Theistic Reasoning: Fallacies and Faith by Matt Dillahunty at Reason in the Rock 2013
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- Matt Dillahunty was raised a Baptist and studied to become a Baptist minister. His studies led him to reject Christianity and eventually all religion. Matt hosts the Austin-based webcast and cable-access television show The Atheist Experience and the live internet radio show Non-Prophets Radio. He is also the founder of the counter-apologists encyclopedia Iron Chariots. He served as president of the Atheist Community of Austin until this May (2013).
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Saddest thing is about that 12 year old girl is that taking her own life because she missed her dad and most theists will believe that she went to hell because of it.
VideoAudioDisco09 Preface: I'm an Atheist.
The Bible does indeed reference suicide a number of times... Yeah, it's a sin.
christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/a/Bible-Suicide.htm
In all honesty, I thought Matt was going to say that THAT was what the mother said.
Thank god (so to speak) she didn't.
John Digsby
Damn John pretty callous words from a religious person, in regards to the 12 year old girl that killed herself because she was mislead about a fantasy of heaven.
john0805 yep, demonstrates just how perverted Christians view of love is.
I could name half a dozen experiences and differences in opinion that helped me untangle myself from theism, but I don't think I could put my finger on one specific reason. For me, 'becoming' an atheist was more of a realization that I already was one.
RyujinZero Thank you so much..you described my experience exactly how i wanted it put...I’ve always known i was one until i finally came to the realization ..
My experience exactly. I was standing in my childhood room, and suddenly I realised that I did not believe in god. Like, holy shit, whut, I am an atheist? This word applies to ME?
Looking back, the realisation came on the wings of thousands of individual steps: a liberal understanding of religion in my family, love of mythologies around the world, unorthodox approach to god, scientific literacy, living with international students, working in academia, meddling with deism and a non-benevolent god model, surviving cancer, political concern... But most importantly, there was that moment in my old room where I could not say "I believe in god" anymore.
@John Digsby Revelation, like Hume says, is necessarily first-person. To anyone else, it's heresay.
@John Digsby so god failed to give revelation.. by your own standard this guys not even the one to blame. God is to blame if it existed. Not very bright are ya bud?
This guy is a brilliant speaker. Wish I could do it. Don't stop! This world needs you and more like you.
+R369B He seems to be able to put into words what I think but can't put together so well
+Massive Annie Yup. I think Matt's biggest strength is that he is able to explain some rather complex things in ways that nearly anyone can understand. This a) shows that he understands the topics fairly well, and b) isn't trying to talk over your head to try to act as some ultimate authority (I've seen that often from people trying to bullshit you).
I've been watching Matt Dillahunty from his early years. He has improved quite a bit with his communication skills.
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Yes the more he speaks, the more I believe in God!
"Screw you. If I'm gay, I'm gay." I love that.
It's ok to be gay if you're gay, but it's not ok to be gay if you're straight. That would be pretty gay.
@@viktorthevictor6240 lol
As an Atheist for over 45 years; it's our time to spread the word of rational, evidence based science and reasoning over superstition and myths based on 1500 year old ignorance. Thankfully we now have sites such as youtube and cable TV channels to help debunk insane, non proven religious claims which slowly eats away and our rational thought processes and common sense.
57 years for me. I've been arguing with theists since I was 9. Last weekend, my family went out to celebrate my son's PhD commencement; at the restaurant, I asked my daughter whether she believed in god. She said yes. I asked why! She's discovering that I know a whole lot about religion! What really perplexes me is that she's a molecular biologist ...WTF! I made a few statements that should get her her thinking about this more, and will continue to challenge her.
Fortunately, my son knows better. He's a computer engineer, specializing in neuroscience. He's also at least the 3rd generation of secular men in my family. Unfortunately, he doesn't engage theists.
@@SIMKINETICS people could believe what ever they want. Just like you do
@@earthsurgery1237it's whether you care if your beliefs conform with reality, miracles, talking snakes, donkeys and men flying winged horses to the moon....?, doesn't!
Though Matt never became a preacher, he became a preacher after all. Great talk, Matt.
Atheists pay him the big bucks to preach their doctrine.
I disagree with Matt on one point - I was not "reasoned" into being a Christian. Starting with my infant baptism, I was indoctrinated before I had the ability to reason. It never even occurred to me to question any of this until my late teens. The fact is that one can be reasoned out of positions that they were never reasoned into. I am living proof of that.
+Pat Doyle I can understand how you'd say you weren't reasoned into believing - nobody presented you with a syllogism when you were a child. But in the broader sense of "reason", you were convinced at an early age by the Argument from Authority - your parents presented the case, and you believed them because they were your parents. That's technically a process of reason. Of course you had no choice in the matter - it would never occur to a 2-year-old to question authority, that's why kids believe in Santa Claus. But every time an adult mentioned God or Jesus around you as if that entity existed, they were implicitly presenting evidence to you, and that evidence is why you (and I, too) believed.
Matthew Scott
Argument from authority is a reasoning fallacy - it is not proper reason, so no - that would not count as being "reasoned" into it. Not all human thought processes qualify as reason.
rea·son·ing
ˈrēz(ə)niNG/
noun
noun: reasoning; plural noun: reasonings
the action of thinking about something in a logical, sensible way.
Because mom and dad said so is not thinking about something logically. This is part of why it is so easy to indoctrinate children. They have not yet developed much of any logical reasoning skills. Sadly, some people never do.
(BTW, that last sentence is NOT intended to apply to you)
+Pat Doyle I absolutely agree - of course it's fallacious! Your point, if I understand you, is that "convinced of" and "reasoned into" are not the same thing, and I do technically agree. However, I think Matt used "reasoned" more colloquially, to mean "convinced", i.e. your parents used fallacious arguments to "reason you into" Christianity. This is not to say you were presented with SOUND evidence - there isn't any.
