As an atheist, I can certainly see what people get out of a belief system, even if I don't think any of it is true. That said, I think this was a very even handed critique of evangelicalism, and one that avoided sounding too patronizing or condescending. I also wonder if evangelicals realize that their politicizing is doing more to push people on my side of the board than anything I could say to them.
Heck yeah. Two of my favorite Christian thinkers and two brothers who represent the best of Christianity. I would love to see a Robin Parry interview and a Brad Jersak one too.
Oh the thinking part is that they are liars telling takes of the jesus of fairytales not the truth about the jesus of history. So enough of your childish nonsense
I’ve been a fan of Brian Zahnd for quite some time now. Thoroughly enjoy his books and sermons. Happy to have discovered you too, Randal, much more recently. Keep up the great work!
I wonder if the Evangelicals' total embrace of Trump will drive away their young? Young people can spot hypocrites from a mile away, and they despise them.
My own feelings about the current crisis within American Evangelicalism see it as the climax of a number of uniquely American cultural phenomena reaching their use-by dates at the same time. Among these I would include our toxic individualism, our notion of American exceptionalism, and the seldom seen but historically present xenophobia that has always been a part of our national character. I frankly don't see a future for Evangelicalism, but rather something different from what has gone before. And it too may well fall prey to our national psychoses.
I am an evangelical with many evangelical friends. I am afraid that Brian may be right. The people I had fellowship with, who are friends still, have adopted what I consider a crazy right-wing almost militant ideology that I consider a heresy. I am confused how that happened. However it happened, it has been a mistake. The history of the church tells us that alignment or being unequally yoked with the world is a disaster. The bright side to this is that America does not define the church. My experience with Christians in distant places convinces me that the church is alive and well in the most unlikely places like Pakistan and Kenya and Uganda and India. In these places there is no idea that Christians can take over the government or should and Iran. They are too busy living out the life of Christ and serving and preaching Christ. And they are having wonderful success. The history of the church has been that when the church turns from the primary mission Jesus gave us to other things, God passes the baton on to those who will. I think we are seeing this happen.
Read of our spiritual forefathers throughout church history and the cultural political pulls that drew at them. The church is in constant need to correct this. Today is no different. Our brethren in other parts of the world face their own battles with this in principle. Jesus will build His church.
Brian I cannot agree more reference using the State and its legislation to stop abortion. It's a matter of conscience the FREEDOM to choose using the Genesis metaphor, within the " Tree of Good and Evil."
Brian landed on the central failure of christians in America. We have been lured by political power. The Spirit is trying to lead us into an absolute relationship with the Father through Christ. We are to be 100% dependent on this relationship and not on the flesh.
Probably most people now think so. It isn't actually true, I am an evangelical - believing is preaching the good news of Jesus - but definitely not MAGA. But neither am I a fan of the present version of Democratic ideology. I think their emphasis on personal freedom has brought us lawlessness in the streets and the disintegration of the family. It certainly seems to have created havoc in Seattle with the defund the police movement.
The overwhelming support for Trump among evangelicals reveals how shallow and empty their beliefs are. If you can’t see how evil Trump is then your faith is of no value.
Nobody knows or cares about the moral life of the captain on the Titanic. They cared he rammed the ship into an iceberg. Similarly, few care about MLKs moral failures in light of his whole life.
Max Weber was correct 😮on how American Christianity has more become an extention of consumer capitalism......individulistic comodification of faith! Praying that Jesus molds us to an actual loving community!!
Thank you for this- completely random but I saw a youth pastor present this dilemma to his students recently and I had a hard time with it Basically you are kidnipped with your family and the person says if you deny being a Christian he will let your family live and you die, if not he will kill your family and you live. The youth pastor used this example as a way to say you should never deny Christ or he will deny you, even if you are saving your family. I had a hard time with this because I think it was a bit extreme. what would you say to this scenario?
I'm 62. I was born and raised in Christianity. Thanks to Donald Trump and his Christian followers allowed me to questioning my faith. I'm now an athiest. If you want to know why, I would love to share with you my testimony.
I am 62 and was genuinely transformed by Christ. I will never become an atheist, nor would I ever be tempted to vote for Trump. I did study the Bible in an Evangelical seminary for many years and learned much more as a missionary overseas where I started 5 churches. The politics of our present age is based on lies, which construct a false worldview, that appeals to the flesh. Here in Texas the political ads are mostly designed to make people stumble over transgender, or else racist xenophobia that runs counter to all Christ taught His disciples to be. I am sorry you lost your faith, but urge you to consider pursuing God who has spoken.
