Public sector utility manager here. I’ve worked with dozens of attorneys over my career from the whole range of schools. For the “bread and butter” support, seems that the person rather than the school matters most. But … the best litigator who ever worked for us was a Harvard Law graduate. For whatever reason, she was always two steps ahead and quicker than everyone else. She joked that she felt obligated to spend 10 years in public service to make amends for all the evil things she did in the private sector. I’m not so sure it was a joke.
I think she wanted to work 10 years in public service because you get some loan forgiveness if you were 10 years in public service. So really probably was just about money.
Thanks for this really truthful answer. I went to a not** so highly ranked school for undergrad that also has a great law school but as I observed, people attended there for really specific kinds of law like family law and even immigration law.
Another way to read the visual ... You have a wider range of options at the higher end of the mug. If you start too low on the mug a net stops you from rising higher. If the mug is full, the weight of the liquid is felt more heavily at the bottom of the mug. Options expanded dramatically during the time I spent at BigLaw.
I work as a compliance analyst in an Investment bank. Considering going to law school (it was always a goal of mine). Your videos are always so helpful and informative.
Not directly related but That's how privilege works (in visual metaphor). The more privileged you are, the less work you have to do by comparison. But you still have to work.
@@nataliamedina9311 Ok but consider this. Poorer people usually cannot afford to take time off work to spend time only studying. Poorer people usually do not know people in their circle who went to these schools and can give them help and support in their application. Therefore if you are coming from a less privileged background you will always have to exert more effort (ie. Work while studying, make more effort to network, research ways to fund your degree etc). Always.
@@MesRevesEnRose well it is true that you have to work your way from the bottom if you come from a lower income family. Which is why we try to pass our wealth down the generations so the next gen could have a better life. And as for what you said yes you'd have to work harder but in the end the money's gonna be worth it
This is interesting … I am going to look into the background of all the Justices I currently work with, then into the ones who got appointed Supreme Court Justice..
For those seeking private employment in hopes of a lucrative career - you either have to go to a prestigious law school and get decent/good grades or go to a second/third tier law school and finish at or near the the top of your class. If you go to a mediocre law school and are not on Law Review or Journal, you'll be stuck at a small firm (at best) while paying thousands of dollars in tuition and the opportunity cost of lost wages in another career. In other words, if your undergraduate GPA is less than 3.5 and your LSAT score is lower than 160, you may want to think twice before spending the time and money on law school. There are way too many lawyers because the barrier to entry is so low and people have watched one too many episodes of Law and Order.
The thing is, no one in real life would tell you "You work for criminal defense at a small private practice instead of Kirkland &Ellis? You must be dumb" That's incredibly narcissistic and not many ppl outside the legal industry even know about biglaw. I don't really understand why you have to die for prestige in law school when being a lawyer is prestigious in itself.. I'd rather have a sustainable lifestyle and work for an area I love rather than burning out within few years at big law and becoming unemployed..
Except people who leave biglaw rarely leave “unemployed”. Using your example, someone who left Kirkland after a few years in criminal defense could land a job at either the DA’s office or a smaller firm.
I personally feel, people tend to put themselves at the top, it is called human ego. So, depending on the prestige of a law school is an easy way to do that. But, remember a top ranking university is way more general than an ivy league school. The comparison cannot be made with Harvard, while making a general statement about university rankings. I don’t think many lawyers or law students are boasting (except to make them more credible to others). What is important is that the law school provides excellent education and students manage themselves properly. Another thing is that the abilities that are tested for admission are very different. A random degree (required for admission) does not measure how one performs while practicing law (while they are helping others). Situations can be very different as well. A full time working parent (including a mother) can’t get as high of a mark during admissions. Even many young students have troubled finances. The more time and resources someone has before admissions becomes important. As far as SC judges are concerned, i believe that it would be roughly proportional to the number of graduates from each school over time. If anyone wants to volunteer to do that math, they are welcome. However, what I feel is more important is where the school is located. A better location serves better opportunities afterwards. 😊
I’m interested in Estate Planning & Probate Law…. I’d like a boutique high end firm… maybe employing up to 7-10 people. I’d also be interested in teaching as well. So, I think it still matters for me. I have zero contacts. I need to rub shoulders with the people who will have assets 😅.
