Thanks! I have produced a lot of videos on Emacs which showcase its potential. If you want to watch an hour-long presentation about "switching to Emacs", then here I have it: th-cam.com/video/FLjbKuoBlXs/w-d-xo.html
Came here from Sacha Chua's blog and just wanted to say thanks for sharing your thoughts. Though I am an old *NIX and Emacs user, this indeed left me with some thoughts to ponder. And welcome to Emacs! PS. That is a splendid beard you've got there!
Thank you! I am happy to be part of this community (Emacs and free software at-large). I am always learning new things, most of which have a tangible benefit in my daily life.
I guess there are more people who went through the same experiences. You may also be interested in my most recent live stream about the Emacs VS Unix topic: th-cam.com/video/FmOYj0SyKfg/w-d-xo.html
Hello, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic. Your blog / book are among the best resources I've found so far! I have currently a configuration quite similar to the one of your dotfiles, meaning without emacs, and with multiple programs more or less nicely integrated. I could be great if you could demonstrate your old workflow with BSPWM+{...} and your new one with emacs :) One more time, nice job here!
Good idea! I would like to do something along those lines at some future point. It would be unfair to my Emacs config right now. You see, I tweaked the BSPWM session over the course of an extended period of time. Whereas my Emacs experience is only ~1.5 month long. There still are many areas that need to be optimised. That granted, compare the relative complexity of my dotfiles to the simplicity of my dotemacs. The latter practically is a single file with some elisp code and extensive inline documentation. While the former is a combination of multiple different paradigms. Some highlights: * Vim has its own config language. * Tmux has another. * So does bspwm. * Same for sxhkd, xterm (Xresources) etc. * You need to learn how to use GNU stow, to conveniently deploy the dotfiles. Emacs seems like a daunting challenge because it imposes a different workflow to the standard CLI-centric approach (otherwise, I would argue, it is not used to its potential). But once you get over the first week or so, you start appreciating the things it does.
Yes, Emacs is kind of the antithesis to "Unix Philosophy". It's more like the last surviving representative of Lisp machines. But that is OK. I love Unix and its philosophy and I love Emacs, and I don't see any contradiction there. I think the different philosophies are complementing each other well, especially if you want to have a consistent user experience (which is not one of the Unix main goals btw).
Realy great videos, the best out there in this topic and very good explained. Everything you explained has a deep sense and is grounded on a plausible philosophy - which i like alot! So keep it up and coming - very informative, thank you for that!
I mean emacs can be viewed as just a lisp interpreter with a fancy set of gui libraries, so individual lisp programs can in fact be doing one thing, and one thing well, but with integration not possible in programs that live in different processes. EDIT: I commented too early, you went over this haha
Very helpful after two to three years with vim sensing the limits as a project tool for R (cran R) programming (the only language, I know as an economist). And a very intelligent talk from a beautiful mind. That mind is that of a philosopher and a researcher of thought and logic, lacking the troublesome research of data. If the object is truth, data and subject research are pillars along with thought and logic. Please allow comments on your website.
Thank you! As for allowing comments on my website, there are technical reasons why I am not doing it: it is yet another database I need to manage which requires either third-party tools (all of them non-free as far as I can tell) or to make the implementation of the site far more complex (like how the typical WordPress blog does it, which opens the sluice gate to a tsunami of spam). Overall, I think it is not worth the trouble.
@jotix _ I like the idea of EXWM but have not yet tested it. This will probably happen in the coming weeks or months. Currently I am in a BSPWM session (my switch to Xfce was short lived because I discovered how to enable the Hyper key). Configs here: gitlab.com/protesilaos/dotfiles That granted, my sole concern is that we may be creating a single point of failure. What happens if, for whatever reason, Emacs crashes while I am uploading a video here? Does the whole desktop session come down as well? I honestly do not know and would not like to pass any judgement before actually using it full time. Do you use EXWM? If so, what do you think about it?
Grate videos Protesilos! I want tu ask you about distros, so you running only Debian? Do you try run some other distro, like Fedora or one that was edored by FSF?
