Great take on tunneling vs effective pitches like hard sweepers. You want certain pitches to tunnel with how long they look the same depending on speed and movement. Nolan Ryan fastballs looks the same as a high fastball out of the hand but wont and doesnt need to stay in the tunnel long because of its massive break and speed difference. You need a fastball that hitters have to cheat on to make that as effective as him though. A gyro slider or changeup are obviously best when tunneled as much as possible. About the hard sweeper, I just think thats's a pitch that's so hard to hit that it doesnt matter much. Especially with the Nolan effect; other stuff like a dominating fastball they have to respect. I'd take the ++fastball, ++sweeper and 12/6 with Johan Santanas bugs bunny changeup over almost anything and those pitches dont really tunnel all that well.
I could have completely misinterpreted it or missed something, but was this analysis only about sharp angles toward the hitter? Would be interested to hear about sharp angles away from the hitter, if there is anything about that. Would assume the swing/take zones are flipped. Also, given the rubber side change (I believe) serves the purpose of improving one pitch (say a running fastball), does it then diminish the quality of something like a sweeper or cutter as it loses HAA? Great work as always, sorry to pepper you with questions.
Yeah! I decided to leave both those points out for the sake of simplicity. Props for catching them, especially the second one. But you’re correct, sharp angles away from the hitter create swings away and takes inside. Which is essentially explaining why sliders moving away from create swings above a 4S for example. And yep, Skenes shifting is likely causing his SL to lose a bit of performance, but the quality of the pitch is so good that I don’t think it matters as much, especially given how much he throws his 4S.
@LanceBroz That makes a lot of sense. Seems the logic behind it is improving a closer to average pitch at the slight expense of an elite pitch, which will still probably be elite with the slightly lower angle.
Fucking phenomenal stuff as always, you're a great teacher. I think I agree with your conclusion. There's a natural fear of trying different things at that level, because you might be messing with your career. So I think this is something that either very young pitchers or fringier vets would buy into, for two very different reasons. Also: super funny how this detail never came up when people were losing their minds about Skenes' fastball shape. He's gonna give righties hell.
Appreciate it. Skenes is going to be such a funky look for everybody. Huge dude with a low release is something I don’t think we capture super well on the public side (Eury is a good example here).
I am a RHP and a little bit confused but I would like to use this to my advantage. I usually stand on the far third base side of and throw primarily a SI and SL. Would I benefit from standing on yhe 1b side vs lefties? Although it’s the opposite of what skeenes does?
Slider sweeps, I’m also a tall guy like skeenes. I don’t really know my sinker metrics although I feel as if it moves similarly to most low slot sinkers
Hey man, have to say that I’m not totally giving comfortable giving advice to athletes on stuff like this. I think there are a bunch of people better out there to help you. And I’ll be honest, I doubt HAA is something that really matters much below the high minors or major leagues. Good luck this season!
@@LanceBroz Thank you I appreciate it a lot, I often tend to overthink a lot and it probably would help little to very little at the college level either way.
Hhhhh I hate seeing the term 'sweeper' because of what it is. It's just a rebrand attempt to not call a slurve a slurve. Pitching coaches cannot stand being wrong, bro. They STILL pedal the "Screwball is really bad for your arm" like that hasn't been disproven by every study ever done. Not a SINGLE study done has shown that the Screwball is worse for your arm than a fastball, slider or curve... They've proven the opposite, it's healthier. Every single time.
I would love to see a study that says screwballs “are healthier” for your arm. 😂 Slurve has more downward break. You can choose to disagree or not believe it, but that’s what the industry has decided.
whoever that pitcher is who jumps off the rubber is not pitching properly at all. those pitches shouldnt count at all. if your foot cant leave the rubber why are they ignoring him completely jumping off of it to pitch. be a better pitcher to where you dont need to do dumb ass gimmicks
My boy Strahm! How interesting
Great take on tunneling vs effective pitches like hard sweepers. You want certain pitches to tunnel with how long they look the same depending on speed and movement. Nolan Ryan fastballs looks the same as a high fastball out of the hand but wont and doesnt need to stay in the tunnel long because of its massive break and speed difference. You need a fastball that hitters have to cheat on to make that as effective as him though. A gyro slider or changeup are obviously best when tunneled as much as possible. About the hard sweeper, I just think thats's a pitch that's so hard to hit that it doesnt matter much. Especially with the Nolan effect; other stuff like a dominating fastball they have to respect. I'd take the ++fastball, ++sweeper and 12/6 with Johan Santanas bugs bunny changeup over almost anything and those pitches dont really tunnel all that well.
