Thank you for the hour length because I listen in the background while busy and don't like to have to keep stopping to set up another one every 10 minutes.
Makkah In my opinion researchers instead of looking for some unimportant issues of islam, in my ppininio it is better to accept the present islam existencrllllll
@@AffableCounselorNumber1 Source that Does not Go in Hand with History is fiction Genesis 19 Sulphur and Brimstone (approved by History) Quran 54:34( what storm of Stones ) ??
It seems that Jays followers confuse speculation for scientific enquiry Anything that Jay speculates is lapped up like gospel There are many points of refutation that any person really seeking the truth should consider in an unbiased manner As for Quran the Birmingham manuscript has been deeply studied by real scholars who have unanimously supported its authenticity One comment below by Bart Ehrman I know Jay hates anyone citing Bart but that’s because he is an eminent bible scholar who is backed by other scholars rather than apologists who fit the narrative to suit their bias It turns out that there is a 95% chance that these pages were produced between 568 and 645 CE. How good is that? The prophet Mohammed, who (in traditional Islamic teaching) was responsible for producing the Qur’an was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. These pages may have been produced during his lifetime or in a decade or so later. In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE. Imagine if we found two pages of text that contain portions, say, of the Sermon on the Mount, in almost exactly the same form as we have them in what is now our Gospel of Matthew, and suppose that these pages received a carbon-14 dating of 30 BCE - 40 CE. Would we be ecstatic, OR WHAT???
@Konstantin Ridaya Have you ever taken a look at scholarly works about NT? It would seem not It seems that Jays followers confuse speculation for scientific enquiry Anything that Jay speculates is lapped up like gospel There are many points of refutation that any person really seeking the truth should consider in an unbiased manner As for Quran the Birmingham manuscript has been deeply studied by real scholars who have unanimously supported its authenticity One comment below by Bart Ehrman I know Jay hates anyone citing Bart but that’s because he is an eminent bible scholar who is backed by other scholars rather than apologists who fit the narrative to suit their bias It turns out that there is a 95% chance that these pages were produced between 568 and 645 CE. How good is that? The prophet Mohammed, who (in traditional Islamic teaching) was responsible for producing the Qur’an was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. These pages may have been produced during his lifetime or in a decade or so later. In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE. Imagine if we found two pages of text that contain portions, say, of the Sermon on the Mount, in almost exactly the same form as we have them in what is now our Gospel of Matthew, and suppose that these pages received a carbon-14 dating of 30 BCE - 40 CE. Would we be ecstatic, OR WHAT???
Thanks for the information. Everyday islam falls apart. I still say the islamic scholars know the truth about their history. Power is more important than truth.
@@aaaabraham837 The Standard Islamic Narrative (SIN) has holes in it... • The existence of an historical prophet named Muhammed, debunked. • The existence of Mecca(Hejaz) before the 7th century, debunked • The existence of quoran before the 9th century, debunked • The existence of a religion called Islam before the 9th century, debunked • Too many holes, . .... youtututu.🙊🙊🙊 And when you take a DEEP DIVE,.... then you find the holes are getting bigger and bigger with every passing moment.... God bless you Dr. Jay for such a brilliant job. Islam has fallen...JESUS IS LORD! p What is good for you is to surrender your life to Jesus Christ Now before it's too lateag SAVE YOURSELF FROM FALSE ISLAM AND GIVE YOUR LIFE TO JESUS NOW! Muhammad is dead and cannot save you. JESUS IS ALIVE FOREVER MORE!!!last updated 23 M
And yet, he is super sensitive if anyone even as much as says the word. 🙄 He has shut down the comments on his channel because he is surprised that there are people in the world with different opinions than his. 🤔
@@Speakers154 Just like you removing comments because they don't share the same opinion or view as you. Jesus is Lucifer the Morning Star the Bible is filthy and full of violence
@John Wick prove otherwise big guy. Alls u ever do is spew out insults, NEVER GIVING EVIDENCE OTHERWISE OF ANY KIND. U know why? Bc u don’t have any. U can’t defend Islam bc Islam is a joke. A very bad joke.
Quite interesting. Although the area of interest is now under water, could anything be learned from aerial photos taken before the dam was built? Google Earth has images taken in 1992 (but switches to low resolution images from 1985 on zooming in). What might be available under the Freedom of Information Act? To be sure, aerial imagery can't accomplish the same as on the ground study, but perhaps something might be found.
One station is arround 40 km, that is the distance sheep, horse and man can travel every day without losing weight and loooks, so they can be sold in full price. Almost all older towns in Europe are arround 40 km from each other.
The analysis from 29:00 until about 43:00 was originally a critique made by me on March 21st and I'm delighted that RJ has taken it on board and advanced a very plausible theory. My view is, as Red Judaism said, was there was multiple ideas about where Ur was, and at least two entered the Islamic tradition, the first is that it was the location of Edessa, hence why the modern city of Sianiurfa bring people on tours of Abraham's birthplace, (this would fit nicely with Joe's idea of Umar as Muhammad as Umar was said to have ruled from there, Mecca could then be viewed as near there) and the second is as in the video today. In support of this is a story found that Abraham took a trip on the flying buraq from Armenia to Mecca. Regardless of where precisely Mecca was imagined to be, the key thing is that it clearly wasn't perceived as down in the Hijaz. This video overall is a great contribution to our collective understanding. Well done to Jay and Joe!
Just thought of this while listening to the video, Why was the name for Medina changed from it's original Yathrib(?), plus when was the name changed? It has import for both for the Quran and the Constitution probably more.
First greetings from Iraq; Interesting! there is a small town named( Sinjar) also, in the middle region of Iraq, its next to the historical city of Babel, and Babel plays a great role in Jewish history, and there where they say that the tower of Bable was, I mean its logic to assume the similarity of the names might give another prespective to the idea, I have been following the whole episodes till now and I find it very interesting to know new things.
God Bless U Jay nd Joe ur so helpful in understanding the distorted history, Don't runaway from God, Come to Jesus, he will give u rest and everlasting Life ,love u brothers and sisters.
@@rajadaksa2673 Yes it is, it's been put under the microscope in every way and is historically very sound. Not so for Islam, as it's now being put under the microscope too and it's failing badly
Ur of the Chaldees was the small Ur located in the Chaldeans *original* homeland in the north, not the big city Ur located that Sir Leonard Woolley unearthed in SE Mesopotamia and misidentified base on a later Chaldee migration to the southeast. That is why Abraham's relatives lived in the Haran area (near northern Ur) and not around southern Ur. These northern headwaters are also the likely location of Eden.
Now to find long-obscured remains of pre-Osmanic/pre-Utthmanic Qurans with entire missing sections of surahs and perhaps entire surahs around one of those Meccas!
Robin, I'm not sure that they ever existed. I Oodon Lafontain is correct in saying that the documents which became the Quran during the Abasid period were actally a collection of syriac lectionaries that got cobbled together with Jewish mystacism and oral Torah. Joe is actually doing a fantastic series of looking at sections of the Qur'an from a Manikahan perspective as well as from a Noahite Jewish perspective. Shayk Murad over on Sneakers Corner is also working on transliterating the Quran back into Aramaic and is coming to some interesting conclusions as well.
@@CuriousDuffer Commentary on Birmingham manuscript by scholar Bart Ehrman I know dear Jay doesn’t like Bart but Bart is backed by all the scholars on this and more t turns out that there is a 95% chance that these pages were produced between 568 and 645 CE. How good is that? The prophet Mohammed, who (in traditional Islamic teaching) was responsible for producing the Qur’an was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. These pages may have been produced during his lifetime or in a decade or so later. In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE. Imagine if we found two pages of text that contain portions, say, of the Sermon on the Mount, in almost exactly the same form as we have them in what is now our Gospel of Matthew, and suppose that these pages received a carbon-14 dating of 30 BCE - 40 CE. Would we be ecstatic, OR WHAT???
@@inaaranur1611 The dating of the pages is not the dating of the ink and the script has diacritical marks in it, so it must be late 7th or early 8th century.
@@inaaranur1611 Oh Inaara, did you just assume I'm a Christian? Ouch, hurtful! You monothiests and your assumptions. Consider this though: if your [insert convenient historical amalgimated person] even bothered to write things down rather than willing their materials into existence just for flips and twiggles. (Preferably on something akin to an Ipad with a well thoughout out interface). Then they would just be yet another human whose probably gotten a bit transendental due to the consumption of psychadelics, volcanic vent sniffing, or through intentional dehydration. You see the 'oh but they were so holy' and 'they were men of their time who wouldn't dare to question the will of god,' excuse wears thin when Mani, the Guru's of Sikhism, Joseph Smith, all are preported to have done the same thing. So no, other than seeing how you are ducking the bulk of Jays videos, and placing significanly more faith in carbon dating on a non-dispassionate whim. Then, no I don' see what you are saying at all. But seeing as how you are equating early writings with implicit importance, way to disprove your initial stance in one go. As all religions that can be traced to a founding figure, no matter whether they are monotheistic or not, desperatly care to be justified by having acccess to primary source material. And quoting Bart Ehrman to support the efficacy of pure radio carbon dating??? Really??? The Catholics have a shroud of Turin to sell you if that's the case.
Actually the underwater "Mecca" could be considered a home of Abraham because his family stopped and lived there for a few years on their way northwest to Haran.
@Kafir Linda Clark Yes, right on the Masjid al Haram can be applied all the way back (using the local language) to Sumer's temple sites, kind of like Mohammad is a title in it's origin.
@@mattilatvala4164 There are maps, even some showing small settlements not far from Mecca, but there's none with Mecca on them, but even more damming there's no mention of Mecca in any writings.
When it was under a British mandate after World War I, they may have drawn up a map - the Brits and French were very keen on map making. I'm assuming the dam was built in Saddam's time - for all his many faults he did some infrastructure works. The Ottomans may have also had maps. So there could be names of old settlements where the dam now is. It's not clear from the presentation, if Joe has looked into this.
@Sgt. Grinch Lodar could be employed for that but requires a low flying plane to do the job in a hostile environment. Maybe in time the weapons of war will fall silent allowing that kind of activity.
