@@rcapogarcia With a man on 1st with less than 2 outs, I'll take a 4 pitch at-bat for a double play rather than 10-11 pitches to strikeout the next 2 hitters. Pitching to contact isn't terrible. Fewer pitches to get the out keeps your pitch count down. Maddux pitched complete games with less than 100 pitches all the time. High volume strike out guys are at 100 pitches in the 7th inning. I know there is an inherent risk in the batter hitting the ball, but guys like Maddux and say a Max Fried induce weak contact.
@@Shan_Cox Agreed, but when you think of the best pitchers high Ks guys are usually the norm. Maddux was and is somewhat of an outlier. Contact guys are usually not as dominant.
I agree with your 5 picks as aces but to say Logan webb isn’t an ace because he pitches to contact with one of the worst defenses in the league is batshit crazy.
Ya to say the guy that pitches more innings than anyone the last 2 years while being top 10 in Era is not an ace is laughable at best. This guy knows absolutely nothing.
"These guys are more worried about throwing strikes than throwing something that's hard for the batter to hit, as a result they can give up a lot of contact and balloon their ERAs" Also puts Spencer fucking Strider as a true ace despite him throwing so many strikes that it lead to an ERA over 4 last year.
The definition of "teams top pitcher" feels misleading when teams have had multiple aces at once, looking at the 1990's Braves with Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz or the 2-headed monster of Schilling and Johnson on the 2001 Dbacks. Also Logan Webb is an ace lmao if you wanna say his style "relies on defense" too much keep in mind he placed 2nd in CYA voting with one of the worst defenses in MLB who led the league in errors by a big margin.
Totally agree on the "teams top pitcher", an ace is a top pitcher and a team can have more than one ace. As for Webb, like I said I think he is a really good pitcher, but we can disagree on him being an ace or not. Giants D was terrible with errors, but was still 12th in team Def according to fangraphs, and most of their bad defense according to advanced numbers was from the outfield, which doesn't matter as much to a high groundball pitcher like Webb, C and each INF spot ranked no lower than 13th in MLB.
@@SmartrBaseball To me he fits more into the mould of a Maddux than a Johnson, but he's still an ace. His control is still stupid good, given he led the MLB with the best K/BB ratio and still has excellent FIP even better than his RBIs. Having Pat Bailey helps but the Giants infield is generally average at best defensively, they arent making him worse but they arent carrying him the way the Dodgers infield does.
@@SmartrBaseball Any team that has to have Wilmer Flores at 3rd base 22 games out of the year with an .848 fielding percentage is really bad defensively. Brandon Crawford was also nowhere is his usual badass self defensively, plus the bad outfield which still counts even with a ground ball pitcher like Webb. If you don't have Logan Webb as an ace your definition of an ace is pretty suspect.
Logan webb is still the most underrated pitcher in baseball for not making this list. definately an Ace, would like to have him over Gausman and gallen and strider rn. More innings and no difference in ERA with the worst defense in baseball as a groundball pitcher. By far the best ground ball pitcher in the league, he has no comparisons for innings with 216 pitched. 2nd in cy young and projected to lead the league in pitchers war. Dude is an ace on a trash giants roster and I am a giants fan. the fact that he didnt get all mlb team SP or an all star is literally criminal and the league should be embarrassed.
I agree with your point about pitchers who pitch to contact, but numbers strongly suggest that Logan webb is an ace regardless of his style. 2021-2023: 92 G, 556.2 IP 3.07 ERA, 3.00 FIP 23.2% K, 5.2% BB, 0.6 HR/9 14.2 WAR Those numbers rival or exceed most of the five true aces you named in this video
I wouldn't be surprised if he was absolutely elite again this year, and if he is like I said he's earned ace status again, I just don't like his Ks/BBs getting noticeably worse the last couple years, but he could easily prove me wrong.
@@SmartrBaseball Burnes numbers stack up favorably against Gallen, Gausman, and Wheeler over the past 3 seasons. I think you're suffering recency bias on Burnes. It's different for Alcantara who tanked, but Burnes still had 200Ks on the nose and 191IP with a low-3s ERA and a sub-4 FIP. It just seemed like a down season; I'd encourage you to go look at Verlander's baseball reference page. He had down years at the same age for inexplicable reasons. Baseball's finicky. I only think there is 1 ace in baseball (Cole), but to be consistent, I think it should to be a 1 pitcher list or a 6 pitcher list. I'd even say Burnes would be my #3 if I had to rank them---behind Cole and Strider but ahead of the other 3 guys you named.
@@user-fx2bx1gz4c Burnes numbers combined over the last three years are great, but like I said in the video it's that they've been going down, this year will answer any questions though. I can absolutely see him putting up great numbers again, and then it's no question he's an ace, but if they go down again I'm hitting the panic button.
@@jeffreyjurney2013 He was definitely better second half, walks were still a bit high for my taste, but hopefully it's a sign he gets back to 2021-22 Burnes, I'm rooting for the best version of him which is absolutely filthy.
Dont sleep on max fried. He had injury trouble last year but other than that hes consistently around 30 starts a year, strikeouts,walks,and era all being near the top of MLB. I fully expect him to have a cy young type if season
Definitely took too long to get to the main part. I'm sorry, I don't want to be mean. You explained what your list was, but over explained it. Then you did your list. Awesome. Then you explained what your list was again. Trim it, and you have a great video. I could be being hard on you, but I I enjoy things like this. Hearing people's perspectives. However when I'm not feeling like I get the information quickly enough I feel like my time is being wasted. Lucky for me, I know when to skip a video.
@@king_supreme1102 he does this to lengthen his watch time dummy. Its a common practice in social media. So you defending it and making it about attention span shows your complete ignorance to the actual situation going on.