I could have completely misinterpreted it or missed something, but was this analysis only about sharp angles toward the hitter? Would be interested to hear about sharp angles away from the hitter, if there is anything about that. Would assume the swing/take zones are flipped. Also, given the rubber side change (I believe) serves the purpose of improving one pitch (say a running fastball), does it then diminish the quality of something like a sweeper or cutter as it loses HAA? Great work as always, sorry to pepper you with questions.
Yeah! I decided to leave both those points out for the sake of simplicity. Props for catching them, especially the second one.
But you’re correct, sharp angles away from the hitter create swings away and takes inside. Which is essentially explaining why sliders moving away from create swings above a 4S for example.
And yep, Skenes shifting is likely causing his SL to lose a bit of performance, but the quality of the pitch is so good that I don’t think it matters as much, especially given how much he throws his 4S.
@LanceBroz That makes a lot of sense. Seems the logic behind it is improving a closer to average pitch at the slight expense of an elite pitch, which will still probably be elite with the slightly lower angle.
Fucking phenomenal stuff as always, you're a great teacher.
I think I agree with your conclusion. There's a natural fear of trying different things at that level, because you might be messing with your career. So I think this is something that either very young pitchers or fringier vets would buy into, for two very different reasons.
Also: super funny how this detail never came up when people were losing their minds about Skenes' fastball shape. He's gonna give righties hell.
Appreciate it. Skenes is going to be such a funky look for everybody. Huge dude with a low release is something I don’t think we capture super well on the public side (Eury is a good example here).
@@LanceBrozalek manoah as well
@@LanceBroz saw you mentioned him in the video nevermind! thought i was into something
Bulldog hershiser used to spam the hell out of this strat
I am a RHP and a little bit confused but I would like to use this to my advantage. I usually stand on the far third base side of and throw primarily a SI and SL. Would I benefit from standing on yhe 1b side vs lefties? Although it’s the opposite of what skeenes does?
Slider sweeps, I’m also a tall guy like skeenes. I don’t really know my sinker metrics although I feel as if it moves similarly to most low slot sinkers
Hey man, have to say that I’m not totally giving comfortable giving advice to athletes on stuff like this. I think there are a bunch of people better out there to help you.
And I’ll be honest, I doubt HAA is something that really matters much below the high minors or major leagues.
Good luck this season!
@@LanceBroz Thank you I appreciate it a lot, I often tend to overthink a lot and it probably would help little to very little at the college level either way.
Hey, what MLB pitchers throw a sinker with high depth and low run? Just curious because I have a similar profile with mine.
Stroman is one. Logan Webb, a lot of lower slot guys who can’t get backspin.
Hhhhh I hate seeing the term 'sweeper' because of what it is. It's just a rebrand attempt to not call a slurve a slurve. Pitching coaches cannot stand being wrong, bro. They STILL pedal the "Screwball is really bad for your arm" like that hasn't been disproven by every study ever done. Not a SINGLE study done has shown that the Screwball is worse for your arm than a fastball, slider or curve... They've proven the opposite, it's healthier. Every single time.
I would love to see a study that says screwballs “are healthier” for your arm. 😂
Slurve has more downward break. You can choose to disagree or not believe it, but that’s what the industry has decided.
Screwball is healthier than walking, sleeping, fastball. Softball underhand toss. Petting dogs , Gatorade. Etc. All the evidence is there.
whoever that pitcher is who jumps off the rubber is not pitching properly at all. those pitches shouldnt count at all. if your foot cant leave the rubber why are they ignoring him completely jumping off of it to pitch. be a better pitcher to where you dont need to do dumb ass gimmicks