John Mark Comer on the Crisis in Discipleship and Why Church Services Aren't Resonating
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 พ.ค. 2024
- In Part 5 of the Church Trends series, John Mark Comer talks about the crisis in discipleship.
John Mark also dives into the stages of spiritual growth, why weekend services and sermons aren't resonating like they used to, and how to determine your real motives. John Mark Comer and Carey discuss what's wrong with today's church services and why they're perhaps not enough, and why John Mark's no longer traveling and speaking.
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Chapters
0:00:00 - John Mark Comer and the Sunday Service
0:01:10 - Welcome to the podcast
0:02:21 - Stepping down from leading a church
0:06:30 - The shadow side of the church model
0:14:48 - Why church is underwhelming
0:35:48 - Moving through the stages of spiritual formation
0:50:47 - Determining our motivations
1:09:50 - Practicing the way
1:21:00 - Training versus trying
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I finally found someone who has put some words to where I think/feel I’m at regarding church
I agree. Soft sermons I can do without.
Exactly. His talk on being deconstructed by God through suffering is spot on.
Welcome.
Reimagining church is no easy task. It is unfortunately much easier to pretend everything is fine "as is". Great conversation, thank you for sharing.
I remember talking with John Mark during the height of his mega church career and trying to talk about my frustrations and questions with the church and people not being transformed and discipled. I was pretty much shutdown and put in my place as a naive, less educated person working in youth ministry. I too am thankful for JM's journey and honesty in this podcast as it does clearly communicate both the dangers of the American church structure and what is needed. I am glad some of our American "christian stars and hero's" are beginning to speak out because the voice of the common practitioner who is trying to follow Jesus and mature as a disciple most times gets squashed by those in power in the pulpit. I have very much appreciated JM's Practicing the Way material as I believe it is so much more helpful in the work of helping people mature and experience Christ than his mega church every did.
JMC - actually identifies a major problem in modern worship and I don’t think he even realizes it. He talks about being underwhelmed in worship but notice how he describes worship. It’s always in relation to a sermon series. If that’s worship is defined by the sermon series or the set list then yea it will be underwhelming after awhile. The loss of the liturgy in so many places creates this. I have found the liturgy to be this incredible tool to draw the focus off of me and on to Christ. And Christ is never underwhelming.
Yes, critical insight. It's a rich interview but found the reduction of worship to sermon is significant, especially with much work around the formative power of the practice of worship.
I did not hear that reduction. I heard him refer to the Sunday worship service that limits fellowship (my paraphrase here) to two parts: sermon and singing.
Imagine being two former pastors and talking about a service of worship primarily through the lens of what we get out of it. Whom are we worshiping?
There is nothing magical about liturgy. If there was, Catholicism and other main line denominations wouldn’t have nose dived the past 40 years. No doubt liturgy can be helpful for those that have a history with it and crave it, but The issue is a lack of fellowship and discipleship.
@griddlefiddle I think the OP is contrasting modern worship services with the ancient liturgy. Which one is more focused on individual emotions and entertainment? What seems more reverent and sacred? What is at the center of the church building? What truly worships God is what removes the attention on the self. Forgive me if I misunderstood your point.
Long story short... THIS was my "church" today and I can't THANK YALL enough!!! Holy Spirit met me here and spoke right into my wilderness of the last 4 years! SO GRATEFUL!!!
I’m going to have to re-watch this multiple times
Small is beautiful. The Kingdom of God grows smaller and smaller as we lean into Jesus and his way… the deepest levels of growth happen in this space. Amen JMC. Jesus had 70, invested in 12, and was most deeply invested in the three.
What a gift these guys are to the church. As one of the older retired pastors I so appreciate the wisdom.
Gosh I will return to this conversation again and again. It resonated with me so deeply!
