One VERY important fact to point out. This was a very common problem on STOCK M8 engines in 2017/early 2018. And that little lip, was the only time I've ever seen that, on ANY cylinder made by ANYONE for a Harley engine. Never existed on any other engine format for HD. Also...understand. When you buy a "big bore" cylinder from HD...it is a stock cylinder, bored larger.
Kevin Baxter Do you suspect that these m8 engines are forged and made in china the heads, cylinders ,pistons cases ext..but then harley brings then to the factorys only to assemble them in house or are these parts being forged and made at the American factorys?.
well, pretty much every component is cast...not forged. truth is, HD very closely guards who makes their stuff if its not them. At one point, i knew exactly who casted all their engine components...not sure if it has changed. And im the type if i dont know...i dont speak.
Cylinder, head, case castings were domestic....but that was YEARS ago that i knew that for certain. People in china and mexico will make things EXACTLY the way you tell them to. Parts from those countries arent bad....but when someone wants something made cheap, they go there...and those people make those items EXACTLY like they are asked to....and they get blamed for bad designs from cheap US companies. Just one example...some of the BEST carbon fiber components come out of chinese factories....no joke. Even $7000 to $10000 race bicycle frames come from chinese factories...and they are AWESOME. I know...trust me. LOL
Kevin Baxter Thats interesting i have always had bad experience with chinese products especially tools. i have since always had usa made tools especially older stuff its the best from drill presses to grinders i have machinary built in the 50s to the 80s that still works as good as new today. Im sure alot of your machining tools in your shop arent chinese 😂
Hope I'm not out of line but come on people. Over 13,000 views with only 477 thumbs up. Kevin is doing his job to provide us with great content and we, in turn, should at least click the "thumbs up" to help his channel.
I gave up on HD after they sold me a TC88 and failed to mentioned their flawed design for cam chain tensioners. So, they made that sale, and lost a customer that would have bought at least 5 more motorcycles from them. Great informative video.
Is cracking a problem with the stock factory cylinder or only with the factory cylinder that has been bored out to a bigger size? I'm asking because I'm intrested in purchasing a new bike with the new M8 engine.
it was a problem with the 17 and 18 models on completely stock cyls. not so much on the models after. im still investigating the issue to see what, if anything, changed.
Early Evo's from 85 to mid 92 had their share of factory installed issues, I've fixed enough of them in my career. Everything has early production issues that wind up getting straightened out after a few years, Flat's, Knuck's, Pan's, and Shovel's are no exception to that, I could sit here all day typing out the early production problems with all of those.
I had an HD engineer tell me once at the AMD show in sturgis...."We build the bikes and create the market, you guys make the bikes better. Where do you think our new stuff comes from". LOL. No joke.
The HD engineers are listening it is the accountants that are the problem of most companies. You can get quality or you can get cheap. Never can you get both.
How many Panhead riders does it take to change a lightbulb? 5, one to change the bulb and the other four to stand around and talk about how much better the old bulb was.
I do love watching your videos they are very well presented . I especially like these M8 vs twin cam videos because they make me feel good about keeping hold of my good old reliable 88 model Evo.
I’ve got 23,000 miles on my 2018 break out and the only thing I’ve done to it is a woods performance 22X cam kit other than that nothing else in the motor has been touched do you think I would’ve seen a problem by now well over 20,000 miles on this aftermarket cam kit lifters pushrods and I run the piss out of the bike And it still runs just as good now as it did 20,000 miles back when I first had the cam kit put in. It’s really starting to sound more and more like the bang for the buck with these M8’s is to just do a hotter cam a good tune a good two and one pipe and be done with it
If you made it that long, more than likely you are ok. Stock 2017s had many cylinder failures but most occurred the first 1500 miles or so. Performance done right can be very reliable.
douglas mcbride If you want I can go down the list of factory problems with the Evo's during their production run, including bad engine cases form circa 88 through circa 92, cylinder studs would pull the threads out of the cases on stock motors, and they couldn't be HeliCoiled because they'd just do the same thing, then you're stuck with aftermarket cases with numbers that don't match the numbers on the frame and some rookie cop who doesn't understand the bill of origin thing has your bike impounded, the cases in that era are a crap shoot. And that's just the beginning of factory installed problems that Evo's had, it's a list longer than you'd think, that led people back then to say "Shovel's/Pans's/Knuckle's were the best engine that Harley ever made".
The Evo is good but the best engine ever created by the MoCo is the Revolution engine (Designed by Porsche). Too bad it was only used in the VRSCR series.
I feel like people lack common sense these days, all this is pretty easy to understand. Harley should know better, that squared off edge is basicly like if you scored a tile to crack it and then just the common sense of a cylinder being bored bigger needs more strength, not less.
The early Evo case's had a similar problem, the machine work on the rear motor mount pad has a 90° corner where the machine work also cuts the rear face of the case's, if you take a set of those case's apart you'll see there's a thin area from that corner to a hole for a through bolt in the cases, they liked to crack from that corner to the bolt hole across the machined surface where the case halves bolt together (if I remember correctly it was the left side case's that were prone to doing it). Starting with the 88 model year they put a little 45° camphor in the corner of the motor mount machining that solved that problem. Evo's aren't as bullet proof as people think, there's a laundry list of issues they had about the first 7 years with them, the mid 92's and up are the rock solid Evo's despite the (easily solved) head breathing quirks.
Yeah Harley Davidson stopped making Harleys when they discontinued the Evo engine blockheads rule that was the ultimate engine reliable dependable 300,000 miles is nothing out of one of those motors if taken care of this new twin cams and m 8. Suck
I can go down a long list of early Evo problems that came from the factory including bad cases from around 88 to 92 that pull cylinder studs from the cases and rip the threads out when they do, and they can't be repaired because they were cast with junk out of spec aluminum, and 85 through 87 engine cases that crack due to bad machine work on the rear motor mount pad surface, that's just the beginning of things like that. The best Evo's are the mid 92 up, they sorted out the early issues and improved the oiling system, despite their (easily taken care of) head breathing quirks they're the rock solid Evo's, generally any of the early one's that've made it this far are the one's that didn't have any of the issues early one's could have, they won at Russian roulette. The early engine cases from 85 to 87 like to crack in an area you can only see with the case halves apart, it's the left side case and it goes from the corner of the machining for the rear motor mount across the face of the machining for the case half surface to a nearby bolt hole, it's a thin area and they like to crack across there, starting in 88 they put a 45° bevel in the corner of the motor mount machining that stopped that, I don't see original early model Evo's that much anymore but when I do I usually find a crack there and then I have to have an unfortunate phone conversation with the owner.
Relieving any sharp or raw edges on the shirt will keep cracks from walking but the biggest cylinder killer I’ve seen is the guys beating on a cold engine and not letting it warm up slowly.
there is nothing wrong with boring cylinders. has been done since the beginning of the internal combustion engine. its done every day. Whats odd about this....TC and earlier cylinders have been bored much thinner for decades...and didnt have this problem. also....STOCK M8 cylinders were breaking too....so its not the fact they were bored that created the problem.
Best advice is dont monkey with your engine. When riding down the road at 70mph, you're only riding on about 35 to 40 ponies, regardless of how many ponies your bike has. Whats the point of more power.
Performance can be exceptionally reliable...provided its done well and proper, with correct parts. Of course, i respect your position...that's why baskin robbins has 31 flavors right? Thanks for the comment.
A Harley is an under squared engine longer stroke than bore .They did that in 1914 because they didn't know how anything about volumetric efficiency that was the only way they knew how to get power was a long stroke. Harley is the only gas engine on this planet that is still under squared. A diesel engine is under squared. Come on Harley this is 2020. Every is oversquaired, bigger bore than stroke. Motorcycles and cars accept Harley.
i think its a little carry over from the muscle car era too. Long stroke, long rods, and all torque. An LS6 454 pulls like crazy, but doesnt rev too fast. But a well built 427 or 400 small block is pretty dang nasty too.
Double thumbs up on this video. I cringe when I hear M8 owners talking about increasing their displacement with HD cylinders, pistons, and an uploaded tune when there are much better options available. Nothing worse when your bang for the buck is followed by a crack and a crunch.
