in battery chemistry and technology. Their packs on the pre V10 models were made by LG Chemistry, and they experienced poor reliability from those cells. Dyson have bought several battery startup companies around the globe over the last 24 months. They wouldn’t go in to making an electric vehicle relying on battery cells from a 3rd party manufacturer. The latter part about discharging the batteries rather than keeping them topped up is the exact opposite of what dyson, Tesla, Apple, VW, Samsung and just about every major manufacture making products with lithium ion batteries. Ideally, they should be kept at a 50% state like you at so they are balanced, but this is impractical and not really the point of having a rechargeable device. Reducing the charging cycles (1 cycle being a full recharge and discharge) to a minimum goes a life way to preserving the life of the batteries, that has nothing to do with them having “memory”. Power and charging management varies widely from vendor to vendor and none of what you say explains the large efficiency gains Dyson have achieved with their models versus others and that’s not solely down to their motors.
Hi Oliver!
Thanks for the reply. I certainly appreciate a good discussion!
I do not disagree that Dyson has an incredible R&D department and that they have spent a great deal on cell development. It is obvious that Dyson sees cordless as a large part of their future, so this makes sense. All I am am saying is that in the instance of the battery packs for the V10 and V11, they are using off-the-shelf Murata cells. The VTC5D SKU is widely available to manufacturers and the SDS does not show anything out of the ordinary for construction. You can check it out here:
www.murata.com/-/media/webrenewal/products/batteries/cylindrical/pdf-sds/us18650vtc5d-sds.ashx?la=en-us&cvid=20200319070606000000
My guess is that the talk regarding Dyson's chemistry came into play when they started using Murata/Sony INR cells instead of the more traditional IMR/ICR. Murata's current INR technology is well beyond what Samsung/LG/Panasonic have in terms of both MAh and maximum discharge amperage. You couldn't get their current level of performance out of anything made by someone other than Murata. You combine INR cells with the brushless motors in the Dyson and you would have a significant advantage. All I am saying is that any company can buy the VTC5D cells, but they aren't able to do with them what Dyson can given their motor technology. In these particular cases only, Dyson's research into battery chemistry (not charging, discharging, etc) did not make it into the actual cells used.
So while Dyson is able to wring more efficiency out of the VTC5D, in my experience it has not resulted in remarkable reliability. My experience working on these machines is that the battery packs have a failure rate similar to other's. This is of course anecdotal... I can only speak to the cases I see in my shop.
I misunderstood your original comment when I started talking about memory. I agree with everything you said regarding cell maintenance .
@@Olliebobalong i BELIEVE THAT PRIOR to the V10 they were using NIMH batteries and not utilizing brushless motors. Now adays every power tool company from makita to milwaukee will talk about there "unique" battery technology and how it is different and better then the next guy. Makita has the STAR + XPS system, Milwaukee has the FUEL system with 21700's for even more power, ETC.... mILWAUKEE HAS LENGTHY VIDeos showing there process and how intricate the battery construction is. Yet these companies still use murata or samsung/lg I believe. Dyson is doing the same thing, I actually just traded in my day 1 release v11 and got the same model, which now has a removable battery. Curiously enough I heard a rumour that the upgraded model(silent upgrade as they do not advertise the new battery on the box) has around 5% more power. After testing with my anemometer and water lift device(nearly impossible) , the newer version did show 20 feet per second of wind speed across the board from low to high power. Low was 750 ft/sec on the og model and 770 on the new version etc...., The old model was cleaned to like new condition, including all cyclones. But it seems the cells themselves are as HOV stated, which aint bad. Have a good one! I love vacuums!
@@HouseOfVacuums Funny that you mention Dyson batteries have a similar failure rate. I purchased a refurbished Dyson V11 from Dyson.com, and they sent me a model with a broken battery that is 100% depleted. Won't charge or power on out of the box. Had to speak to customer service to get them to send me another battery.