@@king_supreme1102the first ten minutes isn’t information though, it’s just extensive fluff that can be summed up by saying “Aces are the best at getting batters out” on top of footage of double plays and sac flies
I for one am really hoping that knuckleball George Kirby has teased every now and then can become a real pitch for him. He could pound the zone about as much if he pleases if hitters have it in the back of their heads that a legit knuckleball could come out at any time.
Throwing a good knuckleball is really really hard, otherwise tons of guys would use it. If it's a really good knuckleball it's effective as hell but if it's not thrown perfect it's like throwing batting practice.
@@bordomsdeadly Not saying he was a K god, but he did K more guys than most people give him credit for. For instance, he struck out WAY more guys than Glavine while also walking about half as many.
Ace is the best pitcher in the staff. That’s how it started. Managers would say I’m leading with my ace. Which is putting your best card forward. Around the 90s I noticed people started calling certain pitchers “true Aces.” Which meant legit studs. That’s now how we use the term ace as it’s seems the true part got dropped off and people just call really good pitchers aces. However, every staff still has their number one guy.
Interesting no mention of Nola. I know he’s had a few rough seasons since his career best 2018 season (including last season), but I’d consider him a 1B. He’s among the most durable pitchers in the game, walks barely anybody and has a nasty arsenal despite only topping out around 92-93. He’s struggled with the long ball though. Hanging watermelon curveballs. I think Nola is gunna have himself a very good 2024.
Nola was one of my guesses too, not knowing exactly what his recent stats were. It feels like he's been that 1B for a prolonged enough period of time he might qualify or be close.
@@coachleif yeah, he had a hard time adjusting to the pitch clock last season. Struggled. 4.46 ERA in 193 innings. But he made a few adjustments in late September (he realized he was standing at an angle on the mound in order to face the pitch clock and incorporated a slide step) and his last 5 starts were 2022-esque. Plus the looming free agency situation. I really think he can still win a Cy Young and will.
An Ace is a Elite Starter who you trust, who can put you in position to win (low FIP/ERA), getting outs (K-rate), and racking up innings. Gerrit Cole Kevin Gausman Zack Wheeler Spencer Strider Zac Gallen I think Sandy Alcantara, and Corbin Burnes could make a comeback... but otherwise, I like the list. (Oh... you did mention them. Lol.)
I think that Castillo is in there for being an Ace, Pablo Lopez needs a definite shoutout, and Strider still doesn’t convince me 100% of the time, but he’s on the braves who make up for his weaknesses
Gerett Cole is probably the most dependable pitcher in baseball today if you need a win he will definitely keep you in the game to give the offense the opportunity to win the game.
@@0ucandoit0 Dude he has better career stats in the postseason than the regular season. Postseason ERA of 2.93 WHIP .94 Regular season ERA 3.17 WHIP 1.08
@@0ucandoit0 Completely not true. He had 1 bad post season game, wild card against the Red Sox. He’s phenomenal in the playoffs. Nobody talks about how good he was in the 2020 playoffs particularly.
Astros fan here: totally agree with you on Framber Valdez. Love the guy to death and boy is his stuff good, but his propensity to melt down/give up the big inning, as well as his refusal to walk fewer than 3 batters a game, deservedly lands him as not an ace.
An ace to me is someone that could be the guy on a contending team and theres a lot of them. Obviously guys like Cole are aces because they're the best pitchers in the league lmao but to say someone like Logan Webb isn't is silly, he easily could be main or 1A pitcher on a legit contender
I would imagine the part of Burnes's regression last year was partly due to his frustrations with the Brewers. Now that he has a new home on a team with a lot of potential, the Orioles. The Brewers have been on a slow decline, and that can play i pretty big factor in one's performance. Now that he has a legitimate chance to make it deep in the playoffs, don't be surprised to see those numbers swing back in the positive direction. The Orioles's park is also a little more pitcher friendly than the Brewers is.
This shines more light on how truly incredible the Braves rotation in the 90s was. Three Aces. Three hall of famers. In their prime, for over a decade.
I completely agree with this. The biggest component to me is health. You cant be an ace without durability. Aces can go out there tired, without their best stuff, and still go 7. Big reason Cole is my #1 by quite a bit right now... and also a reason I believe Corbin Burnes should be considered an ace. Also, Gausman isnt an ace to me at all.
It seems weird to gatekeep the term for guys who had a down year, but then throw in guys who haven't had many years of dominant performance just because they otherwise fit the term.
I'm sorry but I'm pushing back on Strider. In order to be considered an ace you really do need to do this for about 3 years straight. Yes his stats are phenomenal but he only has one year under his belt. And how many wonderful one and dones have we seen over the last I don't know 50 years?
I'd say there's a lot of pitching out there right now with Ace potential, but very few of them put it all together for more than a year or two at a time
I grew up in the era of Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux being known as aces. Tossing around the term "ace" is revolting imo. I'm not really sure I call Gallen an ace, even though I'm a DBacks fan. He needs to have more control early game, teams tend to jump on him early. He does have this incredible ability to give up 1, 2, maybe 3 runs in the first inning and shut down the next 6, but I get a little nervous when Gallen starts. He's not a Gerrit Cole/Zach Wheeler level guy IMO
Kirby turned himself into the Ms staff ave last year. Pitch in Seattle, Kirby is going to win multiple Cy Young awards. After thinking about Smell based on this video I cant really argue with that. Last time I saw predictions for the 24' season Kirby, Castro and Gilbert were in the top 10 for best odds at winning the Cy Young. Very much holding out hope they figure out how to bring Snell home that would be 4 TOP 10 PITCHES WITH VERY REALISTIC CHANCES TO WIN THE AL CY YOUNGE.
