Welp, just what I needed. Another old vehicle rescue channel. Good because I'm retired and I'm not going to get another thing done till I binge out on the L-122 series rescue. Grandpa had a 1939 IH 2 ton that I learned to drive on in the hay fields of Arkansas. He also had a 1947 IH pickup with a wooden flatbed. Nobody dove that pickup except him! So, yeah, I got a big old soft spot for the binders. Of course all 4 of his tractors were IH Farmalls.
Been working on junk since I was 13 and Been a mechanic to trade for almost 18 years.. but I've never seen a more mental axle setup in my life! Whoever came up with that was really having some "blue sky thinking" Absolutely ingenious, but man I'm not surprised whoever was in there previously didn't have a clue and unfortunately m3ssed everything up on the one side
I just find these old heavy duty technologies so interesting. Thank you for showing the process in detail. And please share where you have seals made. I can see where that may come in very handy in the future. Thank you.
I know this a year later, (I just found these vids) but damn that had to be hell to service out in the field! Probably one of the reasons so few survived. Yet THANK YOU for posting these!! Very intriguing set-up that only shows how creative our forefathers were; my loose bet is that whoever designed it came from the mechanical side of shipbuilding, or early cranes maybe. Gotta give 'em credit, look how well, yet relatively simple it is.
I'm new to your channel but can't say enough about the knowledge and ability that is being seen in your videos, how you came about it . . . that question is likely getting answers in the videos I still have not checked out because you mentioned in this segment where a lot of information about the clamps and wheels was found as well as this was not your first Coleman axle. . . it is fascinating and enjoyable, your narrative is definitely a "value added" element (you do not talk too much by the way) and you are 2nd to none in the way you are able to demonstrate and communicate "How" it's done without neglecting "what, when, where, and why's" that apply. Don't change a thing!
It is so cool tearing down old stuff like this and learning about it. Very very cool. "Turn on notifications.....I don't even know what that means". 🤣 Your face when you said that was hilarious.
I'm new to your channel and I found it through IC Weld. This Coleman axle is very interesting and the first time I've seen one. One thing hit me when you were showing the outer cover, because I think I've seen that before on other International trucks. Here in Florida back in the late 60's, early 70's our Power Company, Florida Power, used International Harvester trucks. I would say they were a 2 - 2 /12 ton truck and they were all 4 wheel drive. They were the bucket trucks the linemen used on power lines and to set power poles. They all that that big center cover in the center of the front wheel. I'm now wondering if they were Coleman conversion axles? Speaking with a friend a couple years ago, he was in the market for a bucket truck, he mentioned that International was the only truck company that currently produced it's own 4 wheel drive trucks or were converted in house. all other makes were sent out for a conversion I sent you a photo of a Florida Power truck from 1973.
Hey, these are actually factory-installed Coleman axles that IH put in on their assembly lines. There’s also some historical drama with the Coleman Co. Vs Howe bros. I’ll try to respond more in depth tomorrow- in the middle of doing final touches to my IH Coleman tonight before the cross-country trip!
Awesome video! My Dad would have loved your videos. He was the mechanic at my grandfather's IH dealership in the 40s and 50s. He would talk about how the steering worked on these rigs but I never had the full picture in my mind until now. He's been gone since 04, but memories our time wrenching together sure makes me appreciate the time we had together. I really appreciate you sharing your work on these old Internationals.
Thank you! It’s a bizarre design by today’s standards, but makes perfect sense once you get it apart. I wish I had a group of old timers who knew the ins and outs of these helping me with this one!
It’s pretty ingenious and the point of traction never leaves the center of gravity. Dana or Eaton-style knuckles shift slightly off kilter whenever you turn the wheels.
can you post a video of this with the drum removed & the hub spinning, while turning the steering b&f? it seems very strong, but that design wasn't adopted...maybe because complete disassembly is required to make any adjustments to SAI...maybe? how do you align it? where else has that design been used?
I personally don't own an International Harvester yet, however I enjoy the history & knowledge you share in these videos. I also appreciate you being in front of the camera or narrating the last few videos instead of the subtitles. Lastly we have talked a few times on Instagram via messages. I appreciate you taking the time out of your day & answering questions I have asked & just talking in general. Keep up the great work. P.S. You should put that saying on a shirt "Anything worth doing is worth overdoing."