Neither LGBTQ "issues" nor abortion are mentioned in the Bible so how about - using common sense? So why should I care what other people do in their bedrooms for instance? As long as it's consenting adults? I really don't care. How about treating others as you want to be treated by them? Seems to be a good 'golden rule' (pun intended). The old testament also says to not oppress the stranger in your lands. I think it's interesting for example that jews have a very different perspective on abortion but use the exact same texts. Evangelicals have been influenced by the catholic church in that regard (and the catholic church has changed its opinion on when life begins multiple times throughout history - at one point they taught it begins at birth, then they taught its 30 days after conception, then they taught immediately after conception - the biblical authors of course didn't even know there was such a thing as a female egg). From a biblical perspective you could argue that a human being starts to be a "living soul" when taking its first breath. So as always - the Bible has multiple perspectives on an issue and we need to use our brains and consider that "with whatever mete we measure, it will be measured to us". That alone solves a ton of question. The golden rule, the double commandment of love and the fact that Jesus says to us - God will judge us according to our own standards - that's the basis of every biblically sound Christian ethic.
@BrotherBarton Good answer, but TRUTH and LOVE must go hand-in-hand. The Christian church uses domination, cruelty, and judgement to force "truth" down everyone's throat.
@BrotherBarton What then would Christians think about those issues? Would they be for or against? Does love require affirmation of whatever someone wants?
I think maybe that I have been there, and can feel your pain. It helped me, personally, when I was able to let go of the idea that we have to understand everything. So often in culture, people are ridiculed for refusal to conform to something even when it is obviously wrong. In my opinion our ability to accept a lie doesn't make us better people. Some people would argue that you need faith...
1. I'd never go to the past. Why? Because I'm a woman and I know that I will not be safe. White men can fantasize about visiting the past. Nobody else can. For me, it's always the future because hopefully, one day, I'll be considered a full human being. 2. I don't buy the whole sanctity of life bs from the early church. Sanctity of life = women aren't human. I do not see Christians being concerned about women's safety or rights. We're an after thought. More often, Christians see women as "fertile broodmares" or "old witches to be burned". We are an after thought. Besides, Christianity is based on the death of an innocent being. So much of sanctity of life. 3. I think people have to make moral choices at some point rather than refraining. WWJD? Well, he'd be calling out right wing evangelicals as whited sepulchers or snakes. He's be whipping the predators (aka moneylenders). He'd be accepting of the misfits, the marginalized. At least, that's the version of Jesus that I like. The one who took a moral stance and chose the underdog over the oppressor. The guy who chose to heal wounds and reconcile with the marginalized. It's a very easy Christianity to never actually act like the Jesus in the Bible. The guy made his own horsewhip to whip the moneylenders. Think of how angry he was for the time it took to create that whip and then, he went to town. Where is that anger from Christians when evil people are harming the oppressed? Think of your heroes. Like bonhoeffers. He took a stand. John Brown. He took a stand. Sophie scholl. She took a stand. Harriet Tubman. She took a stand. Heroes fight evil.
Because the abortion issue was talked about, not merely mentioned, in this interview, I feel it appropriate to pose here, as I've posed on a number of pro-life channels, the famous embryo rescue thought experiment. You're in a fertility clinic when a raging fire breaks out. In one corner of the room is a container holding fifty fertilized human eggs; in the other corner is a small child. You only have time to grab one or the other, the container or the child, and dash to safety. So which do you grab? Since even the pope would grab the child, the inescapable upshot of this thought experiment is that NO ONE deep inside, when push comes to shove, really thinks that a human embryo, from the moment of conception, is a baby or a child or a full human being. Period. None of this, of course, should dissuade us from seeking to protect, in increasing measures as the embryo develops, potential human life.
Thanks, I use that thought experiment in my dialogue with Trent Horn on abortion. The main critical weakness of the right wing prolife movement is their glaringly truncated view of what it is to be prolife. But the second critical weakness is the failure to recognize the plausibility of an ontological developmental view throughout fetal gestation.
The what/if fallacy is a non-argument, or a logically-flawed argument, that is used to point out the weaknesses in an argument by a series of hypothetical questions.
