Should G2 Have Jumped?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ย. 2024
- Is what G2 did at Champions last week - i.e. jumping off the map so as to save - unsportsmanlike?
Should they be fined, praised or simply tolerated for their, let’s say, strategic maneuver?
Lastly - and most importantly - is it insane that we’re even having this conversation?
Probably. But we’re here. So let’s have it.
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its disrespectful to forfeit the match, its disrespectful to forcefully throw the game so it ends faster, it is NOT disrespectful to do a move that they believed will help them win the match. twitter dude is delusional
we going back to dying to spike
I think it should not be allowed like cs
Smartest Twitter user
Agreed
Don't hate the player, hate the game. Knowing the rules is the first step to winning.
twitter is a fever dream istg, i really dont want to go to that hell hole
its part of the map design... its the correct strategic move and there are no rules against it.
True. Blame the map designer
I wouldn't say it was the correct strategic move when you are down quite a few rounds but it certainly is a viable option.
@@redroman4214It is tho. There was a similar strategy in early valorant where everyone died to an ally ability because you get an ult point for dying and this way you deny the enemy the money AND ult point in a round you were probably gonna lose anyway.
@@phoenixflamegames1 but just as Lothar said, if you do it - at least make the opponent waste some utility.
@@over9000lord tell that to the map designer who give a literal suicide cliff at the spawn. Because it's more beneficial for G2 to literally died at the first 3 seconds of the round than to let the opponents have a chance to get a kill and guarantee to get an ult orb or two.
No less entertaining than having 2 players on a team hide and save for 2 minutes, when in the first contact of the round they lost 3 players immediately.
spittin facts
you are so right you should be fined tbh
Well, at least this one didn't waste your time watching the players hide and save their guns.
hiding is different, the other team can try and find and get the kill, but with jumping they have no chance
@@fnc.owenmelbz They usually don't though
This is one of those cases where if G2 ended up winning the game, this would be looked back as one of the most insanely big brain plays in E-Sports history.
"you lose, so it's disrespectful"
nah imagine the controversy "you only win because of that, you don't deserve it"
@@444limm "the winners write the story" except that it's the winners get respect and the loosers get shit on
no it was so braindead, its like what tenz said. IF the opponenet does the fpx emea buy,which is to buy 3 rifles and keep 2 pistols from last round then its braindead. Thats what lev did. Levs economy was so good after the g2 throw. Honestly,one of the most braindead calls ever, they immediately lost the match as soon as they did that
Not a good decision anyway you look at it, people do win pistol rounds against rifles not often but they happen, denying your chance to convert on it just to deny 5 ult points to me it's not worth at all, they even lost the next round making them look even worst
Not a Valorant player, but this move is 4head. No reason to fine them.
valorant community is so soft. Shit should be the norm. Hopefully other teams copy g2.
5Head. 4Head is meant more as a means to mock someone or just laughing. 3head is the opposite of 5Head.
5Head
@@Barcodeuser123 it literally is its 1 guy
@@Barcodeuser123 The community is literally against the fines
As long as it isn't in bad faith (IE a part of a legit strategy) who cares tbh.
Apparently some ppl do care....yes it is annoying to see the kill feed of ur enemies yeeting themselves but thats a smart move to deny orbs and creds
An its pretty amusing
there was a time in CSGO when pros would die to molotovs on purpose because the ump-45 was a super popular weapon and a kill with a molo gives $300 and $600 with an ump.
then it got banned from the tournaments (because it wasn't an engaging way to play the game for the audience), but nobody thought this strategy was disrespectful or that the players should get fined for doing it, it's allowed then ppl do it.
@@aninnocent1544now THIS is min-maxing your gameplay 😂 smart! That and the UMP used to be crazy..
deny money and orbs for ultimates to the other team, it is a strat, a very risky one because you also lose one round
i think this is a classic case of hate the game not the player. If thats the most optimal stratagy in a stratagy shooter: thats on riot
Exactly.
Yep
As someone said: "Players are going to find the most optimal way to play, if the most optimal way to play is boring, then that's just bad game design."
@@ElMancoDelSigloThere is also another saying, "Players will optimise the fun out of gaming" Weird how both sayings are popular but in different genres of gaming haha
It’s funny how people don’t understand this is almost no different from a 3 man save. The point is to not give your opponent money and orbs. And if you’re using classics vs rifles, snipers, etc. on the longest range map in the game, you’re going to lose hands down 95% of the time unless you have a miracle round. Think mark, think!