Super subjective and personal question, but interested in your hot take because I enjoy your channel and how considerate you are in your content: I did pretty mediocre in undergrad (2.7), but went to a "public ivy" for undergrad where I was an unfocused biochemistry major and worked throughout to make ends meet. There may be some mental health struggles there, but I want to take responsibility for my performance. After recognizing all the signs I should switch to humanities, I switched to English, and graduated with a higher major GPA inside of a year. In the years since, I aspired to become a writer, and enrolled in a post-baccalaureate program with the goal of creating a portfolio for an MFA in Creative Writing or MS in Journalism, but became disenchanted due to not feeling like I would make the impact I want to make. After my bartending career was shut down with the rest of the world during COVID, I thought long and hard about what mattered to me when I was younger, and I remembered how much speech and debate mattered to me in high school, along with political and social advocacy. I enrolled in a Paralegal Studies Certificate program where I succeeded with a 4.0, and am now employed as a paralegal while studying for the LSAT. My practice tests are lately averaging around the 162 mark. I hope to bump that enough to be a super splitter, and go to a decent Tier 2 school, or at least a decent Tier 3 school, with the hopes of being at the top of my class for 1L and transferring to a better school after. Now here's my question: What would you realistically say my options are, and what would you recommend that I could do in the meantime to improvement them or at least get more insight?
law school admissions is 90% LSAT and GPA, so i would confer www.lsd.law/ to gauge which schools you should consider applying to. if you don't sleep on the written statements and interviews and rec letters, as well, some schools are pretty understanding about lower GPAs (but it will be a numbers game). the only thing you have control over right now is the LSAT, so i would really study hard for it to get as high of a score as possible. if you can get it to 173+, you could even throw a hail mary application to yale. banking on being top of your class 1L can be a bit of a gamble. i found grades to be pretty arbitrary at the end of the day, but if you are ready for the intensity and studying during 1L to try and get that top spot to transfer out, more power to you. just know that this route carries some risk. good luck!
You’re just making things hard for yourself. Unless you’re a paralegal which I believe in California you have to be for 7 years before they allow you to take the bar then this question is irrelevant cause you will work as an attorney where you’re a paralegal.
Here is an odd thought, maybe if you grasp or understand the basic concept of law it doesn’t depend on where you go to school. Yes you will have to overcome the prestige of your education choice. In the end exceptional grasp of law will pay off in your career choice.
biglaw is a type of employer, and they largely practice corporate law. midsize and small firms also practice corporate law, but usually with smaller corporations (and lower comp)
in-house roles at large companies typically require biglaw experience. some companies have training/rotational programs or other ways to become in-house counsel, though, but they are relatively rarer
@@CeceXie that makes sense. And what experience do companies look for on your resume when you’re first starting? Does big tech company experience help any? I’m coming from a SWE background and I’m not sure if I should put a lot of emphasis on this in my resume
only if it relates to the practice area you are trying to enter in law. law is like all jobs where relevant experience is the most important, so as long as you can tell a good story and give relevant experience. best prior experience for m&a lawyer would be different than for an IP lawyer, for example
Cece, So for instance even the chance to interview at a big law firm will go next to impossible given my less prestigious school? And what about aligning myself to big law money somewhere inside the profession, also slim to impossible?
@@jr-junior-b4674 Students at less prestigious schools can get interviews with biglaw firms-but to do so, they really need to stand out (~top 10% of the class). But it's also partly a question of geography-students at regional law schools in Florida would have a very difficult time getting an interview for NYC or LA or Chicago biglaw, whereas students at Brooklyn, Seton Hall, New York Law School, St. John's, Rutgers, Cardozo, etc. would be more likely to get those interviews (assuming they stand out). In contrast, at my high-ranked NYC-based law school, literally every student had the opportunity to interview with basically any NYC biglaw firm they wanted plus many firms hiring for Boston, Chicago, LA, Bay Area, etc. (though, of course, whether the students actually received a callback and an offer after they did the interview was, in part, a function of factors like grades).
it will be significantly harder--there are fewer interview slots for lower-ranked schools in biglaw. you can probably snag a few if you have great grades at a lower-ranked school, treat it as a numbers game, and don't get discouraged by nos. it's pretty hard to transition into biglaw if you didn't start in biglaw, but it's not impossible, especially during hot hiring markets like right now. that will largely depend on how strategic and successful you are post-graduation
Except in terms of resume, they definitely are. Trump’s appointees have very similar resumes to most other justices, having all clerked for justices themselves and done various stints in high level federal government positions, top law firms, and academia
I've always had an interest in law school. Recently, I've realized that I would work at GLAD or the ACLU or a similar firm that focuses on human rights and freedom for oppressed groups specifically. But law school is so expensive 😫 Are those considered big law so that the potential income balances the amount of work needed to get there?
