I see flocks, goats, sheep, cattle, grazing all mentioned in the Hadiths and the Sirat Rasul. I don’t see a lot of fertile grazing land around Mecca, certainly not enough to support cattle and sheep,
Correct. I was in Eastern Saudi Arabia. Even the food for the camels has to arrive by ship. The only animals I seen were camels. No more than three in total. The belief system did not start in the vicinity of Jeddah, Medina, Mecca. There is no vegetation capable of supporting the story, or the number of people before the invention of oil fuelled transport.
When did a rigorous academic and rational approach to study become a hate crime that wider society wants to supress? I heard you described as Islamophobes when Islam actually owes you a massive debt of gratitude for all the work you have done.
I see a possible reason that the original Ur (of 2000 BC) might have got shifted from the southern Iraqi location where HIstorians place it today. To this location up in modern-day Turkey almost 3000 years later in the 8th Century. That is because of its proximity to Harran. Because this is where the BIblical account states that Abraham (from Ur ) and his family stop quite for some time, and it is where Abraham's father (Terah) dies, and so would be buried in this area (Gen 11:31-32). It is also in this same area that the rest of Abraham's immediate family (such as his brother Nahor) remain and where Abraham sends his servant to get a wife for Isaac (Gen 24:10; 25:20). In fact, another brother of Abraham (who seems to die before they leave Ur) was called Haran (Gen 11: 27-28) which could be where Harran gets its name. So if Abraham's father is buried in this area, might that have got confused over time with Abraham himself? Also given that Abraham from Ur (before he left for Canaan) lived in this area. Then his family (also from Ur) continued to live there for several generations afterward. Might this be a reason that the original site for Ur got mixed up with where the family from Ur ended up? Any confusion would also useful to the Ummayad's version of ensuring that important locations of their theological history are located within their realm of power. An idea that Abbasid's seem to borrow for their own relocation of important theological sites.
That's ok. We need to thoroughly peer review it first. I'm not perfect, so any inadvertent errors will need to be first excised before it is set for the wider audience. But it will go mainstream if it is hitting on the truth as the truth can't be hidden.
@tim hamat 30% of all Muslim born in US are leaving Islam. Mohammad Hijab confirmed 33:56 Al-Lah prays. Salafists Farid leaks, Hijab and Dr.Yasir Qadhi placed bombs under the fundaments of Islam (standard narrative has holes). 37 different Arabic Qurans. Awful Hadiths and Tafsirs. Etc etc.. TH-cam and the Internet helping that people open their eyes about the cult of Islam and you can't stop it.
@tim hamat Who bank rolled the construction? Saudis. Not locals or converts. Even to prominent Journalists in SA have asked for changes in the practices and the need for a 'clean' Qur'an. Why? Things may change faster than you are able to grasp.
@tim hamat I admit one point. Truth will never fade away. One can be in absolute denial about it, oppress any beholder of it, kill many of its beholders, terrorize the others. It's being done now. Half of Iranian are now out of Islam according to a recent survey. I saw a part of a livestream with AP and an Iranian reading that survey. The Iranian guy (a sceptic) said that he has often to handle people who wants to decorate trees with mullahs. I would not be surprised if other Islamic countries were in that shape. Truth will never fade away. To have it, one needs personal opinions, freedom of opinions, personal thinking or truth can't be reached by the individuals. Kill it and your country decays. Individuals cease to be responsible for anything in that country. Things can only worsen when its inhabitants are only pawns of the power that be.
Here's quote from the paper on Ur on page 2 in the first paragraph -- "Sumerian Ur is never called “Ur of the Chaldees” in any of the numerous references to Ur in the cuneiform tablets. The designation of Abraham’s Ur as “of the Chaldees” distinguishes it from the other cities called Ur, including Sumerian Ur located about a thousand miles from Haran"
Alasdair Maclean Interesting. I wonder if there has been much archaeological work around Edessa which might shed some light on its traditional connection with the city of Ur.
@@ekondigg6751 According to the article the Ur of Abraham is today's Sanliurfa (Urfa) just a few miles north-west of Harran. Also referred to as Edessa at other points in history. Tablets found in Ugarit (Syria) place the merchants from the city of Ura under the rulership of the Hittite king. In Akkadian, the city is called Ura but then you say it in Hebrew you drop the 'a' at the end of the word. The kingdom of Hittites is north of Ugarit into Turkey. There has been quite a lot of archaeological work done, but mostly in other ancient cities in the region. Journal of Near Eastern Studies (Vol. 17, p. 28, 1958) www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdf/10.1086/371420
12:30: Jacob of Edessa. One does not know when Jacob (d.708) see the prayer of the muhajirun in Alexandria: plausibly 660-70 . Note that Hira was not called "Kufa" yet. "Your question is vain ... for it is not to the south that the Jews pray, nor either do the Muslims (mhaggriiye). The Jews who live in Egypt, and also the Muslims there, as I saw with my own eyes and will now set out for you, prayed to the east, and still do, both peoples-the Jews towards Jerusalem and the Muslims towards the Ka'ba. And those Jews who are to the south of Jerusalem pray to the north; and those in the land of Babel, in Hira and in Basra, pray to the west. And also the Muslims who are there pray to the west, towards the Ka'ba; and those who are to the south of the Ka'ba pray to the north, towards that place. So from all this that has been said, it is clear that it is not to the south that the Jews and Muslims here in the regions of Syria pray, but towards Jerusalem or the Ka'ba, the patriarchal places of their races", Hoyland, Seeing... 1997. p.565, sqq.
"The patriarchal places of their races".....seems significant! The comparison of the Muslims and the Jews ...and their apparent 'dispersion' from their ancestral 'places' is also interesting.
Why is Mecca not mentioned until almost the end of the quran? Sura 48 is actually the 111th sura. Why did he wait so long to mention it, if it was so important? A place where all the BS began.
The looming problem for both Mecca and Medina is that there are other places with those names. There is a Median in Marrakesh, one in Iraq and in the Hajaz. The Mecca, Becca is not just a rhyme. I wonder how may are buried under the sands in North Africa, Iraq, Tashkent and the Gobi?
Honestly, it's all the terrific YT gang. What a bunch of smart guys❣❣❣❣❣. Sure they (all the usual suspects) managed to have me change my outlook on humanity.👏👏👏👏👏 (❣🇮🇪) LOTS OF LOVE &RESPECT from ITALY.
Guys - great job in His service. I'm just wondering how the exposure of this stuff can go out to the Muslims who will not believe it anyway (at least most won't) but how can this stuff be made available to governments especially in the West. This is the age of information and the one with the most information usually wins. Sooner or later, we've got to start thinking on those lines.
@@dawahchl4182 just like both the OT and the NT is supposed to have mentioned Muhammad, is it? The desperation comes from you Muslims trying to read your nonsense into our Biblical texts. Even Muhammad was one confused scrambled-brained individual, alleged to have mistaken the Satanic Verses for divine revelation. Whoa! Not so good prophet material I would think considering he was Allah's favorite boy.
@@richardarthur7864 both OT and NT prophecized Muhammad pbuh but you are blind follower who accept nothing but lies. your wishful thinking of someone dying for your sins is deluding you. the old testament also says God is unseen, immortal, he is not a man and no dies for your sins. you rejected all of those verses and you follow a book written by anonymous people told you God committed suicide for your sins.
@@dawahchl4182 You are the reason why ISLAM needs to be irradicated from the West. The lies of Islam started 1400 years and continue to this day. Your lies have been debunked time and time again but you are so brainwashed that you will still keep repeating your nonsense time and time again. How will you ever change? The West is fooling itself by bringing in people who will never change. And of course, not changing is one thing - worse is when you brainwashed individuals think you are doing favors for Allah by bringing your violence to the streets (have we not seen this already?) of the West but also to your own countries - and guess what, your Book of Lies instructs you to do so. I'm just wondering about the self-proclaimed Muhammad prophesy in the Bible. Was God really intending to bring in a prophet who for the most part is an obnoxious, sexually perverted thug? I think not.
Mel and Jay another great day at the office just like the Koran has been exposed so is Islamic traditions of Mecca great stuff , Brian from Dublin Ireland
@@francisgan4848. Yes hid tomb is long, but why assume that that is his length? Its possible, that graves were not dug deep, and what you see in length, is actually bodies laid head to toe, to head and toe and so on. Eg Adam a.s was no 90 ft guy but a standard sized man.
@@mitchpeter5718. I have read it, and the is even claims of Adams footprint its big (I think in Sri Lanka). Even another prophet(I forgot his name) has a massive leg, the length of a mountain. But all I say, is it all could be false stories. The best way too Lead people in life as false thinkers. Also I know bible does talk on giants, but that cannot be presumed to mean large jumbo humans(but I cannot really say bcoz I have not studied them bible verses). On top of that, the are quite a lot of giant beings(claimed) to be fossalized amongst landscapes across the world. Yet I keep an open mind on photo evidences of mountains that REALLY do look like jumbo beings (they are on utube).
Ha 😂 Yes I've recently read this Hadith. Allah created Adam 90 feet tall and after the fall, man has gradually become "shorter" since. What a load of cock-winkle 🐓🐓 😂😂😂
I think Mel meant Jacob doesn't mention what the location of the Ka'ba was back then. He uses the term "Mecca" in multiple senses along the presentation which need to be contextualized, yes.
32:06 Jacob does not mention "Mecca" simply because *he does not know* that "Mecca" exist.Nobody knows it at that time since "Mecca" did not exist yet. Why Jacob would not have mentioned "Mecca" if he knew it? *Why Mel doesn't he ask himself the question?*
Jacob doesn't call the place "Mecca", he calls it "the Ka'ba." The question is, why the Byzantine-Arab chronicle calls it "Mecca." It seems as a result of the con-fusion of places due to the relocation and renaming...
Excellent material. Whether Mel is right about all the details or not, one thing is clear: the modern Mecca did not exist at the time the Quran was written.
Nice to hear this kind of thing, with a good amount of facts. On the location of the city of Ur, it's easy to understand why people thought that Ur should be near Aram Naharaim because that's what the Bible seems to imply: In Gen 11:28 we read "Haran died during his father's lifetime in the land of his birth, that is, in Ur of the Chaldeans." and in Gen 11:31 "Terah took his son Abram, his grandson Lot (Haran's son), and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram's wife, and they journeyed together from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to the land of Canaan. But when they had gone as far as Haran, they settled there". Later, in Gen 24:4 Abraham instructs his servant "you are to go to my country and to my family and acquire a wife for my son Isaac." The servant goes to Aram-naharaim (Aram of the two rivers Euphrates and Tigris) in Gen 24:10. He doesn't go to the Ur that was discovered in the C19th near Basra. Instead he goes to roughly the same area as is mentioned here. To reconcile that I had always assumed that Abraham, having grown up in a nomadic family, was simply born near the city of Ur because his family had wandered all the way over there, but that his family originally came from Aram-Naharaim. Maybe there always was another Ur in Aram after all? That would make more sense to the Biblical narrative, and lend weight to the apparent tradition that Edessa was the Ur of Abraham. This is, of course, speculation, but maybe warrants some investigation even if it's not directly in the line of discovering the real origins of Islam.
Excellent stuff Mel and Jay! This discussion brought many of the dots together for me as I study this. One big question I have as I watch your stuff and Dan Gibson's stuff is has anyone done research or written any good stuff of the theological and historical significance of the Kaaba? If the black stone was in Petra as Dan said, and then moved to the present Mecca, it seems to be of extreme importance. From my Christian perspective, it sure looks like idol worship to me. It also appears to be so central to the Hajj. Where the black stone is where one needs to pray to? I like Dan Gibson's work on this. Another question I have is hard to frame. I'm wondering if there is a historical Muhammad that has been distorted through the political processes of the first two hundred years of Islam? Keep up the good work. Can we find the "historical" Muhammad?
