Thank you so much for this. I was angry at God for so long that I didn't even realize how bad it was. I was always taught that I was not good enough for him and then when life and its struggles happened, I felt so far from him and so abandoned. I felt I was just not worthy. This video has made me see that God never stopped confronting me with his love. He has always shown me his love and found a way for me to go back to him. Even when I was upset and full of hatred, he's always been with me, showing his love through other people, through situations in life, and learning experiences. I'm truly grateful because now I know the way I experience him and his love has changed but he hasn't, and his love hasn't changed either.
I'm on my face at the goodness of God in this. There is no doubt in my mind that this is true. I have experienced God's relentless love despite sin in my life. And His relentless love has restored me. I no longer desire any of that sin. I feel whole. I am aware of my union with Him. He is so absolutely good. I see this all over scripture and I cannot imagine what people have been taught on how to interpret scripture if anyone finds this heretical.
God is a good God. Nothing but good. In Him there is no shadow. If only fellow Christians will want to learn and understand this, it will be easy for them to Love the Lord their God with all their Heart, their Soul and their streanght without fighting to stay righteous. Ooohhhh my heart breaks for them. We have to pray for our people. We have to pray for Christians. Please are there any prayer warriors ? To intercede
Wow, my spiritual father and confessor is Fr. Anthony Karbo, during our catechism class, he did this talk, and his Triangle talk as well to explain Orthodox spirituality. Fr. Anthony is currently on sabbatical for the rest of the year for health reasons. He could certainly use your prayers. I'm delighted to see his homilies being used outside of the Orthodox Church. If you ever get the chance, to listen to Fr. Anthony tell the story how he developed this homily is hilarious and shows the importance of humility. Thanks again for sharing this one, of many teachings of this Man of God.
This is salvation. This is the light Jesus has been trying to reach us with. This brings freedom from sin. This makes my burden light. I have no reason to be scared. I have no reason sin. I can say I am a friend of God. It makes it easy for me to forgive other. This is the good news that has power to change. And make new. This is the power! In the word of God. This is not God using His sovereign power to kill or send sickneses for as punishment. Wait a ninute if He does, then why do we go back to seek for healing? We must as well accept all the wrong that comes upon us. GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! I can't keep quite.... GGOD IS GOOD!!!!
Thank you for sharing this, Pastor Brian. I am a bit surprised at all of the upset commenters on this video, but I understand the ancient Christian teaching of salvation greatly conflicts with modern, western theories. For those who want to learn more, I would highly recommend a short but excellent book written by a Christian named Athanasius some 1700 years ago called "On the Incarnation."
so glad to see another Protestant rejecting this horribly wicked doctrine in favor of a more Biblical and patristical understanding of salvation! KUDOS to Pastor Brian!
Oooooo this Message of the gosple is the one we call LIGHT!. It is an eye opener. Not the one with fear and vindictiveness. Yet the Love is so much that I have no reason in me to strugle with sin. This is FREEDOM
I grew up with conditional love. Always felt like I had to earn everything, despised myself for not being able to. The most beautiful day was when I found out that I could admit that I'm still a sinner, even after I've "got saved". That salvation is a process, of lifelong hope and trust in Jesus, not just a moment. I'm happy for you that you're not a sinner anymore, and I kinda hope you're wrong about God's wrath being upon sinners, and that He's angry with us, because I'm the worst.
Because of his "anger" towards me I had to give my life to Jesus every night it seemed like. If i didn't ask forgiveness for every little mistake I made I was in big trouble! It took me YEARS as an adult to understand that God is FOR me, even when I was walking apart from him. Is eternity without him real? Yes. Will he judge and punish all sin? Yes. But he is not against me! This is the issue that the protestant version of the gospel brings us to, an angry God that Jesus somehow protects us from
I actually agree with most of what he claims is a truer version of the gospel. My only hesitation would be with the seeming lack of atonement for sin. Brian is right to say that God's main purpose in pursuing humanity is to rescue us from death. But where does death come from? It comes from being separated from God. How are we separated from God? By our sin. So something needs to be done about sin. In the gospel, God doesn't just sweep our sin under the rug by simply deciding to just forgive and forget because God's immutable righteousness demands that payment be made for sin. That is why God came to earth in the person of Jesus, and died the death we should have died and suffered the wrath that we should have suffered so that our sin past present and future could be dealt with, and in doing so made a way for us to be reconciled to Him.
I happen to have found this comment a year after it was posted, so in case you're still listening... :) As far as I understand your question, it is this: "Something needs to be done about sin, and in this model sin seems to just be ignored. So what is done about sin in the ancient/eastern tradition?" The Eastern tradition understands sin in two ways: as a debt against God, and as a marring effect that longterm wrongdoing has had upon our hearts - a marring which makes us evil, which makes other human beings distasteful to us, and which ultimately makes God distasteful to us. The Eastern view of salvation is that God forgives the debt, but that as sinners, we still hate God, and it is Christ's work which corrects this in us - in effect, bringing us back to life. When the terms are understood in this way, for God to forgive sin (as in, our debt) is not to sweep anything under the rug; something indeed must still be "done" about sin (as in, our marred nature), and this it is which he undertook to do as an incarnate man, both in his life and his death.
Alex Marees the answer to sin is the gift of His Dpirit in us through believing in Jesus for that gift which is love itself for God is love. Love fulfills the righteousness of the law. punishment for sin doesnt bring sin to an end in any way. only God living His life through us is freedom from sin. God said when prophesying the new covenant, But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And again, A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
You cannot atone for your sin, you cannot earn salvation. You can only accept God's healing love, and try to live it in your life, or refuse it, ignore it, living life according to your own will. God doesn't give us what we "deserve", and we should be thankful he doesn't.
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law BY BECOMING A CURSE FOR US, because it is written: Everyone who is hung on a tree is cursed. Galatians 3:13
Jesus: Feed your enemies. Turn the other cheek. Love your enemies as yourself. Bless those that curse you. Evangelical’s God: Yeah sorry, I can’t do any of that until I get my rage out.
... and unloving. But the more I understand my sin the more deeply I understand the necessity of believing in a God of wrath. It is truly LOVE that God himself took my wrath. the wrath that I deserve.
Is. 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
The Bible: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" And "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed" The Gospel in chairs:
The Sadducees of the Gospels were people who believed in "sola scriptura" as many modern Protestants. As such, they did not believe in the resurrection. Christ rebukes them and tells them they got it wrong. This is very possible of today as it was during Christ's time.
This definitely is the more correct understanding of God and His nature towards us. I don't for one second believe Brian is attacking propitiation (he himself says that the legal side of what Christ did is indeed a part of it) or the nature of reconciliation. What is being attacked imo, and should be attacked, is the incorrect legalism that comes with a "protestant" view of the gospel (I'm pentecostal). The way I grew up knowing God was that he was mad at me at nearly every junction.