I bought the Screaming Eagle 114 stage 4 kit DIRECTLY from harley in 2018 for a model year 2017 M8. One of the first ones.. Yes...With all the oil issues and everything else....Moral to the story. I went through "3" sets of SE heads that needed sent back just due to gauge marks in the surfacing of these parts. Weather they were made in China and finished in the US or India. There are several steps these products go through before they are finished. So even if said heads may have been cast in China. That doesn't mean they were assembled or finished there. Either way. 30,000 Miles later and still running the same mild build with stock-ish HD parts. That were clearly NOT USA finished...
So far my 2019 FXDR-114 is still stock with no issues 👍🇺🇸, then again it only has 👉1225 miles 👈, I tend to wax it more than I ride it, 😎and that’s ok too 👍🇺🇸
Kevin, you and your crew really get down to brass tacks on engine building and why things work or don’t work. You are providing people with the knowledge to avoid the bad stuff and quite frankly the bad shops that will just throw together any old build. I said it before and I’ll say it again. You provide the very best insight on engine builds anywhere. I’m a couple years away but when I pull the trigger I’m heading south to see you for my build. Thanks again for what you do. 👍
This really isn't all that new to those that know HD motors. In 1936 the infamous Knucklehead came out, it had a 3 5/16" bore as it was 61 cubic inches. In 1941 the 74" 3 7/16" bore longer stroke motor came out. All in all the bigger 74's worked well until the cylinders were bored .050" or greater during overhauls when they easily exploded, especially at the drag strip.
I agree...not new at all. Going too far was a disaster waiting to happen on any cylinder. What's different though...is that STOCK M8 cylinders in stock bore size, were having the problem. No other HD ever has. Still working to determine the exact cause so its not a risk when boring to an acceptable size.
I love watching videos on people figuring out what wrong with Harley's. Makes me glad I bought a 01 Honda Valkyrie 1500. It depresses me at how low the quality is on these expensive bikes..
Great video and good info, I have not had problems yet (knock on wood) boring the 107 to 4.125 but as you stated it takes a lot of patience to get that spigot bored and honed to the correct clearance. I believe you are correct in your assessment of the problem with the construction of the liner. I have used several sets of the Daytona cylinders like were shown in the video with zero problems. They really are a great value . They should be making 4.125 twincam cylinders as well. I have seen guys take the twincam "bigger bore" cylinders out to 4.125 but I have yet to try that. As I am sure you know some of those early ones were not very good quality either. It's interesting that we are 4 years into this M8 and still learning how to consistently get reliable power out of them with no issues (oiling etc.) I'm just starting to really like this platform. Edit; One more thing to add, where I feel a problem is occurring causing cracking. The spigot on the M8 is tapered for cylinder to cylinder clearance. After they are bored they can end up with an almost sharp edge and the bottom of the spigot. I always cut this down a bit to end up with a flat surface to avoid a stress riser and don't get carried away with a ring lead in taper.
Thanks Bob. I've spoken to many other builders as well...some Im sure you know. Some are seeing the same thing but not on every one. Others, like you, have said "no issue" as of yet. However...HD had a problem with stock 107 cyls breaking in the same fashion in 17 and early 18 which is why they changed something with the cylinder...and why i waited a little while to start boring them to 4.125...leading me to believe it has less to do with bore size, and more to do with cylinder construction, case geometry, rod length, piston dwell time at BDC, etc. As I said...I'm still working on the theory to try and determine the exact cause. I have not bored those M8 cyls to 4.125 myself...but I do have a few bikes here that were built by others, with broken skirts. I will be cutting many more broken M8 cylinders open over the next few days. Side note....I know several who will run TC 4" bore to 4.060, and 4.060 to 4.125 and they havent had any issues....but it's simply not a risk im willing to take. It's purely a choice...not saying those that do are wrong. Fact remains, many TC engines have run far thinner skirts when compared to an M8 3.937 bored to 4.125....and the TC cyls didn't seem to have a widespread issue. So something has to be causing it. I completely agree with the taper. Instead of a razor sharp edge, cut a small scallop into the spigot for clearance and round the edge. Any machinist with any experience knows, sharp corners and edges lead to failure. Even a slight radius is helpful. Thanks for your insight and comment...and for contributing. I enjoyed reading it.
I have a S&S 124" T series crate motor on my 2006 Road Glide. I bought the motor new from S&S in 2015. Seems to be holding up just fine. I could have bought a new bike with an M8 but I have heard too many horror stories, such as these.
Kevin Baxter can you do a video only about M8 engine, the years of the engine vs the problems and the solution for the problem to rise the reliability of that engine? And what harley changed through the years.
@@KevinBaxter nice I will be waiting for that video, personal I belive I never saw a video with that topic about the years vs problems and solutions about only M8. Best regards.
My 94 FXDL has over 100k. Still runs. AMF saved Harleys bacon. Towards the end of the TC, they had a good engine. Bought my second "new" Harley in October 2022. My new FXBBS is great. All it gets is a pipe,a tune, and high flow air filter element. Pretty salty at 114ci. Rode Triumphs for years. Still have a couple. My first Harley Davidson was a 1940 knuck chopper. Well, only the engine was 1940... 62 transmission, jocky shift, 1957 frame, a girder fork, and damn near no brakes!!!
Wow. Very interesting vlog. Think you upgrade your bike at your peril.😬. We all know that metal expands and contracts with heat.Thats a fact.That notch you highlight on the M8 might 'pin' the sleeve and cause different expansion rates, hence the cracking.
Is there a difference in the 95 big bore kit going to 98 vs the original 88 going to 98? 95 kit that harley sold separately is the one I'm referring to.
When you buy a big bore cylinder kit from HD...its the exact same as a stock cylinder, just bored bigger. HD never sold a 98 kit...aftermarket only. We have bored 88 and 95 cyls to 98 cyls since 2000 that size with no issue as memory serves. Only difference...bore them bigger. However, Rev Perf made a solid alum cylinder in that size many years ago and it was nik/sil coated...that was a disaster. Personally, I wouldnt go that route. 88=3.75 bore. 95=3.875 bore. 98=3.937 bore and that is as far as youd want to go safely.
So, you guys are saying that Harley Davidson should spec the stock cylinders so they can be bored larger? They should intentionally spend more money so you can make a 103” a 107”? I’m not apologizing for H-D, but that’s ridiculous. Buy new cylinders, from Kevin.
I have been a precision machinist working with many prototype machines and their individual steel components for 30 years. I have machined countless parts made from many different types of materials and have machined many bores of all types of configurations over thirty years. I also worked very closely with our mechanical engineering department on various prototype projects. All I can say is this is very amateur engineering on Harley-Davidson’s part, just by looking at these long protruding cylinder sleeve skirts especially the one with the skirts cut out with no structural support are a disaster waiting to happen! You also have to consider the difference in heat expansion between the cylinder sleeve that is actually pressed in the cylinder and the portion of the cylinder sleeve that is thin and not supported by the aluminum cylinder walls. Their tends to be a egg shape in most bores after final machining as well. At the least a matching and mating radius should be machined in both the case base and the protruding cylinder sleeve as it exits the actual aluminum cylinder. Their should never be sharp angles at the weakest stress points. Harley-Davidson’s mechanical engineers should known better. Very shocking something so basic in simple physics is overlooked and produced by a major motor company. Sad really... it’s better to over engineer any day!
As you know Paul...we will agree on all your points. The long spigot on Twin Cam has never been an issue provided its bored correctly. They hold up very well. That unique feature in the M8 cylinder was my focus on the video really....and my theory as to why they are breaking even on stock cylinders....and of course, lack of radius at the intersecting points. Great comment sir...thank you so much!
KEVIN, I HAVE A 2017 STREET GLIDE WITH 10K EASY MILES ON HER. THIS WEEKEND WHILE RIDING I HAVE A MAJOR OIL LEAK COMING FROM THE REAR CYLINDER. SEEMS TO BE COMING FROM THE TOP, I ASSUME BETWEEN ROCKER BOX AND JUG, JUST ABOVE THE OIL HOSE COMING OUT THE REAR OF THE CYLINDER. THE BIKE RUNS FINE, OTHERWISE. IS THAT A COMMON ISSUE? THANKS!