If we go with the stricter definition of "reason," nobody could ever be "reasoned" into believing, whether they were a child or not, since there is no sound evidence for God's existence.
All this is semantic - not trying to be argumentative. I'll let it go now :)
Matthew Scott
I think we agree on that though, but I don't think that Matt meant anything different. Because if Matt meant reason to mean "any process by which a person might be convinced of something", the statement becomes meaningless, or worse yet, factually wrong. Because that would mean that no person who formed a belief could ever change it for any reason, because nothing would ever convince them to change the belief. He was clearly meaning that logic and reason won't change the mind of someone who was not convinced to believe with that method of thinking.
+Pat Doyle It's possible that your were never convinced to begin with but you just never knew of any other behavior to mimic than that of the people around you. When I was a kid, sure I had a concept of God that priests, nuns and other people talk about, but I don't think I was ever convinced because God never revealed himself to me. I went through all the rituals and behaviors just like everyone else did because it seemed normal at the time. But, I was never much for taking other people at their word but it wasn't until I was in my early 30's that I even realized that non-belief was even an option. I never reasoned my way to atheism, it's just the realization that I don't have any good reason TO believe.
I was never religious, there was no religion in my home or any of my families homes, none of my friends were religious or just didn't bring it up. The only time I had to make a chose of what religion I followed was when I enlisted into the military. And I did not like having to say that I was something that I was not. But no one ever talked about religion my entire tour. Under god was not in the pledge or on the money when I was growing up. I really could not see the reason to believe in a god to be able to live and honest life or to have a god to understand what good morals where. I personally think that the world would be much better off without religion.
+Terry Crevison just curious, what'd you pick when you enlisted?
noone shall ever know...
I thought there was a “non religious” option or at least “other” ?
Matt was conscious of being over his time limit, but I wasn't. I could listen to him for much, much longer. He is one of the most insightful and level headed people I know, and he thinks so well on his feet he just amazes me. I would engage more people in conversation about religion if I could think as quickly and accutely as he does.
“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”--Seneca, (Roman philosopher, mid-1st century AD)
“Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines.”--Bertrand Russell
All religions bear traces of the fact that they arose during the intellectual immaturity of the human race before it had learned the obligation to speak the truth. Not one of them makes it the duty of its God to be truthful and understandable in his communications.
People don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed.--Friedrich Nietzsche
"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us and our predecessors."--Pope Leo X Giovanni di Lorenzo de' Medici. Pope (1513-1521)
"Religion may be defined as a cultural, psycho-philisophical vehicle of spiritual and intellectual enslavement which has at its end: (1) The cultural and racial superiority of those who created it. (2) The paralysis of analysis by those who believe in it. (That means don't think, don't question, just accept the beliefs and doctrines on blind faith). (3) The perpetual empowerment of the agenda intended by it. The intended agenda is control over its believers". -Dr. Ray Hagins: (Professional Psychologist)
The teachings of Jesus certainly go against "reason". "Take no thought for your life". The reasoning human being cannot fathom such a statement because it is against our nature to take no thought for our lives. Jesus never confronted anyone that we might consider "a sinner" and point a finger at them to shame them. He only ever said "follow me". He understood humanity better than we understand ourselves. He only became angry at the religious prigs of his day that considered themselves morally superior and were ripping off the poor. Sin is "apartness" from God. Jesus intention was to reconcile man to God, not to kill people or shame people. Christianity is unique as a religion because it is not about man reaching up to God through obeying laws or reaching up to some lofty height where we might become gods orrselves. Christianity is about God reaching down to man.
Troy Mcroberts What is the reason that human beings can't fathom the statements of madmen and unqualified teachers? The teachings of all religions and of nonreligious people sometimes seem to or do go against "reason" as well. So how do we parse between them? Religion seems to rely on our instinctual lust for immortality or a lust for blind and prideful certainty. Yet, why would "take no thought for your life" be unreasonable? Sometimes and in some contexts that would be a perfectly fine rule to follow. Something more unreasonable would be "I say parables so that they (the lay-followers) don't understand, so that they therefore fulfill the prophesy of Isaiah about people not understanding, but when people don't understand the logos, it is like Satan is taking a seed away, that is why I explain the parables to you (the close disciples)." I paraphrased a bit, but animal sacrifice is and was always demonic, as are all religions and false things. This religion is unique, but so is this other.
"420 blaze it"
- Pope Hilarius
Mrgruffy44 Theory has no place in reality. Can you get beyond the two dimensional arguments to somehow make any sense?
***** Get back to me when you are capable of writing a complete sentence that makes any sense.
Religion is toxic. Knowledge is power.
I never believed in mainstream religion but did think there was a force of somekind, an intelligence or some kind. What pushed me off the fence was TH-cam and discovering the amazing atheist, the atheist experience and AaronRa. My three favs.
I'm a UK conservative atheist. We have loads of them in our Parliament. I'm so proud of our country.
Christians: We need to bring God and prayer back into school!
**School wants to teach about the Quran**
Christians: RAAAAAAAAR!!!! Separation of church and state! You have no right to force your religion on my kids!! RAAAAAAAAAR!!!!!!
@Jairo Russell pretending to commit a felony is...fun for you?
I was raised Southern Baptist, but never really believed in it. I tried to believe because that was what was expected of me by my family, I wanted them to love and accept me. The biggest reason why I never really believed, was that because even as a child, the bible didn't make much sense to me. The stories, the rules, the actions of God and Jesus, I just couldn't believe that most of it was true or even close to being true. So I suppose the biggest thing that made me not believe was reading the Bible itself.
