0:45 Correction, Ezel was technically using the Keter Pile even before Rezael came along. It was just Teithfallt, WoB, & Ezel's Order back then. It only truly became popular after Cerrgaon was released & can be tech in any Keter deck.
True, I would say it was less known as a pile in comparison to how we refer to it now. The generics felt like they had more of a choice to them whereas now the "pile" became more so established with Cerrgaon and then recognised with Rezael. But yeah Cerrgaon was the final push over the line that brought it more to the forefront.
It only started getting called keter pile after cerrgoan came out with luard being the main keter pile due to just how strong the resource generation was and the fact it's live on grade 2
Ezel was really just using Teithfal long before Teithfal was even looked at the rest of the deck was almost all Ezel engine hardly could be considered a pile deck.
@@elin111 WoB was also used in Ezel along with Teithfallt & Ezel's order since the deck tend to have good units stuck in hand but not enough cards to guard with. So it was using 2/3 of the Keter Pile as an egine.
my experience with keter pile was that it homogenized deck building in keter so much that it turned me into playing solrairon since it was one of the few decks that could legitimately not use a majority of keter pile.
After seeing this video I came to the understanding the issues: 1) The fact that people see the Keter Pile in deck profiles automatically indicate that they have to put in their to see valuable play, but that's not really the case if you're playing for fun doesn't mean you need those cards in your deck. 2) Bushiroad really need to improve their reprinting strategy to make cards accessible, because if they don't the players are gonna invest less in the game and potentially quit all together and Bushiroad will have the same issue as Buddyfight.
Yeah if you're just playing for fun then pricey staples may matter less since there are definately cheaper alternatives at the cost of them being less efficient in most cases. Vanguard has always suffered with it's longevity from a severe lack of reprinting and entry products for new players. Early days are great, but after a while the problems start to show again.
I've said it a few times to people and I'll say it here; if a card game is going to have generic staples in it's pool then it needs either a rotation system ala MtG/Pokemon to eventually cycle them out or a more aggressive reprint system ala Yu-Gi-Oh to keep older cards from becoming absurdly high priced and hard to get the longer they're out.
So glad someone mentions how boring the keter pile is. I find it takes away from a decks Identity, because instead of seeing a deck using cards meant for it, we more often just see the keter pile being the only thing used. Its also frustrating since the keter pile makes it really annoying going second against Keter sense you basically are more often then not going into turn 3 with more damage then you want, or almost no cards in your hand to actually play your deck while your opponent has enough cards in their hand to only take 1 or 2 damage from your attacks, at least Aelquilibra, who can rush early with harder to guard attacks, has the downside of usually using a lot of resources to do so. This is from experience playing online, I haven't seen much of the pile irl because of it being more pricey, which i'm glad for.
One of the irritations I experienced was my decks feeling watered down, Keter Pile made improvements but another deck could utilise it better. I hated how I was building around the engine and not the Ride Lines themselves, but it's difficult when multiple of them want to play the same generics. It just got tiresome and I wanted something fresh 😕
Yes. I play all keter divine units. I have the dogs and the order but i just really like the dogs. The teitfallt is indeed strong but it's so expensive. The order tho is strong as well, but the 2 draw almost always draw something i didn't want to draw. Also don't like the idea of playing a lot of orders in this current meta, since you have to guard in the early game due to opponents late game power spike. Regalis pieces is an exception due you only have 1 in your deck. In the japanese format which i play, almost all rezael already ditch teitfallt into something more accessible like cadwalla due to the amount of G3 you have to put into your deck. If you still force yourself to play the order, it just brick hand And yes for personal rants. I hate the teitfallt due someone in my locals always saying something like "if keter doesn't play keter pile the deck couldn't work properly". Always hearing that BS made me hate the card more lol
Cerrgaon is cool, I find it to be the most splashable into other Keter decks with the conditions being so easy to meet. The Order side of the pile is a little bit risky I have noticed depending on the deck it's put in since playing 4 non-shield cards can really hurt especially with how hard things hit for now so I can understand the shift to Cadwalla. Yeah it's pretty bad when these generics end up becoming over relied on 😅
Honestly, I think this is the result of Bushi choosing not to make early game cards for decks. Rezael popularized Keter Pile, and the purpose for that engine there was to provide a solid early game. People saw the success it had and ran them in other Keter decks they found with spare deck space that also had the same issue. Nobody wants to commit their in-engine cards to rush when they all have effects locked behind G3 VG, or even worse, on place search/draw effects locked behind G3 VG. What Bushi should do is lock these draw/search effects the same way Bushi lock the System Code token for the Impauldio G1 rideline - reveal the specific G3 Vanguard unit in your ride deck or be on said G3 Vanguard. Certain decks can really use this change. I fully agree with the final statement. I've seen so much criticism towards players and their card choices when they even include just a single one of those 3 cards in their builds. You can dislike generics and their prices, but don't disrespect the players.