Kevin!!! Bro! I was cruising my 03 RK doing 55, accelerated to 60 when suddenly I heard, out of the blue, the weirdest “bang, bang, bang” and quickly let off throttle bringing my RPMs down. In this vid (4:18), you mentioned the bang issue. With my TC88 at just over 60k, I’m now thinking the worst! Damn it!!! Luckily noise went away so as to get home... 😞 But now am leery riding my baby. I got to get her fixed. Damn it!!! I guess it’s time for a new engine. I was looking to replace cam plate with S&S kit and cams w/ hydro-tensioner or gear drive (preferably - providing TIR is w/i .003)... now this...UUUugh! Recommendations? I gots to get’r done, love my squidly freedom... 🇺🇸
Great video and very interesting. You said that you saw this issue on 2017 - early 2018 models... does that mean that HD fixed this issue on 2019 - 2020 models ? I'm interested by the 2020 FXLRS but when I see that... Cheers from France !
I wasnt the only one that saw that issue early on. It was kept relatively quiet but was widespread. I'm currently looking into the later model cylinders to see if there was a change. The problem with the stock cylinders has not been anywhere near as widespread on the later models, leading me to believe yes, something did change. I'm working on that answer. I'm not the type to guess at a solution or cause however...speculation is good because it leads us to investigation. But until I can be certain of the cause, or the solution, i will not state it as fact. More details to come for sure as myself, and others i trust in this industry, continue to investigate. It's all in the spirit of providing the best most reliable product we can for our customers.
I have a 2014 Street glide and I want to do a 110 upgrade, however I keep hearing that the skirts are way too thin and the engines don't last😳 what is your opinion on that 🤔
I'm reluctant to recommend a 110. There are so many other options that are less intrusive and provide more power without a sacrifice in reliability. That's why we dont offer them despite our ability to build anything.
I put the screaming eagle 110 tire shedder kit on my 2011 dyna street bob, I very much recommend it. 106hp/122 tq runs great but I hardly rev it past 5k rpms.
Agree with your assessment, but not because of the notch. From what I saw in the Video, the M8 SLEEVE is not under cut with a radius like the Twin is. A perfect 90 Deg cut in machining is a stress point. This is a perfect reason for cracking. IMO
Typically speaking, would you relate these issues to stage 3 upgrades vs stage 2? In other words have you seen a cam swap cause a cylinder to crack, right?
I am interested in the pro 120 kit for my 2017 Street Glide special. The question I have, if I brought my bike to your shop, and wanted your personal to do the work, is that possible?
I couldn't help thinking of the de Havilland Comet, first commercial jetliner. It had windows that had sharp corners that stress cracked. That cylinder at 2.50 of the video looks like the cylinders were cut with a sharp corner at the step where the cracks were happening. The fix was of course, ovals at the corners to spread the stress over a larger area. Same idea to stop a small stress crack, drill a round hole at the end of the crack. That is not meant to be the solution here. LOL!
The best Harley engine ever was the Revolution no doubts, it passed successfully in the first try the Düsseldorf Test witch is a rigorous endurance test that requires an engine to run for 500 hours without failure in high RPMs non stop.
A great engine format for sure. Dont recall seeing a single common issue with those. Scott Fitzgerald at Fitzgerald Motorsports in Ohio is a good friend...he knows those engines inside and out.
I'm glad I didn't have mine bored over. I had a heavy breather, wood knight prowler 22x cam, and short shots installed along with a full tune by the dealer before I took delivery. All covered by the warranty forever in writing.
I, as well as many other reputable machine shops, have been boring stock TC cyls to 3.937 since the early 2000s successfully. I wouldnt hesitate to do it now on my own bike or a customers bike. If i had seen a pattern or failures as a result, I simply wouldnt do it. Is there a slight risk that it could crack? Sure.....but the same risk comes with virtually any cylinder really.
all engines make noise. if you could ride the engine in your car, youd be amazed at the noise they make. i cant honestly answer your question as i havent heard it. if its always done it since new, most likely its not an issue. if it came on suddenly, or suddenly got worse, it could be a sign of a problem.
Your theory makes sense to me FWIW , but that and two bux will get you a dollar cuppa mud .. Is the sleeve a sleeve that can be pressed out and replaced ??
The 110 had a few issues but werent extremely common other than the flywheel issues in the earlier years. 2014 wasnt a terrible year really. Most common issue was valve seats dropping, and cylinders out of round causing oil consumption, piston slap, etc. Another issue was cylinder base leaks but when they redesigned the oring to a quad seal, it solved that problem for the most part. The compensator was better by that year...but....the auto primary chain tensioners were always an issue. Listen for a whirring sound....could be a main drive gear bearing in the trans going out. Even with that being a large bore, thin skirt cylinder....they did not have a problem with them breaking. I dont recall one. That's why that one feature on those M8 cylinders stood out. Its the only one that ever had that, and the only one that has had a problem with it stock.
dont panic. it really wasnt a bad engine as they were around longer. the first few years, not so great. but, 7 years later, in 2014...they were far better than the very first generation. the issues werent widespread but, the ones that had problems, seem to have the same problems.
Thanks Kevin, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my question! Recon I’ll keep it over trading for an M8, for now anyway. Motor runs great, no over heating issues since tuned and de-catted.
Fantastic information to be made available Kevin. Too bad you aren’t the head of engineering for Harley. Just so I understand because I’m a little slow. Are the problems coming from the “stock cylinders” only or are they a result of being bored after the stock has been installed in the bike and then having a shop change the bore size for a new engine? Sorry for the dumb question. Thanks in advance.
Not a dumb question at all sir...you are welcome here. The problem was occurring on stock unmodified cyls. That seems to not be happening as frequently which means something changed with the stock ones...figuring out what at this time.
I'd say, they have reached the limit on how wide the bore can be made in the sleeve, due to the sleeve itself, not the jugs You can't cut the sleeve so thin, and expect it to contain all that goes on in a cylinder in the normal course of its operation. Less metal means weaker walls...
Especially with the 131. Our 124 embarrasses that engine and is reliable. Funny to watch. We were building 120 TC almost 8 years before the HD 120 came out, making more power, and i have hundreds of them still on the road tapping 100,000 miles or more....and we embarrassed that one too. LOL I agree...at some point...more is too much. When it gets to the point you start running tool steel for cylinder liners JUST to squeeze in a few more cubic inches, enough is enough.
Charlie wright. Forgot to give my name so u would know who wants the 107 works hope to see U soon a big fan & with much respect to U my fucher friend. U have the head knollage i wish i had but am a averig wrench my bike is akeep & U can make it what H. D. Should have made the first time instead of a want tobe bike an a weak P. O. S.
Im perfectly fine. I'm actually blind in my right eye...was shot with a CO2 pellet pistol at point blank in my youth. Went completely thru and my eye exploded into several pieces...pretty lucky to be here actually. Instead of a glass eye, I chose to have the eye sewn back together and keep the one god gave me. Of course, certain pieces cant be sewn back together so it stays dilated. Also...when i get extremely tired, it tends to drift to the right. I don't have many tattoos...but i have a bunch of scars. In my 20s, i was a bit ashamed of it and tried cosmetic contact lenses...but then i grew up and dont care anymore. Again....it's a "life" scar type of story. Thanks for asking.
Nothing wrong with the M8. Just because someone has the tools to bore a cylinder doesn't mean it's a good idea. It's made that thick for a reason. The reason is so it doesn't flex. Buy it and ride it. No problem.
When purchasing a big bore kit with whole new jugs for my m8 from leading edge performance, are the cylinders bored on such a kit or just made from scratch??
All have to be bored. Cyl sleeves are either cast into the cylinder or pressed in. Either way, they have to be bored to specific size and honed to precision fit. How far they are bored and the thickness of the spigot is the concern. I am not aware of how they are doing your cylinders. If they are boring stock ones, having theirs made, or buying from somewhere and doing the finish work themselves...really doesnt matter as long as its done well.
Sucks that the distance from here to there is over 10,000 miles, and most of the ride is under water, still there's always freight once I finish my build list, pity though.
Ive had bikes in the shop from all over the planet for various different things. I'm very proud of that fact. Its just a short boat ride. Thank you very much for the kind words.
@@KevinBaxter It's nice up on the east coast, rellies in Sydney, about 1200 miles east of us, as the crow flies, couple of days on a good bike. Never been over your way, might have to find and excuse. Or at least add it to the bucket list.
