KNOTTERS UP! Fixing the knotter problem on my Oliver 720 small square baler
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ก.ค. 2024
- If you watched this year's first cutting video, you saw the the 720 baler was having an issue with the right side knotter. Sometimes they would hold, other times they would explode into a cloud of hay as they came out of the thrower. I found a couple of issues that should make it work better. Tune in an see the magic of a knotter!
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Very good "vid!" Mr. Losey's shop in the back ground looked neat and clean. I was surprised he didn't at least take a compressor and blow the work area clean before the OJT aspects. Thanks much. I have a 30 year old New Holland baler and as noted in the early going, it's novel how the knotters haven't changed hardly any for a 100 years.
Thanks! I don't think this could be invented today with a ton of sensors and a computer to time it all.
My Dad; a farmer and a lifelong farm machinery mechanic with a dealer; helped New Holland perfect their twine tier. Lost tip of a finger doing it. Since he worked for an equipment dealer we had the first square baler in the area; and for some years (1950s) our neighborhood had a "baling gathering" instead of a "threshing gathering". My first field job on a tractor was driving our Oliver 88 pulling that baler; had some exciting times in our hilly fields in northeast Iowa. I was so young and small that to get the clutch in on the 88 I had to stand on it with both feet and and use the steering wheel as leverage to get the clutch in. An older brother stacking bales on the wagon was my backup. As I remember, we had very few problems with broken bales.
That’s a great story thanks for sharing this.
My dealer sent me to a New Holland school for balers. After that, I spent most of my summers on the road between service calls. Ironically, most of the repairs were adjusting a bolt about a half turn. The owners manuals provided very good info on diagnosing issues and how to repair them.
The Oliver manual is the same way. There are pictures of of bad knots so you can compare and adjust the right part.
Back in the early 70's I ran a 24T and a 336 John Deere baler. We use to call the bill hook the eagles beak, we also had to adjust our twine arm by bending it. I don't ever remember breaking one when we did that, but I know a guy can, real easy. Dad always wanted the twine arm to barely rub the bill hook, but not scrape it hard. As you know, all these parts work in unison to make a knot, from the twine disc holding tension on the twine to the twine sweep pushing the twine out of the beak/bill. I do have a square baler now-a-days, but I only do a few bales, maybe 25 or so every other year. Good luck on the rest of the project, have a great weekend. Thanks Randy for mowing my lawn!!!😁
I’m so glad the round baler was invented. 🍻👍.
They're hard to beat, but horse people like squares, and that basically comes down to horses are wasteful eaters.
Chris file works with a forward motion nice job
We used a jeweler's file and hone to sharpen the knives. Emery cloth to polish the Bill-hooks because if the twine cannot slip off easily you have problems. The written-in-stone rule is that after you have got the baler knotter working perfectly, watched it thru maybe 20 bales and it worked every time, you would get back in the service truck and just before the baler is leaving your view of it in the rearview mirrors, it misses a bale. Standard items to take with you when you went on a baler call were Bill-hooks, bill hook drive gears, the stripper arm, pins, and cotter pins, and a gallon jug of frozen water to have something to drink because balers never needed repairs until it was 100 in the shade.
Testify brother! I'll feel better about this one when it's working at capacity.
@@ThatOliverGuyChris The real problem was that the baler would run and work great at 540 PTO speed. As soon as you were leaving the driver would pull the throttle open way past PTO speed. It was always hard to explain to them if they ran it at a rated PTO speed they would make more bales per day. Busted bales take time to feed them thru again when the baler could have been moving making good bales. If one were custom baling running bales thru again did push up the bale count at the baler but not at the barn.
@@bigun447 dad always had me run a couple notches below full throttle. The knotters don't like overspeed. Even our gehl rep said the round balers did a better job around 450 rpm.
Until you were sharpening the knives I didn’t fully understand which surface was the actual knife. Thanks for explaining how the knotter works and basically “reverse” engineering it for us. It finally clicked for me when you demonstrated with the old bill hook…it took a second to understand the hook rotates on more than one axis. My bailing experience was spending a hot summer as a 16 year old custom bailing with my brother-in-law; nothing will make you appreciate a twine bailer more than stacking thousands of wire bails. 💪🏻 If it doesn’t kill ya it’ll definitely make you stronger.
I never handled a wire bale, but I can see it is something you don't do without gloves.
