Why I Never Throw Flat Discs
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ก.พ. 2021
- FOLLOW ME:
joelfreemanholehearted
instagram @joelfreeman_holehearted
tiktok @joelfreeman_holehearted
WEBSITE (where you can find all things Joel Freeman related):
linktr.ee/holehearted
Animation by imotivation from Pixabay - กีฬา
![[TH] GEN vs SEN | FPX vs TH - VALORANT Champions 2024 DAY 1](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VcyH-0LAlhs/mqdefault.jpg)
![อยู่ได้แล้ว - LIPTA feat. Mirrr [OFFICIAL MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-9-hpntNym4/mqdefault.jpg)
![เกิดใหม่ทั้งทีก็เป็นสไลม์ไปซะแล้ว ซีซั่น 3 - ตอนที่ 65 [ซับไทย]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4EsinscQCfs/mqdefault.jpg)
Wow. An education major as a disc golf pro really is the dream combo for a TH-cam channel. He's breaking down some of these topics better than anyone else out there. Great stuff Joel! Keep it coming!
The words you were looking for are, the discs moment of inertia as it relates to its spin rate and velocity and....tree.
Increasing the dome of a disc increases the Bernoulli effect (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli%27s_principle). Basically as air passes over top surface of the disk, it moves faster because of dome causing lower air pressure on top surface of disc. This pressure difference (higher pressure under disc) causes upward lift and helps resist lateral rotation.
I agree with all your observations.
Im curious how a larger cavity underneath would affect this as well. I would assume a larger cavity would cause more turbulent flow (kind of making the air form eddy currents underneath), further slowing down the air that passes under the disc.
@@davidotto3132 that would explain why slower discs don't go as far.
@@davidotto3132 i was thinking about this, and an ideal throw would be nose down. so the cavity would be a moot point because the leading edge of the disc is whats interacting with the wind which would make the dome the part thats mainly interacting with the wind until it slows down and goes noes up.
Dome also increases the size of the cavity under the disc somewhat, which (in general) brings the aerodynamic center of the disc closer to the center of gravity, which gives it more stability in flight (in the truest sense).
There's a thesis paper called "Dynamics and Performance of Flying Discs" that covers the aerodynamic effects of these factors on disc flight. The paper focuses specifically on disc golf discs and discusses thickness, dome, height and leading edge in relation to stability. Just if you're interested. Great video, Joel!
So more domey discs are more overstable within the same mold?
I believe you have hot and cold weather backwards. Hot air is less dense, and therefor there is less of it to provide lift and drag. The opposite is true of cold air.
This is not necessarily true. While hot dry air is less dense than cold dry air, there are not that many places where truly dry air exists naturally. Water vapor is significantly denser than air, and without loss of generality, warmer air can and usually does hold a higher water vapor content than colder air. The end result, counterintuitively, is that warmer air tends to be more dense than cold air.
As an anecdotal piece of evidence, if you have ever been in Louisiana (although I suspect this may be true for most places as well, just Louisiana is much more exaggerated) after a good rain in the summer, the air is extremely thick and heavy. If you compare that to just after a hard rain in the winter and you will feel the air, while thicker than it felt before the rain, is no where near as heavy as it is after a summer rain. I know anecdotes are not proof, and the heaviness of air is not the same as air density. But I feel the example might be good enough to help illustrate the point.
First of all, I’d like to say that I’m so glad you did this video! The flight comparison you make between flat and domey is exactly what I’ve been feeling for a while now. The domey discs just seem to fly with less extremes in either direction. I recently proved this to myself when i took out my flattish Roadrunner (my roller disc) and replaced it with a Barsby Roadrunner which I’ve noticed has more dome. The flight of the disc was WAY LONGER because the high speed turn was more gradual, and the disc was able to fight back to flat at the end as a result.