no, but if you are really committed to working at least 10 years with the lower pay, some schools offer loan repayment assistance plans, and there’s also the federal public service loan forgiveness plan. if you are committed to public interest law, you really need to let go of the idea of a super comfortable life like your classmates in biglaw will have
This feels like it was relevant for many things in life.
It’s surprising how this isn’t just common sense to most people in this comment section
Public sector utility manager here. I’ve worked with dozens of attorneys over my career from the whole range of schools. For the “bread and butter” support, seems that the person rather than the school matters most. But … the best litigator who ever worked for us was a Harvard Law graduate. For whatever reason, she was always two steps ahead and quicker than everyone else. She joked that she felt obligated to spend 10 years in public service to make amends for all the evil things she did in the private sector. I’m not so sure it was a joke.
She sounds like Kim Wexler from BCS!
oh I can believe it, I work in law too and sadly, justice is not as "just" as the name implies!
I think she wanted to work 10 years in public service because you get some loan forgiveness if you were 10 years in public service. So really probably was just about money.
@@jayjayeffron8959 I don’t think so. She was on the older side. Probably 25 years out of law school.
@@OhNoNotAgain42 oh, OK well as long as she decided to really make an effort to use her gifts to help folks, then praise God
Thanks for this really truthful answer. I went to a not** so highly ranked school for undergrad that also has a great law school but as I observed, people attended there for really specific kinds of law like family law and even immigration law.
ofc! the worst thing is getting there and realizing that it doesn't enable you to do what you wanted to do
Another way to read the visual ... You have a wider range of options at the higher end of the mug. If you start too low on the mug a net stops you from rising higher. If the mug is full, the weight of the liquid is felt more heavily at the bottom of the mug. Options expanded dramatically during the time I spent at BigLaw.
"the weight of the liquid is felt more heavily at the bottom of the mug"--such a good expansion of the metaphor for economic downturns, etc!
I have interest in helping people but living a nice quiet life too! ❤
I work as a compliance analyst in an Investment bank. Considering going to law school (it was always a goal of mine). Your videos are always so helpful and informative.
Did you go to law school or apply yet
This was incredibly helpful, thank you!
Not directly related but That's how privilege works (in visual metaphor). The more privileged you are, the less work you have to do by comparison. But you still have to work.
Not necessarily. The harder you work and the higher ur lsat score, the greater ur chance to go a prestigious law school
@@nataliamedina9311 Ok but consider this. Poorer people usually cannot afford to take time off work to spend time only studying. Poorer people usually do not know people in their circle who went to these schools and can give them help and support in their application. Therefore if you are coming from a less privileged background you will always have to exert more effort (ie. Work while studying, make more effort to network, research ways to fund your degree etc). Always.
@@MesRevesEnRose well it is true that you have to work your way from the bottom if you come from a lower income family. Which is why we try to pass our wealth down the generations so the next gen could have a better life. And as for what you said yes you'd have to work harder but in the end the money's gonna be worth it
such an archaic way of thinking
This is an AMAZING analogy 🙌🙌🙌
Privilege, got it.
Bitterness in your heart got it
This is a great metaphor!
thank you! i thought a bit about how to explain it haha
In-house is the way to go! #worklifebalance
This is interesting … I am going to look into the background of all the Justices I currently work with, then into the ones who got appointed Supreme Court Justice..
For those seeking private employment in hopes of a lucrative career - you either have to go to a prestigious law school and get decent/good grades or go to a second/third tier law school and finish at or near the the top of your class.
If you go to a mediocre law school and are not on Law Review or Journal, you'll be stuck at a small firm (at best) while paying thousands of dollars in tuition and the opportunity cost of lost wages in another career. In other words, if your undergraduate GPA is less than 3.5 and your LSAT score is lower than 160, you may want to think twice before spending the time and money on law school.
There are way too many lawyers because the barrier to entry is so low and people have watched one too many episodes of Law and Order.