I got saved at the age of 9(Southern Baptist age of accountability) because I was supposed to get saved. I marginally believed but from reading the Bible at age 12 nothing seemed like the reality I knew so I rejected it all.
Nice going ; I'm glad you have joined us.
Have you heard AronRa talking to his son, after granny had been filling the wee man's head with Jesus?? The kid looks both ways, then whispers to his father, "Dad, how did god/Jesus actually DO all the miracles...?!". Best father/son moment ever - AronRa looks both ways (perfect psychology, act as a co-conspirator ; kids LOVE that, and I ought to know, having been one once upon a time, and there's more, but I'm not the kid in question) and leans over to his son, and whispers, "He DIDN'T!". He says that he could see the relief wash over the boy as the universe suddenly made sense again.
Religion isn't just a poison, but a source of utter EEEEVIL!!, to channel Frank "2nd-hand car salesman on LSD and cocaine" Turek, when the filthy rat asked Christopher Hitchens where EEEEEVIL!! came from. No beat, no pause - "RELIGION!!". QED.
Thanks for your story, SJ.
Matt and The Atheist Experience are a big part of what made me realize I'm a full-blown atheist. 🤷
As a former Baptist fundy I can honestly say Matt would've made a fine preacher. There are certain parts of this video and others I've seen where his delivery starts that tell tale crescendo. Maybe it's just me, but even Matt has said he would've been a top notch preacher .
He is well trained in speech giving and so are preachers.
Will Akers None of the preachers I've known, including several family members have ever had any formal training in "speech giving". Can't speak for Matt, just my observation.
Doing something once or more a week every single week will make you pretty good at it.
Will Akers If that's what you mean by "well trained in speech giving" then sure, I agree.
For me the reason occurred when I decided to change my question from: "why are my prayers NEVER answered"?..to: "Why am I even doing this? When I searched for why, my answers always pointed to that someone else was telling me to...in every case it was something the bible said or something someone else wanted me to do...NONE of it was ever anything I wanted or chose to do or even want...EUREKA!! I had figured out on my own that it was ALL stuff OTHERS wanted and I was trapped as a victim of clever steering by others. After that it was easy for me to see how false and man made up it ALL was and is...I had been cleverly conned by sales tactics.
Theistic reasoning...there are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on all the beaches of the world....but there's only one star with life on it, just so that the hebrew war god could pull off a plan to rescue a minority of earth humans from the consequences of his own hatred.
well said for a complete moron. Stop typing while you're on drugs, we live on a planet not a star. Nothing in the Bible says a "minority" will be rescued, but arguing an ignorant viewpoint parroted from another idiot is probably the best you can do, so since I am divine, you are forgiven.
Vernon Smithjr Ok, I should have used the word "around it", big deal. The Bible is so varied and open to interpretation, it doesn't say really anything itself, the reader chooses what the Bible says. The church has taught people what the Bible says for 1500 years and according to the church, only a minority will be saved.
You are divine? You are deluded and full of shit.
joejoejoe532 oh look , another dipshit who doesn't understand simple sentences. The 144, 000 sealed are only people who have the mark of God during Armageddon, not the only ones saved and going to heaven. The concept here is that those people will be protected during the battle of evil and good as examples, not as the only ones going to heaven. You guys really shouldn't debate this, you're too fucking stupid.
joejoejoe532 non sequitur dumbass. try actually sticking to the subject instead of deflecting to a non issue. You can't prove what is moral, haven't you learned anything by now, you're in the eighth grade for Gods sake. "Potential to suffer eternal damnation". you have no idea what you're talking about, give it up.
joejoejoe532 If you're in the eighth grade, then junior must have failed potty-training. Again.
Matt's show, Atheist Experience, changed my mind.
+Elr James Only because your mind was open enough to new ideas and that you had the intellectual integrity to change your beliefs.
fred smith Not really 'only', I'm not sure my actual 'beliefs' are so firm they can't change, and 'intellectual integrity' is too dignified a label to be properly ascribed to my thoughts.
+Elr James He was so straightforward that I didn't like him when I was a believer, even after a year being an atheist I didn't like him, I preferred Darkmatter2525, AronRa and Seth Andrews' approaches to the topic; it was until recent (like 7 months) that I decided to watch the best moments of his show and ended up watching his conferences... So, here I am now.
manamaster6 Yeah, I did mention, however, that it was Matt's show, rather than the man himself, which changed my mind. Thanks for the contribution.
+Elr James Q: Why can't Matt Dillahunty solve exponential equations?
A: Because he doesn't believe in higher powers.
Matt, I lost my faith due to conservapedia. Sounds crazy right? These guys are so whacko that I had to distance myself of some claims. Their absurd homophobia and YEC were out of the loop, not part of what I considered christianity.
Eventually, once you start looking critically at one part of religion, it collapses like a house of leaves. Nothing stands the test of reason. If anything made me lose my faith, it was conservapedia. Well done Andy Schlafly, really appreciate it.
ahouyearno house of leaves?
@@Afanas-zt2ml Yeah. Even harder to stack, and more fragile than a house of cards. Try it :)
ahouyearno
Well done you!
@John Digsby there is going to be a moment right as you die when you realize that there is no afterlife and you wasted your entire life. I'm sorry you can't be yourself.
That's fine, you can ruin your life if you want. But it's like drug use. You want to do it, fine! but don't try to force us to use it, to ruin our lives too just because you don't want to be fucked up by yourself.
Grow up and be miserable by yourself, stop trying to drag everyone down with you. Give away yourself to God, no one cares.