Well, if you make it, we'll fry up some chicken, shoot some guns, and fly a flag from the back of a jacked up 4x4 LOL. You may know Rollies....Rollie is a good friend. John and Berto there are great fellas too. Adam and Julie at APL Performance are good friends as well. Then Malcolm Martin at Morgan and Wacker HD is a very long time friend too. Love my time over there.
IMO similar to SBF 347 stroker engines...Too much angle on the bottom of the stroke which pushes the piston against the bottom wall of the cylinder too much....On a SBF it will start to eat oil compared to a 331 or 302.... Thats a BLOCK though not thin sleeve on the bottom like that.
Pleased to hear it! I had an evo electraglide that had many many kms on it and ran perfect. Slight oil leak at cylinder base once that was fixed by a seven thousand km ride! Had an R80 BMW that was pretty good(needed clutch and gearbox repairs at about 250000kms!). ..but my K1300R had a front electronic damper fail at 30000km which was quoted by BMW at $1000 to replace. My sons BMW F650 ate its valves at about 80000 (regular services at dealer). Just saying that any machine is just a machine and can fail. Not brand bashing, just saying. Also hope my M8 Softail gives me the trouble free days and kms that the evo glide did!!
S&S back peddled on warranty on their 110" twin cam cylinder failures after they admitted having a problem, i hope they know the tens of thousands of dollars of product sales they lost because of it, i will never recommend another cyl of theirs, too bad, I'm sure all of them can't be junk.
Maybe if they went to a solid one piece crankshaft and offset the cylinders the amount required for the connecting rods. You would gain 2 major items, first the crankshaft would be MUCH stronger and no longer would shift which is a common problem with assembled crankshaft. The second gain would be the offset the cylinders you would get much better cooling for the rear cylinder. Don't believe me use either a thermal camera or a digital thermal gauge and you will see a much higher rear temp. Not mentioned is that the rear cylinder is way overrepresented for this cylinder cracking. So for the most part these engines are getting HOT, notice as the engine displacement increases the problem grows in kind.
The lip is creating a harmonic frequency thats different from the rest of the bore. As the piston comes down it passes that lip and due to no surrounding support from the rest of the bore as well as the slight force put on it from the point just before tip over you going get flex. I think kevin is a very good harley tech. I have been a master tech with over 40 years under my belt. I certainly agree with his assertion that it is due to the lip as well as the possibility of improper honing techniques. I made a support jig just for lower skirts to keep the outward expansion from occurring. All you kids out there need to pay attention. This guy is passing on very valuable knowledge.
Love your channel man, between yours and Tatro Machine ive learned more in 2 years than I have all my short life at 45 now!....what do think about tribodyn oil Kevin?...
@@KevinBaxter thanks for the fast reply!....tribodyn is made in North carolina...ive learned about it from Keenan Tatro of Tatro Machine...its a super oil as far as I'm concerned....i have it for all 3 engine primary and trans if my road king ever gets finished from a piston and head upgrade!....id love to hear what your opinions are of this oil Kevin...thanks again man
Kevin, I have a reasonable suspicion about this since it is occurring on "some" of these and not others. If you look at the area of the crack where the spigot meets the casting. If there is a slight undercut there, you may need a magnifying glass tot see it. This will cause the cylinders to crack in the same means. This is caused by the tool used for these cuts when it is tried being worn out and having a "hook" at the tip. This just means mfg. needs to adjust his MTBF one or ten before it occurs.
I use to see this at Chrysler. I worked in powertrain. We use to bore out cylinders sometimes if a casting was bad we’d bore right through a side wall. 🙈🤔. Good info
Yes however, if the sleeve extends beyond the casting where it meets the case and the head hold it in place. There has never been another harley cylinder produced, ever, even in the aftermarket, that had that little step down.
The best thing about Hardly Abelson is they convert gas into useless amounts of noise pollution without the side effect of horsepower, plus people pay for just the name.
Wow that's unsettling knowing that if cylanders are done wrong that they could come apart at the wrong time on the road going 70 mph or lower speed...the passenger would probably be screaming...just sayin. And for once I understood the video. So glad you are fixing our bike.
I've been telling people for years that if they want to go big bore on any of these engines they're best off getting aftermarket cylinders (quality American made one's) because they already address most of the issues like this, I won't even bore a set of factory cylinders for a big bore, I tell people if they're not going to do it right then I don't want my name associated with it.
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One VERY important fact to point out. This was a very common problem on STOCK M8 engines in 2017/early 2018. And that little lip, was the only time I've ever seen that, on ANY cylinder made by ANYONE for a Harley engine. Never existed on any other engine format for HD. Also...understand. When you buy a "big bore" cylinder from HD...it is a stock cylinder, bored larger.
Kevin Baxter Do you suspect that these m8 engines are forged and made in china the heads, cylinders ,pistons cases ext..but then harley brings then to the factorys only to assemble them in house or are these parts being forged and made at the American factorys?.
well, pretty much every component is cast...not forged. truth is, HD very closely guards who makes their stuff if its not them. At one point, i knew exactly who casted all their engine components...not sure if it has changed. And im the type if i dont know...i dont speak.
Kevin Baxter Are you allowed to say were they were made before?India, china, Germany, or mexico? lol gota be one of those 😂
Cylinder, head, case castings were domestic....but that was YEARS ago that i knew that for certain. People in china and mexico will make things EXACTLY the way you tell them to. Parts from those countries arent bad....but when someone wants something made cheap, they go there...and those people make those items EXACTLY like they are asked to....and they get blamed for bad designs from cheap US companies. Just one example...some of the BEST carbon fiber components come out of chinese factories....no joke. Even $7000 to $10000 race bicycle frames come from chinese factories...and they are AWESOME. I know...trust me. LOL
Kevin Baxter Thats interesting i have always had bad experience with chinese products especially tools. i have since always had usa made tools especially older stuff its the best from drill presses to grinders i have machinary built in the 50s to the 80s that still works as good as new today. Im sure alot of your machining tools in your shop arent chinese 😂
Reliable engine performance is far more important than that little horsepower increase.
A blown up engine makes 0 horsepower.
I AM 1000% with you sir. Sell me a reliable, durable, smooth running machine, and I'm your loyalest customer.
Hope I'm not out of line but come on people. Over 13,000 views with only 477 thumbs up. Kevin is doing his job to provide us with great content and we, in turn, should at least click the "thumbs up" to help his channel.
Thank you very much Kerry. Youre the best man.
I gave up on HD after they sold me a TC88 and failed to mentioned their flawed design for cam chain tensioners. So, they made that sale, and lost a customer that would have bought at least 5 more motorcycles from them. Great informative video.
there were many surprised people in that era...still are.
Is cracking a problem with the stock factory cylinder or only with the factory cylinder that has been bored out to a bigger size? I'm asking because I'm intrested in purchasing a new bike with the new M8 engine.
it was a problem with the 17 and 18 models on completely stock cyls. not so much on the models after. im still investigating the issue to see what, if anything, changed.
I'll stop at evo. No twin cam or newer for me
Early Evo's from 85 to mid 92 had their share of factory installed issues, I've fixed enough of them in my career.
Everything has early production issues that wind up getting straightened out after a few years, Flat's, Knuck's, Pan's, and Shovel's are no exception to that, I could sit here all day typing out the early production problems with all of those.
I can't wait till Kevin,,(Mr Baxter President of Harley Engineering) takes Harley Productions over,,,,
I had an HD engineer tell me once at the AMD show in sturgis...."We build the bikes and create the market, you guys make the bikes better. Where do you think our new stuff comes from". LOL. No joke.
There was ALWAYS and engineer from HD, in my seminars and classes at Cincinnati, Indy, etc....listening.
The HD engineers are listening it is the accountants that are the problem of most companies. You can get quality or you can get cheap. Never can you get both.
So they build a shit product and come to your class to learn how to improve it. Does their R&D department exist?
Who wants a ride on a Titanic bike?
This is why I'll keep my 20+ year old EVO powered Heritage Softtail. 100,000 mile motor!
Harleys last best engine.
Right on! Evo was a great one for sure.
How many Panhead riders does it take to change a lightbulb?
5, one to change the bulb and the other four to stand around and talk about how much better the old bulb was.