One thing I did want to comment on is your uncertainty about the effect of spin on the flight, or more importantly the WHY aspect. Have you ever seen the science experiment with the bike wheel hanging vertically from it’s center? The tire is spun at a VERY high rate, and the then you are able to actually turn the tired sideways in midair and it’ll stay there for as long as the spin rate stays high. The general idea is that at a high rate of spin, the the outward force makes the wheel want to stay on it’s current plane, fighting against gravity trying to pull it back down to vertical. How does this apply to discs? A disc with a high rate of spin will always “fight” to keep it’s current tilt (on a flat throw, this would be perfectly flat / true meaning of “stable”) because of the force, while other factors of flight will be fighting against that. As a result, an understable disc will be fighting against that to turn the disc to the right which means the flip will come slower and later in the flight, and an overstable disc will stay straighter longer because again the force is wanting to keep the disc straight / true stable. And The result for both types of discs is how i describe it as a “stretched out flight path”. Like when you see those flight charts, it would be like taking one of those lines and just stretching it out longer (again making the turn and fade more gradual / less severe). This in my opinion is why I believe pros truly have a different looking flight than AMs. You’ll also notice sometimes that some pros throw much faster than others, but don’t always get farther distances than pros who emphasize spin more than speed. A prime example of this is Ricky Wysocki. I’ve been noticing this about him for a while. He’s not necessarily speed gunning the top speed out there, but his flights (especially with overstable discs) are SO long. And the reason being is that if you look at his form, he REALLY emphasizes his wrist action, and putting a ton of spin on the disc. It’s how he gets so much distance out of his Pigs. There is so much force pushing out from the spin he puts on them, that it is able to fight and WIN against the Pig’s naturally tendency to fall out of the sky as fast as possible. That’s why he can rely on them for such a wide range of distances, because he knows to put more or less spin on it based on how far he’s trying to put them. I have started to use this technique to get later flips out of my understable discs. There is a certain left-to-right hole at my local course that i throw an understable putter on. I started to notice that I needed to choose an understable disc for the shape of the shot, but I would always end up turning too soon and end up short. Switching to a mid gave me too much distance, and not enough turn if i backed off of it. So I tried playing around with spin, and if i focus on putting more spin on that understable putter, it goes straighter for a little bit longer before turning over, and it was just what I needed. Another thing I noticed about these flights is that the pros get almost 3 stages to the flight instead of 2. Before the high speed turn phase of the throw, (WITH a lot of spin) there is an initial high speed + high spin portion of the flight that just goes dead straight on the line it’s released on. This is another reason they get such longer flights. I first noticed this during one of the MVP Opens with Big Jerm on the feature / lead card (can’t remember which) off of hole 1 over the water. He throws an understable disc out to the left of the fairway and high. It goes straight for some time, THEN starts to turn right over the fairway, and then finally fading back left to the center of the fairway. than initial part of the flight is ONLY possible if you have enough SPIN to outmatch the disc’s natural tendencies in the high speed portion of the flight.
Sorry for the rant, I’ve had those thoughts on my mind for a long time now, and especially since I started incorporating it into my own game. Once I saw Joel allude to it, I couldn’t hold back!
Holy crapballs!
And to show you how air resistance works, I SAWED THIS DISC IN HALF.
You are an awesome teacher. Easily understandable. What you said about "Dome" makes the most sense out of everyone who I've heard try to explain it.Happy to see this perspective on the sport we love. Keep up the good work.
I really loved the chart on this one. You do a great job at explaining things. Keep it up!
One of the best in-depth vids on disc flight and shape. Love how you synthesize all these data points to describe flight characteristics
Well done, Joel. I can tell you put a lot of time and thought into this video. I'll have to go back and watch your other videos too.
There’s a few other points that should have been made
If a disc has dome due to the top of the disc shrinking during cooling, thus will raise the parting line and make it more stable.
Also as far as a preference, a lot of forehand dominant players prefer flatter discs.
A good comparison of domey vs flat discs would be any Innova “3” version disc. The roc3, mako3, leopard3, tl3 and teebird3 are just the standard disc mold with a flatter top. With the exception of the teebird, all of the “3” versions of those discs are probably the more popular version of those discs.