I think this location of Meccah is wrong, because people lived in Meccah spoke arabic, this location people didn’t speak arabic. I think Petra was the real Meccah as Dan Gibson has explained.
PFANDERFILMS, What is your basis for worshiping Jesus? Whereas in the New Testament book there is no verse that shows there is relationship between Jesus and Christianity.
Jay smith you said Mecca is Arabia Which Arabia are you talking about? Arabia also refers to the desert in Syria when Paul became a Christian he went into the Arabian desert to preywhich located in northern Syria
It's hard to tell where the overland trade routes of the Silk Road came through, but it is possible that, in the 7th Century, a branch came down (or up!) the river valleys in Mesopotamia to link the West and the East.
When describing a location back then, since they didn't have maps like today, saying a place is between A and B means it is along the way as you travel from A to B. Since the Byzantine chronicle places Mecca between Ur and Carra, you need to look at the path one would travel going between those cities. And your other source, the Journey of Egeriae, conveniently tells us the exact midpoint between those places, Nisibis. So you don't need to go looking further! It is probably in that area. But drawing a line on a modern map between Ur and Carra and looking at what is in the middle makes no sense because that is not how they would have traveled or even envisioned it. But we know the route they traveled because you found it for us. Mecca is along that route and Nisibis is the midway point, if you're looking for that. But "between Ur and Carra" as meant by the Chronicler probably doesn't mean exactly half way, just somewhere between.
I always liked the idea that Petra is the original Mecca just because of it's relationship to Allah of the pre Islamic religions of the area and it's historical basis as an ancient religious site.
Very Interesting and well researched analysis about the lovation of original Mecca. Not it is very much clear that Mecca where it is today is not the original Mecca rather an afterthought of Abbasids to propagate their narrative and twist the early history of Islam. It is very clear from all the evidences that the present location of Mecca was not hospitable in 6the and 7th century at all Mecca was somewhere else and brought down to present location with some ulterior motives of Abbasids.
Joe you know it may even be in Disney land in Florida. What do you think? We can write a book about it. There probably a lot of naive people would believe us.
Both Joe's and Mel's narratives are amazing. Both have so much to tell us. If Abraham lived in Joe's narrative then certainly his life was replicated in this new Mecca. Because Mecca already existed in joe's narrative. Mel's narrative comes later than Joe's time line. And finally comes the Abbasids narrative. Mixing both the narratives into their own. Look what they did with Mary mother of Jesus. made her a sister of aaron. confusing her with Miriam. The Hannah the mother of Samuel becomes the mother of Mary. do you see the connection.?
Why Mecca? Well I read Abd al-Malik the one who built the Dome family came from the first Mecca that is why he made Mecca the place of worship. Everything Islamic ideology starts with Abd al-Malik prior is a gaping black hole.
@@caramia479 , Family = Parents either way it was choosing because it meant something to him. That's what I read but could be wrong as nothing is clear in Islam, maybe because it was close to Abraham village one thing we do know it was nothing to do with religion it was political power, religion was away to get wealth and to build on their power. Every empire had a religion story so Islam created one which took over 600 years till they got their first canonized book / story together from pre Islamic stories and myths... Cocktail religion of many stories gone by. Only thing that in the Islam Quran that belongs to them is the stupid verses.
Quran 2:142 refers to two holy cities, Mecca and Old City of Jerusalem. And who is best to explain such prophecy or matter but Elias, the reincarnated Elijah, by God's authority. Moreover such fact is confirmed by God's Signature, the Miracle Code 19, that bears God's attributes, the First(1) and the Last(9), Alpha(1) and Omega(9), the Beginning(1) and the End(9), the Outermost(1) and the Innermost(9). Ponder over God's Word from the Quran, together with His Proof, The fools among the people would say, "Why did they change the direction of their Qiblah?" Say, "To God belongs the east and the west; He guides whoever wills in a straight path." (2:142) * English Gematrical Value (EGV) for the letter N = 50, E =10; * Coordinates for MECCA = 21°25′21″N 39°49′24″E = 21°25′21″N(50) 39°49′24″E(10) = 21°25′21″50 39°49′24″10; * Coordinates for OLD CITY of JERUSALEM = 31°46′36″N 35°14′03″E = 31°46′36″N(50) 35°14′03″E(10) = 31°46′36″50 35°14′03″10; We thus made you an impartial community, that you may serve as witnesses among the people, and the messenger serves as a witness among you. We changed the direction of your original Qiblah only to distinguish those among you who readily follow the messenger from those who would turn back on their heels. It was a difficult test, but not for those who are guided by God. God never puts your worship to waste. God is Compassionate towards the people, Most Merciful. (2:143) We have seen you turning your face about the sky (searching for the right direction). We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. God is never unaware of anything they do. (2:144) * Coordinates for Masjid al-Haram = 21°25′21″N 39°49′34″E = 21°25′21″N(50) 39°49′34″E(10) = 21°25′21″50 39°49′34″10 Even if you show the followers of the scripture every kind of miracle, they will not follow your Qiblah. Nor shall you follow their Qiblah. They do not even follow each others' Qiblah. If you acquiesce to their wishes, after the knowledge that has come to you, you will belong with the transgressors. (2:145) Say, "This was revealed by the One who knows the Secret* in the heavens and the earth. He is Forgiving, Most Merciful." (25:6) O children of Adam, when messengers come to you from among you, and recite My revelations to you, those who take heed and lead a righteous life, will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve. (7:35) He is the One who sent to the gentiles a messenger from among them, to recite to them His revelations, purify them, and teach them the scripture and wisdom. Before this, they had gone far astray. (62:2) God thus explains His revelations for you, that you may understand. (2:242) * 2142 21°25′21″50 39°49′24″10 31°46′36″50 35°14′03″10 2143 2144 21°25′21″50 39°49′34″10 2145 256 735 622 2242 = 19 x 1127480274 4757627584 3761244755 3370053759 5865375011 3178680742 2181714071 380118.00 Peace from Elijah/Elias.
t seems that Jays followers confuse speculation for scientific enquiry Anything that Jay speculates is lapped up like gospel There are many points of refutation that any person really seeking the truth should consider in an unbiased manner As for Quran the Birmingham manuscript has been deeply studied by real scholars who have unanimously supported its authenticity One comment below by Bart Ehrman I know Jay hates anyone citing Bart but that’s because he is an eminent bible scholar who is backed by other scholars rather than apologists who fit the narrative to suit their bias States Bart It turns out that there is a 95% chance that these pages were produced between 568 and 645 CE. How good is that? The prophet Mohammed, who (in traditional Islamic teaching) was responsible for producing the Qur’an was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. These pages may have been produced during his lifetime or in a decade or so later. In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE. Imagine if we found two pages of text that contain portions, say, of the Sermon on the Mount, in almost exactly the same form as we have them in what is now our Gospel of Matthew, and suppose that these pages received a carbon-14 dating of 30 BCE - 40 CE. Would we be ecstatic, OR WHAT???
In Hindi/Urdu we have word MAKAAN. The word MAKAAN came from persian. In persian the word came from Aramaic. MAKAAN means a house or home or a building or a place or a location or a sanctuary. Makan is very similar to Makah.
Around 697 John Bar Penkaye: “One of the Arabs, by name Zubayr, made his voice heard from a distance. He made it known about himself that he had come out of zeal for the House of God and he was full of threats against the Westerners, claiming that they were transgreessors of the law. He came to a certain locality in the south where their sanctuary was and lived there.” He also writes that Zubayr was killed at this sanctuary. John Bar Penkaye lived near Edessa, Harran and Nisibis, so "in the south" cannot be near these places. Therefore either the Arab-Byzantine Chronicle written in Spain is wrong about the geography or the much earlier account of John Bar Penkaye is wrong about the geography of the area where he lived. The most obvious explanation is that there were competing opinions about where Abraham lived.
Spot on, Peter! It is a good reminder that even people writing things down at that time didnt necessarily get it right. I think there were lots of opinions floating around back then. I just read an Italian pilgrim's account from 570 AD, who thought Abraham was born in Harran. So confusion reigns. :)
Makkata is not a physical place. Bi-batni Makkata means “WITH inneth drained” due to the confrontation : who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them. Bi-Bakkata simply means courage WITH Courage . A physical place mentioned in the Quran would contradict the Quran that proclaimed nothing should be associated with Allah. But human like to create holy things and places in order to associate god.
Yeah baby. Just read the book. Don’t believe in wolves wearing sheep clothings. Jay and his side kick Al can sale you the Golden State Bridge in San Fransisco, CA for 50% off. They even got forge copy they can sent you.
@@sheikhboyardee556 I guess you lack knowledge on the topic. There so many study going on Islam and Muhammad by nonMuslim and Muslim. Everything from the prophet personal belongings, words and people who knew the prophet (wives, daughters, friends and etc).have been analyzed. The biggest Christian scholars and church leaders throughout Europe consider him a prophet and great human being. It is the no bodies with hidden agenda, spinning their web of lies. They try to distorted the truth. Don’t be closed minded. Open your eyes, heart and mind to truth.
@John Hinkle in common law counties the positions of the courts are If a witness is found to have been or to have presented false testimony, in one part, than it is held that no trust can be held in any of that person's testimony. False once all the rest is tainted.
@@RobertJohnson-un4ht I would suggest you read the "book." What they and others say is from research, not idle speculation. The Quran, Hadaths & Surahs are so embarrassing they need to go in the 21st Century.
Even when there is water, they have mapped the ocean floor. How they do this is not my forte. But with Adam being thrown down to India, India has had a long history, they may have maps. Like the Chinese have records of the Nabatean traders, trade to India would have been worthwhile for them too. And if those from India happened to come to towards the west, they certainly could have also made maps. There were many concepts “borrowed” from India such as what we call Algebra and the concept of “zero” was appropriated from India. Do not the people of India have a god named Brahma? And look at the name “Abraham”, they are similar. Now in some languages, if you put an “a” in front “theist” you get “atheist”, which is a denial of what the first word was. In India, there were and are many idols. That Abraham headed towards the Mediterranean, he at the same time was going away from India. When God changed Abraham’s name from “Abram” to “Abraham”, He added the “Ham” part, who was a son of Noah. But I do think as there were many wars on the plain of Shinar, these would scatter people to other places and some of the places they would have gone was to India because they also had water. Again in India, the Muslims have done a lot of destruction but, they have not destroyed all of it and there may be more as I am sure the people of India would have understood the threat to their civilization and did so, so well, that they survived having to live with Islam and not be absorbed completely by it. To have a conversation about every idea stolen from India by Muslims would be interesting, wouldn’t it?