Good one Duke! If it doesn't have a leather belt drive and slipper clutch it's no Harley! Eves rule.
My 30 yr old Evo I will not ever sell, EVER.
I do love watching your videos they are very well presented . I especially like these M8 vs twin cam videos because they make me feel good about keeping hold of my good old reliable 88 model Evo.
Thank you very much!
Personally always makes me think about S&S be done with it
S&S are the cheapest of cheep quality wise
This is what happens when you take factory parts and modify them to go beyond what they are made for.
As a guy this is so hard to comprehend. I’ve always thought “Short Skirts” were always better! Lol I know, bad joke...
HAHAHAHAHAHA. Awesome! Thanks Robert. Great joke!
Just pretend the harley is a fat girl
I’ve got 23,000 miles on my 2018 break out and the only thing I’ve done to it is a woods performance 22X cam kit other than that nothing else in the motor has been touched do you think I would’ve seen a problem by now well over 20,000 miles on this aftermarket cam kit lifters pushrods and I run the piss out of the bike And it still runs just as good now as it did 20,000 miles back when I first had the cam kit put in. It’s really starting to sound more and more like the bang for the buck with these M8’s is to just do a hotter cam a good tune a good two and one pipe and be done with it
If you made it that long, more than likely you are ok. Stock 2017s had many cylinder failures but most occurred the first 1500 miles or so. Performance done right can be very reliable.
EVO is the best harley engines ever in history
I 2nd that..strong and dependable
douglas mcbride
If you want I can go down the list of factory problems with the Evo's during their production run, including bad engine cases form circa 88 through circa 92, cylinder studs would pull the threads out of the cases on stock motors, and they couldn't be HeliCoiled because they'd just do the same thing, then you're stuck with aftermarket cases with numbers that don't match the numbers on the frame and some rookie cop who doesn't understand the bill of origin thing has your bike impounded, the cases in that era are a crap shoot.
And that's just the beginning of factory installed problems that Evo's had, it's a list longer than you'd think, that led people back then to say "Shovel's/Pans's/Knuckle's were the best engine that Harley ever made".
The Evo is good but the best engine ever created by the MoCo is the Revolution engine (Designed by Porsche). Too bad it was only used in the VRSCR series.
I feel like people lack common sense these days, all this is pretty easy to understand. Harley should know better, that squared off edge is basicly like if you scored a tile to crack it and then just the common sense of a cylinder being bored bigger needs more strength, not less.
The early Evo case's had a similar problem, the machine work on the rear motor mount pad has a 90° corner where the machine work also cuts the rear face of the case's, if you take a set of those case's apart you'll see there's a thin area from that corner to a hole for a through bolt in the cases, they liked to crack from that corner to the bolt hole across the machined surface where the case halves bolt together (if I remember correctly it was the left side case's that were prone to doing it).
Starting with the 88 model year they put a little 45° camphor in the corner of the motor mount machining that solved that problem.
Evo's aren't as bullet proof as people think, there's a laundry list of issues they had about the first 7 years with them, the mid 92's and up are the rock solid Evo's despite the (easily solved) head breathing quirks.
Yeah Harley Davidson stopped making Harleys when they discontinued the Evo engine blockheads rule that was the ultimate engine reliable dependable 300,000 miles is nothing out of one of those motors if taken care of this new twin cams and m 8. Suck
I can go down a long list of early Evo problems that came from the factory including bad cases from around 88 to 92 that pull cylinder studs from the cases and rip the threads out when they do, and they can't be repaired because they were cast with junk out of spec aluminum, and 85 through 87 engine cases that crack due to bad machine work on the rear motor mount pad surface, that's just the beginning of things like that.
The best Evo's are the mid 92 up, they sorted out the early issues and improved the oiling system, despite their (easily taken care of) head breathing quirks they're the rock solid Evo's, generally any of the early one's that've made it this far are the one's that didn't have any of the issues early one's could have, they won at Russian roulette.
The early engine cases from 85 to 87 like to crack in an area you can only see with the case halves apart, it's the left side case and it goes from the corner of the machining for the rear motor mount across the face of the machining for the case half surface to a nearby bolt hole, it's a thin area and they like to crack across there, starting in 88 they put a 45° bevel in the corner of the motor mount machining that stopped that, I don't see original early model Evo's that much anymore but when I do I usually find a crack there and then I have to have an unfortunate phone conversation with the owner.
Relieving any sharp or raw edges on the shirt will keep cracks from walking but the biggest cylinder killer I’ve seen is the guys beating on a cold engine and not letting it warm up slowly.
Absolutely sir.
@hugieglhr03 - i dont get what you saying. . . . . .more words plz.
Harley Davidson tests their engines by selling them to gullible customers.
Why not just stop boring the cylinders
there is nothing wrong with boring cylinders. has been done since the beginning of the internal combustion engine. its done every day. Whats odd about this....TC and earlier cylinders have been bored much thinner for decades...and didnt have this problem. also....STOCK M8 cylinders were breaking too....so its not the fact they were bored that created the problem.
I'll stick to stock, I'm not out to win any races, I just want to have a reliable ride.
Best advice is dont monkey with your engine. When riding down the road at 70mph, you're only riding on about 35 to 40 ponies, regardless of how many ponies your bike has. Whats the point of more power.
Performance can be exceptionally reliable...provided its done well and proper, with correct parts. Of course, i respect your position...that's why baskin robbins has 31 flavors right? Thanks for the comment.
A Harley is an under squared engine longer stroke than bore .They did that in 1914 because they didn't know how anything about volumetric efficiency that was the only way they knew how to get power was a long stroke. Harley is the only gas engine on this planet that is still under squared. A diesel engine is under squared. Come on Harley this is 2020. Every is oversquaired, bigger bore than stroke. Motorcycles and cars accept Harley.
i think its a little carry over from the muscle car era too. Long stroke, long rods, and all torque. An LS6 454 pulls like crazy, but doesnt rev too fast. But a well built 427 or 400 small block is pretty dang nasty too.
Indian Thunderstroke 111 is better!
My 2019 RG is a stock bore 107 with just light mods. I don’t have any worries. Makes plenty enough torque to move her down the road just fine.
Excellent.
Double thumbs up on this video. I cringe when I hear M8 owners talking about increasing their displacement with HD cylinders, pistons, and an uploaded tune when there are much better options available. Nothing worse when your bang for the buck is followed by a crack and a crunch.
Yes sir....nail on head. Thanks Kerry!
I bought the Screaming Eagle 114 stage 4 kit DIRECTLY from harley in 2018 for a model year 2017 M8. One of the first ones.. Yes...With all the oil issues and everything else....Moral to the story. I went through "3" sets of SE heads that needed sent back just due to gauge marks in the surfacing of these parts. Weather they were made in China and finished in the US or India. There are several steps these products go through before they are finished. So even if said heads may have been cast in China. That doesn't mean they were assembled or finished there. Either way. 30,000 Miles later and still running the same mild build with stock-ish HD parts. That were clearly NOT USA finished...
That's awesome you've had great luck with it. Glad to hear.
For the prices Harley is calling up, they should deliver damn good quality. Looking at at my 27 year old sportster.
Man you making a po boy like me..love his old faithful evo
So far my 2019 FXDR-114 is still stock with no issues 👍🇺🇸, then again it only has 👉1225 miles 👈, I tend to wax it more than I ride it, 😎and that’s ok too 👍🇺🇸
What do you wax it with?
Kevin, you and your crew really get down to brass tacks on engine building and why things work or don’t work. You are providing people with the knowledge to avoid the bad stuff and quite frankly the bad shops that will just throw together any old build. I said it before and I’ll say it again. You provide the very best insight on engine builds anywhere. I’m a couple years away but when I pull the trigger I’m heading south to see you for my build. Thanks again for what you do. 👍
Thank you very much for the kind words and support! I look forward to it sir!
This really isn't all that new to those that know HD motors. In 1936 the infamous Knucklehead came out, it had a 3 5/16" bore as it was 61 cubic inches. In 1941 the 74" 3 7/16" bore longer stroke motor came out. All in all the bigger 74's worked well until the cylinders were bored .050" or greater during overhauls when they easily exploded, especially at the drag strip.