This video is exactly what I've been looking for. So far no new information for me, but you just made it sound so simple, I love how this can help many others! Also my notes that I can't be 100 % sure. About the colour of the disc: What I know about painting cars etc, various colours needs different amount of metal in blend. For example yellow and pink needs less, white the most. Therefore these discs might be just a bit less elastic, and might have effect on the stability. But all in all, I lastly check colour if I find a profile I'm seeking on drivers. EDIT: If there's more weight in the rim, disc needs more power and spin to throw farther, but if you have the technique and arm speed, it goes farther.
Interesting video! I’m a huge math and physics nerd, so this is definitely something I’ve thought about a lot, so it’s nice to get some input from an expert!
Super interesting! I had associated domey discs with more glide and more understable flight and vice versa but this makes a lot of sense with disc reveiws I've read that mention a flatter top version of a distance driver having more turn. Thanks for shedding light on this!
More weight in the rim makes the disc more gyroscopic which directly affects how much and how long a disc will spin for, so your observation is correct that a disc with more weight in the rim can act more overstable. The gyroscopic effect will maximize how long the disc is spinning for, making it really stable for the duration of its flight and then as the spin finally dies down all that weight on the outside of the wing will start having effect on the wing angle and make it fade more. One of the tricks Dave at Gateway used to make the Wizard so stable is to make the flight plate really thin to maximize the weight in the rim - this is why you see so many old Wizards clovered/warped in the flight plate.
I've always compared domeyness to the top of an airplane wing = lift? Air pressure?
EDIT: Which also relates to altitude. I'm not well versed in physics, but I've always understood that the disc does not "ride on the air", but it actually acts like a wing (pulls up/lift) and utilizes the same physics. Again, this is all relevant to the thrower, and maintaining a nose down angle. Nose up = no air passing "over" the disc to create lift - again, a wing.
Dude this is so well done. Unique to the hundreds of disc golf videos I have watched. Thanks!
Joel: "I never throw flat discs"
Also joel: "My favorite disc of all time is the Gator3"
To be fair he stated that he draws the line at a midrange and does not like come on a mid/putter.
Edit: that one clearly went over my head lol
@@spencer2519 It was a joke. You are supposed to laugh.
Jared, I laughed!...the irony is real!!!
@@joelfreemanhole-hearted6305 I'm glad someone understands my humor! Hahaha
Oof I apologize haha sorry!
I literally just picked up my phone to check for a new JF video, and voila! Thanks!
Interesting video. It is the best layman explanation of dome that I have come across so far.
Excellent dissertation. Thanks!
The graphs helped explain things really well. Thanks.
I just found your channel a few days ago and have loved watching your videos. You have been killing it with the content, keep up the good work man 🤘
Hype intro Joel. Man you bring the drama to the tour, really fun to watch keep up the goood work !!! Big fan dude
Super interesting, thanks Joel. I've been really curious about how the shape affects to the flight, and this explained it really well. Congrats on the new Gator, can't wait to check it out!
Lift is the force that causes a disc to TURN due to gyroscopic precession.
The domier a disc is the more lift will be generated.
However, the domier a disc is the more drag will be generated.
It's a balancing act that is influenced by the Rim Configuration.
Angular velocity (aka spin) influences how resistance the disc is to varying from it's path.
One aspect of discs that hasn't been talked about much is the flight plate thickness.
The PDGA requires that it can be no more then 5mm.
The force that resists angular torque is the Moment of Inertia.
The higher the MOI, the more torque has to be applied to get the same angular velocity.
MOI is influenced by the ration of rim mass vs flight plate mass.
The thicker the flight plate is, the more mass it has which lowers the MOI.
A disc with lower MOI is easier to hyzer flip.
Temperature and elevation affect air density.
air density influences airflow over the disc.
airflow over the disc influences LIFT.