Redaction & fusion (of many different concepts into one) seems to be one of the common methods employed by central Asian origin empires. Kushans (who were central Asians) did the same to Buddhism by turning Buddha into a Shakya(Scythian). Ashvaghosha wrote a new biography of Buddha under Kushan patronage. 4th Buddhist council was held under Kushan patronage. Kushans also tried to mess with Hinduism by claiming that Rama's son Kusha is the originator of Kushans. Similarly, Abbasids (who seem to be central Asians) redacted and fused concepts & myths of Islam. This seems to be a common tactic used by central Asian origin empires to take control of their (non-central Asian) populace.
No the idea that Kushans were a foreign Central Asian dynasty or were related to the supposed Chinese Yeuzhi is a false fabrication made up by Eurocentrist scholars whom intentionally misinterpreted Chinese texts using wrong translations in order to further attribute a major Indic indigenous economic world power and dynasty to foreign origins just like they did with the false Aryan migration theory. A Kushan is the exact same as a Kushite, the ending prefix designate the same meaning. The Kushites were an ancient Indian Indus origin peoples that settled and colonized the East Africa region as stated by Herodotus. The Kushan dynasty had strong trade and commercial links to the East Africa region following up in this, and it's highly unlikely that illiterate random backwards tent dwelling Central Asian tribes would or would set up such networks, let alone be able to waltz into the India region and just set up a major commercial dynasty just like that, which is incredibly impluasible. And considering horse cavalry warfare didn't work in India region, or India was not conducive to horse cavalry movement as even Alexander the great couldn't even cross the Hindu Kush mountains or South Asian deserts on his own or bypass them; and even the Mongols had trouble doing it also and their bows and arrows stopped working in the tropical monsoon lit environment of India and Alexander being stronger then the Yeuzhi couldn't even defeat or control a tiny Indic Kingdom, indicates Kushans being Central Asian foreign origin is a hoax fabrication.
@@sharrilhasin9600 Kushans were central Asians. Indian texts also confirm this view. The Indian Hindu Puraanas and Indian (Kashmiri) History Rajatarangini also say this. Indian Hindu Puraanas call them Turushkas (Turks or Shweta Huna i.e. white huns). Chinese called them Yuezhi. They were driven out of Mongolia by Xiongnu (another Mongolian tribe) in 250 BCE. (Same time central Asian Parthian also entered Iran). Yes, cavalry was not conducive to India, so Kushan presence was mostly in North-West India (today's Pakistan & Afghanistan) & some areas of gangetic plain. (Saketa) along with Kashmir. Their presence in gangetic plain & Kashmir was eliminated by Indians (my research says that this Indian freedom struggle was led by Emperor Vikrama. Look up, the Vikram Samvat date of Kashmir) Kushan remnants continued to exist in North-West India (today's Pakistan & Afghanistan) as Western Satraps. They controlled the silk route and ports of Gujarat & Sindh. They became vassals of Parthians & Sassanid (Iran). Western Satraps collapsed in 450 CE when Gupta empire spread. Kushan reformation of Buddhism (250 BCE to 350 CE): 1) New bio of Buddha by Ashwaghosha (using the already popular Indian legends like Ramayana & Mahabharata) 2) 4th Buddhist council held by Kanishka in Kashmir according to Xuan Tsang. 3) Concept of Abhidharmas (New rules or New religion) introduced 4) extensive commentaries (Mahavibhasa) to give new meanings to Old terms. 5) Buddha as Shakyamuni (Scythian hermit) 6) Buddha was made to originate in Ikshavaku dynasty (same dynasty as Hindu Rama because central asian Kushans claimed family connection to Indian Rama & Indian Buddha). 7) renewed Buddhist evangelism: spreading Buddhism to China, middle-east & Greece. Lokakshema & Kumarajiva were both Kushans (Central Asians). They reworked the Chinese Buddhism completey through translations. 8) Language of Buddhism was changed from Pali to Gandhara (& Sanskruth). Because Kushans (and their remnants Western Satraps) were primarily situated in Afghanistan (Gandhara). 9) New scriptures to support these new ideas: a) Sadh Darma Pundarika Sutram (Lotus Sutra) b) Lalita Vistara 10) A new 'Era' called Shakya (Scythian) Era was started by western satraps in 50 CE. 11) Huge statues of Buddha popularized. (Later, they broke these huge statues when they became Muslims). Compare this with Abbassid reformation of Islam (725 CE to 1525 CE): 1) Turning Mohammed into one single person from honorific title. 2) New bio (Sira) of Mohammed (by Ibn Hisham) (Mohammed portrayed as a caravan raider because Abbasids were raiders from Central Asia). 3) Compilation of traditions (Sunna) concerning Mohammed by Al Bhukhari (of Bukhara, Uzbekistan in Central Asia). 4) New commentaries(Tafsir) on Quran by Al Tabari. 5) Redoing Dome of Rock & Al Aqsa mosque by Al Mansur (Abbassid King) (source: Ibn Kathir) 6) Redoing Mecca by Al Mansur (Abbassid King) and fixing Qibla (prayer direction) to Mecca in Arabia. 7) Shortening Shahada (Islamic oath) from 3 lines to 2 lines. 8) Concept of Sharia (Islamic Law) 9) Rewriting the history of Ummayyad. Introducing the idea of Rashidun period (4 rightly guided caliphs) to demonize Ummayyads. (Source: Chinese chronicles). 10) concept of Ahruf & Qiraat (Diacritical mark differences in Quran used to give new meaning to the words in Quran). 11) Concept of Abrogation of some Quran verses by other Quran verses. 12) A new epoch of 'Hijra' was introduced into Islamic calendar. 13) Breaking statues (particularly of Buddha).
@@trira1171 Wrong there is zero indication that Kushans were Central Asians, the idea they had anything to do with the Yeuzhi of Chinese accounts (which is basis of them being Central Asians) was a fabrication made up by Europeans and British and planted by them to attribute a major commercial dynasty to foreign origins. There is no ancient Indian text anything suggesting they Kushans were foreign, stop making stuff up. The idea they were foreign Central Asians Is based on false mistranslations and deliberately mis interpretated vague texts from Chinese accounts that have been shown to be wrong recently. The supposed Kashmiri accounts are all false and have been fabricated and planted by the British, just like they did with the Aryan migration which has been proven to be false. A Kushan is the same as a "Kushite", the only difference being that the "-an" and "-ite" which are actually suffixes indicating the same thing, but does not prove they were actually different. The ancient Kushites were an Indus Valley Indian origin people that migrated to East Africa and colonized the region and were behind the Axum civilization in East Africa and played a major role in the formation of ancient Egyptian civilization according to and stated directly by ancient Greek accounts as stated by writers such as Herodotus. So the Kushans obviously were descended from the ancient Kushites from Indus Valley as the "Kush" subject indicates, but the Kushans had strong trade, linguistic and commercial links to the East Africa reigon as expected but there is zero evidence random Turkic or illiterate nomadic Central Asian people had which just how much bullshit the Europeans have fabricated in creating this false association. It's also highly implausible to impossible that illiterate powerless backwards nomads could suddenly waltz into the ancient India region considering that horses cavalry movement and warfare didn't work or could not be done in the Hindu-Kush and Karakorum mountain range complexes and Alexander the great had trouble defeating a tiny insignificant Indic kingdom whom was stronger then the alleged Central Asian ancestors of the Kushans and had stronger numbers and resources supporting him. The Kushan empire was not based in Pakistan-Afghanstan, it was based in Northern and Western India and now you are showing you don't know much about this subject and are simply repeating hearsay because you are a typical ignorant indiot coolie whom simply repeats stuff without an ounce of critical thinking and zero original thought. Pakistan and Afghanistan are the regions with deserts and mountains that are impassable for horse and cavalry movement due to inhospitable deserts and near impassable mountain range complexes, as Alexander the great learned and wrote about you ignoramus. The Kushans were definitely not Turks or had anything to do with Turks. "Huna's" were not Turks, and Turks were not called "Huna's" in Vedic accounts, which is something you are making up. "Greeks" were called Huna's by Armenians and Persians and others but not Turks. There is a paper published recently that shows that the entire Kushan-Yeuzhi Central Asian association link is false and mistranslated but there is zero evidence that the Kushans were foreign at all and everything suggesting so has been fabricated and made up. www.academia.edu/28643805/Kushan_were_not_Yehzhi-based_on_New_Discoveries_and_Reinterpretation_from_Chinese_Sources
Only suggestion: when discussing 7th century events, it is probably more accurate to refer to Hagrites, Saracens, or Ishmaelites as did the contemporary non-Arab authors did. No 'Muslims' until ~690 AD at the earliest.
Mel, Just one of many many things, have you noticed that ALL mentions of Becca, Mecca and the Kabah were in Surah's that were produced in Medina ? The one about the FIRST house for mankind in BECCA just after he changed the prayer direction............ the one about Mecca .....after He caused to overcome them JUST after the treaty of Hudabaya ??
30:19 If "Mecca" existed in Iraq, It is *impossible* that no one has ever heard of this city: it is an area that has been known since Alexander, where the Greeks settled and whose topography the Romans know very well. No one in the sources has ever heard of Mecca in the Peninsula or Iraq.
Aren't you suppossing that "Mecca" was then known as a city? Mel just says that it was a place (on the doorsteps of Edessa [=Ur (of the Chaldeans)], a battlefield somewhere between Ur and Carrhae. Maybe after it was invented and relocated it was given the status of "city"... (Just guessing).
This is a very good point. If Mecca did exist, how come there is no mention of it in any of the sources in Iraq? As you mentioned, this was a place that was thoroughly well known by the Greeks and Romans. Yet there is no mention of it in their sources.
A hypothetical explanation could be the city had another name if Mecca is the city of Muhammad and couldn't, therefore, exist before this man was known. So, the silence of the Greeks and Romans who did not care especially about the local belief system is explained. Then, this city was made up out of nothing.
@@didierfavre2356 I would tell more or less the same thing here: It is rather implausible that such a discourse (in the Quran) about Christianity and the status of Jesus as a prophet and not being the son of God could be "proclaimed" publicly in Iraq as Iraq is totally Christianized since 200 AD, without being noted by other people in the sources (scribal or inscriptions). Same in all inhabited part of the Peninsula: Najran, Yemen, the East Coast and even less Syria-Palestine under Roman Christian rule since the 4th c.
I'd agree. It is just the date is a few years later than expected. The whole story would make more sense if the Masjid of new Mecca was built in the 750s.
@@Speakers154 There was a "new"/invented Mecca but in the Hijaz before the Abbasids. Curious that you do not see who have "find" it. Read Tabari carefully.
This is important....there are hadiths in Sunnah that say Mohammad told them which three mosques they could go to, because the person reporting the hadith said they asked him, one was Al Aqsa.....Al Aqsa was built in and called Al Aqsa in 705, a full 70+ years after mohammad died. So how did the dead guy walk around telling people to go Al Aqsa? More than one mohammad......
6:50 Mecca? There's no "Mecca" as the traditional account recount it before the taking over by Arabs in 632-640. And as Muhammad is inseparable of it in the traditional account, there is no Muhammad.There was no Muhammad proclaiming its anti Christian Quran in Petra as Petra had a bishopric since 420 AD. Same in Hira, Jerusalem, Northern Iraq. There is another explanation. It need to set aside Muhammad that you still keep.
Lots of Meccas just like lot of Becies (Becca) just another title added to the local names. Becca? Mecca?!? We don't need no Becca! Cut! You did it again that's Badges. Not Becca. Sorry she always on my mind.