I agree...not new at all. Going too far was a disaster waiting to happen on any cylinder. What's different though...is that STOCK M8 cylinders in stock bore size, were having the problem. No other HD ever has. Still working to determine the exact cause so its not a risk when boring to an acceptable size.
I love watching videos on people figuring out what wrong with Harley's.
Makes me glad I bought a 01 Honda Valkyrie 1500.
It depresses me at how low the quality is on these expensive bikes..
Great video and good info, I have not had problems yet (knock on wood) boring the 107 to 4.125 but as you stated it takes a lot of patience to get that spigot bored and honed to the correct clearance. I believe you are correct in your assessment of the problem with the construction of the liner. I have used several sets of the Daytona cylinders like were shown in the video with zero problems. They really are a great value . They should be making 4.125 twincam cylinders as well. I have seen guys take the twincam "bigger bore" cylinders out to 4.125 but I have yet to try that. As I am sure you know some of those early ones were not very good quality either. It's interesting that we are 4 years into this M8 and still learning how to consistently get reliable power out of them with no issues (oiling etc.) I'm just starting to really like this platform. Edit; One more thing to add, where I feel a problem is occurring causing cracking. The spigot on the M8 is tapered for cylinder to cylinder clearance. After they are bored they can end up with an almost sharp edge and the bottom of the spigot. I always cut this down a bit to end up with a flat surface to avoid a stress riser and don't get carried away with a ring lead in taper.
Thanks Bob. I've spoken to many other builders as well...some Im sure you know. Some are seeing the same thing but not on every one. Others, like you, have said "no issue" as of yet. However...HD had a problem with stock 107 cyls breaking in the same fashion in 17 and early 18 which is why they changed something with the cylinder...and why i waited a little while to start boring them to 4.125...leading me to believe it has less to do with bore size, and more to do with cylinder construction, case geometry, rod length, piston dwell time at BDC, etc. As I said...I'm still working on the theory to try and determine the exact cause. I have not bored those M8 cyls to 4.125 myself...but I do have a few bikes here that were built by others, with broken skirts. I will be cutting many more broken M8 cylinders open over the next few days. Side note....I know several who will run TC 4" bore to 4.060, and 4.060 to 4.125 and they havent had any issues....but it's simply not a risk im willing to take. It's purely a choice...not saying those that do are wrong. Fact remains, many TC engines have run far thinner skirts when compared to an M8 3.937 bored to 4.125....and the TC cyls didn't seem to have a widespread issue. So something has to be causing it. I completely agree with the taper. Instead of a razor sharp edge, cut a small scallop into the spigot for clearance and round the edge. Any machinist with any experience knows, sharp corners and edges lead to failure. Even a slight radius is helpful. Thanks for your insight and comment...and for contributing. I enjoyed reading it.
What’s are guy’s located? (State,city)?
Winder, GA. 723 W Winder Industrial Blvd.
I have a S&S 124" T series crate motor on my 2006 Road Glide. I bought the motor new from S&S in 2015. Seems to be holding up just fine. I could have bought a new bike with an M8 but I have heard too many horror stories, such as these.
Kevin Baxter can you do a video only about M8 engine, the years of the engine vs the problems and the solution for the problem to rise the reliability of that engine? And what harley changed through the years.
That will be integrated into the current series. great comment. thanks.
@@KevinBaxter nice I will be waiting for that video, personal I belive I never saw a video with that topic about the years vs problems and solutions about only M8. Best regards.
Are the 2020 cylinders untouched having these issues?
I haven't seen as many consistent issues with the newer ones as I did with the earlier. Still...im hesitant to take that chance.
@@KevinBaxter I got 2,200 miles on my M8, hopefully I won't have to give you an update saying otherwise 😜
Hey Kevin, Heard about Any cylinder breakage on the OE 131 cylinders?
Or is the breakage just cylinders bored out afterwards?
It occured on completely stock cyls in 2017 to early 18, and yes...i've heard of 131s doing it as well...have not seen one in my shop yet though.
My 94 FXDL has over 100k. Still runs. AMF saved Harleys bacon. Towards the end of the TC, they had a good engine. Bought my second "new" Harley in October 2022.
My new FXBBS is great. All it gets is a pipe,a tune, and high flow air filter element. Pretty salty at 114ci. Rode Triumphs for years. Still have a couple.
My first Harley Davidson was a 1940 knuck chopper. Well, only the engine was 1940...
62 transmission, jocky shift, 1957 frame, a girder fork, and damn near no brakes!!!
Wow. Very interesting vlog. Think you upgrade your bike at your peril.😬. We all know that metal expands and contracts with heat.Thats a fact.That notch you highlight on the M8 might 'pin' the sleeve and cause different expansion rates, hence the cracking.
Is there a difference in the 95 big bore kit going to 98 vs the original 88 going to 98? 95 kit that harley sold separately is the one I'm referring to.
When you buy a big bore cylinder kit from HD...its the exact same as a stock cylinder, just bored bigger. HD never sold a 98 kit...aftermarket only. We have bored 88 and 95 cyls to 98 cyls since 2000 that size with no issue as memory serves. Only difference...bore them bigger. However, Rev Perf made a solid alum cylinder in that size many years ago and it was nik/sil coated...that was a disaster. Personally, I wouldnt go that route. 88=3.75 bore. 95=3.875 bore. 98=3.937 bore and that is as far as youd want to go safely.
Kevin what’s your thoughts on quality of Daytona 4.250 cylinders in 128 big bore kits
So, you guys are saying that Harley Davidson should spec the stock cylinders so they can be bored larger? They should intentionally spend more money so you can make a 103” a 107”?
I’m not apologizing for H-D, but that’s ridiculous. Buy new cylinders, from Kevin.
I have been a precision machinist working with many prototype machines and their individual steel components for 30 years. I have machined countless parts made from many different types of materials and have machined many bores of all types of configurations over thirty years. I also worked very closely with our mechanical engineering department on various prototype projects. All I can say is this is very amateur engineering on Harley-Davidson’s part, just by looking at these long protruding cylinder sleeve skirts especially the one with the skirts cut out with no structural support are a disaster waiting to happen! You also have to consider the difference in heat expansion between the cylinder sleeve that is actually pressed in the cylinder and the portion of the cylinder sleeve that is thin and not supported by the aluminum cylinder walls. Their tends to be a egg shape in most bores after final machining as well. At the least a matching and mating radius should be machined in both the case base and the protruding cylinder sleeve as it exits the actual aluminum cylinder. Their should never be sharp angles at the weakest stress points. Harley-Davidson’s mechanical engineers should known better. Very shocking something so basic in simple physics is overlooked and produced by a major motor company. Sad really... it’s better to over engineer any day!
As you know Paul...we will agree on all your points. The long spigot on Twin Cam has never been an issue provided its bored correctly. They hold up very well. That unique feature in the M8 cylinder was my focus on the video really....and my theory as to why they are breaking even on stock cylinders....and of course, lack of radius at the intersecting points. Great comment sir...thank you so much!
I didn't know Harley had any actual motor engineers. The V-Rod engine was farmed out to Porsche. The EVO was designed by Textron AMF.
I put 19,000 on my M8 114 in the first summer with zero problems. This video is showing cylinders BORED to their limits! not stock!
KEVIN, I HAVE A 2017 STREET GLIDE WITH 10K EASY MILES ON HER. THIS WEEKEND WHILE RIDING I HAVE A MAJOR OIL LEAK COMING FROM THE REAR CYLINDER. SEEMS TO BE COMING FROM THE TOP, I ASSUME BETWEEN ROCKER BOX AND JUG, JUST ABOVE THE OIL HOSE COMING OUT THE REAR OF THE CYLINDER. THE BIKE RUNS FINE, OTHERWISE. IS THAT A COMMON ISSUE? THANKS!
Great video Kevin, with great information. Thanks for taking the time to share, I am learning lots. Cheers
Glad you enjoyed it Thank you very much.
Kevin!!! Bro! I was cruising my 03 RK doing 55, accelerated to 60 when suddenly I heard, out of the blue, the weirdest “bang, bang, bang” and quickly let off throttle bringing my RPMs down. In this vid (4:18), you mentioned the bang issue. With my TC88 at just over 60k, I’m now thinking the worst! Damn it!!! Luckily noise went away so as to get home... 😞 But now am leery riding my baby. I got to get her fixed. Damn it!!! I guess it’s time for a new engine. I was looking to replace cam plate with S&S kit and cams w/ hydro-tensioner or gear drive (preferably - providing TIR is w/i .003)... now this...UUUugh! Recommendations? I gots to get’r done, love my squidly freedom... 🇺🇸
I wouldnt run it anymore until you take it down and check a few things. Run out, cyl pressure, leak down, etc.