Jesus asks to forgive sinners. But the Protestant doctrine of Martin Luther isn't one of forgiveness. It's of wrath, anger and grudges. God doesn't forgive; he still attacks people. We've just got armor. He doesn't forgive a debt. He just asks for someone else to pay up. He doesn't stop punching. He just asks for someone else to take the beating, because I guess someone has to. The Orthodox doctrine offers true forgiveness and oneness with God.
TO ALL YOU CRITIC'S: There are to many SUPER spiritual people out there that know everything! Do you know how you can tell the people who know very little, they think they know everything. Some of the comments on here are so goofy, I can imagine what is going on is your heads! God is simple, it takes a super spiritual, religious person to complicate Him.
Joh 14:8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Chris Rosebrough seems solid to me! I've listened to his message, far more scripturally based than anything I've heard coming from the emergent church! But hey, they don't really believe the bible is that authoritative anyway, it's more of optional guide than fundamental teaching right?
Where does believing in Jesus for eternal life (John 3:15-18, 36; 5:24; 6:47, etc), or justification by faith apart from works (Gal 2:16), fit with this?
@shawnlazar5693 I had the very same question(s). The struggle I contended with emanated from +40 years of indoctrination that despite all God/Jesus did for me, it all boiled down to a decision I had to make. Said another way, I had to do "something" in order to receive or trigger my salvation. For example, say the sinners pray, repent and/or ask Jesus to come into my heart...there was some act or something I was required to "perform" in order to receive His atonement/gift/salvation. And, if I didn't perform this step before I died, I was banished to Hell. Does this sound familiar to anyone reading this post?! You see, there's nothing I have to do, perform, or even choose in order to receive salvation. In order for me to grasp this, required years of deconstructing my Baptist, Catholic, Word of Faith, Lutheran...all denominational thinking for the "veil over my understanding to be lifted" as Paul talks about in 2 Cor 3:16. In fact, the truth is detailed in the Gospel of John you quoted above: Notice how often John uses the Greek word egento, from ginomai, meaning birth or origin in the 1st chapter. In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was face to face towards God, and the Word was God. All things came into being (ginomai, from genos...to give birth) through him and nothing has any authentic existence outside of their origin (ginomai) in Him. 1 JN 2:8- And yet it is a glorious new message that I am writing to you. You may ask, how can that which is old, also be new. Herein is the secret of its newness: whatever is true of Jesus is equally true of you! Jn 3:13, No one can fully engage in heavens perspective, unless one's heavenly origin is realized. The Son of man declares mankind's co-genesis from above! Lastly, Jn 14:20 Jesus declares the conclusion of his mission wherein in his death and resurrection EVERY possible definition of separation will be canceled! Theres nothing one has to say, do or perform for this to be done jn their life. It already exist. "For in that day, (the day of his death/resurrection) you will have the ability to know what is already true...that we are in seamless union with one another...I am in my Father, you are in me and I am in you. You see, the incarnation does not divide the Trinity, the incarnation celebrates the redeemed inclusion of humanity. Picture 4 circles with the one fitting into the other. The outer circle is the Father, then Jesus in the Father, then Jesus in the Holy Spirit in us. This displays the inseparable, intimate oneness that has always been. Knowing" our position in Jesus/Father/Spirit or them in us, doesn't change the fact we (all humanity) have always been face to face with Father. Our knowing, simply "awakens" us to the reality of our redeemed oneness. In their words, Gold doesn't become gold when it's discovered...but when it's discovered, it certainly becomes priceless currency. Hope this helps. In His grip!
Punishment is the appropriate response for the one who is guilty of breaking a certain law. The important element of retributive justice then is that the guilty party and only the guilty part should be punished, and thus it is logically impossible to punish an innocent person. To punish an innocent person contradicts the very definition of the word "punish" in the judicial sense. Thus, the PST is an oxymoron.
These two "gospels" are two sides of the same coin. They are incomplete without the other. The ironic problem of this video is that it was birthed from a misunderstanding of the gospel-a responding to the appearance of a presentation (called here the "judicial gospel") rather than the heart. I won't respond to every little detail. That would get too long and end up confusing some. But I will give one example: The wrath of Jesus (the one who cannot look upon sin) is displayed in Revelation. The problem here is not the "judicial gospel". I've met many people who have fallen at the feet of Jesus, weeping in JOY at the presentation of the "judicial gospel", and who dance in the knowledge of his compassions! It is NOT devoid the expression of his tender, pursuant delight. The problem is that man looks at the outward appearance of words, while God looks at the heart. In conclusion - This video conveys much truth, and for that I rejoice! See the comments: so many people are overjoyed by God's delight in them!! I am glad at that. But I'm not glad ends with the lie in this video. God has wrath and is holy and cannot look upon sin; and JESUS will slaughter his enemies at his 2nd coming; and the love of God cannot be fully known without knowing the dread of him in truth for what we have done against him. But praise be to Jesus, HE IS MERCIFUL!! ...and his compassions are new every morning. (P.S. - I have wept in bed as he loved the pain out of me. None of what I've said is from mere theory; I have experienced it personally.)
Did you mean wrath of God not wrath of Jesus? Cause I could not find it that way. I don’t see Jesus wrath in the Gospels either I do find him fellowship, eat and even touch sinners there as well. I know some may say Jesus is God and God is Jesus. But I see God is spirit and Jesus was flesh (sarx). He is our (humanity) representative. To show us how to talk to and fellowship with the Father, Our Father whose wrath is used as a furnace of refining fire to burn out everything that separates us from seeing and responding to the way the Trinity fellowships with each other and us.
Amazing video. Well done. See also it on TH-cam in an Orthodox settings (love wins - an orthodox view is the title). My hope is that love will help unite Christians.
if you commit a crime do you believe that you can have someone else take the punishment for you then? if someone came into a courtroom when the judge sentences you to death by electric chair for murder and says" i will take the chair for Chris!" would a fair judge say ok?
You missed the point......God is like Jesus. Jesus said, if you have seen me you have seen the Father. Brian Zahnd knows Jesus is God and so do we but the point is if you what to look at the character of God you must look at Jesus. So God is like Jesus!
Part that seems to me to be missing, is that mankind must personally accept the gift of salvation God provided with the gift of his sons crucifixion's and resurrections. It's a free gift to all, but each individual needs to accept the fact they are sinners and that they accept the Gods gift of salvation from the penalty of our sins.
