Good video! My feeling is that IDF's simply cannot be better that the DCOE's because the IDF's are on vertical assembly, causing in turn a curved intake pipeline and somehow causing a worsening to the air flow due to this curve. The DCOE's are on horizontal assembly so the pipelines are straight till the curve on the valveguide and this really improves the air flow inside those pipelines. PS: Amazing to see how much worse the Webers are with no trumpets.
At HT Racing about 25 years ago we had a new customer come to us asking for a hot Pinto for his Mk 1 RS 2000 to conform to a Historic Touring Car race series regs, to enable him to beat (in his words) 'those damn Dolomite Sprints, these regs limited the spec to standard bore and stroke and the standard original Group 1 induction system which were Weber 40 IDF's and the rules specifically said that it was 'not allowed to bore out the standard 30mm chokes' . Well our top spec 2 litre engine at the time would be good for about 225 bhp on 50 Webers with 44mm chokes and I didn't hold out much hope of getting anywhere near those numbers with the 40 IDF carbs on 30 mm chokes but I had a think about the exact wording of the rules and I had the idea of removing the chokes entirely from the carbs which was not a case of 'boring out the choke' but in my view more of an 'adjustment' and trying the completely standard IDF carbs sans chokes, which left a slightly staggered 44mm diameter hole in the carb body which although not a very smooth because of a step in the body where the choke would normally rest was a lot bigger hole than when a 30mm choke was in that hole! anyway to cut a long story short I managed to find a combination of emulsion tubes and an odd jet size pairing of mains and airs that gave a reasonably tidy power curve in spite of not having a venturi to create suction for the aux vent and the engine actually made a full 227 bhp!, I will admit that the overall engine build was a bit more special than normal as I thought we needed to get every bit out of this engine from all the other variables in case the carbs could not be made to work, this meant using a slightly higher than normal compression ratio of 13 1/2 to 1 (97 oct super unleaded fuel) decent ignition, very carefully ported head and inlet manifold, original Ford Group1 inlet valves and exhaust valves 44mm & 38mm which are homologated Group 1 size and had to be original Ford items, Ford cam followers and our own HT1 camshaft which originated as a Holbay 4011F but with a different lobe centre angle, I developed this cam with the cooperation of John Reed the boss of Holbay at the time and because of the money we spent on testing cams he granted us the rights to the cam and put the designation of HT1 on it, we subsequently got them made by Kent Cams whose products were vastly superior at the time to both Piper Cams and Numan Cams. Anyway although the engine fuelling was a bit off below 4K rpm, on the track it made the Escort fly and our customer was winning races outright all over the place with the RS being a full 2 seconds per lap faster at Mallory than the previous years championship winning Dolly Sprint could do and 4 1/2 seconds per lap faster than his previous engine could do , the car got protested a few times in the early stages by the Sprint brigade who were reeling with shock at their sudden defeat and the engine was stripped and closely inspected at the track but it was always passed as completely legal. That engine went 2 years of hard racing without missing a beat then came back for a freshen up where it again made 227 bhp after rebuild. Roland Hayes, HT Racing Ltd
Hi Roland, thanks for the reply. yes sometimes whats actually very wrong wil actually work. Maybe back then wording was a bit looser, but as an eligability scrut myself i can safely say your choke removal wouldnt comply with regulations today, IF spotted :)
Yeah, I always expected to have a problem with the choke removal thing but never did even though the carbs got looked at a few times, I think the scrutes were just happy that the Sprints had at last been knocked off their perch..
Something else you might want to look into, I brought a plywood board up to the carb trumpets on a Pinto while it was being tested on a dyno to see if an air filter top cover would be restrictive if the internal space between the trumpet and the inside of the cover got a bit close, anyway I found that as I brought the board up to the trumpets is made no difference to power until the gap was about 1" at which point the power started climbing a little until the gap was about 3/4" where the power started dropping back down fast. Just goes to show that bell mouths draw air from around the sides following the flare of the trumpet not from in front..