Excellent work! The location of Mecca is spot-on! It is between the Tigris & Euphrates rivers near Gogapili-tepi the archeological site going back to the ice age. Most bible nerds interested in the end times know this to the site to the seat of political babylon and Mecca to be that of Religions Babylon (i.e. harlot riding the beast), after the power center of the planet has traveled its full course around the globe overtaking the Americas in a somewhat distant future!
31:15 And as Mecca is a novel creation, nobody knew ( *especially in Spain* where the Byzantine-Arab chronicle is written in 741) where "Mecca" was. And as *the Arabs ruled Iraq the writer put it there* as he knows that "Mecca" *could not have been located in where was the Roman Christian Empire.* Whereas, actually, Mecca where Zubayr was, was in the Peninsula, not Iraq. The writer of the chronicle is mistaken ; he is very far away of the events.
Al-Tabari clearly is not sure about what to make from the Abraham / Mecca distances. "Some also say that the ram's horn was seen hanging in the Ka'bah (which would suggest that the sacrifice took place near Mecca and must therefore have involved Ish- mael, since Isaac was in Syria). This is not a sensible argument either, because the horn could possibly have been brought from Syria to the Ka'bah and hung up there." archive.org/details/HistoryAlTabari40Vol/History_Al-Tabari_10_Vol/page/n537/mode/2up and a bit furrther he visits hagar archive.org/details/HistoryAlTabari40Vol/History_Al-Tabari_10_Vol/page/n539/mode/2up "when Abraham visited Hagar he was carried on al-Burāq, setting out early from Syria. He rested at midday in Mecca, then left Mecca and spent the night with his family in Syria. This was before Isaac was able to walk and take care of himself, at which point Abraham expected him to do his duty by worshipping his Lord and glorifying His sanctity."
Still, whats the likelihood of a site full of idols staying in the heart of the christianized roman empire? With none of the 300+ idols with greek or latin (latinized) names? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pre-Islamic_Arabian_deities P.s. except qaaba is at petra perhaps
Thank you very much for yet another insightful video about the origins of islam. :) I have another interesting point related to this explanation which could be looked into, could "Harran (Carrhae)" be the same place as "Haram" in "masjid al haram". The word "Harran" could have developed into "Haram" in the above name giving rise to the idea that Abraham was from Harran. Could "Harran" be the same as the Biblical "Paran"?, if that is true, it would make perfect sense to say that Abraham had something to do with "Harran (Paran)" whilst the muslims mixed up the word "Harran" with "Haram" leading to the idea that Abraham visited the Kaaba in the Masjid al Haram in the modern day Mecca. This development of "Harran" to "Haram" would also make sense phonetically because open-mouthed sounds (in this case "palato-velar") usually tend to get converted to closed-mouth ones ("labial sounds") over time (though it depends).
I will leave the linguistic question to the able linguists amongst our viewers, for example, Peter. Paran/Pharan is in the Sinai peninsula; I think it would be a reasonable alternative name for the Hegev desert, though it is probably a smaller area than it. If we look at the Biblical account, Abraham is already re-settled in Bethsheba in southern Israel, so the journey into Paron is just south into the Negev desert. It is easily explained like that. So if we look, Genesis 20:20 says "Now Abraham moved on from there into the region of the Negev and lived between Kadesh and Shur." Again in Genesis 21: 14 "Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the Desert of Beersheba." (The desert of Beersheba is in the northern part of the Negev desert). We also see that the boy grew up in Paran Genesis 21:20 "God was with the boy [Ishmael] as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. 21 While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt." (This makes perfect sense if it is located in the Sinai peninsula as Egypt is right next door to the west, hence a good reason why Ishmael got a wife from Egypt.) I hope that addresses your question sufficiently.
You may find the following helpful: 1) Search for Ananias of Shirak (in the following page): In there, there is a quote from him about Mecca: historyofislam.org/1-2-geography-and-climate/ 2) Also here, a tweet from Dr Sean Anthony about the same source on Mecca: mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1300249556458901504 Perhaps if we consider that in conjunction with Sebeos' mention of the Arab armies arising out of P'arhan and thomas Artsrunis association of Paran with Mecca, it may paint a slightly different picture (an alternative one to consider).
Your source Patricia Crone was reviewed by Robert Bertram Serjeant, reviewing the book in the Journal of the American Oriental Society, described it as a "confused, irrational and illogical polemic, further complicated by her misunderstanding of Arabic texts, her lack of comprehension of the social structure of Arabia, and twisting of the clear sense of other writings, ancient and modern, to suit her contentions."[14]
Red Sea is a waterway going along the coast of Arabia. It's cheaper to trade by sea than on the ground. So, it's confused, irrational and illogical to trade by the cheaper road. That's the way I'm reading you.
29:00 The name of the guy who have invented "Mecca".And as it is a novel creation, nobody knew (especially in Spain where the Byzantine-Arab chronicle is written in 741) where "Mecca" was. And as the Arabs ruled Iraq the *writer put it there as he knows that "Mecca" could not have been located in where was the Roman Christian Empire.* Whereas, actually, Mecca where Zubayr was, was in the Peninsula, not Iraq. The writer of the chronicle is mistaken ; he is very far away of the events.
Then can we say that Abd al-Malik invented "Mecca" (the present day relocated Mecca) after his general, al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf killed Ibn al-Zubayr in late 692? That would be around 50 years before the Byzantine-Arab chronicle of 741 mentions "Macca". Any reference as to the "Mecca where Zubayr was" being in the Peninsula? And where exactly?
@@elederiruzkin8835 I think you should ask Mel for all these (interesting) questions because it is his presentation, not mine. I have responses but I'm afraid I won't say more ;-)
@@user-yz1dl3eu8l Another good point. The writer of the chronicle isn't aware of the events on the ground and is disconnected from the true facts. Good eye @Aγαλμα
For the millionth time. Abraham DIDNT destroy idols in makkah. He built the qabah with his son. He destroyed the idols when he was young in his homeland
Al-Tabari clearly is not sure about what to make from the Abraham / Mecca distances. "Some also say that the ram's horn was seen hanging in the Ka'bah (which would suggest that the sacrifice took place near Mecca and must therefore have involved Ish- mael, since Isaac was in Syria). This is not a sensible argument either, because the horn could possibly have been brought from Syria to the Ka'bah and hung up there." archive.org/details/HistoryAlTabari40Vol/History_Al-Tabari_10_Vol/page/n537/mode/2up and a bit further he visits hagar archive.org/details/HistoryAlTabari40Vol/History_Al-Tabari_10_Vol/page/n539/mode/2up "when Abraham visited Hagar he was carried on al-Burāq, setting out early from Syria. He rested at midday in Mecca, then left Mecca and spent the night with his family in Syria. This was before Isaac was able to walk and take care of himself, at which point Abraham expected him to do his duty by worshipping his Lord and glorifying His sanctity."
@@gilbertjones9157 exactly! As i keep saying it is the NEW original. If they get 95% of muslims using their modern hafs they think they can claim anything else is photoshopped and all korans always had exactly what they have today including diacritical marks. The Topkapi and samarkand they will claim are photoshopped and you need to see the original which is identical to todays printed hafs.
So, Woolsey found a house or shop that said, "Abraham was here!"? You know that the "experts" have often been wrong, I know. There is no ziggurat mentioned in the stories of Abraham.
Al-Tabari also may provide evidence of Mecca being close to Harran archive.org/details/HistoryAlTabari40Vol/History_Al-Tabari_10_Vol/page/n539/mode/2up (Based on the Leiden Tabari) "when Abraham visited Hagar he was carried on al-Burāq, setting out early from Syria. He rested at midday in Mecca, then left Mecca and spent the night with his family in Syria. "
Also at archive.org/details/HistoryAlTabari40Vol/History_Al-Tabari_10_Vol/page/n537/mode/2up there is clearly confusion about distances between Mecca and other places. "Some also say that the ram's horn was seen hanging in the Ka'bah (which would suggest that the sacrifice took place near Mecca and must therefore have involved Ish-mael, since Isaac was in Syria). This is not a sensible argument either, because the horn could possibly have been brought fromSyria to the Ka'bah and hung up there."
WoW.. Good one. Thank you for sharing. So all these discussions shows that Islam is indeed ISLAM. I=Inaccurate S= Stories L= Legitimized by A= Abbasid M= Monarchy
This is interesting in that we can now also see a confusion between Ur of the Chaldeans (southern Mesopotamia bordering the Persian Gulf) with this northern Ur which is close to if not actually in the land of the Khaldians (people of their supreme god Khaldi) who formed a kingdom there between the 9th and 7th century B.C.
I gotta think that the association if Edessa with Ur is because it is near Harran where Abraham resettled. Over time Edessa would be associated with Ur because it is so close th where Terah died and much if Abraham's family lived. The point that many people in the 8th century BELIEVED that Ur was at is near Edessa is well taken. But, it is interesting that Mecca seems to be also a title meaning something like "main city". If one takes the archeology as a guide then Mecca would be west of the line between Southern Iraq and Southeast Turkey and Petra is right on the trade route west of the Euphrates on the southern leg of the early land based trade route.
I also think Ur of the Chaldeans is meant to refer to Southern Ur(where the Chaldeans were) from Northern Ur near Edessa and over time the two become conflated in the minds of people in Northern Syria and Southern Turkey. The battle description adopts the misconception of the 8th century but preserves the name Chaldeans to give some weight to the 8th century idea.
But the first mosque that points to saudi makkah is in Sindh, modern Pakistan, year 727 CE? The Abbassid were not there in the scene yet. Sindh in Pakistan was conquered by an ummayad general, Qasim?
They gots to keep the denaro rolling in. There was a bad aspect to giving alms I had learned about decades ago. Don't know if it is still the same way. Hope it is not.
@@didierfavre2356 You or I have miscommunication; I am persuaded that Abe was in Harah up north giving him access to the Ka'ab, a mobile tent arrangement. Of note: head water of the Two Rivers have proximity to two others with continence sound changes could be those described as being near the Garden adding weight to the narrative.
Warp Warp Warp....Hum sounds like the klaxon on Star Trek. Did they not have run ins with the Time bureau Time line cops? Hum, I wonder if we are dealing with them now? Mecca might just be moved back. Keep the maps they are Proof where it was, before, after, they moved it.
45:00 1) The Kaba as described in the Quran did not exist before Islam. 2); The Dome of the Rock ;3) The Spanish chronicle is mistaken : I explained why.4) All the different direction were directed towards the Hijaz.
The concept of PRAYING TOWARD a certain place and direction, is totally Pagan. If a person understands that God is everywhere, there is no POINT in praying in a certain direction. An IDOL holds a physical place on the earth. GOD does not.
Wrong. The concept of qibla is exclusively Judean/Jewish. It began during the babylonian captivity. The Judeans prayed towards Jerusalem (the temple was no longer). Just read the bible carefully to catch that.
The second concept that yahweh is not attached to any geographical location is also non-biblical. The bible is 100% clear as to yahweh's alleged territory of dominance.
@@humsterstories9736 So WHERE then is YHWHs domain? Show me. You can't. Because the Biblical concept of God is that he created the WHOLE universe and that he fills the whole universe. Omnipresence is the whole reason God hates the idols! Mecca ITSELF has become an IDOL for Muslims. When I pray TOWARD anything but the universal, omnipresent God, I am worshipping that which I pray TOWARD.
Correct but it is also to honor where he who tented himself, was born, lived and breathed his last with a Greek word teltelistie - Paid in full. I remember the price paid for me. It is the reason most alters are oriented to the direction of the morning sun and remember what the Roman guards saw.