So appreciating what JMC is bringing to the table, specifically, the courage to talk about the non-conventional, out of the box, very abiding creativity of relationship with Jesus and others who desire to follow Him. His perspective as a pastor who internally struggled with the role brings a needed human candidness to the role in a setting where there is much harm being done by both shepherds and sheep who are missing the heart of the matter - Church is the Body of Christ, not a business. Thank you, JMC, for breaking out of the pressure to perform and speaking the truth over worrying about image. May we all have the courage for this He gives if we are willing.
Such complex thoughts said so well and simply
Carey & JMC....this is just fantastic. I could listen to you two in this long form discussion endlessly. Please stay connected - you'll never run out of material. Love you both - you both are incredible gifts to all of us walking this life. The deeper we grow in Christ, the more complicated and beautiful these discussions become.
“Learning to value goodness versus perfection”
-JMC
That subtle bomb about the civil war between a dad’s career and how work will almost assuredly crank up at about the same time kids need more from dad is fascinating. I’ve never heard that before, but now that I’m thinking about it I see it all the time. Super helpful. Thanks for the interview, both of you!
Thanks for watching
One of the best conversations I've heard on the issues facing the modern American evangelical. Thank you so much for doing this. I could relate to almost everything John Mark Comer talked about.
I appreciate John Mark’s thoughts. He is very articulate and transparent. I wonder, though, if the problem is how we define “spiritual maturity?” What if stage 4 is where we transition from focusing on ourselves to focusing on others (helping people far from God discover Jesus, helping people who are new to faith grow in their faith, etc)? After following Jesus for many years, I don’t need another sermon. I need to live it out and give it away to others. In my personal experience, when I’ve made it less about “me” and more about others, my passion and desire to follow Jesus has increased exponentially. It doesn’t mean I don’t continue to grow personally and deal with my “shadows,” but I find it so much more compelling to take what God is doing in my life (even in my brokenness) and give it away to others.
Thanks for sharing that Robert
OMG. I’ve been talking about these things for decades cross referencing studies and thinking I was all alone! Thank you for this amazing conversation Carey and John
You're so welcome!
I know right?! We're not alone 🥹🙏🙏🙏
Thank you JMC and Carey for reading my journal out loud but making it even more articulate 😂 Wow. Love this nuanced, grace-filled, honest "spiritually real" convo so much, and can resonate a lot as someone who used to be in church leadership and had to wrestle with the "nakedness" afterwards also. I'm similarly also still deep in the "inner journey" / "the journey outward" where thankfully God has been radically transforming me and my motivational structure by revealing the shadows I never would've discovered if I hadn't stepped into the "windy road wilderness" - but this conversation really encourages me that I'm not alone, and that what I've been going through and thinking about (in terms of "there has to be more that God has for us!) is healthy/normal even if it might not be understood by those who haven't experienced it (yet).
Lord, continue working in and transforming me... I want to be a vessel of your pure love. 🥹
Carey had a season of his podcast where I missed a few episodes when it was approaching the business side. But all in all, I think he is the best interviewer there is out there. And I have found a new hero, this guy John Mark is literally a carbon copy of myself hahahahahah! Thanks@@withthetrans
@@CareyNieuwhof As always, you're superseedig any expectations! I really wish there could be a conversation about your experience when you're here in Australia. I could get our team to set it up for our podcast. There would be a great contribution for the church planters we serve. We could talk about this very subject.
Dude this is freaking amazing!!! Wow, this was able to put so much language into what I've been walking through. Thank you for this guys!!!!!!!!
I have been waiting with bated breath from the moment I heard you mention bringing John Mark back on the show. I knew it would be excellent and it did not disappoint. YOU have truly been a tremendous blessing to my life Carey - thank you for exposing me to so many wonderful voices in the Christian leadership space. God bless you! 🙏🏾
When JMC says he believes the future of church (Sunday morning context) is around "tables" I got a quick thought of AA meetings "around these tables" and "in these rooms" and felt so at peace.
The rewards of unrushed convo...tuning in from Singapore.
One of the best podcasts episodes I’ve listened to. Thank you. 👏 I have relistened to it because it feels like God was/is speaking to me right where I am in my walk with him but also in ministry as I look to the next chapter. Thank you Carey.