I highly doubt that your Coleman fda had rubber seals, probably oiled felt like my 51 had/has. I'm referring to the outer hub bearing cap and the inboard seal area where the hub seals to the spindle. Also check inside the spindle where it pivots on the end of the stub. Mine has/had vertical felt seals sealing that area as well. You probably won't see them until you get it cleaned up. My manual states oiled felt as well, I forget the year of publication but I don't want you to think I'm making that up. I sourced mine from McMaster Carr, they also carry a bunch of Oilite bushings. I've heard said the felt seals are suppose to be installed dry and "soak up" any leakage but this is false based on the manual. I was amazed how easily yours came apart. It took me days to just get the pipe plugs out of the hub, one had to be drilled. I found my power yoke pins to be threaded the same as a grease zerk. I forget the size but that's what I used to make my puller. Those also took days/weeks. I suspect the longer wedge bolt is the odd ball. As the spindle bearings wear the wedge has to be driven in further to set the preload. At some point the bolt is to short and longer jimmy rigged things got used. Per the manual the bolt is not the wedge driver, it is the wedge keeper if I recall. Use a punch to drive the wedge to the desired preload, install the bolt to keep it from backing off. I believe the studs in the outer bearing cap retainer are correct, the bolt was the odd ball. Mine had nylok nuts securing the cap. My axle bolts securing the shaft to the power yoke had drilled heads and safety wire securing them. I'm sure you noticed your brake drum bolts securing it to the hub should also have safety wire on them as well. Hope this is helpful. On a side note, when I ordered my felt I measured the width and depth of the groove, then ordered slightly taller felt so it would "stand proud" and actually seal. And I'm glad our friend Stu got ahold of you, his wheel knowledge is that of legend!
Ahh, I was getting my info from the MM Coleman axle seals, but those are a later version. They do seem like they could be felt! The other felts I have to replace are the spindle side wipers- the one part I forgot to mention! Did you have to cut your own felts from a sheet or did McMaster Carr have them in the rings? I wonder if any of the parts between our two Coleman FDAs are shared. Like the Power Yolk pins, etc. and if you replaced those Oilite bushings, I wonder if the measurements are the same.
@@BareKnuckleBinder That felt is 70 years old, oil and grease soaked, dried out junk. It's hard to believe it was felt at one point but I assure you it was. You won't find a felt ring. I ordered it by width/height then length if i recall. I forget the dimensions. Maybe 1/8th wide x 1/2 tall, 5 ft long. You get the idea. McMaster Carr has you covered on felt. Easy website. You can get into the weeds with felt in a mechanical application. You'll have to read the descriptions. High speed, high pressure, food grade etc. You'll be shocked. I forget what I ordered but it checked all the boxes, not for your partners craft project, it opened my eyes. I put the felt seam at the top to minimize leakage/infiltration. Start at 12 o'clock, go around forcing it in the grove, end at 12 o'clock. Seam at the top, oil and install the hub. Same with the outer wheel bearing cap. You didn't mention it but those brass shims are to set the wheel bearing load. Zero shims and it's as tight as it can get. Multiple shims and the outer cap stays away from the hub reducing the "pinch" on the wheels bearings. I would bet ours have no parts in common. My Coleman hub assembly is far bigger in every way. In Ford Coleman world my F4 1 ton uses the same parts that a similar Ford F7 would use. 8 bolt stub to axle flange, 8 bolt bearing retainer cap, 8 bolts holding the axle to the power yoke iirc. Mine was in FAR worse shape than yours. I literally interviewed machine shops to find the type of craftsman needed for my repairs. Both yokes and rings had to be reworked, the pin holes were egged out from years of driving with pin slop. All new bushings sourced from the machine shop and honed to size. 8 new pins were made from some crazy hard solid stock bar etc. I laughed when you said your wheel bearings were $700. It took me 2 years to find mine and they came from China. Timken bearings straight from China but this is your show and that's a long story. I would have been dancing with $700 bearings! In short, mine is better than new imho and if you can't find a source for something please let me know, maybe I can help.
That part about the oil seals and the collars on the shafts was interesting! Any chance the seals were supposed to be driven further into the axle housing extensions so the seals would run on the collars? I had a '72 CJ5 with the enclosed axle joints and the oil in the knuckle housings - but I could never understand what was supposed to keep the gear oil from migrating around the stub shaft and watering down the grease on the spindle bearings. I think it was a design flaw. Didn't seem to hurt anything, but it just didn't seem right. Great video - thank you for the effort!
I always wanted to start a YT channel, cause we are always working on crazy stuff. But since I work for the government, it's obviously not allowed(that's my guess anyways, not gonna test it)and if it was, keeping anonymity would be paramount and also impossible.
Can anyone confirm that these Howe-Coleman axles had pretty limited steering angles? We have a fire truck with one and it has been limited to roughly require two football fields to turn around... Thinking about pulling the limiters out of the steering ram and seeing what happens...