Speaking as a litigator with over three decades of experience, I can assure you that cases of the highest import routinely turn on the answers to hypothetical questions of the what-if variety. Indeed, the higher the court you're litigating in, the more such questions become front and center.
What's sad is that pro-life advocates will save a young child over 50 embryos, but turn around and save a fetus over the mother carrying it. They will sacrifice women for political ends.
If there was no money whatsoever to earn from the religious grift these two would not be religious this is all about power and money and has nothing to do with reality in any way whatsoever. Is greed in the 10 silly commandments that none of you follow
As a Christian I am against art, books, reading, dancing, singing , women who don’t cover up head to toe, women in general, alcohol, drugs, vegetables, gays , abortion, freedom, democracy and all other religions!!!! I only support god, guns ,Jesus and the Bible !
I think I know what Jesus would say to you , with all the love in his heart Depart from me I never knew you He only speaks to the truth in a person because he is life and what you describe is not life ❤
As an atheist, I can certainly see what people get out of a belief system, even if I don't think any of it is true. That said, I think this was a very even handed critique of evangelicalism, and one that avoided sounding too patronizing or condescending. I also wonder if evangelicals realize that their politicizing is doing more to push people on my side of the board than anything I could say to them.
Heck yeah. Two of my favorite Christian thinkers and two brothers who represent the best of Christianity. I would love to see a Robin Parry interview and a Brad Jersak one too.
I have a Parry interview: th-cam.com/video/Q0Xz_g5C1Zg/w-d-xo.html
@ Oh yeah. I remember watching and liking this. Whoops.
What’s the bet the are simply good liars
Oh the thinking part is that they are liars telling takes of the jesus of fairytales not the truth about the jesus of history. So enough of your childish nonsense
I’ve been a fan of Brian Zahnd for quite some time now. Thoroughly enjoy his books and sermons. Happy to have discovered you too, Randal, much more recently. Keep up the great work!
I never thought Christianity would be so deeply aligned with authoritarian forces. Maybe I was just naive?
Cf 1930s Germany
Cf 1530 Geneva
Cf Vatican's late middle ages
@ I know! It’s not like there isn’t historical precedent. But, I know these people--and the turn they have taken is so dark.
@@greglogan7706 Cf Roman Empire?
Most of Christian history was associated with non-democratic or republic-based governments
What' the other options? More Marxism expanding
I wonder if the Evangelicals' total embrace of Trump will drive away their young? Young people can spot hypocrites from a mile away, and they despise them.
My own feelings about the current crisis within American Evangelicalism see it as the climax of a number of uniquely American cultural phenomena reaching their use-by dates at the same time. Among these I would include our toxic individualism, our notion of American exceptionalism, and the seldom seen but historically present xenophobia that has always been a part of our national character. I frankly don't see a future for Evangelicalism, but rather something different from what has gone before. And it too may well fall prey to our national psychoses.
The hateful among the fold have brought a bucket full of coffin nails to the faith.
@@billybobwombat2231 very poetic
If the American church is going to survive the next two hundred years, it is going to take conversations just like this one.
I am an evangelical with many evangelical friends. I am afraid that Brian may be right. The people I had fellowship with, who are friends still, have adopted what I consider a crazy right-wing almost militant ideology that I consider a heresy. I am confused how that happened. However it happened, it has been a mistake. The history of the church tells us that alignment or being unequally yoked with the world is a disaster.
The bright side to this is that America does not define the church. My experience with Christians in distant places convinces me that the church is alive and well in the most unlikely places like Pakistan and Kenya and Uganda and India. In these places there is no idea that Christians can take over the government or should and Iran. They are too busy living out the life of Christ and serving and preaching Christ. And they are having wonderful success.
The history of the church has been that when the church turns from the primary mission Jesus gave us to other things, God passes the baton on to those who will. I think we are seeing this happen.
Amen
Read of our spiritual forefathers throughout church history and the cultural political pulls that drew at them. The church is in constant need to correct this. Today is no different. Our brethren in other parts of the world face their own battles with this in principle. Jesus will build His church.
“A failed experiment “ is an understatement, it’s fundamentally flawed as it founded on hate whilst proclaiming love.
YES! The crossover Ive been waiting for. So glad this happened.
Brian I cannot agree more reference using the State and its legislation to stop abortion. It's a matter of conscience the FREEDOM to choose using the Genesis metaphor, within the " Tree of Good and Evil."