@@rotax636nut5 your plywood board is otherwise known as a pulse plate. commonly seen on 1960's rear engined sports racing cars such GT40's I once had one of dave walkers adjustable intake trumpets work its way out and finish right up against up right against the inner wing on a pinto powered mk1 escort, only the fact that the inner wing is curved stopped it actually blocking the ropen end of the ram pipe altogether. it the engine is question was making about 210bhp before the trumpet came out, i cant remember exactly how much power we lost, but it wasnt much only something like 5-7 , when you would of guessed more like 50
A new subscriber here. I do like your scientific methods of testing. I've read your E30 race car forum thread a while ago. A fascinating journey you've had.
I'm noting your results to help with my project. 2cyl. 4stk. 250cc, 13.000rpm starting to jet a 45dcoe on 32chokes to start with. Pulling well enough from low down so I figured my head and manifolds must be flowing well. Like your work, many thanks.
I saw an article in HOTROD magazine years ago, a pinto 2.3build. They made about the same figures. One thing they suggested, was hardening the cam followers. I'd like to see a turbo build!
Fortunately modern chill cast cams are pretty tough as are there follewers. So 1970’s 80’s cam wear issues are largely gone. Might do a turbo one day, the trouble is there are no off the shelf turbo exhaust manifolds
unfortunately unlike Pintos, i just dont have any X/flow engines and parts i can play with or do random testing just for fun. obviously if someone wants to donate an engine................
In my experience , if you are driving on the street - go for the 40's .. Yeah, the 45s or bigger might give you an extra 8hp , but if you are doing any stop start driving, the juice really isn't worth the squeeze with big carbs that are a pig at lower revs. Infact, even a 32/36 DGV or 38/38 progressive aren't that bad if you aren't doing a maximum effort build..
it all depends on your goal, i agree street use around 145bhp then 45's are a bit unnecessary 40's will give a lot more torque than a 32/36 and some more power, but if you looking for over 150bhp then really 45's are the way to go
Hi Graham love watching your videos. You answer alot of the questions we're all thinking about with hard facts. I'm building a engine to road rally regs and as such can only run 2 chokes be it a single twin choke or splits. From what I've seen from the mini crowd going from a single carb to splits is only worth a few bhp. I've also spoken to a few old boys from back in the day who have run both split 48's and twin 45's and again only a few bhp was gained. Would a single 48 on a lynx manifold run your 2.3 race engine?
airflow will play a part, but went you have a nice straight intakes with one throttle per cylinder you get a good amount of ram or pulse tuning which effectively gives a slight supercharging effect, you dont get that same effect when cylinders share intakes with other cylinders
Been there done it, spent hours on dave walkers roller road doing that, never found a gain from spark plugs, valve clearance maybe one BHP, but on reflection that could of just been the engine oil getting hotter!
And I think that If you account for the lack of space under an escort bonnet, the idfs loose even more compared to the dcoes, which works straight in line with the front grill.
i am told by those in the know that, DCOEs will always out perform IDFs due to difference in manifold shape, certainly that seems to be the case on this engine
Any advice on getting a pinto to sound a bit baseyer like that of a v6 or v8 got a k&n on the carb any other suggestions, sorry new to the car scene and bought a MK3 GXL CORTINA
Another great video. Thank you very much Graham. What’s the CR in this engine ? And which cam from Kent may be directly comparable to this Burton profile ? Best regards ( hawk1903 from TS )
not sure there is a direct comparison, when i rebuilt the engine i swapped the burton cam for a Newman P 4.5 which i guess is somewhere in between an FR32 and FR33
Hi Graham. A bit off topic but would you say 48DCO SP are over kill on a 2.1 pinto with a forest gravel spec cam? I've got conflicting views from 2 rolling roads. Cheers love the video.
Hey mate, I'm building a yb NA in Australia and wanted your opinion on Tony law vs simpson manifold. Just a street car running jenvy injection hoping for 260hp.