I think breeze has longer sightlines but yeah it's still huge.
@@n1ght7ngalebreeze is no longer in the map pool
Exactly!!! It’s not a classic 5 man eco on Ascent or Haven with small choke points that a team can get mowed down, it’s freaking ABYSS.
@@emrepeep6903 yeah but he said in the game, not in the competitive rotation.
@@n1ght7ngaleRespectfully, the video is about competitive valorant and the esport, why would I include breeze when it’s not in either map pool?
it’s the same when cs pros used to die in a molly to prevent giving extra money to smgs, so that’s alright by me
btw jumping off is disrespectful in valorant while pros in cs are casually showing middle fingers while losing 1 : 11 (broky from faze) and after they comeback and win they still show middle fingers, i don’t and probably will never understand valorant community and these rules against toxicity
toxicity is what makes watching gaming interesting, i’d like to see someone as toxic and as good as s1mple has been a long time ago
plus it prevents giving the opponent potential ultimate ability points, so actually it's a smarter decision
@@Crucial54321 don’t know about valorant ability mechanics, but not giving something extra to your opponent that can destroy next round for you is just a good strategy
@@oLabbb68 Basically most agents have strong abilties called ultimates, and every kill gives you one point towards it. Most ults are 7/8 orbs, so yes its very worth preventing the opponent from gaining 5 orbs spread out across the team
Its just Lothar making this a bigger deal than it has to be
Boostio
G2 Afks in a rat spot so they dont give money to Lev, Audience: BOOOOO NOW WE HAVE TO WAIT 2 MINUTES FOR NEXT ROUND
G2 Jumps off the map and just skips the round, Some random caster: WTF ARE YOU DOING, THE DISRESPECT IS CRAZY
Personally say hiding more disrespectful because 1. Wasting time 2. Basically lurking around so got me paranoid af 3. Because i just wanna end on 3
Kinda funny that youtube says this game is overwatch because this was a normal strat in overwatch lol.
Its a normal strat in overwatch to jump off the map if the fight is lost but you would never full team jump off the map instead of contesting point
🤓@@madnessman1520
@@madnessman1520yeah but you don’t have an economy in OW afaik
You don’t have to buy abilities each round.
@@Lucaz99 In overwatch enemies build ultimate charge from damage dealt so the point is to deny the ult charge they would build from killing you.
@@Lucaz99yes they have, DVa stall and jump out of the map is to prevent the ult charges and controlling spawn time, slowing down the push.
If this is disrespectful to the sport, then Riot might as well go after everyone who dies to the spike. Oh wait, that's literally every pro team ever.
This is a fine way to play. It's unexciting for viewers, and if rito wants to fix it, it's super simple.. put a wall there, and the next day, it never happens again.
But in essence it's no different to regular sports:
- in baseball a pitch can choose to throw 4 balls so far from the batter that he has no chance to hit them. The better gets a free walk to 1st base, but you can do it to stop a great hitter from hitting a home run.
- in American football a quarter back can take a knee to avoid being tackled, or they can throw the ball out of bounds to avoid the risk of interception. Very unexciting, but legal way to play the game.
yep, similar like wasting time in football/soccer by acting being injured, it is boring to watch but its legal.
Its just about took advantage the flaw of the rules
Is bro going to ignore the fact that all 5 main spaces on the map have places to fall off in? Atk spawn, def spawn, a site, b site and mid?
For that football kneeling, there was once a team that tried to make a play even though they were up with like seconds left on the timer. Fumbled and instantly lost. Offensive coach was fired on the spot.
Or for actual boredom with technical upside, there’s basketball and the Hack a Shaq.
But in Valorant, there’s tons of boring spectator moments that we’re fine with. Saving guns in a 1v3 is basically the same situation of “technically winnable, but really?”
Lose credits for falling off the map ez fix makes no sense to eco falling off the map otherwise
Would you rather watch people just hide on the map for 5 minutes@@brycenamorozo8630
It’s just CS mollys all over again. If Riot actually thinks this is an issue, they should give suicide penalties.
Yep
the plot twist is riot waiting till a lower region team does that so then they place the rule and give take the win from said lower team.
I would compare this more to throwing away weapons in csgo. You don't want enemies to get advantage.