I also think one of the major advantages Rezael had while showcasing the power of the Keter pile was that it had an in engine counter charger of which you could filter towards as well, so there was less fear of CB denial for turn 3 whilst also gaining a early game push whilst generating card advantage. Yeah I can understand the frustration of it but players are going to use what they can to improve their decks at the end of the day.
@johnnywu8708 The problem now is people are actually cutting into their decks engines for the sake of throwing in the pile. Not just in Keter, this trend of running very few engine cards and just cramming as many generic staples as possible is showing in other nations too. I mean, just look at Licsiafael for a deck that is well over 70% generics.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it... but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't getting bored of it now 😅 I have noticed a slight shift with some decks like Rezael Vita opting out of this engine, so depending on the deck there can definately be pros and cons. Share your thoughts below! I think we can all agree that there would be less frustration if the cards were more accessible to players.
Every Keter i've seen Plays the pile, but the one I play is Thegrea and the deck can only fit the dog, and Since Cerrgaon released, it fixed like 50% of the issues with the deck, Thegrea lacked hand/shield for the first 3 turns, the doggo gave you that. It's the dog the one that makes the pile work, it individually does so much for any deck at 0 cost (SB/CB).
Order package in general is good and will be valuable into the future. The dark states pile (Oriens + Philya + Avarice Wrester) is good in Odium but also any future dark states deck that requires normal orders because it's very unlikely any archetypical support will be better (unless Bushi is full on powercreeping).
It's a reason why generics overall should be way more accessible since future decks that release will most likely be more dependable on them until they receive as good or better archetypal support to where they don't need them as much, maybe some but not as many.
Ill be honest as a Keter/Dark States Main its been frustrating which is why i have been playing Alden with only Cerragon and using the Order A Warriors Rest, yes i could just throw in the whole keter pile and be stronger overall, honestly i want to experiment more with other cards, probably going to do a similar thing with Razael Vita because unless i have to for the BCS season im gonna just try and make it fun for me
Besides the obvious price gating problem, Keter pile makes Keter decks really boring to play against and even Keter people I know have said deckbuilding for Keter has gotten terribly stale when nearly half of every deck looks exactly the same. That besides plenty of them also pointing out how inteherently bricky the pile is. This is same problem Stoichea had with Inlet Pulse being thrown around the place back in 2022 only it is 11-12 cards instead of 3-4.
It's so demoralising to be building a deck for a ride line you like only to discover that it ends up playing the same pile of cards you've already been playing with in another deck 😕
@@GuardianCircleCFV 100% the entire reason why I gravitated towards Flamme Glam as a Lyrical deck is because the deck by its very nature can't even run any of the usual culprits of pile decks. By Set 5 the deck is 100% pure engine and I like that.
I mean card design wise you can never really avoid it. If the main Vanguard has a generic skill of course you are going to use the best generic cards. Other decks like DE just don't have a good early game order and/or are soul hungry, but you see Shenryi in almost every DE deck that doesn't have a unique gimmick.
Yeah these generics can really help with filling gaps, I truly feel like people would have less of a problem with them if they weren't so expensive and inaccessible. It causes people to look for alternatives which they can't find since everyone is playing the same stuff. Of course it can't be helped since people will naturally gravitate towards what functions the best.