Taking care of widows and orphans is a personal responsibility. It is nothing to do with government socialism. The Acts 2 church tried socialism and later other churches had to bail the out.
Its Petra. Proven with prayer walls in mosques, that were built in Mohammed's time. 11. Of these all point directly at Petra. The Main ancient silk road hub. This is where he got the idea, that stealing, is more profitable than trading.
@@aaaabraham837 Sorry, Dr. Quidi is right, we in the west have no red lines and the knowledge gained in the last 20 years is moving at a faster pace. There will be more for your Polemics teachers to deal with as more comes forward, no matter how hard you try.
@@aaaabraham837 Sorry you don't know the Doctor. (wink) Your statement is made without support. You continue to fail in addressing the information presented. "All crap" is a fail. It also shows others how much is in you. Since this is new information it shows there is no veritas in saying Debunked. This video does not deal with Petra as your posted video seeks to do but the hometown of Abraham. You should have listened to the video.
Good white paper. Thanks Joe. In any case the SIN does not hold water ... and they should face up to it or provide the evidence that every one has been waiting for ... Please no off topics.
I understand the Abbasid motivation to change the location of Mecca. But why choose to place it in the middle of nowhere so far south away from your political power center of Bagdad. Also, pilgrimage was a big money maker and the abbasids would expect huge number of believers to visit the place. So again why so far away from civilization with no obvious source of fresh water?
@Kevan in an earlier video it was said that the cultural(?) or ancestral belief held that one prays in a southernly direction for the Abbys. Plus it was not an Abby that picked the spot but a rebellious Ummy governor who pull out of Petra and went south to the Hijaz then sought assistance from the Persian Abbys. The pilgrimage shifted from Petra to Mecca (Hijaz) with no dead to be brought. Previous generations of Nabbies expats were cut off from both reducing numbers.
As I explained to Joe in response to his first rendition of this hypothesis, in which he made the whole of Iraq into Mecca (!), if you go from Nisibis and go southeast you end up with a distance of less than 10 stations. I originally pointed out what a station is and how to measure it, but he seems to have not fully taken this on board. With his new location for Ur, it is only 7-8 stations to Harran! 🤔 So why go through Nisibis at all? Hmm. In any case, while it is good to check out these early sources, part of what we are trying to do is to break the sources: did the witness get it wrong? Witnesses sometimes do. While assuming all the sources will corroborate is wishful thinking in reality, they do contradict each other because some are just plain in error, hence why it is difficult to get easy answers.
Even without history we all know today’s Mecca isn’t ancient Mecca and with as many abrogations and changes in the Quran, let alone the religion, it’s a wonder to me why mzms don’t recognize this. For me, the very fact that the direction of worship was changed at all speaks volumes. But then again, I’m a sensical and logical kinda person. Mzms are NOT.
It seems that Jays followers confuse speculation for scientific enquiry Anything that Jay speculates is lapped up like gospel There are many points of refutation that any person really seeking the truth should consider in an unbiased manner As for Quran the Birmingham manuscript has been deeply studied by real scholars who have unanimously supported its authenticity One comment below by Bart Ehrman I know Jay hates anyone citing Bart but that’s because he is an eminent bible scholar who is backed by other scholars rather than apologists who fit the narrative to suit their bias It turns out that there is a 95% chance that these pages were produced between 568 and 645 CE. How good is that? The prophet Mohammed, who (in traditional Islamic teaching) was responsible for producing the Qur’an was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. These pages may have been produced during his lifetime or in a decade or so later. In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE. Imagine if we found two pages of text that contain portions, say, of the Sermon on the Mount, in almost exactly the same form as we have them in what is now our Gospel of Matthew, and suppose that these pages received a carbon-14 dating of 30 BCE - 40 CE. Would we be ecstatic, OR WHAT???
Mzms entire faith is based on the idea of their supriority over others, truth doesn't matter to them, it is al about authority, that authority can come from any of the 5 t's of their belief twisting, turning terror, taqiya and tantrum. Notice that truth is not one of the 5 t's
@@universalflamethrower6342 amen on that!!! What’s funny tho is that if they read their quran with the words that are there, they’d know that their god gave that authority (and the land) to the Jws lol
@@temporaryaccount5307 it took me a lot of YT videos and reading the Narrative with holes to get a grasp on their mindset. I have a reasonable amount of experience with mzms it can be good or bad but its almost always on the physical level. Somehow a part of their thoughtprocess seems cornered off. The copy paste respons is like a pavlovian pre--programmed response which kicks in as soon as stuff gets difficult, I have witnessed that in real life a couple of times. It was hard to come to grips with this coming from a liberal anything goes truth is relative mindset.
Basically. Islam evolved out of Christianity and Zoroastrianism in the same way that early Judaism evolved out of Egyptian and Sumerian polytheism. A combination of subtle misinformation, some luck, and a lot of murder.
@Forgiving Fragrance You have heard about the Dead Sea Scrolls? Those documents come from before Jesus. And the Dead Sea Scrolls that have been found REITERATE exactly what is in the Old Testament of today. You are wrong.
@@AffableCounselorNumber1 It doesn't matter! We don't CLAIM to have an uncreated, eternal Old or New Testament. You Muslims do. The myriad of "versions" we have, all come from the thousands of scrolls and scroll fragments that are preserved today. Remember, your Allah stated that NO ONE can change Gods word. If the Bible IS CORRUPTED then the many many references to Biblical scriptures in Quran are corrupted too! Hahahahahaha! And your god allowed his own word to be corrupted. Either way, you lose! If the Bible isn't corrupted, then Quran is all a lie. If the Bible IS CORRUPTED, then Quran is WRONG! Hahahahah!
@Forgiving Fragrance The Standard Islamic Narrative (SIN) has holes in it... • The existence of an historical prophet named Muhammed, debunked. • The existence of Mecca(Hejaz) before the 7th century, debunked • The existence of quoran before the 9th century, debunked • The existence of a religion called Islam before the 9th century, debunked • Too many holes, . .... youtututu.🙊🙊🙊 And when you take a DEEP DIVE,.... then you find the holes are getting bigger and bigger with every passing moment.... God bless you Dr. Jay for such a brilliant job. Islam has fallen apart..JESUS IS LORD! p What is good for you is to surrender your life to Jesus Christ Now before it's too lateag SAVE YOURSELF FROM FALSE ISLAM AND GIVE YOUR LIFE TO JESUS NOW! Muhammad is dead and cannot save you. JESUS IS ALIVE FOREVER MORE!!!la
My main critique of Sneakers corner is that he promotes "fringe theory of the day" with different degrees of factual support and they all point in different directions. As long as they point away from the standard islamic narrative - they are promoted. This makes the knowledge very balkanized and it does not help to form a coherent picture of what actually happened. Jay, please don't fall into that trap as it confuses everyone and will hurt your credibility in the long run. Do the research, form your hypothesis once you have gathered enough knowledge and then present it. I still wait for the clear and easily understandable episode where you present the most plausible timeline of events that led up to the current situation.
@@1CT1 Yes, I know, and I do. I don't understand how that's a relevant reply to my comment - nor do I think you understood my intentions or what message I was trying to convey. I want islam to crumble and fall just as much as any sane person - and I'm trying to give my input to Jay on how to make that happen as effectively as possible.
Niklas Paulsson Hello Niklas Paulson. Nice to meet you. Good to know that believe in Jesus, and despise the false teaching of Islam. The purpose of me posting John 3:16 the way in which I had, was to spread the word across youtube as much as I can to encourage people to believe in Jesus and to save unbelievers. Reading you comment when I had first viewed it I was unsure and thus lead or the post here. Have a wonderful rest of your day/night everyone, may the LORD bless you all, and farewell.
Quran chapter 114 sura In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful. 1. Say, “I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind. 2. The King of mankind. 3. The God of mankind. 4. From the evil of the sneaky whisperer. 5. Who whispers into the hearts of people. 6. From among jinn and among people.”
@@dwy8569 Quran chapter 112 sura In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful. 1. Say, “He is God, the One. 2. God, the Absolute. 3. He begets not, nor was He begotten. 4. And there is none comparable to Him.”
@@ttt3258 Yes exactly this is the belief of the Monophysite Coptic Christians, that Jesus is a Messiah, and a Word from him, and a Spirit from him, but God is one alone, and he does not give birth and no one gave birth to him. You can win $1000 on Red Judaism channel if you prove the Christology in the Quran cannot be explained from a Christian perspective, using Corpus.Quran.com . Not Abbasid translations
@@dwy8569 So God Is One , but some time three gods , check your math , or is it new math just to fit with everything . ,, God the Creator Is One , with no partners
@@ttt3258 That’s the heresy of the Arabian Tritheists who believed there are three separate Gods which the Quran condemns, and the Arabian modalists who say the Father is the Messiah which the Quran condemns again. Yes the Father is NOT the Messiah nor his Word nor a Spirit from him but all these things emanate from the Father and have existed eternally with the Father, the Father is One as with the Coptic Church. I am not my toenail but my toenail is part of me. Do not say three - desist! You refuse to understand the Christological heresies of Arabia at that time and cling to the Abbasid interpretation.
I guess anyone can lie like you guys. I guess the real Mecca could have been in Egypt or maybe in Saudi Arabia like what written in the books. In the end it doesn’t really matter. People are comfortable where it is and great the history it has.