@@PenguinMotors thanks for the feedback mate, I won't be building it myself but I have a builder in Australia that can see that power figure on an engine dyno. Love you vids, keep up the good work👍
its rare that long is not the correct choice, i did actually shorten some on a pinto recently, which moved power down the rev range a bit and gave a fatter spread, but that was a 2.3 making 230bhp, so not your typical pinto
@@PenguinMotors great! Dyno vs road use has its variables I guess. Plenty time on dyno produced good results early 90's and we saw good improvement. Thanks again for your valuable input
@@roygouws7945 one thing the rams did do was change fuel standoff and jetting requirements. so IF your were running a bit lean for full power rams would of made power go up
@Penguin the rams were very short indeed at about 20 to 25mm height. But coupled with induction pipes to the gp1 air box funnels it made for a great road car on open road and top end races. Cheers
I should have watched this before messaging you earlier Graham, didn’t realise you’d already made this comparison 👍🏻
Good video! My feeling is that IDF's simply cannot be better that the DCOE's because the IDF's are on vertical assembly, causing in turn a curved intake pipeline and somehow causing a worsening to the air flow due to this curve. The DCOE's are on horizontal assembly so the pipelines are straight till the curve on the valveguide and this really improves the air flow inside those pipelines.
PS: Amazing to see how much worse the Webers are with no trumpets.
At HT Racing about 25 years ago we had a new customer come to us asking for a hot Pinto for his Mk 1 RS 2000 to conform to a Historic Touring Car race series regs, to enable him to beat (in his words) 'those damn Dolomite Sprints, these regs limited the spec to standard bore and stroke and the standard original Group 1 induction system which were Weber 40 IDF's and the rules specifically said that it was 'not allowed to bore out the standard 30mm chokes' . Well our top spec 2 litre engine at the time would be good for about 225 bhp on 50 Webers with 44mm chokes and I didn't hold out much hope of getting anywhere near those numbers with the 40 IDF carbs on 30 mm chokes but I had a think about the exact wording of the rules and I had the idea of removing the chokes entirely from the carbs which was not a case of 'boring out the choke' but in my view more of an 'adjustment' and trying the completely standard IDF carbs sans chokes, which left a slightly staggered 44mm diameter hole in the carb body which although not a very smooth because of a step in the body where the choke would normally rest was a lot bigger hole than when a 30mm choke was in that hole! anyway to cut a long story short I managed to find a combination of emulsion tubes and an odd jet size pairing of mains and airs that gave a reasonably tidy power curve in spite of not having a venturi to create suction for the aux vent and the engine actually made a full 227 bhp!, I will admit that the overall engine build was a bit more special than normal as I thought we needed to get every bit out of this engine from all the other variables in case the carbs could not be made to work, this meant using a slightly higher than normal compression ratio of 13 1/2 to 1 (97 oct super unleaded fuel) decent ignition, very carefully ported head and inlet manifold, original Ford Group1 inlet valves and exhaust valves 44mm & 38mm which are homologated Group 1 size and had to be original Ford items, Ford cam followers and our own HT1 camshaft which originated as a Holbay 4011F but with a different lobe centre angle, I developed this cam with the cooperation of John Reed the boss of Holbay at the time and because of the money we spent on testing cams he granted us the rights to the cam and put the designation of HT1 on it, we subsequently got them made by Kent Cams whose products were vastly superior at the time to both Piper Cams and Numan Cams. Anyway although the engine fuelling was a bit off below 4K rpm, on the track it made the Escort fly and our customer was winning races outright all over the place with the RS being a full 2 seconds per lap faster at Mallory than the previous years championship winning Dolly Sprint could do and 4 1/2 seconds per lap faster than his previous engine could do , the car got protested a few times in the early stages by the Sprint brigade who were reeling with shock at their sudden defeat and the engine was stripped and closely inspected at the track but it was always passed as completely legal. That engine went 2 years of hard racing without missing a beat then came back for a freshen up where it again made 227 bhp after rebuild. Roland Hayes, HT Racing Ltd
Hi Roland, thanks for the reply. yes sometimes whats actually very wrong wil actually work. Maybe back then wording was a bit looser, but as an eligability scrut myself i can safely say your choke removal wouldnt comply with regulations today, IF spotted :)
Yeah, I always expected to have a problem with the choke removal thing but never did even though the carbs got looked at a few times, I think the scrutes were just happy that the Sprints had at last been knocked off their perch..