At higher elevations or colder temperatures discs create less lift because of the decrease in airflow due to lower air density.
Love the it, diving into something that hasn’t been talked about. Well done
Came back to one of these deep dive videos to say you really helped me synthesize my thoughts around domey discs!
Great tips and explanations
Excellent and unique video. Thank you for this!
Exactly! Great video, great diagrams. Love what your doing, keep it up 👍
This is some excellent analysis!
Great insight Joel. Thank you
I was told from a hall of famer that at least in the old days the darker discs were more over stable. Apparently manufacturers did it that way on purpose.
What a great, refreshing and entertaining "approach " to disc golf tutorials. After one episode, I have subscribed. Truly looking forward to watching more entertaining episodes...even if my game doesn't improve.
Awesome insight! Especially on the dome!!! Never heard it explained at all!
Joel's diagrams are super cool. Very helpful to think things through more deeply.
20:20 yes you're right. Moment of inertia is why high speed big rim discs are more overstable. If you can't get the rpms on, there's not enough spin to keep it gyroscopically stable and it'll fade harder.
That is not correct. Putters actually have higher moment of inertia that drivers. The drivers have a wider rim yes but the putters are taller. its counter intuitive but its true. Example: MVP Photon moment of Inertia: 1.33 g-m², MVP Ion moment of inertia: 1.47 g-m². These numbers can be found by creating models of the discs in CAD. Large rim discs are more aerodynamic and thus create less lift at lower speeds. When the driver has slowed down to the point where it can no longer create enough lift to stay in the air, it will start to fall and it is then it starts to fade. You can get more spin on a driver but it will fade at a lower speed than a putter and therefore is more stable.
@@roblol5481 what equation(s) are you referring to?
@@rustydenton9412 Im not referring to any equations. These are just the numbers Cad gives you when you make a model of the two discs
I have no idea how correct the take on physics was but this was a fun, well constructed video. Good stuff!
Just wanted to let you know that I really like what you are doing with these videos. Original, creative, and interesting. Well done.
Wow, Thanks B.J. That is very kind. Thank you for watching!
fantastic content, love the diagrams! Thanks!!
Any effort of explaining physics behind the disc flight is commandable to say the least ! :) That was really interesting for me, learned some completly new stuff. Last year I was trying to find out why discs turn in the first place and that's some higher level physics territory I guess :D You kinda started explaining it, but that was the brain melt moment and you switched the thought proccess after that understandably of course. I still don't exactly grasp that myself. Great vid, thanks dude !
Think about the disc “cutting” through water. With a dome, the water above the disc creates more friction, thus pulling the disc up. The water does not move, so the water below moves less, creating less friction.
I agree with you nonetheless. Having a dome will help it resist turn because of the same physics. Spin definitely elongates the effect.
Solid points. 👍
It all makes sense thank you Joel
Joel, excellent disc science! Thank you!
Awesome show!
Parting line is the flash and some discs don't have a visible flash or on the outside of the rim. Depends on the disc manufacturer.
Calvin says the opposite about the dome’s effect on turn and fade. Calvin says the dome makes the disc move right and left more. The video of Calvin saying this came out in late April 2022 and is a mid season bag check.
Awesome thanks!
Thanks Joel, been wanting to know the difference between flat and domey. Appreciate your channel 🙏
It's my understanding is that there is a "perfect ratio" of spin to speed for each disc. If you add speed you end up with a more understable flight than that "perfect ratio". OR if you add spin you get a shot that seems more overstable. With more spin than speed the disc holds its release angle much better. Flat release will seem more overstable, anhyzer release will hold that line much longer. Example being a soft putter anhyzer shot with an overstable disc. Low power, tons of spin, anhyzer release and you get a long panning shot all the way to the ground.
Another advantage to high spin vs speed is that it allows understable discs to fly under more control. They are far less likely to turn over into a roller. That extra spin helps keep them "true" to their intended flight path.