@TimAGallant Doesn't your heart burn when you hear the truth of what Brian's saying here? Please at least give it a chance! If God's wrath is upon sinners indeed, and angry with them, then why does Jesus (God in human flesh) ask that He forgive the perpetrators of the crime of killing the Perfect One? The worst crime possible, met with forgiveness. Do you believe that Jesus and the Father are different, that they disagree? That God is not one with His Son?
even though you repeat "ancient, patristic and more biblical gospel" like 10 times doesnt make it true, seems harmless but heresies tend to be like that. I wonder what you do with Romans, Isaiah 53:10.
Habakkuk 1:13 was a prophet questioning God, not a statement from God. Christ being God looked upon sin many times. Psalm 7:11, Although God may well be angry with the wicked every day, he still loves us sinners. 1 Cor 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." This is the problem with "sola scriptura" you can find verses to back up any claim.
The Old Testament also makes numerous statements that God greatly dislikes human sacrifice, a practiced by non-Jews to appease their gods However, God did command Abraham to kill his own son Isaac in Genesis 22, however God at the last moment stops the sacrifice and was satisfied with Abraham's obedience. This very fact, carried to its logical conclusion, would eliminate the necessity of the sacrifice death of Christ. It eliminates the atonement and thus over turns the whole Christian Gospel.
Any thoughts on this guy (Chris Rosebrough) with Pirate Christian Radio calling Brian a heretic; who is in danger of damning himself and others with this false gospel?
I dont rightly understand how you can take this, even nod to patristic and apostalic truth, and stay with going your own way? Its like getting back to the basics, but sitting in the class for the intro and going "awesome, thanks, now i know!" then stand up and walk out.
Watched the video. I have to appreciate the heart that seeks to keep the church pure and free of bad doctrine but you arguments are all based off systemic interpretations of the verses you quote. Brian Zahnd and this restorative view simply offers a different system to reconcile contradictory verses in the Bible. You don't prove much in your video and the points you make have all been made before. Maranatha!
So many misunderstandings on the restorative view (which by the way is the Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic and Oriental view): 1) Q. *So there is no need for atonement?* Yes atonement is necessary even in the restorative view; God changes the nature of the person being restored (2 Cor 5:16-18). 2) Q. *So there is no hell?* Yes there still is hell and it is permanent. Those who die hating God will forever hate him and his love be like hot coals on their head. 3) Recall God is not a complex substance (20% mercy, 30% wrath, 45% holy) rather he is a single substance only (Love). His mercy, justice and holiness flow from his love they are derivative elements. He has mercy because he loves you. He has justice because he loves you. He is Holy (that is doesn't sin) because he loves you. 4) Q. *Isn't this heretical* If his is heretical then EVERY single church in the first 1000 years of Christianity got it wrong and was in heresy. Recall religions are passed down one generation to the next. How is it that every single Christian writer (bishops, priests and letters galore from 80 A.D on word) that we have access to got it wrong? If penal substitution was the prevailing view communicated by the twelve and Paul, how was it that no one thought to remember what they taught? 5) Q. *So where does penal substitution come from?* St. Anselm in the 11th century, writing in feudalistic culture, shifts the focus on the honor of God. "The honour taken away must be repaid, or punishment must follow" (Cur Deus Homo ch 8) and later is recorded as saying "the honour of god is injured by the withdrawal of man's service which he is due to offer." St. Anslem did not formulate this system into penal substitution however, he just shifted focus to a system which focus on the honor injured by God. It was not until the reformation, that Luther, who had read Anslem and developed his ideas around Anslem's idea of injury of honor that this penal system actually gets developed. Calvin comes along, and changes much of the terms from honor and injury into court and criminal terms because he was a lawyer by trade.
Evil cannot be eternal, it would mean that Good has not fully conquered evil if it still exists. Hell is evil in itself. So it cannot last eternally. It is a mystery, but was the major point Origen addressed in his inquiry. Questions like this one must be left antinomical in theology. Otherwise, we either fall into a heresy, or then adjust reality to our sinful two-dimensional time-space limited way of thinking, for only a sinner can wish for suffering to exist eternally.
@@Soundofmusic777 Hell is not evil itself. Hell is the natural consequence of those who will not love God. The evil comes from the individuals, not from God. God will not destroy those, because in his Love he allows them to do as they please. Recall Love is doing what is in the best interest of the other AS OTHER. Since the damned do not want to Love God, God doesn't force himself on them. God does not rape.
This makes us feel really good, but it's not quite as Biblical as he makes it out to be. This pastor says that "God never turns away from humanity", but in Ezekiel 7:22 we read that God clearly says "I will turn my face away from them". YHWH will not force His presence on those who clearly reject Him. If a person wants nothing to do with Him and turns His back on YHWH, then YHWH will respect them and turn from them. He will not shine His face (His presence) on those who choose to live in darkness (see Ezekiel 39:23-24). God reads the heart and He knows who those people are. All the examples that this pastor gives are people who are open to hearing the word... Yes, Jesus seeks people out and faces them... even those who clearly reject him, like the Pharisees, but He will not force His presence on those who want nothing to do with Him. That is why we get verses like this: "I will scatter them before the enemy like the east wind. I will show them My back and not My face in the day of their calamity." (Jeremiah 18:17). The beauty is that those who have clearly, and vehemently, rejected God, still have the opportunity to shuv (turn back). God is forgiving and always open to turning back around and facing them if, at any point in their lives, they call on Him. “Return to Me, and I will return to you,” said YHWH (Malachi 3:7). The sentiment of this message is good. Jesus is the pure reflection of who God is; He is exactly what God looks like! God/Jesus seeks us out and faces us at every turn! But even more profound, is that if we reject Him but change our minds and call on Him, He will turn back to us and come running... It is our decision. He forces nothing upon us... and that's the beauty of our God.
You can say it is more biblical, but saying so doesn't make it so. Also, this IS NOT the universal voice of the ancient fathers of the church. To say it is as Brian has said here is to play fast and loose with the historical record.
@SoBrian4 I'm sorry that you grew up with a perversion, but the solution is not error in the other direction. The point of propitiation is that God's REAL wrath has been removed for those who are united to Christ. The need for wrath-removing reconciliation, and the fact of that reconciliation are both clearly taught in Scripture.
I guess I appreciate the message, but I dont see how this is new or profound? As someone who existed after the resurrection hasnt the underlying theme always been, everyone is accepted, until death, then the white chair does in fact turn on the black chair once and for all? If even after death God chooses to love / save / forgive then that would be pretty fascinating. In the end it still seems that God loves and forgives, until we die then its too late regardless of how you lived your life unless you "ask him into your heart" which has pretty vague details and fine print when we are talking eternity.
Jesus did NOT become "sinful" He was made the sacrifice for sin. "Sinful" refers to acts of sin. There is only ONE Gospel. To negate the blood atonement for Salvation is blasphemy.
