Love the small LAC's! Our daughter went to Davidson, graduated with virtually no debt. and was able to get enough research experience to be admitted to a Stanford University Stem PhD program.
LAC's are criminally underrated for preparing students to go to very prestigious graduate school programs. I wish more parents expanded their scope to this! Thanks for sharing and congratulations to your daughter!!
Thanks Jay! I'll also add that because Davidson guarantees 100% needs based financial aid (without loans), our middle class family was able to easily afford the big price tag. @@CounselorJay
Harvey Mudd is such an elite school. US News Rankings for engineering are so skewed because they focus on engineering research which only big schools can do, but the engineers out of Harvey Mudd in my experience are only beaten by Cal Tech.
Of course! Community colleges are the underdogs that can actually make a lot more sense and turn out to be the better choice for a vast majority of students that unfortunately do not see it that way. I think if the student's drive and intentions are there, a CC is just really hard to beat from at the very least a financial perspective.
I appreciate a counselor taking liberal arts colleges seriously, and recommending his students do so as well. I had a fabulous experience at one. But viewer beware. The first verbal slip up calling Claremont colleges "Conglomerate" colleges I could let slide. The second made me doubt his overall familiarity behind the rest of the judgements. The service academies belong in an entirely different list. They're awesome, but they mold you. At LACs in general you discover (or think you discover) yourself. It's surprising US News has them there, but we don't need to follow in their footsteps. I wish counsellors would cool off the US News-ized academic world instead of adding fuel to the fire. There may be a difference between Bryn Mawr and Wellesley in endowments' returns the last two decades and thus rankings, and there may be downstream effects consequently over time but if a young woman would rather be near Philadelphia than Boston go for it because there's only a sliver of difference between them. For the hiring manager or graduate admissions officer inbox there's even less of a difference. It will be what she does with the time at any of these places more than the place itself. Here's the best part - perhaps the vast majority of people any LAC grad will meet in life will never have heard of your school whether it's Williams or Union so just enjoy it, hit the books and make some friends.
I can stand corrected: instead of conglomerate, it's consortium. To be fair, I didn't really think it'd make a big difference, but since it seems to tip you off on some sort of standard about it, I'll be sure to look deeper into it and see why this would be a dividing line for LAC attendees. I agree service academies don't look like they belong in the LAC categorization, but whether we like it or not, the most popular rankings (USNews) has it as such, and I'm trying to build off of that to offer more insight to those who wish to find it. I have posted another video explaining how the rankings are in many ways very arbitrary and incorporate variables that can be gamed. I don't think I would say I'm actively trying to add fuel to any fire. On the contrary, I make it my mission to explain to newer students/families about the real benefits of a LAC. I would disagree with you from the pov of a hiring manager. There are many cases as you reach higher in the domestic as well as international job markets where brand recognition, whether again we like it or not, plays a role. I'm here to provide my view of that after having worked with students for over a decade and seen where they go.
Richard, Service Academies actually don't MOLD you. They encourage deep thinking and an examination of the human nature. They place emphasis on thinking and evaluating for yourself. A military leader is very different than an enlisted soldier. If you think they mold you, you clearly didn't attend one. But, they probably should be in a different catagory due to the very fact that you owe a minimum of 5 years of military service and anyone who attends should understand that commitment.
Hi Counselor Jay. Have been watching your videos and am trying to figure out what is the wisest course of action for a student who wants to attend a liberal arts school and is a solid tier 3 applying to those schools as targets and some tier 2s as reaches and one or two tier 1 as super reaches. What do you suggest for their safeties? Does it make more sense to opt for a year of community college and a retry for the tier 3 and 2 and 1 instead of opting for an expensive subpar tier 4? Love to hear your input.
Determining a safety/floor for your college list comes down to a lot of personal priorities (ie, budget/cost-benefit to the learning style provided by LAC's, post-graduate plans of whether you wish to pursue research, mainstream employment, or graduate school, etc.). I can't get into all of these at once in a comment, so I'll take some of my personal cues and weigh them in. At a certain point, I think efficiency and financials need to make a stand. If my goal is to make it into a name-recognized school that carries with it stronger employment pipelines and social value, then I would look at the data for T3+ (Rank #40+) schools transfer rates to higher institutions versus the more budget-reasonable option for this kind of goal, like community colleges or state colleges. Where I draw the line can come down to also the consideration that I don't trust myself to do well in a looser educational environment like at a CC or state college, and would produce much better academic results for transfer applications by receiving the LAC experience with the more personalized educational approach. If I can trust that I will excel in any situation, I would lean towards a community or state college transfer approach, because they offer more cemented pipelines to mainstream universities at the higher ranks, aka they are often statistically better to go to in order to transfer up. I think sitting down as a family and deciding what the bottom/floor/safety set of colleges should be can help to clarify that line where we simply can say: "You know what, at this point, let's bank on you doing well for a year or two at a CC or state college for half the price compared to a LAC, and take advantage of the better chance to transfer up from there." For me, I'd draw the line at #30-40 LAC's. Anything lower, I would hedge my bets on myself to do well for a year or two at a CC or state college and transfer. Should I be unsuccessful, I can graduate with a degree from a state college (hence, state would be a safer middle ground than CC), and from there pursue work experience of 1-5 years and then pursue a master's degree to catch right back up. If I value the LAC experience, usually due to the need for continued development/maturity/professionalism, and the cost is acceptable, then I would stay there as a safer choice that then incubates me to perhaps pursue a good job through shining in the interviews and/or pursuing graduate school thereafter.