Great video and very interesting.
You said that you saw this issue on 2017 - early 2018 models... does that mean that HD fixed this issue on 2019 - 2020 models ?
I'm interested by the 2020 FXLRS but when I see that...
Cheers from France !
I wasnt the only one that saw that issue early on. It was kept relatively quiet but was widespread. I'm currently looking into the later model cylinders to see if there was a change. The problem with the stock cylinders has not been anywhere near as widespread on the later models, leading me to believe yes, something did change. I'm working on that answer. I'm not the type to guess at a solution or cause however...speculation is good because it leads us to investigation. But until I can be certain of the cause, or the solution, i will not state it as fact. More details to come for sure as myself, and others i trust in this industry, continue to investigate. It's all in the spirit of providing the best most reliable product we can for our customers.
@@KevinBaxter thank you very much for this feedback !
@@KevinBaxter Hi kevin ..So was the 2020 barrels fixed or upgraded ??
Just purchase new cylinders with thicker liner, problem solved!
I have a 2014 Street glide and I want to do a 110 upgrade, however I keep hearing that the skirts are way too thin and the engines don't last😳 what is your opinion on that 🤔
I'm reluctant to recommend a 110. There are so many other options that are less intrusive and provide more power without a sacrifice in reliability. That's why we dont offer them despite our ability to build anything.
I put the screaming eagle 110 tire shedder kit on my 2011 dyna street bob, I very much recommend it. 106hp/122 tq runs great but I hardly rev it past 5k rpms.
Great video. Love these TH-cam algorithms that enables me to find channels like this.
Glad you like them! Welcome...and thank you mark
Agree with your assessment, but not because of the notch. From what I saw in the Video, the M8 SLEEVE is not under cut with a radius like the Twin is. A perfect 90 Deg cut in machining is a stress point. This is a perfect reason for cracking. IMO
I agree with you 100% there as well. Its about as square of a corner as you can get. STOOOOPID! Lol
Typically speaking, would you relate these issues to stage 3 upgrades vs stage 2? In other words have you seen a cam swap cause a cylinder to crack, right?
cant say that....because ive seen many completely stock M8 engines have broken cylinders. That was a big issue on the 2017 and early 18 models.
This is why I keep my m8 stock 20,000 on it still running amazing
I am interested in the pro 120 kit for my 2017 Street Glide special. The question I have, if I brought my bike to your shop, and wanted your personal to do the work, is that possible?
Sure we can do that. Call the shop at 6782269651 to schedule it in.
I couldn't help thinking of the de Havilland Comet, first commercial jetliner. It had windows that had sharp corners that stress cracked. That cylinder at 2.50 of the video looks like the cylinders were cut with a sharp corner at the step where the cracks were happening. The fix was of course, ovals at the corners to spread the stress over a larger area. Same idea to stop a small stress crack, drill a round hole at the end of the crack. That is not meant to be the solution here. LOL!
nail on the head sir....thank you.
The best Harley engine ever was the Revolution no doubts, it passed successfully in the first try the Düsseldorf Test witch is a rigorous endurance test that requires an engine to run for 500 hours without failure in high RPMs non stop.
A great engine format for sure. Dont recall seeing a single common issue with those. Scott Fitzgerald at Fitzgerald Motorsports in Ohio is a good friend...he knows those engines inside and out.
I used to piss a harley guy off at work saying im going to put my vtx motor in my road king so its reliable.
What the hell is THAT, in the background! LoL...holly FRICK, I can't concentrate. LoLÖLoL
hahaha. those are foam sound panels. makes the audio sound much better. without, there is a major echo.
Sure glad I own two Indians, 21 scout and 22 super chief.
I'm glad I didn't have mine bored over. I had a heavy breather, wood knight prowler 22x cam, and short shots installed along with a full tune by the dealer before I took delivery. All covered by the warranty forever in writing.
Performance can be very reliable...often vastly improving on stock components...provided its done proper.
How far can you safely bore a 96 jug can it be bored to a 107 without fear of spigot cracking or is it better to just buy new jugs. Thxs Bryan
I, as well as many other reputable machine shops, have been boring stock TC cyls to 3.937 since the early 2000s successfully. I wouldnt hesitate to do it now on my own bike or a customers bike. If i had seen a pattern or failures as a result, I simply wouldnt do it. Is there a slight risk that it could crack? Sure.....but the same risk comes with virtually any cylinder really.
Who makes the cylinders you are using? Or do you have them made for your shop
currently having them made
Is there a problem with the m8 107 if you can here a slight ticking sound when it’s running?
all engines make noise. if you could ride the engine in your car, youd be amazed at the noise they make. i cant honestly answer your question as i havent heard it. if its always done it since new, most likely its not an issue. if it came on suddenly, or suddenly got worse, it could be a sign of a problem.
Yes. The problem with it is it's an M8.
@@tigerseye73 poor guy don't hate
Your theory makes sense to me FWIW , but that and two bux will get you a dollar cuppa mud .. Is the sleeve a sleeve that can be pressed out and replaced ??
its cast in place unfortunately. So....out they go, replace and custom fit good ones.
Kevin - whats your opinion on the 2014 Touring CVO 110 motor reliability and longevity. I’ve got 20K miles on mine.
The 110 had a few issues but werent extremely common other than the flywheel issues in the earlier years. 2014 wasnt a terrible year really. Most common issue was valve seats dropping, and cylinders out of round causing oil consumption, piston slap, etc. Another issue was cylinder base leaks but when they redesigned the oring to a quad seal, it solved that problem for the most part. The compensator was better by that year...but....the auto primary chain tensioners were always an issue. Listen for a whirring sound....could be a main drive gear bearing in the trans going out. Even with that being a large bore, thin skirt cylinder....they did not have a problem with them breaking. I dont recall one. That's why that one feature on those M8 cylinders stood out. Its the only one that ever had that, and the only one that has had a problem with it stock.
Change your oil to tribodyn and you'll be protected....look it up man, good stuff...the 110 tc is an awesome motor
dont panic. it really wasnt a bad engine as they were around longer. the first few years, not so great. but, 7 years later, in 2014...they were far better than the very first generation. the issues werent widespread but, the ones that had problems, seem to have the same problems.
Thanks Kevin, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my question! Recon I’ll keep it over trading for an M8, for now anyway. Motor runs great, no over heating issues since tuned and de-catted.
Fantastic information to be made available Kevin. Too bad you aren’t the head of engineering for Harley. Just so I understand because I’m a little slow. Are the problems coming from the “stock cylinders” only or are they a result of being bored after the stock has been installed in the bike and then having a shop change the bore size for a new engine? Sorry for the dumb question. Thanks in advance.
Not a dumb question at all sir...you are welcome here. The problem was occurring on stock unmodified cyls. That seems to not be happening as frequently which means something changed with the stock ones...figuring out what at this time.
Kevin Baxter thank you so much for the quick response Kevin.
Good show Keving. I will send my wish list soon & will bring U the bike so U do the small afordable first the.
Can't wait!
I'd say, they have reached the limit on how wide the bore can be made in the sleeve, due to the sleeve itself, not the jugs
You can't cut the sleeve so thin, and expect it to contain all that goes on in a cylinder in the normal course of its operation.
Less metal means weaker walls...
Especially with the 131. Our 124 embarrasses that engine and is reliable. Funny to watch. We were building 120 TC almost 8 years before the HD 120 came out, making more power, and i have hundreds of them still on the road tapping 100,000 miles or more....and we embarrassed that one too. LOL I agree...at some point...more is too much. When it gets to the point you start running tool steel for cylinder liners JUST to squeeze in a few more cubic inches, enough is enough.
Kev, if you were my teacher back at school, I could probably afford a hot M8.
haha. thanks!
As an old drag racer once told me, "Stock is Trick!"
My old '98 EVO will outlast any M8 pig engine. Never had a single problem with it all these years.