This is unbiblical, read Isa 53 God does give Jesus as sacrifice for sin, read Rom 3 it is a legal justification. the problem with this video is not so much what he affirms but what he denies, he denies the means that God is able to forgive us and restore us to himself.
It’s interesting to me that this pastor claims that his definition of the gospel is the more “biblical,” yet he provides no actual Scripture to support this assertion. He also claims that his view is the view of the early church fathers, but doesn’t name any names. He obviously denies the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement. I wonder what he does with verses like 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:24; Isaiah 53:5; Mark 10:45; Romans 8:3; Romans 3:25-26; and 1John 2:2-especially that word “propitiation?” As for his claim that the early fathers did not teach PSA, well, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Athanasius, Augustine, and Tertullian would like a word. So would St. Paul: “…there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from Heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.” ~Gal. 1:7-8
The legal version, legal understanding, misunderstanding, is clearly biblical historical understanding of the gospel, it's called, Penal Substitutionary Atonement, see "pierced for our transgressions rediscovering the glory of Penal Substitution by Steve Jeffery, .. the book which I have clearly shows that what he calls, "modern version" is clearly biblical and historical. All the objections used against the "modern version" have clearly been answered by others including Leon Morris, "The Apostolic Preaching of the Cross. And, The Atonement Its meaning & significance, Brain Zahnd clearly preaches a different gospel, Gal 1:8-9;
Good beginning! But it is yet not all what Gospel says!!! Too much stupid ancient stuff about demons and contemporary "understanding" of that time which is not relevent literally to actual world... And we must still work hard to reenterpret those things according to a true nature of God which is Love! ...but it is still much deeper and complex than it was presented here! Read Nicolas Berdyaev "The destiny of man" on that!
Why can't People say the Gospel is Actually how that Christ died for our sins was buried and Rose again the third day, and that if man dies in his sins he will go to HELL, but that a man or woman must be born again by receiving Jesus Christ as their Saviour for their sins. John 3:36 says that whosever believes in Jesus Chriat has Everlasting life, BUT he thqt beliveth not, shall not see life, but the Wrath of God abideth upon him. Ephesians 2 and ye who where dead in trespasses and sins have been quickened together, how did that happen, easy Ephesians 1:12 -13 Trusted in Jesus Chriat after hearing the Gospel hoe that Christ died for our sins was buried and Rose again the third day, ye believe and are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Why does this patristic so called church father material sound like there's trusting Jesus Christ, no New Birth all you need is Love love love. Very philosophy based approach. Rather than Biblical approach.
A misleading, one-sided presentation. To pretend that propitiation pits the Father against the Son is completely mythological. The orthodox and historical judicial view is indeed that God's wrath is upon sinners - but that in His love He Himself sends the Son to appease that wrath. It would be much better to see that the Bible has complementary expressions of salvation. God is angry with the wicked daily; and the Son comes to seek and save the lost. Divine wrath & love are not incompatible.
Notice how his narrative style choice changes between the two models... thanks for being a salesman... testimonial anecdotes always get 'em don't they? But it was really fun to watch you juggle those chairs! Do you have a website for me to buy those too?
+Nathanael Walsh Comments are more helpful when they have substance, my friend. Do you have a counterpoint to explain what brought you to this conclusion? I presume anyone who watches this is looking for truth, so if there are things here that are untrue, they'd need to be called out specifically rather than just bashed with sarcasm.
@SoBrian4 My heart burns at the falsehood, yes. Now, if you're going to pretend to respond to me, at least read what I said. I EXPLICITLY said that to pit Father against Son is nonsense. This video is targeting, not historic theology, but a caricature. I'll leave it to you to read what the Bible actually says - you can start with Psalm 7.11, and move on to how nicely wrath and gospel complement one another in Romans 1.17-18. The Bible trumps sentiment.
I still don't get the point of the chairs moving around here and there. The idea that their is a generation of actual Christians who really are Christians but who have not understood the Gospel for a much more "ancient" one, is nonsense and fruitless, and downright heretical. We either have believed the Gospel or we have not. There are not two Gospels. Then at the end He starts telling us what he really thinks, and that is the other is NOT the Gospel. So are we saved or do we need saved because we have not believed the true Gospel? He doesn't know (based on the words in this demomstration). There is one Gospel. Christ died for sinners. Not all will be saved, but we are saved by grace through faith not of works. All who believe the Gospel of God's love in this gift of Christ's death burial and resurrection, will be saved. No chair nonsense needed. This demonstration is ultimately just a man trying to appear a lot smarter or knowledgeable than he actually is.
This man has lost understanding of the nature of God. What about the scripture that says that GOD can not look at sin? There are so many other scriptures I can think of! How about Psalm 7:11.? John 3:36.? We need a saviour Church.
+jehovahuponyou Comments are more helpful when they have substance. my friend. Do you have a counterpoint to explain what brought you to this conclusion?
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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have ever lasting life.
Thank you so much for this. I was angry at God for so long that I didn't even realize how bad it was.
I was always taught that I was not good enough for him and then when life and its struggles happened, I felt so far from him and so abandoned. I felt I was just not worthy.
This video has made me see that God never stopped confronting me with his love. He has always shown me his love and found a way for me to go back to him. Even when I was upset and full of hatred, he's always been with me, showing his love through other people, through situations in life, and learning experiences.
I'm truly grateful because now I know the way I experience him and his love has changed but he hasn't, and his love hasn't changed either.
I'm on my face at the goodness of God in this. There is no doubt in my mind that this is true. I have experienced God's relentless love despite sin in my life. And His relentless love has restored me. I no longer desire any of that sin. I feel whole. I am aware of my union with Him. He is so absolutely good. I see this all over scripture and I cannot imagine what people have been taught on how to interpret scripture if anyone finds this heretical.
Chris Pacholl
it says in 1 John 4:8 "For those who do not love, do not know God, for God is love."
Chris, come join us in the Orthodox Church. So many of us former Protestants have found our true home here.
Amen. Well put Brother
God is a good God. Nothing but good. In Him there is no shadow. If only fellow Christians will want to learn and understand this, it will be easy for them to Love the Lord their God with all their Heart, their Soul and their streanght without fighting to stay righteous.
Ooohhhh my heart breaks for them.
We have to pray for our people. We have to pray for Christians.
Please are there any prayer warriors ? To intercede
Pastor Zahnd, This is excellent. Thank you.
th-cam.com/video/WosgwLekgn8/w-d-xo.html
Wow, my spiritual father and confessor is Fr. Anthony Karbo, during our catechism class, he did this talk, and his Triangle talk as well to explain Orthodox spirituality. Fr. Anthony is currently on sabbatical for the rest of the year for health reasons. He could certainly use your prayers. I'm delighted to see his homilies being used outside of the Orthodox Church. If you ever get the chance, to listen to Fr. Anthony tell the story how he developed this homily is hilarious and shows the importance of humility. Thanks again for sharing this one, of many teachings of this Man of God.
