Support me on Patreon: patreon.com/underthemayo Mayo merch here! teespring.com/stores/underthemayo TH-cam Memberships to my channel now available, click the "Join" button. Follow me on Twitch at twitch.tv/underthemayo
You know style meter giving out buffs is pretty cool. While people will have fun with style meter that don't do that I can see those same people having fun with a style meter that unlocks a giant Lazer move mid combat if they get SSS ...and then hitting enemies with it gives them SSS+ unlocking more moves or something. It sounds to fun not to tryout at least once.
Also there are so many games doing sonic better than sonic. At this point I haft to concede that the old dog even when learning new tricks just can't stick the landing in a way I'm expecting.
Something worth noting; iirc, in earlier builds of pizza tower, boss doors WERE restricted by, at the very least, point requirements (that in turn affected your overall level rank). From what I remember, they changed it to be more accommodating to people who wanted to play it more like a standard "get to the end" platformer (altho i could be misremembering). Big agree otherwise though. It definitely does a good job at getting players aquainted with the faster playstyle higher ranks require (although i wish p ranking wasn't so damn strict personally, but ill admit im just not good at the game in general lol)
I was gonna mention about the points requirement thingie for bosses. Yee early days of the release of Pizza Tower they lowered the toppings requirements, which I found silly tbh. I didn't have a problem with getting enough to progress mostly because I just explored much as possible (Playing 2D Sonic and Wario Land helps lol), but I think it's a good way to get newbies to explore and perhaps prepare them the challenge of the P ranks. Some of them are complete bastards to do, but god damn it helped to push me to enjoy the game even further. Hell, I even got all the achievements and the holy shit ranking at the end of the game. With the case of Mayo, it's definitely a personal thing and I can agree with that. I love that the game requires you to use a move or technique, and then asks "Ok how do you string that together?" It's a cool game
I’ve played through Pizza Tower and P-Ranked every single level, loved it. I do see the criticism and do wish that later levels were locked behind a certain amount of A ranks or even a few S ranks. But I do say that I do think the game was designed with the P-rank in mind with the rest of the ranks being so that it isn’t necessarily skill-gated away from everyone else. I do think Pizza Tower is at its most fun when trying to P-rank the levels, but if you didn’t want to try it, that’s fine. I’m glad you still liked it regardless, Mayo. It’s my personal game of the year.
I actually didnt think much about it before but what you pointed out actually makes a lot of sense to me. I always wondered why some games asks you to do these simple actions that I as a player have already learned and personally been using for a while. I kind of thought of them just a simple interaction so player has to press button instead of just moving. But if I think about it the way you said it's a pretty smart way to remind players of mechanics that they might have not been using.
You should check out Rain World. That game doesn't let you progress until you repeatedly survive the current area. I found it really frustrating tbh. Surviving once or twice was great, but when you get to the point you need to survive like 5 cycles, and every time you fail, you have to successfully replay the area again, it can become a nightmare. To survive you need to explore and find enough food, then return to a safe area while avoiding being eaten, oh hat's right, you die in 1 hit from any number of wildlife in the area that are actively trying to eat you lol.
See this is why i like your videos and your channel so much, i'm not a game designer, but i'd like to make a game one day, and to see someone like you give an explanation about the fact that there's a different way of teaching players the games mechanics than just forcing them to use those mechanics to survive is kind of eye opening, it's the kind of information that i wouldn't get from any other channel i feel because there's not many other people who talk about game mechanics in this way, usually it's just nonsense focusing on the overall philosophy of the combat, or the feel of it, the themes behind certain decisions of the game design, whatever, sure these things are important too, but i wanna know what makes games actually work, both the big picture stuff and the small details that make everything click together, and what you talk about is useful in learning that i think, so thank you mayo.
Seeing Ninja Gaiden in here makes me want to see what you'd think about Nioh 2 if you gave it a good 50-100 hours to explore the whole combat system and all the enemies. It's such a weird game conceptually from a design standpoint, where it sort of goes through phases as you get better and learn more mechanics, gradually going from "Dark Souls but Japanese" to "Oh my god this is actually Diablo?" to "Yokai Infinite Combo Style Master" as you realize just how many mechanics are essentially optional if you just get gud.
Hi Fi Rush was fantastic, and then it introduced parrying, and the fun diminished. And then parrying became the central mechanic, and the fun stopped. And then there was an entire boss fight about parrying and the fun went away completely. I don't know why so many of these types of games get completely stuck on parrying, to the point where it's not optional and it's *the* major component of so many of the fights, it's a real shame watching a game you loved just devolve into custard.
I don't mind parrying but I do think it has become extremely overused as a defensive mechanic in action games recently, same with the dark souls dodge roll
I really want to go deep into both of these games and make a video about them. Not only did both of them come out literally a day apart from each other in January of this year, but they both resemble the '90s and the 2000s in my eyes. They are also both sadly only digital and I do hope for both of them that they get a physical release in the future!
So maybe if ultrakill had a locked door which you had open by using combo using a coin, then maybe it will make the player curious to try out the combos themselves ? I remember DMC 3 having a challenge of staying in the air for 20 secs that made me look up jump cancel and bayo 1 having challenges where I can damage the enemies using only wicked weaves, the down side is that you have explore to find this challenges and I just happened to find them. The 2 games also had rewards for these challenges like gettings halos or red orbs for upgrades.
I think little things like that would be great for Act 1 of ultrakill. Quickly timed doors, moments of required parrying. There's all kinds of stuff you can do to show off your mechanics.