Brian landed on the central failure of christians in America. We have been lured by political power. The Spirit is trying to lead us into an absolute relationship with the Father through Christ. We are to be 100% dependent on this relationship and not on the flesh.
Sadly not unique to Christians in America at this time in history. It is a perennial problem Jesus and the apostles spend much time warning about.
Evangelical = Trump / MAGA
@@mawhel 💯%
Probably most people now think so. It isn't actually true, I am an evangelical - believing is preaching the good news of Jesus - but definitely not MAGA. But neither am I a fan of the present version of Democratic ideology. I think their emphasis on personal freedom has brought us lawlessness in the streets and the disintegration of the family. It certainly seems to have created havoc in Seattle with the defund the police movement.
The overwhelming support for Trump among evangelicals reveals how shallow and empty their beliefs are. If you can’t see how evil Trump is then your faith is of no value.
I see how evil Trump is and it is a lot less evil than Harris is
Perfectly described.
Nobody knows or cares about the moral life of the captain on the Titanic. They cared he rammed the ship into an iceberg. Similarly, few care about MLKs moral failures in light of his whole life.
Max Weber was correct 😮on how American Christianity has more become an extention of consumer capitalism......individulistic comodification of faith! Praying that Jesus molds us to an actual loving community!!
Thank you for this- completely random but I saw a youth pastor present this dilemma to his students recently and I had a hard time with it
Basically you are kidnipped with your family and the person says if you deny being a Christian he will let your family live and you die, if not he will kill your family and you live. The youth pastor used this example as a way to say you should never deny Christ or he will deny you, even if you are saving your family.
I had a hard time with this because I think it was a bit extreme. what would you say to this scenario?
I'm 62. I was born and raised in Christianity. Thanks to Donald Trump and his Christian followers allowed me to questioning my faith. I'm now an athiest. If you want to know why, I would love to share with you my testimony.
I am 62 and was genuinely transformed by Christ. I will never become an atheist, nor would I ever be tempted to vote for Trump. I did study the Bible in an Evangelical seminary for many years and learned much more as a missionary overseas where I started 5 churches. The politics of our present age is based on lies, which construct a false worldview, that appeals to the flesh. Here in Texas the political ads are mostly designed to make people stumble over transgender, or else racist xenophobia that runs counter to all Christ taught His disciples to be. I am sorry you lost your faith, but urge you to consider pursuing God who has spoken.
well done!
Athiests and God haters like this type of message
What should Christians think about issues such as lgbtq, abortion, and immigration?
Neither LGBTQ "issues" nor abortion are mentioned in the Bible so how about - using common sense?
So why should I care what other people do in their bedrooms for instance? As long as it's consenting adults? I really don't care. How about treating others as you want to be treated by them? Seems to be a good 'golden rule' (pun intended).
The old testament also says to not oppress the stranger in your lands.
I think it's interesting for example that jews have a very different perspective on abortion but use the exact same texts. Evangelicals have been influenced by the catholic church in that regard (and the catholic church has changed its opinion on when life begins multiple times throughout history - at one point they taught it begins at birth, then they taught its 30 days after conception, then they taught immediately after conception - the biblical authors of course didn't even know there was such a thing as a female egg). From a biblical perspective you could argue that a human being starts to be a "living soul" when taking its first breath. So as always - the Bible has multiple perspectives on an issue and we need to use our brains and consider that "with whatever mete we measure, it will be measured to us". That alone solves a ton of question. The golden rule, the double commandment of love and the fact that Jesus says to us - God will judge us according to our own standards - that's the basis of every biblically sound Christian ethic.
@BrotherBarton Good answer, but TRUTH and LOVE must go hand-in-hand. The Christian church uses domination, cruelty, and judgement to force "truth" down everyone's throat.
@BrotherBarton What then would Christians think about those issues? Would they be for or against? Does love require affirmation of whatever someone wants?
@BrotherBarton Take lgbtq.
@BrotherBarton The Bible DOES speak directly about homosexuality in both Old and New Testaments. And it says that God condemns it. Now what?
Being ‘pro gun’ isn’t anti-life
I have nothing but deep hatred now. Thank conservativism.
Because you don't have love. God is love. He who hates his brother does not have God.
@matthewashman1406 Water is wet. How profound.