This is salvation. This is the light Jesus has been trying to reach us with.
This brings freedom from sin.
This makes my burden light.
I have no reason to be scared.
I have no reason sin.
I can say I am a friend of God.
It makes it easy for me to forgive other.
This is the good news that has power to change. And make new. This is the power! In the word of God.
This is not God using His sovereign power to kill or send sickneses for as punishment. Wait a ninute if He does, then why do we go back to seek for healing? We must as well accept all the wrong that comes upon us.
GOD IS GOOD!
GOD IS GOOD!
I can't keep quite....
GGOD IS GOOD!!!!
Thank you for sharing this, Pastor Brian. I am a bit surprised at all of the upset commenters on this video, but I understand the ancient Christian teaching of salvation greatly conflicts with modern, western theories. For those who want to learn more, I would highly recommend a short but excellent book written by a Christian named Athanasius some 1700 years ago called "On the Incarnation."
so glad to see another Protestant rejecting this horribly wicked doctrine in favor of a more Biblical and patristical understanding of salvation! KUDOS to Pastor Brian!
Oooooo this Message of the gosple is the one we call LIGHT!.
It is an eye opener. Not the one with fear and vindictiveness. Yet the Love is so much that I have no reason in me to strugle with sin.
This is FREEDOM
What the world needs at this very moment. Thank you
This is experientially correct.We come to God.
He forgives our sin.We feel His Wonderful Joyful Love.
Simple.The sin evaporates.
Amen! God bless Pastor Brian and also Steven Robinson and Fr. Anthony Carbo! :)
I grew up with conditional love. Always felt like I had to earn everything, despised myself for not being able to. The most beautiful day was when I found out that I could admit that I'm still a sinner, even after I've "got saved". That salvation is a process, of lifelong hope and trust in Jesus, not just a moment. I'm happy for you that you're not a sinner anymore, and I kinda hope you're wrong about God's wrath being upon sinners, and that He's angry with us, because I'm the worst.
Because of his "anger" towards me I had to give my life to Jesus every night it seemed like. If i didn't ask forgiveness for every little mistake I made I was in big trouble! It took me YEARS as an adult to understand that God is FOR me, even when I was walking apart from him. Is eternity without him real? Yes. Will he judge and punish all sin? Yes. But he is not against me! This is the issue that the protestant version of the gospel brings us to, an angry God that Jesus somehow protects us from
th-cam.com/video/qfwdCN9OcSI/w-d-xo.html&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR0F7sbDSI6pMg-iF-tOAl8fVnNXZIcHY9TK8E0TAU8QC6wkkxNOFH7osHw
God is Good!
Amen!!! Thank-you Brian for awesome message.
This is remarkable!!!
I actually agree with most of what he claims is a truer version of the gospel. My only hesitation would be with the seeming lack of atonement for sin. Brian is right to say that God's main purpose in pursuing humanity is to rescue us from death. But where does death come from? It comes from being separated from God. How are we separated from God? By our sin. So something needs to be done about sin.
In the gospel, God doesn't just sweep our sin under the rug by simply deciding to just forgive and forget because God's immutable righteousness demands that payment be made for sin. That is why God came to earth in the person of Jesus, and died the death we should have died and suffered the wrath that we should have suffered so that our sin past present and future could be dealt with, and in doing so made a way for us to be reconciled to Him.
I happen to have found this comment a year after it was posted, so in case you're still listening... :)
As far as I understand your question, it is this: "Something needs to be done about sin, and in this model sin seems to just be ignored. So what is done about sin in the ancient/eastern tradition?"
The Eastern tradition understands sin in two ways: as a debt against God, and as a marring effect that longterm wrongdoing has had upon our hearts - a marring which makes us evil, which makes other human beings distasteful to us, and which ultimately makes God distasteful to us. The Eastern view of salvation is that God forgives the debt, but that as sinners, we still hate God, and it is Christ's work which corrects this in us - in effect, bringing us back to life.
When the terms are understood in this way, for God to forgive sin (as in, our debt) is not to sweep anything under the rug; something indeed must still be "done" about sin (as in, our marred nature), and this it is which he undertook to do as an incarnate man, both in his life and his death.
Alex Marees the answer to sin is the gift of His Dpirit in us through believing in Jesus for that gift which is love itself for God is love. Love fulfills the righteousness of the law. punishment for sin doesnt bring sin to an end in any way. only God living His life through us is freedom from sin. God said when prophesying the new covenant, But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And again, A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Alex, Your understanding is not correct, and not according to the ancient Church.
You cannot atone for your sin, you cannot earn salvation. You can only accept God's healing love, and try to live it in your life, or refuse it, ignore it, living life according to your own will. God doesn't give us what we "deserve", and we should be thankful he doesn't.
Our role in that is that we need to accept the gift to receive its benefits. It's not just automatically imparted to us.
Absolutely beautiful.
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law BY BECOMING A CURSE FOR US, because it is written: Everyone who is hung on a tree is cursed. Galatians 3:13
Jesus: Feed your enemies. Turn the other cheek. Love your enemies as yourself. Bless those that curse you.
Evangelical’s God: Yeah sorry, I can’t do any of that until I get my rage out.
... and unloving. But the more I understand my sin the more deeply I understand the necessity of believing in a God of wrath. It is truly LOVE that God himself took my wrath. the wrath that I deserve.
Who else is watching this because Mike Parsons recommended
Check out Damon Thompson Ministries.
Is. 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Is 53:4 say we considered it was God, but we are the source of suffering. Is 53:10 says it was God's will not to stop us from causing the suffering.
This is the Orthodox view salvation.
Why do we always have to call it an orthodox few is it a biblical
The ancient faith is not the error. The legalistic, Anselm, John Calvin understanding is what is error.
The Bible: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" And "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed"
The Gospel in chairs:
The Sadducees of the Gospels were people who believed in "sola scriptura" as many modern Protestants. As such, they did not believe in the resurrection. Christ rebukes them and tells them they got it wrong. This is very possible of today as it was during Christ's time.
brb gonna go buy a black folding chair and white folding chair.
This definitely is the more correct understanding of God and His nature towards us. I don't for one second believe Brian is attacking propitiation (he himself says that the legal side of what Christ did is indeed a part of it) or the nature of reconciliation.
What is being attacked imo, and should be attacked, is the incorrect legalism that comes with a "protestant" view of the gospel (I'm pentecostal). The way I grew up knowing God was that he was mad at me at nearly every junction.