@@gilbertjones9157 Because we are the BODY of Christ on earth, the living Church, our "altar" is within us. The Cross of Christ was the last altar ever needed. To revere one place called an "altar" outside of the individual, is paganism. When the veil was split during the crucifixion, the altar (presence of God) was made available to the whole world. When Jesus said, BEFORE he was crucified "Take up your cross and follow me", he was saying "make your life a sacrifice for me". The altars throughout time have been, after all, the place of sacrifice.
There is a difference between Makka is wheat Grain in Heat with Makan meaning Honey like wheat bread 🍞 and Honey 🍯 . Don't forget to eat your Weetabix with honey in the morning morning sun breaks out breakfast 😋
The Kaaba is the holy house of god , a cubic structure built by Abraham and Ishmael and it is in the city of Mecca which was founded around it. The text is clear answering a question that the prayers are not toward a specific direction , but toward a place . And yes when you are in Egypt as a country Mecca is in the east and alhira and Basra is south of Iraq are to East of northern Saudi Arabia where the Kaaba is Within the city of Mecca . Maybe the writer needed to be more specific and give the direction from each city in degrees or at least say south east , south west even if he lived in the 7th or 8 th century.
1:40 chapter 7 verse 24 does not mention mecca at all Nor does it say that Ibrahim destroyed the idols in mecca. 25:20 "but all muslims believe that". No. I've never even heard of this until you said it (I don't "believe" in Islam now, but I spent majority of my life as a Muslim). I was taught that Ibrahim was born in Iraq.
It's a second recession after it was pack up and that which would not fit was burned or if it broke in transit slapped on some Bitumen (no super glue or that gorilla stuff) or dig a hole at the base of dune and it's buried for several hundred years. Make sure you have all those guys who know were the water wells are, cuse the one you thought might be there may not be enough for the olephants.
@@pfanderfilms "Edgar Morina" left what is maybe an important comment. It's re. some 600s mentions of Mecca. And someone else, "John Poul," said maybe Mecca was deliberately put in its current place.
17:00 Jacob does not make a distinction between the Kaba and Jerusalem as he does not know what the Kaba is and where it is located.You're going too fast, you do not reflect. He just write what the Arabs says when they pray to the East : "We pray toward the Kaba".
As for the "what," Jacob does seem to know that both Jerusalem and the Ka'ba are "the patriarchal places of their races." So, the question would be, "what is exactly a patriarchal place?" I would also say that Jacob does make a disctintion between Jerusalem and the Ka'ba by calling them "places," in plural. As for the "where," do you see plausible that the Jacob who "saw with his own eyes" the Muslims or Arabs (mhaggriiye) praying in Egypt, didn't know what and where the Ka'ba was, and that "he just write what the Arabs says when they praty to the East," without further inquiring about it? Then, wouldn't have Jacob written "towards a certain unknown place to the East the Arabs call 'the Ka'ba'"? Couldn't it be said that, as Jacob doesn't locate Jerusalem, he doesn't locate the Ka'ba either, because he takes them for granted?
@@elederiruzkin8835 When Jacob write the word "Kaba", what does it means as place to him? Western Peninsula? What is "the patriarchal places of their races." when Arabs have internalized since one century and half that their father was Abraham (via Ishmael) like the Jews? (via Isaac) Does Jacob is aware of that? Those questions are not answered in his text. Yet they are primordial. Yes I see it (very) plausible as he gives no more information about it. He writes the name, the direction and nothing else.That he knows more is useless speculation. Jacob gives the true Jerusalem location: the East. He observes that the Arabs is the same direction with another name "Kaba" he knows no more, he just write what he as heard and saw: no more, no less.
41:35 The series of events: 1)False; 2) The Dome; 3) IA follow the tradition which is wrong.; 4) The Spanish chronicle is mistaken.There is no "Mecca" near Carrhae.
1) Jacob of Edessa doesn't say anything about the Ka'ba being in Petra orJerusalem. 2) Any reference about the Dome of the Rock named as the Masjid al-Haram? 4) I would qualify, there is no _city_ "Mecca" near Carrhae. But there could be the Ka'ba...
@@elederiruzkin8835 1) Yes. 2)Brain reference: l-bayta in the Quran is = al Masjid al-Haram= the Jewish Temple (beth, same word as in arabic which means "House") that was destroyed ("Haram", second sense of the word). In 637 what do the Arabs : they erect a "House " of prayer: The Dome is the culmination of that before the "Mecca" in Hijaz one " Ka'ba" which comes later. 3) No sources. ;-)
Interesting but questions remain. If the original Mecca was as you say, then why move the city so far down to the current location? Why not choose a new location for Mecca closer to the one you suggest as the original. Also in some presentation Dr Jay Smith says he thinks Islam was started in the 690s, stating the first minted coins as evidence, yet here you are saying there were Muslims before then, at least in the 680s. What is it to be? What about all the narratives of the life of the prophet? The slave he rescued, the followers, the journey of some followers to Abeysinia. I just can not bring myself to believe it was all made up. No way.
Yup better translations and deeper understanding of the root languages. We do a better job of knowing what our books say. We don't have red lines to stop it.
@@gilbertjones9157 you will have a red line in the judgement day That book will be rejected by the creator only 1 creator and you will all enter the Hellfire for eternity
24:00 "Mecca" did not exist before Islam, it is a post 632 creation. Check the Muslim sources to know who have invented it. It is (very) easy... An as it is a novel creation, nobody knew (especially in Spain where the Byzantine-Arab chronicle is written in 741) where "Mecca" was. And as the Arabs ruled Iraq the writer put it there as he knows that "Mecca" could not have been located in where was the Roman Christian Empire.
Sorry if I'm asking too much. Wouldn't the logic be the opposite? I mean, precisely because "Mecca" is a novel creation after 632 AD, as you say, everyone that mentions it after that date should know where Mecca was? We should also notice that there are more than 100 years between 632 and 741; enough time, I think, to spread the location of Mecca. BTW, who invented it, when invented it and why invented it. Thank you.
@@elederiruzkin8835 1) Informations do not spread quickly and with accuracy in those times. Some parts are lost, others confused. There is no map with "Mecca" in the Hijaz before the 9-10th c. It is not surprising when you deal with Antique history. 2)"100 years between 632 and 741" You think as a 21th c. man. ;-) 3) Hahaha! All of this has a response. But it is not the place to discuss them. ;-)
The palace of the fourteenth and last caliph of the Umayyad Caliphate, Marwan II (744-750 CE) was located over the ruins of the temple of the moon god Sin (c. 2000 BCE), at Harran, ancient Carrhae, near the "old Mecca" or, rather, the Ka'ba. Is it nor right?
Regarding the city of Ur. In the upper Mesopotemia region was the kingdom of Urartu, the ancestors of the modern Armenians, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartu. City of Edessa is located in the same region. The modern name of Edessa is the Urfa. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edessa
@@gilbertjones9157 Hellenes (Greeks), were in Anatolia Thrace and Constantinople for at least 2,500 years and longer, before their ethnic cleansing and pogroms by the Turks.
I would suggest increasing the playback speed. I guess most fluent speakers of English, when speaking about an intellectual topic that requires logical reasoning, speak more slowly than the speed at which most fluent listeners can comprehend such speech. It would take a fast speaker, bad audio, or a foreign language I'm learning, for me to go down to normal speed.
Hi jay , I would like to ask way Muslim think the bible come from God( injil) and u say it come from man And if it was God word the Quran say God preserved his books, it should also include the bible because Muslims believe the bible was God word till it got corrupted , if God preserved his books why are Muslim saying the bible is corrupted???..That mean Muslims do not trust God when he said he preserved his books . and Muslims should believe that God revealed 4 revelations
There is a difference between lawful and unlawful practice of lawfar Multiple personality psychopaths Simple vacation regarding Devil lawfar Ur Du Awaa Elements in space and air better known as gas gasping for pure spirit of la meaning love law
Kaba or Khaba meaning Hallucination or a dream Kaba meaning Covered Grave Dwelling Kaba Grave Associated with a teacher of law & love where the Judiciary of 🇮🇶 Iraq & iran & Romans asked for Hussain or Hazrath or Nazareth Jesus for Guidance in injustice Practice of Mohammadan Roman Bedouins
I see flocks, goats, sheep, cattle, grazing all mentioned in the Hadiths and the Sirat Rasul. I don’t see a lot of fertile grazing land around Mecca, certainly not enough to support cattle and sheep,
U are right...lol
May be b a n a n a?
@@gemmarozario84 No the elephant got to the groves first.
Correct. I was in Eastern Saudi Arabia. Even the food for the camels has to arrive by ship. The only animals I seen were camels. No more than three in total.
The belief system did not start in the vicinity of Jeddah, Medina, Mecca. There is no vegetation capable of supporting the story, or the number of people before the invention of oil fuelled transport.
Thats because they grazed the land to barrenness, and sandstorms buried the rest, lol!
This is BRILLIANT work Mel and Jay! Thank you. And DUH! I need to subscribe to your channel Mel! Sneakers Corner, here I come!
Thanks for a great, well researched video. PLEASE turn up the volume on your next video. Thanks again!
When did a rigorous academic and rational approach to study become a hate crime that wider society wants to supress? I heard you described as Islamophobes when Islam actually owes you a massive debt of gratitude for all the work you have done.
Very informative video. Thank you for sharing.
Thank you for this informative video. I also like the "con-fusion" pun.
Reading comments while an avante guard chef was cooking up new stuff. Fusion buns. Yup with algae bubbles and other illusions. Illusions, hum.
I see a possible reason that the original Ur (of 2000 BC) might have got shifted from the southern Iraqi location where HIstorians place it today. To this location up in modern-day Turkey almost 3000 years later in the 8th Century. That is because of its proximity to Harran. Because this is where the BIblical account states that Abraham (from Ur ) and his family stop quite for some time, and it is where Abraham's father (Terah) dies, and so would be buried in this area (Gen 11:31-32). It is also in this same area that the rest of Abraham's immediate family (such as his brother Nahor) remain and where Abraham sends his servant to get a wife for Isaac (Gen 24:10; 25:20). In fact, another brother of Abraham (who seems to die before they leave Ur) was called Haran (Gen 11: 27-28) which could be where Harran gets its name. So if Abraham's father is buried in this area, might that have got confused over time with Abraham himself? Also given that Abraham from Ur (before he left for Canaan) lived in this area. Then his family (also from Ur) continued to live there for several generations afterward. Might this be a reason that the original site for Ur got mixed up with where the family from Ur ended up? Any confusion would also useful to the Ummayad's version of ensuring that important locations of their theological history are located within their realm of power. An idea that Abbasid's seem to borrow for their own relocation of important theological sites.
Fascinating information! Such a shame that this has not found its way into the mainstream yet.
That's ok. We need to thoroughly peer review it first. I'm not perfect, so any inadvertent errors will need to be first excised before it is set for the wider audience. But it will go mainstream if it is hitting on the truth as the truth can't be hidden.
Sooo going to enjoy this video! Friday night here in New Zealand, so relaxing after a busy week to unwind and watch this and have a few light beers.
@tigerarmyrule So true!
Someday people will accept that Islam is man made religion. Thx Mel and Jay.
@tim hamat 30% of all Muslim born in US are leaving Islam. Mohammad Hijab confirmed 33:56 Al-Lah prays. Salafists Farid leaks, Hijab and Dr.Yasir Qadhi placed bombs under the fundaments of Islam (standard narrative has holes). 37 different Arabic Qurans. Awful Hadiths and Tafsirs. Etc etc.. TH-cam and the Internet helping that people open their eyes about the cult of Islam and you can't stop it.
The quantity of follower will not change that Abraham grave was not in Mecca. That is the fact.
