'We have an unofficial death penalty': Peter Hitchens on the purpose of forgiveness | SpectatorTV
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 มิ.ย. 2024
- Douglas Murray has written on the topic of forgiveness in The Spectator's special Easter issue this week. He says that in our increasingly online world, we have forgotten how to forgive. Peter Hitchens and Tim Stanley discuss.
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There is the case of people like Winston Marshall...castigated, abused and threatened because he found Andy Ngo's book interesting. He apologised but still got sacked from his band and was not forgiven. It is a section of "polite" society, that section that controls so much of public discourse these days, that demands apologies and even if given, still won't forgive and will continue to punish. This is why others say never apologise to the woke mob because they will still not forgive you.
Yes. Classic case of 'apologising', not for anything done wrong, but to satiate the mob. The mob takes it as an admission of wrongdoing and doubles down. That's the mistake. It's different from apologising for an error. The presenter confuses two different things.
@@b.alexanderjohnstone9774 It's a shame none of them addressed that in this conversation.
@@Rhubba - Winston was on Dave Rubin's podcast that dropped over Easter weekend and specifically explained why he voluntarily separated from Mumford & Son. He wasn't sacked.
The lefty woke can be as vicious as the righties. and as stupid.
Outstanding and remarkable work exposing the truth Peter Hitchens and Tim Stanley and Douglas Murray.! 💯 God bless you! 💯✝️🕊🙏❤️🇮🇱
Cross next to israeli flag? jews believe jesus is burning in hot shit
I like this Tim Stanley guy, he and Peter interview well alongside each other.
Thanks for the video guys.
What a wonderful conversation.
To show leniency towards the criminal is to punish their victim and future victims.
On a personal level forgiveness can be offered but on a state level it is criminal in and of itself to forgive crime.
As we see playing out within our legal system now. Judges should be held responsible for future offenses of those they let off lightly, might focus their minds a bit.
Time after time we hear about criminals who reoffend after being paroled early. Many victims have died as a result.
@@leonardgibney2997In many cases, they have been released early because our prisons are full to bursting point.
If we want law and order, we must cough up the money for them.
The injunction against apologising to online mobs applies when you haven't done wrong. The mistake is in think it'll satisfy bad faith actors.
If forgiveness is taken to be "excusing" (i.e., "It's alright, you didn't mean it, I don't mind"), which true forgiveness cannot be (if nothing objectively wrong/evil was done, then let's not waste time talking about "forgiveness"), or if forgiveness is taken to be strictly a reward for contrition ("I can't forgive until you say 'sorry'"), then the person who's been wronged, and wounded, and abused, and violated, and whose offender has no intention of any "sorries," has no hope of personal, inner release from the weight and bitterness of resentment and frustrated expectation of reparation, ever. This is why real forgiveness, which, to use the words I just heard in this video, is an "intensely private" motion of the soul, is indeed something to be done, and done with a sacred intention, even when the offender will never be repentant or in any way seek reconciliation. It is done first for the forgiver's own deliverance, his liberation from the power of the evil done to him. It is both a "Guilty!" verdict (because, after all, we only forgive wrongs) and a declaration of release ("You owe me nothing for the evil you did; I'm swallowing and eliminating it, killing it myself IN myself, so that it's gone, whether you like it or not"). The forgiver is free. As is the offender of the forgiver's wrath or expectation of recompense. Now, the offender may not care. The offender may hope for new opportunities to do the forgiver harm. And the forgiver is perfectly entitled to take every necessary measure to see to it that does not happen ("deterrence"). But the forgiver is FREE, that's the main thing. Free to move on, ahead, in the spaciousness and lightness of wholeness. And that is why, 1) forgiveness is no kind of naive repudiation of either self-defence or deterrence, and, 2) forgiveness does not require contrition. I can forgive, say, the man who attempted to kill me and in the attempt left me horribly incapacitated, maimed, for life. But that man must never be allowed to repeat his crime. Society's well-being demands it. If it means putting him away even for life, then so be it. It doesn't matter whether his imprisonment "deters" other from doing the same. It will deter THAT MAN from ever repeating his malignant behaviors out there among decent society, and that's enough.
Peter’s sonorous tone is impressively unique - bass + subtle whistle!
Oh my ...women
Plummy baritone ❤
Gross indeed.
Keeping your heart pure ...
Great conversation
Best Regards.
We shall see how forgiving the Scots police are with the new hate crime law.I expect forgiveness will only be given to certain schools of thought.
After watching Boris lie should we ask anyone to repent anything given how low standards have become the higher the public office. This debate on forgiveness in the light of the Post Office miscarriagevof justice is positively criminslly insane.