Wow, what an extremely thorough and informed response. Thank you so much for your advice. Just read it and can tell there is much to chew on there. Love the new video on test optional discussion.
Just reread your response again for the third time to completely get what you were saying. It is that thick with details. Thank you again it really lays out the choices and why one would want to choose one option vs the other.
@@CounselorJay I think the landscape has changed since you published this. Students with top ECs, leadership roles, top 5 in their class, and 4.5 weighted GPAs are not getting into some top 30 LACs. That student is turned away but is WAY beyond the ability of a CC. I could see your recommendation of a CC/or state local school for students looking at a #75-100 maybe....but to make that line at #30? A lot has changed the past 2 years.
For sure! I'm going to prioritize some of the high school information for a bit, but definitely will branch out into your request for MBA. Frankly, at this point, current applicants would be gunning for Round 3 deadlines, which is not ideal. So I'll focus on getting a jump start for the 2022-2023 application season and try to bring out MBA information in early spring.
The Thapar School of Liberal Arts and Sciences (TSLAS) was established to provide an academic atmosphere that is stimulating and inspirational. Young students are urged to discover their actual potential and use their ingenuity to address issues of international significance. By giving them chances to transcend disciplinary barriers, we encourage students to critically analyse complex situations from a variety of perspectives. Our Foundation courses and course prerequisites from disciplines outside than the student's "Major" discipline are intended to accomplish that along with giving students a thorough understanding of the disciplinary material in their chosen "Major" field. Any idea can be explored in the school's vibrant, welcoming environment for research.
Love the small LAC's! Our daughter went to Davidson, graduated with virtually no debt. and was able to get enough research experience to be admitted to a Stanford University Stem PhD program.
LAC's are criminally underrated for preparing students to go to very prestigious graduate school programs. I wish more parents expanded their scope to this! Thanks for sharing and congratulations to your daughter!!
Thanks Jay! I'll also add that because Davidson guarantees 100% needs based financial aid (without loans), our middle class family was able to easily afford the big price tag. @@CounselorJay
Great content! Super informative.
Thank you!
Harvey Mudd is such an elite school. US News Rankings for engineering are so skewed because they focus on engineering research which only big schools can do, but the engineers out of Harvey Mudd in my experience are only beaten by Cal Tech.
Agreed; I often introduce students to Harvey Mudd as the Caltech/MIT equivalent of LAC's!
Trin and Conncoll are definitely on 3, especially bc ranks are dynamic, and professors too, but prestige and cross-college resources are not
Yes, thanks for giving a shout out to community colleges!
Of course! Community colleges are the underdogs that can actually make a lot more sense and turn out to be the better choice for a vast majority of students that unfortunately do not see it that way. I think if the student's drive and intentions are there, a CC is just really hard to beat from at the very least a financial perspective.
did a lot of research & sent 2 kids to tier one LACs, Counselor Jay is right on !
mxncb
I appreciate a counselor taking liberal arts colleges seriously, and recommending his students do so as well. I had a fabulous experience at one.
But viewer beware. The first verbal slip up calling Claremont colleges "Conglomerate" colleges I could let slide. The second made me doubt his overall familiarity behind the rest of the judgements.
The service academies belong in an entirely different list. They're awesome, but they mold you. At LACs in general you discover (or think you discover) yourself. It's surprising US News has them there, but we don't need to follow in their footsteps.
I wish counsellors would cool off the US News-ized academic world instead of adding fuel to the fire. There may be a difference between Bryn Mawr and Wellesley in endowments' returns the last two decades and thus rankings, and there may be downstream effects consequently over time but if a young woman would rather be near Philadelphia than Boston go for it because there's only a sliver of difference between them.
For the hiring manager or graduate admissions officer inbox there's even less of a difference. It will be what she does with the time at any of these places more than the place itself.
Here's the best part - perhaps the vast majority of people any LAC grad will meet in life will never have heard of your school whether it's Williams or Union so just enjoy it, hit the books and make some friends.
I can stand corrected: instead of conglomerate, it's consortium. To be fair, I didn't really think it'd make a big difference, but since it seems to tip you off on some sort of standard about it, I'll be sure to look deeper into it and see why this would be a dividing line for LAC attendees.
I agree service academies don't look like they belong in the LAC categorization, but whether we like it or not, the most popular rankings (USNews) has it as such, and I'm trying to build off of that to offer more insight to those who wish to find it. I have posted another video explaining how the rankings are in many ways very arbitrary and incorporate variables that can be gamed. I don't think I would say I'm actively trying to add fuel to any fire. On the contrary, I make it my mission to explain to newer students/families about the real benefits of a LAC.