@@underthemayo..........this.......this comment right here shows you how much you suck at the game I DON'T EVEN HAVE IT AND IM TALKING SHIT THAT SHOWS HOW MUCH YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT GAMES
@@underthemayousually i dont agree with reviewers such as yourself but i agree. if a door or exit to a level had a required style meter level (for the first time playing the level only) i think it would be really good for new players to learn to play
Seeing your thoughts on how Pizza Tower pushes players into it's gameplay loop, I'd *really* be interested to see you opinion on Spark the Electric Jester 3. It's also a platformer with an emphasis on speed and, since you enjoyed Pizza Tower, You might enjoy it too.
OH YEAH! Pizza Tower! This right here is my personal GOTY! Pizza Tower is pure unadulterated whacky *** oldschool platformer fun. It wears its sources on its sleeve and has nigh infinite room for improvement but is fun at any level of skill. It's also the ultimate counter argument to anti-skill and learning features in games. Especially considering it was basically made by ONE guy.
Dustforce is a cool platformer game that leans pretty heavily on the style / scoring thing. You can't fail levels but you have to beat them with a high ranking (high completion + few mistakes) to unlock more levels, and unlocking everything requires getting perfect scores. Also has a hub world where some levels can only be accessed by doing tricky jumps or advanced movement which is pretty interesting. Only issue is that it's pretty light on the tutorials; there is some simple speed tech that makes it really fun to play but it's hard to figure out how to do it unless you look it up online.
Spider-Man 2 actually did a good job at forcing you to play well better than I expected it to especially for the kind of game it was. Your health pool is small as hell on the default setting and enemies were numerous and it forced me to use the gun disarm, gadgets and special moves. And since your health pool was also really small, I often contemplated on whether I should use a finisher to take out an enemy or heal myself in case I accidentally got hit. I had to use the parry too and had to be even better at dodging. Enemies were attacking you from all sides and I had to priortize which enemies to take out. The game had it's problems but in terms of combat, I think it's an improvement over the previous games as well as the Batman Arkham series. Spider-Man 2 kind of felt like Doom Eternal in how the difficulty was upped compared to their respective first games.
@@aadipie I belined it for the main story quests and regular goons at least ripped my health bar in half after 2 hits. The regular enemies did at the very least force me to move a lot, and the low health pool forced me to play better. The bosses can get pretty challenging where in say Batman Arkham and Middle Earth games, they usually aren't tough on their own.
I’m also happy that these games (and Robocop) aren’t long games. Lately I’d rather have a lean, mean ten hour game I can easily replay than a hundred hour AAA game I only play once because it’s bloated and overstays its welcome.
I think visual design and the way it feels to play the game is also important for getting into the fun zone. If the game somewhat stumbles getting the player into its mechanics, sometimes the visual appeal can kinda make up for that if the mechanics are tight. Like in DMC. Yes, locking higher difficulties is not a great choice, but when I see how DMC presents itself, I cannot help but engage with everything it has to offer. It just looks great, and it feels right. But DMC4, for example, does not appeal to me at all with its presentation, so I did not really get into it, unlike 1, 3 and 5. Or Shadow Warrior 3, for example. Its design is similar to Doom Eternal, it gets everything right when it comes to mechanics and their integration. But the visual design and overall presentation are so unappealing to me that I've beaten it once and will never replay it again, unlike DE, which I am replaying right now and having tons of fun. I guess the way to the fun zone depends entirely on a person.
As someone who adores Pizza Tower, I understand your point of view. It does lack the "consequences", but I got engaged if not addicted to the controls and pacing of each level. I grew up with platformers like DKC2 and Wario Land 4 is, unlike Pizza Tower, using a failure state but isn't as punishing as the Second Lap runs from the indie title. To me, this is what I want from Sonic the Hedgehog, which I never got because I never felt like the game was designed to accomodate the new player in its gameplay. I just never got into it. Pizza Tower also made me laugh which I can't say for many games over the past few years.
I understand what you’re saying about not being able to progress when not engaging with certain mechanics, but this can be a slippery slope. IMO core fundamentals should always be the primary focus when building a game, then special abilities and flashier skills should be cake on top, but these skills shouldn’t always be mandatory either. Otherwise the game will lack freedom of personal style of gameplay. For you it’s parrying for example, you hate having to be forced into using it to progress. It’s a delicate balance that I find most mainstream devs seem to struggle with. SF6 has this problem. Great video.
Yeah i don't want everything to be mandatory. I want the general fun to be pushed. With lots of room for expansion, creativity, and experimentation on top.
I am not sure if you play classic games mayo. On Your Own, you need to play Wario Land 2 (and3). If you think the game is easy, your not playing the right path. Once you finish the game once you get a stage map. Then you realize you missed 60% of the game. Then it gets hard and fun. Just go play no vid. For a fan you will love and appreciate WL2 just as i do. If your as good as i think you are you will find and beat the secret orb stage where you HAVE to KNOW ALL secret mechanics that are hidden through the game.... (Tip : sleep through the alarm clock 1 time.) Its on GB so emulate. Do this for me mayo, much love kepp up the awesome vids.
I'm not going to lie, I didn't like Pizza Tower for the same reasons everyone thought YOU weren't going to like Pizza Tower. I found the gameplay too easy, and I was so bored I didn't even get to the first boss. Destroying and navigating obstacles with your moves isn't that hard for me, so I never really found the soft checks pushing me to a fun zone.
that is why PIZZA TOWER & HIFI RUSH deserve more awards especially PIZZA TOWER should won the best debut indie & HIFI RUSH should also won the art direction award
I remember how i enjoyed KH3 more when i disabled the Disney rides during combat. They trivialized most combat encountered and ware just tedious to have to engage whit so often as they poped up way to often.