Always enjoy Matt's talks. He is fantastic with reason and logic. One thing I think is usually left out is humor. Religious beliefs are ripe for humor. I'd love to see more George Carlin like approaches inserted in debates. Make the audience laugh at the absurdities right from the start.
+RhondaH: I disagree. I think there is room for mockery, but if the majority need a god to comfort their fears of loneliness and death, they are not the same as those who use a god to manipulate others. We need to use the neutrality of reason and be compassionate to those who come out. Would they want to come out if they think they might be humiliated. One interviewed ex-Scientologist said he felt so embarrassed when he came out because the alien stuff was so transparently absurd, but he needed to step out of it before he saw it. We need to save face for these people, not lose it.
tobo86 Mocking the religious is far different than mocking religion itself. You have your views and I have mine. We most certainly will not agree on all points.
+RhondaH: by mocking religious belief, you mock the religious believer by implication. How can you not?
tobo86 So you have no idea of the difference. LOL
"The slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts." ~George Orwell
For those of you who have a difficult time dealing with Christians who want to argue over the validity of Christianity, and will always use Jesus as their "ace in the hole", I have a tool for you. Do not argue the existence of Jesus, because you cannot prove that he didn't exist. Instead just say, "even if Jesus was real, that does not excuse the lies of the writers who fictionalized his life to fulfill their mythological messiah prophecy. This, you CAN prove and they will not be able to deny when the facts are shown. The Gospels can be proved to be fictional stories. All of them. This will remove the foundation of their belief. Then you can discuss their faith on equal terms.
When I'm debating Christians about Jesus I use Reza Azlan's book Zealot to point out the huge differences in the historic Jesus and the Christ of faith. I don't necessarily tell them about Zealot, but the information in it is useful.
Tim Hallas I don't know if I believe it all but you can watch Reza Aslan's videos on it and get almost everything that's in the book.It's entertaining and it's about the historic Jesus.
DrJames Powers I can believe there is a young man called Peter Parker who lives in New York and is an aspiring journalist. My belief stops when someone claims that he shoots webs from his wrists and can climb vertical surfaces.
The first claims are routine. The second claims are not and require a much higher standard of evidence. Just like the stories of Jesus, who may have existed, but is unlikely to have healed sick people with a touch or risen from the grave after three days.
@DrJames Powers grow up
@DrJames Powers Bible is for Infidels .. follow thor
The most frustrating thing is when you hand a religious person a rock and they say "Faith tells me this is an apple"
Before my ultimate demise I'd like to meet Matt Dillihunty.
Karen Armstrong's book A Case for God made me an atheist. I don't think that was her intention. Her case wasn't compelling.
edit: A Case for Christ
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"Y'all just wanna sin!" Baptists, fundies aren't the only ones that say that. Mormons do, too. When I left them, that's what they said about me.
I do indeed want to sin. Except I don't call it sin. I just call it ordinary life.
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@@hempleafcar1 Dude. Are you off your meds?? This entry looks like you're having some issues. Please consult your therapist.
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Solid lecture... it just hurts to hear the story about the Polish girl. It's important that the dogma and lies produced by religion would, I hope, one day come to an end.
This is one of Matts better speeches. FWIW.
I love this guy. Although he is 10 years my junior he is still a hero of mine.
Good for Matt; as an Atheist for over 45 years, I'm right there with him.
The story about the girl who hanged herself--how terribly sad.
Daniel Gunter
Does anyone have a link to that story?
Evil Nick www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2476751/Polish-girl-Maria-Kislo-12-hangs-missed-dead-father.html
The fact that christians say that God is the only way , and say that yiu gotta believe it on faith , which means believing without seeing. And say oh well god healed that woman with cancer , no more than likely the meds that they've been developing for years just for this type of cancer healed her. Believing in God is a scapegoat to not think of things rationally. I would love to listen to one his lectures. He has a way of explaining things that justify what he's saying and explaining the reasoning behind it, but also makes it to where yiu can read between the lines at the same time and not just absorb it like a sponge, but also process it in your own mind
As an ex muslim it was all a little overly sacred for me. I was 35 when an acquaintance just mentioned that there is not much historical record that aupports the existance of Moses. That struck me. I investigated and it all started unravelling. Moses, David, Jonah, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Adam and the entire story of these sacred persons that was weaved around me as a child to convince me blind that there were 124k of such personalities and the lineage ended with Mohammad, it all just shattered. I went in all directions, specially in light of the extensive knowledge I had aquired about Islam and other religions. And after a few years of investigation trying to prove my beliefs of 35 years, I failed and everything I beleived just shartered on every step.
At thos point I realized that the doubt that person created in my mind with the Moses' existance question was the point that my faith was already gone.
Today I love a free life. Free of guilt. Free of false reasons to do things. Free of fear of the end of times. The best part is that i quit lying the day i was an athiest. That brought me true freedom. Since then my mantra has been:
Sans end
Sand fear
Right reasons
And two people who taught me how yo seek the truth were Matt Dilahunty and Tracie Harris. I thank them both. And God, of course. It would happed had he not willed it for me. 😊
I deeply admire people with the patience to argue, and try to educate, or even crack the walls of religious adherents. I was exposed to several religions as a youth and not a single one ever made sense to me other than to act as succor. Many's the time I have tried to discuss with and light the way for others to free themselves to live their best life... but the older I get, the less patience I have. So for those of you continuing to fight the good fight, I salute you, 'cause I'm done.
thx Matt for helping me make sense of it ...put into words that I couldn't do so well love the show
You ended thus on such a wonderful note! Thank you.