The Keter Pile frustrates me on a personal level because I'm a Keter main, and while it certainly a good engine, there's no denying that it hampers creative deck building which is something I'm really happy to see with Rezael Vita because it forces players to step away from it and rethink. And while Bushiroad shouldn't HAVE to do it, players latch onto things really easily and its hard for us to let go if it works. I do agree though that Bushiroad needs to reconsider their reprint problem because as more and more Keter decks are created, this engine goes up in value. And therefore more expensive. Which makes me really wish they'd, ontop of releasing whatever weird collab product, they'd release something actually beneficial for the game. Like a new trial deck or a deckset that reprints staples like the Keter engine. Just something that benefits the game as a whole vs something quirky and does ultimately nothing to help keep Vanguard as a game valuable and affordable.
Couldn't agree more, it's also a case of wanting to do something different as well and that being difficult to do when an engine like this is so strong it's hard to move away from it. It also creates a situation where the only way to move on from them is to simply print better cards. More in engine support for ride lines seems to help with this atleast.
@@GuardianCircleCFV Personally speaking, I think engines like that should be left to newer Keter decks to give them strong generics to fall back on while they wait for the next waves of support. Older decks should be getting support to where generics aren't needed to keep them afloat.
@@Navrex07 I'd agree with that, it's tough of course for any new Keter deck without enough in engine support to where they have to fall back to expensive generics.
As a MTG player, i see this with good eyes. Accessible, generic and of course, cheap in price. NOT. To me, the issue i hav with current vanguard is that we have 6 colors and more than a 100 clans. Most cards are too specific or require an action, easily done by a specific rdeline, that makes the card be a vanilla otherwise. And tbf, the best decks in this game are not even those high tier competitive, but instead the "Standalone Grade 3s" like Shieldfisher dragon, Halmveld, Time Stamping Dragon, Alter-Slaughter, Spinomarquis,... And the point is that you go nitpicking through every card in the game for generic good stuff in order to play with those. Also, their limitations make deckbuilding even more challenging, like building a Highlander-like deck for Time Stamping or a recursion deck for Shieldfisher.
My usual response to any complaints against Keter Pile is that it's not the cards nor the players at fault. Yes, this package is strong and boring but honestly it's not some tier 0 broken combo. The true problem is the Archetypal support of Keter has just been bad overall(there are exceptions). The only reason Keter pile is the go-to package for any deck that can afford to run it is because other cards just arent as good. If you compare similar cards in a vacuum, you'll notice quite a disparity in what Keter cards can do and/or cost to play. Keter Pile is just simple, reliable, and usually better than whatever support Bushiroad has given your deck to play. Think about it, usually for most decks generics are the first to be cut from the deck favoring powerful archetype support but Keter decks have the opposite problems, cutting weaker archetype cards to add in the pile.
Yeah when the generics are overshadowing the direct support of a Ride Line, that's where seeing too much of the same thing across multiple decks just becomes tiresome. But like you mentioned if they improve the deck, then of course play them since if you've got nothing else better to use you might as well until further support that's better is provided.
I tried building Halmveld not too long ago to give more of a deserved home to the pile cards, but it kinda just felt like a lost cause since I knew there were just better decks that can utilise the pile better. Halmveld is a cool unit, neat design but it needs some much needed direct support.
@@GuardianCircleCFV Add another to the list of problems that Keter Pile introduces, why bother playing any Keter deck that uses the pile other than the one that abuses it the most? And looking at JP results it really seems to be the case.
TLDR. I agree with choice restricting but with the current releases either not doing well enough, not using it at all or new cards being made that achieve same result why do it at all. I think it has to do with success in a sense. Keter pile decks run very well and yes they do top however unlike when Luard had access to Cerrgaon and Nui to Doji/Dragveda the decks that are topping are not as consistent and the ones that are is by a handful. For example we just had Duluth, Costa Rica, Peru, and Sacramento BCS and out of the decks that are listed on VG paradox in total only 6 out of the 82 listed were keter sanctuary/pile. So even if they do the best they could do is something like choice restrict teithfallt from being in a deck with cerrgaon and vice versa i think but then why do that when bushi is making newer decks are moving away from it or new stuff is getting added where you can do the same pile with just one different card and hit the same results.