Great take on challenge and what it needs to mean to be fun. I know not everyone thinks this way, but I totally identify with it. I fell in love with rogue legacy 2 for quite a while when it was still in beta for this exact reason. It takes a lot to master it because of the likelihood of playing with handicaps and learning how to use each style of play. Rogue-like games are bizarre to me though because you build a better character every time you die, which gives you a better chance for your next run. I'm used to the old school games like megaman that are completely unforgiving and demand that you learn the game or just fail.
Oh boy, seeing a new installment on this series while playing MGS2 and 3 again through the Master Collection was a fascinating experience. With MGS3, on my recent playthrough on normal is that the game can be broken harder than Bane did to Batman's back. MGS3 is a game that literally needs you to play with handicaps in order to have any challenge or tension out of. I can picture a European Extreme playthough being popular because on normal with the ablity to continue the game after being seen, you can just CQC slam every guard in the game even riot shield users. The AI is stupid as bricks and partner that with the healing factor and how the stamina meter doesn't account for CQC attacks or damage taken and I am pratically a judo throwing Wolverine. You can use loud weapons and enemies will have a hard time knowing the exact location where the sound came from. You can kill guards with a loud pistol from a bush and they won't even spot you. The cure system only needs to be accounted for during boss fights since Snake's healing factor can cure the wounds on their own, slowly but eventually. Also, if you die, you respawn in the last room you entered from with the alert resetted so if you get caught and end up in a room close to the objective and then die in the off chance that happens, you will respawn in the room you died in. So what very little tension and challenge there was already is now destroyed burnt to ashes. That's not even including how cutscenes can cancel out most alerts, and only some of them you need to reach a caution phase for and that's easy since you can break line of sight, hide in a spot and then instantly CQC slam guards who come close to you. It's pure comedy. I would try to play the game without doing what I described, but the AI is super inconsistent and you have no visiblity indicator outside of the camo index and since there is no soliton radar or the detection arrows from MGS5, it easy to bump into and randomly get spotted. So then I just do what I did above. MGS3 might have dated controls and mechanics but esstentially pressing the left analog stick up and circle and occasionally rolling into enemies are your best friends for the "stealth". The most tense part of the game is when your knife is taken away from you and you can't CQC slam anymore but the respawning thing I mentioned still destroys the tension, and you get your knife back after you beat the Sorrow and it's back to the same tactics. MGS2 was mainly broken by first person aiming and the tranq gun while MGS3 has first person aiming as well as easy to abuse melee options. MGS1 might feel a bit "dated" but that game felt more balanced compared to 2 and 3. MGS1 is probably the most challenging game in the series due to the lack of a dodge button and being able to aim your gun or the lack of melee options but MGS2 and 3 are more than beatable enough and I honestly find to be too easy to the point of being dull. I normally get a bit annoyed when dying in any game but MGS2 and 3 I welcomed it since on the default difficulty setting has gameplay that is easily broken. I find it strange how MGS5 gets ripped apart because you can "cheese" it but MGS2 and 3 on normal has no tension due to what I described.
@@morkgin2459 MGS1 isn't balanced either, it's just more so compared to 2, 3 and 4. MGS3's "stealth" gameplay is the video game version of a dumb 80s cartoon.
@@morkgin2459 If you want super boring gameplay then sure. God forbid a stealth game where I actually have to use stealth to get further into the game. Nice job ignoring my huge list worth of compliants. If you want a piss easy game where you aren't forced into the fun zone then maybe you shouldn't be watching Mayo. Good strawman too.
Have you tried Nex Machina? It is a top down shooter that requires high mastery if you want to overcome it at high levels of difficulty (It has 5 levels), regardless of the score.
Since you liked Pizza Tower and Celeste so much, you really should get into Kaizo Mario, which I mentioned under the previous video. It's the equivalent of Doom Eternal of platformers in terms of accountability and micromanagment in moment to moment decisions. If done good (since it's created by various people), Kaizo Mario is literally impossible to cheese or even play without engaging with all of the mechanics.
There are also some great kaizo Pizza Tower mods. Haven't played them myself but they look really fun and push the game to its limits with usage of already existing mechanics in a way that wasn't explored in the base game.
I'm not sure if Kaizo Mario is the best recommendation. By design, its difficulty is incredibly unfair and basically expects you to be using savestates.
@@MrMadXenomorph Then what exactly separates a Kaizo mod from any other sort of fanmade level set? Any time I've ever heard the word "Kaizo", it's in reference to absolutely absurd and ridiculous levels of difficulty.
@@LanceOmikron Kaizo basically means "difficult with a lot of shelljumps, throws and falling platforms". Most of Kaizo levels are pretty approachable, kinda like Arc Complex master level. Of course they're nothing alike, I'm just comparing the difficulty in terms of their game mechanics.
As someone that is 100%'ing Pizza Tower I get what you're saying about the lack of challenge. The only challenge is trying to get the highest rank in the game (There is an achievement that you have to beat a level in one try...if you know you know)
And I'm glad however many pizza tower fans that have seen this aren't upset about me pointing it out. The video isn't about criticizing the design, it's about praising them for taking that design and still pushing fun fast play.
Given how you praised hifi rush, I was expecting the Ultrakill community to come in here up in anger but the comments seemed positive overall. Good video.