Very informative video. I always wondered how a small baler made the knots. Thank you Chris
Glad it was helpful!
Chris years ago the people designing the equipment were sure intelligent to come up with that mechanical way of getting things accomplished. Nice to see that you broke out the Oliver 880. Hopefully you have an awesome weekend. Thanks Michael
Thanks! Getting some much needed rain, so no field work today.
Yes intelligent they were and to think they didn't have computers 😂
very helpful vid for anyone that has a small square baler.
Thanks for the tutorial! 👍👍👍👍👍 We bought our MF 120 baler 47 years ago. My Dad passed away 34 years ago - and in that time, I've never sharpened the knives on the knotters. I'm sure they need it. But, I hate to mess with it because it's working.
That's my method, if it ain't broke, don't mess with it.
Knotters are fun to work on. Ive always enjoyed workings with them. You learn alot really quickly out in the field with them
A knotter is like a woman. Don't try to adjust them unless you know how they work. 😂
I have a 520 Oliver baler that was bought new in 1975 or 76 used 2 years and sat in the barn ever sense, My cousin said it may have had a total on 3000 bales threw it and he stacked most of that working for the guy that bought it new. Its always sat in a barn and its sitting in my barn with my other 520 baler I have. My plan is to get it out go threw it and put it behind my 770 and bale some with it just for the fun of it ! LOL Only difference between them is the old one is a short Toung and the newer one is a long Toung and it has the White decals on it and it was the last new Oliver baler McHenry's sold according the them. I love how they feed in as it is so smooth in feeding the chamber, Oliver had the right idea on the roto feed ! Thanks for this video as I will be pulling my knifes out to sharpen them and I just got to the master do it so I know I can do it now ! Thank You Chris ! Bandit
I look forward to seeing it make hay on your channel, Bandit.
Thank you for this Chris. The international square baler I use looks very very similar and has an issue tieing on one side so this information is very beneficial
I think they're both based on the deering knotter, so the solutions should be the same. Hopefully 😂
Like you I spent many hours bailing making thousands of hay, straw and alfalfa bails. The brands of machines I used, case, new holland, international and John Deere all worked basically the same. The other thing that can cause open bales are the hay dogs. If the dogs are broken or the hay dog springs are weak or broke the hay will back on the strings and will cause open bales.
I've had broken hay dog springs before. They will definitely cause a problem.
I remember one of the best things about the new round baler besides not having to lift the bales by hand was no knotters to mess up your day.😉
No knots at all, and they don't fall apart. Go figure. LOL
Great tutorial! If I ever need to fix a knotter, will definitely reference this.
Looks good Chris
I watched your video, its almost a copy of the information we got at the baler school our Agco dealer puts on every winter. Our big square balers have 6 knotters and here in Nebraska the dealer is 160 miles away so we need to now as much as we can. The knife sharpness is very important important. On these big balers they made the knives replaceable, wish the older ones were that way.
Anti-seize those shafts, will come apart a lot easier next time you have to work on it. As for the spring and nut, measure the length of spring on the other side, they need to be same. It's spring tension, at least that's how it was on our old JD baler. As you said, these knotters are all the same design no matter the brand name.
I don't know about the Oliver but, I know the JD 14T, that drive chain to pull the needle arms, that also had to be timed. Don't ask me how I know, I've seen those needle arms get snapped off because of timing between the plunger and arms. Wes Pandy (Onelonelyfarmer), did a video on knotters several years ago.
As a kid, we had an old JD 14T, miss that baler at times. Dad used to make our bales around 110 lbs - 120 lbs. Every year we did around 4000 bales. Great video as always. Cheers :)
Measuring the spring would be the best method, because like you said, it's about the spring tension, not the size.
I sell a lot of square bales to horse gals. They don't like bales that weigh more than they do. 😂
That makes me think of a story. It was around the time I graduated, so I was young and strong. There had been a drought in the south, and farmers here in Michigan were donating hay and the railroad had donated space on some railcars. We donated, and as a young buck I was in the hotbox stacking in those railcars. The day the local news showed up was the day the most farmers showed up. One guy backed his enclosed semi to the railcar , got out and spent all his time in front of the camera. That was the nastiest hay I had ever seen. They had obviously been rained on multiple times. It took 2 men to drag each bale onto the railcar. He should have been ashamed of his "donation", those things were just giant compost bricks.