@@ashreen4330 That makes no sense. Do you know what even happened in the pro scene with mollys back then? On full ecos pros would suicide in other teams mollys to not get killed from 2nd round smgs which give $600 per kill, thats $3000 vs lets say a buy round would be $300 per kill so $1500 total. Thats full utill on one player right there denied. Now they can full buy into 5 umps with half util. Thats the advantage. Also all the kill money is stacked to one player
This is like the CSGO molly issue. IM SURE they weighed the possibility of getting some pistol kills, lowering their eco, and winning the round. But they realized that if they lost then the other team would have just snowballed out of something they could manage which caused them to make a play.
If riot has an issue then don’t make a map the allows this mechanic.
The funny thing is that the snowball still happened and G2 still got rolled. It's really only a big deal because G2 were the first
Why are valorant players so heated over nothing lmfao
The only person that got heated was Lothar who is a Valorant analyst who’s known for terrible takes lol
@@ThatsAmore123 that’s besides the point lol, the whole community rages over stupid shit lmao
They threw one round to give themselves a better chance at the more important rounds. What matters is winning the match not a specific round. What they did is totally fine, hate the game not the players.
its not even throwing lol. throwing is when your goal is to lose the game
But the twitter guy had a point, enemies would use more money using their util and re-buying shields than loosing the 1k from not killing the enemies
@@typekkleks4013 The question wasn't if it was a good play. The question was if it was a legal or ethical play. You shouldn't be punished for making a bad play (even though it is debatable if this was a bad play or not).
@@bubble0 On that i agree
If it's strategic in nature and doesn't violate rules, it's fair game. If Riot doesn't want those kinds of strategies in their game, they shouldn't put a ledge in spawn. The onus would be on them to patch those sorts of strategies out of the game if they don't want them in their game.
Never thought jump of the cliff to deny enemies economy is disrespectful in valorant terms. Wait until bros see broky flipping liquid at 1:11 and they might fainted because of that.
jokes on u, they also denied to play any round after that and went home pretty early. Which placed NA in the worst region, what a smart play!
Bro would've gotten whiplash if he had the pleasure of witnessing JameTime.
Saving after taking 5 damage through wall. Jametime truly a staple :D
@@darkin1484
Fl1t: Jame I took 1 dmg from a grenade
Jame: Ok we all go sit on B and if they go A, we save.
JAMETIME SAVETIME
5:05 he ment in game for people wondering
1:53 the second take is very wrong, he said that "they deny 1000 credits and 5 ult orbs" but they actually deny 1000c {5x200} in kills, 5 ult orbs {kills}, 2 ult orbs {pick up}. 1500c {spike plant} and 1 ult orb from planting. Also I saw them use *some* abilities at the start of the round which also cost them a bit of money, if they waited for the enemy to use more abilities they risk the chance of them making it to a site and planting, getting a - as the post says "shitton of cash". Jumping off is a valid strategy, as it can't be applied every round {cause you would lose} but it saves your team the mental draining of having to fight an extremely unfavourable fight and probably getting completely destroyed. Best thing is that you can do this if you hear the enemy chamber ult pre round {even if it is highly unlikely that a chamber would ult on enemy eco round, you never know}. I don't want to say whether it's a good or even approved of strategy, but it has it's benefits beyond what the post said.
but enemies also use up gold on utility, on shields (to refix them), you can gain money if you manage to take out 1,2,3 enemies, and get ult orbs as well, and you have a chance to win the round itself. as tenz said, sometimes its ok, but sometimes its braindead, and enemies werent close to ults when this happened
You can also argue that from a viewer point of vue, it's not disrespectful because they skip the boring one sided round to get faster to the interesting rifle round.
When Siuhy rings the inferno bells in an eco round in CS I know it's because they have a little timeout to make their enemy waste their util, I don't get upset and call him a troll, I even find it amusing.
Plus as Tenz outlined it, this could be a bad decision so it's not like it's a boring meta every team is gonna adopt.
I guess the real 4head move was the attention bait by Lothar, it clearly worked 😄
I would say:
If one team can do it, everyone should be able to.
If one team can’t do it, no one should be able to.
Lothar is about as qualified to talk about this as a bronze hardstuck on pro level strategy. He thinks u win a round with classics vs full or antieco buy at this long range map. Good luck lol 99% ur cooked
On a full eco you can't even stack a site. B site is pretty much gone and imagine stacking 5 players at the back of A site lol.
it's a tactical decision, it doesn't matter if it's the best one or not. I think that because it's a tactic that (at least in G2's eyes) gives them a better chance to win the game it's not unsportsmanlike and that if it is unintended then that's a problem that riot need to fix and G2 is within their rights to use the unconventional strat.
ITS ALL FINE, the game gives you an option, then its fine.