I actually disagree with your point about Warstride locking progress, but that's because I'm a Trackmania player and those games are notorious for making you master the entire game before you can access all the courses. If Pizza Tower had forced A, S or even P ranks in order to get to the bosses I think a lot of people would have dropped it halfway through
i'd really like to see your stance on how sonic adventure 2 utilizes ranking systems, it's a really divisive but in my opinion really fun game with a fantastic use of its ranking system so
Hi Mayo, I'd love to hear your thoughts on Hotline Miami. I have no doubt you've heard of it, it's a rather popular action game. I think you'd like it! Engaging, challenging, and stylish with a fantastic soundtrack.
you should check out 9 monkeys of shaolin at some point, its a beat em up game that feels quite similar to SIFU, and has some juggling mechanics and such.
i'm very interested to hear your opinion about Neon White if you ever get to play it. it was either it or warstride challenges that made me addicted to mastery and i think neon white was so good at putting me in the fun zone. i couldn't move on without getting platinum on ever level. nicely done video once again. looking forward to your games of the year video
Hey mayo great video as always but off topic there is a game I think you would appreciate its very underrated in my opinion its called lost in vivo and its on steam. Its a survival horror game with the silent Hill vibe to it with ps1 style graphics.
I don't think that's true at all. It just depends on what the fun zone is. The fun zone of RE2 remake is exploration, resource management, backtracking, inventory management. And it was a hit. You just gotta have a good fun zone and get people there the right way.
@@underthemayo I think it's more apt to say that customers don't want to be punished for not being in the fun zone. If the overabundance of RPGs and sandboxes in the modern era have shown anything is that they want to be able to make decisions by themselves and not be harshly punished. RE2's Normal Mode is set up in a way that gives you just the right amount of resources for the player to have this freedom. If the game only had Very Hard mode where they're more scarse, I don't think the game would've been received as amicably as it was.
Pizza Tower is a really rewarding game to master, but having levels locked behind ranks for a normal casual playthrough wouldn’t make the game better to play, it’s based on Wario Land. You didn’t even mention how progression is actually tied to Toppins. You have to get a certain amount to buy the elevator to the next world, but it’s pretty lenient, you don’t have to get all of them. So it still makes you engage with the game by making you collect stuff, just like Wario Land. I get where you’re coming from with your theories about design, but they just sound like they’d alienate some players. The Hotline Miami games are wonderful, and kind of popularized this type of score attack combo genre. Score is still completely optional for a casual first playthrough. You can camp in corners. And they’re still some of the best games ever made. a game can appeal to different types of players so that it can be lenient on a casual playthrough, while still having optional challenge for people who really want to master it. If anything that would feel better to do it optionally instead of being forced to. Cuz it’s your choice.
I don't know what I would seriously call perfect at this point. But since my main focus is the first time player experience it's hard to get better than RE1 Remake, Streets Of Rage 4, Doom Eternal, and RE4 Remake in terms of gameplay. But then I also wanna say Factorio and Slay The Spire.
They will learn to love it. Or maybe 🤔 they will say it's not for them. Both are acceptable. You want a group of people to like your game not everyone. I guess this comment doesn't need to exist but imma post it anyway.
@@underthemayo 1,000,000 was an incredible intro to the game with the first boss. Perfect drug was an amazing finish. I’m just wondering which one you thought was better
Support me on Patreon: patreon.com/underthemayo
Mayo merch here! teespring.com/stores/underthemayo
TH-cam Memberships to my channel now available, click the "Join" button.
Follow me on Twitch at twitch.tv/underthemayo
You know style meter giving out buffs is pretty cool. While people will have fun with style meter that don't do that I can see those same people having fun with a style meter that unlocks a giant Lazer move mid combat if they get SSS ...and then hitting enemies with it gives them SSS+ unlocking more moves or something.
It sounds to fun not to tryout at least once.
Also there are so many games doing sonic better than sonic. At this point I haft to concede that the old dog even when learning new tricks just can't stick the landing in a way I'm expecting.
Something worth noting; iirc, in earlier builds of pizza tower, boss doors WERE restricted by, at the very least, point requirements (that in turn affected your overall level rank). From what I remember, they changed it to be more accommodating to people who wanted to play it more like a standard "get to the end" platformer (altho i could be misremembering).
Big agree otherwise though. It definitely does a good job at getting players aquainted with the faster playstyle higher ranks require (although i wish p ranking wasn't so damn strict personally, but ill admit im just not good at the game in general lol)
I was gonna mention about the points requirement thingie for bosses. Yee early days of the release of Pizza Tower they lowered the toppings requirements, which I found silly tbh.
I didn't have a problem with getting enough to progress mostly because I just explored much as possible (Playing 2D Sonic and Wario Land helps lol), but I think it's a good way to get newbies to explore and perhaps prepare them the challenge of the P ranks.
Some of them are complete bastards to do, but god damn it helped to push me to enjoy the game even further. Hell, I even got all the achievements and the holy shit ranking at the end of the game.
With the case of Mayo, it's definitely a personal thing and I can agree with that. I love that the game requires you to use a move or technique, and then asks "Ok how do you string that together?"
It's a cool game
I’ve played through Pizza Tower and P-Ranked every single level, loved it.
I do see the criticism and do wish that later levels were locked behind a certain amount of A ranks or even a few S ranks.