There is a tool for uploading youtube videos from the terminal. I think it might be called youtube-uploader or something like that. I don't know if you can set the tags and thumbnails and things like that though.
I never understood what philosophy meant and always wondered what the use of that. I still don't understand what it means but at-least now i know it helps some people to articulate emacs core ideas. That cool
I think that a good generalisation of philosophy is that it is an activity that seeks to clarify concepts. Its intent is to look at the big picture of the ideas involved, in an attempt to discern patterns and connections. Then try to make sense of those.
Evidently from the other replies to your comment, you're not the only one to be confused by the phrase "Unix philosophy". This is a particular English use of the word "philosophy" that is not the same as what it usually refers to, i.e. what philosophers do. The meaning of the word "philosophy" here is closer to the word "approach", "attitude" or "paradigm". The "Unix philosophy" is an approach to programming that creates programs to work well together in the Unix OS. For example, each program should do just one thing and do it well. Small and simple programs are especially designed to fit together with other Unix programs in more complex applications like Lego building blocks. Emacs has often been criticised for going against the Unix philosophy in many ways. Objections have been raised against *systemd* in the Linux kernel for similar reasons. This video doesn't defend Emacs against serious criticisms. There is a good Wikipedia page about the Unix philosophy that is much more informative and accurate.
@@protesilaos Sorry to comment on such an old post; it says here that it's a year old, but the TH-cam recommendation of this video said it's from 3 months ago. Regardless, I always find it interesting when people try to find a place for philosophy in the present world, now that its domain has largely been superseded by science and its insights and methods are part of every rational field of inquiry. Leading experts in every field already use the rational methods developed historically in the philosophical tradition, to clarify concepts, look at the big picture, and discern patterns and connections. What role do you think philosophers should have in clarifying concepts, big picture thinking and discening patterns and connections that isn't already being done by scientists, leading experts, and non-expert commentary such as good journalism?
@@trondknudsen6689 Good question! I will answer later today. Do you mind if I also publish the reply on my website? I will quote your question, but remove any identifying information. This is so that I can share it with others who may ask the same.
Some ppl use Emacs almost as an entirely OS. With a proper config and dedication you can achieve almost everything just inside Emacs, without needing other applications. Btw nice background! Also after finishing my WM setup the way I wanted, I tried something different and tried a DE for the sake of something new. Then now I setup a minimal Plasma install, and it is very lightweight without any KDE application, just using my old terminal apps.
I already do most of my computing inside Emacs (will soon add email, then try out TRAMP). And this with a fairly conservative ("simple") config. Plasma is a great choice, indeed. The main KDE apps are quite powerful, but I guess it depends on what your needs are. As for the background, here is the link: unsplash.com/photos/sfgH9dXcMRw
Thanks for your videos! For an emacsy experience, in terms of basic keybindings, outside of emacs, and without using EXWM (which is great nonetheless), I strongly suggest xkeysnail! You basically have EXWM's ``simulation keys'' without using EXWM.
Ok, I got it. Let's don't be fanatics, Unix way is a dogma, emacs ftw. Sounds similar, hm... P.S. fyi, Unix way is just agreement, concept and idea, but you only see fanatics, yet can't see bloated, sluggish outdated... dessisions.
Subtitle: "Why people who use Emacs aren't Unix traitors!". PS. I'd like to correct the subtitles. Unfortunately that TH-cam feature has been disabled.
I am ambivalent on this: (1) I like the idea and it is consistent with the "Emacs mindset", and (2) I need to consider this further, because I read that Emacs runs on a single thread and, basically, if one thing freezes, the entire environment freezes as well. Concerning point 2, I have not researched the matter. This is just the first impression I got. Perhaps you have first hand experience and can point me to some good sources?
@@protesilaos I hope I will have some insight, as it may be a good fit for a long-standing, larger plan (involving capturing keystrokes for later redirection to applications) that could build upon its ability to use different input methods, but considering how much it's taken me to achieve my current level of emacs permeability, I doubt I will get there soon. I'd like to mention in passing that your discourse and fresh outlook have been inspiring, both in videos and prose.