Its a free round, but deny MORE money.
Its it ethical? why are we debating this.
the problem here is the riot fanboys who think playing a certain way is the only right way
most of them lack ingenuity to play every game
If it's in the game and it's not an overt exploit, then it shouldn't ever be against the rules. Having special rules for Esport matches that disallow players from doing things that can easily be done in regular ranked matches is just a way to excuse or ignore poor game design.
The point is after lothar tweeted about tenz reply it was entirely different response than his “disrespectful” hot takes earlier
I don’t think anyone who knows valorant would say it’s a disrespect/troll move. There was a tactic and reasoning behind it. Now is it the best move? That’s up to debate, but I mean the fact that there are debates show that it is indeed a tactic that can be used for min maxing.
Somethings to note imo.
This is likely a strat that was planned out before hand bc if not they would probably do the meta which is to hard stack a site with classics and smaller guns if possible economically like sheriffs, try to get a pick, then die to spike.
Things to consider:
•meta is now during the force attack round not everyone is forcing you usually only see 3-4ppl buying bc usually you expect to lose one person, that one person usually is lurker which means you aren’t giving them a gun if the lurker gets picked off or the person who didn’t force just picks up the gun of someone who has died and forced.
•defenders jumping off means that the attackers aren’t using their util (aka money) to get onto site
•on the other hand they aren’t getting plant money and ult points
Wonder if baiting it to waste there util then jumping off would be better. They lose money, don't get ult orbs, and the extra money from kills. Honestly would see this as more disrespectful but it's the game not the player.
its not fault on G2, it's riot's fault for making a map where that strat is an option
Like Vertigo in CS
EVEN IF IT WAS DISRESPECTFUL (and I’m about to give a massively hot take)
Who cares? Disrespect in games is fun, in moderation
I haven't personally competed at a professional level but for a long time (until the past few years) I've been tied to the eSports community in some way shape or form, like being part of/working for smaller orgs that are still professional competitive and reputable in the scene. Here is my two cents.
It's interesting seeing the shift: When eSports was much smaller and driven by passion there was so much pride and emphasis on competitive integrity. Despite being in my early 20s, its that older school eSports mentality. People in my circle with that mentality have felt miserable lately with the lack of competitive integrity and passion in the industry. Everything is all about META Slaving, perfect optimization, or cheese now and I think the discourse around that match demonstrates this well.
While it has tactical advantage, what G2 did is cheese. The players didn't put countless hours of practice in to play against that. The passionate fans didn't watch to see that. The casters didn't show up to call that. There was no competition that round. No demonstration of skill. It was just a cheesy tactic in an effort to optimize economy.
Disagree all you want but THERE IS A REASON no other team dared to do it before. And even if others replicate it there's a reason why it will never become a thing every team does (other than it not necessarily being the most optimal play in every circumstance). Those who know, know.
the map has been played like 5 times it was inevitable
Lol bro as someone who else competed in a small esports and was "kinda pro" i can guarantee you right now if u played in a 1 000 000 $ tourney youd also jump if you think itll help you get the money. You people act as if them playing is the same as you playing ranked and keep forgetting that theres a shit ton of money on the line
Its your job, you are competing to play your best, valorant is not about just aiming and killing, its an strategic game with different mechanics (as advertised by riot) and eco administration is one of them; on the "viewers side" it was a time save from a boring round which lev was 99% assured to win and snowball, it made it less boring and actually added spice to it; the reason no other team dared to do it before was because it was risky, not because of some weird "pride and sportsmanship", you brag about old scool eSports mentality when this debate its just a reenactment of the same problem in different games, csgo self-kill, mineral boosting in starcraft, r6 operator swap, a bit older, League of legends tower execution , oh you wanna go older? WoW raid wipes , Dungeon mobs reset. Sacrifices have always been a part of esports or high level play in general, people just like to hate on any interesting strat.
@@antovinkovic No. Reputation, integrity and standing in the community used to be important. In fact it still is in some communities, with GAs (gentlemen’s agreements) and the like still being an important part of the scene. Plus players see a lot less of that money than most would think. The older school eSports community cared far more about restricting broken/unbalanced weapons/mechanics/etc for fair and competitive play than the new community has.
Honestly the whole DNA changed when gaming exploded during the pandemic. Gaming suddenly became cool and a bunch of people who didn’t have that same passion, framework and long-developed skill flooded the scene. It’s where this “win at any cost” mindset (META slaving and cheesing) and “everyone’s cheating/if you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying” mindset blew up, with these problems plaguing eSports/gaming as a whole ever since.
