in more technical terms; the angle will not change if the person who staggered does not move significantly (who draws aggro first before others) and will instead want to track that player, regardless of animation played. if staggered from back-to-front, the enemy direction locks to the aggressor when they begin getting up. in this context, positional and AI data is recorded on the first frame an animation begins -- the AI is just immobile until the knockdown ends. the AI will be static for the duration of the animation played, and will queue its priority to whoever staggered them for when the stagger phase ends, causing their backstab cone to snap to that player. stormvermin overheads and stuff are weird and i don't understand why specifically a dodge causes their angle to lock up, but it makes sense gameplay wise -- and they are the exception to the rule. turnovers from charges and some sorts of "vulnerability" states do not cause the AI to pause, and its position/angle is updated constantly in order to continue to attack their priority target (the one they were charging in the first place, most likely).
Dodge used to stall out enemies for like 1.5 seconds. With winds of magic they reduced that time but ad far as I know it's still in place and probably the cause. Certain looks the same.
That is correct. You can abuse the hell out of it with troll which afaik is the only enemy that seems to ONLY update facing when it finishes its attack.
I've always used Souls-games logic in terms of what constitutes a backstab, which has kept me firmly within the backstab-parameters in Vermintide it seems.
1 thing i'd LOVE to see on "today i learned" - how to fight plague monks in melee. They are pain in the ass if you can't stagger them out of combo or oneshot bodyshot. Some tricks, safe ways to kill them without getting hit, for different weapons/careers would be so nice!
hm. so this is going to sound dumb if you know this already but...once they start their attack chain they only attack the person they started on. so, either bait yourself and let your team kill em or bait your team and you kill them. You should also use mods to just watch their attack combo so you memorize it. does that help?
@@j_sat it doesnt sound dumb even though i do know it :P sometimes plagues come in a corridor without space to maneuver, sometimes you have to deal with them alone, and when there are 3+ of them they're always a problem for me, unless i can oneshot, stagger them out of combo or kill in ranged combat, but that's not always possible.
Also sounds like dumb advice but just be patient. Just wait for them to finish their attacks, it sounds silly but the monks can be scary, once you get used to how erratic the animations are, how scary they sound and how they can apply a lot of pressure, you'll quickly realise that really it's just a mental thing, you can pretty much block and dodge jump away safely with good timing and understanding of their combos. With all fights and encounters in Vermintide preparation is everything, don't let yourself be surprised by any fight, if you hear a plague monk aggro you need to make a mental note that you made a mistake by not being prepared. If you know the plague monks are going to aggro you can better space and prepare yourself for them.
They can't move very quickly, or turn very quickly, while they perform their flurry attack. You can try to out-space them with reach weapons, or dodge behind them while they flurry. This is risky when there's more than one of them.
@@solarupdraft one plague is not a problem, 3-5 plagues when im melee only i dont have space to switch to range weapon and shoot them, that's a problem :p
Perhaps this video is a tad more lengthy than needed to get the info across, but I appreciate an in-depth look at details of the combat mechanics. I've always assumed the backstab would trigger in a vertically extruded triangle behind the enemy. I even got grumpy at times when my backstabs didn't work with huge altitude differences... all those fancy jump attack backstabs attempts gone to waste because it's actually a cone. I've learned something about the game. Thank you!
I returned to verm 2 like a week ago looked u up n saw u were not active n was disappointed! Now after a night trying to get friends into game i see you are back! I like your content! Very clear and succinct ur like a verm 2 version of filthy robot.
@@j_sat If you ever fancy another type of game Civ 5 is a great alternative, 4X game strategy you can play with friends and solo and also nice to play while you listed to podcast/ watch netflix. Filthy will teach you the ropes, his vids on civ 5 are almost autistic in how clean he is at giving you info! (kinda like you lol) anyway good job i cant watch party knife coz 80% of his vids are irrelevant nonsense i cant parse (i know people love that but its not for me).
I didnt play much shade but i and im sure many other long time players have always suspected that backstabs were more finicky than it seems. I think its one of the reasons why shade is so underused in more casual play
it wouldn't surprise me if there were 3 states for the fall animation; falling down, on ground, and getting up. this way you can have an indeterminate length of time on the ground. this is often used for jumping in games like skyrim where they don't know how long you'll be falling for. i don't know how it works in stringray, but at least in UE4, there are root and non-root animations. root animations will actually move the character in the world. the difference being if a character had a run forward and swing animation, the non-root version would "teleport" them back to wherever they started the animation from when it finished, because as far as the engine is concerened they never moved. the root version would leave them standing wherever the animation finished.