Well, I figured if it was then maybe somebody. Maybe they should have a place to take old internationals and internationals beside the rigs. Do the pick up some stuff and just have a modification. Please dare Hey, do we do something you know for that? You're truck and other people have older than nationals
First time watcher. Good video! Didn't know axles were designed like this. Incredibly complicated design compared to the axle work I've done! Just out of curiosity, what watch is that? Looks decent. Cheers from Canada
I sent Mr r140 an add for a Ford Coleman truck that was for sale since he said you guys were looking for parts or references. But he never responded back do you want to to send it to you to see if it's of any help?
Sorry if I missed your message. Can you resend it, or tell me how you sent it so I can find it? Didn’t mean to offend and I’m definitely interested. Thanks.
Would love to see the ad. I know a lot of folks have been having trouble leaving comment responses on here. May be easiest to message it to me on Instagram @bareknucklebinder.
@@BareKnuckleBinder - So, I’m learning about the Coleman conversion: I see those big dome cap covers. Do the rear axles also have the same dome cap covers. I’m just trying to get a completed picture in my brain.
@@integrityrentalproperties9173 the actual Coleman trucks had dome covers front and back, I’ve only seen a Coleman conversion with domes front and back for a promo photo.
i never saw one of these. they look wild.
I have a R 140 series 4x4 and you give me much confidence that i can get this on the road again.
Thank you
Yesss! That’s a rad truck, I’d love to see some pics.
Welp, just what I needed. Another old vehicle rescue channel. Good because I'm retired and I'm not going to get another thing done till I binge out on the L-122 series rescue. Grandpa had a 1939 IH 2 ton that I learned to drive on in the hay fields of Arkansas. He also had a 1947 IH pickup with a wooden flatbed. Nobody dove that pickup except him! So, yeah, I got a big old soft spot for the binders. Of course all 4 of his tractors were IH Farmalls.
That is the most unusual unit I have ever seen. The way it is constructed is like a swiss watch. It does have some honkin wheel bearings.
@@johnnyholland8765 yes sir and those bearings are EXPENSIVE!
Been working on junk since I was 13 and Been a mechanic to trade for almost 18 years.. but I've never seen a more mental axle setup in my life! Whoever came up with that was really having some "blue sky thinking"
Absolutely ingenious, but man I'm not surprised whoever was in there previously didn't have a clue and unfortunately m3ssed everything up on the one side
P.s.
Had to subscribe! Love this kind of stuff
Backyard Alaskan sent me
I just find these old heavy duty technologies so interesting. Thank you for showing the process in detail. And please share where you have seals made. I can see where that may come in very handy in the future.
Thank you.
Pretty neat I found you from watching IC Weld page where he's fixing the wheels never knew the International ever has these
I know this a year later, (I just found these vids) but damn that had to be hell to service out in the field! Probably one of the reasons so few survived.
Yet THANK YOU for posting these!! Very intriguing set-up that only shows how creative our forefathers were; my loose bet is that whoever designed it came from the mechanical side of shipbuilding, or early cranes maybe.
Gotta give 'em credit, look how well, yet relatively simple it is.
I'm new to your channel but can't say enough about the knowledge and ability that is being seen in your videos, how you came about it . . . that question is likely getting answers in the videos I still have not checked out because you mentioned in this segment where a lot of information about the clamps and wheels was found as well as this was not your first Coleman axle. . . it is fascinating and enjoyable, your narrative is definitely a "value added" element (you do not talk too much by the way) and you are 2nd to none in the way you are able to demonstrate and communicate "How" it's done without neglecting "what, when, where, and why's" that apply. Don't change a thing!
I'm here from I C Weld :)
It is so cool tearing down old stuff like this and learning about it. Very very cool.
"Turn on notifications.....I don't even know what that means". 🤣 Your face when you said that was hilarious.
Great video and so pleased to see someone bringing these old machines back into action. I just love the old trucks!
I'm new to your channel and I found it through IC Weld. This Coleman axle is very interesting and the first time I've seen one. One thing hit me when you were showing the outer cover, because I think I've seen that before on other International trucks.
Here in Florida back in the late 60's, early 70's our Power Company, Florida Power, used International Harvester trucks. I would say they were a 2 - 2 /12 ton truck and they were all 4 wheel drive.
They were the bucket trucks the linemen used on power lines and to set power poles. They all that that big center cover in the center of the front wheel. I'm now wondering if they were Coleman conversion axles?