For background I was mostly in the old CoD, and Halo scenes, but later on I did also form connections and compete a bit in the NBA 2K community plus the friends/network I’ve made cover more (older and newer) eSports titles. A lot of legitimate pros, as well as people like me, quit or fell out of love due to the culture change and the trend of “over-casualization”. Devs have been limiting skill expression and making games easier/cheesier (and as a result unbalanced/less rewarding at higher level play).
@@swe872 See the issue with that is you’re nitpicking and comparing it to cheese strats that were all still frowned upon. Esport players/gamers and passionate viewers DO still have what you refer to as “weird pride and sportsmanship.” In fact it’s intricately tied to the eSports itself, otherwise you wouldn’t see bans by leagues, let alone Gentleman’s agreements between players and coaches still being a thing. It’s one of the strengths of the MLG/grassroots era that made it so good, passionate and competitive. The fact that having competitive integrity, sportsmanship and passion is now considered weird is so ass-backward that it could sum up a lot wrong with the world right now. There was nothing interesting about that strat… they tossed themselves off the map because they were afraid of losing an aim fight.
Also why tf is everything considered bragging nowadays? Talking about something isn’t necessarily bragging, if you took my original comment that way then (respectfully) that’s on you. Nothing was in a boastful or condescending way at all (until arguably that last sentence). Giving background to better context my views is NOT bragging, nor did I directly and intentionally insult anyone else’s views (like calling them weird or haters for example).
This feels like the exact same as a CS:GO team on pistols sitting in spawn all round using an eco round as a time out. Happens all the time, you're not really trying to win the round, you're just utilizing the time of the round to discuss the next round at no cost because you didn't buy. Then last second rush on to a site and die and reset for the next round. That strat does not get criticized at all, so why would this get any different reception. It's strategic. Twitter fella is dumb.
If Riot wants to add a map to competitive where the whole gimmick is falling off then what's the problem with a team doing what the map was designed for. If a team does it as part of a strategy that is meant to end with them winning the game then what's wrong with playing the map in the way it was designed? If it's a problem then why did Riot design the map to allow it in the first place?
Basically, so long as it's not FFing there should be nothing wrong with a team using a strategy that is based on the way a map is designed. That's literally what Valorant is and if G2 gets any kind of punishment for this they'd be taking the fall for whoever designed and whoever greenlit this map.
this isn't a big enough thing to warrant a near 8 minute yap session
TheScore really enjoys letting their “personalities” jabber on about anything they can think of.
Such is the case for any media platform that delivers news. They have to keep going. They need to make money after all.
nobody made u click bro
The Best part is, if this happened on CS at a major, they would probably make a Graffiti out of it 😂
It's crazy to think how long I've been watching theScore esports... Dimitri has really grown into such a solid host for this channel. Big props, brother.
I think Loathar's main goal is actually to drive up engagement/publicity by giving a "hot take", in that case, he absolutely accomplished his goal
In early CS, talking like CS 1.3, the meta eco save was to camp T spawn and wait out the round timer, which was like 2 minutes back then. It was very boring. They updated the economy rules in later patches. If Riot doesn't like this they'll patch it.
Instructions unclear, Now im running it down in league
Is saving a weapon in CS for strategic reasons, a.k.a. "Jame Time", a disrespectful move? Sure it might be boring to play against and witness, but the logic is undeniably present.
You are still playing the game when you are saving, sure the objective might have changed but the game is still being played as in you can still try and hunt down the people saving.
There is nothing you can do about 5 players jumping off the map as soon as possible.
@@noha7688 Vertigo:
If it's a strategy that the game allows and the strat isn't objectively bad (aka it can benefit you in certain situations), then in my opinion there's no reason to not allow that.
This is what is known in game design theory as emergent gameplay, we've seen a million games where you shoot things you win things, it's so fucking boring and vanilla that seeing a whole team kill themselves as a way to play a meta game is just so genius and exciting.
People criticizing their play probably only know how to have sex in missionary. If I was one of the designers for Valorant I would acutally implement MORE things like this where you can have emergent tactical decisions that go beyond 'SHOOT THINGS'.
I have no connection to Valorant and know none of the people involved. This a BASED MOVE and should be allowed.
Meanwhile in cs we have broky flipping off team liquid before and after faze pulled off one of the best comebacks in cs2 so far. Its really amazing how sensitive valorant players can get.
no different than dying to a molly in CS to give the opponent less money
When teams deliberately die from the spike is considered fine, but jumping off the map isn't basically explains the duality of the valorant community.
what community you talking about? Most people think it's fine. There's an analyst that posted something on "twitter", and you consider that the community?