@tim hamat Who bank rolled the construction? Saudis. Not locals or converts. Even to prominent Journalists in SA have asked for changes in the practices and the need for a 'clean' Qur'an. Why? Things may change faster than you are able to grasp.
@tim hamat I admit one point. Truth will never fade away. One can be in absolute denial about it, oppress any beholder of it, kill many of its beholders, terrorize the others. It's being done now. Half of Iranian are now out of Islam according to a recent survey. I saw a part of a livestream with AP and an Iranian reading that survey. The Iranian guy (a sceptic) said that he has often to handle people who wants to decorate trees with mullahs. I would not be surprised if other Islamic countries were in that shape. Truth will never fade away.
To have it, one needs personal opinions, freedom of opinions, personal thinking or truth can't be reached by the individuals.
Kill it and your country decays. Individuals cease to be responsible for anything in that country. Things can only worsen when its inhabitants are only pawns of the power that be.
@Merder munevver All you can prove is that it is man's interpretation of the divine archetypes woven into the fabric of all creation.
Here's quote from the paper on Ur on page 2 in the first paragraph -- "Sumerian Ur is never called “Ur of the Chaldees” in any of the
numerous references to Ur in the cuneiform tablets. The designation of Abraham’s Ur as
“of the Chaldees” distinguishes it from the other cities called Ur, including Sumerian Ur
located about a thousand miles from Haran"
Alasdair Maclean Interesting. I wonder if there has been much archaeological work around Edessa which might shed some light on its traditional connection with the city of Ur.
@@ekondigg6751 According to the article the Ur of Abraham is today's Sanliurfa (Urfa) just a few miles north-west of Harran. Also referred to as Edessa at other points in history.
Tablets found in Ugarit (Syria) place the merchants from the city of Ura under the rulership of the Hittite king. In Akkadian, the city is called Ura but then you say it in Hebrew you drop the 'a' at the end of the word. The kingdom of Hittites is north of Ugarit into Turkey.
There has been quite a lot of archaeological work done, but mostly in other ancient cities in the region.
Journal of Near Eastern Studies (Vol. 17, p. 28, 1958)
www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdf/10.1086/371420
@@alimaclean5777 Thanks
12:30: Jacob of Edessa. One does not know when Jacob (d.708) see the prayer of the muhajirun in Alexandria: plausibly 660-70 . Note that Hira was not called "Kufa" yet.
"Your question is vain ... for it is not to the south that the
Jews pray, nor either do the Muslims (mhaggriiye). The
Jews who live in Egypt, and also the Muslims there, as I
saw with my own eyes and will now set out for you, prayed
to the east, and still do, both peoples-the Jews towards
Jerusalem and the Muslims towards the Ka'ba. And those
Jews who are to the south of Jerusalem pray to the north;
and those in the land of Babel, in Hira and in Basra, pray to
the west. And also the Muslims who are there pray to the
west, towards the Ka'ba; and those who are to the south of
the Ka'ba pray to the north, towards that place. So from all
this that has been said, it is clear that it is not to the south
that the Jews and Muslims here in the regions of Syria pray,
but towards Jerusalem or the Ka'ba, the patriarchal places
of their races", Hoyland, Seeing... 1997. p.565, sqq.
"The patriarchal places of their races".....seems significant! The comparison of the Muslims and the Jews ...and their apparent 'dispersion' from their ancestral 'places' is also interesting.
Great work Mel and Jay truth is for everyone... these new finds help understand perspective according to TRIBE'S and Bloodlines.
Why is Mecca not mentioned until almost the end of the quran? Sura 48 is actually the 111th sura. Why did he wait so long to mention it, if it was so important? A place where all the BS began.
The looming problem for both Mecca and Medina is that there are other places with those names. There is a Median in Marrakesh, one in Iraq and in the Hajaz. The Mecca, Becca is not just a rhyme. I wonder how may are buried under the sands in North Africa, Iraq, Tashkent and the Gobi?
Nothing like an Irishman to talk about Islam.
Honestly, it's all the terrific YT gang. What a bunch of smart guys❣❣❣❣❣.
Sure they (all the usual suspects) managed to have me change my outlook on humanity.👏👏👏👏👏
(❣🇮🇪) LOTS OF LOVE &RESPECT from ITALY.
Guys - great job in His service. I'm just wondering how the exposure of this stuff can go out to the Muslims who will not believe it anyway (at least most won't) but how can this stuff be made available to governments especially in the West. This is the age of information and the one with the most information usually wins. Sooner or later, we've got to start thinking on those lines.
desperation at it's all level. even the old testament mentioned mecca
@Qui Creva Sp proof it was near Jerusalem.
@@dawahchl4182 just like both the OT and the NT is supposed to have mentioned Muhammad, is it? The desperation comes from you Muslims trying to read your nonsense into our Biblical texts. Even Muhammad was one confused scrambled-brained individual, alleged to have mistaken the Satanic Verses for divine revelation. Whoa! Not so good prophet material I would think considering he was Allah's favorite boy.
@@richardarthur7864 both OT and NT prophecized Muhammad pbuh but you are blind follower who accept nothing but lies. your wishful thinking of someone dying for your sins is deluding you. the old testament also says God is unseen, immortal, he is not a man and no dies for your sins. you rejected all of those verses and you follow a book written by anonymous people told you God committed suicide for your sins.
@@dawahchl4182 You are the reason why ISLAM needs to be irradicated from the West. The lies of Islam started 1400 years and continue to this day. Your lies have been debunked time and time again but you are so brainwashed that you will still keep repeating your nonsense time and time again. How will you ever change? The West is fooling itself by bringing in people who will never change. And of course, not changing is one thing - worse is when you brainwashed individuals think you are doing favors for Allah by bringing your violence to the streets (have we not seen this already?) of the West but also to your own countries - and guess what, your Book of Lies instructs you to do so. I'm just wondering about the self-proclaimed Muhammad prophesy in the Bible. Was God really intending to bring in a prophet who for the most part is an obnoxious, sexually perverted thug? I think not.
Great discussion..regards from Indonesia..
Mel and Jay another great day at the office just like the Koran has been exposed so is Islamic traditions of Mecca great stuff , Brian from Dublin Ireland
It’s sad that it’s taken 1400 years for this kind of information to be widely known. Absolutely brutal!
Excellent work
Adam was 90' tall...come on guys, everyone knows that, lol!
Have u seen his tomb..?
Its 220 feet long n found in several cities.. lol Islam is false.
Christ is Lord.
@@francisgan4848. Yes hid tomb is long, but why assume that that is his length?
Its possible, that graves were not dug deep, and what you see in length, is actually bodies laid head to toe, to head and toe and so on. Eg Adam a.s was no 90 ft guy but a standard sized man.
Asif Makki you check out the reference on Adam being 90” feet tall 🤔🤔🤔
@@mitchpeter5718. I have read it, and the is even claims of Adams footprint its big (I think in Sri Lanka).
Even another prophet(I forgot his name) has a massive leg, the length of a mountain.
But all I say, is it all could be false stories. The best way too Lead people in life as false thinkers.
Also I know bible does talk on giants, but that cannot be presumed to mean large jumbo humans(but I cannot really say bcoz I have not studied them bible verses).
On top of that, the are quite a lot of giant beings(claimed) to be fossalized amongst landscapes across the world.
Yet I keep an open mind on photo evidences of mountains that REALLY do look like jumbo beings (they are on utube).
Ha 😂 Yes I've recently read this Hadith. Allah created Adam 90 feet tall and after the fall, man has gradually become "shorter" since. What a load of cock-winkle 🐓🐓
😂😂😂
Spot on, as always !
Thanks Odon!
Bonjour Odon. Je trouve qu'ils fournissent un excellent travail et je me demande s'ils sont au courant de la thèse du Père Gallez.
@@didierfavre2356 c'est en cours. Je discute avec Mel, on doit s'organiser une discussion sur sa chaîne bientôt. Ca va être passionnant
17:31 Jacob does not mention "Mecca" simply because nobody knows it at that time since "Mecca" did not exist yet.
I think Mel meant Jacob doesn't mention what the location of the Ka'ba was back then.
He uses the term "Mecca" in multiple senses along the presentation which need to be contextualized, yes.
@@elederiruzkin8835 Mel (unfortunately) takes serious topics and does not addressed them as a scholar. He lacks training.
What great work you are doing Mel, excellent research.
32:06 Jacob does not mention "Mecca" simply because *he does not know* that "Mecca" exist.Nobody knows it at that time since "Mecca" did not exist yet. Why Jacob would not have mentioned "Mecca" if he knew it? *Why Mel doesn't he ask himself the question?*
Jacob doesn't call the place "Mecca", he calls it "the Ka'ba." The question is, why the Byzantine-Arab chronicle calls it "Mecca." It seems as a result of the con-fusion of places due to the relocation and renaming...
Excellent material. Whether Mel is right about all the details or not, one thing is clear: the modern Mecca did not exist at the time the Quran was written.
Nice to hear this kind of thing, with a good amount of facts.
On the location of the city of Ur, it's easy to understand why people thought that Ur should be near Aram Naharaim because that's what the Bible seems to imply: In Gen 11:28 we read "Haran died during his father's lifetime in the land of his birth, that is, in Ur of the Chaldeans." and in Gen 11:31 "Terah took his son Abram, his grandson Lot (Haran's son), and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram's wife, and they journeyed together from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to the land of Canaan. But when they had gone as far as Haran, they settled there". Later, in Gen 24:4 Abraham instructs his servant "you are to go to my country and to my family and acquire a wife for my son Isaac." The servant goes to Aram-naharaim (Aram of the two rivers Euphrates and Tigris) in Gen 24:10. He doesn't go to the Ur that was discovered in the C19th near Basra. Instead he goes to roughly the same area as is mentioned here. To reconcile that I had always assumed that Abraham, having grown up in a nomadic family, was simply born near the city of Ur because his family had wandered all the way over there, but that his family originally came from Aram-Naharaim. Maybe there always was another Ur in Aram after all? That would make more sense to the Biblical narrative, and lend weight to the apparent tradition that Edessa was the Ur of Abraham. This is, of course, speculation, but maybe warrants some investigation even if it's not directly in the line of discovering the real origins of Islam.
Very interesting talks.
God bless you Mel for all the hard work you have put in in exposing the truth.
Excellent stuff Mel and Jay! This discussion brought many of the dots together for me as I study this. One big question I have as I watch your stuff and Dan Gibson's stuff is has anyone done research or written any good stuff of the theological and historical significance of the Kaaba? If the black stone was in Petra as Dan said, and then moved to the present Mecca, it seems to be of extreme importance. From my Christian perspective, it sure looks like idol worship to me. It also appears to be so central to the Hajj. Where the black stone is where one needs to pray to? I like Dan Gibson's work on this. Another question I have is hard to frame. I'm wondering if there is a historical Muhammad that has been distorted through the political processes of the first two hundred years of Islam? Keep up the good work. Can we find the "historical" Muhammad?
See one of the earlier videos, we looked into the historical Muhammad.
@@Speakers154 Like the many Medians we will find that there have been a lot of Muhammads leading folks here or there.
Redaction & fusion (of many different concepts into one) seems to be one of the common methods employed by central Asian origin empires.
Kushans (who were central Asians) did the same to Buddhism by turning Buddha into a Shakya(Scythian). Ashvaghosha wrote a new biography of Buddha under Kushan patronage. 4th Buddhist council was held under Kushan patronage.
Kushans also tried to mess with Hinduism by claiming that Rama's son Kusha is the originator of Kushans.
Similarly, Abbasids (who seem to be central Asians) redacted and fused concepts & myths of Islam. This seems to be a common tactic used by central Asian origin empires to take control of their (non-central Asian) populace.