Something else you might want to look into, I brought a plywood board up to the carb trumpets on a Pinto while it was being tested on a dyno to see if an air filter top cover would be restrictive if the internal space between the trumpet and the inside of the cover got a bit close, anyway I found that as I brought the board up to the trumpets is made no difference to power until the gap was about 1" at which point the power started climbing a little until the gap was about 3/4" where the power started dropping back down fast. Just goes to show that bell mouths draw air from around the sides following the flare of the trumpet not from in front..
@@rotax636nut5 your plywood board is otherwise known as a pulse plate. commonly seen on 1960's rear engined sports racing cars such GT40's I once had one of dave walkers adjustable intake trumpets work its way out and finish right up against up right against the inner wing on a pinto powered mk1 escort, only the fact that the inner wing is curved stopped it actually blocking the ropen end of the ram pipe altogether. it the engine is question was making about 210bhp before the trumpet came out, i cant remember exactly how much power we lost, but it wasnt much only something like 5-7 , when you would of guessed more like 50
A new subscriber here. I do like your scientific methods of testing.
I've read your E30 race car forum thread a while ago. A fascinating journey you've had.
Great stuff thank you
Keep up the great work 👍
I'm noting your results to help with my project.
2cyl. 4stk. 250cc, 13.000rpm starting to jet a 45dcoe on 32chokes to start with. Pulling well enough from low down so I figured my head and manifolds must be flowing well.
Like your work, many thanks.
Great vídeo!!!, i have a clio with 44 IDF, and since I saw this video I Want put a couple of 45 Dcoe!!!
Cool, IDFs on a clio, thats different :)
If you could explain how to set up jetting, specifically I need Idle advice on dcoe's. That would be really helpful.
Many Thanks.
I saw an article in HOTROD magazine years ago, a pinto 2.3build. They made about the same figures. One thing they suggested, was hardening the cam followers. I'd like to see a turbo build!
Fortunately modern chill cast cams are pretty tough as are there follewers. So 1970’s 80’s cam wear issues are largely gone. Might do a turbo one day, the trouble is there are no off the shelf turbo exhaust manifolds
Come on boys, let’s make some noise !
more noise coming
as you show, bugger all in it for a street engine, but in the end, it is the cyl head that makes HP
Be great to see some xflow tuning vids.
Especially with all the imported 1600 sport mk2s coming over from Africa 👍
unfortunately unlike Pintos, i just dont have any X/flow engines and parts i can play with or do random testing just for fun. obviously if someone wants to donate an engine................
In my experience , if you are driving on the street - go for the 40's .. Yeah, the 45s or bigger might give you an extra 8hp , but if you are doing any stop start driving, the juice really isn't worth the squeeze with big carbs that are a pig at lower revs. Infact, even a 32/36 DGV or 38/38 progressive aren't that bad if you aren't doing a maximum effort build..
it all depends on your goal, i agree street use around 145bhp then 45's are a bit unnecessary 40's will give a lot more torque than a 32/36 and some more power, but if you looking for over 150bhp then really 45's are the way to go
Hi Graham love watching your videos. You answer alot of the questions we're all thinking about with hard facts.
I'm building a engine to road rally regs and as such can only run 2 chokes be it a single twin choke or splits. From what I've seen from the mini crowd going from a single carb to splits is only worth a few bhp. I've also spoken to a few old boys from back in the day who have run both split 48's and twin 45's and again only a few bhp was gained. Would a single 48 on a lynx manifold run your 2.3 race engine?
your certainly could run it on a single 48 and lynx manifold, but you would probably loose about 30bhp
@@PenguinMotors is that down to lack of airflow through the carb or the manifold. Thanks in advance
airflow will play a part, but went you have a nice straight intakes with one throttle per cylinder you get a good amount of ram or pulse tuning which effectively gives a slight supercharging effect, you dont get that same effect when cylinders share intakes with other cylinders
Would like to see the difference in spark plugs and also various valve clearances
Been there done it, spent hours on dave walkers roller road doing that, never found a gain from spark plugs, valve clearance maybe one BHP, but on reflection that could of just been the engine oil getting hotter!
