I agree! I would check out the Hard Fork podcast episode with Demis too, I was surprised at the level of discussion for the non-technical hosts, they asked great questions that teased a lot of exciting stuff from Demis.
This guy is just about the best interviewer of tech folks. Excellent questions. Some thought has been applied rather than sticking to what everyone else is asking.
@@hugopennmir Lex is kind of a naive child, I don't enjoy his interviewing style its incredibly biased and he hardly pushes back at all letting gremlins like Tucker Carlson run roughshod over him with their bevy of lies. He's too idealistic and his questions and subsequent conversaion are too unfocused on the tech.
I listened to this at .95 speed. The change might seem insignificant, but it was actually incredibly helpful in slowing down the high density stream of information just enough to be able to catch every word. I highly reccomend anyone else struggling to keep up with the question-answer pace to do the same.
You ask the best questions, Dwarkesh! Speaking from the perspective of someone who has worked in the field of AI for several years, I'm impressed by how well read you are on technical concepts.
This is a great conversation! It would've been even better if Dwarkesh's speech were clearer. I think Dwarkesh optimizes for speed which at times makes it inaudible. In any case, I'm looking forward to more guests like Demis.
I set playback speed to 1.25 at the start of the vid (I often do for these kinds of podcast-type interviews), god damn I was not prepared for how fast Dwarkesh talks 😆
This podcast is so incredibly underrated. Fantastic conversation with one of the most important people in the field. Your research and knowledge really shines here and serves as the foundation for some really insightful deepdives. Thank you so much for this!
Demis: These system are going to be enormously powerful and transformative to society! also Demis Demis: Because these systems are potentially dangerous if falling into the wrong hands only selected people and institutions should be able to wield them.
Mumbo jumbo to deliberately obfuscate. The interviewer just rambles on instead of keeping the question short. Also got a fake accent that falls flat at times.
I listened to it at 1.5x because that's what I'm used to, but I did have to stop and check that it hadn't somehow ended up at 2x. Definitely seemed faster than usual.
Hey love your Interview sometimes hard to understand your questions, your a fast speaker. But your very good at what you do, thank you for the content.
Great episode, always amazing people you are able to interview! Other than the content itself, I feel like you're 99% there in terms of production quality. The audio is sounding better than it has in the past which is a welcome change, but I can't help but notice the video having some auto exposure artifacts. It is somewhat distracting to see the exposure change when someone is moving in a certain way. Also the exposure in general seems a little overexposed. Just trying to give some technical feedback! I always look forward to your interviews! I can't wait to see what these conversations will be about in 2 or 3 years when we understand more.
Dwarkesh is purely an AI simulation that Demis was testing. Notice how Demis had him running at wildly different playback speeds throughout the interview.
i love the contrast between demis going all like "yeah we'll do extensive in house and third party testing to make sure we discover any vulnerabilities or unexpected behavior before we give it off to the public and some bad actor builds a bioweapon" and then nobody stopped Jack Krawczyk from making gemini generate black george washington
Not Demis Hassabis fault. DeepMind builds the model but Google delivers the training dataset. If the dataset is filtered for leftist bias crap then no matter how good your model is built.. it will produce leftist bias crap as output. Garbage in, garbage out.. simple as that
Have you considered running the mic through a sound board and equipping you and your guests with monitor headphones? It might be a good way to prevent guests from wandering away from the mics if they can hear themselves.
Awesome feedback. A piece of advice for the interviewer. Please don't rush when you pose a question. Slow down and speak clearly. IN several cases the posed questions were disregarded due to the speed.
It's weird that a company can have a division with the best minds and then another of quasi technical ethics ladies and functionaries are allowed to make the final product into farce.
Brilliant humble man who is fronting maybe the most important endeavour of humankind right now. Deep respect for Dr. Demis Hassabis. Great interviewer.
I love this more technical style interviews from someone who knows the domain. This is missing from the internet. I will love you to do a similar with Sam Altman 🔥
By the incredible Google video where Gemini was watching the presenter and cracking jokes while he drew a rubber ducky and put a map on the table. Amazing stuff, shame it was faked.