That was a great tutorial. I wish that I had a resource like that the summer that I was trying to get the kniotter to work on our John Deere 346.. The knitters on your Oliver look pretty much Identical. It would have saved me a lot of time.
Great video
Thanks!
I used it last week to scout fields.
A guy at work just got one of these 720 balers for $200 from an old farmer. It was sitting in the weeds with tires rotted off. He put tires on it and took it to the field and it worked perfect!! Wish I had found it.
They are a good machine with lots of capacity.
We were having problems on a New Holland baler that was traced down to one of the porcelain insulators the twine runs through. It had a groove worn in it and had cracked, so the twine was hanging up on it. All we had to do was loosen the u-bolt that holds it and rotate the insulator 180 degrees. Problem fixed!
That's why knotters will make you pull your hair out. There are so many things that can go wrong, and the all result with a bad knot.
Honing stone works good
170 knot strength is common here, some guys use 210 in 2 tie balers. 210 is common in the 3 tie.
Then we jump up to the big balers.. 450-550.
Round baler twine is.. or was 110..
Brand of twine makes a difference too..
All the dealers that used to be here, if they had a baler with knotter issues they couldn't figure out, they'd put New Holland twine in. Almost always worked.
I guess knot strength is something I hadn't paid much attention to. We always sold quality twine, and I had a better part of a pallet left, but that ran out last year. Lesson learned!
I've been told that most balers, yours included, have Deering knotters. IH used the McCormick knotters on most of their balers. They are slightly heavier than binder knotters but the same workings.
I fixed both IH and NH balers. On an IH baler, if the knotter failed once every 100 bales, that was normal. On the NH baler, if it missed one knot out of 1,000, it was time to repair it.
A friend gave me some new Holland knotter parts to see if they would work. The keyway was 180 degrees out from the Oliver, so a guy would have to do both sides, but I think the complete assembly could work.
Massey and IH had way different then new Holland Ford deere and Oliver, those actually remind more of deeres style of knotters
Nice job Chris. My uncle was a New Holland dealer and the mechanic for decades. He taught me about knotters. Primarily, knotter function is like marriage- its about the relationships. Overall timing of course, but how the needles relate to the twine disc, how the knife arm relates to the bill hook, and the knife position relative to the length of the tails. the knife arm and needles are malleable and I know from experience that needles are weldable. With your go pro, I assume you can watch the action in slowmo. What a benefit that is. Anyway, thanks for the trip down memory lane. !
Thanks! I do have a couple of slo mo videos of the knotters in action. I need to hide one on the underside where the magic happens.
Our local New Holland dealership has a display with the knotter part of a baler. It's run by a hand crank so you can see it work in slow motion.
That would be cool to see in action!
@@ThatOliverGuyChris this is a video of it. th-cam.com/video/Yu49uPqJVqk/w-d-xo.html
Magic ! Got it !😂
Best explanation I have.
@@ThatOliverGuyChris 😆🤣
Our main business is convertiing 4x5 rounds into 32 to34 in small squares, thousands of them for Contract sales to TSC.... The small square baler is the main machine followed by a machine to put them into bundles that can be mechanically loaded into a semi trailer ....Our first Bundler was a Bale bandit.....that secured the bundle with 1/2 in steel bands..... now that was a marvel of automatic crimping the two bands together...... but it had it's faults so we swapped over to a Bale Baron..... It used the same basic Knotters that the big bale balers use....In that.one needle sweep ties 2 knots..... one to secure the bundle in the chamber and one at the beginning of the following bundle........ We use 240 twine and 450 twine........
I've often considered re-baling some of the rounds into squares in the off season. Do you have an automated way to feed the round bale into the square baler?
Simpsons round bale feeder tables..... Powered off tractor hydraulics.......With some gear changes a needle valve flow control and some sort of retarder to keep the pickup from snatching hay from the last chain table.... it feeds the baler pretty consistant..... Two men can convert and load 39. 21count Bale Baron bundles in about 4 hours. from about 42 4xx5 rounds
@@farmingforfunandprofit940 do you have a video on that. I swear I've seen that on TH-cam.
Sure Do,,,,,,,,Not very informative because it is my Son's business and he doesn't allow much in the "shop Window........
Nice job Chris, with fixing it. I had issues with the Jd baler and It was a build up of old grass on this spring loaded plate behind the notters. It was jammed and was not allowing this plate to seat properly. It was a simple thing. Glad I did not have to remove the knotters.