WOW! - 2 fast speakers...ALL those theories? Your questions are completely wrong...IF Mecca existed, IF Mohammad (saw) existed, IF the Quran existed...Obviously they existed as Mecca is here today as it was yesterday and the day before...so is Mohammad (saw) , as his grave is in Medina with 2 of his companions being visited by Muslims CONTINIOUSLY since their passing...and the Quran with millions of Muslims knowing it by heart (Hafiz). Your question must be IF Mecca, Mohammad (saw), the Quran is what the Muslims claim and WHY? YOUR THEORIES are all conjecture and what makes this exercise worse, is that you are bias and HATE ISLAM, making all your rhetoric null and void.
It seems that Jays followers confuse speculation for scientific enquiry Anything that Jay speculates is lapped up like gospel There are many points of refutation that any person really seeking the truth should consider in an unbiased manner As for Quran the Birmingham manuscript has been deeply studied by real scholars who have unanimously supported its authenticity One comment below by Bart Ehrman I know Jay hates anyone citing Bart but that’s because he is an eminent bible scholar who is backed by other scholars rather than apologists who fit the narrative to suit their bias It turns out that there is a 95% chance that these pages were produced between 568 and 645 CE. How good is that? The prophet Mohammed, who (in traditional Islamic teaching) was responsible for producing the Qur’an was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. These pages may have been produced during his lifetime or in a decade or so later. In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE. Imagine if we found two pages of text that contain portions, say, of the Sermon on the Mount, in almost exactly the same form as we have them in what is now our Gospel of Matthew, and suppose that these pages received a carbon-14 dating of 30 BCE - 40 CE. Would we be ecstatic, OR WHAT???
you guys are making it extremely complicated by making a whole series without having all the answers or even a complete theory. the other day you were saying muhammad may be a title for Jesus and the next day al fadi posts a video saying muhammad is a fraud. try to be consistent. once you’ve got the theory straight then make a video or write a book.
You should watch Joe's Channel. He has always had a consistent theory. Muhammad refers to *part* of Jesus. And it is a name which Jesus's Jewish followers named themselves after. So one of those followers was a Jewish Emir who conquered Syria in the 630s before he converted. Joe can even explain every verse of the Umayyad Quran from that point of view. It is totally astounding.
I didn’t watch the videos u mentioned, but I can already tell u ur misunderstanding. The Arabs very clearly meant for mhamed to replace Jesus while mhamed the arab man is clearly a fraud.
It seems that Jays followers confuse speculation for scientific enquiry Anything that Jay speculates is lapped up like gospel There are many points of refutation that any person really seeking the truth should consider in an unbiased manner As for Quran the Birmingham manuscript has been deeply studied by real scholars who have unanimously supported its authenticity One comment below by Bart Ehrman I know Jay hates anyone citing Bart but that’s because he is an eminent bible scholar who is backed by other scholars rather than apologists who fit the narrative to suit their bias It turns out that there is a 95% chance that these pages were produced between 568 and 645 CE. How good is that? The prophet Mohammed, who (in traditional Islamic teaching) was responsible for producing the Qur’an was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. These pages may have been produced during his lifetime or in a decade or so later. In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE. Imagine if we found two pages of text that contain portions, say, of the Sermon on the Mount, in almost exactly the same form as we have them in what is now our Gospel of Matthew, and suppose that these pages received a carbon-14 dating of 30 BCE - 40 CE. Would we be ecstatic, OR WHAT???
@@temporaryaccount5307 t seems that Jays followers confuse speculation for scientific enquiry Anything that Jay speculates is lapped up like gospel There are many points of refutation that any person really seeking the truth should consider in an unbiased manner As for Quran the Birmingham manuscript has been deeply studied by real scholars who have unanimously supported its authenticity One comment below by Bart Ehrman I know Jay hates anyone citing Bart but that’s because he is an eminent bible scholar who is backed by other scholars rather than apologists who fit the narrative to suit their bias States Bart It turns out that there is a 95% chance that these pages were produced between 568 and 645 CE. How good is that? The prophet Mohammed, who (in traditional Islamic teaching) was responsible for producing the Qur’an was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. These pages may have been produced during his lifetime or in a decade or so later. In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE. Imagine if we found two pages of text that contain portions, say, of the Sermon on the Mount, in almost exactly the same form as we have them in what is now our Gospel of Matthew, and suppose that these pages received a carbon-14 dating of 30 BCE - 40 CE. Would we be ecstatic, OR WHAT???
@@inaaranur1611 hah! A mzm talking about science?! That’s hilarious 🙄! Any person really seeking truth should consider” that Islam doesn’t even have science (or history or archaeology or early Arabic literature or complete manuscripts or same manuscripts or real life events or...) so spare us the “truth seeking” babble. The whole world knows women don’t have semen, genders aren’t determined by who orgasms first and the sun doesn’t chase the moon over the flat earth w shooting stars as missiles! Ugh! As for ur buddy Bart, it’s amusing to me that u parrot mzms LOVE try using him as the voice for all biblical scholars, yet when he also says Jesus was real and did too die on the cross, he suddenly doesn’t know everything! And btw ur Birmingham book proves nothing except that it’s stories are COPIED! As for the rest of ur comment, u lost me at Bart. Ur just another copy paste mzm who doesn’t have an independent thought to save his soul!
So you’ve changed your tune again. Last time you said Mecca was Petra and not you say it’s in northern Syria. What will you say tomorrow? Ahh the Christian logic!
lol this shows islam is a man made cult cause all the sources we have outside of islamic propoganda (quran, tafseer and ahadith) point to different locations... just like the character "muhammad". so the logic of islam is oh my god wrote a book and its true even if history and archaeology disagrees
@@empatia2794 it doesnt matter... i read an article lately on thetorah.com it was about hagar's well hebrew tenach scholars located hagar's well close to Petra.
@@Bei-Abedan please give Biblical reasons for that. Does the world only revolve around Jews? The Creator did create human beings not only Jews. Please analyse the first word Bereshit in Hebrew. See which words it contains in the sequence of the word.
@@williamwaterford8114 "Does the world only revolve around Jews?" That is an example of an Anti-Judaic comment so there is no point in any further discussion.
The Bible explains that, it'll be a mark put on you to say you've accepted the "Antichrist". It sounds silly that anyone would do that, but of course he won't be saying "I'm the Antichrist", and he'll seem like the solution to the world's problems, although will be totally rejecting the God of the Bible. Without this mark, in the areas he controls, one would not be able to buy and sell, probably all sorts of checkpoints. To not take the mark would be like trying to hide, like a jew or political dissident under the Nazi regime, if one was caught one would be done away with in a cruel way.
Thank you for the hour length because I listen in the background while busy and don't like to have to keep stopping to set up another one every 10 minutes.
This was so interesting. I really enjoyed it. I like the fact that you bring other people on to share their research
Makkah
In my opinion researchers instead of looking for some unimportant issues of islam, in my ppininio it is better to accept the present islam existencrllllll
Muslims :Quran is Word of God
History: am I a joke to You ?
@@AffableCounselorNumber1
Source that
Does not Go in Hand with History is fiction
Genesis 19
Sulphur and Brimstone (approved by History)
Quran 54:34( what storm of Stones ) ??
It seems that Jays followers confuse speculation for scientific enquiry
Anything that Jay speculates is lapped up like gospel
There are many points of refutation that any person really seeking the truth should consider in an unbiased manner
As for Quran the Birmingham manuscript has been deeply studied by real scholars who have unanimously supported its authenticity
One comment below by Bart Ehrman
I know Jay hates anyone citing Bart but that’s because he is an eminent bible scholar who is backed by other scholars rather than apologists who fit the narrative to suit their bias
It turns out that there is a 95% chance that these pages were produced between 568 and 645 CE. How good is that? The prophet Mohammed, who (in traditional Islamic teaching) was responsible for producing the Qur’an was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. These pages may have been produced during his lifetime or in a decade or so later.
In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE. Imagine if we found two pages of text that contain portions, say, of the Sermon on the Mount, in almost exactly the same form as we have them in what is now our Gospel of Matthew, and suppose that these pages received a carbon-14 dating of 30 BCE - 40 CE. Would we be ecstatic, OR WHAT???
@Konstantin Ridaya
Have you ever taken a look at scholarly works about NT? It would seem not
It seems that Jays followers confuse speculation for scientific enquiry
Anything that Jay speculates is lapped up like gospel
There are many points of refutation that any person really seeking the truth should consider in an unbiased manner
As for Quran the Birmingham manuscript has been deeply studied by real scholars who have unanimously supported its authenticity
One comment below by Bart Ehrman
I know Jay hates anyone citing Bart but that’s because he is an eminent bible scholar who is backed by other scholars rather than apologists who fit the narrative to suit their bias
It turns out that there is a 95% chance that these pages were produced between 568 and 645 CE. How good is that? The prophet Mohammed, who (in traditional Islamic teaching) was responsible for producing the Qur’an was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. These pages may have been produced during his lifetime or in a decade or so later.
In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE. Imagine if we found two pages of text that contain portions, say, of the Sermon on the Mount, in almost exactly the same form as we have them in what is now our Gospel of Matthew, and suppose that these pages received a carbon-14 dating of 30 BCE - 40 CE. Would we be ecstatic, OR WHAT???
@@inaaranur1611
Quran is Vomit of Umar
Sahih al bukhari 402
Quran verses were cancelled
Sahih al bukhari 2814
@@inaaranur1611
They Were Witnesses kid
They were with Christ
Haf is whom ?
He is not even a Meccan
Thanks for the information. Everyday islam falls apart. I still say the islamic scholars know the truth about their history. Power is more important than truth.
Your brain is falling apart to believe all this conjecture...ha ha ha
Islam is made just few centuries ago by masonic elites and still protected n promoted by them.
@@aaaabraham837 The Standard Islamic Narrative (SIN) has holes in it...
• The existence of an historical prophet named Muhammed, debunked.
• The existence of Mecca(Hejaz) before the 7th century, debunked
• The existence of quoran before the 9th century, debunked
• The existence of a religion called Islam before the 9th century, debunked
• Too many holes, . .... youtututu.🙊🙊🙊
And when you take a DEEP DIVE,.... then you find the holes are getting bigger and bigger with every passing moment....
God bless you Dr. Jay for such a brilliant job.