@@protesilaos I am an EXWM convert now! The tray handling is buggy and I'm exploring offloading that to trusty XFCE. So XFCE+EXWM as WM. The feature I'm after is "simulation keys" and it does what it says on the tin (for X applications at least; I need workarounds for Wine GUIs). With it it is possible to build layers of customized shortcuts on top of your favorite GUI application. You have the power of other facilities like hydras too, provided the bound functions can locate the alien window you're managing; I am working on controlling an important Wine application with xdotool keystrokes, which get called from elisp, triggered by hydras.
In the passus about philosophy you mixed up the classical and marxist dialectic when you claim to use the original sense and then talk about thesis - antithesis -synthesis, which is marxism. For Plato, the dialectic was a teaching tool, for Marx it was the mind poisoning tool: accept contradiction (call it synthesis), which is to abandon logic, or a suicide of the mind.
Σ’ευχαριστώ! Αν θες κάτι σχετικά με το Emacs στείλε μου email και θα προσπαθήσω να σε βοηθήσω (μερικές φορές δε παίρνω ειδοποίηση για τα μηνύματα εδώ πέρα).
Let's be real... this channel is pretty awesome!
Mount Athos monk explains Emacs and Unix philosophy from his cell in Karyes. Doksa soi o Kyrios, Orthodoxy enters the Information era!
I love it when ideas are presented like logical ends. It shows that you're already walking a path towards them.
Love this. Consistent user experience is the first benefit. Then too, interactivity (like show search results while typing) and self-documentation.
Thanks! I have produced a lot of videos on Emacs which showcase its potential. If you want to watch an hour-long presentation about "switching to Emacs", then here I have it: th-cam.com/video/FLjbKuoBlXs/w-d-xo.html
Came here from Sacha Chua's blog and just wanted to say thanks for sharing your thoughts. Though I am an old *NIX and Emacs user, this indeed left me with some thoughts to ponder. And welcome to Emacs!
PS. That is a splendid beard you've got there!
Thank you! I am happy to be part of this community (Emacs and free software at-large). I am always learning new things, most of which have a tangible benefit in my daily life.
I have never felt so heard haha. You described my free software journey to a T
I guess there are more people who went through the same experiences. You may also be interested in my most recent live stream about the Emacs VS Unix topic: th-cam.com/video/FmOYj0SyKfg/w-d-xo.html
Hello, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic. Your blog / book are among the best resources I've found so far!
I have currently a configuration quite similar to the one of your dotfiles, meaning without emacs, and with multiple programs more or less nicely integrated. I could be great if you could demonstrate your old workflow with BSPWM+{...} and your new one with emacs :)
One more time, nice job here!
Good idea! I would like to do something along those lines at some future point. It would be unfair to my Emacs config right now. You see, I tweaked the BSPWM session over the course of an extended period of time. Whereas my Emacs experience is only ~1.5 month long. There still are many areas that need to be optimised.
That granted, compare the relative complexity of my dotfiles to the simplicity of my dotemacs. The latter practically is a single file with some elisp code and extensive inline documentation. While the former is a combination of multiple different paradigms. Some highlights:
* Vim has its own config language.
* Tmux has another.
* So does bspwm.
* Same for sxhkd, xterm (Xresources) etc.
* You need to learn how to use GNU stow, to conveniently deploy the dotfiles.
Emacs seems like a daunting challenge because it imposes a different workflow to the standard CLI-centric approach (otherwise, I would argue, it is not used to its potential). But once you get over the first week or so, you start appreciating the things it does.
Yes, Emacs is kind of the antithesis to "Unix Philosophy". It's more like the last surviving representative of Lisp machines. But that is OK. I love Unix and its philosophy and I love Emacs, and I don't see any contradiction there. I think the different philosophies are complementing each other well, especially if you want to have a consistent user experience (which is not one of the Unix main goals btw).
ICE: Integrated Computing Environment. I like it. Cooler and more general than IDE.
Realy great videos, the best out there in this topic and very good explained. Everything you explained has a deep sense and is grounded on a plausible philosophy - which i like alot! So keep it up and coming - very informative, thank you for that!