In fairness, I think 1.5 Pro can be considered better in terms of dealing with long context. I got access today and it is pretty impressive so far. Like with a half hour video tour of a museum, I asked which exhibit had an animal digging near water and who gifted it to the museum. And it got it even with the length and the fact the name placard, animals, and gift placard weren’t all on screen at the same time.
Google has been shooting themselves in the foot a lot. Instead of doing that stupid fake marketing video, they should have waited for 1.5, when they could actually show something very impressive. 1.0 Ultra is basically just GPT-4 with pluses and minuses (overall more minuses). 1.5 is something different altogether. We haven’t seen a model until this one that can actually reason well over a very large context. Hopefully they’ll be able to roll it out to more people without a huge delay. Am hoping it is a good sign I got past the waitlist, since I’m not a famous influencer or anything like that.
Many models in the brain are inherited (innate) - such as being able to catch a ball, under the effect of gravity and air resistance. Therefore, human brain models are developed, then improved across generational boundaries. The amount of data used to train our internal models is therefore captured across 10's of thousand of years. With AI, we are massively accelerating that process.
Once the models are grounded, multimodal, with decent conceptual generalization, eliminating capabilities by selectively suppressing training data can't be guaranteed to work. The two criteria strike me as directly adversarial: to the degree that selective suppression of training data works, is also the degree to which the model isn't very powerful at routing around damage (selective data lobotomy).
Demis called LLMs unreasonably effective. Shouldn't we figure out the reason why it's as effective as it is. And furthermore, how does higher quality or extra data improve its IQ in certain domains? If something this unprecedented is "unreasonably effective", we should figure out the method to the madness instead of blindly creating more madness.
Stanley Milgram's "Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View" needs to be discussed at the center of every discussion about why both AGI and existing humans are so unwise. We know the answers...we're just too cowardly to face them and choose wisely.
"Sure, sure, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah" - it translates something like this "please, shut up. I'm not listening to you anymore. The things you are talking about now are not interesting to me. I want to talk myself now instead of you"
56:40 Speaking of "Unintended Consequences," that's a book Demis should read. The John Ross one with "the rape of liberty" art on the cover (there are two books called "Unintended Consequences" by two different guys named John Ross).
FANTASTIC interview but have you ever noticed that you, Dwarkesh, speak like you are on 1.5x speed? 😭😭😭 Kind of obsessed and I don’t know how you talk like that.
You know what would be funny? Devoting all the resources towards AGI / ASI to help us solve massive challenges like climate change, but then the AGI calculates & calculates & calculates then tells us to stop burning fossil fuels and eat less beef!!! 😂😂😂
That will probably happen just due to the training data available, wether it's the answer or not. Unfortunately the current methodology of solving this is just apply more tax. Unfortunately that's not a good process for solving it.
Has Hassabis considered these models may inadvertently develop an "identity"? We've seen cases like early oopsies Bing Chat that talks like it has personhood, but I expect that was closer to chatbot than human. What if it went much further and deeper?
Yeah ok, but a question ¿general intelligence is the top intelligence that can be achieved by a general intelligent machine? It's very naïve to think that a AGI robot didn't scale at exponential level immediately after reach it's first stage. Cracking up any conceivable and possible way of human think concept. What'd occurs in AGI1.2 or AGI2.1? etc. OF course this is the very end of human cerebral capabilities ERA.
Just curious , in a differential piece game like chess is there any role for lower order /complexity auxillary modelling purely on a board demographic , ie positional state .
Here's the problem with the whole "open source" vs "closed source" debate: There is no objective measure for what is a "bad" act or who is a "bad" actor. In addition, humans are very likely to disagree on this account. I don't think you can make a plausible rational argument that the people developing this technology are somehow "good" actors that can be trusted with its power more than if it were democratized. In the end, if it is too powerful a tech to allow democratization, it is also too powerful to allow centralization. I'd rather live in a world where ALL of us at least have a chance by having access, than for this power to be centralized, controlled, and walled off by a select few, regardless of what they think of themselves.
It's very likely that tech companies in the distribution of evilness fall far from the worst possible actors (terrorists, Putin, North Korea, anarchists), therefore it's a win for tech companies to restrict them. You have chat and API access to advanced models. What more do you want?