I don't get why it took some people so long. When I was twelve I had my illustrated kids version of the bible and it didn't fit into my understanding of the world then either. I could never wrap my head around faith, to this day i don't really understand what it is besides gullibility, or why we should have it.
+Serephus: it's all about investment. Say if you were punished every time you seemed to dissent in behaviour or attitude, you probably learned through classical conditioning to fear those dissenting volitions. The harsher the punishment, the more the associated fear. I was the same as you, but I wasn't invested.
When you see how often xtians need validation , need to witness, how desperate they are to believe there are dire consequences if you quit religion, I think you can see their underlying anxiety.
Some people like myself were forced into it and to stay in it. When i was 6, My grandfather told me that if I turned out gay ,he'd kill me. He was dead serious and he stuck his finger in my face and said he'd blow my head off. That's why I stayed in and didn't question , I didn't wanna get hurt
james Clark wow! Are you ok now? (& do u happen to be gay?)
If the kids he mentions around 14:30 have parents anything like mine, asking lots of questions is Just going to get them further punished. My parents LOVE the "because I said so" justification and get mad at me constantly because "you don't have to question everything, just accept it and do as you're told".
I don't know your particular circumstances so you may well be justified but as a parent, let me offer some comments. Many times the questions to me were designed, not to get an accurate picture of life, but to get something specific they wanted. At age 16, it was a car they wanted and all the questions were designed to get them that car. They would not accept a reasoned answer that amounted to no car. Nothing wrong with questions but it was all dishonest.
The automatic subtitling is impressivly accurate
If you were here to try and find refutations of some theist positions here's the refutation of the most recent garbage I've heard: presuppositional apologetics. If you don't know, presuppositional apologetics is the position that you can't know anything without God. The first question they rely on in their script is "Can you be wrong about everything you know?" You can destroy the basis for their argument at step 1.
The answer to that question is "No. I can't be wrong about everything I know because I know I am not omniscient."
- If I were omniscient I would know it by definition and would therefore be omniscient.
- If I were omniscient then nothing I knew could possibly be wrong or I would not be omniscient (being omniscient necessarily includes knowing the truth value of all claims) which is a direct contradiction of the original question.
- Your opponent is now forced to say you are either omniscient or you are not.
- If they admit you are omniscient then you can not be wrong about everything you know because by definition you are correct about everything you know and the debate should end right there.
- If they claim you are not omniscient then you have just proven you can not be wrong about everything you know because at least one thing you know is correct. Additionally you have proven this knowledge is possible using only logic and definitions. You have proven that you must be correct by assuming the opposite of your claim and deriving a contradiction by following it through to its logical conclusion. This works because the claim is a true dichotomy and demonstrating that the opposite claim to what you are making in a true dichotomy implies a contradiction is also a method of proof in formal logical structures. God is not necessary at any point to prove you can know this.
The basis of the argument is pretty much dead on the table at this point as you have just proved the foundation is flawed and demonstrated through deriving a contradiction and by the fact that God is not required to know the one thing you can know for certain. For a full refutation of the other points of presuppositional apologetics just look it up. To anticipate the first likely objection logic is man made not god made. Logic is the attempt by humans to make sense and undoubtedly did not exist prior to our invention of language.
Damn, I would have never thought of this. This is brilliant. Thank you. I know I am 4 years late, but who cares :)
@@Mikri90 You and me, both. Well said WoWisdeadtome! Send it to Satan Buggencrap, he'll find some word salad to refute this.
Go start your own channel. Not reading comments that fucking long.
Sye Ten Bruggencate uses this argument of presuppositionalism and he sounds so pompous and ridiculous!
I've been an unbeliever for many years but never knew why, really. I used a common answer of yours "no evidence ' but until I watched this I didn't grasp what the reasons were so thank you for that
Give that man a Knighthood.. oh wait, that would involve some kind of religious ritual..
Tambo74 No when they do it Britain you just kneel and she tap you with a sword and that is it,
Better to believe in a real king than imaginary skygod...if you're into all that worship crap.
FRANCESCO GUICCIARDINI (1483 - 1540), born in Florence.From an aristocratic birth, his father knew Greek and Latin, the reason that he came back to his cultural roots, the Roman. Hia godfather was Marcillio Ficino the greatest Platonic philosopher in Rennesaince. Francesco became "Aristotelean". He studied civil law , at 33 became professor of law at Florence. As Napoleon longed for Goethe to meet, so did King Charles at Bologna. He said of the monks, "these swarms of scoundrels be confined within due limits so they choose between life without crime".
“Christian Faith can never be just
Intellectual curiosity, it must effect your whole life.”
Dr. Scott Hahn
I am a firm believer that Gods were created by man. All the stories work as fairy tales, just not as good as the Brothers Grimm tales. Peace and love everyone! I agree music, art, sex, family, and personal experiences are awe inspiring and quite joyful, not to mention satisfactory.
Darwin and Voltaire released me.
Amazing lecture, Watched all of it
+GalapagosPete
IDK about WLC, but Dillahunty HAS debated Cliffe Knechtle and, I'm sorry to tell you, but Matt wiped the FLOOR with him. Made him look like an idiotic schizophrenic with an imaginary friend none of whose beliefs are actually based in reality.
Matt utterly embarrassed him. It's almost embarrassing to watch Cliffe's pathetic attempts to reason his way in to his "faith," while never actually quite making it.
I live in a very conservative culture now yet again. I wish there were free thinking people around me with whom I could discuss these things. It's been a long process with me. The rare few of us who've squirmed free from religion seem to share so much.
38:30 to 41:20 is fucking badass. Take notes. Oh wait, here's a transcription...
So go ahead... Argue.
She can come up here...
Go ahead. Argue.