Framber is always near the top of the list in "in zone balls". His control is better than the numbers and better than you think. I believe that in 2023 he had a game vs Seattle with 18 in zone balls. No other pitcher last season had as many as five in a start. If you look at in zone dBalls (pitched) and out of zone oStrikes (faced) the same teams are always on the top of that list; Oakland, Houston, Baltimore, Tampa, SD, Colorado. Basically Houston and teams that face BOS, NYY, and LAD.
As a cubs fan I know that if Steele is starting then im much more confident in our team to win because I know hes gonna go out and pitch a good game That's what an ace is. To say only 5 pitchers provide that to a team is wild.
The people complaining in the comments that "this guy wouldn't consider Maddux an Ace" are missing a point I believe. Baseball changes , and when Maddox played he wasn't necessarily considered a "pitch to contact guy" his strikeout numbers in his prime were right around what was the league average mark at the time. Also, standards have changed. Having huge strikeout numbers are hotter right now than ever. A strikeout is always an out (obviously). It's obvious that the league prefers this as well, a Rodon type is always going to get paid more than a Hendricks/Keuchel type of pitcher. This day and age you see more consistent results and longevity out of a pitcher with "stuff" than a lower velocity pitch to contact guy. There is a larger margin for error. All and all it is a well made video that doesn't deserve to get shit on like it has.
Constructive criticism: Name the 5 aces first real quick and then go into detail like you did early in the video about why some of these other players wouldnt be considered aces based on your qualification criteria - which I thought was spot on. Some great easy analysis here for sure. Love to see it man.
Before the video even loaded I'm like "The quadfather better be on the list"... and there they are (both of them) front and center in the first second.
I think one that is really important to keep eyes on with very limited injury history and continual improvement in his performances is Freddy Peralta. While definitely not an ace right now, he is absolutely emergent as one. Also, at least spell Burnes' name right...
Where would you put Aaron Nola? Personally I feel he falls under the inconsistent grouping, seeing how he did last year specifically to years previously, but I am curious as to what you think about him?
@@realisticthought1781 Fried's starts since becoming a full-time starter: 2019: 30 games 2020: 11 (Covid season) 2021: 28 2022: 30 2023: 14 recency bias is blinding you people calling him injury prone.
@@adamwiggins8290 That's like picking a favorite child. I'd be perfectly content with either. Max has more experience but Spencer is Spencer. For the sake of answering your question tho, I'll say Spencer.
I wholeheartedly disagree with Spencer Strider. The video starts with talking about pitchers making clutch strikeouts. And then the video cites Strider getting unlucky with getting rocked with guys on base.
An ace to me is a 30 start 200 inning guy with a sub 3.50 era. Dependability is important to me and that he can do it year in and year out. His stuff has to be good but doesnt have to be electric. he has to know how to pitch and get out of jams. He has to be able to go deep into games and get a strikeout when he needs it. I also like an ace that doesnt shrink in the biggest moments.
@SmartrBaseball I'm 29 and a cubs fan so I remember dusty throwing prior and wood into injuries. I think there needs to be a balance. Starters need to be built up to handle that workload, and have a longer leashe. I don't really think a starter who only goes 5 innings did his job. I also think a manager who pulls a guy early is kind of crippling a starters development. I think it causes starters to fold in the playoffs and leads to more pitching changes and bad baseball. I'm probly more old school but I don't think always going for strikeouts is the best strategy. You are just asking for longer counts and walks. Learn to locate and pitch to soft contact. Make the hitter earn his base. Most hitters don't go with the pitch leading to lower averages anyways.
Personally, I find it hard to consider someone an “ace” if they don’t consistently pitch through 6-7 innings. A starter shouldn’t have comparable innings totals to a well-used long reliever. The reduction is innings pitched is entirely on the analytic emphasis on making every pitcher throw as hard as possible and “load management” becoming a norm earlier and earlier in their pitching lives. This is a choice. Baseball is doing it to itself.
Ohtani of 2022-23 was an ace, no doubt about it. You have to remember that he was pitching every 6th game, not 5th, so that impacted his innings. If he wasn't a hitter the Angels wouldn't have been using a 6-man rotation.
The one guy you missed that I think lines up with your criteria of an ace is Aaron Nola. Over the last 3 years he's in the same range as the guys you mentioned for IP, BB, SO, and HR. I think the only thing that hasnt been that impressive for him is ERA and Win/Loss.
not taking playoffs into consideration is crazy. gausman since becoming an "ace" has a playoff era over 6, strider over 5 and gallen over 4.5. regular season stats don't mean anything unless you can't replicate it in the postseason.
ace pitchers do not need to be stikeout getters. like someone else mentioned, greg maddux is widely regarded as one of the best pitchers if not the best and definitely an ace. Never having a k/9 above 8, with those numbers getting above ten for the strikeout “ace” pitchers of that era
14:55 as part of braves country, we can attest that spencer is extremely unlucky. But also. There’s a bunch of measly 1 run or late extra runs that scored bc the braves offense produced and strider shoved and they lead 7-0,13-2, etc etc and the team just takes the out sometimes.
8:58 It is an unfair comparison for Ohtani when you say “only rodon has had a season of 30 starts,” when Ohtani will never have a season of 30 starts because that’s just the nature of being a TWP like him
@@dominickleonardi I watched nearly every one of his starts in 2023 and his era really felt like it got ballooned by a few blow up starts. When he was on, he was unstoppable. Considering that he is entering his third season of mlb play, I can definitely say that he will only get better and will probably be very deserving of ace status.
Great vid, loved the info and citing stats after every talking point as well as using the videos of the best pitchers. (I would say webb is an ace though...)
Ohtani has on average 100 more innings than the pitchers you mentioned while having an above average ERA for a starter. While having the highest K/9 amongst active pitchers. While also serving a team with the worst Bullpen in baseball. On a team that refused to trade him because of 2nd half ticket sales. You also forget he threw a complete game in under 100 pitchers while throwing 88 strikes. Not calling him an ace is an insult to your Baseball knowledge.