These conversations don't so much restore hope, but give hope eternal substance
wow, thank you
I have heard all the interest around JMC, have his first book at home but haven’t read it yet. I can see why he is a populist name. His ideas resonate with all the noise, distraction and disillusionment each of us wade through daily. Clearly a very bright guy but also a clear communicator who has radical authenticity.
Very refreshing to find this level of authenticity…
I got ostracised bc I wanted more than ankle or knee deep faith; seems it wasn’t just me being a bad person lol
Great talk with John Mark Comer! Been serving the Lord for over 30 yrs & now desire to 'transition' into Stages 4-6 with God's wisdom & guidance, as well as help others grow spiritually too!
I am Catholic and I have listened to your sermons and followed you because you speak so much truth. Your theology closely aligns to Catholicism. I invite you, John Mark, to attend a Catholic mass. If you open your mind and listen to the prayers with each liturgical action, I guarantee you will not be bored and if you pray to understand what is happening, you might be moved. Blessings to you and your family, John Mark
God bless you.
But no thank you.
I am in a spirit filled church we don’t sit on our own hands.
Just some balance.
@@troyboldon1 Understood :) I apologize if my comment came across as judgmental. That was not even close to my intent. It is such a blessing to have a spirit filled church! ❤️Peace.
Tangible, content-rich conversation about pastoral burnout and about disciples progressing!
I’ve been waiting for this one!!!
I love listening to John Mark
This hits hard, just a few min in. God Bless
Thanks for your podcasts Carey, they’re are breath of fresh air bro with so much honesty with the things you discuss. It takes lots of courage to discuss the things you do bro and not sweep things under the carpet. Amazing deep stuff bro 👍
Thanks for listening
Loved this!
Thanks for this, Carey. I really enjoyed this conversation. I haven't listened to your other interviews but you did so well by asking thoughtful questions and truly listening. Too many podcast hosts talk over their guests and insert their own thoughts and ideas. Your thoughts and questions added to the conversation, they didn't detract. Well done.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great honesty and wisdom- thank you
Glad you enjoyed it
I just sent this to my church leaders and am hoping to unpack my thoughts on this concept. Thank you so much for putting words to my feelings.
I’ll be watching this monthly for the rest of 2024! So many gems and insightful points.
I’m so grateful for all of the reading and research and experience and self reflection that JMC brings. Everything he said was so thought provoking and helpful. He has been a gift to my spiritual walk and is most certainly a gift to the church.
I love the honesty of this conversation. Thank you gentlemen.
Glad you enjoyed it
Amazing conversation.
Oh my. One of your best interviews Carey! Appreciate both you men immensely.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Wise words!!
So good. Praise God, man
Fantastic interview! Thankyou. John Mark Comer you are voice to the body of Christ in this season. I’ve only just started listening to your podcasts and reading your books. Hoping you continue to teach and write (don’t stop 😢) your work is encouraging many believers who question where they fit in the body of Christ in this current climate. Thank you for your prophetic voice of wisdom.
Thank you for watching Lydia
Really enjoyed this conversation, thanks for sharing!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Podcasting creates a different relationship with time and information for individuals, but now also churches
I really appreciate this conversation. I’ve felt disconnected from the church I joined. I am in a small group there too. But I go to BSF - Bible Study Fellowship every week and I feel much more connected there. We have a lecture which is like a sermon over what we studied that week, then we have our small discussion group, who we also have fellowship meetings with. That model feels more aligned for me right now. And lately my husband has been going to a silent worship service at a house church and so I’ve been joining him there. It’s nice bc it’s an hour of stillness to commune with God.
My friend bought that book on audible. He lets me use his account
.And I kept thinking this book is so good but I went through it so fast. I gotta go listen to It again.
I'm not even all the way through, and this is so, so good.
Thank you, I relate to the stage of what now.
Praying we all find the goodness of God in our actual life
Wow! What an incredible interview this was!