@@jovi_skips Calling him an 'analyst' is an insult to real analysts
@@jackbrinkley1809 I stand corrected.
"Duality" is literally the lore of Valorant 😂
@@jackbrinkley1809 he is a real analyst tho... what you on about?
I recall back in the days in CS, there are teams end themselves with molotov to deny the opponents from killing them with UMPs. And that got praised as a 5head move.
This was fun to watch, well done.
I mean, it is quite common in vct for defenders to die to the spike blast if they're on very very eco round, it is the same principle, but even better because you don't give ult orbs to the enemy with a spike plant or explicit kills
I see this the same as Overwatch players jumping off the cliff to not stagger the team and not give free ult charges to enemies
Imo, it's in their best interest to somehow grief the enemy team of any resources that can be acquired and this is the most efficient way of doing it in this map.
I love how he tried to use the "will everyone hate on TenZ too?" When TenZ was making an ENTIRELY different and actually valid point when he broke it down. Lothar needs to go to logic 101, because in his mind it is reasonable to say that an apple is exactly the same as an orange.
as a middle ground, I think there should be a time limit as to when they can jump. It's gonna change some rush tactics but also at least not force something like this to happen. maybe 20 seconds into the round is good enough
Typical Lothar Yapping
This is exactly the same as jumping off the map in Overwatch when you are the last left in a fight, denying the enemy team from staggering you or farming a bit of ult charge.
Isnt this the vertigo conversation but in a different game?
In cs2 youu dont get money from suicide
@@youyou01101 No you don't but the vertigo conversation in CSGO was that pros jumped of the map to denie kill rewards back when smgs were super strong. It all started when a team jumped into a molly to denie kill rewards and it was banned shortly after when vertigo was put in the map pool
@@tallafan4399 jumping into mollies and jumping outside the map are not the same, its not worth it to deny 600 dollars if the cost is your round loss money
@@youyou01101 Not in CSGO afaIk
Considering a fast suicide “strat” isn’t possible on every map, it’s just a map issue. They could do the same “strat” with the right team composition on any other map using abilities and util damage with no disrespect to anyone intended. It’s just what the game allows and for that reason alone it kinda just shows how much of a meme the game can be 😂
Ur content is always a good watch, keep it up.
This is fine as long as it's kept to a minimum.
The reason it's controversial is if 5 man suicides become recognized as efficient or even meta, spectators will hate it while the actual players will have little motivation to do the "cool" thing of playing rounds out.
Same goes if such a strategy proves effective enough to make ranked players do it. That'll require a balance update from riot themselves.
teams often only full save twice in a game so its not that bad
It would only really be effective if your opponent is half buying (so mostly round 2 or 14), if anything it might get more exciting if it does become meta, round 2 would become a mind game of "are they jumping off or not?"
You think they are? Don't buy.
But if you think the enemy is expecting you to jump off, force buy on a loss when they didn't buy.
The counter to that? Don't buy, wait a few seconds and jump off and have the enemy stuck with worse guns in round 3.
It becomes a deeper and deeper mind game, and I think it would be enjoyable to watch.
@@oisin2696Both of you are bringing valid points but dam that actually would be crazy.
Damn these bots quick as hell
This was literally a conversation the CS:GO already had with Vertigo. Valve and CS:GO officials deemed jumping off of the map to be wrong and it became forbidden to do so intentionally. Lets not reinvent the wheel. I completely agree with Lothar.
5:28 valve????
The company who made counterstrike, team fortress 2, Dota 2, half-life, portal etc
💀
He was talkin bout csgo
@jadeite2723 no he wasint he said valve put it in valorant
In the line he's talking about Virtus Pro playing cs, not Valorant
In Dota 2, you can even execute to a Neutral Creep (jungle monster) to prevent max gold income to the enemy team. It's a strat, not disrespect. In Valorant, it's kinda like finding a loophole that no one else knows about and actually using it to your team's advantage, except in the case of Dota 2, every one knows this.