Very well explained. I'll keep my stock T/C going as long as possible ...
Thats a very good plan my friend. 😉
Charlie wright. Forgot to give my name so u would know who wants the 107 works hope to see U soon a big fan & with much respect to U my fucher friend. U have the head knollage i wish i had but am a averig wrench my bike is akeep & U can make it what H. D. Should have made the first time instead of a want tobe bike an a weak P. O. S.
Excellent Charlie. Thank you sir. I look forward to it!
I realize this was posted 7 months ago, but one of your pupils is hyper-dilated (anisocoria?) Did something happen? More importantly, are you okay?
Im perfectly fine. I'm actually blind in my right eye...was shot with a CO2 pellet pistol at point blank in my youth. Went completely thru and my eye exploded into several pieces...pretty lucky to be here actually. Instead of a glass eye, I chose to have the eye sewn back together and keep the one god gave me. Of course, certain pieces cant be sewn back together so it stays dilated. Also...when i get extremely tired, it tends to drift to the right. I don't have many tattoos...but i have a bunch of scars. In my 20s, i was a bit ashamed of it and tried cosmetic contact lenses...but then i grew up and dont care anymore. Again....it's a "life" scar type of story. Thanks for asking.
Me personally would just buy a stock Hayabusa and have double the h.p.
Nothing wrong with the M8. Just because someone has the tools to bore a cylinder doesn't mean it's a good idea. It's made that thick for a reason. The reason is so it doesn't flex.
Buy it and ride it. No problem.
problem is...they break stock unmodified in M8....TC and earlier wasnt an issue....which is the reason for determining the cause. still working on it.
Harley manufacturers fine grenades lol.
Excellent information very knowledgeable and thank you for your follow great help
Very welcome
Very informative... thanks so much. 👍🇬🇧
Glad it was helpful!
When purchasing a big bore kit with whole new jugs for my m8 from leading edge performance, are the cylinders bored on such a kit or just made from scratch??
All have to be bored. Cyl sleeves are either cast into the cylinder or pressed in. Either way, they have to be bored to specific size and honed to precision fit. How far they are bored and the thickness of the spigot is the concern. I am not aware of how they are doing your cylinders. If they are boring stock ones, having theirs made, or buying from somewhere and doing the finish work themselves...really doesnt matter as long as its done well.
Ok great! Thanks for the insight kev!
Sucks that the distance from here to there is over 10,000 miles, and most of the ride is under water, still there's always freight once I finish my build list, pity though.
Ive had bikes in the shop from all over the planet for various different things. I'm very proud of that fact. Its just a short boat ride. Thank you very much for the kind words.
@@KevinBaxter Mate if my bike comes, I'll be coming with it. :)
OZ is a pretty awesome place Me. Of course, all my time was always spent on the Gold Coast....or Sidney/Brisbane, etc.
@@KevinBaxter It's nice up on the east coast, rellies in Sydney, about 1200 miles east of us, as the crow flies, couple of days on a good bike. Never been over your way, might have to find and excuse. Or at least add it to the bucket list.
Well, if you make it, we'll fry up some chicken, shoot some guns, and fly a flag from the back of a jacked up 4x4 LOL. You may know Rollies....Rollie is a good friend. John and Berto there are great fellas too. Adam and Julie at APL Performance are good friends as well. Then Malcolm Martin at Morgan and Wacker HD is a very long time friend too. Love my time over there.
Thanks Kevin. I always enjoy your videos and alway learn something.
Thank you very much.
Great information, a little too good to obtain for no cost
IMO similar to SBF 347 stroker engines...Too much angle on the bottom of the stroke which pushes the piston against the bottom wall of the cylinder too much....On a SBF it will start to eat oil compared to a 331 or 302.... Thats a BLOCK though not thin sleeve on the bottom like that.
The engines fail because that is standard for HD. I went to BMWs and never ever had an engine problem of any kind in over 12 years.
Pleased to hear it! I had an evo electraglide that had many many kms on it and ran perfect. Slight oil leak at cylinder base once that was fixed by a seven thousand km ride! Had an R80 BMW that was pretty good(needed clutch and gearbox repairs at about 250000kms!). ..but my K1300R had a front electronic damper fail at 30000km which was quoted by BMW at $1000 to replace. My sons BMW F650 ate its valves at about 80000 (regular services at dealer). Just saying that any machine is just a machine and can fail. Not brand bashing, just saying. Also hope my M8 Softail gives me the trouble free days and kms that the evo glide did!!
It’s why I ride a victory
never had any problems with any of my harleys.
S&S back peddled on warranty on their 110" twin cam cylinder failures after they admitted having a problem, i hope they know the tens of thousands of dollars of product sales they lost because of it, i will never recommend another cyl of theirs, too bad, I'm sure all of them can't be junk.
Maybe if they went to a solid one piece crankshaft and offset the cylinders the amount required for the connecting rods. You would gain 2 major items, first the crankshaft would be MUCH stronger and no longer would shift which is a common problem with assembled crankshaft. The second gain would be the offset the cylinders you would get much better cooling for the rear cylinder. Don't believe me use either a thermal camera or a digital thermal gauge and you will see a much higher rear temp. Not mentioned is that the rear cylinder is way overrepresented for this cylinder cracking. So for the most part these engines are getting HOT, notice as the engine displacement increases the problem grows in kind.
Stock & Ride!!!!;-)) Peace
Nothing like better quality parts. I don't mind paying more for them either, as they are made to last.
Couldnt agree more sir. Thank you.
The lip is creating a harmonic frequency thats different from the rest of the bore. As the piston comes down it passes that lip and due to no surrounding support from the rest of the bore as well as the slight force put on it from the point just before tip over you going get flex. I think kevin is a very good harley tech. I have been a master tech with over 40 years under my belt. I certainly agree with his assertion that it is due to the lip as well as the possibility of improper honing techniques. I made a support jig just for lower skirts to keep the outward expansion from occurring. All you kids out there need to pay attention. This guy is passing on very valuable knowledge.
Love your channel man, between yours and Tatro Machine ive learned more in 2 years than I have all my short life at 45 now!....what do think about tribodyn oil Kevin?...
Thank you Michael. Appreciate it. That's an oil brand I've never heard of...and another one for me to look into. Thanks!
@@KevinBaxter thanks for the fast reply!....tribodyn is made in North carolina...ive learned about it from Keenan Tatro of Tatro Machine...its a super oil as far as I'm concerned....i have it for all 3 engine primary and trans if my road king ever gets finished from a piston and head upgrade!....id love to hear what your opinions are of this oil Kevin...thanks again man
Kevin, I have a reasonable suspicion about this since it is occurring on "some" of these and not others. If you look at the area of the crack where the spigot meets the casting. If there is a slight undercut there, you may need a magnifying glass tot see it. This will cause the cylinders to crack in the same means. This is caused by the tool used for these cuts when it is tried being worn out and having a "hook" at the tip. This just means mfg. needs to adjust his MTBF one or ten before it occurs.
I use to see this at Chrysler. I worked in powertrain. We use to bore out cylinders sometimes if a casting was bad we’d bore right through a side wall. 🙈🤔. Good info
Does that step down in the spiget have somethin to do with sleave retention that it has to have that shoulder
Yes however, if the sleeve extends beyond the casting where it meets the case and the head hold it in place. There has never been another harley cylinder produced, ever, even in the aftermarket, that had that little step down.
The best thing about Hardly Abelson is they convert gas into useless amounts of noise pollution without the side effect of horsepower, plus people pay for just the name.
Wow that's unsettling knowing that if cylanders are done wrong that they could come apart at the wrong time on the road going 70 mph or lower speed...the passenger would probably be screaming...just sayin. And for once I understood the video. So glad you are fixing our bike.
I've been telling people for years that if they want to go big bore on any of these engines they're best off getting aftermarket cylinders (quality American made one's) because they already address most of the issues like this, I won't even bore a set of factory cylinders for a big bore, I tell people if they're not going to do it right then I don't want my name associated with it.
Kevin, do you have these cylinders for a 110 twin cam how would they fit in my case how much are they ? thanks, jerry
I suspect that they did this to prevent people from boring out the cylinders themselves so that you would buy their factory stage 4 kits.
That was awesome Kev, thank you.
Very welcome. Thank you. Glad you enjoyed it.