Islam has fallen...JESUS IS LORD! p
What is good for you is to surrender your life to Jesus Christ Now before it's too lateag
SAVE YOURSELF FROM FALSE ISLAM AND GIVE YOUR LIFE TO JESUS NOW!
Muhammad is dead and cannot save you.
JESUS IS ALIVE FOREVER MORE!!!last updated 23 M
'Red Judaism': Never ever choose a channel name, you have to explain in order not to be misunderstood ;-) Thank you, Jay, for your brave work.
The Trinity
th-cam.com/video/tehPTtR-7xk/w-d-xo.html
And yet, he is super sensitive if anyone even as much as says the word. 🙄 He has shut down the comments on his channel because he is surprised that there are people in the world with different opinions than his. 🤔
@@Speakers154
Just like you removing comments because they don't share the same opinion or view as you.
Jesus is Lucifer the Morning Star the Bible is filthy and full of violence
Joe is a creative thinker...thinking out of the box
m.th-cam.com/video/xWOaG4Da9iA/w-d-xo.html this is out of the box
@John Wick AS IF mzms think at all lol. What a douche
@John Wick prove otherwise big guy. Alls u ever do is spew out insults, NEVER GIVING EVIDENCE OTHERWISE OF ANY KIND. U know why? Bc u don’t have any. U can’t defend Islam bc Islam is a joke. A very bad joke.
What about satellite imaging? Isn't there someone who would invest in viewing the Reservoir area with a satellite?
Great I share your videos
One thing. For sure Mecca of Koran was not in Arabia !
Dude your work is epic.
It really got me in wonder and reflecting on your research 🤔
Peace ✌️
Quite interesting. Although the area of interest is now under water, could anything be learned from aerial photos taken before the dam was built? Google Earth has images taken in 1992 (but switches to low resolution images from 1985 on zooming in). What might be available under the Freedom of Information Act? To be sure, aerial imagery can't accomplish the same as on the ground study, but perhaps something might be found.
One station is arround 40 km, that is the distance sheep, horse and man can travel every day without losing weight and loooks, so they can be sold in full price. Almost all older towns in Europe are arround 40 km from each other.
The analysis from 29:00 until about 43:00 was originally a critique made by me on March 21st and I'm delighted that RJ has taken it on board and advanced a very plausible theory. My view is, as Red Judaism said, was there was multiple ideas about where Ur was, and at least two entered the Islamic tradition, the first is that it was the location of Edessa, hence why the modern city of Sianiurfa bring people on tours of Abraham's birthplace, (this would fit nicely with Joe's idea of Umar as Muhammad as Umar was said to have ruled from there, Mecca could then be viewed as near there) and the second is as in the video today. In support of this is a story found that Abraham took a trip on the flying buraq from Armenia to Mecca. Regardless of where precisely Mecca was imagined to be, the key thing is that it clearly wasn't perceived as down in the Hijaz. This video overall is a great contribution to our collective understanding. Well done to Jay and Joe!
@ Mel, hi again. Thank you for mentioning the original and historic name of the region Armenia 🇦🇲.
@@anoushnewman1247 my pleasure!
@mysotiras 8 Not quite from his end, but I'm holding no grudges.
Just thought of this while listening to the video, Why was the name for Medina changed from it's original Yathrib(?), plus when was the name changed? It has import for both for the Quran and the Constitution probably more.
First greetings from Iraq; Interesting! there is a small town named( Sinjar) also, in the middle region of Iraq, its next to the historical city of Babel, and Babel plays a great role in Jewish history, and there where they say that the tower of Bable was, I mean its logic to assume the similarity of the names might give another prespective to the idea, I have been following the whole episodes till now and I find it very interesting to know new things.
God Bless U Jay nd Joe ur so helpful in understanding the distorted history, Don't runaway from God, Come to Jesus, he will give u rest and everlasting Life ,love u brothers and sisters.
Same thing whats the different, they all claim its the word from God
@mysotiras 8 Is the bible really the word from god? Or its just another myth like aladin
@mysotiras 8 Jesus historicaly exist but is he really god?
Stay objective brother. Love from the heart only
@@rajadaksa2673 Yes it is, it's been put under the microscope in every way and is historically very sound. Not so for Islam, as it's now being put under the microscope too and it's failing badly
Ur of the Chaldees was the small Ur located in the Chaldeans *original* homeland in the north, not the big city Ur located that Sir Leonard Woolley unearthed in SE Mesopotamia and misidentified base on a later Chaldee migration to the southeast. That is why Abraham's relatives lived in the Haran area (near northern Ur) and not around southern Ur. These northern headwaters are also the likely location of Eden.
Now to find long-obscured remains of pre-Osmanic/pre-Utthmanic Qurans with entire missing sections of surahs and perhaps entire surahs around one of those Meccas!
Robin, I'm not sure that they ever existed. I Oodon Lafontain is correct in saying that the documents which became the Quran during the Abasid period were actally a collection of syriac lectionaries that got cobbled together with Jewish mystacism and oral Torah. Joe is actually doing a fantastic series of looking at sections of the Qur'an from a Manikahan perspective as well as from a Noahite Jewish perspective. Shayk Murad over on Sneakers Corner is also working on transliterating the Quran back into Aramaic and is coming to some interesting conclusions as well.
@@CuriousDuffer
Commentary on Birmingham manuscript by scholar Bart Ehrman
I know dear Jay doesn’t like Bart but Bart is backed by all the scholars on this and more
t turns out that there is a 95% chance that these pages were produced between 568 and 645 CE. How good is that? The prophet Mohammed, who (in traditional Islamic teaching) was responsible for producing the Qur’an was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. These pages may have been produced during his lifetime or in a decade or so later.
In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE. Imagine if we found two pages of text that contain portions, say, of the Sermon on the Mount, in almost exactly the same form as we have them in what is now our Gospel of Matthew, and suppose that these pages received a carbon-14 dating of 30 BCE - 40 CE. Would we be ecstatic, OR WHAT???
@@inaaranur1611 The dating of the pages is not the dating of the ink and the script has diacritical marks in it, so it must be late 7th or early 8th century.
@@inaaranur1611 Oh Inaara, did you just assume I'm a Christian? Ouch, hurtful! You monothiests and your assumptions. Consider this though: if your [insert convenient historical amalgimated person] even bothered to write things down rather than willing their materials into existence just for flips and twiggles. (Preferably on something akin to an Ipad with a well thoughout out interface). Then they would just be yet another human whose probably gotten a bit transendental due to the consumption of psychadelics, volcanic vent sniffing, or through intentional dehydration. You see the 'oh but they were so holy' and 'they were men of their time who wouldn't dare to question the will of god,' excuse wears thin when Mani, the Guru's of Sikhism, Joseph Smith, all are preported to have done the same thing. So no, other than seeing how you are ducking the bulk of Jays videos, and placing significanly more faith in carbon dating on a non-dispassionate whim. Then, no I don' see what you are saying at all. But seeing as how you are equating early writings with implicit importance, way to disprove your initial stance in one go. As all religions that can be traced to a founding figure, no matter whether they are monotheistic or not, desperatly care to be justified by having acccess to primary source material. And quoting Bart Ehrman to support the efficacy of pure radio carbon dating??? Really??? The Catholics have a shroud of Turin to sell you if that's the case.
@@inaaranur1611 Many dispute the dating of the folio, the two pages are about Mary and Jesus.
Joe's profile picture is some very nice Arabic calligraphy.
lol hebrew is arabic?
Nisibis is also between Harran and the Ur of the Chaldees. Apparently a known trail.
Actually the underwater "Mecca" could be considered a home of Abraham because his family stopped and lived there for a few years on their way northwest to Haran.
What about the early Qibla, do they meet here?
Wasn't Şanlıurfa the Ur???
Is it possible that ALL the places of worship around the Levant and Arabia could be called "Mecca" or Masjid al Haram? Were there MANY Meccas?
Ha.
You mean like we use the word
colloquially in the
English Language today.
@Kafir Linda Clark Yes, right on the Masjid al Haram can be applied all the way back (using the local language) to Sumer's temple sites, kind of like Mohammad is a title in it's origin.
*allah MECCA,,IT's A SCAM* ✅
Joe why used the modern map instead of 7th century map you could find "Makah" in Mesopotamia before the dam exist.
Can you find one?
Mecca doesn't exist on any 7th century map, that's the problem 'the mother of all cities' is absent from contemporary history.
I think I heard saying that there are no maps from these centuries. Even medieval maps rarely resemble real maps, but there are names at least.
@@mattilatvala4164 There are maps, even some showing small settlements not far from Mecca, but there's none with Mecca on them, but even more damming there's no mention of Mecca in any writings.
When it was under a British mandate after World War I, they may have drawn up a map - the Brits and French were very keen on map making. I'm assuming the dam was built in Saddam's time - for all his many faults he did some infrastructure works. The Ottomans may have also had maps. So there could be names of old settlements where the dam now is. It's not clear from the presentation, if Joe has looked into this.
I wonder who gave permission for this dam and what year
does Ur of the chaldees imply that there was another Ur ?
@INSTINTO It does imply that.
Jay's drinking a beer!! 7.38
Can we scan the lake to see if there was a city there.
@Sgt. Grinch Lodar could be employed for that but requires a low flying plane to do the job in a hostile environment. Maybe in time the weapons of war will fall silent allowing that kind of activity.
I think this location of Meccah is wrong, because people lived in Meccah spoke arabic, this location people didn’t speak arabic.
I think Petra was the real Meccah as Dan Gibson has explained.
J.S. Which is the best English translation of the Quran?
PFANDERFILMS,
What is your basis for worshiping Jesus?
Whereas in the New Testament book there is no verse that shows there is relationship between Jesus and Christianity.
Jay smith you said Mecca is Arabia
Which Arabia are you talking about?
Arabia also refers to the desert in Syria when Paul became a Christian he went into the Arabian desert to preywhich located in northern Syria
Would this Mecca’s be close to a trade root?
It's hard to tell where the overland trade routes of the Silk Road came through, but it is possible that, in the 7th Century, a branch came down (or up!) the river valleys in Mesopotamia to link the West and the East.