I disagree about the idea that a pitch to contact pitcher can’t be an ace. So long as they aren’t giving too much damage, forcing guys to ground or fly out is often more effective than striking them out. Justin Steele was elite in this sense-he let up very few home runs, and forced tons of ground balls. So what if he doesn’t strike as many guys out? Strikeouts don’t win games, letting up few runs while pitching many innings wins games. Yes, if he’s in a jam you might rather have someone else out there, but pitchers like Steele don’t get into jams very often.
only thing i disagree with is burnes is an ace. 4 years in a row finishing top 8 in the cy young. in that span hes pitched 622 innings with a 2.86 era and 765 SO
MLB Track record not long enough yet, presenter pretty strict and I mostly agree. Senga completed 7 innings or more in 5 out of 29 starts in 2023 with a lowish competitive Mets. Regular Cy contender if he is effectively trusted to the deep game.
This is such a waste of time concerning yourself with the subjective semantics of "ace". This word, this classification has literally no value, especially when you arbitrarily restrict the scope of its meaning. This is just a list of your five favorite pitchers.
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My guy used a lot of Pablo Lopez footage for never having mentioned him in any category
Yeah he’s a top 5 pitcher in the league
This year he’s winning cy young
He tips his pitches, at least he did in the 2 games with him that I watched.
He sucks
@@user-eo3gz7ve3yHe's elite when he can be, but I couldn't trust him in the playoffs.
He used a lot of Strider footage when true baseball fans know Fried is the ace.
This guy would think Maddux wasn't an ace because he also pitched to contact when it was needed.
Or glavine
Literally exactly what I was going to comment. He does have a point as to why the K is preferable.
@@rcapogarcia With a man on 1st with less than 2 outs, I'll take a 4 pitch at-bat for a double play rather than 10-11 pitches to strikeout the next 2 hitters. Pitching to contact isn't terrible. Fewer pitches to get the out keeps your pitch count down. Maddux pitched complete games with less than 100 pitches all the time. High volume strike out guys are at 100 pitches in the 7th inning. I know there is an inherent risk in the batter hitting the ball, but guys like Maddux and say a Max Fried induce weak contact.
@@Shan_Cox Agreed, but when you think of the best pitchers high Ks guys are usually the norm. Maddux was and is somewhat of an outlier. Contact guys are usually not as dominant.
My exact thought. This man is an idiot. Groundball pitchers can be aces.
A double play gets more outs than a K
I agree with your 5 picks as aces but to say Logan webb isn’t an ace because he pitches to contact with one of the worst defenses in the league is batshit crazy.
Yup! And 0 run support!
Ya to say the guy that pitches more innings than anyone the last 2 years while being top 10 in Era is not an ace is laughable at best. This guy knows absolutely nothing.
Also said he needs a sinker…
I agree
Said he needs a premiere pitch. But his change up has been one of the most devastating pitches the last 2 years.
"These guys are more worried about throwing strikes than throwing something that's hard for the batter to hit, as a result they can give up a lot of contact and balloon their ERAs"
Also puts Spencer fucking Strider as a true ace despite him throwing so many strikes that it lead to an ERA over 4 last year.
The definition of "teams top pitcher" feels misleading when teams have had multiple aces at once, looking at the 1990's Braves with Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz or the 2-headed monster of Schilling and Johnson on the 2001 Dbacks.
Also Logan Webb is an ace lmao if you wanna say his style "relies on defense" too much keep in mind he placed 2nd in CYA voting with one of the worst defenses in MLB who led the league in errors by a big margin.
Totally agree on the "teams top pitcher", an ace is a top pitcher and a team can have more than one ace. As for Webb, like I said I think he is a really good pitcher, but we can disagree on him being an ace or not. Giants D was terrible with errors, but was still 12th in team Def according to fangraphs, and most of their bad defense according to advanced numbers was from the outfield, which doesn't matter as much to a high groundball pitcher like Webb, C and each INF spot ranked no lower than 13th in MLB.
Logan Webb is definately and ace!
@@SmartrBaseball To me he fits more into the mould of a Maddux than a Johnson, but he's still an ace. His control is still stupid good, given he led the MLB with the best K/BB ratio and still has excellent FIP even better than his RBIs. Having Pat Bailey helps but the Giants infield is generally average at best defensively, they arent making him worse but they arent carrying him the way the Dodgers infield does.
@@SmartrBaseball Any team that has to have Wilmer Flores at 3rd base 22 games out of the year with an .848 fielding percentage is really bad defensively. Brandon Crawford was also nowhere is his usual badass self defensively, plus the bad outfield which still counts even with a ground ball pitcher like Webb. If you don't have Logan Webb as an ace your definition of an ace is pretty suspect.
Don’t forget about the famous “Four Aces” on the Phillies in 08
Logan webb is still the most underrated pitcher in baseball for not making this list. definately an Ace, would like to have him over Gausman and gallen and strider rn. More innings and no difference in ERA with the worst defense in baseball as a groundball pitcher. By far the best ground ball pitcher in the league, he has no comparisons for innings with 216 pitched. 2nd in cy young and projected to lead the league in pitchers war. Dude is an ace on a trash giants roster and I am a giants fan. the fact that he didnt get all mlb team SP or an all star is literally criminal and the league should be embarrassed.
Bro plays in nl west which is a pitchers haven besides Coors. He's great but a sinkerballer and not as electric as gaus
@@ghostofmoredishesmorebitch1507he pitches in a pitchers ballpark for sure but he also has the worst defense in the league as a ground ball pitcher
Nah Webb is better than gaus
100% right! Don’t forget he gets zero run support also!