Basically what Lux said, because they're not seeing overwhelming results in the Keter decks that do see tops, there's no real reason to restrict them. It just kinda sucks from a deck building perspective since the room you do have to make choices outside of the ride deck, triggers and pgs is becoming more tight when the same generics end up filling the gaps.
Keter pile has killed every deck in Keter imo. Razael isn't even a good unit, 13k swinging every turn is pretty abysmal in a format with constant 30k+ columns in every other deck But because of Keter pile it still sees tops. Keter pile also makes it so most decks in Keter are unplayable without it cuz why would you limit yourself when you have a god tier +3-4 every turn engine And what really sucks, as a luard player of over a decade ONLY my deck is hit with a ban hammer instead of banning the god Forsaken dog out right, there's a special place in hell for that dog. It's clear bushiroad only cares about money and not the health of the game anymore, they've broken every single promise they made since the 1st reboot and this game only gets worse and worse as time progresses, which is sad cuz if you eliminate the 2 DE decks, the Keter pile trash, and stoicheas 2 decks, we are in one of the healthiest formats in the games history (let's not talk about how over triggers ruined this game but let's keep that in mind too)
Bro, what? Rezael is usually swinging with a 13-15k booster, so its own attack is not weak. Rezael usually has 30-40k columns that draw you lots of cards. I think you really have no clue what you're talking about.
Stay based Youth players (myself included). Keep falling without Keter piles cuz even you do, you still not gain full benifits from it. Must fullBLAST people faces. While they stomping you, you still assemble-ing your RGB in soul😂.
My problem with people having problem with Keter Piles is that Keter isnt even the top dog - so it makes 0 sense to reprint it when DE needs more reprints as its seeing more play. Even post Vita and Set 5, they dont even play Teit - Its Valtrossa!
I think reprints are a net positive for all players regardless of the Nation or tops. I can understand the perspective of the Nation not topping enough to where Bushi feel like they don't need to take any immediate actions, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. I don't agree with the idea of only looking at things through one lens, there are plenty of casual players that I'm sure would love to have access to cards like Teithfallt and Valtrossa. I'm more so coming from the perspective of inaccessibility and creativity in deck building.
@ i mean yes, more reprints in the game is good dont get me wrong, but the pile isnt over-saturating - if anything, not all decks play it Dzbt01 is where Rez popularized it, and maybe Luard which stopped using it Dzbt02 - liael maybe? Only because there wasnt anything even useful for it Dzbt03 was not good for Teit cause Mordlion need a specific build 04 - Alden really needed teit to hit numbers Most of the time, the pile is just used in decks that dont have enough cards that they rely on generics to help them through
It might not be over-saturating, but they're still used in enough decks to where there's still a clear demand which is reflected by the market. As you mentioned it's usally because they don't have enough direct support, which in itself is pretty bad that the only way they can somewhat try to catch up is to throw in this pile, the next pile or the pile after that. Point is these generics should be more accessible across the board. Valtrossa and other generics being introduced through Festival Booster was a terrible long term decision.
0:45 Correction, Ezel was technically using the Keter Pile even before Rezael came along. It was just Teithfallt, WoB, & Ezel's Order back then. It only truly became popular after Cerrgaon was released & can be tech in any Keter deck.
True, I would say it was less known as a pile in comparison to how we refer to it now. The generics felt like they had more of a choice to them whereas now the "pile" became more so established with Cerrgaon and then recognised with Rezael. But yeah Cerrgaon was the final push over the line that brought it more to the forefront.
It only started getting called keter pile after cerrgoan came out with luard being the main keter pile due to just how strong the resource generation was and the fact it's live on grade 2
Ezel was really just using Teithfal long before Teithfal was even looked at the rest of the deck was almost all Ezel engine hardly could be considered a pile deck.