Very unsportsmanlike in my opinion, but arguably the correct decision. This isnt an issue in CS, but in Valorant denying ult orbs makes it super worth while to jump off maps. When there is what can be round winning abilities instead of just some kill money at stake... It just makes sense.
well it is... there is a strat in cs pro play were you in force buy rounds for the enemy you jump on a molly they throw to stop them from getting kills with there smgs as it smgs give more money then mollies. the cs pro scene tried to also say that was unsportsmnlike and ban it but they quickly realized its hard to releaze if someone is killing themselves on accident or purpose
@@theotherchase8442 Except its a bad strat and nobody does it. There are like 3 examples of this actually happening. It's an incredibly niche scenario that just doesn't happen. Generally speaking going for bomb plant is far more advantageous. Dying by molly builds money on one player, which usually give enough for a round 3 awp on ct side.
The scenario: Ts lose pistol without doing any damage or getting bomb down. CTs can stack a site in r2 and save while still getting loss bonus, Ts cannot save and get loss bonus without planting bomb. Ts must also think it's impossible to get site, and guaranteed that CTs are already getting an awp.
Overall its just a losing strat and it's why you saw it maybe twice or three times in 2017-2018 when the econ was being tested and not really ever again - at least not on a team suicide level. Yes we occasionally see 7hp full save final player off themselves in a molly in a 1v4, but past that it's just not a strat. Killing even one player in a full save as Ts is more econ efficient than dying as a team to a molly.
2:00 he did say that, in other tweet 😆😆
That final sentence really hits hard. It's no different to OP champs (in any hero based game) due to balance shifts and meta changes. You can't fault people for wanting to pick the busted champs.. they're just playing the game. It's not disrespectful, but it does deserve criticism for being such a priority pick in the first place. Balancing games is hard.
I just think that, if it shouldent be done, it shouldent be possible.
I can understand why people are angry about it, but in the end it´s the rulebook that decides what is wrong or right
Dont say that Valorant has “The shorty” as if CS doesnt have the Zeus
reminds me of that time in cs where Ts would purposefully die to mollies because the ump was crazy good and gave you a higher kill reward.
Funnily enough Riot went out of the way to nerf a playstyle similar to this in League because of the impact it had on lower elo.
TheBauss(i think thats how he spells it) made a playstyle that can be considered soft inting(intentionally losing for those unaware) on a character that gets a short beserk zombie effect on death that allows you to still attack enemies for a duration after you die. You still die, and the death credit and rewards still only go to the people that kill you before that starts, but you get to influence the game a little before having to wait for respawn. He realized this character has extra value from dying, and because another system exists that lowers the rewards given for killing a player that has died alot(its supposed to be a catch-up mechanic to slow down players who get ahead and snowball off the one guy behind), he came up with a way to utilize that value to gain more resources from dying than enemies gain from killing him, that he later uses to focus on destroying towers and the nexus instead of just killing the enemy team.
The problem is his playstyle is both very risky and very hard to pull off, but looks like(to an unskilled/unintelligent viewer) a braindead strat, so low elo players started copying the strat increadibly unsuccessfully, resulting in a bad pllayer experience overall. Riot then nerfed the ability to destoy towers and gain resources in that zombie mode in an effort to de-incentivize the strategy, and that kind of worked. Bauss still uses his strat when he sees an enemy comp that is vulnerable to it, but other players more or less avoid it besides diehard believers and people trying to hide their ACTUAL inting(thats another reason it became popular, you could int and say you were doing the strat so "dont ban plz i was trying honest") .
I find it hilarious that even lev even responded on Twitter telling lothar to basically stfu cuz he’s doubling down on a stupid opinion. This is like with the old cs strat of one team molotoving themselves. It’s a big brain play, it denies bonus money and you don’t have to force anything that round. Same thing here for valorant. People just wanna police on how pros play. If this were to happen e sports would be boring. Don’t let idiots like lothar speak on social media with their tistic takes.
I'd far prefer this to the team just hiding the whole round like in a traditional save.
One team got a 100% chance to win the round, the other got a less "bad" of a lost round. Where's the problem ?
Watching people play the game as optimally as they can, no matter how weird the strat is the whole point of watching pro players. If there was a rule against things like this there is no point to watch to be honest.
it’s a welll thought out decision in the hopes of making the game more even, and possibly giving the viewers a a better game later because of it. I’m not a massive fan that you can jump off the map in general but since it’s apart of the game you might as well use it. Up to Riot if they want to change that or not
how much did they deny? 8 ult orbs (5 on kills, 2 on harvest, and 1 on spike), frag creds, plant creds. plus they have the +1900 round loss creds intact going into round 15 with a 2-round losing streak bonus. Plus if the other team did a force-buy, they will have weaker guns. For a map that introduces off-map deaths, it's actually an ok strat, given that they can afford dropping a round. Probably the bad thing about it was they were not able to recover in this map even with such exploit.