When describing a location back then, since they didn't have maps like today, saying a place is between A and B means it is along the way as you travel from A to B. Since the Byzantine chronicle places Mecca between Ur and Carra, you need to look at the path one would travel going between those cities. And your other source, the Journey of Egeriae, conveniently tells us the exact midpoint between those places, Nisibis. So you don't need to go looking further! It is probably in that area. But drawing a line on a modern map between Ur and Carra and looking at what is in the middle makes no sense because that is not how they would have traveled or even envisioned it. But we know the route they traveled because you found it for us. Mecca is along that route and Nisibis is the midway point, if you're looking for that. But "between Ur and Carra" as meant by the Chronicler probably doesn't mean exactly half way, just somewhere between.
I always liked the idea that Petra is the original Mecca just because of it's relationship to Allah of the pre Islamic religions of the area and it's historical basis as an ancient religious site.
Hello a a how u doing buddy?
Why wouldn't they just go down the river from,nisblis
Jay, did you hear that? Abba-sid he said, not Abahaaaasid
Canonization 100th anniversary coming up in less than 2 years
Amen 🙏
Very Interesting and well researched analysis about the lovation of original Mecca. Not it is very much clear that Mecca where it is today is not the original Mecca rather an afterthought of Abbasids to propagate their narrative and twist the early history of Islam. It is very clear from all the evidences that the present location of Mecca was not hospitable in 6the and 7th century at all Mecca was somewhere else and brought down to present location with some ulterior motives of Abbasids.
Joe you know it may even be in Disney land in Florida. What do you think? We can write a book about it. There probably a lot of naive people would believe us.
Did u see any Borakh picture on any Temple coin?makka is there where he was.
Both Joe's and Mel's narratives are amazing. Both have so much to tell us. If Abraham lived in Joe's narrative then certainly his life was replicated in this new Mecca. Because Mecca already existed in joe's narrative. Mel's narrative comes later than Joe's time line. And finally comes the Abbasids narrative. Mixing both the narratives into their own. Look what they did with Mary mother of Jesus. made her a sister of aaron. confusing her with Miriam. The Hannah the mother of Samuel becomes the mother of Mary. do you see the connection.?
Woolley found the "wrong" Ur. It's too far south, AND Joe's Makkah is still too far south as well!
Maybe Markada is Makkah
Why Mecca? Well I read Abd al-Malik the one who built the Dome family came from the first Mecca that is why he made Mecca the place of worship. Everything Islamic ideology starts with Abd al-Malik prior is a gaping black hole.
Except that it is well known that Abdul Malik's Qibla was Jerusalem.
@@caramia479 , Family = Parents either way it was choosing because it meant something to him. That's what I read but could be wrong as nothing is clear in Islam, maybe because it was close to Abraham village one thing we do know it was nothing to do with religion it was political power, religion was away to get wealth and to build on their power. Every empire had a religion story so Islam created one which took over 600 years till they got their first canonized book / story together from pre Islamic stories and myths... Cocktail religion of many stories gone by. Only thing that in the Islam Quran that belongs to them is the stupid verses.
Quran 2:142 refers to two holy cities, Mecca and Old City of Jerusalem. And who is best to explain such prophecy or matter but Elias, the reincarnated Elijah, by God's authority. Moreover such fact is confirmed by God's Signature, the Miracle Code 19, that bears God's attributes, the First(1) and the Last(9), Alpha(1) and Omega(9), the Beginning(1) and the End(9), the Outermost(1) and the Innermost(9).
Ponder over God's Word from the Quran, together with His Proof,
The fools among the people would say, "Why did they change the direction of their Qiblah?" Say, "To God belongs the east and the west; He guides whoever wills in a straight path." (2:142)
* English Gematrical Value (EGV) for the letter N = 50, E =10;
* Coordinates for MECCA = 21°25′21″N 39°49′24″E = 21°25′21″N(50) 39°49′24″E(10) = 21°25′21″50 39°49′24″10;
* Coordinates for OLD CITY of JERUSALEM = 31°46′36″N 35°14′03″E = 31°46′36″N(50) 35°14′03″E(10) = 31°46′36″50 35°14′03″10;
We thus made you an impartial community, that you may serve as witnesses among the people, and the messenger serves as a witness among you. We changed the direction of your original Qiblah only to distinguish those among you who readily follow the messenger from those who would turn back on their heels. It was a difficult test, but not for those who are guided by God. God never puts your worship to waste. God is Compassionate towards the people, Most Merciful. (2:143)
We have seen you turning your face about the sky (searching for the right direction). We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. God is never unaware of anything they do. (2:144)
* Coordinates for Masjid al-Haram = 21°25′21″N 39°49′34″E = 21°25′21″N(50) 39°49′34″E(10) = 21°25′21″50 39°49′34″10
Even if you show the followers of the scripture every kind of miracle, they will not follow your Qiblah. Nor shall you follow their Qiblah. They do not even follow each others' Qiblah. If you acquiesce to their wishes, after the knowledge that has come to you, you will belong with the transgressors. (2:145)
Say, "This was revealed by the One who knows the Secret* in the heavens and the earth. He is Forgiving, Most Merciful." (25:6)
O children of Adam, when messengers come to you from among you, and recite My revelations to you, those who take heed and lead a righteous life, will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve. (7:35)
He is the One who sent to the gentiles a messenger from among them, to recite to them His revelations, purify them, and teach them the scripture and wisdom. Before this, they had gone far astray. (62:2)
God thus explains His revelations for you, that you may understand. (2:242)
* 2142 21°25′21″50 39°49′24″10 31°46′36″50 35°14′03″10 2143 2144 21°25′21″50 39°49′34″10 2145 256 735 622 2242
= 19 x 1127480274 4757627584 3761244755 3370053759 5865375011 3178680742 2181714071 380118.00
Peace from Elijah/Elias.
Great research, another nail in Islam's coffin
t seems that Jays followers confuse speculation for scientific enquiry
Anything that Jay speculates is lapped up like gospel
There are many points of refutation that any person really seeking the truth should consider in an unbiased manner
As for Quran the Birmingham manuscript has been deeply studied by real scholars who have unanimously supported its authenticity
One comment below by Bart Ehrman
I know Jay hates anyone citing Bart but that’s because he is an eminent bible scholar who is backed by other scholars rather than apologists who fit the narrative to suit their bias
States Bart
It turns out that there is a 95% chance that these pages were produced between 568 and 645 CE. How good is that? The prophet Mohammed, who (in traditional Islamic teaching) was responsible for producing the Qur’an was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. These pages may have been produced during his lifetime or in a decade or so later.
In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE. Imagine if we found two pages of text that contain portions, say, of the Sermon on the Mount, in almost exactly the same form as we have them in what is now our Gospel of Matthew, and suppose that these pages received a carbon-14 dating of 30 BCE - 40 CE. Would we be ecstatic, OR WHAT???
In Hindi/Urdu we have word MAKAAN.
The word MAKAAN came from persian.
In persian the word came from Aramaic.
MAKAAN means a house or home or a building or a place or a location or a sanctuary.
Makan is very similar to Makah.
No dear
It's in Burkina Faso
Around 697 John Bar Penkaye: “One of the Arabs, by name Zubayr, made his voice heard from a distance. He made it known about himself that he had come out of zeal for the House of God and he was full of threats against the Westerners, claiming that they were transgreessors of the law. He came to a certain locality in the south where their sanctuary was and lived there.” He also writes that Zubayr was killed at this sanctuary. John Bar Penkaye lived near Edessa, Harran and Nisibis, so "in the south" cannot be near these places. Therefore either the Arab-Byzantine Chronicle written in Spain is wrong about the geography or the much earlier account of John Bar Penkaye is wrong about the geography of the area where he lived. The most obvious explanation is that there were competing opinions about where Abraham lived.
Spot on, Peter! It is a good reminder that even people writing things down at that time didnt necessarily get it right. I think there were lots of opinions floating around back then. I just read an Italian pilgrim's account from 570 AD, who thought Abraham was born in Harran. So confusion reigns. :)
@Peter Harremoes kind of like old maps have the words 'Dragons be here' plus missing what about half the planet?
Makkata is not a physical place.
Bi-batni Makkata means “WITH inneth drained” due to the confrontation : who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them.
Bi-Bakkata simply means courage WITH Courage . A physical place mentioned in the Quran would contradict the Quran that proclaimed nothing should be associated with Allah. But human like to create holy things and places in order to associate god.
Wow! Can you explain it word by word please? Which language is this? Arabic?
Pretty much like "Where's Waldo?" Is there anything about Islam that is valid?
Yeah baby. Just read the book. Don’t believe in wolves wearing sheep clothings. Jay and his side kick Al can sale you the Golden State Bridge in San Fransisco, CA for 50% off. They even got forge copy they can sent you.
@@RobertJohnson-un4ht Maybe, maybe not. Islam has a lot of unexplained holes. Not easily explained & the Muslim Apologists are no where to be found.
@@sheikhboyardee556
I guess you lack knowledge on the topic. There so many study going on Islam and Muhammad by nonMuslim and Muslim. Everything from the prophet personal belongings, words and people who knew the prophet (wives, daughters, friends and etc).have been analyzed. The biggest Christian scholars and church leaders throughout Europe consider him a prophet and great human being. It is the no bodies with hidden agenda,
spinning their web of lies. They try to distorted the truth. Don’t be closed minded. Open your eyes, heart and mind to truth.
@John Hinkle in common law counties the positions of the courts are If a witness is found to have been or to have presented false testimony, in one part, than it is held that no trust can be held in any of that person's testimony. False once all the rest is tainted.
@@RobertJohnson-un4ht I would suggest you read the "book." What they and others say is from research, not idle speculation. The Quran, Hadaths & Surahs are so embarrassing they need to go in the 21st Century.
Even when there is water, they have mapped the ocean floor. How they do this is not my forte.
But with Adam being thrown down to India, India has had a long history, they may have maps. Like the Chinese have records of the Nabatean traders, trade to India would have been worthwhile for them too. And if those from India happened to come to towards the west, they certainly could have also made maps. There were many concepts “borrowed” from India such as what we call Algebra and the concept of “zero” was appropriated from India.