Cheater
I agree with your point about pitchers who pitch to contact, but numbers strongly suggest that Logan webb is an ace regardless of his style.
2021-2023:
92 G, 556.2 IP
3.07 ERA, 3.00 FIP
23.2% K, 5.2% BB, 0.6 HR/9
14.2 WAR
Those numbers rival or exceed most of the five true aces you named in this video
Maddux pitched to contact and no sane person would say he wasn’t an Ace.
This man just thinks he can residue a term
Not to mention the giants defense is pathetically bad which really effects his stats as a contact pitcher.
I’m shocked you didn’t include Corbin Burnes as an ace. I’m a Yankees fan and I shit my pants thinking about him pitching against the Yanks
I wouldn't be surprised if he was absolutely elite again this year, and if he is like I said he's earned ace status again, I just don't like his Ks/BBs getting noticeably worse the last couple years, but he could easily prove me wrong.
@@SmartrBaseball Burnes numbers stack up favorably against Gallen, Gausman, and Wheeler over the past 3 seasons. I think you're suffering recency bias on Burnes. It's different for Alcantara who tanked, but Burnes still had 200Ks on the nose and 191IP with a low-3s ERA and a sub-4 FIP. It just seemed like a down season; I'd encourage you to go look at Verlander's baseball reference page. He had down years at the same age for inexplicable reasons. Baseball's finicky.
I only think there is 1 ace in baseball (Cole), but to be consistent, I think it should to be a 1 pitcher list or a 6 pitcher list. I'd even say Burnes would be my #3 if I had to rank them---behind Cole and Strider but ahead of the other 3 guys you named.
@@user-fx2bx1gz4c Burnes numbers combined over the last three years are great, but like I said in the video it's that they've been going down, this year will answer any questions though. I can absolutely see him putting up great numbers again, and then it's no question he's an ace, but if they go down again I'm hitting the panic button.
Burnes was lights out in the 2nd half last year.
@@jeffreyjurney2013 He was definitely better second half, walks were still a bit high for my taste, but hopefully it's a sign he gets back to 2021-22 Burnes, I'm rooting for the best version of him which is absolutely filthy.
Dont sleep on max fried. He had injury trouble last year but other than that hes consistently around 30 starts a year, strikeouts,walks,and era all being near the top of MLB. I fully expect him to have a cy young type if season
Not strikeouts tho😂 he's a sinkerballer stop being a dumbass braves fan and see he ks less than a batter an inning
Max Fried is the ace on the best team in baseball
@@MrBookertjones didn't know he was a ranger?
came here to post this. Yeah he missed most of last year but once back, he still looked like an ace and has been an ace the previous several seasons.
@@ghostofmoredishesmorebitch1507 He could be next year. Probably a Dodger though
7 min in and he has yet to name 1 of the aces.
the list starts at 9:43 ridiculous
Definitely took too long to get to the main part. I'm sorry, I don't want to be mean. You explained what your list was, but over explained it. Then you did your list. Awesome. Then you explained what your list was again. Trim it, and you have a great video. I could be being hard on you, but I I enjoy things like this. Hearing people's perspectives. However when I'm not feeling like I get the information quickly enough I feel like my time is being wasted. Lucky for me, I know when to skip a video.
Boo hoo you had to listen to rationale and information 😭😭. This isn’t tik Tok pal, go over there.
@@king_supreme1102 he does this to lengthen his watch time dummy. Its a common practice in social media. So you defending it and making it about attention span shows your complete ignorance to the actual situation going on.
@@king_supreme1102the first ten minutes isn’t information though, it’s just extensive fluff that can be summed up by saying “Aces are the best at getting batters out” on top of footage of double plays and sac flies
I for one am really hoping that knuckleball George Kirby has teased every now and then can become a real pitch for him. He could pound the zone about as much if he pleases if hitters have it in the back of their heads that a legit knuckleball could come out at any time.
I love this haha I can only imagine facing that as a hitter, that would be terrifying!
he only did it once. but he should definitely throw his gausman inspired splitter more
Throwing a good knuckleball is really really hard, otherwise tons of guys would use it. If it's a really good knuckleball it's effective as hell but if it's not thrown perfect it's like throwing batting practice.
@@fuktrumpanzeeskum Smoltz used to throw one every once in a while, and it was hilarious.
So based on your definition Greg Maddux wouldn’t not be an ace pitcher? In what world is only strikeout pitchers aces
Fr
Maddux also struck guys out. And walked NOBODY. Well except for Bonds
@@wingracer1614Maddux’ best K/9 ever was 7.8. Se struck guys out like every pitcher strikes guys out. But he wasn’t a strikeout pitcher.
@@bordomsdeadly Not saying he was a K god, but he did K more guys than most people give him credit for. For instance, he struck out WAY more guys than Glavine while also walking about half as many.
@bordomsdeadly strikeout rate now is also a lot higher than it was then
Dodgers fan here. Every time the Dodgers face Logan Webb, it’s a tough game.
i like kirby the way he is. he'll be the first pitcher to throw 200 innings with only 2 walks
stopped watching the video the second he talked about kirby not throwing balls lol
@@jxgilly Me too!
Ace is the best pitcher in the staff. That’s how it started. Managers would say I’m leading with my ace. Which is putting your best card forward. Around the 90s I noticed people started calling certain pitchers “true Aces.” Which meant legit studs. That’s now how we use the term ace as it’s seems the true part got dropped off and people just call really good pitchers aces. However, every staff still has their number one guy.
Agreed. It's the best pitcher on the team even if he's got a 4+ ERA.
Interesting no mention of Nola. I know he’s had a few rough seasons since his career best 2018 season (including last season), but I’d consider him a 1B. He’s among the most durable pitchers in the game, walks barely anybody and has a nasty arsenal despite only topping out around 92-93. He’s struggled with the long ball though. Hanging watermelon curveballs. I think Nola is gunna have himself a very good 2024.