I would much rather live in a world where extremely powerful general-purpose AI systems don't exist. I expect that once we live in a world where they do, no matter who "has" them, they will soon have us, and we will no longer live in any world.
@@NicholasDunbar First of all, I don't believe in the weaponization of any tech. I don't buy the necessity of engaging in game theoretic pressures, like arms races. You simply don't have to build nuclear weapons. Building them is an immoral act. That being said, if weapons are built, I think it is better that they are democratized, rather than controlled by a central power. If we keep advancing tech, and prevent it from being democratized, we WILL end up in some kind of dystopia (like a police/surveillance state). In the end if the tech is too powerful to be democratized, it is also too powerful to be centralized.
Hope you guys enjoy this interview with Demis. If you do, please share it! Helps a lot :). Thanks for watching 🙏
So refreshing to have a true technical interviewer. You ask the REAL questions. Glad I found your channel.
All your interviews are a breeze. Very informative and easy to follow through all topics touched. Thank you.
Subscribed. Spot on.
@DwarkeshPatel
Almost wish it was _longer, but nice job anyway!
Great interview
It's really awesome to finally have a podcast host who is capable of asking the right questions and of of having access to the key people.
I agree! I would check out the Hard Fork podcast episode with Demis too, I was surprised at the level of discussion for the non-technical hosts, they asked great questions that teased a lot of exciting stuff from Demis.
I agree. This is one of the better podcasts between a host and an AI expert
So Demis, do you believe in aliens 😂
Agreed 100%. Often feels like a better Lex (and I say this as a long-time fan of Lex)
Better than most.
This guy is just about the best interviewer of tech folks. Excellent questions. Some thought has been applied rather than sticking to what everyone else is asking.
I agree. I find the other podcasts tend to ask computer generated sounding questions.
mmm Lex ?
@@MrMikkynDwarkesh is computer science graduate so infinitely more technically competent than an average journalist.
@@hugopennmir Lex is kind of a naive child, I don't enjoy his interviewing style its incredibly biased and he hardly pushes back at all letting gremlins like Tucker Carlson run roughshod over him with their bevy of lies. He's too idealistic and his questions and subsequent conversaion are too unfocused on the tech.
Sure, sure, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah
Its so great you do these interviews and ask intelligent questions that require non trivial answers
yh. Most interviewers ask the same dumb generic questions. But not dwarkesh
genuinely the best interviewer when it comes to tech/AI, excited to watch this, thank you!
I listened to this at .95 speed. The change might seem insignificant, but it was actually incredibly helpful in slowing down the high density stream of information just enough to be able to catch every word.
I highly reccomend anyone else struggling to keep up with the question-answer pace to do the same.
That applies to the interviewer, Demis speaks just at the right speed.
.95 speed is probably closer to what it was recorded at. The normal version clearly has been sped up.
It's helpful turning the closed captions (subtitles) on too :)
The intervewer interventions sound to be sped up honestly
@@erang4437 Yeah. Kinda makes this whole thing garbage lol.
You ask the best questions, Dwarkesh! Speaking from the perspective of someone who has worked in the field of AI for several years, I'm impressed by how well read you are on technical concepts.
Huge. Looking forward to watching this after classes. Thanks.
This is a great conversation! It would've been even better if Dwarkesh's speech were clearer. I think Dwarkesh optimizes for speed which at times makes it inaudible. In any case, I'm looking forward to more guests like Demis.
Totally agree. I even suspected that his interventions were sped up
The worst part is that he does it deliberately. He should just talk normally and clearly, but he did ask great questions.
Go down to 0.75x and you wouldn't know anything is off.
20 minutes in "Grounding (in reality)", I had to pause: these are astute questions from Dwakesh and great replies from Demis.
Finally a sharp interviewer who knows what he is talking about. Great job!
I love Dwarkesh’s intelligent and pointed questions, it’s refreshing.
I had no idea what they were talking about. But the interviewer clearly is the fastest speaking human being on the planet.
clearly a next level SOTA technical interviewing specialised LLM with a photorealistic animated avatar generated on the fly.
If you speed up the interviewer, it is completely unintelligible.