Do not the people of India have a god named Brahma? And look at the name “Abraham”, they are similar. Now in some languages, if you put an “a” in front “theist” you get “atheist”, which is a denial of what the first word was. In India, there were and are many idols. That Abraham headed towards the Mediterranean, he at the same time was going away from India. When God changed Abraham’s name from “Abram” to “Abraham”, He added the “Ham” part, who was a son of Noah. But I do think as there were many wars on the plain of Shinar, these would scatter people to other places and some of the places they would have gone was to India because they also had water.
Again in India, the Muslims have done a lot of destruction but, they have not destroyed all of it and there may be more as I am sure the people of India would have understood the threat to their civilization and did so, so well, that they survived having to live with Islam and not be absorbed completely by it.
To have a conversation about every idea stolen from India by Muslims would be interesting, wouldn’t it?
Now I start believing there's no dearth of fools in our world
Taking care of widows and orphans is a personal responsibility. It is nothing to do with government socialism. The Acts 2 church tried socialism and later other churches had to bail the out.
Its Petra. Proven with prayer walls in mosques, that were built in Mohammed's time. 11. Of these all point directly at Petra. The Main ancient silk road hub. This is where he got the idea, that stealing, is more profitable than trading.
All that crap was already DEBUNKED by Muslims and Non-Muslims.
th-cam.com/video/wX3qZV0SkhM/w-d-xo.html
@@aaaabraham837 Sorry, Dr. Quidi is right, we in the west have no red lines and the knowledge gained in the last 20 years is moving at a faster pace. There will be more for your Polemics teachers to deal with as more comes forward, no matter how hard you try.
@@gilbertjones9157
Who is Dr Quidi?...ha ha ha ..the knowledge led to MORE REVERTS TO ISLAM.
@@aaaabraham837 Sorry you don't know the Doctor. (wink) Your statement is made without support. You continue to fail in addressing the information presented. "All crap" is a fail. It also shows others how much is in you. Since this is new information it shows there is no veritas in saying Debunked. This video does not deal with Petra as your posted video seeks to do but the hometown of Abraham. You should have listened to the video.
@@gilbertjones9157
Read my other comments where I answered Jay with proof.
Where is Mecca according to you?
Maybe macca is Jerusalem
Good white paper. Thanks Joe. In any case the SIN does not hold water ... and they should face up to it or provide the evidence that every one has been waiting for ... Please no off topics.
The Home of Abraham is understood by those who like to redact and abrogate to be how they interpreted history and words in their presented Polemics.
The guy just repeats the same thing 10 times. Good information but you gotta work on your narrative skills dude
I understand the Abbasid motivation to change the location of Mecca. But why choose to place it in the middle of nowhere so far south away from your political power center of Bagdad. Also, pilgrimage was a big money maker and the abbasids would expect huge number of believers to visit the place. So again why so far away from civilization with no obvious source of fresh water?
@Kevan in an earlier video it was said that the cultural(?) or ancestral belief held that one prays in a southernly direction for the Abbys. Plus it was not an Abby that picked the spot but a rebellious Ummy governor who pull out of Petra and went south to the Hijaz then sought assistance from the Persian Abbys. The pilgrimage shifted from Petra to Mecca (Hijaz) with no dead to be brought. Previous generations of Nabbies expats were cut off from both reducing numbers.
As I explained to Joe in response to his first rendition of this hypothesis, in which he made the whole of Iraq into Mecca (!), if you go from Nisibis and go southeast you end up with a distance of less than 10 stations. I originally pointed out what a station is and how to measure it, but he seems to have not fully taken this on board. With his new location for Ur, it is only 7-8 stations to Harran! 🤔 So why go through Nisibis at all? Hmm. In any case, while it is good to check out these early sources, part of what we are trying to do is to break the sources: did the witness get it wrong? Witnesses sometimes do. While assuming all the sources will corroborate is wishful thinking in reality, they do contradict each other because some are just plain in error, hence why it is difficult to get easy answers.
Even without history we all know today’s Mecca isn’t ancient Mecca and with as many abrogations and changes in the Quran, let alone the religion, it’s a wonder to me why mzms don’t recognize this. For me, the very fact that the direction of worship was changed at all speaks volumes. But then again, I’m a sensical and logical kinda person. Mzms are NOT.
It seems that Jays followers confuse speculation for scientific enquiry
Anything that Jay speculates is lapped up like gospel
There are many points of refutation that any person really seeking the truth should consider in an unbiased manner
As for Quran the Birmingham manuscript has been deeply studied by real scholars who have unanimously supported its authenticity
One comment below by Bart Ehrman
I know Jay hates anyone citing Bart but that’s because he is an eminent bible scholar who is backed by other scholars rather than apologists who fit the narrative to suit their bias
It turns out that there is a 95% chance that these pages were produced between 568 and 645 CE. How good is that? The prophet Mohammed, who (in traditional Islamic teaching) was responsible for producing the Qur’an was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. These pages may have been produced during his lifetime or in a decade or so later.
In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE. Imagine if we found two pages of text that contain portions, say, of the Sermon on the Mount, in almost exactly the same form as we have them in what is now our Gospel of Matthew, and suppose that these pages received a carbon-14 dating of 30 BCE - 40 CE. Would we be ecstatic, OR WHAT???
Mzms entire faith is based on the idea of their supriority over others, truth doesn't matter to them, it is al about authority, that authority can come from any of the 5 t's of their belief twisting, turning terror, taqiya and tantrum. Notice that truth is not one of the 5 t's
@@inaaranur1611 yes we know u think this. U only copy n pasted this in every comment section 🙄. Ur about as original as ur qrappyquran
@@universalflamethrower6342 amen on that!!! What’s funny tho is that if they read their quran with the words that are there, they’d know that their god gave that authority (and the land) to the Jws lol
@@temporaryaccount5307 it took me a lot of YT videos and reading the Narrative with holes to get a grasp on their mindset. I have a reasonable amount of experience with mzms it can be good or bad but its almost always on the physical level. Somehow a part of their thoughtprocess seems cornered off. The copy paste respons is like a pavlovian pre--programmed response which kicks in as soon as stuff gets difficult, I have witnessed that in real life a couple of times. It was hard to come to grips with this coming from a liberal anything goes truth is relative mindset.
Petra is Mecca
Basically. Islam evolved out of Christianity and Zoroastrianism in the same way that early Judaism evolved out of Egyptian and Sumerian polytheism. A combination of subtle misinformation, some luck, and a lot of murder.
The Bible places Abraham's journey in the North in Mesopotamia!
@Forgiving Fragrance You have heard about the Dead Sea Scrolls? Those documents come from before Jesus. And the Dead Sea Scrolls that have been found REITERATE exactly what is in the Old Testament of today. You are wrong.
@@AffableCounselorNumber1 It doesn't matter! We don't CLAIM to have an uncreated, eternal Old or New Testament. You Muslims do. The myriad of "versions" we have, all come from the thousands of scrolls and scroll fragments that are preserved today. Remember, your Allah stated that NO ONE can change Gods word. If the Bible IS CORRUPTED then the many many references to Biblical scriptures in Quran are corrupted too! Hahahahahaha! And your god allowed his own word to be corrupted. Either way, you lose! If the Bible isn't corrupted, then Quran is all a lie. If the Bible IS CORRUPTED, then Quran is WRONG! Hahahahah!
@Forgiving Fragrance The Standard Islamic Narrative (SIN) has holes in it...
• The existence of an historical prophet named Muhammed, debunked.
• The existence of Mecca(Hejaz) before the 7th century, debunked
• The existence of quoran before the 9th century, debunked
• The existence of a religion called Islam before the 9th century, debunked
• Too many holes, . .... youtututu.🙊🙊🙊
And when you take a DEEP DIVE,.... then you find the holes are getting bigger and bigger with every passing moment....
God bless you Dr. Jay for such a brilliant job.
Islam has fallen apart..JESUS IS LORD! p
What is good for you is to surrender your life to Jesus Christ Now before it's too lateag
SAVE YOURSELF FROM FALSE ISLAM AND GIVE YOUR LIFE TO JESUS NOW!
Muhammad is dead and cannot save you.
JESUS IS ALIVE FOREVER MORE!!!la
*allah MECCA,,IT's A SCAM* ✅
Why are you promoting a Jew promoting Noachide laws? You need to study Judaism, it is every bit as deceptive and dangerous as Islam.
My main critique of Sneakers corner is that he promotes "fringe theory of the day" with different degrees of factual support and they all point in different directions. As long as they point away from the standard islamic narrative - they are promoted.
This makes the knowledge very balkanized and it does not help to form a coherent picture of what actually happened.
Jay, please don't fall into that trap as it confuses everyone and will hurt your credibility in the long run.
Do the research, form your hypothesis once you have gathered enough knowledge and then present it.
I still wait for the clear and easily understandable episode where you present the most plausible timeline of events that led up to the current situation.
Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved. John 3:16
@@1CT1 Yes, I know, and I do.
I don't understand how that's a relevant reply to my comment - nor do I think you understood my intentions or what message I was trying to convey.
I want islam to crumble and fall just as much as any sane person - and I'm trying to give my input to Jay on how to make that happen as effectively as possible.
@@1CT1 Sorry if I'm being a bit autistic in my replies, but I really like things to be systematically ordered and presented.
Dr. Smith spends quite some time addressing this in the beginning of the clip.
Niklas Paulsson Hello Niklas Paulson. Nice to meet you. Good to know that believe in Jesus, and despise the false teaching of Islam. The purpose of me posting John 3:16 the way in which I had, was to spread the word across youtube as much as I can to encourage people to believe in Jesus and to save unbelievers. Reading you comment when I had first viewed it I was unsure and thus lead or the post here.
Have a wonderful rest of your day/night everyone, may the LORD bless you all, and farewell.
Quran
chapter 114 sura
In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.
1. Say, “I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind.
2. The King of mankind.
3. The God of mankind.
4. From the evil of the sneaky whisperer.
5. Who whispers into the hearts of people.
6. From among jinn and among people.”
1. In the name of The Father, 2. The King of Kings the Son, 3. The Holy Spirit
@@dwy8569
Quran
chapter 112 sura
In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.