I think maybe that I have been there, and can feel your pain. It helped me, personally, when I was able to let go of the idea that we have to understand everything. So often in culture, people are ridiculed for refusal to conform to something even when it is obviously wrong. In my opinion our ability to accept a lie doesn't make us better people. Some people would argue that you need faith...
1. I'd never go to the past. Why? Because I'm a woman and I know that I will not be safe. White men can fantasize about visiting the past. Nobody else can. For me, it's always the future because hopefully, one day, I'll be considered a full human being.
2. I don't buy the whole sanctity of life bs from the early church. Sanctity of life = women aren't human. I do not see Christians being concerned about women's safety or rights. We're an after thought. More often, Christians see women as "fertile broodmares" or "old witches to be burned". We are an after thought. Besides, Christianity is based on the death of an innocent being. So much of sanctity of life.
3. I think people have to make moral choices at some point rather than refraining. WWJD? Well, he'd be calling out right wing evangelicals as whited sepulchers or snakes. He's be whipping the predators (aka moneylenders). He'd be accepting of the misfits, the marginalized. At least, that's the version of Jesus that I like. The one who took a moral stance and chose the underdog over the oppressor. The guy who chose to heal wounds and reconcile with the marginalized. It's a very easy Christianity to never actually act like the Jesus in the Bible. The guy made his own horsewhip to whip the moneylenders. Think of how angry he was for the time it took to create that whip and then, he went to town. Where is that anger from Christians when evil people are harming the oppressed? Think of your heroes. Like bonhoeffers. He took a stand. John Brown. He took a stand. Sophie scholl. She took a stand. Harriet Tubman. She took a stand. Heroes fight evil.
What's forgotten here is the majority of Catholics are voting the same way
I have a strong BS meter, and there is nothing that was written here I can really argue with.
One can be "on fire for Jesus" and actually be on fire for one's self-righteousness, proclaiming "Lord, Lord!"
Because the abortion issue was talked about, not merely mentioned, in this interview, I feel it appropriate to pose here, as I've posed on a number of pro-life channels, the famous embryo rescue thought experiment. You're in a fertility clinic when a raging fire breaks out. In one corner of the room is a container holding fifty fertilized human eggs; in the other corner is a small child. You only have time to grab one or the other, the container or the child, and dash to safety. So which do you grab? Since even the pope would grab the child, the inescapable upshot of this thought experiment is that NO ONE deep inside, when push comes to shove, really thinks that a human embryo, from the moment of conception, is a baby or a child or a full human being. Period. None of this, of course, should dissuade us from seeking to protect, in increasing measures as the embryo develops, potential human life.
Thanks, I use that thought experiment in my dialogue with Trent Horn on abortion. The main critical weakness of the right wing prolife movement is their glaringly truncated view of what it is to be prolife. But the second critical weakness is the failure to recognize the plausibility of an ontological developmental view throughout fetal gestation.
The what/if fallacy is a non-argument, or a logically-flawed argument, that is used to point out the weaknesses in an argument by a series of hypothetical questions.
In the real world those thought experiments are useless.
Speaking as a litigator with over three decades of experience, I can assure you that cases of the highest import routinely turn on the answers to hypothetical questions of the what-if variety. Indeed, the higher the court you're litigating in, the more such questions become front and center.
What's sad is that pro-life advocates will save a young child over 50 embryos, but turn around and save a fetus over the mother carrying it. They will sacrifice women for political ends.
If there was no money whatsoever to earn from the religious grift these two would not be religious this is all about power and money and has nothing to do with reality in any way whatsoever. Is greed in the 10 silly commandments that none of you follow
We need evangelism in Canada church’s.
On my own channel I recently did a video on why, as an Evangelical, I cannot vote for either Harris or Trump.
Return to theone true apostolic catholic church 😂
As a Christian I am against art, books, reading, dancing, singing , women who don’t cover up head to toe, women in general, alcohol, drugs, vegetables, gays , abortion, freedom, democracy and all other religions!!!! I only support god, guns ,Jesus and the Bible !
I think I know what Jesus would say to you , with all the love in his heart
Depart from me I never knew you
He only speaks to the truth in a person because he is life
and what you describe is not life ❤
Oh jesus never once said he was god it is a bare faced liar who would suggest that
If you have seen me you have seen the Father a quote from Jesus
I and the Father are One. Before Abraham was I AM. The Apostles certainly understood that Jesus was the LORD.