Wow, that's interesting stuff I hadn't heard before.
No the idea that Kushans were a foreign Central Asian dynasty or were related to the supposed Chinese Yeuzhi is a false fabrication made up by Eurocentrist scholars whom intentionally misinterpreted Chinese texts using wrong translations in order to further attribute a major Indic indigenous economic world power and dynasty to foreign origins just like they did with the false Aryan migration theory.
A Kushan is the exact same as a Kushite, the ending prefix designate the same meaning. The Kushites were an ancient Indian Indus origin peoples that settled and colonized the East Africa region as stated by Herodotus.
The Kushan dynasty had strong trade and commercial links to the East Africa region following up in this, and it's highly unlikely that illiterate random backwards tent dwelling Central Asian tribes would or would set up such networks, let alone be able to waltz into the India region and just set up a major commercial dynasty just like that, which is incredibly impluasible.
And considering horse cavalry warfare didn't work in India region, or India was not conducive to horse cavalry movement as even Alexander the great couldn't even cross the Hindu Kush mountains or South Asian deserts on his own or bypass them; and even the Mongols had trouble doing it also and their bows and arrows stopped working in the tropical monsoon lit environment of India and Alexander being stronger then the Yeuzhi couldn't even defeat or control a tiny Indic Kingdom, indicates Kushans being Central Asian foreign origin is a hoax fabrication.
@@Speakers154 its false and a lot of it is outdated debunked info
@@sharrilhasin9600 Kushans were central Asians. Indian texts also confirm this view. The Indian Hindu Puraanas and Indian (Kashmiri) History Rajatarangini also say this. Indian Hindu Puraanas call them Turushkas (Turks or Shweta Huna i.e. white huns). Chinese called them Yuezhi. They were driven out of Mongolia by Xiongnu (another Mongolian tribe) in 250 BCE. (Same time central Asian Parthian also entered Iran).
Yes, cavalry was not conducive to India, so Kushan presence was mostly in North-West India (today's Pakistan & Afghanistan) & some areas of gangetic plain. (Saketa) along with Kashmir. Their presence in gangetic plain & Kashmir was eliminated by Indians (my research says that this Indian freedom struggle was led by Emperor Vikrama. Look up, the Vikram Samvat date of Kashmir) Kushan remnants continued to exist in North-West India (today's Pakistan & Afghanistan) as Western Satraps. They controlled the silk route and ports of Gujarat & Sindh. They became vassals of Parthians & Sassanid (Iran). Western Satraps collapsed in 450 CE when Gupta empire spread.
Kushan reformation of Buddhism
(250 BCE to 350 CE):
1) New bio of Buddha by Ashwaghosha (using the already popular Indian legends like Ramayana & Mahabharata)
2) 4th Buddhist council held by Kanishka in Kashmir according to Xuan Tsang.
3) Concept of Abhidharmas (New rules or New religion) introduced
4) extensive commentaries (Mahavibhasa) to give new meanings to Old terms.
5) Buddha as Shakyamuni (Scythian hermit)
6) Buddha was made to originate in Ikshavaku dynasty (same dynasty as Hindu Rama because central asian Kushans claimed family connection to Indian Rama & Indian Buddha).
7) renewed Buddhist evangelism: spreading Buddhism to China, middle-east & Greece. Lokakshema & Kumarajiva were both Kushans (Central Asians). They reworked the Chinese Buddhism completey through translations.
8) Language of Buddhism was changed from Pali to Gandhara (& Sanskruth). Because Kushans (and their remnants Western Satraps) were primarily situated in Afghanistan (Gandhara).
9) New scriptures to support these new ideas:
a) Sadh Darma Pundarika Sutram (Lotus Sutra)
b) Lalita Vistara
10) A new 'Era' called Shakya (Scythian) Era was started by western satraps in 50 CE.
11) Huge statues of Buddha popularized. (Later, they broke these huge statues when they became Muslims).
Compare this with Abbassid reformation of Islam
(725 CE to 1525 CE):
1) Turning Mohammed into one single person from honorific title.
2) New bio (Sira) of Mohammed (by Ibn Hisham) (Mohammed portrayed as a caravan raider because Abbasids were raiders from Central Asia).
3) Compilation of traditions (Sunna) concerning Mohammed by Al Bhukhari (of Bukhara, Uzbekistan in Central Asia).
4) New commentaries(Tafsir) on Quran by Al Tabari.
5) Redoing Dome of Rock & Al Aqsa mosque by Al Mansur (Abbassid King) (source: Ibn Kathir)
6) Redoing Mecca by Al Mansur (Abbassid King) and fixing Qibla (prayer direction) to Mecca in Arabia.
7) Shortening Shahada (Islamic oath) from 3 lines to 2 lines.
8) Concept of Sharia (Islamic Law)
9) Rewriting the history of Ummayyad. Introducing the idea of Rashidun period (4 rightly guided caliphs) to demonize Ummayyads. (Source: Chinese chronicles).
10) concept of Ahruf & Qiraat (Diacritical mark differences in Quran used to give new meaning to the words in Quran).
11) Concept of Abrogation of some Quran verses by other Quran verses.
12) A new epoch of 'Hijra' was introduced into Islamic calendar.
13) Breaking statues (particularly of Buddha).
@@trira1171 Wrong there is zero indication that Kushans were Central Asians, the idea they had anything to do with the Yeuzhi of Chinese accounts (which is basis of them being Central Asians) was a fabrication made up by Europeans and British and planted by them to attribute a major commercial dynasty to foreign origins.
There is no ancient Indian text anything suggesting they Kushans were foreign, stop making stuff up. The idea they were foreign Central Asians Is based on false mistranslations and deliberately mis interpretated vague texts from Chinese accounts that have been shown to be wrong recently. The supposed Kashmiri accounts are all false and have been fabricated and planted by the British, just like they did with the Aryan migration which has been proven to be false.
A Kushan is the same as a "Kushite", the only difference being that the "-an" and "-ite" which are actually suffixes indicating the same thing, but does not prove they were actually different. The ancient Kushites were an Indus Valley Indian origin people that migrated to East Africa and colonized the region and were behind the Axum civilization in East Africa and played a major role in the formation of ancient Egyptian civilization according to and stated directly by ancient Greek accounts as stated by writers such as Herodotus.
So the Kushans obviously were descended from the ancient Kushites from Indus Valley as the "Kush" subject indicates, but the Kushans had strong trade, linguistic and commercial links to the East Africa reigon as expected but there is zero evidence random Turkic or illiterate nomadic Central Asian people had which just how much bullshit the Europeans have fabricated in creating this false association. It's also highly implausible to impossible that illiterate powerless backwards nomads could suddenly waltz into the ancient India region considering that horses cavalry movement and warfare didn't work or could not be done in the Hindu-Kush and Karakorum mountain range complexes and Alexander the great had trouble defeating a tiny insignificant Indic kingdom whom was stronger then the alleged Central Asian ancestors of the Kushans and had stronger numbers and resources supporting him.
The Kushan empire was not based in Pakistan-Afghanstan, it was based in Northern and Western India and now you are showing you don't know much about this subject and are simply repeating hearsay because you are a typical ignorant indiot coolie whom simply repeats stuff without an ounce of critical thinking and zero original thought. Pakistan and Afghanistan are the regions with deserts and mountains that are impassable for horse and cavalry movement due to inhospitable deserts and near impassable mountain range complexes, as Alexander the great learned and wrote about you ignoramus.
The Kushans were definitely not Turks or had anything to do with Turks. "Huna's" were not Turks, and Turks were not called "Huna's" in Vedic accounts, which is something you are making up. "Greeks" were called Huna's by Armenians and Persians and others but not Turks.
There is a paper published recently that shows that the entire Kushan-Yeuzhi Central Asian association link is false and mistranslated but there is zero evidence that the Kushans were foreign at all and everything suggesting so has been fabricated and made up.
www.academia.edu/28643805/Kushan_were_not_Yehzhi-based_on_New_Discoveries_and_Reinterpretation_from_Chinese_Sources
Only suggestion: when discussing 7th century events, it is probably more accurate to refer to Hagrites, Saracens, or Ishmaelites as did the contemporary non-Arab authors did.
No 'Muslims' until ~690 AD at the earliest.
Makes sense and connects all the dots
Audio output needs boosting jay
Very well said. Thank you sir.
Mel, Just one of many many things, have you noticed that ALL mentions of Becca, Mecca and the Kabah were in Surah's that were produced in Medina ? The one about the FIRST house for mankind in BECCA just after he changed the prayer direction............ the one about Mecca .....after He caused to overcome them JUST after the treaty of Hudabaya ??
I don't trust the classification as "Medina" but it is interesting that these group that way.
Multiple Medians, even one in Marrakesh. Like the Rain man said, lots of face cards; lots of Medians.
30:19 If "Mecca" existed in Iraq, It is *impossible* that no one has ever heard of this city: it is an area that has been known since Alexander, where the Greeks settled and whose topography the Romans know very well. No one in the sources has ever heard of Mecca in the Peninsula or Iraq.
Aren't you suppossing that "Mecca" was then known as a city?
Mel just says that it was a place (on the doorsteps of Edessa [=Ur (of the Chaldeans)], a battlefield somewhere between Ur and Carrhae.
Maybe after it was invented and relocated it was given the status of "city"... (Just guessing).
@@elederiruzkin8835 More a place than a city but a city too ;-) Remove Iraq/Turkey from your mind about "Mecca". Mel is dreaming.
This is a very good point. If Mecca did exist, how come there is no mention of it in any of the sources in Iraq? As you mentioned, this was a place that was thoroughly well known by the Greeks and Romans. Yet there is no mention of it in their sources.
A hypothetical explanation could be the city had another name if Mecca is the city of Muhammad and couldn't, therefore, exist before this man was known. So, the silence of the Greeks and Romans who did not care especially about the local belief system is explained. Then, this city was made up out of nothing.
@@didierfavre2356 I would tell more or less the same thing here: It is rather implausible that such a discourse (in the Quran) about Christianity and the status of Jesus as a prophet and not being the son of God could be "proclaimed" publicly in Iraq as Iraq is totally Christianized since 200 AD, without being noted by other people in the sources (scribal or inscriptions). Same in all inhabited part of the Peninsula: Najran, Yemen, the East Coast and even less Syria-Palestine under Roman Christian rule since the 4th c.
Basically first qibla was directed towards Masjid Al Haram (Sacred Place of Peace) which was first outside of the Petra.
35:00 No relation with Carrhae.The masjid al haram (in this inscription) is plausibly the Dome of the Rock.
I'd agree. It is just the date is a few years later than expected. The whole story would make more sense if the Masjid of new Mecca was built in the 750s.
@@Speakers154 There was a "new"/invented Mecca but in the Hijaz before the Abbasids. Curious that you do not see who have "find" it. Read Tabari carefully.
Thank you Mel, thank you Jay.
Urfa, isnt it? Abraham might be from that location too actually, not from senaar/shinar/sumer.
This is important....there are hadiths in Sunnah that say Mohammad told them which three mosques they could go to, because the person reporting the hadith said they asked him, one was Al Aqsa.....Al Aqsa was built in and called Al Aqsa in 705, a full 70+ years after mohammad died. So how did the dead guy walk around telling people to go Al Aqsa? More than one mohammad......
6:50 Mecca? There's no "Mecca" as the traditional account recount it before the taking over by Arabs in 632-640. And as Muhammad is inseparable of it in the traditional account, there is no Muhammad.There was no Muhammad proclaiming its anti Christian Quran in Petra as Petra had a bishopric since 420 AD. Same in Hira, Jerusalem, Northern Iraq. There is another explanation. It need to set aside Muhammad that you still keep.