Beautiful
I remember once hearing Matt Chandler talk about the need for pastors who stay… He spoke of the trend of young celebrity pastors growing a church, gaining an audience, getting a book deal, then leaving the church to go into itinerant speaking tours where they would speak on podcasts and to megachurches and at mega-Xian-conferences and sell their Christian books to Christians (who wouldn’t exist without the church)-all the while speaking and writing about how “the institutional church” basically has it all wrong and it’s really all about this or that form of spirituality or evangelism or discipleship or “community,” whatever it is they’re promoting and writing about…
Feed my sheep.
This seems to be a pattern with John Mark Comer and Francis Chan where they were big in megachurches but the "success" itself gives them the space to come to this position that is opposite of how they did church. Could they have come to this place without going through what they went through? It seems like their past success gives them a space to critique the past methods. That is sort of what John Mark Comer mentions when he says now my career and finances aren't tied to "how" I do things, like being in ministry is a matter of performance. So my question is, can the ordinary pastor really implement this without first the success that gives them a comfortable landing when they get out of the megachurch style of doing church? I think many feel too stuck, too afraid, motivated by finances and the fear of never being able to do church how they really know it should be because of all the time and effort they've already put into things. The time is lost to cultivate something deeper in a smaller setting. But these men who have had "success" have an easy transition, riding the wave of past success. It just seems to be a pattern and I'm not sure how to think about it.
Interesting point, thanks for sharing this Alex.
Alex, I've thought about this a lot. I followed Hybels for many years, and before "the fall" he started to talk openly about running at a slower pace, about being in circles of loss being better than riding high, about deep work in the counselor's office, about time off and not using people to achieve your goals... But like you say, he said this AFTER he has achieved the privilege of margin, which was won by the very things he now criticized.
The message for me was, "do great things for Jesus like I did, but don't do it like I did." Well, if I do it slow, and small, and deep, it won't be "great" - always defined as bigger numbers. My reaction is always, "easy for you to say... now". Name a person who has always had this message who didn't first build their brand and platform.
@@jrteason thanks that's really interesting to hear
IMHO success is not the only "wall" one has to go through to get to a deeper life...
Such a meaningful conversation. I loved the book too. I thought if I just learned more I transform faster. Not. Love hearing about everyones brokeness and journey. Thanks guys.
"open deeper part of ourselves to grace" Thank you Jesus
Awesome interview. Really enjoyed it. Thank you for sharing it
Wonderful! I am excited to find the goodness of God in the land of the living! You've contributed to my hope❤❤
Yes been hanging out for this one. We are studying Practising the day in our Bible study group and it is fantastic! Carey this was a great interview . Thank you!
Wonderful!
Thank you for this important conversation. One of your best. Thank you Carey for the well thought out questions and then stepping back to listen and actually allowing your guest to be heard.
JMC is a 'breath of fresh air' in this season.
Thanks for watching
…. Wow… This conversation is incredible! Thank you so much for this!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Amen. Joy and the goodness of God in actual life 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻✝️🙌🏻✝️🙌🏻✝️🙌🏻
I think John Mark is bringing up some interesting ideas. I am a pastor of a small church. His comment pastors want to pastor, bigger, churches, and people want to attend smaller churches. I think maybe a result of his own life. One of the best churches I went to had several thousand people on Sundays but we sat with those from our small group so we simultaneously had a small congregation with the benefits of large church worship. I do wonder if his comment is self reflective. In other words when I’m in charge. I want a big church. When I’m no longer in charge I want a small church.
I have noticed that there are speakers that are genuinely gifted and also genuinely spiritual. I can tell because I immediately want to start taking notes. I don’t just mean facts or clever sayings, but genuine insights that seem empowered by the Holy Spirit.
I think those of us who speak for a living wish we were that quality of speaker.
I am also helped by self awareness tools for spiritual formation. Have learned a lot from The Critical Journey.