Jesus is God
Jesus asks to forgive sinners. But the Protestant doctrine of Martin Luther isn't one of forgiveness. It's of wrath, anger and grudges. God doesn't forgive; he still attacks people. We've just got armor. He doesn't forgive a debt. He just asks for someone else to pay up. He doesn't stop punching. He just asks for someone else to take the beating, because I guess someone has to.
The Orthodox doctrine offers true forgiveness and oneness with God.
He came to my church ealier this year.
I only wish that you had shared that Jesus is like God because Jesus IS God. Otherwise it is good.
TO ALL YOU CRITIC'S: There are to many SUPER spiritual people out there that know everything! Do you know how you can tell the people who know very little, they think they know everything. Some of the comments on here are so goofy, I can imagine what is going on is your heads! God is simple, it takes a super spiritual, religious person to complicate Him.
Joh 14:8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Chris Rosebrough seems solid to me! I've listened to his message, far more scripturally based than anything I've heard coming from the emergent church! But hey, they don't really believe the bible is that authoritative anyway, it's more of optional guide than fundamental teaching right?
Where does believing in Jesus for eternal life (John 3:15-18, 36; 5:24; 6:47, etc), or justification by faith apart from works (Gal 2:16), fit with this?
@shawnlazar5693
I had the very same question(s). The struggle I contended with emanated from +40 years of indoctrination that despite all God/Jesus did for me, it all boiled down to a decision I had to make. Said another way, I had to do "something" in order to receive or trigger my salvation.
For example, say the sinners pray, repent and/or ask Jesus to come into my heart...there was some act or something I was required to "perform" in order to receive His atonement/gift/salvation. And, if I didn't perform this step before I died, I was banished to Hell. Does this sound familiar to anyone reading this post?!
You see, there's nothing I have to do, perform, or even choose in order to receive salvation. In order for me to grasp this, required years of deconstructing my Baptist, Catholic, Word of Faith, Lutheran...all denominational thinking for the "veil over my understanding to be lifted" as Paul talks about in 2 Cor 3:16. In fact, the truth is detailed in the Gospel of John you quoted above:
Notice how often John uses the Greek word egento, from ginomai, meaning birth or origin in the 1st chapter. In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was face to face towards God, and the Word was God. All things came into being (ginomai, from genos...to give birth) through him and nothing has any authentic existence outside of their origin (ginomai) in Him.
1 JN 2:8- And yet it is a glorious new message that I am writing to you. You may ask, how can that which is old, also be new. Herein is the secret of its newness: whatever is true of Jesus is equally true of you!
Jn 3:13, No one can fully engage in heavens perspective, unless one's heavenly origin is realized. The Son of man declares mankind's co-genesis from above!
Lastly, Jn 14:20 Jesus declares the conclusion of his mission wherein in his death and resurrection EVERY possible definition of separation will be canceled! Theres nothing one has to say, do or perform for this to be done jn their life. It already exist. "For in that day, (the day of his death/resurrection) you will have the ability to know what is already true...that we are in seamless union with one another...I am in my Father, you are in me and I am in you.
You see, the incarnation does not divide the Trinity, the incarnation celebrates the redeemed inclusion of humanity. Picture 4 circles with the one fitting into the other. The outer circle is the Father, then Jesus in the Father, then Jesus in the Holy Spirit in us. This displays the inseparable, intimate oneness that has always been.
Knowing" our position in Jesus/Father/Spirit or them in us, doesn't change the fact we (all humanity) have always been face to face with Father. Our knowing, simply "awakens" us to the reality of our redeemed oneness.
In their words, Gold doesn't become gold when it's discovered...but when it's discovered, it certainly becomes priceless currency.
Hope this helps.
In His grip!
Punishment is the appropriate response for the one who is guilty of breaking a certain law. The important element of retributive justice then is that the guilty party and only the guilty part should be punished, and thus it is logically impossible to punish an innocent person. To punish an innocent person contradicts the very definition of the word "punish" in the judicial sense. Thus, the PST is an oxymoron.
These two "gospels" are two sides of the same coin. They are incomplete without the other. The ironic problem of this video is that it was birthed from a misunderstanding of the gospel-a responding to the appearance of a presentation (called here the "judicial gospel") rather than the heart.
I won't respond to every little detail. That would get too long and end up confusing some. But I will give one example: The wrath of Jesus (the one who cannot look upon sin) is displayed in Revelation.
The problem here is not the "judicial gospel". I've met many people who have fallen at the feet of Jesus, weeping in JOY at the presentation of the "judicial gospel", and who dance in the knowledge of his compassions! It is NOT devoid the expression of his tender, pursuant delight.
The problem is that man looks at the outward appearance of words, while God looks at the heart.
In conclusion -
This video conveys much truth, and for that I rejoice! See the comments: so many people are overjoyed by God's delight in them!! I am glad at that. But I'm not glad ends with the lie in this video. God has wrath and is holy and cannot look upon sin; and JESUS will slaughter his enemies at his 2nd coming; and the love of God cannot be fully known without knowing the dread of him in truth for what we have done against him. But praise be to Jesus, HE IS MERCIFUL!! ...and his compassions are new every morning.
(P.S. - I have wept in bed as he loved the pain out of me. None of what I've said is from mere theory; I have experienced it personally.)
Did you mean wrath of God not wrath of Jesus? Cause I could not find it that way. I don’t see Jesus wrath in the Gospels either I do find him fellowship, eat and even touch sinners there as well. I know some may say Jesus is God and God is Jesus. But I see God is spirit and Jesus was flesh (sarx). He is our (humanity) representative. To show us how to talk to and fellowship with the Father, Our Father whose wrath is used as a furnace of refining fire to burn out everything that separates us from seeing and responding to the way the Trinity fellowships with each other and us.
Amazing video. Well done. See also it on TH-cam in an Orthodox settings (love wins - an orthodox view is the title).
My hope is that love will help unite Christians.
if you commit a crime do you believe that you can have someone else take the punishment for you then? if someone came into a courtroom when the judge sentences you to death by electric chair for murder and says" i will take the chair for Chris!" would a fair judge say ok?
Nice!
You missed the point......God is like Jesus. Jesus said, if you have seen me you have seen the Father. Brian Zahnd knows Jesus is God and so do we but the point is if you what to look at the character of God you must look at Jesus. So God is like Jesus!
Part that seems to me to be missing, is that mankind must personally accept the gift of salvation God provided with the gift of his sons crucifixion's and resurrections. It's a free gift to all, but each individual needs to accept the fact they are sinners and that they accept the Gods gift of salvation from the penalty of our sins.
Soooo... Am I to understand that there is no need for atonement according to this understanding of salvation?