Great video Joel! You were very eloquent
This is great content, I would love to see more educational disc golf videos from you as I’m getting into the sport and very intimidated by some of the variables and physics of it all…
The four forces that affect flight are lift, weight, thrust and drag. High speed drivers can be compared to the airfoil/wings of a jet. They need higher velocity to fly as designed. Conversely, putters can be compared to the airfoil/wings of a Piper Cub. They require a modest amount of velocity to fly as designed, and will naturally resist too much velocity. The link below may help explain:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airfoil#:~:text=An%20airfoil%20(American%20English)%20or,propeller%2C%20rotor%2C%20or%20turbine.
I find it helpful to think of frisbees as their three constituent elements. A wing, a parachute, and a gyroscope. I've always thrown with a lot of spin as an ultimate player to fight the wind, get crisp angles and create easy catches, and have found that great for freestyle obviously but definitely for disc golf. I don't consciously apply extra spin on my drives but on approach and other shots I do try to snap it a bit more which makes for a more pure flight.
I've been playing less than a year but I've definitely noticed that sidearm throws have less spin, I know this a bit from freestyle but in disc golf if an overstable disc is spinning faster it is more overstable. If I flick a firebird it definitely flies less overstable than the equivalent backhand. I particulary notice this on the Zone, back hand approaches I can really work the overstable flight but sidearm can turn over a bit or at least stay flat and glide.
^^ This guy knows what's up. Your comment about forehands directly ties into my comment above that links weight distribution and spin, and claims forehands have intrinsically less spin, hence less stability.
Interesting! I always thought that more spin would cause the disc to turn more, probably because that's what balls do. Maybe putting more spin on the disc will help me fix my forehand!
@@outandabout259 I think discs definitely do turn more when they spin faster/thrown harder. I think they also turn more when they're not spinning enough, as they lose their gyroscopic stability and start falling over sideways. I've definitely found discs are more overstable if I spin then more. But side arm throws also have less spin than backhands due to the mechanics of the throw
Very informative. Thank you. I am taking notes. Seriously, I'm am actually writing down notes from this video.
I love roadrunners and I like a flatter disc for throwing rollers
Premise that all holes require a doom driver is incorrect. We also need drivers that hold the line and sinks with dependability, like flat firebird disc does. Disc selection depends on the flight path needed for a specific hole. This is why you have to pick disc for the hole first, rather than deciding on doom before looking at the hole.
IME parting line height is a better marker of stability than dome level. This is usually because as the plastic cools out of the mold, sometimes the PLH is pulled up as it shrinks (flatter tops) and sometimes the PLH sags down as it shrinks (domier tops).
The background, purple hoodie, physics words. I think I’m in love. Liked and subscribed dude. I especially love the honesty at 15ish min. Ams don’t NEED higher than 10 speed discs. Yes we can throw them, yes we can find use for them, but in the end these discs are suited for higher arm speeds. They’re literally engineered for more power and better form. The higher speed “am distance” discs, like the shryke, turn, and other brands high speed “easy distance” discs are really just a huge rim engineered to be under stable at a slower speed, but a bit flatter to come back and give that “straight” feel. No real control, just 20ft longer on an open field for our noodle arms. Not a bad thing, just how it is.
Plus that cut in half disc was probably fated for a pond to sit for all eternity. Now it’s educational. Good work.
Thanks Joel. Physics is hard. My experience is that domey discs fade harder but what do I know? For sure flatter ones typically turn more. Teebird is a prime example. A nice domey one will act pretty overstable for me but my flat ones turn a little and dump. I've heard the Teebird3, which should be flatter of course, are faster, less glidey but with less fade. Yeti has an in the bag from a few years ago where he discusses the difference that rim width has on the effects of domeyness. Need to watch that one again. Thanks again, good stuff.
I've played a lot of disc golf at 6000 ft of elevation and at sea level and my furthest drives have always been at sea level
Wow! Such a cool video. Yes, I’m a total disc golf nerd and it’s hard to find education like this. Many thanks!