Cary, thanks for this next-level episode ! This is one I saved to listen to again, so much great content from JMC. AND . . . any guy who likes Steinbeck and has a dog named Jin Urso (she was the main character in Star Wars Rogue One :-). Jumps immediately to my 'very cool' list - thanks John Mark, I want to check out more of your writing! - Rob from Creekside Waterloo Ont.
I am in a small church of 30 max including the preacher, wife, 4 kids, and grandmother with occasional visitor's. I like the small group. It feels like family. We do meet on Sunday morning and Wednesday evening. Our oldest is 92 and youngest is 4 years old. I also observe Sabbath from Friday night and end on Saturday night meeting with my daughters. I had kept Sabbath myself for years and really enjoyed Comer's teaching on Sabbath. It enriched my plans on celebrating it. I have always listened to various people and studies to gain more teaching other than just my church.
Thank you both for this beautiful conversation
Thanks for listening
The American Pete Greig. The desire for depth and greater authenticity is at the heart of my walk with God and this podcast was brilliant.
The discussion at moment 18 is worth the price of admission; having a nomenclature to discuss this with our people is very helpful.
I finally have words for so much of I’ve been going through, questioned and wondered. Thank you!
So glad!
Initially, I was quite skeptical about this conversation since I often hear and see pastors diverging into secular psychology.
However, the more I listened, the more value I found in this discussion.
It’s likely because I’ve always wondered if there’s anything beyond what the church currently offers.
I see so many people struggling within the church because they hit a wall where information and inspiration are no longer sufficient.
Instead, we face real-life issues that aren’t being addressed from within ourselves and critical issues that we deal with on a daily basis, which are not explained from a pulpit and are certainly not being addressed in these discipleship conversations.
I really hope that we can have more of these conversations because I believe they are incredibly needed.
Very valuable. Thank you for this interview.
The church service is for gathering, fellowship, worship, teaching, and encouraging each other. Discipleship, deeper spiritual training, accountability, etc needs to happen outside of the broader gathering. As more mature Christian’s, it’s our responsibility to make that stuff happen vs being frustrated if a church isn’t doing that work for us.
“Life will serve you up the wall.”
Dang. Truth. Now.
I Sure relate to this
Yah!
I needed this today...much appreciated
Glad it was helpful!
THANK YOU so much for this interview!!! Learned a lot and very centering!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I would love to hear John Mark in conversation with Brian Zahnd. I feel like BZ is a couple decades down the road from John but both share very similar trajectories and sensibilities toward rediscovering deeper faith through Christian history and formation and are both very critical of cultural evangelical churchianity that they both have proximity to. Both of them represent a hope for me in a new movement away from cultural fluff faith and toward a more raw honest and time tested faith that we so desperately need today
I’ll be watching this again!
Hope it's helpful!
Thanks for such an insightful conversation on dealing with mixed motives and learning to value goodness rather than perfection. Your obsession with podcasting is greatly appreciated!
Thanks for the encouragement Karl
So many wonderful things worth commenting on - I found this so relatable, challenging and encouraging. But since it came right at the end, the thing that sticks out to me is… JMC is a Star Wars fan?!?! Honoured to have Jyn Erso grace the podcast with her presence 😄
Than you for the life giving convo ❤
Thank you for watching!
fuckin hell crying through this video and just so grateful for this interview
Wow so much clarity , helping me to map out where I'm at with my spiritual life.
Hope this was helpful to you
DABDA + M - love it
This was an awesome conversation! I need the list of books referenced! Good stuff.
I have no idea who John Mark Comer is. My friend forwarded this to me.
My family and I went through a season where we "followed" the kids to Hillsong, long story short, so when I saw a man with the tattoos, the black t shirt, etc, I thought, "OK.."
Mea culpa 🙂
But, as someone who has no idea who JMC is, or was, I was fascinated with your conversation with him.
Partly because I had no "Is/n't this the man.." preconceptions, and then, well, it was just a down to earth, well-constructed, thoughtful conversation.
Some things that have crossed my mind over the years, some perspectives on things that made me.. look at my own spiritual life in the mirror. It was a blessing.