Nola was one of my guesses too, not knowing exactly what his recent stats were. It feels like he's been that 1B for a prolonged enough period of time he might qualify or be close.
@@coachleif yeah, he had a hard time adjusting to the pitch clock last season. Struggled. 4.46 ERA in 193 innings. But he made a few adjustments in late September (he realized he was standing at an angle on the mound in order to face the pitch clock and incorporated a slide step) and his last 5 starts were 2022-esque. Plus the looming free agency situation. I really think he can still win a Cy Young and will.
An Ace is a Elite Starter who you trust, who can put you in position to win (low FIP/ERA), getting outs (K-rate), and racking up innings.
Gerrit Cole
Kevin Gausman
Zack Wheeler
Spencer Strider
Zac Gallen
I think Sandy Alcantara, and Corbin Burnes could make a comeback... but otherwise, I like the list. (Oh... you did mention them. Lol.)
genuininely thought you were just giving the TL:DR of the video lol
I think that Castillo is in there for being an Ace, Pablo Lopez needs a definite shoutout, and Strider still doesn’t convince me 100% of the time, but he’s on the braves who make up for his weaknesses
Gerett Cole is probably the most dependable pitcher in baseball today if you need a win he will definitely keep you in the game to give the offense the opportunity to win the game.
Isn’t Gerett cole poop in post season? Get he’s a gun during regular but not really an ace or dependable when it matters
@@0ucandoit0 Dude he has better career stats in the postseason than the regular season. Postseason ERA of 2.93 WHIP .94 Regular season ERA 3.17 WHIP 1.08
@@0ucandoit0 gerrit cole was great the rest of the yankees were just ass
@@0ucandoit0 Completely not true. He had 1 bad post season game, wild card against the Red Sox. He’s phenomenal in the playoffs. Nobody talks about how good he was in the 2020 playoffs particularly.
Astros fan here: totally agree with you on Framber Valdez. Love the guy to death and boy is his stuff good, but his propensity to melt down/give up the big inning, as well as his refusal to walk fewer than 3 batters a game, deservedly lands him as not an ace.
An ace to me is someone that could be the guy on a contending team and theres a lot of them. Obviously guys like Cole are aces because they're the best pitchers in the league lmao but to say someone like Logan Webb isn't is silly, he easily could be main or 1A pitcher on a legit contender
I would imagine the part of Burnes's regression last year was partly due to his frustrations with the Brewers. Now that he has a new home on a team with a lot of potential, the Orioles. The Brewers have been on a slow decline, and that can play i pretty big factor in one's performance. Now that he has a legitimate chance to make it deep in the playoffs, don't be surprised to see those numbers swing back in the positive direction. The Orioles's park is also a little more pitcher friendly than the Brewers is.
One of the problems is so many guys look like aces--but only for a short while. There are very few guys who are ace-like year after year.
This shines more light on how truly incredible the Braves rotation in the 90s was. Three Aces. Three hall of famers. In their prime, for over a decade.
I completely agree with this. The biggest component to me is health. You cant be an ace without durability. Aces can go out there tired, without their best stuff, and still go 7. Big reason Cole is my #1 by quite a bit right now... and also a reason I believe Corbin Burnes should be considered an ace. Also, Gausman isnt an ace to me at all.
Strider is the only one i disagree on. I’d replace him with burnes or even fried despite the injury last year
It seems weird to gatekeep the term for guys who had a down year, but then throw in guys who haven't had many years of dominant performance just because they otherwise fit the term.
I definitely knew that Gausman would make the list, we played him in the playoffs and he was so dominant. Crazy good.
Even though Sandy alcantara struggled in 2023, he’s a literal ace, I don’t see how anyone can say he’s not an ace
This guy's understanding of baseball is comparable to my three-year old nephew's understanding of quantum mechanics.
I'm sorry but I'm pushing back on Strider. In order to be considered an ace you really do need to do this for about 3 years straight. Yes his stats are phenomenal but he only has one year under his belt. And how many wonderful one and dones have we seen over the last I don't know 50 years?
I'd say there's a lot of pitching out there right now with Ace potential, but very few of them put it all together for more than a year or two at a time
I grew up in the era of Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux being known as aces. Tossing around the term "ace" is revolting imo. I'm not really sure I call Gallen an ace, even though I'm a DBacks fan. He needs to have more control early game, teams tend to jump on him early. He does have this incredible ability to give up 1, 2, maybe 3 runs in the first inning and shut down the next 6, but I get a little nervous when Gallen starts. He's not a Gerrit Cole/Zach Wheeler level guy IMO
Kirby turned himself into the Ms staff ave last year. Pitch in Seattle, Kirby is going to win multiple Cy Young awards. After thinking about Smell based on this video I cant really argue with that. Last time I saw predictions for the 24' season Kirby, Castro and Gilbert were in the top 10 for best odds at winning the Cy Young. Very much holding out hope they figure out how to bring Snell home that would be 4 TOP 10 PITCHES WITH VERY REALISTIC CHANCES TO WIN THE AL CY YOUNGE.
Framber is always near the top of the list in "in zone balls". His control is better than the numbers and better than you think. I believe that in 2023 he had a game vs Seattle with 18 in zone balls. No other pitcher last season had as many as five in a start. If you look at in zone dBalls (pitched) and out of zone oStrikes (faced) the same teams are always on the top of that list; Oakland, Houston, Baltimore, Tampa, SD, Colorado. Basically Houston and teams that face BOS, NYY, and LAD.
Where's Max Fried? I know he was hurt a lot in 2022 but the years before that he has been really good.