Inference engine go brrrrrrr
So excited for this. You're really an amazing interviewer. Ty ❤
Amazing background research by Dwarkesh, citing old research papers from Demis is great.
Dwarkesh meets Demis ! Fantastic interview ! Every sentence is gold…❤
Dwarkesh asks all the questions I wish Lex had.
Great episode Dwarkesh and some insightful questions throughout. Well done. Shared to Maven 🙏👍
Yo Papa Patel interviewing the heavy hitters. Much appreciated
Excellent podcast. You ask such good questions, and it is clear that you put a lot of work and deep thought into preparing for these interviews.
Thanks for the Interview. Very much appreciate it!
Given the pace of change I'd love if you'd include the date of recording in the description.
I set playback speed to 1.25 at the start of the vid (I often do for these kinds of podcast-type interviews), god damn I was not prepared for how fast Dwarkesh talks 😆
This podcast is so incredibly underrated. Fantastic conversation with one of the most important people in the field. Your research and knowledge really shines here and serves as the foundation for some really insightful deepdives. Thank you so much for this!
Thanks!
This is one of the best interviews yet, i cant believe i missd this one
Only one hour… 😢
It should've been 3 hours mann
better than zero!
But it's a quality 1hr
@@ansumansamal8473 so ja bhai. Rat ho gya
@@the_badass_bond___tu chup
Your podcast has become my new favourite, overtaking the 80k podcast. Really love the quality of your questions :)
Demis: These system are going to be enormously powerful and transformative to society!
also Demis
Demis: Because these systems are potentially dangerous if falling into the wrong hands only selected people and institutions should be able to wield them.
Also Demis: "We don't know how to control these systems once they become smarter than us, but just trust us, we'll figure it out later!"
Great interview! Is this accelerated beyond 1.0x? Such as 1.1x or 1.2x playback as the default?
my money is on amphetamines
@@bobby288mlol that's what I secretly thought haha 😅😂
Mumbo jumbo to deliberately obfuscate. The interviewer just rambles on instead of keeping the question short. Also got a fake accent that falls flat at times.
Your channel is gold! I love your questions, and crazy how you can get all these big guys on here
You are my favorite interviewer. Thank you for the interesting content!
Incredibly useful, Chelsea Finn is clearly one of the most inspiring robotics researcher nowadays
Hassabis is always insightful.
the youtube url ends with AI
Awesome
It's the most sophisticated asking I have see on the topic last 7 month.
This podcast is the only one I listen to at 1x speed O.O great job with the quick pacing, Dwarkesh!
After rewinding a bunch of times, I eventually just set it to 0.5x speed for me. Haha.
I listened to it at 1.5x because that's what I'm used to, but I did have to stop and check that it hadn't somehow ended up at 2x. Definitely seemed faster than usual.
I'm listening at 0.75x. The pace is too intense for me.
Hey love your Interview sometimes hard to understand your questions, your a fast speaker. But your very good at what you do, thank you for the content.
Great episode, always amazing people you are able to interview!
Other than the content itself, I feel like you're 99% there in terms of production quality. The audio is sounding better than it has in the past which is a welcome change, but I can't help but notice the video having some auto exposure artifacts. It is somewhat distracting to see the exposure change when someone is moving in a certain way. Also the exposure in general seems a little overexposed. Just trying to give some technical feedback!
I always look forward to your interviews! I can't wait to see what these conversations will be about in 2 or 3 years when we understand more.
Dwarkesh is purely an AI simulation that Demis was testing. Notice how Demis had him running at wildly different playback speeds throughout the interview.
i love the contrast between demis going all like "yeah we'll do extensive in house and third party testing to make sure we discover any vulnerabilities or unexpected behavior before we give it off to the public and some bad actor builds a bioweapon" and then nobody stopped Jack Krawczyk from making gemini generate black george washington
It was trained on Google search results which are influenced by their leftist corporate culture. What did you expect?
Not Demis Hassabis fault. DeepMind builds the model but Google delivers the training dataset. If the dataset is filtered for leftist bias crap then no matter how good your model is built.. it will produce leftist bias crap as output. Garbage in, garbage out.. simple as that
I love interviews like this that get a bit more technical.
love demis. he's very open.