@@elin111 WoB was also used in Ezel along with Teithfallt & Ezel's order since the deck tend to have good units stuck in hand but not enough cards to guard with. So it was using 2/3 of the Keter Pile as an egine.
@@Wslasher Ezel always used its own Order over WoB
Its times like these Im so glad Bastion is my Keter deck.
I do wish sometimes that I continued with Bastion 😔
my experience with keter pile was that it homogenized deck building in keter so much that it turned me into playing solrairon since it was one of the few decks that could legitimately not use a majority of keter pile.
I did exactly the same thing 😂We got rewarded for it too since we have the new Masques form to look forward to.
After seeing this video I came to the understanding the issues: 1) The fact that people see the Keter Pile in deck profiles automatically indicate that they have to put in their to see valuable play, but that's not really the case if you're playing for fun doesn't mean you need those cards in your deck. 2) Bushiroad really need to improve their reprinting strategy to make cards accessible, because if they don't the players are gonna invest less in the game and potentially quit all together and Bushiroad will have the same issue as Buddyfight.
Yeah if you're just playing for fun then pricey staples may matter less since there are definately cheaper alternatives at the cost of them being less efficient in most cases. Vanguard has always suffered with it's longevity from a severe lack of reprinting and entry products for new players. Early days are great, but after a while the problems start to show again.
(looks at energy generator printing) unlikely
I've said it a few times to people and I'll say it here; if a card game is going to have generic staples in it's pool then it needs either a rotation system ala MtG/Pokemon to eventually cycle them out or a more aggressive reprint system ala Yu-Gi-Oh to keep older cards from becoming absurdly high priced and hard to get the longer they're out.
i want all CARDFIGHT vanguard video games to be fully animated exactly like anime
So glad someone mentions how boring the keter pile is. I find it takes away from a decks Identity, because instead of seeing a deck using cards meant for it, we more often just see the keter pile being the only thing used. Its also frustrating since the keter pile makes it really annoying going second against Keter sense you basically are more often then not going into turn 3 with more damage then you want, or almost no cards in your hand to actually play your deck while your opponent has enough cards in their hand to only take 1 or 2 damage from your attacks, at least Aelquilibra, who can rush early with harder to guard attacks, has the downside of usually using a lot of resources to do so. This is from experience playing online, I haven't seen much of the pile irl because of it being more pricey, which i'm glad for.
One of the irritations I experienced was my decks feeling watered down, Keter Pile made improvements but another deck could utilise it better. I hated how I was building around the engine and not the Ride Lines themselves, but it's difficult when multiple of them want to play the same generics. It just got tiresome and I wanted something fresh 😕
Yes. I play all keter divine units. I have the dogs and the order but i just really like the dogs.
The teitfallt is indeed strong but it's so expensive.
The order tho is strong as well, but the 2 draw almost always draw something i didn't want to draw. Also don't like the idea of playing a lot of orders in this current meta, since you have to guard in the early game due to opponents late game power spike. Regalis pieces is an exception due you only have 1 in your deck.
In the japanese format which i play, almost all rezael already ditch teitfallt into something more accessible like cadwalla due to the amount of G3 you have to put into your deck. If you still force yourself to play the order, it just brick hand
And yes for personal rants. I hate the teitfallt due someone in my locals always saying something like "if keter doesn't play keter pile the deck couldn't work properly". Always hearing that BS made me hate the card more lol
Cerrgaon is cool, I find it to be the most splashable into other Keter decks with the conditions being so easy to meet. The Order side of the pile is a little bit risky I have noticed depending on the deck it's put in since playing 4 non-shield cards can really hurt especially with how hard things hit for now so I can understand the shift to Cadwalla.
Yeah it's pretty bad when these generics end up becoming over relied on 😅
Honestly, I think this is the result of Bushi choosing not to make early game cards for decks. Rezael popularized Keter Pile, and the purpose for that engine there was to provide a solid early game. People saw the success it had and ran them in other Keter decks they found with spare deck space that also had the same issue. Nobody wants to commit their in-engine cards to rush when they all have effects locked behind G3 VG, or even worse, on place search/draw effects locked behind G3 VG. What Bushi should do is lock these draw/search effects the same way Bushi lock the System Code token for the Impauldio G1 rideline - reveal the specific G3 Vanguard unit in your ride deck or be on said G3 Vanguard. Certain decks can really use this change.