And I think that If you account for the lack of space under an escort bonnet, the idfs loose even more compared to the dcoes, which works straight in line with the front grill.
i am told by those in the know that, DCOEs will always out perform IDFs due to difference in manifold shape, certainly that seems to be the case on this engine
Any advice on getting a pinto to sound a bit baseyer like that of a v6 or v8 got a k&n on the carb any other suggestions, sorry new to the car scene and bought a MK3 GXL CORTINA
Obviously a large big free flow exhaust will help, but your never going to make an in-line 4 sound like a v6 let alone a v8
It wound be good to see how dual 32/36 & 38/38 would perform in comparison as an alternative
No manifold exists to do that though
Another great video. Thank you very much Graham. What’s the CR in this engine ? And which cam from Kent may be directly comparable to this Burton profile ? Best regards ( hawk1903 from TS )
not sure there is a direct comparison, when i rebuilt the engine i swapped the burton cam for a Newman P 4.5 which i guess is somewhere in between an FR32 and FR33
@@PenguinMotors thank you very much Graham. Is the CR in the region of 10,5:1 and the head has standard valves ?
CR was closer to 10:1 it has big valves
@@PenguinMotors many thanks Graham.
Hi Graham. A bit off topic but would you say 48DCO SP are over kill on a 2.1 pinto with a forest gravel spec cam? I've got conflicting views from 2 rolling roads. Cheers love the video.
Probably, Ok its was a 2.3 pinto but ive seen 219bhp 191 lbft on 45's
@@PenguinMotors in your opinion better on 45s then?
@@benjaminbenson8714 i would of thought so
@@PenguinMotors Thanks Graham. Fancy buying a pair of 48's? Haha.
@@benjaminbenson8714 if you already have 48's just try fitting smallish chokes
Can you please try the Holley Two barrel 500CFM
i would if i had one, but its not a carb i have ever seen in the uk
Habéis metido en banco de potencia motores Fiat twin cam de Guy Croft?
no i have not.
Hey mate, I'm building a yb NA in Australia and wanted your opinion on Tony law vs simpson manifold. Just a street car running jenvy injection hoping for 260hp.
you be doing well to get 260bhp very few make anything like that. ive not used either manifold so its difficult to comment
@@PenguinMotors thanks for the feedback mate, I won't be building it myself but I have a builder in Australia that can see that power figure on an engine dyno.
Love you vids, keep up the good work👍
Graham might I know the numbers from hp without rampipes on the 45s? 3-4 hp?
topend power was only down 2bhp, lost more lower down though heres video
th-cam.com/video/pZF8_s7LO7c/w-d-xo.html
@@PenguinMotors haha you even gave the advise to buy the longest ones avaible
its rare that long is not the correct choice, i did actually shorten some on a pinto recently, which moved power down the rev range a bit and gave a fatter spread, but that was a 2.3 making 230bhp, so not your typical pinto
@@PenguinMotors I got a 2.3 making 198hp without ram pipes those could help get over 200ph 🙂
The short rams are too tall for the grp1 air box tho? Short rams enclosed in the box have produced great results from personal experience
i have run very short and 35mm ram pipes in they air box, it had no effect on power
@@PenguinMotors great! Dyno vs road use has its variables I guess. Plenty time on dyno produced good results early 90's and we saw good improvement. Thanks again for your valuable input
@@roygouws7945 one thing the rams did do was change fuel standoff and jetting requirements. so IF your were running a bit lean for full power rams would of made power go up
@Penguin the rams were very short indeed at about 20 to 25mm height. But coupled with induction pipes to the gp1 air box funnels it made for a great road car on open road and top end races. Cheers