Great stuff Dwarkesh ❤
This is becoming one of my favorite podcasts.
my optimism is through the roof ❤
What a fantastic interview and interviewer! Kudos
Have you considered running the mic through a sound board and equipping you and your guests with monitor headphones? It might be a good way to prevent guests from wandering away from the mics if they can hear themselves.
I say sound board because my experience with digital monitors has been closer to a speech jammer.
Awesome feedback. A piece of advice for the interviewer. Please don't rush when you pose a question. Slow down and speak clearly. IN several cases the posed questions were disregarded due to the speed.
You did a really good job and I learned a lot without losing interest. Thank you.
Great interview👍
10 minutes in and this is excellent!
Does anyone know what the make and model of those chairs are? They look slick.
You ask really good questions! Very good work 👌
Sounds like I’m watching a regular podcast at 1.5 speed
It's weird that a company can have a division with the best minds and then another of quasi technical ethics ladies and functionaries are allowed to make the final product into farce.
Brilliant humble man who is fronting maybe the most important endeavour of humankind right now. Deep respect for Dr. Demis Hassabis. Great interviewer.
I love this more technical style interviews from someone who knows the domain. This is missing from the internet. I will love you to do a similar with Sam Altman 🔥
by what metric are you calling Gemini best model? by google advertisement statements?
By the incredible Google video where Gemini was watching the presenter and cracking jokes while he drew a rubber ducky and put a map on the table. Amazing stuff, shame it was faked.
In fairness, I think 1.5 Pro can be considered better in terms of dealing with long context. I got access today and it is pretty impressive so far. Like with a half hour video tour of a museum, I asked which exhibit had an animal digging near water and who gifted it to the museum. And it got it even with the length and the fact the name placard, animals, and gift placard weren’t all on screen at the same time.
Google has been shooting themselves in the foot a lot. Instead of doing that stupid fake marketing video, they should have waited for 1.5, when they could actually show something very impressive.
1.0 Ultra is basically just GPT-4 with pluses and minuses (overall more minuses). 1.5 is something different altogether. We haven’t seen a model until this one that can actually reason well over a very large context. Hopefully they’ll be able to roll it out to more people without a huge delay. Am hoping it is a good sign I got past the waitlist, since I’m not a famous influencer or anything like that.
@@ShawnFumoThere are still many answers that will be manipulated or not allowed. I guess it's up to people to decide if they are fine with that.
Needs more views
謝謝！
Something tells me Demis is _really, really_ smart. Just a hunch.
Many models in the brain are inherited (innate) - such as being able to catch a ball, under the effect of gravity and air resistance. Therefore, human brain models are developed, then improved across generational boundaries. The amount of data used to train our internal models is therefore captured across 10's of thousand of years. With AI, we are massively accelerating that process.
Once the models are grounded, multimodal, with decent conceptual generalization, eliminating capabilities by selectively suppressing training data can't be guaranteed to work.
The two criteria strike me as directly adversarial: to the degree that selective suppression of training data works, is also the degree to which the model isn't very powerful at routing around damage (selective data lobotomy).
What makes it best model in the world exactly?
Truly inspiring. Fantastic talk.
great questions for sure. Very good interview.
Demis called LLMs unreasonably effective. Shouldn't we figure out the reason why it's as effective as it is. And furthermore, how does higher quality or extra data improve its IQ in certain domains? If something this unprecedented is "unreasonably effective", we should figure out the method to the madness instead of blindly creating more madness.
Stanley Milgram's "Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View" needs to be discussed at the center of every discussion about why both AGI and existing humans are so unwise. We know the answers...we're just too cowardly to face them and choose wisely.
"Sure, sure, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah" - it translates something like this "please, shut up. I'm not listening to you anymore. The things you are talking about now are not interesting to me. I want to talk myself now instead of you"
We all now know that "weights" are where the big security danger lies.
56:40 Speaking of "Unintended Consequences," that's a book Demis should read. The John Ross one with "the rape of liberty" art on the cover (there are two books called "Unintended Consequences" by two different guys named John Ross).
Watching this after the release of claude 3... 45:53 "Now that you have the frontier model" doesn't sound right
Watch at 0.75 speed to survive
The interviewer needs to talk way slower. Demis’ talking speed is just fine.