5:12 for those with a little game dev knowledge, the answer is simple... the direction of the enemy object is what counts, and the animation has no relevance to anything.
Yeah, everything to do with angles is to do with a sphere, hence why you said cone as it's just a sphere but only 114 degrees projecting from the back of enemies. Like there is a cool thing with Shields, they have 180 degree block angle, if you use +push/block angles, you can look straight up and push enemies with max strength 360 degrees around you as the sphere will be completed around you
So happy for my crazy coincidence. Just about 4 days ago, I decided to reinstall V2... looked you up on youtube, only to find that you had just started posting vid's again after a haitus. Welcome back, and keep the great content coming!! I feel like I have a lot to catch up on (stopped playing before WoM). Edit: What's your current take on dual daggers vs sword and dagger? I see you're using S/D, but didn't know if gameplay/balance has shifted.
On the footman part, if the footman was knocked past shade so that he's behind her, does that mean footman always faces the shade during sprawl and get up animation? like: kruber ---- shade ---- chaos
@@j_sat When I try, it dont seem to have a big effect, but maybe it is possible to see it with your cool mod "BS" have you tried it yet? Btw. Welcome back and thanks for your informative videos 👍
How does he have his graphics set so bizarrely low? I'd like to know bc my friend struggles to run the game so this would be amazing for him so we can play together
Lol! I removed em, check here Potato Graphics Guide by Mr Chen: steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2255915633 (don't help game performance but I like the look for now and it helps with streaming and recording) Sorry for the late reply.
j_sat - respond to your comments. We are asking why you took 1 year off? We are asking how have you been? We are asking why you have interest in the game all of a sudden? WE ARE ASKING WHY THE FUCK YOUR TEXTURES ARE FROM 2004?!?
So if I'm below an enemy, I have to make a clean attack in the back. If the enemy is above me, I have to make a clean attack in the back. If the enemy is getting up, I have to make a clean attack in the back. So if I'm fighting a monster the right thing to get a backstab is to attack the back. So backstab only works when the enemy is attacked from the very back, who'd knew...
![[Today I Learned] Kiting Techniques & Tactics](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SgGhjdgcf1A/mqdefault.jpg)
![[Today I Learned] Kiting Techniques & Tactics](/img/tr.png)
![Today I Learned - Attack Mechanics and Optimizing Inputs [Will Improve Your Game]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/437LsMszV8U/mqdefault.jpg)
Backstab Indicator courtesy of Fatshark.Manny GO CHECK IT OUT: th-cam.com/video/RN0_Bg5-NNM/w-d-xo.html
thanks. this sounds like it would be the same code that is used for blocking as well, just inverted (out of your "belly button" and cone is in front).
Welcome back man, hope you're here to stay for a little while.
I think I just might Ox
@@j_sat oh yeah
I like how the mod says “this is BS” lmaooooo
Took me a moment to realise it stands for "Backstab"
thank fatshark.manny for that one I laughed too
in more technical terms;
the angle will not change if the person who staggered does not move significantly (who draws aggro first before others) and will instead want to track that player, regardless of animation played.
if staggered from back-to-front, the enemy direction locks to the aggressor when they begin getting up. in this context, positional and AI data is recorded on the first frame an animation begins -- the AI is just immobile until the knockdown ends.
the AI will be static for the duration of the animation played, and will queue its priority to whoever staggered them for when the stagger phase ends, causing their backstab cone to snap to that player. stormvermin overheads and stuff are weird and i don't understand why specifically a dodge causes their angle to lock up, but it makes sense gameplay wise -- and they are the exception to the rule.
turnovers from charges and some sorts of "vulnerability" states do not cause the AI to pause, and its position/angle is updated constantly in order to continue to attack their priority target (the one they were charging in the first place, most likely).
Dodge used to stall out enemies for like 1.5 seconds. With winds of magic they reduced that time but ad far as I know it's still in place and probably the cause. Certain looks the same.
That is correct. You can abuse the hell out of it with troll which afaik is the only enemy that seems to ONLY update facing when it finishes its attack.
I've always used Souls-games logic in terms of what constitutes a backstab, which has kept me firmly within the backstab-parameters in Vermintide it seems.
what is that rule?
@@matt8ny No rule as such, just that I've always applied the cone for backstabs in the Souls-games to Vermintide backstabs.
1 thing i'd LOVE to see on "today i learned" - how to fight plague monks in melee. They are pain in the ass if you can't stagger them out of combo or oneshot bodyshot. Some tricks, safe ways to kill them without getting hit, for different weapons/careers would be so nice!
hm. so this is going to sound dumb if you know this already but...once they start their attack chain they only attack the person they started on. so, either bait yourself and let your team kill em or bait your team and you kill them. You should also use mods to just watch their attack combo so you memorize it. does that help?