So, whoever you are, and whoever he is... I praise God (and thank my good friend) that this was sent my way.
Kind regards from Australia.
Things that matter most don’t get paid for 💙👊🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻✝️🙌🏻
35:00 - "Absolutely not in control..." so true! Herein lies the testing of our faith.
Really found this interesting. So much transition in discipleship. It feels like it's heading in a good direction.
Glad you enjoyed it
A renewed mind understands Jesus wants to work through us not for us
very interested in the reference to the evangelical church in late 1970s and discipleship ( I'm in UK not US so not exactly the same picture - but close enough ) I was in my late 20s then and can see now how we could have been trained better - indeed lots of 'try harder' stuff accomplished nothing for me. With the coming of 'new monasticism' and the growing theme of rewilding the church etc. I feel I finally have found who I am supposed to be in the Christian community. Am now retired and have *time* to be still and contemplate etc. how I'd cope if still working for a living ?? Bless you both for this conversation.
Oh this makes sense that im in stage 4 😂 and its very painful!
Really loved rhis convo, thabk you, very insightful
Glad it was helpful!
Information will not transform you it’s Holy Spirit with the truth and our commitment to those that transforms us. And filling our heads with a bunch of info hyped up on it only to immediately fill our heads with more information does little to nothing. So setting our focus on His presence, eating of him and offering ourselves to others is what brings forth transformation and blessing to those around us! Our Church models have gotten so far away from slowly absorbing and being intimate with God and his love and truth that people are deceived into thinking that when they hear something that me time they know it and live by it. Which is ridiculous. We need that Spirit led truth & love encounter
Oh and that comment on Willard 🙏🏾🙏🏾.
How grateful I’m for this talk!
Whom is he mentioning about those circles around me?
Is there an author about this shadow thing?
Thanks a lot. Greetings from Germany 🇩🇪
Google: Dunbar's Number
Name without shame motives are mixed - yes
I love JMC. However, he has to realize the irony of his opening statements on how he has relished the freedom in church away from beging dependent on Book sales and salary. If not for his efforts in those other areas he would not be afforded his current opportunity. Still love him, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with the practical benefits of earthly ministry. Paul didn't shy away from those truths either.
Other than that piece of irony, JMC is the man.
Finally all I've written ultimately comes down to the fact that I can read scripture and listen to christian messages dedicatedly over years but still not have a true conversion experience or be missing something so that faith true faith is not yet the result within me. and the last perhaps for some of us this journey may go on for 15 to 20 years, all the while moving forward we are still on the journey trying to get an access true faith in Christ, true conversion. I myself do not have true conversion yet. That's the Bible is a collection of stories which appears to point to a depiction of God. However this God and Jesus that churches and the Bible speaks about, I still as of yet recognize that I do not have to faith or belief in.
So GOOD! Also, 25:49: that is one FANCY sip of beverage there JMC (it's ok, he didn't bash the table for the mic 😆)
👏🏼
As well as an emphasis on smaller groups I think it’s very helpful for people who don’t feel comfortable diving into a small group right away, to have larger meetings that emphasize getting to know and meet people in a less” in your face” situation . The emphasis is on fellowship and prayer, not on teaching. It’s a good place for testimonies as well. In this larger setting that’s not so intimidating, comfortability and friendships can begin to form and smaller life groups can be birthed from there. Also there’s a sense of “tribe” as JC mentioned that is formed as you get to know more people that you see at church but don’t know a thing about them. But it has to be emphasized that the purpose is to get to know new people each time the church has these brunches, or breakfasts or teas etc. I’ve seen this work. I’m in a life group right now, where most of the men met at a men’s retreat! I’ve seen it happen in a women’s monthly dinner where lasting connections were made and needs were met for newer members who felt seen. They then got into smaller studies and life groups. Great conversation! I agree that leaders have to open up to thinking of how to do things better. Gotta be more vulnerable and let Holy Spirit lead! Thanks guys!!! Love the transparency!
He named his dog after a Star Wars character. Respect.