I wanted to test this on my own discs. I sorted all my drivers by flat, gentle dome, and pop toppy. The pop toppy ones were all my favorite drivers before watching your video. I think you may have something here. I'll have to keep an eye out for more domey discs
That's awesome! I'm not surprised
super glad your creating content, your fellow colorado homeboy Doth Savek has a really cool video (with science) about weight distribution in the rim (comparison with some mvp stuff, pretty neat)
Also, as someone who lives in Michigan and travels to Colorado, my discs definitely tend to have less glide and more fade. I tend to remedy this by reaching for lighter less stable stuff. Also, you did not touch on disc weight? thoughts.
I figured weight is very commonly known to come right along with overstability, so I didn't address it. As far as I know, the heavier the disc, the more overstable it is. Of course there are always a few exceptions, but ya...whoops lol probably should have put that in there
Doth Savic has a great video on weight distribution of a disc.....more weight on the outside of the disc means slower but longer lasting spin..... more weight to the centre equals faster spin but dies quickly.....
Great thoughts in this video! I agree with everything else but spin. I think more spin makes a disc more stable, not overstable.
I think you are correct on this point!
I'm also a disc golfing physics nerd, and as far as I can tell, all the right answers, though a couple not with the correct explanation. Good thing discs don't ask you to show your work, haha. Keep it up Joel... or should I say, Mr. Freeman (were you a teacher?).
haha I studied education in college. Never actually worked at a school, but I have taught art classes and dance classes in the past.
Thanks for your comment, Jose!
Thank you
I agree spin stables up discs.... I was having trouble throwing a Nova without turning it over until I realized I wasn’t getting enough spin on it.... more spin straightened it right out.....
Education is where you excel. Focus on that strength and this channel will go far!
Great feedback. I hadn't thought of it that way. Thank you for this comment!
And unicycles!
*Experiment results:* (please like so everybody can see this, if interested)
I have expermiented with making some of my old flippy discs more domy using hot water and suction in a bowl (it works!).
Conclusions: domy discs are very awesome, good glide and more stable, try this at home with discs you don't use in tournaments (modifying makes the illegal in pdga) if you want to learn what a dome does to different discs and what you prefer. This has helped me SO much.
*Details:*
My drivers have become significantly more stable, midrange a bit more movement.
*MVP fission photon: flat --> medium dome:* before it was unreliable for me because either it turned a long time or didn't really turn -> now it's a beefcake to a degree that it kinda dumps - doesn't even flip up in headwind for me.
*MVP plasma crave: board flat --> slight dome:* flat I could flip it up from a small hyzer angle to flat, not I can only do that in headwind, and it does not turn over at all.
*Millenium Orion LF: semi-flat --> good dome.* This was a bit too flippy before. Now if I max-rip it smol hyzer I get some perfect turn and even though it flies farther it's more easy to control distance.
*Glo-Z buzzz: board flat --> BIG dome:* this has kinda kept the same stability but is now flying a good amount farther (is a tiny bit more stable)
I think a point that is missed is nose angle issues, if you throw nose up with a domey disc it will act incredible OS compared to a flat nose up release.
cool stuff ty, In my humble opinion the more spin= overstable idea is what I've experienced as I get better. Which mess with the whole hyzer flip thing lol
So am I wrong or isn't cold air denser than warm air? So a disc in cold weather should have more resistance. Unaccording to that I also experience the discs behaving more stable in cold weather. Not shure if it is because of lower armspeed in the offseason or what...
Totally agree with controllability vs distance diagram. I think Ballista/Ballista Pro is the only 14 speed driver used actively by pro players and mainly in open holes to get max distance. In that case control has less meaning.
Warm air is less dense and humid (not rain) is less dense than dry air and high altitude is less dense than low altitude. In low density airplanes need longer runway to take off, because there is less lift and planes climb up quicker in dense/cold air. In cold and dense air there is more lift. Cold air is thicker though making more drag so objects are flying slower.