On another note, maybe they should remove the spawn area fall traps. Make people jump off at mid or on the sites.
“Disrespectful” is a crazy take, def should be allowed and def a smart decision
I am not a Valorant player but considering that they have a cliff like that in-game (which I believe other competitive FPS games like CS2 do not have), it's a feature. It's not unsportmanslike, it's a game feature.
What a responsible and realistic take on how to view your and others gameplay. Very well put.
*Someone saves in a 1v5*
twitter: "Every round is winnable!! This is disrespectful!"
This is a strategy, and I've actually experienced it in non-pro play as low as Diamond. This is just simply doing something they think will help them win the match, and I don't see anything wrong with it. It's not throwing the game, and it's not forfeiting, it's part of a strategy that gives them a better chance to mount a comeback. No rules against it, and there shouldn't be. Entirely legal.
cant you do the same strat on other maps like haven or split? (Ex: Die by taking fall damage by jumping through the window in haven)
You don't need to prove it was economically better to make that play, only that it's an option worth considering. Teams can think an option is good when it's actually bad, by demonstrating that the option is at least an option you can disprove the idea that it *must* have been done in bad faith / trolling / whatever. In that framing, the worst case is that the team made a dumb call and not a disrespectful one.
This reminds me of some decks in Magic The Gathering where you keep a bad hand and a concede game 1 if an opponent casts a thoughseize to keep the deck a mystery for game 2, since the chances of winning after losing the best card in your hand
If denying the possibility of winning an eco by jumping off the map is unethical, what makes saving ethical? We've seen incredible clutches in pro play, so it's not entirely unwinnable either.
Nothing wrong, they lose the round but deny a bit of orbs and money from opponents. And enemy team can do the same it's not like G2 are the only 1 allowed to do it. If that is somehow considered disrespectful than any other legitimate strategy should be too?
This is a big brain strat. Fining them for using their gray matter would be so incredibly stupid
same as CS2 when you dont want to give the enemy extra money for free on an Eco that you know you'll probably lose.
In this case they did this to prevent 5 ultimate orbs from being given for free that could bite them in the later rounds, when its 9-3 you'd think they would get deagles and go for it, the game is basically over and they needed an eco win ro turn it around.
i like how the video is tagged as an overwatch video
It's on Riot to not make a map where that can be done, if they don't want that to be done. None of the other maps have the choice to just jump off the map and die immediately on spawn, so don't make it an option. Also: It's a tactical advantage to not give them kills as to ruin their econ. It's a smart move, not a tilt move.
If u have a brim, viper, gecko... u could do a full team kill. Its not only map based. Most ppl don't think of denying resources, real thinking outside the box so I gotta respect it.
If a safe and good play is to jump off the map to deny the enemy team momentum then that’s not a sportsmanship issue, that’s a game design issue. Yes they could have played out the round, but the odds of them winning the round in pro play already down money and rounds is very low, so this was the safer option guaranteing the least amount of damage.
Statistically the team winning the pistol round, is winning the second round 80-90% of the time.
Using a unique map design, that allows such a move, is valid.
reminds me of the time in cs go where a pro team (i dont remember what team it was) ran in a molotov because they didnt want to give the enemies money.
i get why tenz said it could be stupid to try it because you could win the round, but at pro level if you’re not winning against people in an eco round it’s sort of weird. i mean sure they had a chance to but they just thought that it was potentially better for them overall to just give it up and minimise the damage
If there isn't a rule specifically saying this isn't allowed then you aren't allowed to complain. This isn't even a case of bending rules(happens in f1 a lot). They just made a smart play.
Your analogy to League execute was PERFECT, you won with this argument
I feel like this is just the same as hiding for the rest of the round to save, or hiding to prevent the enemy from having an ace, or throwing away the op so no one could get it. all of it is frustrating to encounter, but i feel like this only gathered so much traction because the entire team did it. It do be like that sometimes
also people are forgetting that G2 just gave Leviathan a free round win, which still gives them more credits for the next round as well as puts more pressure on G2 to bring back another round win
Judging by that round alone, I always thought of it in this way: since they’re that wary of giving Lev any advantage, in a way by jumping off, they’re really respecting what LEV can do if they were to fight the round out? Then again, people are mostly attaching other feelings to this moment cause they lost. If they won, this might have been hailed as a bizarre big brain move or smth
remember back in csgo when molotovs gave 0 kill reward, people would eco and run into mollys