Thank you for the kind words! Much appreciated.
I mean emacs can be viewed as just a lisp interpreter with a fancy set of gui libraries, so individual lisp programs can in fact be doing one thing, and one thing well, but with integration not possible in programs that live in different processes.
EDIT: I commented too early, you went over this haha
Very helpful after two to three years with vim sensing the limits as a project tool for R (cran R) programming (the only language, I know as an economist).
And a very intelligent talk from a beautiful mind. That mind is that of a philosopher and a researcher of thought and logic, lacking the troublesome research of data. If the object is truth, data and subject research are pillars along with thought and logic.
Please allow comments on your website.
Thank you! As for allowing comments on my website, there are technical reasons why I am not doing it: it is yet another database I need to manage which requires either third-party tools (all of them non-free as far as I can tell) or to make the implementation of the site far more complex (like how the typical WordPress blog does it, which opens the sluice gate to a tsunami of spam). Overall, I think it is not worth the trouble.
@@protesilaos fair enough
This amazing video, made me subscribe to you and use emacs! You really know what you are talking about!
Thanks for watching!
Could you share a link to your wallpaper? I really like it!
And I agree with your view.
This is the wallpaper: unsplash.com/photos/sfgH9dXcMRw
Unsplash offers their content under a permissive license.
Hi, I really like your videos. Have you evaluated the possibility of using EXWM, to also integrate window handling into EMACS?
@jotix _ I like the idea of EXWM but have not yet tested it. This will probably happen in the coming weeks or months. Currently I am in a BSPWM session (my switch to Xfce was short lived because I discovered how to enable the Hyper key). Configs here: gitlab.com/protesilaos/dotfiles
That granted, my sole concern is that we may be creating a single point of failure. What happens if, for whatever reason, Emacs crashes while I am uploading a video here? Does the whole desktop session come down as well? I honestly do not know and would not like to pass any judgement before actually using it full time.
Do you use EXWM? If so, what do you think about it?
Grate videos Protesilos! I want tu ask you about distros, so you running only Debian? Do you try run some other distro, like Fedora or one that was edored by FSF?
I am currently using Arch. Debian and Arch are the two distros I have used the most. Also spent a few months with Void.
There is a tool for uploading youtube videos from the terminal. I think it might be called youtube-uploader or something like that. I don't know if you can set the tags and thumbnails and things like that though.
I never understood what philosophy meant and always wondered what the use of that. I still don't understand what it means but at-least now i know it helps some people to articulate emacs core ideas. That cool
I think that a good generalisation of philosophy is that it is an activity that seeks to clarify concepts. Its intent is to look at the big picture of the ideas involved, in an attempt to discern patterns and connections. Then try to make sense of those.
It means "a love of wisdom".
Evidently from the other replies to your comment, you're not the only one to be confused by the phrase "Unix philosophy". This is a particular English use of the word "philosophy" that is not the same as what it usually refers to, i.e. what philosophers do. The meaning of the word "philosophy" here is closer to the word "approach", "attitude" or "paradigm".
The "Unix philosophy" is an approach to programming that creates programs to work well together in the Unix OS. For example, each program should do just one thing and do it well. Small and simple programs are especially designed to fit together with other Unix programs in more complex applications like Lego building blocks.
Emacs has often been criticised for going against the Unix philosophy in many ways. Objections have been raised against *systemd* in the Linux kernel for similar reasons. This video doesn't defend Emacs against serious criticisms. There is a good Wikipedia page about the Unix philosophy that is much more informative and accurate.
@@protesilaos Sorry to comment on such an old post; it says here that it's a year old, but the TH-cam recommendation of this video said it's from 3 months ago. Regardless, I always find it interesting when people try to find a place for philosophy in the present world, now that its domain has largely been superseded by science and its insights and methods are part of every rational field of inquiry. Leading experts in every field already use the rational methods developed historically in the philosophical tradition, to clarify concepts, look at the big picture, and discern patterns and connections. What role do you think philosophers should have in clarifying concepts, big picture thinking and discening patterns and connections that isn't already being done by scientists, leading experts, and non-expert commentary such as good journalism?