But I do say that I do think the game was designed with the P-rank in mind with the rest of the ranks being so that it isn’t necessarily skill-gated away from everyone else. I do think Pizza Tower is at its most fun when trying to P-rank the levels, but if you didn’t want to try it, that’s fine. I’m glad you still liked it regardless, Mayo. It’s my personal game of the year.
I loved Pizza Tower and I can't wait for Antonblast
I actually didnt think much about it before but what you pointed out actually makes a lot of sense to me. I always wondered why some games asks you to do these simple actions that I as a player have already learned and personally been using for a while. I kind of thought of them just a simple interaction so player has to press button instead of just moving. But if I think about it the way you said it's a pretty smart way to remind players of mechanics that they might have not been using.
You should check out Rain World. That game doesn't let you progress until you repeatedly survive the current area. I found it really frustrating tbh. Surviving once or twice was great, but when you get to the point you need to survive like 5 cycles, and every time you fail, you have to successfully replay the area again, it can become a nightmare.
To survive you need to explore and find enough food, then return to a safe area while avoiding being eaten, oh hat's right, you die in 1 hit from any number of wildlife in the area that are actively trying to eat you lol.
See this is why i like your videos and your channel so much, i'm not a game designer, but i'd like to make a game one day, and to see someone like you give an explanation about the fact that there's a different way of teaching players the games mechanics than just forcing them to use those mechanics to survive is kind of eye opening, it's the kind of information that i wouldn't get from any other channel i feel because there's not many other people who talk about game mechanics in this way, usually it's just nonsense focusing on the overall philosophy of the combat, or the feel of it, the themes behind certain decisions of the game design, whatever, sure these things are important too, but i wanna know what makes games actually work, both the big picture stuff and the small details that make everything click together, and what you talk about is useful in learning that i think, so thank you mayo.
Seeing Ninja Gaiden in here makes me want to see what you'd think about Nioh 2 if you gave it a good 50-100 hours to explore the whole combat system and all the enemies. It's such a weird game conceptually from a design standpoint, where it sort of goes through phases as you get better and learn more mechanics, gradually going from "Dark Souls but Japanese" to "Oh my god this is actually Diablo?" to "Yokai Infinite Combo Style Master" as you realize just how many mechanics are essentially optional if you just get gud.
Hi Fi Rush was fantastic, and then it introduced parrying, and the fun diminished. And then parrying became the central mechanic, and the fun stopped. And then there was an entire boss fight about parrying and the fun went away completely. I don't know why so many of these types of games get completely stuck on parrying, to the point where it's not optional and it's *the* major component of so many of the fights, it's a real shame watching a game you loved just devolve into custard.
I don't mind parrying but I do think it has become extremely overused as a defensive mechanic in action games recently, same with the dark souls dodge roll
I really want to go deep into both of these games and make a video about them. Not only did both of them come out literally a day apart from each other in January of this year, but they both resemble the '90s and the 2000s in my eyes. They are also both sadly only digital and I do hope for both of them that they get a physical release in the future!
So maybe if ultrakill had a locked door which you had open by using combo using a coin, then maybe it will make the player curious to try out the combos themselves ? I remember DMC 3 having a challenge of staying in the air for 20 secs that made me look up jump cancel and bayo 1 having challenges where I can damage the enemies using only wicked weaves, the down side is that you have explore to find this challenges and I just happened to find them. The 2 games also had rewards for these challenges like gettings halos or red orbs for upgrades.
I think little things like that would be great for Act 1 of ultrakill. Quickly timed doors, moments of required parrying. There's all kinds of stuff you can do to show off your mechanics.
@@underthemayo..........this.......this comment right here shows you how much you suck at the game
I DON'T EVEN HAVE IT AND IM TALKING SHIT THAT SHOWS HOW MUCH YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT GAMES
@@underthemayousually i dont agree with reviewers such as yourself but i agree. if a door or exit to a level had a required style meter level (for the first time playing the level only) i think it would be really good for new players to learn to play
Seeing your thoughts on how Pizza Tower pushes players into it's gameplay loop, I'd *really* be interested to see you opinion on Spark the Electric Jester 3.
It's also a platformer with an emphasis on speed and, since you enjoyed Pizza Tower, You might enjoy it too.
OH YEAH!
Pizza Tower! This right here is my personal GOTY!
Pizza Tower is pure unadulterated whacky *** oldschool platformer fun. It wears its sources on its sleeve and has nigh infinite room for improvement but is fun at any level of skill. It's also the ultimate counter argument to anti-skill and learning features in games. Especially considering it was basically made by ONE guy.
Dustforce is a cool platformer game that leans pretty heavily on the style / scoring thing. You can't fail levels but you have to beat them with a high ranking (high completion + few mistakes) to unlock more levels, and unlocking everything requires getting perfect scores. Also has a hub world where some levels can only be accessed by doing tricky jumps or advanced movement which is pretty interesting.
Only issue is that it's pretty light on the tutorials; there is some simple speed tech that makes it really fun to play but it's hard to figure out how to do it unless you look it up online.
I agree, pizza is unbelievably important to game design. Most don’t understand sadly.
Two best games that came out this year, and I still need to play them.
Spider-Man 2 actually did a good job at forcing you to play well better than I expected it to especially for the kind of game it was. Your health pool is small as hell on the default setting and enemies were numerous and it forced me to use the gun disarm, gadgets and special moves. And since your health pool was also really small, I often contemplated on whether I should use a finisher to take out an enemy or heal myself in case I accidentally got hit. I had to use the parry too and had to be even better at dodging. Enemies were attacking you from all sides and I had to priortize which enemies to take out. The game had it's problems but in terms of combat, I think it's an improvement over the previous games as well as the Batman Arkham series.