As a cubs fan I know that if Steele is starting then im much more confident in our team to win because I know hes gonna go out and pitch a good game
That's what an ace is. To say only 5 pitchers provide that to a team is wild.
The people complaining in the comments that "this guy wouldn't consider Maddux an Ace" are missing a point I believe. Baseball changes , and when Maddox played he wasn't necessarily considered a "pitch to contact guy" his strikeout numbers in his prime were right around what was the league average mark at the time. Also, standards have changed. Having huge strikeout numbers are hotter right now than ever. A strikeout is always an out (obviously). It's obvious that the league prefers this as well, a Rodon type is always going to get paid more than a Hendricks/Keuchel type of pitcher. This day and age you see more consistent results and longevity out of a pitcher with "stuff" than a lower velocity pitch to contact guy. There is a larger margin for error. All and all it is a well made video that doesn't deserve to get shit on like it has.
Constructive criticism: Name the 5 aces first real quick and then go into detail like you did early in the video about why some of these other players wouldnt be considered aces based on your qualification criteria - which I thought was spot on.
Some great easy analysis here for sure. Love to see it man.
The braves one thru four this year are either former or potential aces: Strider, Fried, Morton, Sale.....it's coming together this year....
Am I the only one who got an obscene number of ads on this vid? It was like every 2 minutes
White Sox had FOUR Starting pitchers with 200 innings or better in 2005..What a special season that was!!! ❤
Skip to 9:30 this guy talks a lot
I wish I could hear a pitching conversation between Gallen and Strom
Before the video even loaded I'm like "The quadfather better be on the list"... and there they are (both of them) front and center in the first second.
For me, a true ace is a guy you can count on to go 7 when the pen is over worked, ( in addition to the other results)
I think one that is really important to keep eyes on with very limited injury history and continual improvement in his performances is Freddy Peralta.
While definitely not an ace right now, he is absolutely emergent as one.
Also, at least spell Burnes' name right...
Sandy Alcantara had an off year last year, but he is an ace. Love this video.
Where would you put Aaron Nola? Personally I feel he falls under the inconsistent grouping, seeing how he did last year specifically to years previously, but I am curious as to what you think about him?
Great video man you know your stuff , now a days rookie’s ate getting the title ace which is crazy to me
No Nathan Eovaldi when the guy has been there every time his team needed is wild.
George Kirby threw his first and only knuckler to Corey Seager. But, yeah, he's nervous about throwing strikes.
I liked and subscribed the minute you said “THIS IS MY LIST I DO WHAT I WANT” 😂
Where's Max Fried?
Fried is great, but hurt too much
Who's winning NL Cy Young this season? Spencer Strider or Max Fried?
@@realisticthought1781
Fried's starts since becoming a full-time starter:
2019: 30 games
2020: 11 (Covid season)
2021: 28
2022: 30
2023: 14
recency bias is blinding you people calling him injury prone.
@Shan_Cox who do you want on the mound in game 7? Strider or Fried? Give me Fried.
@@adamwiggins8290 That's like picking a favorite child. I'd be perfectly content with either. Max has more experience but Spencer is Spencer. For the sake of answering your question tho, I'll say Spencer.
I wholeheartedly disagree with Spencer Strider. The video starts with talking about pitchers making clutch strikeouts. And then the video cites Strider getting unlucky with getting rocked with guys on base.
An ace to me is a 30 start 200 inning guy with a sub 3.50 era. Dependability is important to me and that he can do it year in and year out. His stuff has to be good but doesnt have to be electric. he has to know how to pitch and get out of jams. He has to be able to go deep into games and get a strikeout when he needs it. I also like an ace that doesnt shrink in the biggest moments.
I like you mentioning a guy that rises to the occasion in big moments, what do you think about 200 IP a year with guys not throwing as much?
@SmartrBaseball I'm 29 and a cubs fan so I remember dusty throwing prior and wood into injuries. I think there needs to be a balance. Starters need to be built up to handle that workload, and have a longer leashe. I don't really think a starter who only goes 5 innings did his job. I also think a manager who pulls a guy early is kind of crippling a starters development. I think it causes starters to fold in the playoffs and leads to more pitching changes and bad baseball. I'm probly more old school but I don't think always going for strikeouts is the best strategy. You are just asking for longer counts and walks. Learn to locate and pitch to soft contact. Make the hitter earn his base. Most hitters don't go with the pitch leading to lower averages anyways.
Personally, I find it hard to consider someone an “ace” if they don’t consistently pitch through 6-7 innings. A starter shouldn’t have comparable innings totals to a well-used long reliever. The reduction is innings pitched is entirely on the analytic emphasis on making every pitcher throw as hard as possible and “load management” becoming a norm earlier and earlier in their pitching lives. This is a choice. Baseball is doing it to itself.
6:00 wait, 101 for Loc+ is league average, but 97 is at the bottom of the league? please explain
And out of the 20 I believe 3 belong to the blue jays( Bassett 200, berries 189.2, gausman 185).
As a beting man, an ace is someone I can count on to win the game or keep the game very low.
In that aspect there's alot of aces
Paul Skenes is an ace, someone who can single handedly just dominate batters and take over a game.
Luis Castillo probably should’ve been in those honorable mentions too, dudes top 10 in almost every pitching stat
Ohtani of 2022-23 was an ace, no doubt about it. You have to remember that he was pitching every 6th game, not 5th, so that impacted his innings. If he wasn't a hitter the Angels wouldn't have been using a 6-man rotation.
You've got 5 aces? Well, I've got a can of Wilkins coffee. *shoots*
The one guy you missed that I think lines up with your criteria of an ace is Aaron Nola. Over the last 3 years he's in the same range as the guys you mentioned for IP, BB, SO, and HR. I think the only thing that hasnt been that impressive for him is ERA and Win/Loss.
Nah
@@ChairmanMeow1 which part?