@@trondknudsen6689 Good question! I will answer later today. Do you mind if I also publish the reply on my website? I will quote your question, but remove any identifying information. This is so that I can share it with others who may ask the same.
Some ppl use Emacs almost as an entirely OS. With a proper config and dedication you can achieve almost everything just inside Emacs, without needing other applications.
Btw nice background!
Also after finishing my WM setup the way I wanted, I tried something different and tried a DE for the sake of something new. Then now I setup a minimal Plasma install, and it is very lightweight without any KDE application, just using my old terminal apps.
I already do most of my computing inside Emacs (will soon add email, then try out TRAMP). And this with a fairly conservative ("simple") config.
Plasma is a great choice, indeed. The main KDE apps are quite powerful, but I guess it depends on what your needs are.
As for the background, here is the link: unsplash.com/photos/sfgH9dXcMRw
Thanks for your videos! For an emacsy experience, in terms of basic keybindings, outside of emacs, and without using EXWM (which is great nonetheless), I strongly suggest xkeysnail! You basically have EXWM's ``simulation keys'' without using EXWM.
Thanks! Was not aware of this. Will check it out.
Ok, I got it. Let's don't be fanatics, Unix way is a dogma, emacs ftw. Sounds similar, hm...
P.S. fyi, Unix way is just agreement, concept and idea, but you only see fanatics, yet can't see bloated, sluggish outdated... dessisions.
Subtitle: "Why people who use Emacs aren't Unix traitors!".
PS. I'd like to correct the subtitles. Unfortunately that TH-cam feature has been disabled.
Obvious next step: EXWM?
I am ambivalent on this: (1) I like the idea and it is consistent with the "Emacs mindset", and (2) I need to consider this further, because I read that Emacs runs on a single thread and, basically, if one thing freezes, the entire environment freezes as well.
Concerning point 2, I have not researched the matter. This is just the first impression I got. Perhaps you have first hand experience and can point me to some good sources?
@@protesilaos I hope I will have some insight, as it may be a good fit for a long-standing, larger plan (involving capturing keystrokes for later redirection to applications) that could build upon its ability to use different input methods, but considering how much it's taken me to achieve my current level of emacs permeability, I doubt I will get there soon.
I'd like to mention in passing that your discourse and fresh outlook have been inspiring, both in videos and prose.
Thank you! That sounds promising, but also too ambitious for me right now. I prefer to introduce one change at a time, practice it a bit, then repeat.
@@protesilaos I am an EXWM convert now! The tray handling is buggy and I'm exploring offloading that to trusty XFCE. So XFCE+EXWM as WM.
The feature I'm after is "simulation keys" and it does what it says on the tin (for X applications at least; I need workarounds for Wine GUIs). With it it is possible to build layers of customized shortcuts on top of your favorite GUI application. You have the power of other facilities like hydras too, provided the bound functions can locate the alien window you're managing; I am working on controlling an important Wine application with xdotool keystrokes, which get called from elisp, triggered by hydras.
emacs -Q still more powerful than nvim with astro config.
In the passus about philosophy you mixed up the classical and marxist dialectic when you claim to use the original sense and then talk about thesis - antithesis -synthesis, which is marxism. For Plato, the dialectic was a teaching tool, for Marx it was the mind poisoning tool: accept contradiction (call it synthesis), which is to abandon logic, or a suicide of the mind.
How to watch porn in emacs??
φιλε να ξερεις εισαι ειδωλο για μενα :))
Σ’ευχαριστώ! Αν θες κάτι σχετικά με το Emacs στείλε μου email και θα προσπαθήσω να σε βοηθήσω (μερικές φορές δε παίρνω ειδοποίηση για τα μηνύματα εδώ πέρα).
@@protesilaos ok!!!!!!!!!!!!!
can you try vscode?
VSCode (or anything else for that matter) is not on my radar right now. I plan on using Emacs full-time for the foreseeable future.
@@rennessaince357 why not? ;)
@@jodazague8333 it sucks and is electron garbage