1. Say, “He is God, the One.
2. God, the Absolute.
3. He begets not, nor was He begotten.
4. And there is none comparable to Him.”
@@ttt3258 Yes exactly this is the belief of the Monophysite Coptic Christians, that Jesus is a Messiah, and a Word from him, and a Spirit from him, but God is one alone, and he does not give birth and no one gave birth to him. You can win $1000 on Red Judaism channel if you prove the Christology in the Quran cannot be explained from a Christian perspective, using Corpus.Quran.com . Not Abbasid translations
@@dwy8569 So God Is One , but some time three gods , check your math , or is it new math just to fit with everything . ,, God the Creator Is One , with no partners
@@ttt3258 That’s the heresy of the Arabian Tritheists who believed there are three separate Gods which the Quran condemns, and the Arabian modalists who say the Father is the Messiah which the Quran condemns again. Yes the Father is NOT the Messiah nor his Word nor a Spirit from him but all these things emanate from the Father and have existed eternally with the Father, the Father is One as with the Coptic Church. I am not my toenail but my toenail is part of me. Do not say three - desist! You refuse to understand the Christological heresies of Arabia at that time and cling to the Abbasid interpretation.
Charan>Harran
I guess anyone can lie like you guys. I guess the real Mecca could have been in Egypt or maybe in Saudi Arabia like what written in the books. In the end it doesn’t really matter. People are comfortable where it is and great the history it has.
WOW! - 2 fast speakers...ALL those theories?
Your questions are completely wrong...IF Mecca existed, IF Mohammad (saw) existed, IF the Quran existed...Obviously they existed as Mecca is here today as it was yesterday and the day before...so is Mohammad (saw) , as his grave is in Medina with 2 of his companions being visited by Muslims CONTINIOUSLY since their passing...and the Quran with millions of Muslims knowing it by heart (Hafiz).
Your question must be IF Mecca, Mohammad (saw), the Quran is what the Muslims claim and WHY?
YOUR THEORIES
are all conjecture and what makes this exercise worse, is that you are bias and HATE ISLAM, making all your rhetoric null and void.
If the seed of the devil could move JERUSALEM they would have done that too bless
It seems that Jays followers confuse speculation for scientific enquiry
Anything that Jay speculates is lapped up like gospel
There are many points of refutation that any person really seeking the truth should consider in an unbiased manner
As for Quran the Birmingham manuscript has been deeply studied by real scholars who have unanimously supported its authenticity
One comment below by Bart Ehrman
I know Jay hates anyone citing Bart but that’s because he is an eminent bible scholar who is backed by other scholars rather than apologists who fit the narrative to suit their bias
It turns out that there is a 95% chance that these pages were produced between 568 and 645 CE. How good is that? The prophet Mohammed, who (in traditional Islamic teaching) was responsible for producing the Qur’an was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. These pages may have been produced during his lifetime or in a decade or so later.
In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE. Imagine if we found two pages of text that contain portions, say, of the Sermon on the Mount, in almost exactly the same form as we have them in what is now our Gospel of Matthew, and suppose that these pages received a carbon-14 dating of 30 BCE - 40 CE. Would we be ecstatic, OR WHAT???
@@inaaranur1611 so you’re saying the quranic text may have existed before the time of the prophet of Islam?
All religions are men made no one will no the creator of the universe.the people want to understand who and how we’re made but never mind no answer
Praise be to Jesus Christ
Le Grand Secret de l’Islam of Lafontaine has mentioned it. It’s the Ismaelites in Syria.
Peter von Sivers also said it began in Syria. But neither of them were able to say exactly where. So Joe has done gone further.
@John Wick Man o man your lack of full history is amazing almost mormonish.
@John Wick Really? What’s the definition of being a Christian, the Jewish Messiah follower?
Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved. John 3:16
Believe in Jesus and you become a sinner by birth due to sin done by Adam and Eve.
@@nationalistthought4639 If you were Jewish you would know that original sin has a Judaic basis. And you wouldn't be posting on saturday.
Who wrote that? God?
John 14:15
@John Wick Since you don't now then you are certainly not a Muslim.
Lol. Jay Smith trying so hard to destroy islam and yet millions rrvert to islam yearly. Lol
If you let muslims leave it no one will stay in it. But we know how you think.
you guys are making it extremely complicated by making a whole series without having all the answers or even a complete theory.
the other day you were saying muhammad may be a title for Jesus and the next day al fadi posts a video saying muhammad is a fraud. try to be consistent.
once you’ve got the theory straight then make a video or write a book.
You should watch Joe's Channel. He has always had a consistent theory. Muhammad refers to *part* of Jesus. And it is a name which Jesus's Jewish followers named themselves after. So one of those followers was a Jewish Emir who conquered Syria in the 630s before he converted. Joe can even explain every verse of the Umayyad Quran from that point of view. It is totally astounding.
I didn’t watch the videos u mentioned, but I can already tell u ur misunderstanding. The Arabs very clearly meant for mhamed to replace Jesus while mhamed the arab man is clearly a fraud.
It seems that Jays followers confuse speculation for scientific enquiry
Anything that Jay speculates is lapped up like gospel
There are many points of refutation that any person really seeking the truth should consider in an unbiased manner
As for Quran the Birmingham manuscript has been deeply studied by real scholars who have unanimously supported its authenticity
One comment below by Bart Ehrman
I know Jay hates anyone citing Bart but that’s because he is an eminent bible scholar who is backed by other scholars rather than apologists who fit the narrative to suit their bias
It turns out that there is a 95% chance that these pages were produced between 568 and 645 CE. How good is that? The prophet Mohammed, who (in traditional Islamic teaching) was responsible for producing the Qur’an was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. These pages may have been produced during his lifetime or in a decade or so later.
In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE. Imagine if we found two pages of text that contain portions, say, of the Sermon on the Mount, in almost exactly the same form as we have them in what is now our Gospel of Matthew, and suppose that these pages received a carbon-14 dating of 30 BCE - 40 CE. Would we be ecstatic, OR WHAT???
@@temporaryaccount5307
t seems that Jays followers confuse speculation for scientific enquiry
Anything that Jay speculates is lapped up like gospel
There are many points of refutation that any person really seeking the truth should consider in an unbiased manner
As for Quran the Birmingham manuscript has been deeply studied by real scholars who have unanimously supported its authenticity
One comment below by Bart Ehrman
I know Jay hates anyone citing Bart but that’s because he is an eminent bible scholar who is backed by other scholars rather than apologists who fit the narrative to suit their bias
States Bart
It turns out that there is a 95% chance that these pages were produced between 568 and 645 CE. How good is that? The prophet Mohammed, who (in traditional Islamic teaching) was responsible for producing the Qur’an was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. These pages may have been produced during his lifetime or in a decade or so later.
In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE. Imagine if we found two pages of text that contain portions, say, of the Sermon on the Mount, in almost exactly the same form as we have them in what is now our Gospel of Matthew, and suppose that these pages received a carbon-14 dating of 30 BCE - 40 CE. Would we be ecstatic, OR WHAT???
@@inaaranur1611 hah! A mzm talking about science?! That’s hilarious 🙄! Any person really seeking truth should consider” that Islam doesn’t even have science (or history or archaeology or early Arabic literature or complete manuscripts or same manuscripts or real life events or...) so spare us the “truth seeking” babble. The whole world knows women don’t have semen, genders aren’t determined by who orgasms first and the sun doesn’t chase the moon over the flat earth w shooting stars as missiles! Ugh! As for ur buddy Bart, it’s amusing to me that u parrot mzms LOVE try using him as the voice for all biblical scholars, yet when he also says Jesus was real and did too die on the cross, he suddenly doesn’t know everything! And btw ur Birmingham book proves nothing except that it’s stories are COPIED! As for the rest of ur comment, u lost me at Bart. Ur just another copy paste mzm who doesn’t have an independent thought to save his soul!
So you’ve changed your tune again. Last time you said Mecca was Petra and not you say it’s in northern Syria. What will you say tomorrow? Ahh the Christian logic!
lol this shows islam is a man made cult cause all the sources we have outside of islamic propoganda (quran, tafseer and ahadith) point to different locations... just like the character "muhammad". so the logic of islam is oh my god wrote a book and its true even if history and archaeology disagrees
didnt allah changed his tune too abrogating verses??? why keep abrogations and da'if hadiths anyway???
He didn't change his logic, Islamic history is so badly recorded it's impossible to denote where the first mecca was located.
Joe is a Jew not a Christian. This is the first time Jay has introduced the Jewish ideas on Mecca to his channel.
@@empatia2794 it doesnt matter... i read an article lately on thetorah.com it was about hagar's well hebrew tenach scholars located hagar's well close to Petra.
Its Petra. Been proven.
Qibla and ancient Mecca were merged into modern Mecca.
@@fantasia55 There is no ruins of anything prior to the 8th century. Mecca and madina were move by buhkari.
Christians, what is the mark of the beast in Revelation 14? Millions will go lost because of it. Why do you still do not know?
If you are interested in a Jewish perspective, the mark of the beast is the absence of Torah so I think the Beast is Anti-Judaism.
@@Bei-Abedan please give Biblical reasons for that. Does the world only revolve around Jews? The Creator did create human beings not only Jews. Please analyse the first word Bereshit in Hebrew. See which words it contains in the sequence of the word.
@@williamwaterford8114 "Does the world only revolve around Jews?" That is an example of an Anti-Judaic comment so there is no point in any further discussion.
@@Bei-Abedan the mark of the beast is sunday worship. The beast is the one who is going to enforce it.
The Bible explains that, it'll be a mark put on you to say you've accepted the "Antichrist". It sounds silly that anyone would do that, but of course he won't be saying "I'm the Antichrist", and he'll seem like the solution to the world's problems, although will be totally rejecting the God of the Bible. Without this mark, in the areas he controls, one would not be able to buy and sell, probably all sorts of checkpoints. To not take the mark would be like trying to hide, like a jew or political dissident under the Nazi regime, if one was caught one would be done away with in a cruel way.
Immaterial evidence Doesn't work properly.