He was ass last year
When he's on, he's an ace, but he's too inconsistent and last year was a down year for him
the catcher framing the ace would effect their numbers would it not?
not taking playoffs into consideration is crazy. gausman since becoming an "ace" has a playoff era over 6, strider over 5 and gallen over 4.5. regular season stats don't mean anything unless you can't replicate it in the postseason.
Let’s be honest, Webb is looking for run support more than that swing n miss pitch!😂
ace pitchers do not need to be stikeout getters. like someone else mentioned, greg maddux is widely regarded as one of the best pitchers if not the best and definitely an ace. Never having a k/9 above 8, with those numbers getting above ten for the strikeout “ace” pitchers of that era
By this guys logic Greg Maddux wouldn’t be an ace but Kevin Gausman would
Excellent video. I was disappointed that Burnes did not make the cut, but I'm an Orioles fan so I'm biased about him
Pitch counts are the problem if they cant get the innings in and the experience of working out of situations they can never turn into an Ace
Verlander had a monster season, he missed time bc of injury… Mets should have kept him for this season
14:55 as part of braves country, we can attest that spencer is extremely unlucky. But also. There’s a bunch of measly 1 run or late extra runs that scored bc the braves offense produced and strider shoved and they lead 7-0,13-2, etc etc and the team just takes the out sometimes.
Braves country knows that Fried is the ace anyway.
His ERA was only 3.86 because he had 2-3 really bad games
@@adamwiggins8290 A team can have multiple aces, but Max Fried is definitely the better one. Over the past 4 seasons he has like a 2.66 era I think.
Great Vid Bro, You got my sub. God I just love baseball YT. And this is the kinda of stuff, i wanna see with spring on the way
Do you worry about Gallen’s strikeout numbers falling off after April 2023? It really felt like he was unreliable after that dominant beginning
Next week, we'll start an argument over the definition of the word "good."
8:58 It is an unfair comparison for Ohtani when you say “only rodon has had a season of 30 starts,” when Ohtani will never have a season of 30 starts because that’s just the nature of being a TWP like him
What do you make of guys like Bradish and Merrill Kelly? 1B type of guys or 2 at best?
As you saw in the playoffs, Merrill Kelly is an absolute bulldog.
merrill kelly is the perfect number 2 bradish is a 3 starter
Your take on Framber Valdez is correct, he's messy as hell, let them seethe.
Gallen’s batted ball statistics are awful. He definitely benefits from playing in a massive stadium.
I feel like the Braves have 2 legitimate Aces actually in Max Fried and Spencer Strider, but that's probably just a fan bias lol
Dude this video was fire keep it up
Ohtani's GS numbers look much better when you remember he was in a 6 man rotation. I believe his availability is just fine.
Took forever to actually get into the video we came to see
Can someone explain to me why Strider is on this list when his ERA is almost 4?
I agree he’s electric but a 4 era is not reliable especially on any team but the braves
@@dominickleonardi I watched nearly every one of his starts in 2023 and his era really felt like it got ballooned by a few blow up starts. When he was on, he was unstoppable. Considering that he is entering his third season of mlb play, I can definitely say that he will only get better and will probably be very deserving of ace status.
Actually there are only 4 Aces and if you have 5. You are Cheating
Great vid, loved the info and citing stats after every talking point as well as using the videos of the best pitchers. (I would say webb is an ace though...)
Ohtani has on average 100 more innings than the pitchers you mentioned while having an above average ERA for a starter. While having the highest K/9 amongst active pitchers. While also serving a team with the worst Bullpen in baseball. On a team that refused to trade him because of 2nd half ticket sales.
You also forget he threw a complete game in under 100 pitchers while throwing 88 strikes. Not calling him an ace is an insult to your Baseball knowledge.
I disagree about the idea that a pitch to contact pitcher can’t be an ace. So long as they aren’t giving too much damage, forcing guys to ground or fly out is often more effective than striking them out. Justin Steele was elite in this sense-he let up very few home runs, and forced tons of ground balls. So what if he doesn’t strike as many guys out? Strikeouts don’t win games, letting up few runs while pitching many innings wins games. Yes, if he’s in a jam you might rather have someone else out there, but pitchers like Steele don’t get into jams very often.
This is a pretty narrow minded way to narrow it down to 5 for contents sake. I still watched it though so I won’t complain too much
Generally speaking, an ace is a team's number 1 pitcher. Not all aces are elite and teams like Oakland who aren't even trying are an exception.
How about you actually watch the video you scrub.
only thing i disagree with is burnes is an ace. 4 years in a row finishing top 8 in the cy young. in that span hes pitched 622 innings with a 2.86 era and 765 SO
Tim Lincecum was def an ace for awhile. I really want to see how Skenes does in the big league.
Haven’t watched the full video yet but if he says Strider is an ace because of his low FIP I stg
where is kodei senga??? how do you not mention him? idk if he’s 1a ace but he’s definitely 1b…
MLB Track record not long enough yet, presenter pretty strict and I mostly agree. Senga completed 7 innings or more in 5 out of 29 starts in 2023 with a lowish competitive Mets. Regular Cy contender if he is effectively trusted to the deep game.
Strider added a curveball NL is in serious trouble 😂
someone who actually recognizes how good the Jays best pitcher is??? We didnt even recognize it we made Manoah the opening day starter last year...
This is such a waste of time concerning yourself with the subjective semantics of "ace". This word, this classification has literally no value, especially when you arbitrarily restrict the scope of its meaning. This is just a list of your five favorite pitchers.
4 minutes in and he’s telling Justin Steele to throw sinkers, an immediate sign that you literally don’t know what you’re talking about 😂
i see 2or 3 aces that are healthy, and strider was pitching his way out of it last time we saw him, its pretty much just cole