The thing is, no one in real life would tell you "You work for criminal defense at a small private practice instead of Kirkland &Ellis? You must be dumb" That's incredibly narcissistic and not many ppl outside the legal industry even know about biglaw. I don't really understand why you have to die for prestige in law school when being a lawyer is prestigious in itself.. I'd rather have a sustainable lifestyle and work for an area I love rather than burning out within few years at big law and becoming unemployed..
You need big law to pay of your debt quickly if you don’t get full ride
Except people who leave biglaw rarely leave “unemployed”. Using your example, someone who left Kirkland after a few years in criminal defense could land a job at either the DA’s office or a smaller firm.
@@bensonfang1868 Yes but I was talking about her.
I personally feel, people tend to put themselves at the top, it is called human ego. So, depending on the prestige of a law school is an easy way to do that. But, remember a top ranking university is way more general than an ivy league school. The comparison cannot be made with Harvard, while making a general statement about university rankings. I don’t think many lawyers or law students are boasting (except to make them more credible to others). What is important is that the law school provides excellent education and students manage themselves properly.
Another thing is that the abilities that are tested for admission are very different. A random degree (required for admission) does not measure how one performs while practicing law (while they are helping others). Situations can be very different as well. A full time working parent (including a mother) can’t get as high of a mark during admissions. Even many young students have troubled finances. The more time and resources someone has before admissions becomes important.
As far as SC judges are concerned, i believe that it would be roughly proportional to the number of graduates from each school over time. If anyone wants to volunteer to do that math, they are welcome.
However, what I feel is more important is where the school is located. A better location serves better opportunities afterwards. 😊
I went to a third tier law school. Represent!
To answer your last question....i suspect the overwhelming amount of ppl would reply: MONEY.....MONEY Cece! MONEY!
What's messed up.... Is that the price isn't that much different. Though scholly money changes a lot!
I’m interested in Estate Planning & Probate Law…. I’d like a boutique high end firm… maybe employing up to 7-10 people. I’d also be interested in teaching as well. So, I think it still matters for me. I have zero contacts. I need to rub shoulders with the people who will have assets 😅.
Super subjective and personal question, but interested in your hot take because I enjoy your channel and how considerate you are in your content:
I did pretty mediocre in undergrad (2.7), but went to a "public ivy" for undergrad where I was an unfocused biochemistry major and worked throughout to make ends meet. There may be some mental health struggles there, but I want to take responsibility for my performance. After recognizing all the signs I should switch to humanities, I switched to English, and graduated with a higher major GPA inside of a year.
In the years since, I aspired to become a writer, and enrolled in a post-baccalaureate program with the goal of creating a portfolio for an MFA in Creative Writing or MS in Journalism, but became disenchanted due to not feeling like I would make the impact I want to make.
After my bartending career was shut down with the rest of the world during COVID, I thought long and hard about what mattered to me when I was younger, and I remembered how much speech and debate mattered to me in high school, along with political and social advocacy. I enrolled in a Paralegal Studies Certificate program where I succeeded with a 4.0, and am now employed as a paralegal while studying for the LSAT.
My practice tests are lately averaging around the 162 mark. I hope to bump that enough to be a super splitter, and go to a decent Tier 2 school, or at least a decent Tier 3 school, with the hopes of being at the top of my class for 1L and transferring to a better school after.
Now here's my question: What would you realistically say my options are, and what would you recommend that I could do in the meantime to improvement them or at least get more insight?
law school admissions is 90% LSAT and GPA, so i would confer www.lsd.law/ to gauge which schools you should consider applying to. if you don't sleep on the written statements and interviews and rec letters, as well, some schools are pretty understanding about lower GPAs (but it will be a numbers game). the only thing you have control over right now is the LSAT, so i would really study hard for it to get as high of a score as possible. if you can get it to 173+, you could even throw a hail mary application to yale.
banking on being top of your class 1L can be a bit of a gamble. i found grades to be pretty arbitrary at the end of the day, but if you are ready for the intensity and studying during 1L to try and get that top spot to transfer out, more power to you. just know that this route carries some risk.
good luck!
I bet you can apply the same logic to everything in life ie
Does it mean I shouldn’t become a lawyer if I didn’t follow a thing she said?😅
A realistic answer. I like.
Thank you for this!!
any time!
This kinda relates to business schools too
I know people in low ranked schools become judges
What’s your opinion on CA and not needing to go to law school to become a lawyer?