Spider-Man 2 kind of felt like Doom Eternal in how the difficulty was upped compared to their respective first games.
I would say this is true only for the bosses, not for regular combat where enemies are still very easy to deal with even on the hardest difficulty
@@aadipie
I belined it for the main story quests and regular goons at least ripped my health bar in half after 2 hits. The regular enemies did at the very least force me to move a lot, and the low health pool forced me to play better. The bosses can get pretty challenging where in say Batman Arkham and Middle Earth games, they usually aren't tough on their own.
the only thing spiderman 2 did well was having a high ESG score.
Spiderman lmao
@@ghoulbuster1
Nice arugmentation. You seem very smart
I’m also happy that these games (and Robocop) aren’t long games. Lately I’d rather have a lean, mean ten hour game I can easily replay than a hundred hour AAA game I only play once because it’s bloated and overstays its welcome.
I think visual design and the way it feels to play the game is also important for getting into the fun zone. If the game somewhat stumbles getting the player into its mechanics, sometimes the visual appeal can kinda make up for that if the mechanics are tight. Like in DMC. Yes, locking higher difficulties is not a great choice, but when I see how DMC presents itself, I cannot help but engage with everything it has to offer. It just looks great, and it feels right. But DMC4, for example, does not appeal to me at all with its presentation, so I did not really get into it, unlike 1, 3 and 5.
Or Shadow Warrior 3, for example. Its design is similar to Doom Eternal, it gets everything right when it comes to mechanics and their integration. But the visual design and overall presentation are so unappealing to me that I've beaten it once and will never replay it again, unlike DE, which I am replaying right now and having tons of fun. I guess the way to the fun zone depends entirely on a person.
As someone who adores Pizza Tower, I understand your point of view. It does lack the "consequences", but I got engaged if not addicted to the controls and pacing of each level. I grew up with platformers like DKC2 and Wario Land 4 is, unlike Pizza Tower, using a failure state but isn't as punishing as the Second Lap runs from the indie title.
To me, this is what I want from Sonic the Hedgehog, which I never got because I never felt like the game was designed to accomodate the new player in its gameplay. I just never got into it. Pizza Tower also made me laugh which I can't say for many games over the past few years.
Yeah the humor and wackiness is pretty good. Every level having different powers keeps it fresh too.
I don't agree with a lot of your opinions about games but I really enjoy your content..it's very thoughtful..good sh*t man
I understand what you’re saying about not being able to progress when not engaging with certain mechanics, but this can be a slippery slope. IMO core fundamentals should always be the primary focus when building a game, then special abilities and flashier skills should be cake on top, but these skills shouldn’t always be mandatory either. Otherwise the game will lack freedom of personal style of gameplay. For you it’s parrying for example, you hate having to be forced into using it to progress. It’s a delicate balance that I find most mainstream devs seem to struggle with. SF6 has this problem. Great video.
Yeah i don't want everything to be mandatory. I want the general fun to be pushed. With lots of room for expansion, creativity, and experimentation on top.
I am not sure if you play classic games mayo. On Your Own, you need to play Wario Land 2 (and3). If you think the game is easy, your not playing the right path. Once you finish the game once you get a stage map. Then you realize you missed 60% of the game. Then it gets hard and fun. Just go play no vid. For a fan you will love and appreciate WL2 just as i do. If your as good as i think you are you will find and beat the secret orb stage where you HAVE to KNOW ALL secret mechanics that are hidden through the game.... (Tip : sleep through the alarm clock 1 time.) Its on GB so emulate. Do this for me mayo, much love kepp up the awesome vids.
zased condomate man explains why every game needs to have pizza now
I'm not going to lie, I didn't like Pizza Tower for the same reasons everyone thought YOU weren't going to like Pizza Tower. I found the gameplay too easy, and I was so bored I didn't even get to the first boss. Destroying and navigating obstacles with your moves isn't that hard for me, so I never really found the soft checks pushing me to a fun zone.
that is why PIZZA TOWER & HIFI RUSH deserve more awards especially PIZZA TOWER should won the best debut indie & HIFI RUSH should also won the art direction award
Nah bro, fuck him 😂Ya saw how bro was seething 💀
Can't believe the best games of the year were released in January, should've end the year right there.
@@garsedj were facts right there LOL
I remember how i enjoyed KH3 more when i disabled the Disney rides during combat. They trivialized most combat encountered and ware just tedious to have to engage whit so often as they poped up way to often.
I am currently making a game with a style meter and I think I am going to do something like the hitstreak bonuses in metal hellsinger
Great take on challenge and what it needs to mean to be fun. I know not everyone thinks this way, but I totally identify with it. I fell in love with rogue legacy 2 for quite a while when it was still in beta for this exact reason. It takes a lot to master it because of the likelihood of playing with handicaps and learning how to use each style of play. Rogue-like games are bizarre to me though because you build a better character every time you die, which gives you a better chance for your next run. I'm used to the old school games like megaman that are completely unforgiving and demand that you learn the game or just fail.
Man, making games is hard. Tells you the level of skill devs used to have in the PS1/PS2 era.
Pizza tower just looks so nice and charming
Imma let you finish.. But Pizza Tower should have won best Indie game!