Get in conversations, be outspoken,
Avoid, please please please avoid, the overreaching positions that shift the burden of proof,
Making broad claims like, "Well Jesus never existed."
Might be true... Might not be...
It's not necessarily the best place to start, but there's NO REASON TO GO THERE.
Don't run when they're not chasing you.
Don't shift the burden of proof,
Let them try to do it so that you can point out that they've done it.
..."Oh, god's an invented fiction and here's these various biblical interpretations and views that almost nobody holds,
But I'm going to argue against them anyway."
Ask the person what they believe and why.
Get to know them. Engage.
Be skeptical. Be reasonable.
Have confidence in yourself but doubt EVERYTHING you believe, and question everything.
Be compassionate: We were all "worth it"
Be honest: You don't know everything. You're not me... And I don't know everything.
Be caring towards people.
...Which doesn't mean that you cannot be ruthless and relentless in attacking their positions,
As long as you do it honestly and surgically and are clear that... Ok.
On many occasions I have violated this rule...
On the show I have said: "You're a moron."
And what I mean by that, is: In this situation, on this subject, you are being moronic.
And I don't look at it as an attack on that person's entire character,
I realize they do, which is why I'm adding this little caveat and cautioning others.
I realize they do...
My thing is: We're all morons. About some thing at some point.
It's a shorthand for me to say "Oh well you're being a moron." or "You are a moron."
And I'm trying to change some of that...
...Without getting any softer.
Because religions, by and large (at least the versions that I tend to speak out about),
Are vile and disgusting and harmful and poisonous to the universe in which we live,
And I will NEVER, EVER try to play nice about the actual ideas and the harm they do,
Because that twelve year old girl didn't need to die.
Can't wait for this guy to get more publicity and start debating people like WLC & D'souza
WLC won't debate him...
Really? Has he called him out on it?
He won't debate anyone without a Phd
Wow what a douchebag... pretty delusively ostentatious of him - clever way to get out of it though..
Yeah I want him to debate WLC but sadly I don't see that happening anytime soon...
There is no such thing as faith, everyone who claims faith also always claims they have real concrete reasons for belief. If you have real evidence you don't need faith, do you?
So you have a chemical reaction. Not a god.
+johnmonk66 "everyone who claims faith also always claims they have real concrete reasons for belief" is hyperbole, overstating the case. billions of humans have *never bothered* to make the 'followup' claim [admittedly, it's an almost entirely spurious claim anyway!] because their faith has *never been questioned* by a fellow human.
+alic seprin you demonstrate honesty and self-awareness. now i wish you luck discovering alternative concepts and habits on which you can [for lack of a better word] 'rely'.
"not even acknowledged as a religious view" - good reminder that religions are *cultural*, they are *in-groups*, sharing fundamental characteristics with sports teams, nations, corporations, etc. you certainly present yourself as closer to a freethinker than to a "cult of one". :)
Cannot wait until he visits Australia next year.
I am an Atheist and proud to be. Thank you for your work.
Hearing that story about that 12 year old girl in Poland is just...so so sad. That poor girl
Sending love to all my Arkie Atheists from Bradley County.
I think for me the defining moment was when I realized the that the Christians who were recruiting me to their cause/ cult, were basing their lives on a philosophy that nobody can live up to, and nobody was trying to. The hypocritical nature of the people was a true reflection of what I saw in their book, and especially in their church. I was 14 years old when I found the truth. Now that I have studied it well, and have confirmed my initial suspicions about the source of this absurd faith, I have also been afforded some insight into the real weaknesses of the human psyche. We, as a species, are far less evolved than we probably should be by now. The fact that so many of us "still need" gods to understand ourselves, is the clue to how far we have to go. Atheism is the way out, and science is the way forward.
You're right on Tim.
It sure is. I've been an atheist for close to 2 years.
Do you debate theists on different videos on youtube? I do it for entertainment when I can't go to sleep when I get off of work. Have learned a lot about theists in the process. Of course I follow Dillahunty, Aronra and Seth Andrews. Always enjoy a bit of Harris, Dawkins and the late Hitchens.
Tim Hallas Evansville Indiana and you?
Tim Hallas Every once in a while I'll get in a heated debate with a Christian. When that happens again, I'll let you know which video it is and you can come in and join the fun.
I sure wish I could have been there unfortunately I was in Texas. I'm sure I would have enjoyed it this really is a good show!
Holy (or unholy or ordinary) shit, I had no idea Arkansas had any freethinkers! I’ve lived here for 18 years and I’ve never seen one(at least one out of the closet)! Oh, finding this Channel gives me crazy hope! Hallelujah, oops, EVOLUTION!!!
LOL I've "sinned" waaay more as a Christian than I ever even thought of doing as an atheist 😂
This is probably one of my favorite talks by Matt. That 12 yr old breaks my heart. I have sarcastically asked why people don't kill themselves to rush to heaven because they obviously don't believe this nonsense as much as reality. Children deserve protection and honesty. I will NEVER be afraid to tell a child god is make believe.
EXTREMELY annoying how Matt slightly exits the frame all the time. If the camera person had just zoomed out a tiny bit, everything would have been all right. I know, this is my OCD talking, but I could hardly watch it because of it.
Pro tip scoll down a wee bit and just lisent? i mean we all know him and know what he looks like?
I have You Tube Red. I can use other apps while YT plays in background. Why would I want to look at Matt anyway?