Lots of Meccas just like lot of Becies (Becca) just another title added to the local names. Becca? Mecca?!? We don't need no Becca! Cut! You did it again that's Badges. Not Becca. Sorry she always on my mind.
Excellent work! The location of Mecca is spot-on! It is between the Tigris & Euphrates rivers near Gogapili-tepi the archeological site going back to the ice age. Most bible nerds interested in the end times know this to the site to the seat of political babylon and Mecca to be that of Religions Babylon (i.e. harlot riding the beast), after the power center of the planet has traveled its full course around the globe overtaking the Americas in a somewhat distant future!
31:15 And as Mecca is a novel creation, nobody knew ( *especially in Spain* where the Byzantine-Arab chronicle is written in 741) where "Mecca" was. And as *the Arabs ruled Iraq the writer put it there* as he knows that "Mecca" *could not have been located in where was the Roman Christian Empire.* Whereas, actually, Mecca where Zubayr was, was in the Peninsula, not Iraq. The writer of the chronicle is mistaken ; he is very far away of the events.
Al-Tabari clearly is not sure about what to make from the Abraham / Mecca distances. "Some also say that the ram's horn was seen hanging in the Ka'bah (which would suggest that the sacrifice took place near Mecca and must therefore have involved Ish-
mael, since Isaac was in Syria). This is not a sensible argument either, because the horn could possibly have been brought from
Syria to the Ka'bah and hung up there." archive.org/details/HistoryAlTabari40Vol/History_Al-Tabari_10_Vol/page/n537/mode/2up and a bit furrther he visits hagar archive.org/details/HistoryAlTabari40Vol/History_Al-Tabari_10_Vol/page/n539/mode/2up "when Abraham visited Hagar he was carried on al-Burāq, setting out early from Syria. He rested at midday in Mecca, then left Mecca and spent the night with his family in Syria. This was before Isaac was able to walk and take care of himself, at which point Abraham expected him to do his duty by worshipping his Lord and glorifying His sanctity."
Still, whats the likelihood of a site full of idols staying in the heart of the christianized roman empire? With none of the 300+ idols with greek or latin (latinized) names?
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pre-Islamic_Arabian_deities
P.s. except qaaba is at petra perhaps
Thank you very much for yet another insightful video about the origins of islam. :) I have another interesting point related to this explanation which could be looked into, could "Harran (Carrhae)" be the same place as "Haram" in "masjid al haram". The word "Harran" could have developed into "Haram" in the above name giving rise to the idea that Abraham was from Harran. Could "Harran" be the same as the Biblical "Paran"?, if that is true, it would make perfect sense to say that Abraham had something to do with "Harran (Paran)" whilst the muslims mixed up the word "Harran" with "Haram" leading to the idea that Abraham visited the Kaaba in the Masjid al Haram in the modern day Mecca. This development of "Harran" to "Haram" would also make sense phonetically because open-mouthed sounds (in this case "palato-velar") usually tend to get converted to closed-mouth ones ("labial sounds") over time (though it depends).
I will leave the linguistic question to the able linguists amongst our viewers, for example, Peter. Paran/Pharan is in the Sinai peninsula; I think it would be a reasonable alternative name for the Hegev desert, though it is probably a smaller area than it. If we look at the Biblical account, Abraham is already re-settled in Bethsheba in southern Israel, so the journey into Paron is just south into the Negev desert. It is easily explained like that. So if we look, Genesis 20:20 says "Now Abraham moved on from there into the region of the Negev and lived between Kadesh and Shur." Again in Genesis 21: 14 "Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the Desert of Beersheba." (The desert of Beersheba is in the northern part of the Negev desert).
We also see that the boy grew up in Paran
Genesis 21:20 "God was with the boy [Ishmael] as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. 21 While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt." (This makes perfect sense if it is located in the Sinai peninsula as Egypt is right next door to the west, hence a good reason why Ishmael got a wife from Egypt.)
I hope that addresses your question sufficiently.
You may find the following helpful:
1) Search for Ananias of Shirak (in the following page): In there, there is a quote from him about Mecca:
historyofislam.org/1-2-geography-and-climate/
2) Also here, a tweet from Dr Sean Anthony about the same source on Mecca:
mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1300249556458901504
Perhaps if we consider that in conjunction with Sebeos' mention of the Arab armies arising out of P'arhan and thomas Artsrunis association of Paran with Mecca, it may paint a slightly different picture (an alternative one to consider).
Your source Patricia Crone was reviewed by Robert Bertram Serjeant, reviewing the book in the Journal of the American Oriental Society, described it as a "confused, irrational and illogical polemic, further complicated by her misunderstanding of Arabic texts, her lack of comprehension of the social structure of Arabia, and twisting of the clear sense of other writings, ancient and modern, to suit her contentions."[14]
Red Sea is a waterway going along the coast of Arabia. It's cheaper to trade by sea than on the ground. So, it's confused, irrational and illogical to trade by the cheaper road. That's the way I'm reading you.
29:00 The name of the guy who have invented "Mecca".And as it is a novel creation, nobody knew (especially in Spain where the Byzantine-Arab chronicle is written in 741) where "Mecca" was. And as the Arabs ruled Iraq the *writer put it there as he knows that "Mecca" could not have been located in where was the Roman Christian Empire.* Whereas, actually, Mecca where Zubayr was, was in the Peninsula, not Iraq. The writer of the chronicle is mistaken ; he is very far away of the events.
Then can we say that Abd al-Malik invented "Mecca" (the present day relocated Mecca) after his general, al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf killed Ibn al-Zubayr in late 692? That would be around 50 years before the Byzantine-Arab chronicle of 741 mentions "Macca". Any reference as to the "Mecca where Zubayr was" being in the Peninsula? And where exactly?
@@elederiruzkin8835 I think you should ask Mel for all these (interesting) questions because it is his presentation, not mine. I have responses but I'm afraid I won't say more ;-)
@@user-yz1dl3eu8l Another good point. The writer of the chronicle isn't aware of the events on the ground and is disconnected from the true facts. Good eye @Aγαλμα
For the millionth time. Abraham DIDNT destroy idols in makkah. He built the qabah with his son. He destroyed the idols when he was young in his homeland
Islam will soon be the theological equivalent of cosplay.
How does this Ur, Haran discussion effect the Abraham story in the Bible,even when it happened some thousand years earlier?
Al-Tabari clearly is not sure about what to make from the Abraham / Mecca distances. "Some also say that the ram's horn was seen hanging in the Ka'bah (which would suggest that the sacrifice took place near Mecca and must therefore have involved Ish-
mael, since Isaac was in Syria). This is not a sensible argument either, because the horn could possibly have been brought from
Syria to the Ka'bah and hung up there."
archive.org/details/HistoryAlTabari40Vol/History_Al-Tabari_10_Vol/page/n537/mode/2up and a bit further he visits hagar archive.org/details/HistoryAlTabari40Vol/History_Al-Tabari_10_Vol/page/n539/mode/2up "when Abraham visited Hagar he was carried on al-Burāq, setting out early from Syria. He rested at midday in Mecca, then left Mecca and spent the night with his family in Syria. This was before Isaac was able to walk and take care of himself, at which point Abraham expected him to do his duty by worshipping his Lord and glorifying His sanctity."
I expevt some mullah say "well whateber about not being the original location we have clear evidence it is the NEW original location of Mecca"! 😉
New and improved version of the once delivered final version after the latest recension of your local touresta book.
@@gilbertjones9157 exactly! As i keep saying it is the NEW original. If they get 95% of muslims using their modern hafs they think they can claim anything else is photoshopped and all korans always had exactly what they have today including diacritical marks. The Topkapi and samarkand they will claim are photoshopped and you need to see the original which is identical to todays printed hafs.
So, Woolsey found a house or shop that said, "Abraham was here!"? You know that the "experts" have often been wrong, I know. There is no ziggurat mentioned in the stories of Abraham.
Al-Tabari also may provide evidence of Mecca being close to Harran archive.org/details/HistoryAlTabari40Vol/History_Al-Tabari_10_Vol/page/n539/mode/2up (Based on the Leiden Tabari) "when Abraham visited Hagar he was carried on
al-Burāq, setting out early from Syria. He rested at midday in Mecca, then left Mecca and spent the night with his family in Syria. "
Also at archive.org/details/HistoryAlTabari40Vol/History_Al-Tabari_10_Vol/page/n537/mode/2up there is clearly confusion about distances between Mecca and other places. "Some also say that the ram's horn was seen hanging in the Ka'bah (which would suggest that the sacrifice took place near Mecca and must therefore have involved Ish-mael, since Isaac was in Syria). This is not a sensible argument either, because the horn could possibly have been brought fromSyria to the Ka'bah and hung up there."
All important historic settlements have serious archeology like the cities in Greece, Rome and thepther of all cities
The mother of all cities Jerusalem. Nring on the diggings of modern daecca to prove its history
@@rajdialnandram5676 Nring? Daecca? Mecca or Mekka?
19:00 Ur did not exist any more since ages at that time. Was totally uninhabited.
Mecca also Bacca have existed since the time of Abraham . Even mentioned in the Bible and known as a center of pilgrimage since then .
WoW.. Good one. Thank you for sharing. So all these discussions shows that Islam is indeed ISLAM.
I=Inaccurate
S= Stories
L= Legitimized by
A= Abbasid
M= Monarchy
Brilliant! 😁😍
What is it about the description that was given that the city which is the centre of hills Jay?
👳🏾Bruh moment👳🏾
This is interesting in that we can now also see a confusion between Ur of the Chaldeans (southern Mesopotamia bordering the Persian Gulf) with this northern Ur which is close to if not actually in the land of the Khaldians (people of their supreme god Khaldi) who formed a kingdom there between the 9th and 7th century B.C.
I gotta think that the association if Edessa with Ur is because it is near Harran where Abraham resettled. Over time Edessa would be associated with Ur because it is so close th where Terah died and much if Abraham's family lived. The point that many people in the 8th century BELIEVED that Ur was at is near Edessa is well taken. But, it is interesting that Mecca seems to be also a title meaning something like "main city". If one takes the archeology as a guide then Mecca would be west of the line between Southern Iraq and Southeast Turkey and Petra is right on the trade route west of the Euphrates on the southern leg of the early land based trade route.
I also think Ur of the Chaldeans is meant to refer to Southern Ur(where the Chaldeans were) from Northern Ur near Edessa and over time the two become conflated in the minds of people in Northern Syria and Southern Turkey. The battle description adopts the misconception of the 8th century but preserves the name Chaldeans to give some weight to the 8th century idea.
But the first mosque that points to saudi makkah is in Sindh, modern Pakistan, year 727 CE? The Abbassid were not there in the scene yet. Sindh in Pakistan was conquered by an ummayad general, Qasim?
Thank you Jesus Christ
Mecca in the Hejaz was created as a theme-park!
They gots to keep the denaro rolling in. There was a bad aspect to giving alms I had learned about decades ago. Don't know if it is still the same way. Hope it is not.
@@gilbertjones9157 Where are the archeological artifacts proving the Hijaz Mecca is old enough to have been founded by Abraham?
@@didierfavre2356 You or I have miscommunication; I am persuaded that Abe was in Harah up north giving him access to the Ka'ab, a mobile tent arrangement. Of note: head water of the Two Rivers have proximity to two others with continence sound changes could be those described as being near the Garden adding weight to the narrative.
there is a warp in the standard narrative
Warp Warp Warp....Hum sounds like the klaxon on Star Trek. Did they not have run ins with the Time bureau Time line cops? Hum, I wonder if we are dealing with them now? Mecca might just be moved back. Keep the maps they are Proof where it was, before, after, they moved it.