These are my favorite videos from you dude, keep it up
Oh boy, seeing a new installment on this series while playing MGS2 and 3 again through the Master Collection was a fascinating experience. With MGS3, on my recent playthrough on normal is that the game can be broken harder than Bane did to Batman's back. MGS3 is a game that literally needs you to play with handicaps in order to have any challenge or tension out of. I can picture a European Extreme playthough being popular because on normal with the ablity to continue the game after being seen, you can just CQC slam every guard in the game even riot shield users. The AI is stupid as bricks and partner that with the healing factor and how the stamina meter doesn't account for CQC attacks or damage taken and I am pratically a judo throwing Wolverine. You can use loud weapons and enemies will have a hard time knowing the exact location where the sound came from. You can kill guards with a loud pistol from a bush and they won't even spot you. The cure system only needs to be accounted for during boss fights since Snake's healing factor can cure the wounds on their own, slowly but eventually. Also, if you die, you respawn in the last room you entered from with the alert resetted so if you get caught and end up in a room close to the objective and then die in the off chance that happens, you will respawn in the room you died in. So what very little tension and challenge there was already is now destroyed burnt to ashes.
That's not even including how cutscenes can cancel out most alerts, and only some of them you need to reach a caution phase for and that's easy since you can break line of sight, hide in a spot and then instantly CQC slam guards who come close to you. It's pure comedy.
I would try to play the game without doing what I described, but the AI is super inconsistent and you have no visiblity indicator outside of the camo index and since there is no soliton radar or the detection arrows from MGS5, it easy to bump into and randomly get spotted. So then I just do what I did above. MGS3 might have dated controls and mechanics but esstentially pressing the left analog stick up and circle and occasionally rolling into enemies are your best friends for the "stealth". The most tense part of the game is when your knife is taken away from you and you can't CQC slam anymore but the respawning thing I mentioned still destroys the tension, and you get your knife back after you beat the Sorrow and it's back to the same tactics.
MGS2 was mainly broken by first person aiming and the tranq gun while MGS3 has first person aiming as well as easy to abuse melee options.
MGS1 might feel a bit "dated" but that game felt more balanced compared to 2 and 3.
MGS1 is probably the most challenging game in the series due to the lack of a dodge button and being able to aim your gun or the lack of melee options but MGS2 and 3 are more than beatable enough and I honestly find to be too easy to the point of being dull. I normally get a bit annoyed when dying in any game but MGS2 and 3 I welcomed it since on the default difficulty setting has gameplay that is easily broken.
I find it strange how MGS5 gets ripped apart because you can "cheese" it but MGS2 and 3 on normal has no tension due to what I described.
If you want to get MGS1 type of balance, piss poor easy would be still way better
@@morkgin2459
MGS1 isn't balanced either, it's just more so compared to 2, 3 and 4.
MGS3's "stealth" gameplay is the video game version of a dumb 80s cartoon.
@@civilwarfare101 okay sure but first person aiming and tranq gun are good things.
@@morkgin2459
If you want super boring gameplay then sure. God forbid a stealth game where I actually have to use stealth to get further into the game. Nice job ignoring my huge list worth of compliants. If you want a piss easy game where you aren't forced into the fun zone then maybe you shouldn't be watching Mayo. Good strawman too.
@@civilwarfare101 none of the mgs games are like that. Better play thief or splinter cell.
Have you tried Nex Machina? It is a top down shooter that requires high mastery if you want to overcome it at high levels of difficulty (It has 5 levels), regardless of the score.
Since you liked Pizza Tower and Celeste so much, you really should get into Kaizo Mario, which I mentioned under the previous video. It's the equivalent of Doom Eternal of platformers in terms of accountability and micromanagment in moment to moment decisions. If done good (since it's created by various people), Kaizo Mario is literally impossible to cheese or even play without engaging with all of the mechanics.
There are also some great kaizo Pizza Tower mods. Haven't played them myself but they look really fun and push the game to its limits with usage of already existing mechanics in a way that wasn't explored in the base game.
I'm not sure if Kaizo Mario is the best recommendation. By design, its difficulty is incredibly unfair and basically expects you to be using savestates.
@@LanceOmikronNot all Kaizo levels/mods are brutally hard.
@@MrMadXenomorph Then what exactly separates a Kaizo mod from any other sort of fanmade level set? Any time I've ever heard the word "Kaizo", it's in reference to absolutely absurd and ridiculous levels of difficulty.
@@LanceOmikron Kaizo basically means "difficult with a lot of shelljumps, throws and falling platforms". Most of Kaizo levels are pretty approachable, kinda like Arc Complex master level. Of course they're nothing alike, I'm just comparing the difficulty in terms of their game mechanics.
Nice video as always. Thanks
I have seen people play PT for the first time and most will never complete a P rank.
Gotta remember not everyone is a giga chad pro speedrun gamer.
As someone that is 100%'ing Pizza Tower I get what you're saying about the lack of challenge. The only challenge is trying to get the highest rank in the game (There is an achievement that you have to beat a level in one try...if you know you know)
And I'm glad however many pizza tower fans that have seen this aren't upset about me pointing it out. The video isn't about criticizing the design, it's about praising them for taking that design and still pushing fun fast play.
Wake up babe, Mr. Mayonnaise just posted another quality content
never change mayo i love your stuff
AND I LOVE ABEL
Which Ninja game is shown? Is that Ninja Gaiden? If so which version is the best to get on PC? I always wanted to try those games.
It's the ninja gaiden sigma remaster for pc
Given how you praised hifi rush, I was expecting the Ultrakill community to come in here up in anger but the comments seemed positive overall. Good video.
Hi fi rush does everything I wanted ultrakill to do in its first act. I loved how it was hard to ignore the fun mechanics while learning.