@TimAGallant Doesn't your heart burn when you hear the truth of what Brian's saying here? Please at least give it a chance! If God's wrath is upon sinners indeed, and angry with them, then why does Jesus (God in human flesh) ask that He forgive the perpetrators of the crime of killing the Perfect One? The worst crime possible, met with forgiveness. Do you believe that Jesus and the Father are different, that they disagree? That God is not one with His Son?
even though you repeat "ancient, patristic and more biblical gospel" like 10 times doesnt make it true, seems harmless but heresies tend to be like that. I wonder what you do with Romans, Isaiah 53:10.
Habakkuk 1:13 was a prophet questioning God, not a statement from God. Christ being God looked upon sin many times. Psalm 7:11, Although God may well be angry with the wicked every day, he still loves us sinners. 1 Cor 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." This is the problem with "sola scriptura" you can find verses to back up any claim.
The Old Testament also makes numerous statements that God greatly dislikes human sacrifice, a practiced by non-Jews to appease their gods However, God did command Abraham to kill his own son Isaac in Genesis 22, however God at the last moment stops the sacrifice and was satisfied with Abraham's obedience. This very fact, carried to its logical conclusion, would eliminate the necessity of the sacrifice death of Christ. It eliminates the atonement and thus over turns the whole Christian Gospel.
Oh, that God of ours. Ever the hypocrite!
where can i get a copy of this vid?
Any thoughts on this guy (Chris Rosebrough) with Pirate Christian Radio calling Brian a heretic; who is in danger of damning himself and others with this false gospel?
I dont rightly understand how you can take this, even nod to patristic and apostalic truth, and stay with going your own way? Its like getting back to the basics, but sitting in the class for the intro and going "awesome, thanks, now i know!" then stand up and walk out.
LOL... it reminds me of a shell game... not showing you the FULL story. We only get cheated by this guys slide of hand. :-)
Christus Victor!
@TimAGallant sorry, I forgot to tag you in the response, but I'm sure you'll see it. :)
Watched the video. I have to appreciate the heart that seeks to keep the church pure and free of bad doctrine but you arguments are all based off systemic interpretations of the verses you quote. Brian Zahnd and this restorative view simply offers a different system to reconcile contradictory verses in the Bible. You don't prove much in your video and the points you make have all been made before. Maranatha!
So many misunderstandings on the restorative view (which by the way is the Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic and Oriental view):
1) Q. *So there is no need for atonement?* Yes atonement is necessary even in the restorative view; God changes the nature of the person being restored (2 Cor 5:16-18).
2) Q. *So there is no hell?* Yes there still is hell and it is permanent. Those who die hating God will forever hate him and his love be like hot coals on their head.
3) Recall God is not a complex substance (20% mercy, 30% wrath, 45% holy) rather he is a single substance only (Love). His mercy, justice and holiness flow from his love they are derivative elements. He has mercy because he loves you. He has justice because he loves you. He is Holy (that is doesn't sin) because he loves you.
4) Q. *Isn't this heretical* If his is heretical then EVERY single church in the first 1000 years of Christianity got it wrong and was in heresy. Recall religions are passed down one generation to the next. How is it that every single Christian writer (bishops, priests and letters galore from 80 A.D on word) that we have access to got it wrong? If penal substitution was the prevailing view communicated by the twelve and Paul, how was it that no one thought to remember what they taught?
5) Q. *So where does penal substitution come from?* St. Anselm in the 11th century, writing in feudalistic culture, shifts the focus on the honor of God. "The honour taken away must be repaid, or punishment must follow" (Cur Deus Homo ch 8) and later is recorded as saying "the honour of god is injured by the withdrawal of man's service which he is due to offer."
St. Anslem did not formulate this system into penal substitution however, he just shifted focus to a system which focus on the honor injured by God. It was not until the reformation, that Luther, who had read Anslem and developed his ideas around Anslem's idea of injury of honor that this penal system actually gets developed. Calvin comes along, and changes much of the terms from honor and injury into court and criminal terms because he was a lawyer by trade.
Evil cannot be eternal, it would mean that Good has not fully conquered evil if it still exists.
Hell is evil in itself.
So it cannot last eternally.
It is a mystery, but was the major point Origen addressed in his inquiry. Questions like this one must be left antinomical in theology. Otherwise, we either fall into a heresy, or then adjust reality to our sinful two-dimensional time-space limited way of thinking, for only a sinner can wish for suffering to exist eternally.
@@Soundofmusic777 Hell is not evil itself. Hell is the natural consequence of those who will not love God. The evil comes from the individuals, not from God. God will not destroy those, because in his Love he allows them to do as they please. Recall Love is doing what is in the best interest of the other AS OTHER. Since the damned do not want to Love God, God doesn't force himself on them. God does not rape.
This makes us feel really good, but it's not quite as Biblical as he makes it out to be. This pastor says that "God never turns away from humanity", but in Ezekiel 7:22 we read that God clearly says "I will turn my face away from them". YHWH will not force His presence on those who clearly reject Him. If a person wants nothing to do with Him and turns His back on YHWH, then YHWH will respect them and turn from them. He will not shine His face (His presence) on those who choose to live in darkness (see Ezekiel 39:23-24). God reads the heart and He knows who those people are. All the examples that this pastor gives are people who are open to hearing the word... Yes, Jesus seeks people out and faces them... even those who clearly reject him, like the Pharisees, but He will not force His presence on those who want nothing to do with Him. That is why we get verses like this: "I will scatter them before the enemy like the east wind. I will show them My back and not My face in the day of their calamity." (Jeremiah 18:17). The beauty is that those who have clearly, and vehemently, rejected God, still have the opportunity to shuv (turn back). God is forgiving and always open to turning back around and facing them if, at any point in their lives, they call on Him. “Return to Me, and I will return to you,” said YHWH (Malachi 3:7). The sentiment of this message is good. Jesus is the pure reflection of who God is; He is exactly what God looks like! God/Jesus seeks us out and faces us at every turn! But even more profound, is that if we reject Him but change our minds and call on Him, He will turn back to us and come running... It is our decision. He forces nothing upon us... and that's the beauty of our God.
What's your denomination?
You can say it is more biblical, but saying so doesn't make it so. Also, this IS NOT the universal voice of the ancient fathers of the church. To say it is as Brian has said here is to play fast and loose with the historical record.
@SoBrian4 I'm sorry that you grew up with a perversion, but the solution is not error in the other direction. The point of propitiation is that God's REAL wrath has been removed for those who are united to Christ. The need for wrath-removing reconciliation, and the fact of that reconciliation are both clearly taught in Scripture.
Put those chairs away,man.read your Bible. There is only ONE gospel. Tell me the old old story.