I fully agree with the final statement. I've seen so much criticism towards players and their card choices when they even include just a single one of those 3 cards in their builds. You can dislike generics and their prices, but don't disrespect the players.
I also think one of the major advantages Rezael had while showcasing the power of the Keter pile was that it had an in engine counter charger of which you could filter towards as well, so there was less fear of CB denial for turn 3 whilst also gaining a early game push whilst generating card advantage.
Yeah I can understand the frustration of it but players are going to use what they can to improve their decks at the end of the day.
@johnnywu8708 The problem now is people are actually cutting into their decks engines for the sake of throwing in the pile. Not just in Keter, this trend of running very few engine cards and just cramming as many generic staples as possible is showing in other nations too.
I mean, just look at Licsiafael for a deck that is well over 70% generics.
I know its not as bad in brant gate but i get your pain when looking at buying the cube of interchangable generics and promo hell
Based Mordalion for not Piling the Keters
If it ain't broke, don't fix it... but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't getting bored of it now 😅
I have noticed a slight shift with some decks like Rezael Vita opting out of this engine, so depending on the deck there can definately be pros and cons.
Share your thoughts below! I think we can all agree that there would be less frustration if the cards were more accessible to players.
Every Keter i've seen Plays the pile, but the one I play is Thegrea and the deck can only fit the dog, and Since Cerrgaon released, it fixed like 50% of the issues with the deck, Thegrea lacked hand/shield for the first 3 turns, the doggo gave you that. It's the dog the one that makes the pile work, it individually does so much for any deck at 0 cost (SB/CB).
Yeah Cerrgaon is crazy good, definately the most flexible one it's own merits but for sure solidified the "pile" today as we know it now.
Order package in general is good and will be valuable into the future.
The dark states pile (Oriens + Philya + Avarice Wrester) is good in Odium but also any future dark states deck that requires normal orders because it's very unlikely any archetypical support will be better (unless Bushi is full on powercreeping).
It's a reason why generics overall should be way more accessible since future decks that release will most likely be more dependable on them until they receive as good or better archetypal support to where they don't need them as much, maybe some but not as many.
I'd we want to be even more specific we can add bishcoty in that pile
True, when in doubt throw in some cyclers 😅
Ill be honest as a Keter/Dark States Main its been frustrating which is why i have been playing Alden with only Cerragon and using the Order A Warriors Rest, yes i could just throw in the whole keter pile and be stronger overall, honestly i want to experiment more with other cards, probably going to do a similar thing with Razael Vita because unless i have to for the BCS season im gonna just try and make it fun for me
I feel exactly the same way, funnily enough I also decided to pick up Alden recently but I probably won't profile it until Set 5 at this point 😆
0:30 If you are living under the rock, break the rock.
Sorry, I can stop myself making anime joke about Keter player in Keter video.
Keter rock is the best rock 🪨
What’s a good card to replace the doggo?
Besides the obvious price gating problem, Keter pile makes Keter decks really boring to play against and even Keter people I know have said deckbuilding for Keter has gotten terribly stale when nearly half of every deck looks exactly the same. That besides plenty of them also pointing out how inteherently bricky the pile is.
This is same problem Stoichea had with Inlet Pulse being thrown around the place back in 2022 only it is 11-12 cards instead of 3-4.
It's so demoralising to be building a deck for a ride line you like only to discover that it ends up playing the same pile of cards you've already been playing with in another deck 😕
@@GuardianCircleCFV 100% the entire reason why I gravitated towards Flamme Glam as a Lyrical deck is because the deck by its very nature can't even run any of the usual culprits of pile decks. By Set 5 the deck is 100% pure engine and I like that.
it was a mistake not to buy a pile of Teithfallts at the time
I got lucky with the way things turned out since I needed it for Ezel which came out in the same set.