WATCH with EARS perhaps USE both EYE'S for NOTES U just DID visit www.hemp123.org fyi PERHAPS tmi 4 your Cogitation SUGGESTED reading REREAD with EAR'S th-cam.com/users/oahspebible SCROLL TITLES www.eckancar.org Click HU www.fhu.com Meditation ACCEPT what U believe 2 be true gently reject the rest www.universal-spirit.org get FrEE stuff www.yahweh.com Newsletter? www.yahwehsnewkingdom.com Book ? That which is B4&Behind U are small matters COMPARED 2 that which is within U thanks 4 shh AIRING from th-cam.com/users/yahwaya2z th-cam.com/users/francishatin th-cam.com/users/budlight32164 SCROLL various TITLES shh AIR as FAR&WIDE as POSSIBLE
A very great deal of wisdom in Matt's public speaking.... more considered and coherent than when he is responding on the fly to idiot calls to the TV show.
However, the proposition that everyone is "reasoned" into a religious view is not valid.
Most religious people are what they are because of UPBRINGING. Which is to say, they lived their formative years in an environment where the religious dogma was constantly reiterated as if it was fact, and was never questioned. In other words, they didn't get convinced because they THOUGHT about it. They got *indoctrinated* because they DIDN'T think about it.
Talking about religious visions and miracles. I would very much like see a reality TV show where believers are introduced to strongly potent hallucogenics. It would be so interresting to see if they still would believe everything they experience as truth, and they try to explain what they just experienced.
Reality is realised through the brain which is a flawed instrument, and more often than not modifies what we see and hear. Noone should trust it blindly and stay sceptical.
My belief in the Bible was destroyed by my minister father when his justification for things in there didn't make any sense with the reality I saw around me but my belief in God was slowly chiped away by listening to debates, conversations and responses videos that showed me where I was flawed and that the most honest and best answer I can give is .... I don't know
It is cool to argue against other views with your own definition of truth and terms. It will be interesting to see him converting to "faith." He sounds like he wants to prove what he really doubts.
What?
Religion has not stopped xians from sinning...
Couldn't have said it any better than this.
Kelly Clark 94% of prisioners.....so much for being good
Heinlein. That nails it down for me.
It's such a weird rationalization that theists in my life made when I showed them that I live a godless existence. They like Matt's parents defaulted to devil worshipping and damnation as well. I had to explain to them that "if I don't believe in any gods, then what makes you think that I believe in any devils or demons either". That gave them a bit of reassurance lol.
7:30The ultimate authority when it comes to science is NOT DATA but THE METAPHYSICAL AXIOMS
`I know what changed my mind. I wanted to get rid of the baggage of god belief (thanks Matt for the nice way to sum it up.). This adds another dimension to reasoning which ultimately does not help. Since my switch, I feel better about everything.
He mentions 'Deepak Chopra' - which I always thought was some frozen Japanese dish?!?
Adam. IKR?
I thought the same. A name brand of frozen veggies or a refreezable medical device of some kind. 'Get Deepak for your aches and pains.'
It's dried woodles. And freeze dried chunks of?..they'll assert that some chunks are certain meats and plants. Others are soul flakes and miracle powder.
So you say happy, tasty words to 400 mL of water for 15 - 20 minutes or until it looks quite happy. then pour the joyenized water over the woodles and chunks. Stir 3x with a wooden or glass spoon or rod. Not plastic or metal. Tap the edge of the container twice with the rod.
Meditate until your stomach and the soup want to become one. Not just gurgle okay eat. Tummy singing to soup happens early. Wait Til you hear the soup singing back.
Theist logic. A Tornado destroys a town but one house survives. The owner says " if you dont believe in god, come talk to me " He is suggesting god spared his house.
My question is why did God allow the town to be destroyed in the first place to show how considerate he is by sparing one house?
Its a theists pretzel logic.
Matt is reasoned , knows the bible inside out and has that inside edge that shows where christianity FAILS
excellent speech
It breaks my heart when I hear atheists talk about their families. Ashame how religion tears ppl apart.
,Awesome Matt! Thumbs up!!!
Be compassionate we are all worth it. That's what he says. I agree. Why?? I don't know
For me it was as a teen I wanted to train for the ministry so I started investigating the origins, history and theology of the Bible and Christianity. It took little time to realize it was all unjustifiable nonsense. Only later did I delve deeply into science and then philosophy, which only reinforced my negative atheism (in general) and positive atheism on the religions and their gods that have been created over the history of the world.
It is more revolutionary to reject theism. Take that religious "behavioral health" centers.
at 35 :12 he talks about belief in aliens. But if someone tells me about their experience with aliens, I can simply say I don't know and leave it at that. There is no decision to be made. But that's not the case with the question of a Creator. We live our lives under the assumption of a Creator or under the assumption of no Creator.
Several things changed my mind. But one stood out. Animals. We are told they just die and that's it. So when they suffer, it's meaningless. But our suffering is supposed to please God and mean something. Animals feel pain and fear. But religious people claim animals don't suffer. If that was true, no vets would use pain killers. No one would put animals to sleep. So why does God allow them to suffer, and they are much more moral than most people, and no heaven for them?
@@thevulture5750 Just going with what Christians have told me.
@@thevulture5750 None of that convinces me there is a god. You have to demonstrate God. Since God wants to hide and not communicate with us, except with sunsets, puppy dog faces, and ambiguous things, there is no proof. I guess it's fine with you that a lot of animals suffer and just die and that's it. So you think animals can be replaced, just like your God killed people off with Job, and then replaced his family. It's pretty callous. Your suffering is appreciated by your God, since he loves to see you suffer.
@@thevulture5750 Your videos won't prove any god. If someone had proof, it would be more than well known out there. Unless you think you are extra special and have proof. Why should I spend my time watching your videos? Your accounts of floods and cloths show no proof of a god.
"Suffering is always for a reason..." There is no reason. You can pretend there is, to make your suffering noble and meaningful. You're saying that because you want to talk about your religion, it's the reason.