It can be so many things. I had a broken spring on a hay dog and that would keep it from knotting. I keep an eye on those springs now.
I would check the tension on my billhook and see if anything is war because it might not be holding the twine tight enough
I work for the foundry that makes bill hooks for John Deere and can confirm they look almost exactly like the one you have in your Oliver baler. Made in Hartford Wi. We haven't made any lately so they might have transferred production of them to China unfortunately.
Seems like the supply chain issues of the last couple years would have taught these companies something about sourcing stuff from the other side of the planet.
So the International balers from like the 47 on up, use a different knotter system than most. They don't have tucker fingers and they don't have twine knives that move to cut the twine. They have stationary twine knives that are supposed to cut the twine just based on it dragging across it as the bale fed through. This required the knife to be extremely sharp. They also don't have wiper arms, they relied on the tension from the bale moving rearward to pull the knot off the billhook. That's all as I remember it, though I could be wrong on a few of those steps. My grandpa's brother has a 400 series International baler, and grandpa's John Deere 336 would bale circles around it.
Interesting. That must be the knotter that gets the complaints on here. Thanks for sharing!
This is the first time for watching your program. The trend of people changing wording around, they are just bales not square bales and they are not even square. Second they ARE ARE NOT round bales bales they are ROLLED HAY 😊
We have a New Holland baler that gets temperamental with the knotters sometimes and won't tye right. It makes a mess in the wagon
Must be you have a thrower! I know how that goes.
AFH205783 is the Deere hook .
Thanks!
Knife arm should drag across the bill hook. Jake Ziegler went through the knotters on his 720 and said in one his videos that Hesston ( IIRC, model 4500? see: th-cam.com/video/mV_14kxRw-A/w-d-xo.html at the 4:40 mark ) small bale knotters are identical and that back ( 5yrs. ago) then parts where available. New Holland knotters require the knife arms to drag significantly over the bill hooks to get the knot off, so get them tight enough so the arm doesn't wear a lot, but still has a good drag over the bill hook.
Oliver sold the baler line to Hesston and the 720 became the 4500, so parts are identical.
The more I think about it, I bet the knife arm having such a big gap was probably the problem as much as anything. It's just touching now.
Would the timing procedure for a 620 be the same? Or close?
Should be the same
Curious, the amounts under the tool box lid for the entire season? If that is the case that baler doesn't have many through it.
I'd say that's right. We pastured most of the cattle back then, and once we got a round baler we only square baled straw for hogs. Then we built a MOF hog barn, so no straw and it sat a few years until my sister went horse crazy, then it went back to work. I bet that worn billhook was original.
@@ThatOliverGuyChris Interesting, I don't think you would find a baler around me with numbers like that through it from that vintage. I always found their feeding system interesting but never was around one, and I only ever seen one in person at a sale around here. Did they build a pickup with closer teeth spacing like NH's super sweep for them as an option?
@@tpfromcentralpa1692 the 720 was that version. They made a 710 that had a narrower pickup with the tines spaced farther, and if I remember correctly it had one less row on the pickup.
Chris I’m not criticizing but you just hurt my brain. Pulling a file the wrong way on that knife. Files are one way directional. Look at the teeth. A file must be pushed from the tip to tail. Never dragged backwards. When sharpening a blade you should push the file against the cutting edge to prevent a curled over burr. I hope this helps in future file usage.
I knew they are one way, but I can never remember which. I figured I'm 50% right if the go back and forth. That's a better success rate than wife my gives me. 😂
When you said “Twip the Twine” I was expecting a cartoon rabbit to jump out of the bale chamber.
It's twu, it's twu. Oh my it's Twu,!
@@ThatOliverGuyChris I hope we never see one of those jump out on film 🤣🤣🤣
@@rosstheoliverman 😂😂😂 excuse me while I whip this out
You meant wabbit, wight?
@@corydriver7634 wasckly wabbit, that is.
Not sure why you didn't clean the whole thing off
How much HP IS A SUPER 88 diesel
About 54 hp from the factory.
Why would you tear the Goodwin apart when it's working why don't you do the one that's not working and put the new billhook on that one
What you're doing don't make sense to me
Are we watching the same video? The right side was the worn billhook, and the side that got replaced.
Point your TV at the mirror and then watch the video. It should make sense then.