You’re just making things hard for yourself. Unless you’re a paralegal which I believe in California you have to be for 7 years before they allow you to take the bar then this question is irrelevant cause you will work as an attorney where you’re a paralegal.
I go to the University of Southern California (USC). Where does it fall on the prestige ladder in your opinion?
prestige in the legal community closely tracks the US news & world report rankings!
just go to xoxohth --- T14 or bust
It's a great school!! Doesn't it outrank UCLA in big law placements
USC is one of the highest law schools in Cali
this is so elitist. this is why I hate law school.
Life in general is elitist. It’s really got nothing to do with law school in general. Prestigious beginnings equal higher success.
Great advice
When money is not an issue yes. It doesn't matter
Here is an odd thought, maybe if you grasp or understand the basic concept of law it doesn’t depend on where you go to school. Yes you will have to overcome the prestige of your education choice. In the end exceptional grasp of law will pay off in your career choice.
i totally agree, but unfortunately the industry does not perceive of it that way
The industry doesn’t see it that way. Look at the employment numbers from certain schools
Only problem is 💰😬
Lol Laughs in President Biden
It depends 🤣
Girl none of y'all are gonna be on scotus calm down
How hard is it to go into corporate law? Is that considered big law?
biglaw is a type of employer, and they largely practice corporate law. midsize and small firms also practice corporate law, but usually with smaller corporations (and lower comp)
@@CeceXie what about in-house?
in-house roles at large companies typically require biglaw experience. some companies have training/rotational programs or other ways to become in-house counsel, though, but they are relatively rarer
@@CeceXie that makes sense. And what experience do companies look for on your resume when you’re first starting? Does big tech company experience help any? I’m coming from a SWE background and I’m not sure if I should put a lot of emphasis on this in my resume
only if it relates to the practice area you are trying to enter in law. law is like all jobs where relevant experience is the most important, so as long as you can tell a good story and give relevant experience. best prior experience for m&a lawyer would be different than for an IP lawyer, for example
Cece,
So i understand with the less prestigious schools they demand more work and more effort yet will i be less prepared for big law??
yes--law school does not prepare you for legal practice. biglaw is mostly learning on the job
Cece,
So for instance even the chance to interview at a big law firm will go next to impossible given my less prestigious school? And what about aligning myself to big law money somewhere inside the profession, also slim to impossible?
@@jr-junior-b4674 Students at less prestigious schools can get interviews with biglaw firms-but to do so, they really need to stand out (~top 10% of the class). But it's also partly a question of geography-students at regional law schools in Florida would have a very difficult time getting an interview for NYC or LA or Chicago biglaw, whereas students at Brooklyn, Seton Hall, New York Law School, St. John's, Rutgers, Cardozo, etc. would be more likely to get those interviews (assuming they stand out). In contrast, at my high-ranked NYC-based law school, literally every student had the opportunity to interview with basically any NYC biglaw firm they wanted plus many firms hiring for Boston, Chicago, LA, Bay Area, etc. (though, of course, whether the students actually received a callback and an offer after they did the interview was, in part, a function of factors like grades).
it will be significantly harder--there are fewer interview slots for lower-ranked schools in biglaw. you can probably snag a few if you have great grades at a lower-ranked school, treat it as a numbers game, and don't get discouraged by nos.
it's pretty hard to transition into biglaw if you didn't start in biglaw, but it's not impossible, especially during hot hiring markets like right now. that will largely depend on how strategic and successful you are post-graduation
Should have had a disclaimer *** except for the last 3 SC appointments who arent qualified at all.
Except in terms of resume, they definitely are. Trump’s appointees have very similar resumes to most other justices, having all clerked for justices themselves and done various stints in high level federal government positions, top law firms, and academia
Huh?
You dont need to vocal fry to enunciate
I've always had an interest in law school. Recently, I've realized that I would work at GLAD or the ACLU or a similar firm that focuses on human rights and freedom for oppressed groups specifically. But law school is so expensive 😫 Are those considered big law so that the potential income balances the amount of work needed to get there?
no, but if you are really committed to working at least 10 years with the lower pay, some schools offer loan repayment assistance plans, and there’s also the federal public service loan forgiveness plan. if you are committed to public interest law, you really need to let go of the idea of a super comfortable life like your classmates in biglaw will have
@@CeceXie Thank you for responding. I appreciate your insight.