Speaking with a friend a couple years ago, he was in the market for a bucket truck, he mentioned that International was the only truck company that currently produced it's own 4 wheel drive trucks or were converted in house. all other makes were sent out for a conversion
I sent you a photo of a Florida Power truck from 1973.
Hey, these are actually factory-installed Coleman axles that IH put in on their assembly lines. There’s also some historical drama with the Coleman Co. Vs Howe bros. I’ll try to respond more in depth tomorrow- in the middle of doing final touches to my IH Coleman tonight before the cross-country trip!
Fantastic project to follow thanks for sharing 🦘👍
Awesome video! My Dad would have loved your videos. He was the mechanic at my grandfather's IH dealership in the 40s and 50s. He would talk about how the steering worked on these rigs but I never had the full picture in my mind until now. He's been gone since 04, but memories our time wrenching together sure makes me appreciate the time we had together. I really appreciate you sharing your work on these old Internationals.
Thank you! It’s a bizarre design by today’s standards, but makes perfect sense once you get it apart. I wish I had a group of old timers who knew the ins and outs of these helping me with this one!
I like the engineering Coleman did on the axle to get it to steer.
It’s pretty ingenious and the point of traction never leaves the center of gravity. Dana or Eaton-style knuckles shift slightly off kilter whenever you turn the wheels.
Great video! This is really fascinating to watch - thanks for sharing!
can you post a video of this with the drum removed & the hub spinning, while turning the steering b&f?
it seems very strong, but that design wasn't adopted...maybe because complete disassembly is required to make any adjustments to SAI...maybe?
how do you align it?
where else has that design been used?
I personally don't own an International Harvester yet, however I enjoy the history & knowledge you share in these videos. I also appreciate you being in front of the camera or narrating the last few videos instead of the subtitles. Lastly we have talked a few times on Instagram via messages. I appreciate you taking the time out of your day & answering questions I have asked & just talking in general. Keep up the great work. P.S. You should put that saying on a shirt "Anything worth doing is worth overdoing."
Hey! Thanks for the kind words and glad you enjoy what I’m doing! Also, that shirt idea is in the works!
Great video as always! Can't wait to see the next one!
I highly doubt that your Coleman fda had rubber seals, probably oiled felt like my 51 had/has. I'm referring to the outer hub bearing cap and the inboard seal area where the hub seals to the spindle. Also check inside the spindle where it pivots on the end of the stub. Mine has/had vertical felt seals sealing that area as well. You probably won't see them until you get it cleaned up. My manual states oiled felt as well, I forget the year of publication but I don't want you to think I'm making that up. I sourced mine from McMaster Carr, they also carry a bunch of Oilite bushings. I've heard said the felt seals are suppose to be installed dry and "soak up" any leakage but this is false based on the manual. I was amazed how easily yours came apart. It took me days to just get the pipe plugs out of the hub, one had to be drilled. I found my power yoke pins to be threaded the same as a grease zerk. I forget the size but that's what I used to make my puller. Those also took days/weeks. I suspect the longer wedge bolt is the odd ball. As the spindle bearings wear the wedge has to be driven in further to set the preload. At some point the bolt is to short and longer jimmy rigged things got used. Per the manual the bolt is not the wedge driver, it is the wedge keeper if I recall. Use a punch to drive the wedge to the desired preload, install the bolt to keep it from backing off. I believe the studs in the outer bearing cap retainer are correct, the bolt was the odd ball. Mine had nylok nuts securing the cap. My axle bolts securing the shaft to the power yoke had drilled heads and safety wire securing them. I'm sure you noticed your brake drum bolts securing it to the hub should also have safety wire on them as well. Hope this is helpful. On a side note, when I ordered my felt I measured the width and depth of the groove, then ordered slightly taller felt so it would "stand proud" and actually seal. And I'm glad our friend Stu got ahold of you, his wheel knowledge is that of legend!
Ahh, I was getting my info from the MM Coleman axle seals, but those are a later version. They do seem like they could be felt! The other felts I have to replace are the spindle side wipers- the one part I forgot to mention! Did you have to cut your own felts from a sheet or did McMaster Carr have them in the rings?
I wonder if any of the parts between our two Coleman FDAs are shared. Like the Power Yolk pins, etc. and if you replaced those Oilite bushings, I wonder if the measurements are the same.