So in warm disc flies faster, but have less glide and with a domey disc you can get the extra glide, but how much the aerodynamics of dome vs flat impacts. I don't know.
Race cars are built on the opposite way compared to planes and cars have more downforce in dense air.
So dense air can cause less lift depending how the object is built. Discs area meant to fly and use lift so they have more lift in dense air. I think Tilt is built and flies the opposite to a normal disc and that is why it flies better upside down.
The diagrams help - appreciate it
Cool explanation. I gotta domey putter in premium plastic once. I hated it. I bought it t for throwing but it just felt weird. Also I didn't notice any more glide.
Discs with more weight in the rim have more gyroscopic stability. That means that they will be more resistant to "off-axis torque," or wabble. Wabble moves the force off the center of the disc which causes a disc to act like an understable disc. This is why a newer player might find throwing a higher speed disc forehand easier, because they will probably be throwing with more OAT than a more advanced player.
Very informative as always. Love the video fellow Coloradan
You are my new king
Wow very informative!
Super cool video man. Not alot of the other high level players really dive into "theory"
Well one the most understable discs that i have thrown is MX1 from lightingdiscs is white and has like 1 inhc high dome oh also yes it has hit a few trees during its lifetime
Thank you for this. I hope it is all true because it makes a lot of sense. The Invnova Corvette remains a mystery though. It is domey, which might explain why it holds such a straight line for me. But it is speed 14, yet somehow I can get my max distance with more control than any speed 11-13 disc. Like you say, as an amateur, I thrive on getting 10 speed discs out to 330’. Corvette goes 380’!
Very cool! That's the magic of the game of disc golf. It's not the same for any two players and sometimes cannot be fully explained :)
GStar should add +.5 to glide to all discs. Firm discs give you more confidence for dependability.
Well done.
Domey discs display more lateral movement both in terms of turn and fade, than flatter discs. Flatter discs hold a line better. Domey discs are also much more susceptible to flutter from off axis torque because so much of the mass of the disc is above the parting line. It's all a matter of preference. I like flat discs. The benefits far outweigh the loss of late flight glide for me.
This is a fascinating perspective because I have literally found the exact opposite to be true. Domey discs have less lateral movement in terms of turn and fade. They are definitely more prone to flutter though. That I completely agree with! Disc golf is such an amazing game!
More weight on the rim definitely adds overstability. Well it certainly adds resistance to off axis torque by increasing the rotational momentum. I don't know if resistance to high speed turn results in more low speed turn.
100% agree. I'm also not sold on the idea that rotational momentum directly translates into "overstability". It definitely translates into resistance to turn. But you can also see it causing resistance to fade. You can regularly see top pros throw somewhat overstable fairway drivers with tons of spin that seem to "sit down" instead of "flair out". Sure, some of it is due to high forward velocity, but some of it is due to the increased rotational momentum. It's just harder to twist the disc in the air hyzer/nose-up because it has more rotational momentum.
I think you're onto something, here...I think I agree with Fizzy!
@@FizzyP more spin definitely results in both less turn and less fade. The faster the disc spins the more it resists tilting, in both directions.
@@roblol5481 100% agree
You already drew the winner just commenting synthesizer to help the channel 👍
Spin on disc does not make the disc "more overstable". It will have both less slow and fast speed fade, caused by the gyro effect. You could say the disc becomes more stable :)
DUUUDE!! such a good explanation, finally have a good video to point someone to when I cant seem to get the words out right hahaha. PS. The understanding of stable not meaning overstable is a pet peeve lol
The reason people use stable to mean overstable is to clearly compare two discs. Every disc will turn and fade some thrown fast or slow enough. Even the Tilt. Might be 150 mph though!
So saying that, no straight disc exists and is clearly thrower dependent among other things like weather, altitude, nose angle, spin. How does anyone know how you throw? Do I say a Teebird is stable? Then is it more or less understable or overstable? You might have 3 Teebirds and one is OS, one S and one US. Now how do you compare them when talking? Do you say the US one is less OS then the OS one? Well the US one isn't even OS to begin with so you are not even correctly speaking.