The new paradigm doesnt need forgiveness bc its perfect. Thst is why it cannot tolerate past sins, bc if it does not rid itself of all sins it will need forgiveness and that will not be perfection. The reality of Winston Smith holding an instance of imperfection in his hand before dispatching it to the furnace hole is now very much upon us. Soon all trace of empire will be gone. We will never have had an empire and anyone suggesting we did will be arrested for hate speech.
I understand my own failings and use that understanding to correct or act as I see fit to challenge those failings. I try to understand others and find ways of moving past any wrong done to me or others. Forgiveness does not enter into it. It’s a religious doctrine that has more in common with the laying on hands and a prayer for someone with cancer. If the chemotherapy works , the religious can say it was the prayer that did it. Forgiveness is a similar tool . Understanding is the key.
Forgiving someone for Murder is the most IMMORAL act of all! It does not resurrect the victim, it does not redeem the murderer and it does not compensate the grieving loved ones. It does nothing but amplify suffering.
Forgiveness for everything else may be acceptable under the right circumstances.
How about capital punishment with forgiveness?
Many saints have forgiven their executioners, as did Christ, who said: "Forgive them, for they know not what they do."
The people who do this - or claim to - are motivated by selfish reasons. They think that by "forgiving" someone who killed their family will somehow make THEM feel better. Evil is evil and must never be forgiven.
@@goodyeoman4534 The selfish path would be retribution. Forgiveness is for the soul.
@@Srekwah True. But I think people misunderstand it, especially in the Christian context. You aren't obligated to forgive someone, and you don't get extra points for doing so. It's perfectly okay to be a good person while despising a person who has committed evil.
Is it beyond everyone's notice that we have a month celebrating our pride every year? Pride in engaging in unregenerative sex?
Or that today on Easter Sunday, the streets of London public decorations are celebrating Eid and not Easter?
We wouldn't be doing these thing as a society, not even objecting, if we believed or even understood the Christian message.
Voting for a Muslim mayor, you get Islam.
Okay
Mr Hitchens I seen you in Oxford you cycled past me I was laying slabs
Such an excellent discussion that has crystallised why (after over 80 years) I am not a Christian in faith, quite apart from finding God an unbelievable entity. I could not love my enemies. But I appreciate the traditions of morality which Christianity has brought to our country.
Loving our enemies is to refrain from wishing them harm or harming them.
We don't have to go so far as to like them !
If you put your faith in state and governments and kings and queens then your rights can be taken away but if we put our faith in God then our rights are retained because God never changes and never lies
We should refer to him as Peter the Great ❤ one of the two most brilliant men in Britain (the other being Douglas) 🇬🇧
I find it effective to attribute blame elsewhere but take full responsibility when apologising. ;-)
There isn’t an unofficial Death Penalty. Police shootings and suicide in Jail are nothing to do with a Death Penalty.
The official Death Penalty was Capital punishment for committing Murder, and we all knew where we were then.
The Murderer understood with great horror, from the moment the Judge had the Black Cap placed on his wig, the victims family may have derived an element of satisfaction from the judgement, the Hangman performed his grim task with efficiency, as tasked by the State. Sometimes the Prisoner repented before the Hangman entered his cell, and on other occasions protested his innocence up to the moment the bolt was withdrawn. Repenting made no difference to what was about to happen, and was probably fairly pointless.
Saying sorry under duress slips off the tongue with ease.
Abortion is a death sentence.
This was an unexpectedly shallow conversation.
What people dont realise is that death has MANY different faces!!
People look at CLINICAL death, not at the death of morals, death of friendship, financial death ( Taxed þo death ), death of freedom of speech, restriction of freedom of movement.
The Chiristian faith is dying!! Forgivness ebbs away when this happens.
We all live through our own death penalties.
When politicians cancelled capital punishment they imposed the duty on police officers, no doubt finding
the cop-out of their responsibilities and the convenience of placing officers in the dock more congenial
to their collective conscience.
In his interview of Netanyahu should Douglas Murray be forgiven for not asking why he marched in the mock funeral of Rabin; why he raised a map prior to Oct 7 while stating Israel's ambitions in the words "from the river to the sea"; or justifying from his own perspective at least all that has happened to the Palestinians on the basis that 'No one likes them'.
Are there conditions upon which forgivemess is contingent ?
Murray writing about forgiveness is appropriate.
Re. PH's comment about the unofficial death penalty, who exactly are these people that he claims the police go around shooting dead?
People shot by armed police.
What is peter talking about when he said " we have an unofficial death penalty" ? something other that death by cop
Abortion.
It's just one of his things he says to wind people up. We obviously don't have the death penalty. And abortion - while sickening and IMO evil - is also not the death penalty.
@@goodyeoman4534 It is to the unborn
I wonder is Hitchens asked Alex O'Connor for forgiveness for behaving terribly on his podcast
That was an uncomfortable podcast to watch, wasn't it... I respect O'Conner and know there's a lot of support for him (on his YT channel) but on reflection, I couldn't help agreeing with Hitchens. Perhaps it's because I'm of Hitchen's generation, but I found O'Conner's ideological stance on drugs et al both predictable and irritating, as was his interviewing style, continually worrying away at the same point without moving the conversation forward... I would be very disappointed if Peter Hitchens apologised to O'Conner.