@@BareKnuckleBinder That felt is 70 years old, oil and grease soaked, dried out junk. It's hard to believe it was felt at one point but I assure you it was. You won't find a felt ring. I ordered it by width/height then length if i recall. I forget the dimensions. Maybe 1/8th wide x 1/2 tall, 5 ft long. You get the idea. McMaster Carr has you covered on felt. Easy website. You can get into the weeds with felt in a mechanical application. You'll have to read the descriptions. High speed, high pressure, food grade etc. You'll be shocked. I forget what I ordered but it checked all the boxes, not for your partners craft project, it opened my eyes. I put the felt seam at the top to minimize leakage/infiltration. Start at 12 o'clock, go around forcing it in the grove, end at 12 o'clock. Seam at the top, oil and install the hub. Same with the outer wheel bearing cap. You didn't mention it but those brass shims are to set the wheel bearing load. Zero shims and it's as tight as it can get. Multiple shims and the outer cap stays away from the hub reducing the "pinch" on the wheels bearings. I would bet ours have no parts in common. My Coleman hub assembly is far bigger in every way. In Ford Coleman world my F4 1 ton uses the same parts that a similar Ford F7 would use. 8 bolt stub to axle flange, 8 bolt bearing retainer cap, 8 bolts holding the axle to the power yoke iirc. Mine was in FAR worse shape than yours. I literally interviewed machine shops to find the type of craftsman needed for my repairs. Both yokes and rings had to be reworked, the pin holes were egged out from years of driving with pin slop. All new bushings sourced from the machine shop and honed to size. 8 new pins were made from some crazy hard solid stock bar etc. I laughed when you said your wheel bearings were $700. It took me 2 years to find mine and they came from China. Timken bearings straight from China but this is your show and that's a long story. I would have been dancing with $700 bearings! In short, mine is better than new imho and if you can't find a source for something please let me know, maybe I can help.
interesting.
That part about the oil seals and the collars on the shafts was interesting! Any chance the seals were supposed to be driven further into the axle housing extensions so the seals would run on the collars? I had a '72 CJ5 with the enclosed axle joints and the oil in the knuckle housings - but I could never understand what was supposed to keep the gear oil from migrating around the stub shaft and watering down the grease on the spindle bearings. I think it was a design flaw. Didn't seem to hurt anything, but it just didn't seem right. Great video - thank you for the effort!
Wow. I'm not sure if the engineers that came up with this should be commended or committed.
I always wanted to start a YT channel, cause we are always working on crazy stuff. But since I work for the government, it's obviously not allowed(that's my guess anyways, not gonna test it)and if it was, keeping anonymity would be paramount and also impossible.
Awesome project! If you have any issues trying to get pins or bushings machined locally let me know. I might be able to help👍🏻
I definitely will! Thanks!
Can anyone confirm that these Howe-Coleman axles had pretty limited steering angles? We have a fire truck with one and it has been limited to roughly require two football fields to turn around... Thinking about pulling the limiters out of the steering ram and seeing what happens...
I can verify that the Coleman axle isn't the tightest turner.
Well, I figured if it was then maybe somebody. Maybe they should have a place to take old internationals and internationals beside the rigs. Do the pick up some stuff and just have a modification. Please dare Hey, do we do something you know for that? You're truck and other people have older than nationals
Have you ever forgotten how they go back together!? I bet that is why you started filming!! 😝
That’s when I get out the bigger hammers!
First time watcher. Good video! Didn't know axles were designed like this. Incredibly complicated design compared to the axle work I've done! Just out of curiosity, what watch is that? Looks decent. Cheers from Canada
Says Timex Expedition on it. Works pretty good, but I burned the face of it a bit with welding spatter yesterday. 🤷🏻♂️
I sent Mr r140 an add for a Ford Coleman truck that was for sale since he said you guys were looking for parts or references. But he never responded back do you want to to send it to you to see if it's of any help?
I'd have interest in that add?
Sorry if I missed your message. Can you resend it, or tell me how you sent it so I can find it? Didn’t mean to offend and I’m definitely interested. Thanks.
Would love to see the ad. I know a lot of folks have been having trouble leaving comment responses on here. May be easiest to message it to me on Instagram @bareknucklebinder.
@@BareKnuckleBinder yeah I've messaged you on Instagram before I'll try to see if I can find it. The link that I sent to r140 went dead
A lot to disassemble to do a brake job!
No kidding!
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is this the front axle or the rear?
Not a bad question at all, this is the front. Coleman made their own brand of trucks that had front and rear steering drive axles.
@@BareKnuckleBinder - So, I’m learning about the Coleman conversion: I see those big dome cap covers. Do the rear axles also have the same dome cap covers. I’m just trying to get a completed picture in my brain.
@@integrityrentalproperties9173 the actual Coleman trucks had dome covers front and back, I’ve only seen a Coleman conversion with domes front and back for a promo photo.