I actually disagree with your point about Warstride locking progress, but that's because I'm a Trackmania player and those games are notorious for making you master the entire game before you can access all the courses. If Pizza Tower had forced A, S or even P ranks in order to get to the bosses I think a lot of people would have dropped it halfway through
That's why I suggested a second difficulty level, not a forced mode for everyone.
@@underthemayo Ah, that makes more sense.
Anyone know the background music playing in the video? at 2:30
i'd really like to see your stance on how sonic adventure 2 utilizes ranking systems, it's a really divisive but in my opinion really fun game with a fantastic use of its ranking system so
I swear to God I've played that game so many times yet I never understood how it really works
Very nice!
Hi Mayo, I'd love to hear your thoughts on Hotline Miami. I have no doubt you've heard of it, it's a rather popular action game. I think you'd like it! Engaging, challenging, and stylish with a fantastic soundtrack.
you should check out 9 monkeys of shaolin at some point, its a beat em up game that feels quite similar to SIFU, and has some juggling mechanics and such.
i'm very interested to hear your opinion about Neon White if you ever get to play it. it was either it or warstride challenges that made me addicted to mastery and i think neon white was so good at putting me in the fun zone. i couldn't move on without getting platinum on ever level. nicely done video once again. looking forward to your games of the year video
Nuh uh! Pizza Tower isn't good because the combo system doesn't affect gameplay, and you dont have ammo pickups around the maps!
I would like to see Mayo do a full dedicated video on Ninja Gaiden. That would be sweet. I love that game. 🙏❤😅
Hey mayo great video as always but off topic there is a game I think you would appreciate its very underrated in my opinion its called lost in vivo and its on steam. Its a survival horror game with the silent Hill vibe to it with ps1 style graphics.
yeah lost in vivo is definitely on the list.
@@underthemayo awesome
I'm curious if you'll have fun with the weird game known as neon white.
It's on the list
The problem with forcing people into the fun zone... is that most customers don't wanna be there.
I don't think that's true at all. It just depends on what the fun zone is. The fun zone of RE2 remake is exploration, resource management, backtracking, inventory management. And it was a hit. You just gotta have a good fun zone and get people there the right way.
@@underthemayo I think it's more apt to say that customers don't want to be punished for not being in the fun zone. If the overabundance of RPGs and sandboxes in the modern era have shown anything is that they want to be able to make decisions by themselves and not be harshly punished. RE2's Normal Mode is set up in a way that gives you just the right amount of resources for the player to have this freedom. If the game only had Very Hard mode where they're more scarse, I don't think the game would've been received as amicably as it was.
Are you covering Valhala? IS purê gameplay and theres no boi to be found, i would love to hear your thoughts on it
Definitely not pure gameplay but yeah I might cover it
@@underthemayo theres a story for sure but its way less intrusive
Pizza Tower is a really rewarding game to master, but having levels locked behind ranks for a normal casual playthrough wouldn’t make the game better to play, it’s based on Wario Land. You didn’t even mention how progression is actually tied to Toppins. You have to get a certain amount to buy the elevator to the next world, but it’s pretty lenient, you don’t have to get all of them. So it still makes you engage with the game by making you collect stuff, just like Wario Land. I get where you’re coming from with your theories about design, but they just sound like they’d alienate some players. The Hotline Miami games are wonderful, and kind of popularized this type of score attack combo genre. Score is still completely optional for a casual first playthrough. You can camp in corners. And they’re still some of the best games ever made. a game can appeal to different types of players so that it can be lenient on a casual playthrough, while still having optional challenge for people who really want to master it. If anything that would feel better to do it optionally instead of being forced to. Cuz it’s your choice.
So Mayo, what is your perfect game?
I don't know what I would seriously call perfect at this point. But since my main focus is the first time player experience it's hard to get better than RE1 Remake, Streets Of Rage 4, Doom Eternal, and RE4 Remake in terms of gameplay. But then I also wanna say Factorio and Slay The Spire.
@@underthemayoI'm interested in seeing a factorio video from you, seems pretty different from the usual genres you cover.
Have you played cocoon mayo? Good video aswell.
Great video
They will learn to love it. Or maybe 🤔 they will say it's not for them. Both are acceptable. You want a group of people to like your game not everyone.
I guess this comment doesn't need to exist but imma post it anyway.
Which NIN song did it better in your opinion?
what do you mean did it better?
@@underthemayo 1,000,000 was an incredible intro to the game with the first boss. Perfect drug was an amazing finish. I’m just wondering which one you thought was better
I actually got burned out on the game a couple levels before the end so I didn't get to experience it :( @@GertyFlings
Which NIN bossfight did it better lol, 1M or perfect drug haha
@@underthemayo gotcha, well if you ever revisit, you’ll get an awesome final boss theme 👊
I have an idea for a video:
"Reviving a franchise: Where the Dead Space remake succeeded where the Saints Row Reboot failed"
You're not getting me to play the saints row reboot.
@@underthemayo trust me you should avoid that piece of shit at all costs
The textbook example of how not to revive a dormant franchise
You should play Fury
I did. It's shown here.
i suggest fenyx rising, best ubisoft game since assassins creed 1, hell only good ubisoft game since ac1 ^^'
Good video :)
Shit game old man
comment
Algo comment < 3
FIRST
Okay charged pistol guy
Ultrakill's first act is horribly balanced and paced. Pew pew mfer.
Hey mayo could try tekken 8? As I saw that you also played mortal kombat and was curios what you thought of the games mechanics.