@SityAnalytics
I guess I appreciate the message, but I dont see how this is new or profound? As someone who existed after the resurrection hasnt the underlying theme always been, everyone is accepted, until death, then the white chair does in fact turn on the black chair once and for all? If even after death God chooses to love / save / forgive then that would be pretty fascinating. In the end it still seems that God loves and forgives, until we die then its too late regardless of how you lived your life unless you "ask him into your heart" which has pretty vague details and fine print when we are talking eternity.
Wait a minute. What about'It pleased The Lord to bruise him " in Isaiah ????????? Jesus is the Redeemer. Where are you going ,Man??????
Jesus did NOT become "sinful" He was made the sacrifice for sin. "Sinful" refers to acts of sin. There is only ONE Gospel. To negate the blood atonement for Salvation is blasphemy.
I think he meant "became sin" for us.
This is unbiblical, read Isa 53 God does give Jesus as sacrifice for sin, read Rom 3 it is a legal justification. the problem with this video is not so much what he affirms but what he denies, he denies the means that God is able to forgive us and restore us to himself.
It’s interesting to me that this pastor claims that his definition of the gospel is the more “biblical,” yet he provides no actual Scripture to support this assertion. He also claims that his view is the view of the early church fathers, but doesn’t name any names. He obviously denies the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement. I wonder what he does with verses like 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:24; Isaiah 53:5; Mark 10:45; Romans 8:3; Romans 3:25-26; and 1John 2:2-especially that word “propitiation?” As for his claim that the early fathers did not teach PSA, well, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Athanasius, Augustine, and Tertullian would like a word. So would St. Paul: “…there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from Heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.” ~Gal. 1:7-8
The legal version, legal understanding, misunderstanding, is clearly biblical historical understanding of the gospel, it's called, Penal Substitutionary Atonement, see "pierced for our transgressions rediscovering the glory of Penal Substitution by Steve Jeffery, .. the book which I have clearly shows that what he calls, "modern version" is clearly biblical and historical. All the objections used against the "modern version" have clearly been answered by others including Leon Morris, "The Apostolic Preaching of the Cross. And, The Atonement Its meaning & significance, Brain Zahnd clearly preaches a different gospel, Gal 1:8-9;
Psa is also a man made theory. A way of explaining. To appease an angry God. Please be kind. I used to believe psa as well. Growth happens my friend
Good beginning! But it is yet not all what Gospel says!!! Too much stupid ancient stuff about demons and contemporary "understanding" of that time which is not relevent literally to actual world... And we must still work hard to reenterpret those things according to a true nature of God which is Love! ...but it is still much deeper and complex than it was presented here! Read Nicolas Berdyaev "The destiny of man" on that!
Why can't People say the Gospel is Actually how that Christ died for our sins was buried and Rose again the third day, and that if man dies in his sins he will go to HELL, but that a man or woman must be born again by receiving Jesus Christ as their Saviour for their sins. John 3:36 says that whosever believes in Jesus Chriat has Everlasting life, BUT he thqt beliveth not, shall not see life, but the Wrath of God abideth upon him. Ephesians 2 and ye who where dead in trespasses and sins have been quickened together, how did that happen, easy Ephesians 1:12 -13 Trusted in Jesus Chriat after hearing the Gospel hoe that Christ died for our sins was buried and Rose again the third day, ye believe and are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Why does this patristic so called church father material sound like there's trusting Jesus Christ, no New Birth all you need is Love love love. Very philosophy based approach. Rather than Biblical approach.
Did we watch the same video?
The claim that his false gospel is more ancient and patristic is garbage.
A misleading, one-sided presentation. To pretend that propitiation pits the Father against the Son is completely mythological. The orthodox and historical judicial view is indeed that God's wrath is upon sinners - but that in His love He Himself sends the Son to appease that wrath.
It would be much better to see that the Bible has complementary expressions of salvation. God is angry with the wicked daily; and the Son comes to seek and save the lost. Divine wrath & love are not incompatible.
Yes they are.
Notice how his narrative style choice changes between the two models... thanks for being a salesman... testimonial anecdotes always get 'em don't they?
But it was really fun to watch you juggle those chairs! Do you have a website for me to buy those too?
+Nathanael Walsh Comments are more helpful when they have substance, my friend. Do you have a counterpoint to explain what brought you to this conclusion? I presume anyone who watches this is looking for truth, so if there are things here that are untrue, they'd need to be called out specifically rather than just bashed with sarcasm.
If you accept the teachings of the Church why not join Her?
The heretic speaks from what is in his heart. The wrath of God is upon him.
@SoBrian4 My heart burns at the falsehood, yes. Now, if you're going to pretend to respond to me, at least read what I said. I EXPLICITLY said that to pit Father against Son is nonsense. This video is targeting, not historic theology, but a caricature. I'll leave it to you to read what the Bible actually says - you can start with Psalm 7.11, and move on to how nicely wrath and gospel complement one another in Romans 1.17-18. The Bible trumps sentiment.
This video is so wrong! It's not based on scripture but modern thinking! True heresy as ever coming from the emergent church!
Appalling theology, appallingly sexist.
Sexist? Wha???
Sexist?
I still don't get the point of the chairs moving around here and there. The idea that their is a generation of actual Christians who really are Christians but who have not understood the Gospel for a much more "ancient" one, is nonsense and fruitless, and downright heretical. We either have believed the Gospel or we have not. There are not two Gospels. Then at the end He starts telling us what he really thinks, and that is the other is NOT the Gospel. So are we saved or do we need saved because we have not believed the true Gospel? He doesn't know (based on the words in this demomstration).
There is one Gospel. Christ died for sinners. Not all will be saved, but we are saved by grace through faith not of works. All who believe the Gospel of God's love in this gift of Christ's death burial and resurrection, will be saved. No chair nonsense needed. This demonstration is ultimately just a man trying to appear a lot smarter or knowledgeable than he actually is.
This is heresy
This man has lost understanding of the nature of God. What about the scripture that says that GOD can not look at sin? There are so many other scriptures I can think of! How about Psalm 7:11.? John 3:36.? We need a saviour Church.
WOW! THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY STUPID.
+jehovahuponyou Comments are more helpful when they have substance. my friend. Do you have a counterpoint to explain what brought you to this conclusion?
jehovahuponyou not as stupid as your comment.
+ROY SUCKEROFCOCK
IF I A DOG AS UGLY AS YOU, I'D SHAVE HIS ASS AND MAKE HIM WALK BACKWARD.
+AAROON BUMPIT
I THINK YOU SPOKE OUT OF IGNORANCE, ELSE I WOULD SAY SOMETHING VILE TO YOU, REAL VILE!