@@j_sat it doesnt sound dumb even though i do know it :P sometimes plagues come in a corridor without space to maneuver, sometimes you have to deal with them alone, and when there are 3+ of them they're always a problem for me, unless i can oneshot, stagger them out of combo or kill in ranged combat, but that's not always possible.
Also sounds like dumb advice but just be patient. Just wait for them to finish their attacks, it sounds silly but the monks can be scary, once you get used to how erratic the animations are, how scary they sound and how they can apply a lot of pressure, you'll quickly realise that really it's just a mental thing, you can pretty much block and dodge jump away safely with good timing and understanding of their combos.
With all fights and encounters in Vermintide preparation is everything, don't let yourself be surprised by any fight, if you hear a plague monk aggro you need to make a mental note that you made a mistake by not being prepared. If you know the plague monks are going to aggro you can better space and prepare yourself for them.
They can't move very quickly, or turn very quickly, while they perform their flurry attack. You can try to out-space them with reach weapons, or dodge behind them while they flurry. This is risky when there's more than one of them.
@@solarupdraft one plague is not a problem, 3-5 plagues when im melee only i dont have space to switch to range weapon and shoot them, that's a problem :p
This is so helpful, I'm super glad to see you're back!
I'm glad too thanks catnip
Wow, did I just traveled in time? This series bring my memory back to 2018, when I just started playing this game.
👍
I've played this game for 1.400h, yet you still manage to teach me new stuff like you did when I was at 40.
There is so much detail in this game
More learning! glad this series is back.
Me too
Perhaps this video is a tad more lengthy than needed to get the info across, but I appreciate an in-depth look at details of the combat mechanics. I've always assumed the backstab would trigger in a vertically extruded triangle behind the enemy. I even got grumpy at times when my backstabs didn't work with huge altitude differences... all those fancy jump attack backstabs attempts gone to waste because it's actually a cone. I've learned something about the game. Thank you!
Yeah I usually try and give you guys the key info in
Finaly !!!! Very happy your back on you tube .. your videos have helped much .. your FOW strat got us that cata frame :)
Glad to hear it!
welcome back, keep up the content love the videos daddy sat
Can we go with Mr over daddy?
Never used the talent for regaining ammo on BS because half the time it didn't seem to work, now I know why. Thanks for the clarification 😎👍 Cheers
It was tough to force backstabs without the new vanish talent.
@@j_sat ah yes, maybe I'll try it again
Missed your content, sensei.
Keep it up!
Will do
I returned to verm 2 like a week ago looked u up n saw u were not active n was disappointed! Now after a night trying to get friends into game i see you are back!
I like your content! Very clear and succinct ur like a verm 2 version of filthy robot.
He has nice thumbnails...I kinda wish I did too but they feel...idk. Weird to make? Glad it was helpful.
@@j_sat If you ever fancy another type of game Civ 5 is a great alternative, 4X game strategy you can play with friends and solo and also nice to play while you listed to podcast/ watch netflix. Filthy will teach you the ropes, his vids on civ 5 are almost autistic in how clean he is at giving you info! (kinda like you lol) anyway good job i cant watch party knife coz 80% of his vids are irrelevant nonsense i cant parse (i know people love that but its not for me).
Awesome to have you back
Thanks for the info dude, I jumped a lot and failed many backstaps in the past for sure...
I didnt play much shade but i and im sure many other long time players have always suspected that backstabs were more finicky than it seems. I think its one of the reasons why shade is so underused in more casual play
Yeah I think that is right. Also shade gets value when you position away from the team which is risky.
Thanks. This is something I wouldn't test on my own but like to know.
Yeah...I get like...fixated. I have to know or it just bothers me.
it wouldn't surprise me if there were 3 states for the fall animation; falling down, on ground, and getting up. this way you can have an indeterminate length of time on the ground. this is often used for jumping in games like skyrim where they don't know how long you'll be falling for.
i don't know how it works in stringray, but at least in UE4, there are root and non-root animations. root animations will actually move the character in the world. the difference being if a character had a run forward and swing animation, the non-root version would "teleport" them back to wherever they started the animation from when it finished, because as far as the engine is concerened they never moved. the root version would leave them standing wherever the animation finished.
This is probably right. During the falling down animation the unit can still move but as far as I could tell does not turn.
5:12 for those with a little game dev knowledge, the answer is simple... the direction of the enemy object is what counts, and the animation has no relevance to anything.
Very interesting information. Shade is a favorite of mine so thank you.