I mean card design wise you can never really avoid it. If the main Vanguard has a generic skill of course you are going to use the best generic cards. Other decks like DE just don't have a good early game order and/or are soul hungry, but you see Shenryi in almost every DE deck that doesn't have a unique gimmick.
Yeah these generics can really help with filling gaps, I truly feel like people would have less of a problem with them if they weren't so expensive and inaccessible. It causes people to look for alternatives which they can't find since everyone is playing the same stuff. Of course it can't be helped since people will naturally gravitate towards what functions the best.
The Keter Pile frustrates me on a personal level because I'm a Keter main, and while it certainly a good engine, there's no denying that it hampers creative deck building which is something I'm really happy to see with Rezael Vita because it forces players to step away from it and rethink. And while Bushiroad shouldn't HAVE to do it, players latch onto things really easily and its hard for us to let go if it works.
I do agree though that Bushiroad needs to reconsider their reprint problem because as more and more Keter decks are created, this engine goes up in value. And therefore more expensive. Which makes me really wish they'd, ontop of releasing whatever weird collab product, they'd release something actually beneficial for the game. Like a new trial deck or a deckset that reprints staples like the Keter engine. Just something that benefits the game as a whole vs something quirky and does ultimately nothing to help keep Vanguard as a game valuable and affordable.
Couldn't agree more, it's also a case of wanting to do something different as well and that being difficult to do when an engine like this is so strong it's hard to move away from it.
It also creates a situation where the only way to move on from them is to simply print better cards. More in engine support for ride lines seems to help with this atleast.
@@GuardianCircleCFV Personally speaking, I think engines like that should be left to newer Keter decks to give them strong generics to fall back on while they wait for the next waves of support.
Older decks should be getting support to where generics aren't needed to keep them afloat.
@@Navrex07 I'd agree with that, it's tough of course for any new Keter deck without enough in engine support to where they have to fall back to expensive generics.
As a MTG player, i see this with good eyes.
Accessible, generic and of course, cheap in price. NOT.
To me, the issue i hav with current vanguard is that we have 6 colors and more than a 100 clans. Most cards are too specific or require an action, easily done by a specific rdeline, that makes the card be a vanilla otherwise.
And tbf, the best decks in this game are not even those high tier competitive, but instead the "Standalone Grade 3s" like Shieldfisher dragon, Halmveld, Time Stamping Dragon, Alter-Slaughter, Spinomarquis,... And the point is that you go nitpicking through every card in the game for generic good stuff in order to play with those. Also, their limitations make deckbuilding even more challenging, like building a Highlander-like deck for Time Stamping or a recursion deck for Shieldfisher.
My usual response to any complaints against Keter Pile is that it's not the cards nor the players at fault. Yes, this package is strong and boring but honestly it's not some tier 0 broken combo. The true problem is the Archetypal support of Keter has just been bad overall(there are exceptions). The only reason Keter pile is the go-to package for any deck that can afford to run it is because other cards just arent as good. If you compare similar cards in a vacuum, you'll notice quite a disparity in what Keter cards can do and/or cost to play. Keter Pile is just simple, reliable, and usually better than whatever support Bushiroad has given your deck to play. Think about it, usually for most decks generics are the first to be cut from the deck favoring powerful archetype support but Keter decks have the opposite problems, cutting weaker archetype cards to add in the pile.
Yeah when the generics are overshadowing the direct support of a Ride Line, that's where seeing too much of the same thing across multiple decks just becomes tiresome. But like you mentioned if they improve the deck, then of course play them since if you've got nothing else better to use you might as well until further support that's better is provided.
If they weren't so hard to get and overused, they would have made Halmveld a cool niche deck
I tried building Halmveld not too long ago to give more of a deserved home to the pile cards, but it kinda just felt like a lost cause since I knew there were just better decks that can utilise the pile better. Halmveld is a cool unit, neat design but it needs some much needed direct support.
@@GuardianCircleCFV Add another to the list of problems that Keter Pile introduces, why bother playing any Keter deck that uses the pile other than the one that abuses it the most? And looking at JP results it really seems to be the case.