If you simply say more or less stable anyone can get an idea on the spectrum of stability how the disc flies. You are making it confusing when saying stable meaning straight because straight doesn't exist like I said.
Oh well, it is a pet peeve of mine that people can't understand how language works.
@@discgolfdetails9889 no, just no
@@zbadeee1993 Stable doesn't mean straight. No straight disc exists and even if it does it varies by thrower. Which is why people use more or less stable to compare discs. What we are doing is simply making a description.
I hear you, but that’s not the matter at hand.... you are confusing it all. you are turning one word into another. Overstable is still the word you are meaning to use
@@zbadeee1993 If you have two Teebirds and one is understable and one overstable and you say one is less overstable then the other you are inferring that both are overstable. You can't use that terminology because of that. The main point when describing two discs is to get your point across, usually in the least amount of effort. Which is why more or less stable has always been used and then you also are not misrepresenting the two discs either.
Very interesting program - but what about the relationship of weight to this discussion. The throwing of a light disc versus a heavier disc (150s vs 160s or 170s).
I'd be interested in a video all about disc weight as well...
I would like to hear you discuss how weight affects disc flight on a future segment. As a 63 year old recreational noodle arm I use ultralight (135-145g) distance drivers off the tee, including the Destroyer, Tern and Wraith. Do you feel that using 150g plus discs would hurt or help my distance?
It depends on the scenario. I think the wind is a huge aspect of this topic. Imagine a guy throwing shot put in a 20mph headwind vs a 20mph tail wind. Then imagine someone throwing a ping pong ball in the same two conditions. The guys throwing shot put probably would nearly throw the same in either situation. The guys with the ping pong ball will be able to throw way out there with a tailwind, but the ping pong ball might even get pushed backwards in a head wind.
Conclusion: For distance, throw the heaviest weighted disc you can without experiencing a noticeable loss in distance. For control, throw heavier discs. In a tailwind, lighter might get you the most distance. In a headwind, heavy might get you the most distance
Hope this helps!
Educational and cool
Loved it!! Definitely helped understand a disc better. Do you teach lessons at all?
I do! Feel free to message me on Facebook or Instagram for rates
I think wide rimmed distance drivers, if thrown at their suggested speeds DO have and retain spin at a greater rate than say a fairway or mid, resulting in more distance.. given, release velocity and angle suit the disc molds max performance needs.. i.e. The gyro top you would spin as a kid.. the gyro toy/top that had its weight concentrated on its outer ring would stay vertical a longer amount of time, thus staying "stable" longer. i.e. on that, we see the Aerobie ring found in outdoor shops, sporting goods, etc. The Aerobie rings have no flight plate, thus reducing glide, but since ALL the weight is in the "rim", they soar/spin to great distances. Take this a step further, and we get to the MVP line of discs, the overmold is a denser/heavier plastic than the flight plate, adding more gyroscopic ability with less effort.
All this being said max speed distance drivers go further if released at nearly perfect angle and velocity.. the trade off is that meeting that perfect goal of release velocity and angle is a challenge of muscle memory, skill, and frankly throwing that one mold MANY times to learn its "personality". Go down in speed to a 10 or an 11 speed disc and you have more forgiveness, but with less distance yielding more control overall.
Takeaway, high speed discs are temperamental whether they be understable or stable.
P.S> To agree, Dome vs Flat adds yet another dimension to this discussion.. EEK!
Thanks for the upload, I always look forward to your content Joel!
I find I have the same accuracy with high speed drivers as I do with fairway drivers. If I'm throwing my destroyer I feel just as able to hit a target or gap as with a thunderbird, perhaps more so. I guess everyone is different. All my throws are pretty accurate though, putting on the other hand is a disaster..! Complete mystery to me.
Great video