Wow. They thought of DeepMind as a 20-year project in 2010, and they are on track for what a lot of experts say is AGI around 2030. Damn.
Can we get the podcast in video form on Spotify please 🙏
Let's go!
Get Ilya Sutskever on the podcast!
Really cool videos, thanks for doing this!
FANTASTIC interview but have you ever noticed that you, Dwarkesh, speak like you are on 1.5x speed? 😭😭😭 Kind of obsessed and I don’t know how you talk like that.
it's sped up
@@malimal4972 I don’t believe that… why would he speed up his part and not Demis’s? Demis talks at his normal speed?
read other comments
@@malimal4972 sounds like a lotta work… 🤔
Great work! By the way, it would be great if you would always post the interview date.
Are you using elastic weight consolidation and curricular training?
Perfect listening for a walk in the forest. ✌️
AGI in the next 5 minutes!
Very interesting interview but the acceleration effect was annoying.
Cool, 1.5x speed without the 1.5x playback speed
Lots of brain power
I think the best way to study the activation space is by perturbation analysis which can be automated.
When published, it "was" the best model.
Not today.
Very good interview, well done 🎉
You know what would be funny? Devoting all the resources towards AGI / ASI to help us solve massive challenges like climate change, but then the AGI calculates & calculates & calculates then tells us to stop burning fossil fuels and eat less beef!!! 😂😂😂
That will probably happen just due to the training data available, wether it's the answer or not. Unfortunately the current methodology of solving this is just apply more tax. Unfortunately that's not a good process for solving it.
Has Hassabis considered these models may inadvertently develop an "identity"? We've seen cases like early oopsies Bing Chat that talks like it has personhood, but I expect that was closer to chatbot than human. What if it went much further and deeper?
It will be a real challenge for an IAG to "feel" what I felt witnessing the eclipse today. Because It can't be explained with words.
Yeah ok, but a question ¿general intelligence is the top intelligence that can be achieved by a general intelligent machine? It's very naïve to think that a AGI robot didn't scale at exponential level immediately after reach it's first stage. Cracking up any conceivable and possible way of human think concept. What'd occurs in AGI1.2 or AGI2.1? etc. OF course this is the very end of human cerebral capabilities ERA.
Just curious , in a differential piece game like chess is there any role for lower order /complexity auxillary modelling purely on a board demographic , ie positional state .
Here's the problem with the whole "open source" vs "closed source" debate: There is no objective measure for what is a "bad" act or who is a "bad" actor. In addition, humans are very likely to disagree on this account. I don't think you can make a plausible rational argument that the people developing this technology are somehow "good" actors that can be trusted with its power more than if it were democratized. In the end, if it is too powerful a tech to allow democratization, it is also too powerful to allow centralization. I'd rather live in a world where ALL of us at least have a chance by having access, than for this power to be centralized, controlled, and walled off by a select few, regardless of what they think of themselves.
It's very likely that tech companies in the distribution of evilness fall far from the worst possible actors (terrorists, Putin, North Korea, anarchists), therefore it's a win for tech companies to restrict them.
You have chat and API access to advanced models. What more do you want?
I would much rather live in a world where extremely powerful general-purpose AI systems don't exist. I expect that once we live in a world where they do, no matter who "has" them, they will soon have us, and we will no longer live in any world.
Well stated .
I agree with your comments but as far as your preference. How do you feel about nuclear weapons? Would you apply the same logic? If not why?
@@NicholasDunbar First of all, I don't believe in the weaponization of any tech. I don't buy the necessity of engaging in game theoretic pressures, like arms races. You simply don't have to build nuclear weapons. Building them is an immoral act. That being said, if weapons are built, I think it is better that they are democratized, rather than controlled by a central power. If we keep advancing tech, and prevent it from being democratized, we WILL end up in some kind of dystopia (like a police/surveillance state). In the end if the tech is too powerful to be democratized, it is also too powerful to be centralized.
actually next week ❤
Great interview
Let's get this right!
is the video speeded up on 1.25x?
9:40 learn ML 101 to be able to converse with Engineering Managers
12:00 13:30