I would disagree with you from the pov of a hiring manager. There are many cases as you reach higher in the domestic as well as international job markets where brand recognition, whether again we like it or not, plays a role. I'm here to provide my view of that after having worked with students for over a decade and seen where they go.
Richard, Service Academies actually don't MOLD you. They encourage deep thinking and an examination of the human nature. They place emphasis on thinking and evaluating for yourself. A military leader is very different than an enlisted soldier. If you think they mold you, you clearly didn't attend one. But, they probably should be in a different catagory due to the very fact that you owe a minimum of 5 years of military service and anyone who attends should understand that commitment.
Very informative! Thanks.
Could you explain why Colby is not ranked highly?
Hi Counselor Jay. Have been watching your videos and am trying to figure out what is the wisest course of action for a student who wants to attend a liberal arts school and is a solid tier 3 applying to those schools as targets and some tier 2s as reaches and one or two tier 1 as super reaches. What do you suggest for their safeties? Does it make more sense to opt for a year of community college and a retry for the tier 3 and 2 and 1 instead of opting for an expensive subpar tier 4? Love to hear your input.
Determining a safety/floor for your college list comes down to a lot of personal priorities (ie, budget/cost-benefit to the learning style provided by LAC's, post-graduate plans of whether you wish to pursue research, mainstream employment, or graduate school, etc.). I can't get into all of these at once in a comment, so I'll take some of my personal cues and weigh them in.
At a certain point, I think efficiency and financials need to make a stand. If my goal is to make it into a name-recognized school that carries with it stronger employment pipelines and social value, then I would look at the data for T3+ (Rank #40+) schools transfer rates to higher institutions versus the more budget-reasonable option for this kind of goal, like community colleges or state colleges. Where I draw the line can come down to also the consideration that I don't trust myself to do well in a looser educational environment like at a CC or state college, and would produce much better academic results for transfer applications by receiving the LAC experience with the more personalized educational approach. If I can trust that I will excel in any situation, I would lean towards a community or state college transfer approach, because they offer more cemented pipelines to mainstream universities at the higher ranks, aka they are often statistically better to go to in order to transfer up.
I think sitting down as a family and deciding what the bottom/floor/safety set of colleges should be can help to clarify that line where we simply can say: "You know what, at this point, let's bank on you doing well for a year or two at a CC or state college for half the price compared to a LAC, and take advantage of the better chance to transfer up from there." For me, I'd draw the line at #30-40 LAC's. Anything lower, I would hedge my bets on myself to do well for a year or two at a CC or state college and transfer. Should I be unsuccessful, I can graduate with a degree from a state college (hence, state would be a safer middle ground than CC), and from there pursue work experience of 1-5 years and then pursue a master's degree to catch right back up.
If I value the LAC experience, usually due to the need for continued development/maturity/professionalism, and the cost is acceptable, then I would stay there as a safer choice that then incubates me to perhaps pursue a good job through shining in the interviews and/or pursuing graduate school thereafter.
Wow, what an extremely thorough and informed response. Thank you so much for your advice. Just read it and can tell there is much to chew on there. Love the new video on test optional discussion.
Just reread your response again for the third time to completely get what you were saying. It is that thick with details. Thank you again it really lays out the choices and why one would want to choose one option vs the other.
@@CounselorJay I think the landscape has changed since you published this. Students with top ECs, leadership roles, top 5 in their class, and 4.5 weighted GPAs are not getting into some top 30 LACs. That student is turned away but is WAY beyond the ability of a CC. I could see your recommendation of a CC/or state local school for students looking at a #75-100 maybe....but to make that line at #30? A lot has changed the past 2 years.
Digging these tier lists. Can you do one for MBAs?
For sure! I'm going to prioritize some of the high school information for a bit, but definitely will branch out into your request for MBA. Frankly, at this point, current applicants would be gunning for Round 3 deadlines, which is not ideal. So I'll focus on getting a jump start for the 2022-2023 application season and try to bring out MBA information in early spring.
O moi o88
Dude, REED can give anyone a run in the race. It is a mini-Chicago.
Hey Jay, not sure if you still monitor this video but have you done a more recent update, 2024? Thanks
The Thapar School of Liberal Arts and Sciences (TSLAS) was established to provide an academic atmosphere that is stimulating and inspirational. Young students are urged to discover their actual potential and use their ingenuity to address issues of international significance. By giving them chances to transcend disciplinary barriers, we encourage students to critically analyse complex situations from a variety of perspectives. Our Foundation courses and course prerequisites from disciplines outside than the student's "Major" discipline are intended to accomplish that along with giving students a thorough understanding of the disciplinary material in their chosen "Major" field. Any idea can be explored in the school's vibrant, welcoming environment for research.
How is Richmond 3?
Do you think it should be higher or lower? I am considering applying there
You pronounced Bowdoin wrong FYI
Got it, Bowdn. Thanks!