@@FFS704 Peter Hitchens biggest mistake was agreeing to go on the show to begin with. O'Conner is windsock with an agenda.
So peter is asked to give his precious time to someone and does so,then decides their wasting his time and leaves. Where's the problem? Why is he compelled to stay somewhere doing something he isn't enjoying,with someone he doesn't like for something he isn't being paid for ??
The bit in the Bible which converted me to Humanism, from Christianity was Romans 12;20, But too much else depends on the believers' interpretation of men's attempts to explain the world. Some good, many not. I hope one current religion will reform soon...
Humanism is death
The gospels demonstrate a very clear difference between "sorry" and repentance. Repentance is a conscious decision to turn from evil and practice good. It might be accompanied by emotion and regret but this is largely irrelevant. Feelings, schmeelings. Either repent or don't. Repent means to turn away from your sin and turn to God. Stop doing it your way and do it His way. It is very difficult for people to understand this, perhaps due to good people like these two fellows using improper language to describe the principle.
Judas was filled with remorse (sorry) and was condemned. Like a child throwing a tantrum, remorse cannot fix anything, cannot make amends and cannot bring you into a place of forgiveness or reconciliation with God.
When god talks to me il believe in him. People find it hard to believe in something u never see, feel, or touch. No intelligent creature can believe in a mythology one.
Tips fedora 🎩
He has spoken, but ignoring him doesn't make him disappear. This would be like a child that says, because I cant see you, you cant see me.
Seek and you will find.
Burying your head, you will only find darkness.
Newton?
God has spoken in His Word and in Jesus Christ His Son
I’ve noticed that Atheists lack manners!
An essential topic in a culture of widespread VICTIM Culture
God can afford to forgive all the time, because he has unlimited power and resources. If there is a member of your family who behaves abusively and injuriously to others habitually, you do not have the power or resources to forgive him, so must shun him and exclude him in order to protect others; or protect yourself. The "forgiveness of sins" is God's prerogative. We have to protect others and ourselves against evil and harm. Contrition is a prerequisite in any case.
Who is that chatterbox sitting by Peter? I’m not here to listen to him!
Tim Stanley.
Too much beak
Nice chat. Forging seems to trump cancel culture, eh?
Every time I see Hitchens, I can guarantee that he will always interrupt and talk over others.
The Person most offended is God. When we sin in any way - seriously or in a way we feel is less serious - God is the one we offend and we need to confess and get His forgiveness.
God hates sin - even the lie! Every sin is serious to God. God says the wages of sin is death. That means eternal death under His just punishment.
Yes we are to forgive but law has its correct place to punish offenders to keep society safe.
Gid put government in place for that reason.
But ultimately it is forgiveness from God that is of final importance.
People pay no attention to God any more and are constantly breaking His Holy Laws. K
Invoking a God and his so called dictums undermines the true nature of forgiveness. It is for the individual without recourse to a God that is the true forgiver.
Hypocrisy at its finest
Christianity says that women are in charge, do not question their lies, give the church more money than any business will ever see, God agrees that taxes are theft, the homeless can sleep in their own damn graveyard.
Does it? That's not the impression I got.
Citation please…..
If you are on the Right Tim then your choice of Scottish football team is all wrong mate.
Jesus said forgive them because they know not what they are doing .... they weren't sorry but he forgave anyway and asked his father to do the same.
Douglas Murray is the right guy to talk about forgiveness 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂Absolutely ridiculous
You must be such a delight at cocktail parties.
@@arikkatzenberg4498 I doubt @lo-lo-lo has ever been invited to a cocktail party
Police shooting people isn't the same thing as the death penalty. Not sure what Hitchens is trying to achieve here. By all means, criticise the police for their corruption, incompetence and bias, but don't call something what it is not.
Ever heard of 'extrajudicial'?
@@AethelwulfOfNordHymbraLand2333 yes, dear, I have. But extrajudicial killings and the death penalty are two different things duh.
forgiveness gives them permission to do it again, imo
Anybody invoking the Bible loses my interest at that point. These are particularly tedious run-of-the-mill thinkers - goodbye!
Why does it irritate you? I'm not religious but enjoy Bible passages. I don't even mind the odd Quaran verse even though I dislike that religion.
Well, you've ruled out the large majority of the best thinkers of all time then.... the sanctimony of your comment reveals the true 'run-of-the-mill' thinker in the room...
@@FitziCal I always think that. Seems so obvious but is never mentioned. Weren't all the Old Masters also religious? Which kind of undermines the "liberal atheists are smarter" myth.
The wrong brother died !
Okay