45:00 1) The Kaba as described in the Quran did not exist before Islam. 2); The Dome of the Rock ;3) The Spanish chronicle is mistaken : I explained why.4) All the different direction were directed towards the Hijaz.
The concept of PRAYING TOWARD a certain place and direction, is totally Pagan. If a person understands that God is everywhere, there is no POINT in praying in a certain direction. An IDOL holds a physical place on the earth. GOD does not.
Wrong.
The concept of qibla is exclusively Judean/Jewish. It began during the babylonian captivity. The Judeans prayed towards Jerusalem (the temple was no longer). Just read the bible carefully to catch that.
The second concept that yahweh is not attached to any geographical location is also non-biblical. The bible is 100% clear as to yahweh's alleged territory of dominance.
@@humsterstories9736 So WHERE then is YHWHs domain? Show me. You can't. Because the Biblical concept of God is that he created the WHOLE universe and that he fills the whole universe. Omnipresence is the whole reason God hates the idols! Mecca ITSELF has become an IDOL for Muslims. When I pray TOWARD anything but the universal, omnipresent God, I am worshipping that which I pray TOWARD.
Correct but it is also to honor where he who tented himself, was born, lived and breathed his last with a Greek word teltelistie - Paid in full. I remember the price paid for me. It is the reason most alters are oriented to the direction of the morning sun and remember what the Roman guards saw.
@@gilbertjones9157 Because we are the BODY of Christ on earth, the living Church, our "altar" is within us. The Cross of Christ was the last altar ever needed. To revere one place called an "altar" outside of the individual, is paganism. When the veil was split during the crucifixion, the altar (presence of God) was made available to the whole world. When Jesus said, BEFORE he was crucified "Take up your cross and follow me", he was saying "make your life a sacrifice for me". The altars throughout time have been, after all, the place of sacrifice.
There is a difference between Makka is wheat Grain in Heat with Makan meaning Honey like wheat bread 🍞 and Honey 🍯 . Don't forget to eat your Weetabix with honey in the morning morning sun breaks out breakfast 😋
@32 mins i think Mel means SouthEAST of where they believed Ur was not Swest!
Is haran where the name is on the map which is SE or is it at the end of the white line which is SW of it?
The Kaaba is the holy house of god , a cubic structure built by Abraham and Ishmael and it is in the city of Mecca which was founded around it.
The text is clear answering a question that the prayers are not toward a specific direction , but toward a place . And yes when you are in Egypt as a country Mecca is in the east and alhira and Basra is south of Iraq are to East of northern Saudi Arabia where the Kaaba is Within the city of Mecca . Maybe the writer needed to be more specific and give the direction from each city in degrees or at least say south east , south west even if he lived in the 7th or 8 th century.
You're accepting that the Kaaba is a place, not a city.
What's Mel's youtube channel?
Sneaker's Corner. Link is here: th-cam.com/channels/WbFMAgToBJE9xRxJwS8ZHg.html
Nice
50:26 1)Jerusalem.2) Yes (at last!!!)
Thank you very much to both you and Mel for helping me pondering this more deeply.
Kaba of Karbala House of Kaba in Iraq 🇮🇶 ib Ali Hussain Kaba sacrificed
1:40 chapter 7 verse 24 does not mention mecca at all
Nor does it say that Ibrahim destroyed the idols in mecca.
25:20 "but all muslims believe that".
No. I've never even heard of this until you said it (I don't "believe" in Islam now, but I spent majority of my life as a Muslim).
I was taught that Ibrahim was born in Iraq.
Mecca should be called "New Mecca".
Las Meccas?
It's a second recession after it was pack up and that which would not fit was burned or if it broke in transit slapped on some Bitumen (no super glue or that gorilla stuff) or dig a hole at the base of dune and it's buried for several hundred years. Make sure you have all those guys who know were the water wells are, cuse the one you thought might be there may not be enough for the olephants.
Who is the Con? Who did the Fusion?
Can you locat real toumb of muhmmad in petra ?
Very interesting! Could you please indicate the sources. You started "Mel uses references...."
He quotes all of them in the video. You will need to watch it, as there are too many to write them out in the small description box above.
@@pfanderfilms "Edgar Morina" left what is maybe an important comment. It's re. some 600s mentions of Mecca. And someone else, "John Poul," said maybe Mecca was deliberately put in its current place.
17:00 Jacob does not make a distinction between the Kaba and Jerusalem as he does not know what the Kaba is and where it is located.You're going too fast, you do not reflect. He just write what the Arabs says when they pray to the East : "We pray toward the Kaba".
As for the "what," Jacob does seem to know that both Jerusalem and the Ka'ba are "the patriarchal places of their races." So, the question would be, "what is exactly a patriarchal place?" I would also say that Jacob does make a disctintion between Jerusalem and the Ka'ba by calling them "places," in plural.
As for the "where," do you see plausible that the Jacob who "saw with his own eyes" the Muslims or Arabs (mhaggriiye) praying in Egypt, didn't know what and where the Ka'ba was, and that "he just write what the Arabs says when they praty to the East," without further inquiring about it? Then, wouldn't have Jacob written "towards a certain unknown place to the East the Arabs call 'the Ka'ba'"?
Couldn't it be said that, as Jacob doesn't locate Jerusalem, he doesn't locate the Ka'ba either, because he takes them for granted?
@@elederiruzkin8835 When Jacob write the word "Kaba", what does it means as place to him? Western Peninsula? What is "the patriarchal places of their races." when Arabs have internalized since one century and half that their father was Abraham (via Ishmael) like the Jews? (via Isaac) Does Jacob is aware of that? Those questions are not answered in his text. Yet they are primordial.
Yes I see it (very) plausible as he gives no more information about it. He writes the name, the direction and nothing else.That he knows more is useless speculation.
Jacob gives the true Jerusalem location: the East. He observes that the Arabs is the same direction with another name "Kaba" he knows no more, he just write what he as heard and saw: no more, no less.
41:35 The series of events: 1)False; 2) The Dome; 3) IA follow the tradition which is wrong.; 4) The Spanish chronicle is mistaken.There is no "Mecca" near Carrhae.
1) Jacob of Edessa doesn't say anything about the Ka'ba being in Petra orJerusalem.
2) Any reference about the Dome of the Rock named as the Masjid al-Haram?
4) I would qualify, there is no _city_ "Mecca" near Carrhae. But there could be the Ka'ba...
@@elederiruzkin8835 1) Yes. 2)Brain reference: l-bayta in the Quran is = al Masjid al-Haram= the Jewish Temple (beth, same word as in arabic which means "House") that was destroyed ("Haram", second sense of the word). In 637 what do the Arabs : they erect a "House " of prayer: The Dome is the culmination of that before the "Mecca" in Hijaz one " Ka'ba" which comes later.
3) No sources. ;-)
35:19 The Gnostic Mandaics? *MEL* ?!!!
You surely are referring to another video. In this one he just says "Mandaics."
Interesting but questions remain. If the original Mecca was as you say, then why move the city so far down to the current location? Why not choose a new location for Mecca closer to the one you suggest as the original. Also in some presentation Dr Jay Smith says he thinks Islam was started in the 690s, stating the first minted coins as evidence, yet here you are saying there were Muslims before then, at least in the 680s. What is it to be?
What about all the narratives of the life of the prophet? The slave he rescued, the followers, the journey of some followers to Abeysinia. I just can not bring myself to believe it was all made up. No way.
As we piece together more of the sources hopefully the picture will keep getting clearer.
Bible gets more updates then the latest iphone
Yup better translations and deeper understanding of the root languages. We do a better job of knowing what our books say. We don't have red lines to stop it.
@@gilbertjones9157 you will have a red line in the judgement day
That book will be rejected by the creator only 1 creator
and you will all enter the Hellfire for eternity
24:00 "Mecca" did not exist before Islam, it is a post 632 creation. Check the Muslim sources to know who have invented it. It is (very) easy... An as it is a novel creation, nobody knew (especially in Spain where the Byzantine-Arab chronicle is written in 741) where "Mecca" was. And as the Arabs ruled Iraq the writer put it there as he knows that "Mecca" could not have been located in where was the Roman Christian Empire.
Sorry if I'm asking too much.
Wouldn't the logic be the opposite? I mean, precisely because "Mecca" is a novel creation after 632 AD, as you say, everyone that mentions it after that date should know where Mecca was? We should also notice that there are more than 100 years between 632 and 741; enough time, I think, to spread the location of Mecca.
BTW, who invented it, when invented it and why invented it.
Thank you.
@@elederiruzkin8835 1) Informations do not spread quickly and with accuracy in those times. Some parts are lost, others confused. There is no map with "Mecca" in the Hijaz before the 9-10th c. It is not surprising when you deal with Antique history.
2)"100 years between 632 and 741" You think as a 21th c. man. ;-)
3) Hahaha! All of this has a response. But it is not the place to discuss them. ;-)
38:00 Palace near Mecca??? *MEL* Stop please!!!
The palace of the fourteenth and last caliph of the Umayyad Caliphate, Marwan II (744-750 CE) was located over the ruins of the temple of the moon god Sin (c. 2000 BCE), at Harran, ancient Carrhae, near the "old Mecca" or, rather, the Ka'ba. Is it nor right?
Regarding the city of Ur. In the upper Mesopotemia region was the kingdom of Urartu, the ancestors of the modern Armenians, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartu.
City of Edessa is located in the same region. The modern name of Edessa is the Urfa. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edessa
Kevan ; This is very interesting reference to Ur from Urartu. I would like to ask you some questions about this topic,
if muhammed was Iraqi and called him bani quraise or son of cyras so how could he was nebetian, or how he was belong to petra, so much confusion.
Mekka near Ur alias Edessa, the home of Abraham ... in Turkey ?
could be an info from islamic sources. XDDD
Every part of Turkey was someone else's land.
@@chm5750 All the back to Hittites and Troy.
@@gilbertjones9157 Hellenes (Greeks), were in Anatolia Thrace and Constantinople for at least 2,500 years and longer, before their ethnic cleansing and pogroms by the Turks.
Have you seen what says the next vers 25th?
Wow ulthman built Mecca really is that the same family ulthman who wrote the Qur'an years later to point Islam towards there new city wow
Mel's voice is so sophorific I fall asleep each time I listen to him. Good topic though
...
I would suggest increasing the playback speed. I guess most fluent speakers of English, when speaking about an intellectual topic that requires logical reasoning, speak more slowly than the speed at which most fluent listeners can comprehend such speech. It would take a fast speaker, bad audio, or a foreign language I'm learning, for me to go down to normal speed.
Hi jay , I would like to ask way Muslim think the bible come from God( injil) and u say it come from man And if it was God word the Quran say God preserved his books, it should also include the bible because Muslims believe the bible was God word till it got corrupted , if God preserved his books why are Muslim saying the bible is corrupted???..That mean Muslims do not trust God when he said he preserved his books . and Muslims should believe that God revealed 4 revelations
There is a difference between lawful and unlawful practice of lawfar Multiple personality psychopaths Simple vacation regarding Devil lawfar Ur Du Awaa Elements in space and air better known as gas gasping for pure spirit of la meaning love law
Abraham in the Islamic tradition is from Iraq .
Kara meaning House 🏠 Concentration of Gathering
Adam was trown to Sri Lanka not south india
Kaba or Khaba meaning Hallucination or a dream Kaba meaning Covered Grave Dwelling Kaba Grave Associated with a teacher of law & love where the Judiciary of 🇮🇶 Iraq & iran & Romans asked for Hussain or Hazrath or Nazareth Jesus for Guidance in injustice Practice of Mohammadan Roman Bedouins