My favorite lately too. Those backstab chains are addictive
@@j_sat Let me know if you need a teammate for your runs. I could use some tutoring for my own.
Yeah, everything to do with angles is to do with a sphere, hence why you said cone as it's just a sphere but only 114 degrees projecting from the back of enemies. Like there is a cool thing with Shields, they have 180 degree block angle, if you use +push/block angles, you can look straight up and push enemies with max strength 360 degrees around you as the sphere will be completed around you
Senpai is alive!
Hope all is well :)
Also I couldn’t stop laughing at the ‘This is BS’ indicator
Thank fatshark.Manny for that one I laughed too :D
love to see u again on youtube. Thanks for the great Content
Thanks Zunai. I'm having fun again so I'm happy to make more.
interesting to know, even for other careers
Good to have you back jsat
Good to be back
Thank you jsat, very cool!
You got it Turtle. Who is the cat?
@@j_sat no idea, found it on the internet
this was super interesting and useful!! thanks so much for researching this
Glad it was helpful
I hope you do some Vermintide Science like this for head hits while they're falling or on the ground, especially the CW
So happy for my crazy coincidence. Just about 4 days ago, I decided to reinstall V2... looked you up on youtube, only to find that you had just started posting vid's again after a haitus. Welcome back, and keep the great content coming!! I feel like I have a lot to catch up on (stopped playing before WoM).
Edit: What's your current take on dual daggers vs sword and dagger? I see you're using S/D, but didn't know if gameplay/balance has shifted.
Nice to see you again!
Thanks Kat
Welcome back, sensei !🤗🤗
Good to be back
Return of the King
:)
Welcome back gorgeous
😊
Did he just uploaded 2 videos in 2 days? At least something good in 2020... :D
and another one 2 days after that!
Welcome back man!
Good to be back
Let the learning resume once more, welcome back!
But can verminscience explain what conditions provoke upperpokes? X)
Nice, thanks for the info
👍
Very helpful, just started playing shade as well. Spear is very fun on her. What do you think about the spear?
Excellent weapon with crit spam it is just a bit worse for clutching and backstab hunting. SD DD and spear all about as good.
jsat best youtuber
On the footman part, if the footman was knocked past shade so that he's behind her, does that mean footman always faces the shade during sprawl and get up animation?
like:
kruber ---- shade ---- chaos
This is a very good question....Remind me to tell you the answer in a few days.
Good to know video. What about the bill troll, can shade get in the cone when he is kneeling?
Good question i'm like 98% sure yes remind me in a few days and I'll tell you.
@@j_sat When I try, it dont seem to have a big effect, but maybe it is possible to see it with your cool mod "BS" have you tried it yet?
Btw. Welcome back and thanks for your informative videos 👍
Build info for this video👍🏼
Are you running a mod to make the map textures potatoe? Recently got into the modded scene but get fps dips when the ai spawns enough ai xD
I was on the time--it is unlikely to improve performance unless you have a very low gpu, cpu is the limiting factor
that cone reminds me of the byakugans blindspot
Well there goes 10 minutes on wiki...
How does he have his graphics set so bizarrely low? I'd like to know bc my friend struggles to run the game so this would be amazing for him so we can play together
could someone make a Vector marker for enemies?
to show the forward vector line and like 4 rear vector lines at the correct angles
Yeah that would be helpful. Try the modders discord maybe
He came back, but where did the textures go?
Lol! I removed em, check here Potato Graphics Guide by Mr Chen: steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2255915633 (don't help game performance but I like the look for now and it helps with streaming and recording)
Sorry for the late reply.
@@j_sat Just download more frames
What's up with your graphics? O_O
there's still things to learn?
A lot I think. How've you been J?
I still can't play with default ui
Sup tux. Should be fixed soon prop joe said.
j_sat - respond to your comments. We are asking why you took 1 year off? We are asking how have you been? We are asking why you have interest in the game all of a sudden? WE ARE ASKING WHY THE FUCK YOUR TEXTURES ARE FROM 2004?!?
Fatshark badly needs to fix the verticality of this. How does this get through quality control
It is an interesting design choice. a cone might be more intuitive than a wedge
So if I'm below an enemy, I have to make a clean attack in the back.
If the enemy is above me, I have to make a clean attack in the back.
If the enemy is getting up, I have to make a clean attack in the back.
So if I'm fighting a monster the right thing to get a backstab is to attack the back.
So backstab only works when the enemy is attacked from the very back, who'd knew...
Yup sounds like you got it bud.
14 minutes telling that backstab can be provided from back? Seriously?
Seriously. I just keep saying it over and over. :P
Thank you for making more content ♡
I'm enjoying it again so expect more