@@thevulture5750 Thanks for letting me know I have permission to believe what I want. Those videos have no evidence of any god.
@@thevulture5750 If you had proof of a god, if you had filmed a god, or had an audio, and it was proof, it would be the biggest event in science that ever happened. So no....I haven't heard of your videos. I'm sure it's just more babble about books, sunsets, feelings, prophesies, etc.
jpmortician "Put Cliffe Knechtle or William Lane Craig in the room and Mr. Dillahunty would being sitting down and shutting up."
Yes, right after he showed them to be wrong.
Theistic reasoning...there are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on all the beaches of the world....but there's only one star with life on it, just so that the hebrew war god could pull off a plan to rescue a minority of earth humans from the consequences of his own hatred
Matt would sit down or leave as those two individuals are a waste of space. You just cant discuss with dumb people, Matt knows this
The euphoria referred to has been experienced by some folks when converting to Communism.
clever guy
Matt can give a damn good speech. If he was an asshole and was fine with lying about being religious, he could have made a great politician.
This is why
Man so glad he came to A-State
I love Matt.......I stopped believing completely after years of doubt when I was saved by science, (not prayer) having had surgery that save my life 20 years ago and that is why I am still with my spouse and kids today! it was a surgery that humans could not get say 200 years ago and is quite common today! I am a deep thinker and will share this --- As we know scientist are able to clone animals, so we know that is true for us as well.......I would like to ask a religious person, if a human was cloned - would it have a soul?
Help the poor, fight for social justice, have faith in life. This is God's law.
Don't talk bollocks. How many genocides are too many?
+Mark Angellotti "William Lane Craig's arguments rest on a series of unfounded assumptions."
I call bullshit. Which of the premises do you think is false?
"First, he assumes God exists."
That's... no part of his arguments, no. You don't have to assume god exists to see *any* of the premises are more plausibly true than their negations.
"Then he assumes God is good."
That's not in any of his premises, either. I'm beginning to think you're faulting him for being a Christian before/without even *looking* at the arguments he presents. A sort of premature dismissal of him on a personal level...
"Then he assumes objective moral values exist. But he has not proven any of this."
While that is indeed one of the premises in one of his arguments, it isn't just an assumption. He gives a *reason* to believe in objective morality, this being our moral senses. And he argues (and I agree) that for any argument you can run to be skeptical of our moral senses, we can find a parallel argument for skepticism of our *physical* senses.
Moreover, the moral argument isn't essential to his cumulative case for Christian theism. So even if I granted your claim that it rests on unfounded assumptions, it wouldn't affect his other, more essential arguments in the slightest.
"The problem of evil is extremely potent."
Then you need to be the one to support its key premise. Why do you think we can be confident that god couldn't possibly have morally sufficient reasons for permitting suffering/evil in the world?
"If God exists, why allow children to starve to death and suffer painful deaths?"
That's not an argument, just a question. If this is to be more than just emotionally charged rhetoric, you need an argument to show that there can't be a good reason for such things. And remember, if we exist for an eternity, that would surely have to be the realm of significance, not this one.
"Sure, theists can say, "But God works in mysterious ways. God might have a good reason for allowing children to starve to death." But as long as the reasons are not provided, we have no reason to believe God exists-"
That's a non sequitur. It ignores all of the *other* reasons (Craig's other arguments, personal experiences, etc.) that one could have.
"and if God were to exist, we have no reason to believe God's reasons for allowing children to starve are valid reasons."
But no reason to believe they *aren't* valid, either, which is the point. The problem of evil is an anti-theistic argument. You as the proponent of the argument have the burden of proof to show that the aforementioned hidden premise (that god could not have morally sufficient reason to permit suffering) is true. Unless and until you can do that, the problem of evil argument fails.
"All the suffering in the world supports the idea that we live in a naturalistic world, not an intelligently designed world."
It doesn't support either in and of itself, no. You need that other premise to form an argument.
Everything has a cause.
The sun moves across the sky every day.
There must be a cause of the sun moving
And we call that Apollo.
Therefore Apollo exists.
The sun does not move dickwad.
@@spaceghost8995 the sun and the entire solar system actually do move, the sun doesn't just sit in one spot with a velocity of zero
You know when I was young a locking grade school I felt like I was being pushed to accept something and I never really believed and I don't think most kids ever really believe that until their parents really start reinforcing the belief. But I felt like I was made or push to do something I really didn't want to do and I don't really believe in these man-made religion that's a bunch of craziness but do I believe we may have been created by some higher power while course I do do I think the Bible or the man-made religions has anything to do with it and no I think whatever made us started us into some tests to before this out on this planet will come back a few million years and see how they done
“My Sweet Lord.”
-George Harrison
bit by bit i began to doubt the Bible, I absolutely believe there is something greater than man.
It's called Keanu Reeves
...of course...we call it them nature and time...
15:50 (ish) must be talking about Sye... :D
Sure sounds like it! 50 years ago, I used to use repetitive arguments like Sye's, but I was 8 years old and in the schoolyard. Fortunately, I grew up.
Nah, it was his debate with Cliffe Knechtle
Cliffe's entire debate was this. If you want to pull your hair out as he talk about his "atheist" friends that almost assuredly don't actually exist.
Everything that exists had a beginning.
Therefore the universe had a beginning.
There must be a cause of the beginning.
Therefore there must have been something before the beginning.
Therefore there was no beginning.
It's turtles all the way down
not to trivialize the girls death, but she must have not gotten the memo that killing yourself is a sin punishable by going hell, and the fact that the mother would be willing to do the same says how little some peoples self worth is and that religion often takes that away.