Why not choice restict these 3 in particular
TLDR. I agree with choice restricting but with the current releases either not doing well enough, not using it at all or new cards being made that achieve same result why do it at all.
I think it has to do with success in a sense. Keter pile decks run very well and yes they do top however unlike when Luard had access to Cerrgaon and Nui to Doji/Dragveda the decks that are topping are not as consistent and the ones that are is by a handful. For example we just had Duluth, Costa Rica, Peru, and Sacramento BCS and out of the decks that are listed on VG paradox in total only 6 out of the 82 listed were keter sanctuary/pile. So even if they do the best they could do is something like choice restrict teithfallt from being in a deck with cerrgaon and vice versa i think but then why do that when bushi is making newer decks are moving away from it or new stuff is getting added where you can do the same pile with just one different card and hit the same results.
Basically what Lux said, because they're not seeing overwhelming results in the Keter decks that do see tops, there's no real reason to restrict them. It just kinda sucks from a deck building perspective since the room you do have to make choices outside of the ride deck, triggers and pgs is becoming more tight when the same generics end up filling the gaps.
Bushiroads reprinting is awful, but I think the real trick is to just be okay with not having a fully optimized deck
Keter pile has killed every deck in Keter imo.
Razael isn't even a good unit, 13k swinging every turn is pretty abysmal in a format with constant 30k+ columns in every other deck
But because of Keter pile it still sees tops.
Keter pile also makes it so most decks in Keter are unplayable without it cuz why would you limit yourself when you have a god tier +3-4 every turn engine
And what really sucks, as a luard player of over a decade ONLY my deck is hit with a ban hammer instead of banning the god Forsaken dog out right, there's a special place in hell for that dog.
It's clear bushiroad only cares about money and not the health of the game anymore, they've broken every single promise they made since the 1st reboot and this game only gets worse and worse as time progresses, which is sad cuz if you eliminate the 2 DE decks, the Keter pile trash, and stoicheas 2 decks, we are in one of the healthiest formats in the games history (let's not talk about how over triggers ruined this game but let's keep that in mind too)
Bro, what?
Rezael is usually swinging with a 13-15k booster, so its own attack is not weak.
Rezael usually has 30-40k columns that draw you lots of cards.
I think you really have no clue what you're talking about.
Guargaon
Stay based Youth players (myself included). Keep falling without Keter piles cuz even you do, you still not gain full benifits from it. Must fullBLAST people faces. While they stomping you, you still assemble-ing your RGB in soul😂.
My problem with people having problem with Keter Piles is that Keter isnt even the top dog - so it makes 0 sense to reprint it when DE needs more reprints as its seeing more play. Even post Vita and Set 5, they dont even play Teit - Its Valtrossa!
I think reprints are a net positive for all players regardless of the Nation or tops. I can understand the perspective of the Nation not topping enough to where Bushi feel like they don't need to take any immediate actions, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. I don't agree with the idea of only looking at things through one lens, there are plenty of casual players that I'm sure would love to have access to cards like Teithfallt and Valtrossa. I'm more so coming from the perspective of inaccessibility and creativity in deck building.
@ i mean yes, more reprints in the game is good dont get me wrong, but the pile isnt over-saturating - if anything, not all decks play it
Dzbt01 is where Rez popularized it, and maybe Luard which stopped using it
Dzbt02 - liael maybe? Only because there wasnt anything even useful for it
Dzbt03 was not good for Teit cause Mordlion need a specific build
04 - Alden really needed teit to hit numbers
Most of the time, the pile is just used in decks that dont have enough cards that they rely on generics to help them through
It might not be over-saturating, but they're still used in enough decks to where there's still a clear demand which is reflected by the market. As you mentioned it's usally because they don't have enough direct support, which in itself is pretty bad that the only way they can somewhat try to catch up is to throw in this pile, the next pile or the pile after that. Point is these generics should be more accessible across the board. Valtrossa and other generics being introduced through Festival Booster was a terrible long term decision.